I recently bought a used Rockwell bandsaw, which had been refitted
with a Baldor 1 hp motor, that was set up to run on 220V. I was told
that I could rewire it to run on 110V, which is all I have in my
garage. The saw ran on 220v when I tested it just fine.
So, I dutifully tried to make the change, but now it does not run.
I=92m hoping someone can tell me my mistake.
Here=92s what I did: The motor had 2 schematics on it, for =93low voltage=
=94
and one for =93high voltage.=94 The high voltage schematic showed this:
wires #2/3/5 together; wire #1 alone (which I found to be connected to
the cord=92s brown wire also); wire #4 to =93line=94 (I found #4 to be
connected to the cord=92s black wire); wires #J/8 together. This is, in
fact, how it was wired when I opened it up.
The second schematic showed this: wires #1/3/5 together (which I left
also connected to the cord=92s brown wire); wire #4 to =93line=94 (which I
left connected to the cord=92s black wire); wires #2/J/8 together. I
reconnected things following this schematic (in other words, I moved
#2 from 2/3/5 to J/8 and connected 1/brown to 3/5; I left 4/black
alone).
[As a sidenote, the motor also indicated that =93to reverse rotation
interchange #5 and #8=94=97since #s 5 and 8 had been switched in the
existing wiring I found, and therefore rotation had already been
reversed, I also treated #5 as #8=85including all of the descriptions
above, where I=92ve already substituted 5 for 8]
Then, I switched the male plug. The 220V plug had green, black, and
brown wires going to it; green connected to =93G=94, black connected to
=93Y=94, and brown connected to =93X=94. I put on a new 110V plug and
connected the green to the green screw, the black to the brass screw,
and the brown to the silver screw.
It does not turn on now. Please help! I really appreciate it. I
don=92t have much money and really need to get this working=85
On Thu, 18 Jun 2009 16:24:04 -0500, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>Tom Veatch wrote:
>...
>> ...Since I've been unable
>> to find a 240v bulb that will fit in the light cavity, ...
>I'd think you should be able to find them pretty easily in Wichita.
>They're appliance lamps for ranges and also for the application
>specifically from any of the industrial supply houses I'd think.
>
>The following link has at several from 40W to 100W; there are many
>others available if you really did/do want to go that route. As for me,
>I'd just leave it as is... :)
>
><http://www.buylighting.com/High-and-Low-Voltage-Specialty-Light-Bulbs-s/77.htm>
Every 240v bulb I've found locally in the proper wattage (40? or maybe
60, I disremember at this point) is a larger diameter (+1/4" ?) and
has a different configuration model number (A21?) than the equivalent
120v "standard" A19 bulb. That's just enough larger to prevent it from
fitting inside the cavity in the DP body.
Thanks for the link. I see they do have 40/60 watt 220v bulbs in the
A19 size, but, since I've already gone to the trouble of reconnecting
the chassis wiring to get 120v to the bulb and as you mentioned, I'm
simply going to leave it the way it is, using the EGC as the neutral.
It would take some extraordinary conditions for that arrangement to
develop enough voltage to ground on the DP chassis to be a hazard. A
large 120v load and a high resistance in the EGC path to ground could
present a hazard, but a 40/60 watt load, even with a 2 ohm resistance
in the ground path, would still only produce about one volt to ground
on the chassis. A dead short to a high resistance ground could produce
a fairly high voltage spike on the chassis but that would be the case
regardless of the way the DP is wired and would only last until the
breaker tripped..
Yeah, I know, it doesn't make a lot of sense to run a 3/4 horse motor
on 240v, but as a matter of course, everything I have that has a dual
voltage motor is configured to use 240. The reason is because when I
first put in my shop, I was amperage limited by the size of the feeder
the builder stubbed out for the shop when I had the house built in
1986. So, every stationary tool I bought, including the DP, was bought
with a dual voltage motor and configured for 240 to keep the amperage
draw as low as possible. That was all changed when I built a new shop
building after I retire in 2002 and had a 200 amp service installed.
(Yeah, it's overkill +) But, even with plenty of amperage available, I
see no need to reconfigure the tools for 120v.
My feeling that hardwiring the machine in it's present configuration
would be red-flagged is because I can't prove that's the
manufacturer's recommendation. But, then I wouldn't go out of my way
to bring it to an inspector's attention, assuming I wanted to hardwire
the DP and did the permit/inspection rigamarole. The paper copy of my
owner's manual doesn't show the "ground as neutral" configuration. I
saw that in an online manual on the manufacturer's website while doing
some research. Going back later to download a copy, I found that
configuration has disappeared from the online manual. It now matches
my paper copy and shows only connections for a 240v lamp. I suspect,
but don't know for sure, the reason for the change is UL listing
criteria. (BTW, the DP is a Jet JDP-17MF)
In any case, as you verified, we're still looking at 3-wire power
cords with 2 conductors + ground even on 240volt tools. I suspect that
4-wire power cords on 240v plug-in tools - even those with 120v work
lights - are rare to non-existant.
Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA
On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 09:03:22 -0400, "J. Clarke"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Tom Veatch wrote:
>> On Sat, 13 Jun 2009 20:14:42 -0500, "Jim" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> By the way, do not use the 2 wire + ground cable for 220v. You need
>>> the kind which has a real insulated neutral wire in addition to
>>> insulated hot wires.
>>> Jim
>>
>> 2+ground is fine for a 240 volt circuit. 240v circuits do not use a
>> neutral wire unless it's a multiwire circuit (like for a range, dryer,
>> etc) that has to supply 120v as well as 240. Straight 240v only uses 2
>> hots and a ground.
>
>I believe that most US codes call for four wire outlets with separate
>neutral and ground on all new domestic 220v installations that have outlets.
>If the equipment is to be permanently wired then it's a different story.
I believe that is true now, however up until recently 3-wire 240V
(H-G-H) were permitted as long as there wasn't a "significant"
imbalance in the 120V legs. Driers and ranges usually did not have a
neutral. As you point out, they do now but there are a lot of houses
already wired with 3-wire circuits and they are still permitted.
>If US code is not an issue where you are then do what you feel appropriate.
Change "you feel appropriate" to "what the local code requires".
Warning Warning.
Jim has his colours mixed up.
GREEN is GROUND and NOT Neutral
In the US White is neutral not Red.
In fact red is not used in most places in line cords today.
Red was GROUND in Germany many years ago.
Blue is generally neutral in 230volt countries and brown or black for Line
or active..
Be careful. If you are not sure get some professional help.
John G.
"Jim" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "bob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:1321c6f7-0bb7-4750-90f6-695751dbbf45@a36g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
> I recently bought a used Rockwell bandsaw, which had been refitted
> with a Baldor 1 hp motor, that was set up to run on 220V. I was told
> that I could rewire it to run on 110V, which is all I have in my
> garage. The saw ran on 220v when I tested it just fine.
>
> So, I dutifully tried to make the change, but now it does not run.
> Im hoping someone can tell me my mistake.
>
> Heres what I did: The motor had 2 schematics on it, for low voltage
> and one for high voltage. The high voltage schematic showed this:
> wires #2/3/5 together; wire #1 alone (which I found to be connected to
> the cords brown wire also); wire #4 to line (I found #4 to be
> connected to the cords black wire); wires #J/8 together. This is, in
> fact, how it was wired when I opened it up.
>
> The second schematic showed this: wires #1/3/5 together (which I left
> also connected to the cords brown wire); wire #4 to line (which I
> left connected to the cords black wire); wires #2/J/8 together. I
> reconnected things following this schematic (in other words, I moved
> #2 from 2/3/5 to J/8 and connected 1/brown to 3/5; I left 4/black
> alone).
>
> [As a sidenote, the motor also indicated that to reverse rotation
> interchange #5 and #8since #s 5 and 8 had been switched in the
> existing wiring I found, and therefore rotation had already been
> reversed, I also treated #5 as #8
including all of the descriptions
> above, where Ive already substituted 5 for 8]
>
> Then, I switched the male plug. The 220V plug had green, black, and
> brown wires going to it; green connected to G, black connected to
> Y, and brown connected to X. I put on a new 110V plug and
> connected the green to the green screw, the black to the brass screw,
> and the brown to the silver screw.
>
> It does not turn on now. Please help! I really appreciate it. I
> dont have much money and really need to get this working
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> I would take it to an electric motor shop. They could surely correct your
> wiring while you wait.
>
> My take on your message is:
>
> "low voltage" means 110v. The usual 110v cord has a black (hot) wire, a
> white (ground) wire, and a green (neutral) wire.
> "high voltage" means 220v. The usual 220v cord has a black (hot) wire, a
> red (hot) wire, and a green (neutral) wire. Sometimes other hot wire is
> white instead of red.
>
> Unless you have a multimeter to test continuity, you may not be able to
> solve the problem by yourself.
>
> What the schematics show is how to change the wiring of field coils from
> being in parallel to being in series.
> Jim
>
>
On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 19:08:38 -0500, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>No, I'm saying that 4-wires (H-N-G-H) are _now_ required for all loads
>with a 120V component, but that this has only been the case for a
>short while. Up until perhaps ten or fifteen years ago loads with a
>small 120V component (dryers and ranges) could get away with a shared
>neutral-ground. These applications are grandfathered in existing
>homes, so they are still prevalent. Any application that has no 120V
>component (table saws and air conditioners, etc.) still do not require
>a neutral. There would be nothing to connect one to[*]. ;-) For the
>most part, the NEC makes perfect sense.
Total agreement here.
>
>[*] At my PPoE the safety "experts" demanded a three-wire plug on a
>plastic clock, so my tech connected the green wire to a lug screwed to
>the plastic case. They were happy. :-/
Bureaucrats! Gotta love 'em.
>
>> In fact, except for the connection of the white wires
>>to one pole of a double pole breaker instead of the neutral bus.
>
>Yes, this is fine, other than there should *NOT* be a white wire on
>the breaker, nor in the outlet box.
>
>I hope I cleared up any miscommunication.
Yep, we're definitely talking apples and oranges. To recap, the OP was
talking about running his new-to-him bandsaw on 120v and is having
problems with the motor after swapping the leads from High to Low
voltage operation. I really don't know how 240v circuit wiring came
into the picture, but a comment was posted to the effect that he
needed 4-wire cable for 240v. I replied that 2+ground was perfectly OK
for a 240v circuit. In the context of a 240v tool that doesn't require
a 120v supply, I'll hold to that statement and you apparently agree..
Well, things degenerated from that point. I really don't know how
120/240 multiwire circuits got pulled into the conversation, but they
are totally outside the context of the original question.
You and I seem to agree 100% on the salient points of the discussion.
Oh, BTW, the "white" wires in my 240v circuits that are connected to
the breaker have been reidentifed per code at the accessible points.
Have a good day.
Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA
Thanks to everyone for the help, and for the EE lessons as well.
After consideration of everyone's input and some additional research I
decided that I had it wired right, but that the switch also needed to
be redone (this after I bypassed the on/off switch and discovered that
it ran fine that way). So, one new 110V later, it now runs fine and
I'm good to go. Again, thanks.
In article
<1321c6f7-0bb7-4750-90f6-695751dbbf45@a36g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
bob <[email protected]> wrote:
> It does not turn on now. Please help! I really appreciate it. I
> dont have much money and really need to get this working
Sounds very complicated to me. I know it's a bandsaw and therefore
woodworking related - sort of - but maybe you should direct you question to
alt.engineering.electrical
However, do beware there are some foul mouthed idiots there who love to
hurl abuse at people and each other. They don't know anything either. Best
put a killfile on domain @webtv.net, which is where some of them post
from, before you start.
In article <[email protected]>,
Jim <[email protected]> wrote:
> OK, scratch everything I posted except where I said to take the motor to
> an electrical motor repair place. You should always follow the
> electrical code, and what I posted may not be in agreement with that
> document. Jim
I think that is probably the most sensible course though he may get better
advice across in alt.engineering.electrical.
However, it is important to remember that whatever codes or regulations
may say regarding new installations, these have changed over the years at
different times in different counties and different states.
It is also important to realise that the internal wiring within a motor or
appliance is not usually governed by such codes and a manufacturer can use
whatever he fancies.
As far as the UK (240V) was concerned, the three live phase colours were
always red yellow and blue, neutral was black and green was earth.
However, in order to save paying pensions to electricians, they changed
the colours a couple of years ago, swapping over the functions of the blue
and black wires, and, at the same time, turning red into brown. The fixed
wiring within a domestic premises was Red and black with a bare earth but
they changed that at the same time as the above, to Brown and blue.
Flexible cordage used to be a nice obvious red and black (Red for danger,
"hot", nice and easy) with green for earth but they changed that around
20/30 years ago to blue, brown and green with a yellow tracer. Having said
that, I've come across some very interesting colour combinations in the
cordage for early Singer electric sewing machines! - presumably these were
american imports.
On Jun 13, 4:35=A0pm, Mule Skinner <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Jun 13, 2:13=A0pm, "Jim" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "bob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> >news:1321c6f7-0bb7-4750-90f6-695751dbbf45@a36g2000yqc.googlegroups.com..=
.
> > I recently bought a used Rockwell bandsaw, which had been refitted
> > with a Baldor 1 hp motor, that was set up to run on 220V. =A0I was told
> > that I could rewire it to run on 110V, which is all I have in my
> > garage. =A0The saw ran on 220v when I tested it just fine.
>
> > So, I dutifully tried to make the change, but now it does not run.
> > I=92m hoping someone can tell me my mistake.
>
> > Here=92s what I did: The motor had 2 schematics on it, for =93low volta=
ge=94
> > and one for =93high voltage.=94 =A0The high voltage schematic showed th=
is:
> > wires #2/3/5 together; wire #1 alone (which I found to be connected to
> > the cord=92s brown wire also); wire #4 to =93line=94 (I found #4 to be
> > connected to the cord=92s black wire); wires #J/8 together. =A0This is,=
in
> > fact, how it was wired when I opened it up.
>
> > The second schematic showed this: wires #1/3/5 together (which I left
> > also connected to the cord=92s brown wire); wire #4 to =93line=94 (whic=
h I
> > left connected to the cord=92s black wire); wires #2/J/8 together. =A0I
> > reconnected things following this schematic (in other words, I moved
> > #2 from 2/3/5 to J/8 and connected 1/brown to 3/5; I left 4/black
> > alone).
>
> > [As a sidenote, the motor also indicated that =93to reverse rotation
> > interchange #5 and #8=94=97since #s 5 and 8 had been switched in the
> > existing wiring I found, and therefore rotation had already been
> > reversed, I also treated #5 as #8=85including all of the descriptions
> > above, where I=92ve already substituted 5 for 8]
>
> > Then, I switched the male plug. =A0The 220V plug had green, black, and
> > brown wires going to it; green connected to =93G=94, black connected to
> > =93Y=94, and brown connected to =93X=94. =A0I put on a new 110V plug an=
d
> > connected the green to the green screw, the black to the brass screw,
> > and the brown to the silver screw.
>
> > It does not turn on now. =A0Please help! =A0I really appreciate it. =A0=
I
> > don=92t have much money and really need to get this working=85
>
> > ------------------------------------------------------
> > I would take it to an electric motor shop. =A0They could surely correct=
your
> > wiring while you wait.
>
> > My take on your message is:
>
> > "low voltage" means 110v. =A0The usual 110v cord has a black (hot) wire=
, a
> > white (ground) wire, and a green (neutral) wire.
> > "high voltage" means 220v. =A0The usual 220v cord has a black (hot) wir=
e, a
> > red (hot) wire, and a green (neutral) wire. =A0Sometimes other hot wire=
is
> > white instead of red.
>
> > Unless you have a multimeter to test continuity, you may not be able to
> > solve the problem by yourself.
>
> > What the schematics show is how to change the wiring of field coils fro=
m
> > being in parallel to being in series.
> > Jim
>
> That 110V will require several more amps than the 220V did. =A0Make sure
> your circuit can accommodate them.
Yes, true. The saw claims 12.4 amps and it's on a 20 amp circuit so
if I don't use anything else there I should be ok.
On Sat, 13 Jun 2009 20:09:22 -0500, "Jim" <[email protected]> wrote:
In the US (Europe is quite different):
>I was describing cords for two different voltages. The black wire is always
>hot.
Not always hot, though it is always *a* hot (it may be switched).
>The green wire is always neutral (or ground more or less).
No! Green is ground. Ground and neutral are different animals.
>In 110
>cords, the neutral wire is white.
Yes. If there is a neutral in 240V cords it is also white.
>In 110 cords, the other hot wire can be
>red or white or (I suppose in the OP's case) brown.
In *240V* (split-phase - US style) cords the second hot it is usually
red, but I believe it can be anything other than green or white. (Blue
is commonly used for the third phase in 3-phase).
>Some people say that if
>you are using three wire romex (which has black and white wires with a bare
>ground wire), you are supposed to paint the end of the white wires black to
>indicate that it is hot.
In a 240V circuit you may "paint" the white wire black (or red) to
indicate that it is a hot. It's done for the "traveling" wires in
120V 3-way circuits, as well.
>I have only seen a green wire in 220v circuits (it
>is neutral which is not necessarily ground).
Absolutely not! It most certainly is *NOT* neutral. The green wire
*MUST* be ground. Ground and neutral are different. 220V circuits
may or may not have a neutral.
>I believe that the OP is in over his head and should take the motor to an
>electrical motor shop.
He sure as hell shouldn't listen to you. If you don't know what
you're doing, please don't give advice. You could get someone killed!
On Jun 13, 2:13=A0pm, "Jim" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "bob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:1321c6f7-0bb7-4750-90f6-695751dbbf45@a36g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
> I recently bought a used Rockwell bandsaw, which had been refitted
> with a Baldor 1 hp motor, that was set up to run on 220V. =A0I was told
> that I could rewire it to run on 110V, which is all I have in my
> garage. =A0The saw ran on 220v when I tested it just fine.
>
> So, I dutifully tried to make the change, but now it does not run.
> I=92m hoping someone can tell me my mistake.
>
> Here=92s what I did: The motor had 2 schematics on it, for =93low voltage=
=94
> and one for =93high voltage.=94 =A0The high voltage schematic showed this=
:
> wires #2/3/5 together; wire #1 alone (which I found to be connected to
> the cord=92s brown wire also); wire #4 to =93line=94 (I found #4 to be
> connected to the cord=92s black wire); wires #J/8 together. =A0This is, i=
n
> fact, how it was wired when I opened it up.
>
> The second schematic showed this: wires #1/3/5 together (which I left
> also connected to the cord=92s brown wire); wire #4 to =93line=94 (which =
I
> left connected to the cord=92s black wire); wires #2/J/8 together. =A0I
> reconnected things following this schematic (in other words, I moved
> #2 from 2/3/5 to J/8 and connected 1/brown to 3/5; I left 4/black
> alone).
>
> [As a sidenote, the motor also indicated that =93to reverse rotation
> interchange #5 and #8=94=97since #s 5 and 8 had been switched in the
> existing wiring I found, and therefore rotation had already been
> reversed, I also treated #5 as #8=85including all of the descriptions
> above, where I=92ve already substituted 5 for 8]
>
> Then, I switched the male plug. =A0The 220V plug had green, black, and
> brown wires going to it; green connected to =93G=94, black connected to
> =93Y=94, and brown connected to =93X=94. =A0I put on a new 110V plug and
> connected the green to the green screw, the black to the brass screw,
> and the brown to the silver screw.
>
> It does not turn on now. =A0Please help! =A0I really appreciate it. =A0I
> don=92t have much money and really need to get this working=85
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> I would take it to an electric motor shop. =A0They could surely correct y=
our
> wiring while you wait.
>
> My take on your message is:
>
> "low voltage" means 110v. =A0The usual 110v cord has a black (hot) wire, =
a
> white (ground) wire, and a green (neutral) wire.
> "high voltage" means 220v. =A0The usual 220v cord has a black (hot) wire,=
a
> red (hot) wire, and a green (neutral) wire. =A0Sometimes other hot wire i=
s
> white instead of red.
>
> Unless you have a multimeter to test continuity, you may not be able to
> solve the problem by yourself.
>
> What the schematics show is how to change the wiring of field coils from
> being in parallel to being in series.
> Jim
That 110V will require several more amps than the 220V did. Make sure
your circuit can accommodate them.
On Sat, 13 Jun 2009 12:24:34 -0700 (PDT), bob
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Heres what I did: The motor had 2 schematics on it, for low voltage
>and one for high voltage. The high voltage schematic showed this:
>wires #2/3/5 together; wire #1 alone (which I found to be connected to
>the cords brown wire also); wire #4 to line (I found #4 to be
>connected to the cords black wire); wires #J/8 together. This is, in
>fact, how it was wired when I opened it up.
>
>The second schematic showed this: wires #1/3/5 together (which I left
>also connected to the cords brown wire); wire #4 to line (which I
>left connected to the cords black wire); wires #2/J/8 together. I
>reconnected things following this schematic (in other words, I moved
>#2 from 2/3/5 to J/8 and connected 1/brown to 3/5; I left 4/black
>alone).
I have a Baldor 3HP motor on my bandsaw but there seems to be a
difference between your diagram and mine. To switch mine from High to
Low is was only necessary to disconnect 3 from the 2-3-5 bundle and
connect it to the 1-8 pair. Then connect J to the 2-5 pair replacing
the 3 that was removed from that bundle. J is capped off and not used
in the High voltage configuration of my motor.
There's a bigger difference between the diagram for your motor and
mine than I'd expect for similar type motors (albeit different HP)
from the same company. Can you post a picture of your diagram in ABPW?
My diagram:
High:
1----|_______Line 1
8----|
2----|
3----|
5----|
4--------------- Line 2
J------ (unused)
Low:
1------|
3------|----------Line 1
8------|
2------|
5------|
J------|
4-----------------Line 2
Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA
On Jun 13, 2:24=A0pm, bob <[email protected]> wrote:
> I recently bought a used Rockwell bandsaw, which had been refitted
> with a Baldor 1 hp motor, that was set up to run on 220V. =A0I was told
If it was set up to run on 220VAC, It may have only needed two wires -
both hot.
If I were you, I would put it back the way I found it, test it to be
sure you have, and begin again.
This time, ignore the rotation - it should NOT affect the wiring as to
voltage.
Ignore the "colors" on the existing power cord - most 220 cords will
be RED BLACK and WHITE with the first two the essential HOTS and the
last the NEUTRAL. The one on your motor appears to have BROWN where I
expected RED and GREEN where I expected WHITE.
The X and Y on the plug are not at all familiar - are you in the
USofA? But the left and right pins should be the HOTS and the one in
the center, the NEUTRAL What was the green wire tied to when you
opened it up?
For the 120VAC there will only be one HOT (BLACK) , one NEUTRAL
(WHITE) and one GROUND (GREEN) if you use the appropriate colored
cord. The green would attach to a grounding screw on the motor frame
and the black to the LINE. But I can't tell how to connect the white.
You might also look for Baldor web site and wiring diagrams/
information there. Without the diagrams to look at, I'm hard pressed
to really help.
http://www.baldor.com/support/
Your connections are correct. Does the motor hum or buzz when you try to
start it, or is it completely dead? If it's completely dead, and you
definitely have power going to the motor leads, then the manual motor
protector is probably tripped. There should be a red button somewhere on the
motor. You need to press it in firmly until it clicks.
If the motor hums, then there is a problem with the starting circuit -
either a bad capacitor or a bad internal starting switch (very common on
woodworking motors). Try this: remove the belt, install a jumper wire across
the two wires going to the capacitor. Try starting the motor. If it starts,
you need a new capacitor. If it still hums, you need a new internal starting
switch.
Doug
"bob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1321c6f7-0bb7-4750-90f6-695751dbbf45@a36g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
I recently bought a used Rockwell bandsaw, which had been refitted
with a Baldor 1 hp motor, that was set up to run on 220V. I was told
that I could rewire it to run on 110V, which is all I have in my
garage. The saw ran on 220v when I tested it just fine.
So, I dutifully tried to make the change, but now it does not run.
Im hoping someone can tell me my mistake.
Heres what I did: The motor had 2 schematics on it, for low voltage
and one for high voltage. The high voltage schematic showed this:
wires #2/3/5 together; wire #1 alone (which I found to be connected to
the cords brown wire also); wire #4 to line (I found #4 to be
connected to the cords black wire); wires #J/8 together. This is, in
fact, how it was wired when I opened it up.
The second schematic showed this: wires #1/3/5 together (which I left
also connected to the cords brown wire); wire #4 to line (which I
left connected to the cords black wire); wires #2/J/8 together. I
reconnected things following this schematic (in other words, I moved
#2 from 2/3/5 to J/8 and connected 1/brown to 3/5; I left 4/black
alone).
[As a sidenote, the motor also indicated that to reverse rotation
interchange #5 and #8since #s 5 and 8 had been switched in the
existing wiring I found, and therefore rotation had already been
reversed, I also treated #5 as #8
including all of the descriptions
above, where Ive already substituted 5 for 8]
Then, I switched the male plug. The 220V plug had green, black, and
brown wires going to it; green connected to G, black connected to
Y, and brown connected to X. I put on a new 110V plug and
connected the green to the green screw, the black to the brass screw,
and the brown to the silver screw.
It does not turn on now. Please help! I really appreciate it. I
dont have much money and really need to get this working
By the way, do not use the 2 wire + ground cable for 220v. You need the
kind which has a real insulated neutral wire in addition to insulated hot
wires.
Jim
"Jim" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I was describing cords for two different voltages. The black wire is
>always hot. The green wire is always neutral (or ground more or less). In
>110 cords, the neutral wire is white. In 110 cords, the other hot wire can
>be red or white or (I suppose in the OP's case) brown. Some people say
>that if you are using three wire romex (which has black and white wires
>with a bare ground wire), you are supposed to paint the end of the white
>wires black to indicate that it is hot. I have only seen a green wire in
>220v circuits (it is neutral which is not necessarily ground).
>
> I believe that the OP is in over his head and should take the motor to an
> electrical motor shop.
>
> Jim
> "John G." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Warning Warning.
>>
>> Jim has his colours mixed up.
>> GREEN is GROUND and NOT Neutral
>> In the US White is neutral not Red.
>> In fact red is not used in most places in line cords today.
>> Red was GROUND in Germany many years ago.
>> Blue is generally neutral in 230volt countries and brown or black for
>> Line or active..
>> Be careful. If you are not sure get some professional help.
>>
>> John G.
>>
>> "Jim" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> "bob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:1321c6f7-0bb7-4750-90f6-695751dbbf45@a36g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
>>> I recently bought a used Rockwell bandsaw, which had been refitted
>>> with a Baldor 1 hp motor, that was set up to run on 220V. I was told
>>> that I could rewire it to run on 110V, which is all I have in my
>>> garage. The saw ran on 220v when I tested it just fine.
>>>
>>> So, I dutifully tried to make the change, but now it does not run.
>>> I'm hoping someone can tell me my mistake.
>>>
>>> Here's what I did: The motor had 2 schematics on it, for "low voltage"
>>> and one for "high voltage." The high voltage schematic showed this:
>>> wires #2/3/5 together; wire #1 alone (which I found to be connected to
>>> the cord's brown wire also); wire #4 to "line" (I found #4 to be
>>> connected to the cord's black wire); wires #J/8 together. This is, in
>>> fact, how it was wired when I opened it up.
>>>
>>> The second schematic showed this: wires #1/3/5 together (which I left
>>> also connected to the cord's brown wire); wire #4 to "line" (which I
>>> left connected to the cord's black wire); wires #2/J/8 together. I
>>> reconnected things following this schematic (in other words, I moved
>>> #2 from 2/3/5 to J/8 and connected 1/brown to 3/5; I left 4/black
>>> alone).
>>>
>>> [As a sidenote, the motor also indicated that "to reverse rotation
>>> interchange #5 and #8"-since #s 5 and 8 had been switched in the
>>> existing wiring I found, and therefore rotation had already been
>>> reversed, I also treated #5 as #8.including all of the descriptions
>>> above, where I've already substituted 5 for 8]
>>>
>>> Then, I switched the male plug. The 220V plug had green, black, and
>>> brown wires going to it; green connected to "G", black connected to
>>> "Y", and brown connected to "X". I put on a new 110V plug and
>>> connected the green to the green screw, the black to the brass screw,
>>> and the brown to the silver screw.
>>>
>>> It does not turn on now. Please help! I really appreciate it. I
>>> don't have much money and really need to get this working.
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------
>>> I would take it to an electric motor shop. They could surely correct
>>> your wiring while you wait.
>>>
>>> My take on your message is:
>>>
>>> "low voltage" means 110v. The usual 110v cord has a black (hot) wire, a
>>> white (ground) wire, and a green (neutral) wire.
>>> "high voltage" means 220v. The usual 220v cord has a black (hot) wire,
>>> a red (hot) wire, and a green (neutral) wire. Sometimes other hot wire
>>> is white instead of red.
>>>
>>> Unless you have a multimeter to test continuity, you may not be able to
>>> solve the problem by yourself.
>>>
>>> What the schematics show is how to change the wiring of field coils from
>>> being in parallel to being in series.
>>> Jim
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 19:43:26 -0700 (PDT), bob
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Thanks to everyone for the help, and for the EE lessons as well.
>After consideration of everyone's input and some additional research I
>decided that I had it wired right, but that the switch also needed to
>be redone (this after I bypassed the on/off switch and discovered that
>it ran fine that way). So, one new 110V later, it now runs fine and
>I'm good to go. Again, thanks.
Glad you found the problem. Enjoy your "new" bandsaw and have a good
day. Still a little perplexed about the difference in the wiring of
your motor vs mine, but there ain't no rule that they have to be
consistent even within the same company.
Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA
"Tom Veatch" wrote:
> Yeah, I know, it doesn't make a lot of sense to run a 3/4 horse
> motor
> on 240v, but as a matter of course, everything I have that has a
> dual
> voltage motor is configured to use 240.
SFWIW
All the years I was in the electrical industry, major industrial
customers had a spec limiting single phase motors to 1/2 HP.
Reason:
3 PH power was standard, 1 PH power had to be derived by installing a
transformer which helped to create phase unbalance.
It was less expensive to standardize on 3 PH equipment.
As far as a 240V lamp, it's a standard offering but probably not
stocked by distributors, but you are shooting yourself in the foot.
(Can tell a story about George Steinbrenner and 240V lamps)
For incandescent lamps, the higher the voltage, the finer the
filament.
The finer the filament, the more likely it will fail due to vibration.
For years, the majority of motor control indicating lights were
transformer type, 120V primary, 6V secondary, /w/ 6V lamp filaments,
just to overcome the vibration problems found with normal machine
tools.
Lew
.
I was describing cords for two different voltages. The black wire is always
hot. The green wire is always neutral (or ground more or less). In 110
cords, the neutral wire is white. In 110 cords, the other hot wire can be
red or white or (I suppose in the OP's case) brown. Some people say that if
you are using three wire romex (which has black and white wires with a bare
ground wire), you are supposed to paint the end of the white wires black to
indicate that it is hot. I have only seen a green wire in 220v circuits (it
is neutral which is not necessarily ground).
I believe that the OP is in over his head and should take the motor to an
electrical motor shop.
Jim
"John G." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Warning Warning.
>
> Jim has his colours mixed up.
> GREEN is GROUND and NOT Neutral
> In the US White is neutral not Red.
> In fact red is not used in most places in line cords today.
> Red was GROUND in Germany many years ago.
> Blue is generally neutral in 230volt countries and brown or black for Line
> or active..
> Be careful. If you are not sure get some professional help.
>
> John G.
>
> "Jim" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "bob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:1321c6f7-0bb7-4750-90f6-695751dbbf45@a36g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
>> I recently bought a used Rockwell bandsaw, which had been refitted
>> with a Baldor 1 hp motor, that was set up to run on 220V. I was told
>> that I could rewire it to run on 110V, which is all I have in my
>> garage. The saw ran on 220v when I tested it just fine.
>>
>> So, I dutifully tried to make the change, but now it does not run.
>> I'm hoping someone can tell me my mistake.
>>
>> Here's what I did: The motor had 2 schematics on it, for "low voltage"
>> and one for "high voltage." The high voltage schematic showed this:
>> wires #2/3/5 together; wire #1 alone (which I found to be connected to
>> the cord's brown wire also); wire #4 to "line" (I found #4 to be
>> connected to the cord's black wire); wires #J/8 together. This is, in
>> fact, how it was wired when I opened it up.
>>
>> The second schematic showed this: wires #1/3/5 together (which I left
>> also connected to the cord's brown wire); wire #4 to "line" (which I
>> left connected to the cord's black wire); wires #2/J/8 together. I
>> reconnected things following this schematic (in other words, I moved
>> #2 from 2/3/5 to J/8 and connected 1/brown to 3/5; I left 4/black
>> alone).
>>
>> [As a sidenote, the motor also indicated that "to reverse rotation
>> interchange #5 and #8"-since #s 5 and 8 had been switched in the
>> existing wiring I found, and therefore rotation had already been
>> reversed, I also treated #5 as #8.including all of the descriptions
>> above, where I've already substituted 5 for 8]
>>
>> Then, I switched the male plug. The 220V plug had green, black, and
>> brown wires going to it; green connected to "G", black connected to
>> "Y", and brown connected to "X". I put on a new 110V plug and
>> connected the green to the green screw, the black to the brass screw,
>> and the brown to the silver screw.
>>
>> It does not turn on now. Please help! I really appreciate it. I
>> don't have much money and really need to get this working.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------
>> I would take it to an electric motor shop. They could surely correct
>> your wiring while you wait.
>>
>> My take on your message is:
>>
>> "low voltage" means 110v. The usual 110v cord has a black (hot) wire, a
>> white (ground) wire, and a green (neutral) wire.
>> "high voltage" means 220v. The usual 220v cord has a black (hot) wire, a
>> red (hot) wire, and a green (neutral) wire. Sometimes other hot wire is
>> white instead of red.
>>
>> Unless you have a multimeter to test continuity, you may not be able to
>> solve the problem by yourself.
>>
>> What the schematics show is how to change the wiring of field coils from
>> being in parallel to being in series.
>> Jim
>>
>>
>
>
On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 09:03:22 -0400, "J. Clarke"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I believe that most US codes call for four wire outlets with separate
>neutral and ground on all new domestic 220v installations that have outlets.
>If the equipment is to be permanently wired then it's a different story.
Local Jurisdiction rules? I know the codes here certainly don't
require an unnecessary, unusable wire in a straight 240v circuit
equipped with NEMA 6-XX receptacles. Circuits for ranges, dryers and
other such loads that use 240v and 120v simultaneously are 4-wire
circuits (2 hot, neutral and ground) with NEMA14-XX wiring devices,
but that's because of the need for the circuit to supply 120v as well
as 240v.
In those jurisdictions that require a neutral for a straight 240v
circuit, what is done with the neutral wire? NEMA 6-XX devices don't
have a provision for a third conductor so there's nowhere to connect
it unless it's tied to the boxes and used as a duplicate grounding
conductor. Or do all 240v plug-in loads have to be fitted with a NEMA
14 plug with the neutral connection left vacant?
Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA
On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 11:55:26 -0500, Tom Veatch <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 10:55:47 -0500, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>I believe that is true now, however up until recently 3-wire 240V
>>(H-G-H) were permitted as long as there wasn't a "significant"
>>imbalance in the 120V legs. Driers and ranges usually did not have a
>>neutral. As you point out, they do now but there are a lot of houses
>>already wired with 3-wire circuits and they are still permitted.
>
>Well, it's impossible for a straight 240v load to have any imbalance
>between the 120v legs unless there's a ground fault,
Driers and ranges used ground as the neutral. they only used 120V for
the timers, so the *ground* current was deemed safe, saving a lot of
copper.
> and using the
>equipment grounding conductor as the neutral for the 120v supply in a
>dual voltage appliance is a big NO-NO in the NEC.
It wasn't until recently. Like most code, this has been grand
fathered. There is no requirement to change existing homes.
>Just for my
>education, do you know when the NEC last allowed that?
Don't remember the dates, but it's been in the last 20 years. My last
house (built in '86) had a three wire connection to the dryer, but
four to the range. Both were aluminum. :-(
Both connections are actually correct and accomplish the same thing. Wire #4
goes through a thermal overload before it goes to the main motor winding.
Wire #J comes off of the overload to be used as the means for connecting the
two main windings in parallel when connected for low (115) volts.
The starting winding in this motor is always 115 volts. When the motor is
connected for 230 volts, the two halves of the main winding are connected in
series so that they each see 115 volts. The 2/3/8 (or 2/3/5) connection is
the mid point of the series connection, which allows the starting winding to
receive 115 volts from the 230 volt connection. Thus, the other end of the
starting winding (#5 or #8) can be connected to either the #1/line
connection, or be connected to wire #J. Either way, interchanging #5 and #8
will reverse the motor rotation.
Doug
"Tom Veatch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 13 Jun 2009 12:24:34 -0700 (PDT), bob
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Here's what I did: The motor had 2 schematics on it, for "low voltage"
>>and one for "high voltage." The high voltage schematic showed this:
>>wires #2/3/5 together; wire #1 alone (which I found to be connected to
>>the cord's brown wire also); wire #4 to "line" (I found #4 to be
>>connected to the cord's black wire); wires #J/8 together. This is, in
>>fact, how it was wired when I opened it up.
>>
>>The second schematic showed this: wires #1/3/5 together (which I left
>>also connected to the cord's brown wire); wire #4 to "line" (which I
>>left connected to the cord's black wire); wires #2/J/8 together. I
>>reconnected things following this schematic (in other words, I moved
>>#2 from 2/3/5 to J/8 and connected 1/brown to 3/5; I left 4/black
>>alone).
>
>
>
> I have a Baldor 3HP motor on my bandsaw but there seems to be a
> difference between your diagram and mine. To switch mine from High to
> Low is was only necessary to disconnect 3 from the 2-3-5 bundle and
> connect it to the 1-8 pair. Then connect J to the 2-5 pair replacing
> the 3 that was removed from that bundle. J is capped off and not used
> in the High voltage configuration of my motor.
>
> There's a bigger difference between the diagram for your motor and
> mine than I'd expect for similar type motors (albeit different HP)
> from the same company. Can you post a picture of your diagram in ABPW?
>
> My diagram:
>
> High:
>
> 1----|_______Line 1
> 8----|
>
> 2----|
> 3----|
> 5----|
>
> 4--------------- Line 2
>
> J------ (unused)
>
>
> Low:
>
> 1------|
> 3------|----------Line 1
> 8------|
>
> 2------|
> 5------|
> J------|
>
> 4-----------------Line 2
>
> Tom Veatch
> Wichita, KS
> USA
>
>
Tom Veatch wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Jun 2009 20:14:42 -0500, "Jim" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> By the way, do not use the 2 wire + ground cable for 220v. You need
>> the kind which has a real insulated neutral wire in addition to
>> insulated hot wires.
>> Jim
>
> 2+ground is fine for a 240 volt circuit. 240v circuits do not use a
> neutral wire unless it's a multiwire circuit (like for a range, dryer,
> etc) that has to supply 120v as well as 240. Straight 240v only uses 2
> hots and a ground.
I believe that most US codes call for four wire outlets with separate
neutral and ground on all new domestic 220v installations that have outlets.
If the equipment is to be permanently wired then it's a different story.
If US code is not an issue where you are then do what you feel appropriate.
Tom Veatch wrote:
...
> Do your machines have a 4-wire cord and NEMA 14 plugs to a 4-wire
> 120/240 circuit?
No, of course not!!! :)
They're the same as you describe simply using ground as neutral (for the
outstanding load of a 60(75 max) W bulb I can't get particularly up in a
tizzy :) ).
Of course, they're both a minimum of 30-40 years old; perhaps a new one
might not do the same.
AFAIK NEC doesn't apply even yet for the reason you also cited; it's
temporary load, not fixed which NEC doesn't address. What current UL is
I don't know (nor really care :) ) and whether OSHA has their rules for
commercial shops that would cover it I fortunately also don't have to
consider.
As for your specific instance, what inspector and under what provision
would you think he could red tag it given it is wired per the
manufacturer's directions?
Primarily just commenting that at least at one time it was the quite
common thing to do just as it was for dual-voltage appliances. Does
Delta, for example, give any connection/wiring data for any current
machines that indicate they supply 240V 4-wire cordsets or do they not
supply the actual plug any longer? (I'd go look and see what I might
find except the P-C site is abysmally slow w/ my dialup connection).
/EDITORIALIZING_EVEN_FURTHER_WARNING
Were there really any widespread problems w/ that configuration?
Personally have had both the range and the dryer for "since forever";
certainly since the late 50s/very early 60s and both are still of that
configuration here. That's 50 years or so and in that whole time I've
never, ever heard of an actual problem from it. Seems like another case
of curing a disease that never was simply for the purpose of the
Standards group continuing to need something to present as a result of
their labors and to justify keeping meeting in Vegas/New Orleans/etc.,
... :) [or :(, I'm not sure which, perhaps...]
END_EDITORIALIZING_EVEN_FURTHER_WARNING/
--
Tom Veatch wrote:
...
> ...Since I've been unable
> to find a 240v bulb that will fit in the light cavity, ...
I intended to add in other response but since didn't I'll make this
specific...
I'd think you should be able to find them pretty easily in Wichita.
They're appliance lamps for ranges and also for the application
specifically from any of the industrial supply houses I'd think.
The following link has at several from 40W to 100W; there are many
others available if you really did/do want to go that route. As for me,
I'd just leave it as is... :)
<http://www.buylighting.com/High-and-Low-Voltage-Specialty-Light-Bulbs-s/77.htm>
--
Tom Veatch wrote:
...
> My feeling that hardwiring the machine in it's present configuration
> would be red-flagged is because I can't prove that's the
> manufacturer's recommendation. But, then I wouldn't go out of my way
> to bring it to an inspector's attention, assuming I wanted to hardwire
> the DP and did the permit/inspection rigamarole. ...
Unless this is a commercial shop (and even there I'd think it unlikely)
I can't imagine that simply placing the connection to the DP in a
junction box in an existing facility would require permits even in
Wichita. Surely even inside the city limits the level isn't that great
is it?
I'm outside 3-mi city-jurisdiction limits in SW County so there is no
permitting/inspection required, thank goodness. I don't see how a farm
producer would survive under that level of microscopic detail altho it's
getting difficult w/ the increasing level of monitoring/reporting
required for water/waste/fertilizer/pest-/herbicides/etc./etc./etc./... :(
--
Tom Veatch wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Jun 2009 20:25:09 -0500, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I can't imagine that simply placing the connection to the DP in a
>> junction box in an existing facility would require permits even in
>> Wichita. Surely even inside the city limits the level isn't that
>> great is it?
>
> Most likely it wouldn't, but then, I'll never know because I'll never
> ask the question. Within reason, I go according to the old adages "If
> you think you won't like the answer, don't ask the question" and "It's
> better to ask forgiveness than beg permission". But, technically,
> you're modifying the permanent wiring of the facility and, if it's a
> slow day in the inspector's office, that could bring code compliance
> into question.
>
> When I had the new shop built, the electrician just stubbed out
> individual 240v 3 wire (2+G) circuits to disconnects for my air
> compressor, cabinet saw, and cyclone. IIRC, he asked whether the loads
> required 120/240 or just 240. Those circuits terminated at the
> disconnects when the final inspection was passed. I wired the machines
> into the disconnects myself, without bureaucratic hindrance.... er..
> assistance..., after the final inspection, so the code enforcement
> officers really have no true knowledge of how I configured those
> connections.
>
> (Yes, my TS is hard wired.)
>
> I was thinking more in terms of the general case than the specific
> instance of the DP. If a special purpose single phase circuit is run
> for a machine that requires 120/240v, (driers and ranges come to mind
> as the more common cases) current codes would require a 4-wire
> circuit.
If it's your house and you don't care about selling it then do whatever you
want to.
If you plan on selling it then you want wiring to code and properly
permitted--if someone asks the inspector to look at it he can make you rip
out all unpermitted wiring and redo it before you can sell if he's wanting
to be a pain in the ass about it.
If it's a commercial building you want to do it strictly by the book. Doing
otherwise is asking for trouble.
On Thu, 18 Jun 2009 20:25:09 -0500, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>I can't imagine that simply placing the connection to the DP in a
>junction box in an existing facility would require permits even in
>Wichita. Surely even inside the city limits the level isn't that great
>is it?
Most likely it wouldn't, but then, I'll never know because I'll never
ask the question. Within reason, I go according to the old adages "If
you think you won't like the answer, don't ask the question" and "It's
better to ask forgiveness than beg permission". But, technically,
you're modifying the permanent wiring of the facility and, if it's a
slow day in the inspector's office, that could bring code compliance
into question.
When I had the new shop built, the electrician just stubbed out
individual 240v 3 wire (2+G) circuits to disconnects for my air
compressor, cabinet saw, and cyclone. IIRC, he asked whether the loads
required 120/240 or just 240. Those circuits terminated at the
disconnects when the final inspection was passed. I wired the machines
into the disconnects myself, without bureaucratic hindrance.... er..
assistance..., after the final inspection, so the code enforcement
officers really have no true knowledge of how I configured those
connections.
(Yes, my TS is hard wired.)
I was thinking more in terms of the general case than the specific
instance of the DP. If a special purpose single phase circuit is run
for a machine that requires 120/240v, (driers and ranges come to mind
as the more common cases) current codes would require a 4-wire
circuit.
Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA
On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 20:27:10 -0700 (PDT), Hoosierpopi
<[email protected]> wrote:
>...
>Ignore the "colors" on the existing power cord - most 220 cords will
>be RED BLACK and WHITE with the first two the essential HOTS and the
>last the NEUTRAL.
If you're talking about the power cord, it will only have a neutral if
the appliance requires 120v as well as 240v - such as a range or
drier. A 240v tool such as a bandsaw rarely, if ever, requires 120v
simultaneously with the 240v. As such it will have only 3 wires in the
power card, the two "hots"and ground. Older installations of range and
drier connections were allowed to use the ground wire as the neutral
but the NEC prohibits that in new installations.
>
>The X and Y on the plug are not at all familiar - are you in the
>USofA? But the left and right pins should be the HOTS and the one in
>the center, the NEUTRAL What was the green wire tied to when you
>opened it up?
No. The "center" pin on NEMA 6 (250v two pole three wire grounding)
plugs and receptacles is for the ground wire (green/bare). There is no
neutral. The X and Y (and Z, for 3-phase) designation is standard
terminology in the NEMA configurations for the line connections.
Incidentally, the OP found his problem in the bandsaw's on/off switch.
Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA
On Tue, 16 Jun 2009 19:23:53 GMT, "Doug S" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Both connections are actually correct and accomplish the same thing.
Thanks, Doug. Without knowing what's on the other end of the leads,
it's not easy to see that the two schemes are equivalent.
Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA
On Thu, 18 Jun 2009 13:47:45 -0500, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Actually, bandsaws and drill presses that had/have built-in work lamps
>that do precisely the split voltage thing are fairly common ime (I have
>one of each, in fact)...
Don't have a bandsaw /w light, but do have a drill press with a dual
voltage motor and a work light. With the DP, to run the motor with
240, the light with 120, and meet the NEC requirement of no current in
the grounding conductor in normal operation, the "chassis" of the DP
would have to be rewired. It has a 3-wire (2+G) power cord and no
provision in the chassis wiring for a neutral. The manual for the DP
had a wiring diagram for 240v operation showing the light connected
between one of the lines and the ground wire. Since I've been unable
to find a 240v bulb that will fit in the light cavity, that's how I
have it connected. Does it or does it not meet NEC requirements? The
question is moot since the DP is a "temporary" plugin load and isn't
covered by the NEC. If it were hardwired, and the inspector understood
the situation, I'm sure it would be red-tagged.
If the NEC doesn't apply, would the UL list the DP in that
configuration? I suspect it would not since that diagram has been
removed from the current versions of the manual which is completely
silent on the 240v motor/120v light question.
Do your machines have a 4-wire cord and NEMA 14 plugs to a 4-wire
120/240 circuit?
Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA
"bob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1321c6f7-0bb7-4750-90f6-695751dbbf45@a36g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
I recently bought a used Rockwell bandsaw, which had been refitted
with a Baldor 1 hp motor, that was set up to run on 220V. I was told
that I could rewire it to run on 110V, which is all I have in my
garage. The saw ran on 220v when I tested it just fine.
So, I dutifully tried to make the change, but now it does not run.
Im hoping someone can tell me my mistake.
Heres what I did: The motor had 2 schematics on it, for low voltage
and one for high voltage. The high voltage schematic showed this:
wires #2/3/5 together; wire #1 alone (which I found to be connected to
the cords brown wire also); wire #4 to line (I found #4 to be
connected to the cords black wire); wires #J/8 together. This is, in
fact, how it was wired when I opened it up.
The second schematic showed this: wires #1/3/5 together (which I left
also connected to the cords brown wire); wire #4 to line (which I
left connected to the cords black wire); wires #2/J/8 together. I
reconnected things following this schematic (in other words, I moved
#2 from 2/3/5 to J/8 and connected 1/brown to 3/5; I left 4/black
alone).
[As a sidenote, the motor also indicated that to reverse rotation
interchange #5 and #8since #s 5 and 8 had been switched in the
existing wiring I found, and therefore rotation had already been
reversed, I also treated #5 as #8
including all of the descriptions
above, where Ive already substituted 5 for 8]
Then, I switched the male plug. The 220V plug had green, black, and
brown wires going to it; green connected to G, black connected to
Y, and brown connected to X. I put on a new 110V plug and
connected the green to the green screw, the black to the brass screw,
and the brown to the silver screw.
It does not turn on now. Please help! I really appreciate it. I
dont have much money and really need to get this working
------------------------------------------------------
I would take it to an electric motor shop. They could surely correct your
wiring while you wait.
My take on your message is:
"low voltage" means 110v. The usual 110v cord has a black (hot) wire, a
white (ground) wire, and a green (neutral) wire.
"high voltage" means 220v. The usual 220v cord has a black (hot) wire, a
red (hot) wire, and a green (neutral) wire. Sometimes other hot wire is
white instead of red.
Unless you have a multimeter to test continuity, you may not be able to
solve the problem by yourself.
What the schematics show is how to change the wiring of field coils from
being in parallel to being in series.
Jim
On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 14:49:38 -0500, Tom Veatch <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 14:13:01 -0500, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 11:55:26 -0500, Tom Veatch <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>Well, it's impossible for a straight 240v load to have any imbalance
>>>between the 120v legs unless there's a ground fault,
>>
>>Driers and ranges used ground as the neutral. they only used 120V for
>>the timers, so the *ground* current was deemed safe, saving a lot of
>>copper.
>>
>
>But those are not "straight" 240v loads since there is a requirement
>to supply 120v to driers and ranges.
Yes, I KNOW that, which is why I noted the small imbalance (I am an EE
- but this is not an EE group).
>It's not necessary to supply 120v
>to a 240v table saw.
I never said it was. I was talking about loads where there *is* a
120V component. I didn't use 12-3 to my table saw either.
>Supplying 120v in a 4-wire circuit certainly
>introduces an imbalance anytime the 120v is used. But for "straight"
>240v, there's no possibility of an imbalance between the legs.
> I think we're talking "apples and oranges" here.
I guess so!
>If I understand you correctly, you're saying that, according to
>current codes (perhaps local interpretations), ALL 240v circuits, even
>the branch circuits feeding the 240v tools in my shop, have to be
>wired with 4-wire circuits and NEMA 14 outlets. NEMA 14 because if
>NEMA 6 receptacles are used, there's no way to pass a neutral
>connection to the load. That implies that my tablesaw (3HP/240v) would
>have to have a NEMA 14 plug even though there's no neutral wire in the
>power cord to connect to the (unused) neutral prong.
No, I'm saying that 4-wires (H-N-G-H) are _now_ required for all loads
with a 120V component, but that this has only been the case for a
short while. Up until perhaps ten or fifteen years ago loads with a
small 120V component (dryers and ranges) could get away with a shared
neutral-ground. These applications are grandfathered in existing
homes, so they are still prevalent. Any application that has no 120V
component (table saws and air conditioners, etc.) still do not require
a neutral. There would be nothing to connect one to[*]. ;-) For the
most part, the NEC makes perfect sense.
[*] At my PPoE the safety "experts" demanded a three-wire plug on a
plastic clock, so my tech connected the green wire to a lug screwed to
the plastic case. They were happy. :-/
>My shop was wired within the last 7 years by licensed electricians and
>passed by local code enforcement officers. Straight 240v branch
>circuits were not required to be 4-wire circuits nor did they require
>NEMA 14 outlets. In fact, except for the connection of the white wires
>to one pole of a double pole breaker instead of the neutral bus, and
>the presence of NEMA 6 instead of NEMA 5 outlets, they are identical
>to a 120v circuit. The neutral conductor is simply not used or needed
>for a circuit that supplies ONLY 240v.
Yes, this is fine, other than there should *NOT* be a white wire on
the breaker, nor in the outlet box. This wire should have been
"painted" red or black (I used red Sharpie when I installed my table
saw recently). The only drawback I see to this is that the Romex
isn't marked as 240V (it runs next to a 120V circuit). If someone
taps into this thinking it's a 120V circuit he's going to get a
surprise. I don't see a reasonable alternative, though.
I hope I cleared up any miscommunication.
OK, scratch everything I posted except where I said to take the motor to an
electrical motor repair place. You should always follow the electrical
code, and what I posted may not be in agreement with that document.
Jim
"Jim" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> By the way, do not use the 2 wire + ground cable for 220v. You need the
> kind which has a real insulated neutral wire in addition to insulated hot
> wires.
> Jim
> "Jim" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>I was describing cords for two different voltages. The black wire is
>>always hot. The green wire is always neutral (or ground more or less).
>>In 110 cords, the neutral wire is white. In 110 cords, the other hot wire
>>can be red or white or (I suppose in the OP's case) brown. Some people
>>say that if you are using three wire romex (which has black and white
>>wires with a bare ground wire), you are supposed to paint the end of the
>>white wires black to indicate that it is hot. I have only seen a green
>>wire in 220v circuits (it is neutral which is not necessarily ground).
>>
>> I believe that the OP is in over his head and should take the motor to
>> an electrical motor shop.
>>
>> Jim
>> "John G." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Warning Warning.
>>>
>>> Jim has his colours mixed up.
>>> GREEN is GROUND and NOT Neutral
>>> In the US White is neutral not Red.
>>> In fact red is not used in most places in line cords today.
>>> Red was GROUND in Germany many years ago.
>>> Blue is generally neutral in 230volt countries and brown or black for
>>> Line or active..
>>> Be careful. If you are not sure get some professional help.
>>>
>>> John G.
>>>
>>> "Jim" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>
>>>> "bob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:1321c6f7-0bb7-4750-90f6-695751dbbf45@a36g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
>>>> I recently bought a used Rockwell bandsaw, which had been refitted
>>>> with a Baldor 1 hp motor, that was set up to run on 220V. I was told
>>>> that I could rewire it to run on 110V, which is all I have in my
>>>> garage. The saw ran on 220v when I tested it just fine.
>>>>
>>>> So, I dutifully tried to make the change, but now it does not run.
>>>> I'm hoping someone can tell me my mistake.
>>>>
>>>> Here's what I did: The motor had 2 schematics on it, for "low voltage"
>>>> and one for "high voltage." The high voltage schematic showed this:
>>>> wires #2/3/5 together; wire #1 alone (which I found to be connected to
>>>> the cord's brown wire also); wire #4 to "line" (I found #4 to be
>>>> connected to the cord's black wire); wires #J/8 together. This is, in
>>>> fact, how it was wired when I opened it up.
>>>>
>>>> The second schematic showed this: wires #1/3/5 together (which I left
>>>> also connected to the cord's brown wire); wire #4 to "line" (which I
>>>> left connected to the cord's black wire); wires #2/J/8 together. I
>>>> reconnected things following this schematic (in other words, I moved
>>>> #2 from 2/3/5 to J/8 and connected 1/brown to 3/5; I left 4/black
>>>> alone).
>>>>
>>>> [As a sidenote, the motor also indicated that "to reverse rotation
>>>> interchange #5 and #8"-since #s 5 and 8 had been switched in the
>>>> existing wiring I found, and therefore rotation had already been
>>>> reversed, I also treated #5 as #8.including all of the descriptions
>>>> above, where I've already substituted 5 for 8]
>>>>
>>>> Then, I switched the male plug. The 220V plug had green, black, and
>>>> brown wires going to it; green connected to "G", black connected to
>>>> "Y", and brown connected to "X". I put on a new 110V plug and
>>>> connected the green to the green screw, the black to the brass screw,
>>>> and the brown to the silver screw.
>>>>
>>>> It does not turn on now. Please help! I really appreciate it. I
>>>> don't have much money and really need to get this working.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------
>>>> I would take it to an electric motor shop. They could surely correct
>>>> your wiring while you wait.
>>>>
>>>> My take on your message is:
>>>>
>>>> "low voltage" means 110v. The usual 110v cord has a black (hot) wire,
>>>> a white (ground) wire, and a green (neutral) wire.
>>>> "high voltage" means 220v. The usual 220v cord has a black (hot) wire,
>>>> a red (hot) wire, and a green (neutral) wire. Sometimes other hot wire
>>>> is white instead of red.
>>>>
>>>> Unless you have a multimeter to test continuity, you may not be able to
>>>> solve the problem by yourself.
>>>>
>>>> What the schematics show is how to change the wiring of field coils
>>>> from being in parallel to being in series.
>>>> Jim
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 10:55:47 -0500, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>I believe that is true now, however up until recently 3-wire 240V
>(H-G-H) were permitted as long as there wasn't a "significant"
>imbalance in the 120V legs. Driers and ranges usually did not have a
>neutral. As you point out, they do now but there are a lot of houses
>already wired with 3-wire circuits and they are still permitted.
Well, it's impossible for a straight 240v load to have any imbalance
between the 120v legs unless there's a ground fault, and using the
equipment grounding conductor as the neutral for the 120v supply in a
dual voltage appliance is a big NO-NO in the NEC. Just for my
education, do you know when the NEC last allowed that?
Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA
On Sat, 13 Jun 2009 20:14:42 -0500, "Jim" <[email protected]> wrote:
>By the way, do not use the 2 wire + ground cable for 220v. You need the
>kind which has a real insulated neutral wire in addition to insulated hot
>wires.
>Jim
2+ground is fine for a 240 volt circuit. 240v circuits do not use a
neutral wire unless it's a multiwire circuit (like for a range, dryer,
etc) that has to supply 120v as well as 240. Straight 240v only uses 2
hots and a ground.
Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA
On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 14:13:01 -0500, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 11:55:26 -0500, Tom Veatch <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Well, it's impossible for a straight 240v load to have any imbalance
>>between the 120v legs unless there's a ground fault,
>
>Driers and ranges used ground as the neutral. they only used 120V for
>the timers, so the *ground* current was deemed safe, saving a lot of
>copper.
>
But those are not "straight" 240v loads since there is a requirement
to supply 120v to driers and ranges. It's not necessary to supply 120v
to a 240v table saw. Supplying 120v in a 4-wire circuit certainly
introduces an imbalance anytime the 120v is used. But for "straight"
240v, there's no possibility of an imbalance between the legs.
I think we're talking "apples and oranges" here.
If I understand you correctly, you're saying that, according to
current codes (perhaps local interpretations), ALL 240v circuits, even
the branch circuits feeding the 240v tools in my shop, have to be
wired with 4-wire circuits and NEMA 14 outlets. NEMA 14 because if
NEMA 6 receptacles are used, there's no way to pass a neutral
connection to the load. That implies that my tablesaw (3HP/240v) would
have to have a NEMA 14 plug even though there's no neutral wire in the
power cord to connect to the (unused) neutral prong.
My shop was wired within the last 7 years by licensed electricians and
passed by local code enforcement officers. Straight 240v branch
circuits were not required to be 4-wire circuits nor did they require
NEMA 14 outlets. In fact, except for the connection of the white wires
to one pole of a double pole breaker instead of the neutral bus, and
the presence of NEMA 6 instead of NEMA 5 outlets, they are identical
to a 120v circuit. The neutral conductor is simply not used or needed
for a circuit that supplies ONLY 240v.
>> and using the
>>equipment grounding conductor as the neutral for the 120v supply in a
>>dual voltage appliance is a big NO-NO in the NEC.
>
>It wasn't until recently. Like most code, this has been grand
>fathered. There is no requirement to change existing homes.
>
>>Just for my
>>education, do you know when the NEC last allowed that?
>
>Don't remember the dates, but it's been in the last 20 years. My last
>house (built in '86) had a three wire connection to the dryer, but
>four to the range. Both were aluminum. :-(
Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA