Hello,
When I bought this condo a year ago it had a brand new kitchen
cabinets. However, some time ago I noticed small cracks between joints.
Also, cabinet doors seem not to be aligned properly (as if the wood was
bended a little). This was not happening a year ago. These cabinets are
top-notch and (supposedly) of high quality. Here are some pictures:
http://lukaszanddaria.homedns.org/1.jpg
http://lukaszanddaria.homedns.org/2.jpg
http://lukaszanddaria.homedns.org/3.jpg
Did this happen because of dry/hot air? Is there anything that I can do
to prevent any further damage or fix existing conditions?
These pics were taken a year ago (you won't see much details):
http://lukaszanddaria.homedns.org/1.jpg
http://lukaszanddaria.homedns.org/2.jpg
Thanks,
Lukasz
[email protected] wrote:
...
> These cabinets are
> top-notch and (supposedly) of high quality. Here are some pictures:
>
I hate to rain on your parade, but these look like pretty shoddy work.
Mitered rails and stiles? On a quality scale of 1 to 10, they look
like about a 2. And that's what I would have said if there WEREN'T
gaping cracks.
Judging by the workmanship, the door panels are probably glued into the
frames. As the humidity changes throughout the year the panel can
expand and, unless it floats within the frame, can force the joints
apart. You can check if the panels are floating by simply sliding them
with your hand. If they are done correctly, you should be able to
slide the panels up/down/left/right a little bit inside the frame.
If the panels ARE floating, you can probably fix this. Depending if
you have any talent or experience with woodworking, you could drill a
hole in the side of the door perpendicular to the mitered joint and
using a screw to pull the pieces back together. There are ways to do
this such that you can disguise the screw hole when you're done.
Sorry. I hope you didn't pay a lot for them.
>Sorry. I hope you didn't pay a lot for them.
Well, I paid a lot for the whole apartment and the custom kitchen was
factored into the cost. I guess, I don't have to replace everything,
just cabinet doors in the worst case, correct? Do you know how much
would it cost to order a custom (good/high quality) doors a piece? I
hope that they could be made to match the existing texture/color of the
shelves.
Mike Marlow wrote:
> "Jerzy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > >Sorry. I hope you didn't pay a lot for them.
> >
> > Well, I paid a lot for the whole apartment and the custom kitchen was
> > factored into the cost. I guess, I don't have to replace everything,
> > just cabinet doors in the worst case, correct? Do you know how much
> > would it cost to order a custom (good/high quality) doors a piece? I
> > hope that they could be made to match the existing texture/color of the
> > shelves.
> >
>
> If these cabinets are only a year or two old, why not approach the
> manufacturer? Or the company you bought the unit from? If you bought an
> upgrade that was supposed to be "high end" (whatever that means - no
> particular insult pointed at your cabinets), then there should be a warranty
> behind them. Hell, even the basic stuff probably has some sort of warranty
> behind it. Joinery coming apart would certainly fall into a defect in
> materials and workmanship in my opinion. You never know until you try...
You're right about that - it can't hurt to ask, but it is as I expect,
a local carpenter, can't say cabinetmaker, built those as per the
previous owner's instructions with mitered corners, who is at fault?
The owner probably didn't know any better and there wasn't anything
concealed from the buyer.
The thing that I just noticed is that the OP mentioned in an earlier
post that he bought the unit a year ago and also included some pictures
from a year ago. Those pictures show the gaps in the miters. Hmmm.
These things don't happen over night, so I wonder exactly how old those
cabinets are and when the gaps became objectionable.
R
The work looks a nicer when you see the whole kitchen, not just the
close-ups of the corners.
I know you can order custom maple doors from
http://www.hardwoodstore.com. The price is pretty reasonable,
especially for flat panel doors like yours, but you'll have to find
someone who can match the finish for you.
Good luck.
Jerzy wrote:
> >Sorry. I hope you didn't pay a lot for them.
>
> Well, I paid a lot for the whole apartment and the custom kitchen was
> factored into the cost. I guess, I don't have to replace everything,
> just cabinet doors in the worst case, correct? Do you know how much
> would it cost to order a custom (good/high quality) doors a piece? I
> hope that they could be made to match the existing texture/color of the
> shelves.
> When the wood shrinks a mitered joint will open on the inside. That is
> exactly what you have got.
So what's the underlying mechanism for the joint opening up only on the
inside? Is it that the width of the rails and stiles shrinks more than
the length and, therefore, the miter angle changes from a perfect 45
to, say, 46 degrees?
Josh
John Grossbohlin wrote:
> "RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
>
> > The thing that I just noticed is that the OP mentioned in an earlier
> > post that he bought the unit a year ago and also included some pictures
> > from a year ago. Those pictures show the gaps in the miters. Hmmm.
> > These things don't happen over night, so I wonder exactly how old those
> > cabinets are and when the gaps became objectionable.
>
> Judging by the names of the files I believe he posted the same photos for
> the before shots as he did for the after shots...
I was going by what he wrote, not the file names. Read it again and
you'll see what I mean.
R
John Grossbohlin wrote:
> "RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > John Grossbohlin wrote:
> >> "RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> news:[email protected]...
> >> >
> >>
> >> > The thing that I just noticed is that the OP mentioned in an earlier
> >> > post that he bought the unit a year ago and also included some pictures
> >> > from a year ago. Those pictures show the gaps in the miters. Hmmm.
> >> > These things don't happen over night, so I wonder exactly how old those
> >> > cabinets are and when the gaps became objectionable.
> >>
> >> Judging by the names of the files I believe he posted the same photos for
> >> the before shots as he did for the after shots...
> >
> > I was going by what he wrote, not the file names. Read it again and
> > you'll see what I mean.
>
> I understood your message was based on what was written but because the year
> earlier photos weren't--they were the current ones again--it gave you bad
> information to work with. I see that the OP noted the link error in another
> message
Here's his later post where he corrected the links:
>These pics were taken a year ago (you won't see much details):
>http://lukaszanddaria.homedns.org/1.jpg
>http://lukaszanddaria.homedns.org/2.jpg
I posted incorrect links. Here is the whole thing (photo taken a year
ago):
http://lukaszanddaria.homedns.org/k1.jpg
http://lukaszanddaria.homedns.org/k2.jpg
If you read his original post he says he _bought_ the place a year ago.
Well, if the corrected links are from a year ago, and he bought the
place a year ago, and the gaps in the miters are visible back them,
well, something is odd here, and only the OP can straighten it out.
R
John Grossbohlin wrote:
> "RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > John Grossbohlin wrote:
> >> "RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> news:[email protected]...
> >> >
> >>
> >> > The thing that I just noticed is that the OP mentioned in an earlier
> >> > post that he bought the unit a year ago and also included some pictures
> >> > from a year ago. Those pictures show the gaps in the miters. Hmmm.
> >> > These things don't happen over night, so I wonder exactly how old those
> >> > cabinets are and when the gaps became objectionable.
> >>
> >> Judging by the names of the files I believe he posted the same photos for
> >> the before shots as he did for the after shots...
> >
> > I was going by what he wrote, not the file names. Read it again and
> > you'll see what I mean.
>
> I understood your message was based on what was written but because the year
> earlier photos weren't--they were the current ones again--it gave you bad
> information to work with. I see that the OP noted the link error in another
> message
I'm not going by the earlier photos, John. I'm going by the corrected
ones and what he wrote. Now assuming the OP can differentiate the
years, something doesn't add up. You can't straighten it out, as you
have no more information than I do. Only the OP can clarify the
situation.
BTW, somebody else mentioned the odd location of the pulls. It really
is weird, right on the edge of that bevel.
R
John Grossbohlin wrote:
> "RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
>
> > If you read his original post he says he _bought_ the place a year ago.
> > Well, if the corrected links are from a year ago, and he bought the
> > place a year ago, and the gaps in the miters are visible back them,
> > well, something is odd here, and only the OP can straighten it out.
>
> We're saying basically the same thing...
>
> I pulled the corrected link photos into Photoshop and the open miters don't
> appear to be there but the left and middle upper cabinet doors aren't
> aligned across the bottom. On that count there doesn't appear to be a change
> over time.
I didn't import it, I just clicked on the picture and it bumped up to
its native resolution. At that size you can see stuff.
Check out the miter on the cabinet base door on the lower left.
http://lukaszanddaria.homedns.org/k1.jpg
I definitely see a gap in the miter on that one.
And on this one:
http://lukaszanddaria.homedns.org/k2.jpg
there's a gap on the base cabinet inn the lower left, second one in.
I guess that's one of the benefits of him posting those big ass
pictures. ;)
R
>Here's his later post where he corrected the links
Correct. I bought the unit a year ago and these photos were taken at
that time:
http://lukaszanddaria.homedns.org/k1.jpg
http://lukaszanddaria.homedns.org/k2.jpg
It could be that gaps were visible but definitely joints weren't going
apart.
Again, here are the new photos:
http://lukaszanddaria.homedns.org/1.jpg
http://lukaszanddaria.homedns.org/2.jpg
OK, thanks everyone for responding. I really appreciate your comments
and suggestions.I will try to approach the seller for a warranty since
he had renovated the kitchen before I bought the appartment.
Apart from joints coming apart, the doors don't shut properly (as if
the wood was bended somehow) - there is a gap in the lower part, while
the upper part seems to be aligned correctly. Here is a picture which
shows that:
http://lukaszanddaria.homedns.org/k3.jpg
(not the best picture but it should give you an idea)
Lukasz
Jerzy wrote:
> OK, thanks everyone for responding. I really appreciate your comments
> and suggestions.I will try to approach the seller for a warranty since
> he had renovated the kitchen before I bought the appartment.
>
> Apart from joints coming apart, the doors don't shut properly (as if
> the wood was bended somehow) - there is a gap in the lower part, while
> the upper part seems to be aligned correctly. Here is a picture which
> shows that:
>
> http://lukaszanddaria.homedns.org/k3.jpg
>
> (not the best picture but it should give you an idea)
Where did you get the idea that an owner warranties a house he's sold?
If it was a latent and concealed condition, not picked up during the
inspection (you did have it inspected, didn't you?), and the owner
knowingly concealed that information, then you'd have a case. But this
was a readily visible problem, so you don't.
If the refrigerator had died, the sink started rusting through, or
something similar, would you expect the previous owner to pay to fix
it? There are new home warranties, but used homes don't have one
unless you pay for it. I'm assuming you didn't or you wouldn't be
looking to the previous owner.
As others here have pointed out, your cabinets were doomed from the
start due to their construction. A good home inspector would have
noticed those gaps and pointed out the problem. The gaps are clearly
visible in the pictures from a year ago, so it would have been pretty
hard for the inspector to miss the gaps seeing them in person. So
either your home inspector wasn't very good, or you didn't get an
inspection.
In any event, you have just bought yourself a learning experience. You
can try shaking a tree to see if anything will fall, but you really
don't have a case. My advice would be to start investigating the cost
to replace the cabinet doors. You'll need to have that
information/estimate even if someone does, miraculously, decide that
they owe you something.
Here's a link to give you some idea of a cabinet door cost. make sure
that you factor in delivery, and finishing.
http://www.woodtradition.com/catalog/item/1575776/1044243.htm
Other manufacturers sell prefinished doors which is probably a better
way to go. They'll send you finish samples upon request.
Another thing I just noticed in this picture:
http://lukaszanddaria.homedns.org/k2.jpg
See those big filler strips where the cabinets turn the 45 degree
corner? I don't think the cabinets were custom made, so much as site
built on standard boxes. Those are awfully large filler strips and
entirely avoidable with custom cabinets. If the space behind those
filler strips is inaccessible, the cabinets were definitely not custom
made.
R
>Where did you get the idea that an owner warranties a house he's sold?
Not the owner, but the manufacturer if there is still a warranty. Prior
to selling me the apartment he renovated the whole kitchen, and yes the
place was inspected. As I said, at that time joints weren't falling
apart and the wood was not bended (all doors shut properly). As someone
already pointed out it is the manufacturer's fault.
>See those big filler strips where the cabinets turn the 45 degree corner?
No, I don't know what you mean.
Jerzy wrote:
> >Where did you get the idea that an owner warranties a house he's sold?
>
> Not the owner, but the manufacturer if there is still a warranty. Prior
> to selling me the apartment he renovated the whole kitchen, and yes the
> place was inspected. As I said, at that time joints weren't falling
> apart and the wood was not bended (all doors shut properly). As someone
> already pointed out it is the manufacturer's fault.
Manufacturer is a euphemism. They were built by a carpenter. If
you're saying that it's the builders fault, maybe yes, maybe no.
What's your opinion on the situation if the owner directed the
carpenter to build the cabinets fast and cheap? Is the carpenter still
responsible? It's not as cut and dried as you seem to think. I'm also
not sure why you would assume that the warranty is transferable, but
since I don't know where you are and what your state's laws are in that
respect I can't comment.
It's not a small job, nor expense, to replace all of the doors and
regardless of what your state's laws indicate, I doubt the original
carpenter will rollover willingly. I think you have an uphill battle
on your hands if you decide to sue, but it's your time and money.
> >See those big filler strips where the cabinets turn the 45 degree corner?
>
> No, I don't know what you mean.
Spaces between cabinet doors that are just blanked off - no access.
It's a sign of fudging to make standard sized cabinets fit. As
standard manufactured cabinets come in 3" increments, there's no reason
to have a filler piece larger than 1 1/2". You have filler strips that
are substantially larger than that.
As the buyer it's up to you to verify the quality and condition of what
you are buying. You noticed the gaps when you bought the place. Have
you ever seen cabinets anywhere else with gaps in the corners before?
They're very rare as most all kitchen cabinets are built correctly,
with tried and true methods, except for DIY cabinets. As far as the
inspection, if you didn't realize what those gaps indicated, your
inspector should have. A large manufacturer will have a warranty
policy in place and indicate whether it is transferrable or not. A
small time outfit, like the guy who built your cabinets, won't have any
such policy, will have no warranty reserve fund, and as far as he's
concerned you'll be a Johhny-come-lately trying to steal his profits.
I'm not trying to bust your chops, I'm just pointing out a few things.
You asked for professional opinions, and that's what you're getting.
I'm not a cheering section - I just call them as I see them.
R
On 9 Mar 2006 19:36:12 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
>Hello,
>
>When I bought this condo a year ago it had a brand new kitchen
>cabinets. However, some time ago I noticed small cracks between joints.
>Did this happen because of dry/hot air? Is there anything that I can do
>to prevent any further damage or fix existing conditions?
For some reason the wood has dried, cold dry winter maybe? Wood not
dry when constructed? These may close back up in the summer. I'd say
this is pretty normal for mitre joints.
You could also try to raise the relative humidity in your apartment.
If the joints close, douse them with wax, maybe a hot melted
carnuba/paint thinner mixture. Wax is supposed to be the best barrier
againt moisture changes. (From FWW article)
--------------------
Steve Jensen
Abbotsford B.C.
[email protected] chopping out the mortise.
BBS'ing since 1982 at 300 bps.
Surfing along at 19200 bps since 95.
WW'ing since 1985
LV Cust #4114
Nothing catchy to say, well maybe.....
WAKE UP - There are no GODs you fools!
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> ... brand new kitchen
> cabinets. ...small cracks between joints.
> ...doors .. not ... aligned ...
> ...dry/hot air? ...
> ... prevent ...or fix ...?
>
When the wood shrinks a mitered joint will open on the inside. That is
exactly what you have got. The fault (if there is any) might lie far back up
the chain with the timber merchants, or with the designer who doesn't
understand joinery, or with the architect who has made the atmosphere
unecessarily dry, or with the Building control officer.... but for sure it
will be the manufacturer who gets the grief and the blame, and indeed he
might have known better.
I see nothing in the photos to suggest shoddy work, although the style of
door is normally done with the cheapest foil-wrapped mouldings, and you have
solid maple which is a bit strange. It is nothing to do with loose or glued
panels - that is a total red herring. You stand no chance of closing the
joint with screws, that will only make a mess. The best thing you can do is
to obtain some special wood finishers filling wax colour matched to your
wood and rub it into the crack. It will make it invisible... but won't
prevent further movement (which you cannot do).
Tim W
"RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> You're right about that - it can't hurt to ask, but it is as I expect,
> a local carpenter, can't say cabinetmaker, built those as per the
> previous owner's instructions with mitered corners, who is at fault?
> The owner probably didn't know any better and there wasn't anything
> concealed from the buyer.
>
My bet - standard construction quality "upgrade". Came from some production
shop hidden somewhere in... well, who knows.
> The thing that I just noticed is that the OP mentioned in an earlier
> post that he bought the unit a year ago and also included some pictures
> from a year ago. Those pictures show the gaps in the miters. Hmmm.
> These things don't happen over night, so I wonder exactly how old those
> cabinets are and when the gaps became objectionable.
>
I'm also wondering if he bought it new or purchased it from an existing
owner. That would about kill any warranty claims... likely.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"Jerzy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >Sorry. I hope you didn't pay a lot for them.
>
> Well, I paid a lot for the whole apartment and the custom kitchen was
> factored into the cost. I guess, I don't have to replace everything,
> just cabinet doors in the worst case, correct? Do you know how much
> would it cost to order a custom (good/high quality) doors a piece? I
> hope that they could be made to match the existing texture/color of the
> shelves.
>
If these cabinets are only a year or two old, why not approach the
manufacturer? Or the company you bought the unit from? If you bought an
upgrade that was supposed to be "high end" (whatever that means - no
particular insult pointed at your cabinets), then there should be a warranty
behind them. Hell, even the basic stuff probably has some sort of warranty
behind it. Joinery coming apart would certainly fall into a defect in
materials and workmanship in my opinion. You never know until you try...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> John Grossbohlin wrote:
>> "RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> >
>>
>> > The thing that I just noticed is that the OP mentioned in an earlier
>> > post that he bought the unit a year ago and also included some pictures
>> > from a year ago. Those pictures show the gaps in the miters. Hmmm.
>> > These things don't happen over night, so I wonder exactly how old those
>> > cabinets are and when the gaps became objectionable.
>>
>> Judging by the names of the files I believe he posted the same photos for
>> the before shots as he did for the after shots...
>
> I was going by what he wrote, not the file names. Read it again and
> you'll see what I mean.
I understood your message was based on what was written but because the year
earlier photos weren't--they were the current ones again--it gave you bad
information to work with. I see that the OP noted the link error in another
message
John
RicodJour wrote:
> You're right about that - it can't hurt to ask, but it is as I expect,
> a local carpenter, can't say cabinetmaker, built those as per the
> previous owner's instructions with mitered corners, who is at fault?
Same idea but just judging from the unusual design - the reverse bevel
frames - I kinda suspect that they were designed by a designer (or
architect) who was enamoured with the effect of mitered frames and that
some poor, hapless shop built them according to specs.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
> So what's the underlying mechanism for the joint opening up only on the
> inside? Is it that the width of the rails and stiles shrinks more than
> the length and, therefore, the miter angle changes from a perfect 45
> to, say, 46 degrees?
Yes. Wood does not shrink in length only in width (not really none, but the
ratios of movement is something like 100:50:1 for parallel to the growth
rings:across the growth rings:along the grain).
Replace the doors. Better to look for stile-and-rail mortise joinery
in new doors. Plus, make sure all sides are finished equally. Kitchen
cabinets take a beating with steam and changes in heat/humidity.
On 9 Mar 2006 19:36:12 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
>Hello,
>
>When I bought this condo a year ago it had a brand new kitchen
>cabinets. However, some time ago I noticed small cracks between joints.
>Also, cabinet doors seem not to be aligned properly (as if the wood was
>bended a little). This was not happening a year ago. These cabinets are
>top-notch and (supposedly) of high quality. Here are some pictures:
>
>http://lukaszanddaria.homedns.org/1.jpg
>http://lukaszanddaria.homedns.org/2.jpg
>http://lukaszanddaria.homedns.org/3.jpg
>
>Did this happen because of dry/hot air? Is there anything that I can do
>to prevent any further damage or fix existing conditions?
>
>These pics were taken a year ago (you won't see much details):
>
>http://lukaszanddaria.homedns.org/1.jpg
>http://lukaszanddaria.homedns.org/2.jpg
>
>Thanks,
>Lukasz
"RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> The thing that I just noticed is that the OP mentioned in an earlier
> post that he bought the unit a year ago and also included some pictures
> from a year ago. Those pictures show the gaps in the miters. Hmmm.
> These things don't happen over night, so I wonder exactly how old those
> cabinets are and when the gaps became objectionable.
Judging by the names of the files I believe he posted the same photos for
the before shots as he did for the after shots...
John
>These cabinets are
> top-notch
Wanna bet? The doors are certainly not.
Therefore you will also want to suspect the cabinets themselves before you
go spending money replacing doors.
Best bet is to find someone who knows what they are doing to check things
out for you.
Unless you can find an honest/respected local cabinet maker (most have a
tendency to bad mouth everyone's work but theirs), consider paying a
licensed, third party building inspector for an honest appraisal of the
cabinet's structural situation before paying good money for new doors.
Just a year? ... any homeowner warranty under your state's laws?
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/13/05
"RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> If you read his original post he says he _bought_ the place a year ago.
> Well, if the corrected links are from a year ago, and he bought the
> place a year ago, and the gaps in the miters are visible back them,
> well, something is odd here, and only the OP can straighten it out.
We're saying basically the same thing...
I pulled the corrected link photos into Photoshop and the open miters don't
appear to be there but the left and middle upper cabinet doors aren't
aligned across the bottom. On that count there doesn't appear to be a change
over time.
John