Undermount Drawers Slides For Stick Built Cabinets?

On 12/31/2014 10:31 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 31, 2014 9:42:55 AM UTC-5, Mike wrote:
>> On 12/30/2014 3:10 PM, Swingman wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> ~ An alternate method that, while it takes a tiny bit of shop time in
>>> making these, the time spent is made up tenfold when installing new
>>> drawers in old face frame cabinets, particularly in built-in cabinets
>>> and when the counter top is still on:
>>>
>>> https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopJigsFixturesMethods?noredirect=1#6098721408138140050
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Thanks. I had been wondering how I was going to install side mounts on
>> my existing kitchen cabinet drawers. Now I know.
>>
>> Mike
>
> Just be aware that you need at least an inch of space for the mounts - 1/2" on each side.
>
> My current no-slide drawers basically fill the RO of the space frame, so adapting them for slides would be problematic. I'm going to lose an inch of width on each new drawer, but I'll get it all back (and more) in depth, not only in the drawer box itself but also based on the fact that I'll be using full extension slides.
>
> My new drawers will be ~22" deep, which is at least 4" deeper than my current drawers.
>

I got lucky and there is 1/2 inch on either side. The current slides
are the clunky things that hook to the bottom of each side of the
drawer, but project fron the side.

On Monday, December 29, 2014 4:21:19 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:

>=20
> I always make my face frames so there is 1/2" (or more) space between the=
=20
> FF edge and cabinet side; I pack out the side to that I have a surface=
=20
> flush with the FF edge on which to mount the slide..
>=20

These are stick built cabinets with no "cabinet side", except at the very e=
nds. For example, picture 4 doors that open into one large space with a cab=
inet side only at the 2 ends. There is nothing to mount slides to, unless I=
install something, which of course I could do.=20

I guess I'll have to go look at some actual slides at the borg just to get =
an idea of what would be required. I probably won't but then there, but it'=
ll give me an idea of my options.

On Wednesday, December 31, 2014 9:42:55 AM UTC-5, Mike wrote:
> On 12/30/2014 3:10 PM, Swingman wrote:
>=20
> >
> > ~ An alternate method that, while it takes a tiny bit of shop time in
> > making these, the time spent is made up tenfold when installing new
> > drawers in old face frame cabinets, particularly in built-in cabinets
> > and when the counter top is still on:
> >
> > https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopJigsFixture=
sMethods?noredirect=3D1#6098721408138140050
> >
> >
>=20
> Thanks. I had been wondering how I was going to install side mounts on=
=20
> my existing kitchen cabinet drawers. Now I know.
>=20
> Mike

Just be aware that you need at least an inch of space for the mounts - 1/2"=
on each side.=20

My current no-slide drawers basically fill the RO of the space frame, so ad=
apting them for slides would be problematic. I'm going to lose an inch of w=
idth on each new drawer, but I'll get it all back (and more) in depth, not =
only in the drawer box itself but also based on the fact that I'll be using=
full extension slides.

My new drawers will be ~22" deep, which is at least 4" deeper than my curre=
nt drawers.

On Tuesday, December 30, 2014 12:28:45 PM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:
> On 12/29/2014 2:14 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>=20
> > Are there undermount drawer slides that will sit on the existing runner=
s or do the runners have to be removed or can they be left in place and the=
slides installed some other way?
> >
> > If undermounts are impractical in this situation, what are my other cho=
ices?
> >
> > Thanks for your (gentle) guidance.
>=20
> From the linked photo, I see no reason why you can't use a full=20
> extension, undermount drawer slide.
>=20
> I've used both Hettich and KV MUV's extensively, and either should work=
=20
> from what can be seen in your photo.
>=20
> Although I like them very much, I have found Hettich to be more fussy in=
=20
> dimensioning the drawer, as well as in installation; so have basically=20
> switched over to the KV MUV softclose undermounts for large projects.
>=20
> You will want to download, and study carefully, the installation guides=
=20
> from the retailer or manufacturer, with regard to width and drawer=20
> height, as well as the required space between the bottom edge of the=20
> drawer side, and the bottom side of the drawer bottom.
>=20
> Obviously, you will lose some drawer height versus side mount drawers.

>=20
> First and foremost is to understand clearly that drawers must be built=20
> to fairly exacting specs for this type of drawer slide, so if you are=20
> planning on using them, do NOT to fail to purchase your drawer slides=20
> FIRST, BEFORE you fabricate the drawers.

As I think about what we have in the drawers now, I don't know that I want =
to lose any height. The idea of undermount slides was more for appearance, =
but in the end if I'm going to lose height and have to be extremely exactin=
g in the construction, I may forgo the use of undermounts. The rest of the =
kitchen is, in general, not really worthy of the use of undermounts. Should=
I some day decide to gut the entire room, that's when I can think about ge=
tting fancy.

>=20
> Having built literally hundreds of drawers for undermount slides, I have=
=20
> devised a spreadsheet for dimensioning drawer parts based on the=20
> installation requirements for the KV MUV's that allows me to input=20
> cabinet rough opening (width and height) material thickness, and slide=20
> length, and it will spit out the appropriate dimensions for drawer=20
> sides, backs, fronts, and bottoms.
>=20
> I usually use half blind dovetail drawer fronts, so the calculator takes=
=20
> that into account, but that can be easily changed.
>=20
> Can easily email a copy to anyone who would find it useful.
>=20
> NOTE: Don't let the lack of cabinet "sides" in the drawer opening hold=20
> you back, I can show you a simple way around that which also insures a=20
> square installation in non-square, existing cabinets.

I'd love to hear your suggestions on converting my existing runners into wh=
atever it takes to use slides, and most probably side mounts.

Here's the link to the picture once again. I can provide any other pictures=
that you might find helpful. Thanks!

http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/StickBuiltDrawerRunners=
_zps0449775f.jpg


>=20
> --=20
> eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
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> http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
> KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Wednesday, December 31, 2014 10:31:21 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:


> My current no-slide drawers basically fill the RO of the *space* frame,


RO of the *face* frame

On 12/31/2014 8:00 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

> On Tuesday, December 30, 2014 5:21:42 PM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:
>> >On 12/30/2014 3:33 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> > >Bench testing the drawer and slides on their actual mounts...who would have thunk it!
>> >
>> >Actually, I transport the drawers and mounts as one unit

> I'm not sure what you mean by that.

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/6LbTJEUufA7bMqaMESog2AEx58zJow4h38rE7KES89Y?feat=directlink

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On 12/30/2014 2:29 PM, Leon wrote:

> I think I will shoot for 1-1/16" under next time. It seems the more
> precise my fit the more touchy the fit becomes.

Except in really bad openings, I find 1/16" under works better than
1/8", because the manufacturer usually states a 1/16" tolerance in their
specs, so many times you don't even need to shim if you're only 1/16"
narrower.

Still, and unless you or I made the cabinet boxes, I'm going to
purposely err on the narrower side for drawer width every time.

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On Tuesday, December 30, 2014 3:12:00 PM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:
> On 12/30/2014 12:35 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > As I think about what we have in the drawers now, I don't know that I w=
ant to lose any height. The idea of undermount slides was more for appearan=
ce, but in the end if I'm going to lose height and have to be extremely exa=
cting in the construction, I may forgo the use of undermounts. The rest of =
the kitchen is, in general, not really worthy of the use of undermounts. Sh=
ould I some day decide to gut the entire room, that's when I can think abou=
t getting fancy.
>=20
> Yep, although it can be done to good effect, installing "Tier 1"=20
> drawers, in "Tier 3" or "Tier 4" cabinets, is generally not worth the=20
> time and expense.
>=20
> > I'd love to hear your suggestions on converting my existing runners int=
o whatever it takes to use slides, and most probably side mounts.
>=20
> ~ If you're going with modern, side mounted, ball bearing drawer slides,=
=20
> simply purchase the "back mounting brackets" made for the particular slid=
e.
>=20
> If the back of the built-in cabinet is the actual wall of the room, and=
=20
> covered with drywall or other soft wall covering, you will want to=20
> simply attach a wood/plywood strip along the back (screwed to stud) to=20
> screw the bacl brackets to.

The back wall is the room wall, but it's 3/8" plaster over 3/8" rock lath. =
It basically looks like this and is a pain to anchor stuff to.=20

http://i.imgur.com/AHFB8.jpg

There is already a cleat across the back wall but I'll have to see if it is=
positioned correctly for use with rear brackets, although I really like th=
e 3 sided mounting system you've suggested.

>=20
> With many drawer slides you can also purchase face frame brackets.
>=20
> If the existing FF is plywood, you may want to consider the use of a=20
> these FF brackets.

Existing FF is pine, I believe. In any case, it's not plywood. The house wa=
s built in 1956.

>=20
> While most modern drawer slides have a single hole positioned to screw=20
> the front of the slide to the face frame, you may find that with older=20
> plywood face frames, the installation will be more secure using the two=
=20
> screw holes available on the FF brackets.
>=20
> ~ An alternate method that, while it takes a tiny bit of shop time in=20
> making these, the time spent is made up tenfold when installing new=20
> drawers in old face frame cabinets, particularly in built-in cabinets=20
> and when the counter top is still on:
>=20
>=20

https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopJigsFixturesMet=
hods?noredirect=3D1#6098721408138140050

This I like! Easy enough to build in the shop and will probably sit nicely =
atop the existing structure inside the cabinets. It sounds especially nice =
for the smaller drawers where space is extremely limited. The single piece =
installation has some serious merit.

> No need to get fancy, use scraps and finish nails/staple - just make=20
> sure the three sided contraption is square by using 45 degree angle=20
> brackets made with 1/4" plywood.
>=20
> The sides can be made a bit shorter than the cabinet depth and shimmed=20
> to the back wall if necessary, or made short enough to attach to a=20
> plywood board nailed to the studs on a drywall wall.
>=20
> Key is the back board dimension.
>=20
> If you make it the EXACT width of your _cabinet drawer opening_ , and=20
> make sure both sides are perpendicular by using the simple corner=20
> brackets, it is pretty much guaranteed to give you a perfect=20
> installation without a lot of hassle.
>=20
> Basically, if the drawer works smoothly during a test mount in the shop,=
=20
> they will work smoothly after installation onsite.

Bench testing the drawer and slides on their actual mounts...who would have=
thunk it!

Thanks!

Be on the lookout for my hinge questions. :-)

On Tuesday, December 30, 2014 12:17:07 PM UTC-5, Larry Blanchard wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Dec 2014 05:41:55 -0500, dadiOH wrote:
>
> > I couldn't tell from the photo but was thinking that the existing wood
> > slides might serve. If not, there is plenty of room to add something
> > for attachment of the cabinet member of the slides.
>
> That was my thought. I've built several cabinets with no slides. If the
> runners are too rough, replace them or sand them smooth. Then use
> beeswax on them and the bottom of the drawer sides.

Thanks for the suggestion, but after 35 years of wood-on-wood drawers, with no soft close and no full extension, SWMBO and I are ready for an upgrade. Some of the runners are so badly worn and grooved that they are beyond sanding.

Since replacing all of the runners would be required, I'd just as soon add a piece of stock on top of what is already there and attach my slides to that.

On Sunday, January 4, 2015 12:28:44 PM UTC-5, Electric Comet wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Dec 2014 12:14:36 -0800 (PST)
> DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote:
>=20
> > If undermounts are impractical in this situation, what are my other
> > choices?
>=20
>=20
> Other option is to use wood only.=20

I appreciate the suggestion, but I want to use full extension, soft close s=
lides.=20

Since my new drawers will be 5" deeper than my old ones, wood-on-wood (whic=
h is what I have now) would be cumbersome. The new drawers will be about 22=
" deep, which I think is a little deep to be pulling out and hanging onto w=
hile trying to get stuff from the back of the drawer.

On Wednesday, December 31, 2014 12:40:00 PM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:
> On 12/31/2014 8:00 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>=20
> > On Tuesday, December 30, 2014 5:21:42 PM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:
> >> >On 12/30/2014 3:33 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >>> > >Bench testing the drawer and slides on their actual mounts...who w=
ould have thunk it!
> >> >
> >> >Actually, I transport the drawers and mounts as one unit
>=20
> > I'm not sure what you mean by that.
>=20
> https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/6LbTJEUufA7bMqaMESog2AEx58zJow4h38r=
E7KES89Y?feat=3Ddirectlink
>=20

That's not what I meant! :-)

I could picture what you meant when you said you "transport the drawers and=
mounts as one unit" but I don't now why you responded to me with that stat=
ement. Let's condense and recap:

You said: "Basically, if the drawer works smoothly during a test mount in t=
he shop, they will work smoothly after installation onsite."

To which I replied: "Bench testing the drawer and slides on their actual mo=
unts...who would have thunk it!" meaning that I never would have thought of=
building (and tweaking) the parts on the bench because I never would have =
thought to build a frame for the slides as opposed to doing everything with=
in the cabinet itself: Add supports, add slides, hope the drawers fit, etc.

Therefore when you say "Actually, I transport the drawers and mounts as one=
unit" I don't know what you mean in the context of what I said. I didn't s=
ay anything about transporting the units, I was talking about your excellen=
t concept of the bench-build to ease the final installation. Obviously you =
must have thought I meant something else since you brought up the matter of=
"transport".

So the question is: What did you think I meant that prompted that response?

On 12/30/2014 3:33 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> Bench testing the drawer and slides on their actual mounts...who would have thunk it!

Actually, I transport the drawers and mounts as one unit

> Thanks!

Por nada...

> Be on the lookout for my hinge questions.

Will do. I deal with so many types of hinges for different spec'ed
cabinets that I keep a mocked up cabinet side around to make sure they
live up to their billing and so I can drill the cup holes where they
work the best:

https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopJigsFixturesMethods?noredirect=1#6098758717974020466


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On 12/31/2014 2:42 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

> I'm confused again. What parts are you talking about removing?

The reference to "offending parts" meant anything (even though it might
be a necessary structural part in its original state) that was required
by the old drawer installation, but will now interfere with the new
drawer installation.

Not limited to, but similar to these old drawer runners which are both
no longer needed, and which will interfere with the new installation:

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/CqTpzc_GlVCCqxtCG2SRqtMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink

Or no longer needed partitions where new pullout shelving (on drawer
slides) are being planned:

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ZEGWqkfM6n3nbJ60K-wAPdMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink

Same here:

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/7KcmVpijs2wD5FuwsxNYa9MTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink


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On 12/31/2014 2:33 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 31, 2014 12:40:00 PM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:
>> On 12/31/2014 8:00 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>
>>> On Tuesday, December 30, 2014 5:21:42 PM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:
>>>>> On 12/30/2014 3:33 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>>>> Bench testing the drawer and slides on their actual mounts...who would have thunk it!
>>>>>
>>>>> Actually, I transport the drawers and mounts as one unit
>>
>>> I'm not sure what you mean by that.
>>
>> https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/6LbTJEUufA7bMqaMESog2AEx58zJow4h38rE7KES89Y?feat=directlink
>>
>
> That's not what I meant! :-)
>
> I could picture what you meant when you said you "transport the drawers and mounts as one unit" but I don't now why you responded to me with that statement. Let's condense and recap:
>
> You said: "Basically, if the drawer works smoothly during a test mount in the shop, they will work smoothly after installation onsite."
>
> To which I replied: "Bench testing the drawer and slides on their actual mounts...who would have thunk it!" meaning that I never would have thought of building (and tweaking) the parts on the bench because I never would have thought to build a frame for the slides as opposed to doing everything within the cabinet itself: Add supports, add slides, hope the drawers fit, etc.
>
> Therefore when you say "Actually, I transport the drawers and mounts as one unit" I don't know what you mean in the context of what I said. I didn't say anything about transporting the units, I was talking about your excellent concept of the bench-build to ease the final installation. Obviously you must have thought I meant something else since you brought up the matter of "transport".
>
> So the question is: What did you think I meant that prompted that response?
>
>
>
Basically he and I both in many instances build a drawer unit that
slides into place in existing cabinets. All that is needed at the job
site is to simply anchor the drawer unit in to place. Absolutely no
tweaking needed as that was all done when fitting the drawers to the
drawer unit.

Think of it as building a chest with drawers for a room in your house.
Instead you mount that chest inside of an existing cabinet.

On 12/31/2014 9:33 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

> RO of the *face* frame

Actually, I often remove those offending parts when retrofitting with
new drawers in those old style built-in cabinets.

While they may be "structural" to some degree (keeping the face frames
attached to the back wall), to maintain any structural integrity the
offending part can often either be moved to another location that will
be out of the way of the new drawer and its supports, or structural
integrity can be maintained, and made even more robust, with the
addition of the new, three sided "drawer frame".

Being already attached to the back wall, it is easy to add increased
structural rigidity to the cabinetry with a couple of finish nails
through the face frame and into the two drawer frame sides ... just
don't hit a hit a screw.

Granted you will have to touch up the stain/paint on the exterior face
frame, but that is a minor issue, easily solved.

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On 12/30/2014 3:10 PM, Swingman wrote:

>
> ~ An alternate method that, while it takes a tiny bit of shop time in
> making these, the time spent is made up tenfold when installing new
> drawers in old face frame cabinets, particularly in built-in cabinets
> and when the counter top is still on:
>
> https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopJigsFixturesMethods?noredirect=1#6098721408138140050
>
>

Thanks. I had been wondering how I was going to install side mounts on
my existing kitchen cabinet drawers. Now I know.

Mike

On 12/29/2014 2:14 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> Happy Holidays!
>
> I am planning to build new drawers for some stick-built kitchen cabinets. I would like to use full extension, soft close, undermount slides, but having no experience with drawer slides, I don't know if it's practical.
>
> The following link shows the view through one of the drawer openings. As you can see, there is currently a 1" wide runner that the edges of the existing drawers simply ride on. The picture shows the right hand runner for the drawer that was removed and the left hand runner for the next drawer over, which is pulled out about 1/2 way. (The yellow vinyl tape on was an attempt to make the runner a little more slippery.)
>
> I should note that 2 of the 5 drawers have runners that are only ~3/4" - 11/16" wide, not the full 1" shown in the picture.
>
> http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/StickBuiltDrawerRunners_zps0449775f.jpg
>
> The cabinets are ~24" deep, from the back of the face frame to the back wall. The back wall of the cabinets is actually the plaster wall of the house, although there is a cleat that the runners are attached to.
>
> I would like the drawers to be as deep as possible. I've seen some 22" slides, which means the drawer boxes have to be 22" long, right?
>
> The drawers will be made from either 1/2" Baltic Birch plywood or 1/2" poplar. (opinions welcome, as I'm new at this)
>
> Are there undermount drawer slides that will sit on the existing runners or do the runners have to be removed or can they be left in place and the slides installed some other way?
>
> If undermounts are impractical in this situation, what are my other choices?
>
> Thanks for your (gentle) guidance.
>


Undermounts are nice but can be quite pricey and there is not much
wiggle room as far as length is concerned. I never use them but
Swingman uses them quite often.

That said if you can tolerate seeing the slide I can recommend the
standard type side mount full extension soft close.

A brand that I have been using lately are G-Slide, I understand tthat
they are manufactured by KV. These "soft" close slides tend to be less
expensive that standard slides of the same style.

http://www.cabinethardware.com/G-Slide-4270-100LB-Full-Ext-Slide-with-Soft-Close-p/1012.htm?1=1&CartID=0

On 12/29/2014 7:18 PM, Leon wrote:

> Do you seriously make your drawers as much as 1/8" too narrow?

When you and/or I make the cabinets, I use the recommended width.

But, I most often purposely err on the narrow side when retrofitting
existing cabinets, especially the built in variety with plywood face
frames that are notoriously different in width dimension from top to
bottom of the drawer opening.

If there is any variation in the same rough opening noted when measuring
the cabinets, and when using normal duty drawer slides (under the heavy
duty class) which require the drawer width to be 1" less than the
cabinet rough opening, I err on the narrow side by at least a 1/16".

IOW, in those instances I may make the drawer 1 1/16" to 1 1/8" narrower
than the opening, instead of 1".

Soooo much easier to shim a drawer side onsite, than to cut one down
that is too wide for the opening, especially in this
"plastic/polypropolyne shim" age. ;)

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On Wednesday, December 31, 2014 11:54:36 AM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:
> On 12/31/2014 9:33 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>=20
> > RO of the *face* frame
>=20
> Actually, I often remove those offending parts when retrofitting with=20
> new drawers in those old style built-in cabinets.
>
=20
I'm confused again. What parts are you talking about removing?

You can't use your slide frame method on drawers that are as wide as the fa=
ce frame opening, can you? Maybe I shouldn't have used "RO" in my post. I m=
eant the actual opening of the face face where the drawer goes in. Doesn't =
the drawer need to be 1" narrower than that opening to use side slides?

I was responding to Mike who said he was going to use your frame idea to ad=
d slides to his *existing* drawers. I was pointing out that he needed to be=
sure he could actually add slides to his existing drawers based on their w=
idth. In my case, I could not because the existing drawers are as wide as t=
he FF opening and don't have the inch of clearance required to add slides.

On Thursday, January 1, 2015 1:27:12 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
> On 12/31/2014 2:33 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 31, 2014 12:40:00 PM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:
> >> On 12/31/2014 8:00 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Tuesday, December 30, 2014 5:21:42 PM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:
> >>>>> On 12/30/2014 3:33 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >>>>>>> Bench testing the drawer and slides on their actual mounts...who =
would have thunk it!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Actually, I transport the drawers and mounts as one unit
> >>
> >>> I'm not sure what you mean by that.
> >>
> >> https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/6LbTJEUufA7bMqaMESog2AEx58zJow4h=
38rE7KES89Y?feat=3Ddirectlink
> >>
> >
> > That's not what I meant! :-)
> >
> > I could picture what you meant when you said you "transport the drawers=
and mounts as one unit" but I don't now why you responded to me with that =
statement. Let's condense and recap:
> >
> > You said: "Basically, if the drawer works smoothly during a test mount =
in the shop, they will work smoothly after installation onsite."
> >
> > To which I replied: "Bench testing the drawer and slides on their actua=
l mounts...who would have thunk it!" meaning that I never would have though=
t of building (and tweaking) the parts on the bench because I never would h=
ave thought to build a frame for the slides as opposed to doing everything =
within the cabinet itself: Add supports, add slides, hope the drawers fit, =
etc.
> >
> > Therefore when you say "Actually, I transport the drawers and mounts as=
one unit" I don't know what you mean in the context of what I said. I didn=
't say anything about transporting the units, I was talking about your exce=
llent concept of the bench-build to ease the final installation. Obviously =
you must have thought I meant something else since you brought up the matte=
r of "transport".
> >
> > So the question is: What did you think I meant that prompted that respo=
nse?
> >
> >
> >
> Basically he and I both in many instances build a drawer unit that=20
> slides into place in existing cabinets. All that is needed at the job=20
> site is to simply anchor the drawer unit in to place. Absolutely no=20
> tweaking needed as that was all done when fitting the drawers to the=20
> drawer unit.
>=20
> Think of it as building a chest with drawers for a room in your house.=20
> Instead you mount that chest inside of an existing cabinet.

Yes, I understood that part.=20

My "I'm not sure what you mean by that" response was based on the fact that=
I hadn't said anything that warranted Swingman's "transport" comment. He h=
as since clarified the reason for that response and we're all good.

On Tuesday, December 30, 2014 5:21:42 PM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:
> On 12/30/2014 3:33 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > Bench testing the drawer and slides on their actual mounts...who would =
have thunk it!
>=20
> Actually, I transport the drawers and mounts as one unit

I'm not sure what you mean by that. I was merely mentioning that I never wo=
uld have thought of building a frame with slides and making sure everything=
fit before installing them in the cabinet.

BTW...I threw together a sample frame and drawer last night using an old ch=
eap drawer slide that I had lying around. I used the Kreg Pocket Hole jig t=
hat the kids bought me for Christmas to build the slide frame. The pocket h=
ole construction made the frame square so there was no need for the corner =
braces. I only have 4 frames to build, so I may just pocket hole them all i=
nstead of cutting braces, tacking them on, etc. I'll ensure they are perfec=
tly square when I attach them to the existing cabinet framework.

I discovered that the cabinet on the far left of the counter butts up again=
st a tall cabinet and has a side wall that is flush with the face frame. Th=
e right side is "open" like the rest of the cabinets, but the left side has=
a wall, so I can't use the three sided frame for that cabinet. Obviously t=
he left hand slide will have to be mounted to that side panel and I'll need=
to make a support to hold the right hand slide. No biggy, just won't be a =
bench-built frame like the other 4. Of course, it happens to be one of the =
narrower cabinets, so the one that will required the most in-cabinet work i=
s also the most cramped.=20

>=20
> > Thanks!
>=20
> Por nada...
>=20
> > Be on the lookout for my hinge questions.
>=20
> Will do. I deal with so many types of hinges for different spec'ed=20
> cabinets that I keep a mocked up cabinet side around to make sure they=20
> live up to their billing and so I can drill the cup holes where they=20
> work the best:
>=20
> https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopJigsFixturesM=
ethods?noredirect=3D1#6098758717974020466
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
> Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
> https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
> https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
> http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
> KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 12/29/2014 3:21 PM, dadiOH wrote:
> The outside width of the drawers must be 1" less than the face frame
> opening but I sometimes make it 1/8" or so less to accomodate any
> irregularities that might have crept in during my sometimes less than
> precise construction :) I just shim out the slides on the drawer as
> needed. If your case is less than square, you could do the same thing.

+1

Undoubtedly, the voice of experience speaking. :)


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On 12/30/2014 11:47 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 12/29/2014 7:18 PM, Leon wrote:
>
>> Do you seriously make your drawers as much as 1/8" too narrow?
>
> When you and/or I make the cabinets, I use the recommended width.
>
> But, I most often purposely err on the narrow side when retrofitting
> existing cabinets, especially the built in variety with plywood face
> frames that are notoriously different in width dimension from top to
> bottom of the drawer opening.
>
> If there is any variation in the same rough opening noted when measuring
> the cabinets, and when using normal duty drawer slides (under the heavy
> duty class) which require the drawer width to be 1" less than the
> cabinet rough opening, I err on the narrow side by at least a 1/16".
>
> IOW, in those instances I may make the drawer 1 1/16" to 1 1/8" narrower
> than the opening, instead of 1".
>
> Soooo much easier to shim a drawer side onsite, than to cut one down
> that is too wide for the opening, especially in this
> "plastic/polypropolyne shim" age. ;)
>
Glad to hear your seconding the approach. I typically install the
cabinet side of the slides and the drawer side part of the slide, and
then tweak the drawer fronts to just kiss the slides. It can be touchy
tight if the slides are not absolutely as wide in the back as the front.

I think I will shoot for 1-1/16" under next time. It seems the more
precise my fit the more touchy the fit becomes.

< snips >

>
> I guess I'll have to go look at some actual slides at the borg
> just to get an idea of what would be required. I probably won't
> buy them there, but it'll give me an idea of my options.
>


The Lee Valley web site often provides additional info -
example below - might be of some help to you <?>

http://www.leevalley.com/en/shopping/Instructions.aspx?p=55602

John T.


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: [email protected] ---

"DerbyDad03" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Happy Holidays!
>
> I am planning to build new drawers for some stick-built kitchen
> cabinets.
> I would like to use full extension, soft close, undermount slides, but
> having no experience with drawer slides, I don't know if it's practical.
>
> The following link shows the view through one of the drawer openings. As
> you can see, there is currently a 1" wide runner that the edges of the
> existing drawers simply ride on. The picture shows the right hand runner
> for the drawer that was removed and the left hand runner for the next
> drawer over, which is pulled out about 1/2 way. (The yellow vinyl tape
> on
> was an attempt to make the runner a little more slippery.)
>
> I should note that 2 of the 5 drawers have runners that are only ~3/4" -
> 11/16" wide, not the full 1" shown in the picture.
>
> http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/StickBuiltDrawerRunners_zps0449775f.jpg
>
> The cabinets are ~24" deep, from the back of the face frame to the back
> wall. The back wall of the cabinets is actually the plaster wall of the
> house, although there is a cleat that the runners are attached to.
>
> I would like the drawers to be as deep as possible. I've seen some 22"
> slides, which means the drawer boxes have to be 22" long, right?
>
> The drawers will be made from either 1/2" Baltic Birch plywood or 1/2"
> poplar. (opinions welcome, as I'm new at this)
>
> Are there undermount drawer slides that will sit on the existing runners
> or do the runners have to be removed or can they be left in place and
> the
> slides installed some other way?
>
> If undermounts are impractical in this situation, what are my other
> choices?
>
> Thanks for your (gentle) guidance.

Like Leon, I have never used undermount slides so can offer no advice
about them. However, I have a couple of comments...

1. 24" slides are readily available. KV is a good brand.

2. If for any reason you can't use undermount slides, it looks as if it
would be simple to use side mounts. They need a place in the box to attach
them but it shouldn't be to hard to do so using the existing drawer
slides. They need 1/2" on each side +- 1/16 .

I always make my face frames so there is 1/2" (or more) space between the
FF edge and cabinet side; I pack out the side to that I have a surface
flush with the FF edge on which to mount the slide..

The outside width of the drawers must be 1" less than the face frame
opening but I sometimes make it 1/8" or so less to accomodate any
irregularities that might have crept in during my sometimes less than
precise construction :) I just shim out the slides on the drawer as
needed. If your case is less than square, you could do the same thing.

3. Between the Baltic birch ply and poplar, I would use the lumber. If
you prefer to use ply, plain birch ply would be cheaper than Baltic and
has the advantage of coming in standard 48" x 96" sheets.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

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Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
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"Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> On 12/29/2014 3:21 PM, dadiOH wrote:
> Snip
>
>
> >
> > The outside width of the drawers must be 1" less than the face frame
> > opening but I sometimes make it 1/8" or so less to accomodate any
> > irregularities that might have crept in during my sometimes less than
> > precise construction :) I just shim out the slides on the drawer as
> > needed. If your case is less than square, you could do the same
> > thing.
>
> Do you seriously make your drawers as much as 1/8" too narrow?

Yeah. If I am going to use slides; if not, 1/32 - 1/16.

It is a PITA to fix a too tight drawer, easy to fix a too loose one.
Especially if one has a drum sander to make shims of any and precise
thicknesses as long as they are not wafer thin, ergo the 1/8 :)


> I shoot for dead on but some times the fit is too tight and I end up
> shaving the side of the drawer 1/32" or so.
> BUT if too loose is not as much of an issue as too tight I may start
> shooting for 1/16" under. ;~)

Come to the dark side, Leon...

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> On Monday, December 29, 2014 4:21:19 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
>
> >
> > I always make my face frames so there is 1/2" (or more) space between
> > the FF edge and cabinet side; I pack out the side to that I have a
> > surface flush with the FF edge on which to mount the slide..
> >
>
> These are stick built cabinets with no "cabinet side", except at the
> very
> ends. For example, picture 4 doors that open into one large space with a
> cabinet side only at the 2 ends. There is nothing to mount slides to,
> unless I install something, which of course I could do.

I couldn't tell from the photo but was thinking that the existing wood
slides might serve. If not, there is plenty of room to add something for
attachment of the cabinet member of the slides.

> I guess I'll have to go look at some actual slides at the borg just to
> get an idea of what would be required. I probably won't but then there,
> but it'll give me an idea of my options.

For side mount slides, you need an area within the cabinet to which the
drawer member of the slide can be attached.

The face of the attachment needs to be flush with the FF edge. It can be
the cabinet side or it can be something separate from the side. If
separate, it needs to be thick enough to accomodate the little screws used
to attach the slide; 1/2" or greater would work. It also needs to be high
enough for the screws...3/4" or more generally.

It can be attached in any manner you choose...horizontally or vertically.
I sometimes make side by side pullouts in a space that has no center
partition; to attach the inboard slides, I just screw a piece of wood to
the cabinet bottom between the pullouts.

That's for "home built" cabinets/drawers. Commercially, they often use a
system of fore & aft steel or plastic clips that hold something to which
the slide is attached. I don't use them so don't know much about them but
here is one type. Youtube would be informative too, about everything.
http://www.thewoodworksinc.com/cabinet_mod/drawer-slide-system.php


--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Tue, 30 Dec 2014 05:41:55 -0500, dadiOH wrote:

> I couldn't tell from the photo but was thinking that the existing wood
> slides might serve. If not, there is plenty of room to add something
> for attachment of the cabinet member of the slides.

That was my thought. I've built several cabinets with no slides. If the
runners are too rough, replace them or sand them smooth. Then use
beeswax on them and the bottom of the drawer sides.

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> On 12/29/2014 3:21 PM, dadiOH wrote:
> > The outside width of the drawers must be 1" less than the face frame
> > opening but I sometimes make it 1/8" or so less to accomodate any
> > irregularities that might have crept in during my sometimes less than
> > precise construction :) I just shim out the slides on the drawer as
> > needed. If your case is less than square, you could do the same
> > thing.
>
> +1
>
> Undoubtedly, the voice of experience speaking. :)

Indeed. I once had to skinny down a bunch of drawers - 16 - that I made
some twenty years ago for a storage table in my shop. Fortunately,
appearance didn't matter so my decades old, aluminum clam shell disk
sander with some #60 paper did the job with a minimum of fuss. Not all 16
needed thinning but there were enough so that I decided to err the other
way in the future. I've never looked back :)

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On 12/31/2014 2:42 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 31, 2014 11:54:36 AM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:
>> On 12/31/2014 9:33 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>
>>> RO of the *face* frame
>>
>> Actually, I often remove those offending parts when retrofitting with
>> new drawers in those old style built-in cabinets.
>>
>
> I'm confused again. What parts are you talking about removing?
...

I'll take a guess...see if I'm missing the boat. :)

I'm thinking he's talking of taking out a recess in the face frame so
the slide will clear. Means you have to have overlaid drawer fronts to
cover the end of the slide or they'll show.

I did that on a bunch of workbench drawers that I wanted as much space
as possible but the support of a heavy slide but haven't ever done it in
a kitchen cabinet. For the workbench I didn't care about looks; just
let the slide ends show so the drawers are full inserted to face when close.

That it, Swing??? :) Or did I misread entirely?

--

On Mon, 29 Dec 2014 12:14:36 -0800 (PST)
DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote:

> If undermounts are impractical in this situation, what are my other
> choices?


Other option is to use wood only. I just used orange oil on some
old drawers and they slide almost too easy now. They were binding
badly creating wood dust. Now I almost pull them all the way out
when I open them.

I think the wood is fir on my drawers and I don't know if this
is practical advice for your wood choices.

On 12/31/2014 8:00 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

> On Tuesday, December 30, 2014 5:21:42 PM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:
>> >On 12/30/2014 3:33 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> > >Bench testing the drawer and slides on their actual mounts...who would have thunk it!
>> >
>> >Actually, I _ALSO_ transport the drawers and mounts as one unit

> I'm not sure what you mean by that. I was merely mentioning that I never would have thought of building a frame with slides and making sure everything fit before installing them in the cabinet.

fify

Sorry, my fault ... sidetracked by a phone call and never followed
through with the thought I was typing before hitting the send button.

Original intention was to convey the fact that bench testing of the
contraption with drawers was not the sole benefit (particularly when
every drawer in the kitchen is a different size by a few 1/16ths, making
it imperative to keep drawers matched with frames), along with the
possibility of also using them as replacement structural components, re
the other post.

(Certainly don't mind clarifying things for you, but it might not always
be so promptly done as during the holidays). LOL

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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 12/29/2014 3:21 PM, dadiOH wrote:
Snip


>
> The outside width of the drawers must be 1" less than the face frame
> opening but I sometimes make it 1/8" or so less to accomodate any
> irregularities that might have crept in during my sometimes less than
> precise construction :) I just shim out the slides on the drawer as
> needed. If your case is less than square, you could do the same thing.

Do you seriously make your drawers as much as 1/8" too narrow?

I shoot for dead on but some times the fit is too tight and I end up
shaving the side of the drawer 1/32" or so.
BUT if too loose is not as much of an issue as too tight I may start
shooting for 1/16" under. ;~)

On 12/29/2014 2:14 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

> Are there undermount drawer slides that will sit on the existing runners or do the runners have to be removed or can they be left in place and the slides installed some other way?
>
> If undermounts are impractical in this situation, what are my other choices?
>
> Thanks for your (gentle) guidance.

From the linked photo, I see no reason why you can't use a full
extension, undermount drawer slide.

I've used both Hettich and KV MUV's extensively, and either should work
from what can be seen in your photo.

Although I like them very much, I have found Hettich to be more fussy in
dimensioning the drawer, as well as in installation; so have basically
switched over to the KV MUV softclose undermounts for large projects.

You will want to download, and study carefully, the installation guides
from the retailer or manufacturer, with regard to width and drawer
height, as well as the required space between the bottom edge of the
drawer side, and the bottom side of the drawer bottom.

Obviously, you will lose some drawer height versus side mount drawers.

First and foremost is to understand clearly that drawers must be built
to fairly exacting specs for this type of drawer slide, so if you are
planning on using them, do NOT to fail to purchase your drawer slides
FIRST, BEFORE you fabricate the drawers.

Having built literally hundreds of drawers for undermount slides, I have
devised a spreadsheet for dimensioning drawer parts based on the
installation requirements for the KV MUV's that allows me to input
cabinet rough opening (width and height) material thickness, and slide
length, and it will spit out the appropriate dimensions for drawer
sides, backs, fronts, and bottoms.

I usually use half blind dovetail drawer fronts, so the calculator takes
that into account, but that can be easily changed.

Can easily email a copy to anyone who would find it useful.

NOTE: Don't let the lack of cabinet "sides" in the drawer opening hold
you back, I can show you a simple way around that which also insures a
square installation in non-square, existing cabinets.

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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 12/30/2014 12:35 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> As I think about what we have in the drawers now, I don't know that I want to lose any height. The idea of undermount slides was more for appearance, but in the end if I'm going to lose height and have to be extremely exacting in the construction, I may forgo the use of undermounts. The rest of the kitchen is, in general, not really worthy of the use of undermounts. Should I some day decide to gut the entire room, that's when I can think about getting fancy.

Yep, although it can be done to good effect, installing "Tier 1"
drawers, in "Tier 3" or "Tier 4" cabinets, is generally not worth the
time and expense.

> I'd love to hear your suggestions on converting my existing runners into whatever it takes to use slides, and most probably side mounts.

~ If you're going with modern, side mounted, ball bearing drawer slides,
simply purchase the "back mounting brackets" made for the particular slide.

If the back of the built-in cabinet is the actual wall of the room, and
covered with drywall or other soft wall covering, you will want to
simply attach a wood/plywood strip along the back (screwed to stud) to
screw the bacl brackets to.

With many drawer slides you can also purchase face frame brackets.

If the existing FF is plywood, you may want to consider the use of a
these FF brackets.

While most modern drawer slides have a single hole positioned to screw
the front of the slide to the face frame, you may find that with older
plywood face frames, the installation will be more secure using the two
screw holes available on the FF brackets.

~ An alternate method that, while it takes a tiny bit of shop time in
making these, the time spent is made up tenfold when installing new
drawers in old face frame cabinets, particularly in built-in cabinets
and when the counter top is still on:

https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopJigsFixturesMethods?noredirect=1#6098721408138140050

No need to get fancy, use scraps and finish nails/staple - just make
sure the three sided contraption is square by using 45 degree angle
brackets made with 1/4" plywood.

The sides can be made a bit shorter than the cabinet depth and shimmed
to the back wall if necessary, or made short enough to attach to a
plywood board nailed to the studs on a drywall wall.

Key is the back board dimension.

If you make it the EXACT width of your _cabinet drawer opening_ , and
make sure both sides are perpendicular by using the simple corner
brackets, it is pretty much guaranteed to give you a perfect
installation without a lot of hassle.

Basically, if the drawer works smoothly during a test mount in the shop,
they will work smoothly after installation onsite.

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