Durable Exterior Finish

You might ask the boat guys about Armada. Used it successfully on my sailboat's hatchboards and rails (teak). Two coats each spring were good for most of a Chesapeake summer.

Larry


On Monday, October 29, 2012 10:20:19 AM UTC-5, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Rob Hanson" wrote:
>
>
>
> Lew, I'll certainly be looking into the Epifanes, particularly with
>
> respect to how to apply it. Your note suggests that I might want to
>
> look for "manpower with experience..." Is there something particular
>
> about Epifanes that makes it difficult to work with?
>
>
>
> I've worked with a large number of finishes. Just wondering if
>
> Epifanes poses any issues on application.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Since you are in New Bern, you are in the middle of boat yard country
>
> which means you have a manpower pool with marine maintenance
>
> experience.
>
>
>
> You are dealing with a marine application sans a boat.
>
>
>
> The edge you have is that marine experience,
>
>
>
> Epifanes is just the weapon of choice in many marinas.
>
>
>
> Personally, I'd talk to some of those boat yards and get their input.
>
>
>
> They have local knowledge which is always useful.
>
>
>
> Lew

dadiOH wrote:

>
> If its stain, that means it has penetrated the wood, albrit, not all
> that deeply. To remove it, you have to remove the layer of colored
> wood. Sanding would work; sandblasting could create a disaster...you
> would probably need to use a material - maybe ground walnut shells? -
> that is gentler than sand.

As well, simple pressure washing may work well enough. It depends on the
condition of the wood and the stain. I have had great success using a
pressure washer on stained wood, but it all depends...



--

-Mike-
[email protected]

~

PS: Forgot to mention: I'm in coastal North Carolina. The summer sun is brutal around here, along with high humidity.

Thanks, Lee --

The client is widowed. Her husband had the place renovated (it used to be s=
tucco all around), and he passed away only a year or two after completion. =
The client's primary beef is that the finish has failed badly in some place=
s (not seen in the photo) and has faded on the doors.

Frankly, I think the original finish was terrible. Corners were certainly c=
ut. Imagine covering up all that beautiful mahogany with what amounts to br=
own paint that can't be removed. (As a side note, I preempted a similarly b=
ad finish on the interior floors; the client went with my Bysaki and wax fi=
nish instead, and it's bitchin'.)

I think the client, both him AND her, were screwed over in many ways, but..=
.

We still have an issue with the doors =3D=3D I can't get the existing finis=
h off without a huge amount of labor. I could perhaps take the doors down t=
o plane and sand, but the doors were "distressed" with a grinder, making hu=
ge divots in the wood. I wouldn't relish that project at all.

I'd like to ask for opinions about changing out the doors: Do you not think=
that we could find a wood that would be beautiful, but also sort of 'match=
' the beams? Perhaps walnut, although I'm not sure that walnut wouldn't fa=
de over time, even with UV inhibitors in the topcoats. White oak fumed? I =
would tend to agree that going with natural mahogany might not look good ag=
ainst the beams, although... maybe it would?

I guess I'm asking how bad you all think it would be if the doors were done=
differently from the beams.

Oh, and about those beams: There's NO WAY I'm getting up there to treat tho=
se, and I seriously doubt I'll find any other takers.

Thanks for looking,
Rob

Thanks, Lew. I'll check it out.

Richard wrote:
> On 10/23/2012 3:09 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> A mask with an oxygen bottle on your back like firemen use, is the
>>> best approach.
>>>
>>
>> A totally bad piece of advice. Fresh air is one thing, but oxygen
>> is quite another. Firemen do not use oxygen bottles on their backs.
>> Let that be a reminder when reading Lew's posts.
>>
>
>
> huh? I've dressed out for a few fires - with O2 on my back.

No you most certainly did not! Think about it - carrying O2 on your back -
into a fire???? You carried compressed air. Go out to the cascade unit and
look at it - compressed air. I too have dressed for a few fires in my time,
was a chief and a paramedic. The latter of that list would have required my
services if you ever went into a fire with 02 on your back.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"Rob Hanson" wrote:

I have a high-value client who did an extensive renovation on their
house a few years ago. (I did their walnut floors with a fine shellac
and wax finish... killer.) But, on the exterior of this
house/mansion, there are extensive amounts of wood beam, decorative
features, and panels. The client is no longer happy with the look of
the finish done during restoration (I didn't do it); parts are
sun-faded, and she wants to take everything down to the original wood
for a more natural-looking finish. Lots of mahogany, I think, hard to
tell, because...

... All this wood was finished with some crappy looking, dark walnut,
oil-based stain, perhaps MinWax. I have no clue how to remove that
stuff, or if it has penetrated so deeply that it'll never come out.
I'll be going there on Saturday to excavate a few areas to see how
deep it runs. Sanding? Sandblasting?

I can likely secure a crew to do sanding and scraping. In my usual
one-off woodworking, I favor a natural look such as we get from
shellac. We'd want to avoid any finish that a) fades too much in the
sun, or b) obscures the look of the original wood, and c) will last a
good, long time.

What finish might be recommended for this exterior application? Are we
relegated to only standard commercial products, like Behr, etc? Is
there any shellac that is suitable for exterior application?

The client says, "This WILL be done," and I'm sure she means it. I
just need to know which direction to go in.
--------------------------------------------------------------
What ever you do will be a high maintenance solution.

The closer to the equator, the more frequent the refinishing.

A 2 part, clear, marine LP will give you the best shot; however,
requires a great deal of prep and is probably the highest cost
approach.

You will require a high quality respirator (catalyzed resin in your
lungs is not a
pleasant way to die).

A mask with an oxygen bottle on your back like firemen use, is the
best approach.

You will need a gun with a paint pot and a compressor than provides at
least 15 scfm.

Expect to pay at least $200/gal for the 2 part LP.

A pressure washer is probably the easiest way to prep the surfaces.

Good luck.

Lew

I wrote:

>> A mask with an oxygen bottle on your back like firemen use, is the
>> best approach.
---------------------------------------------------------
"Mike Marlow" wrote:
>
> A totally bad piece of advice. Fresh air is one thing, but oxygen
> is quite another. Firemen do not use oxygen bottles on their backs.
> Let that be a reminder when reading Lew's posts.
-----------------------------------------------------------
How many LP jobs have you shot?

Lew

"Jim Weisgram" wrote:

> The preferred finish was a combination of Smith & CO. Penetrating
> Expoy Sealer (3 coats) under Epifanes Marine Varnish (5 coats), or
> just the Epiphanes Varnish alone (7 thinned coats). Note that in
> 2009
> the Epifanes was $45/qt, and the Smith Epoxy was $42/qt. Or
> vice-versa.
------------------------------------------------------
Epifanes is the finish of choice in most boat yards.

Smith's epoxy is one of many.

Check Jamestown Distributors for current pricing.

Lew

Lew Hodgett wrote:

> A mask with an oxygen bottle on your back like firemen use, is the
> best approach.
---------------------------------------------------------
Mike Marlow wrote:

> A totally bad piece of advice. Fresh air is one thing, but oxygen is
> quite
> another. Firemen do not use oxygen bottles on their backs. Let that
> be a
> reminder when reading Lew's posts.
------------------------------------------------------
Richard wrote:

> huh? I've dressed out for a few fires - with O2 on my back.
--------------------------------------------------------
"Gil" wrote:

> I really doubt that. I'd sure like to know what kind of masks you're
> using. If it is true then someone better call in a safety officer.
> Even a tiny leak of pure oxygen in a fire can be deadly. Most masks,
> Scott, MSA, etc. use compressed air in their bottles. Not Oxygen.
> (Twenty-eight years of full time fire fighting experience talking
> here.)
-------------------------------------------------------
Mea culpa, sometimes things work better if you engage brain before
typing.

Was most concerned in conveying that using a fireman's self contained
mask with a tank on the back system provided the best protection
against
inhaling catalyzed resin vapors into the lungs and the resultant
painful death
that would follow.

Might use of the term "oxygen" was meant to convey breathable gas in
a pressurized bottle rather than pure oxygen.

If memory serves me correctly, you can't breath pure oxygen on a
continuous
basis.

BTW, my apologies to Mike Marlow.

Lew

"Rob Hanson" wrote:

UPDATE:
-------

I've just returned from the client's place, having had a look at the
project. Thanks to all for your suggestions, and I have a couple more
questions.

We're looking at starting on the garage doors, five of 'em. (Car
collector.) The existing finish is dull and faded. The client wants it
to look "beautiful" and "perfect," and understands that it will need
to be treated every year or so.

The doors (and beams, etc.) are made of solid mahogany. Existing
stain/sealer is some generic, semi-transparent crud, poorly applied.
Client agrees that we should take it down to the wood and build the
finish back up into something lustrous.

In woodworking terms, my favorite finish keeps the natural beauty of
the wood. I usually apply a few coats of high-quality shellac from
flake -- usually dewaxed pale -- and then I apply a few coats of
Maloof's Poly/Oil finish. Clearly, though, that's for interior
applications, and would not likely stand up well outside.

So... I'm now thinking about trying to map that kind of finish to
exterior products:

-- I'd plan to get a crew in to power wash and/or sand the doors back
to bare wood.

-- Would sealer coats of high-quality shellac be useful or indicated?
(Bysaki might be a durable enough shellac, and impart a nice, darker
tone to the wood.) I usually like how shellac makes mahogany glow.

-- Can we think of products that might be good for exterior
application, but give the same result as something like the Maloof
poly/oil finish? No problem if it has to be built up over many
coats... Or, would it be best to head in another direction?

-- I'd prefer an oil type finish rather than a film finish such as
varnish. Oil would tend to crack and peel far less, even though it
might have to be refreshed more often.

At this point, it looks as though I'm committed in to the project,
even if only in a supervisory role. ANY input would be greatly
appreciated, and might result in me buyin' a few beers.

Thanks!
Rob
New Bern, NC
-----------------------------------------------------------
This is an outdoor project and must be treated as one.

Epifanes will or should be the weapon of choice.

Since you are in New Bern, you are fortunate to have several boats
yards
handy.

I'd talk to some of them.

Finding manpower with experience using Epifanes will not be a problem.

Talk to the Epifanes tech group as well as their sales group.

Buying product by the 4 gallon box price will certainly reflect a
major price difference over the quart (Liter) price.

Who knows, this could turn into a year around project, well
at least 9 months out of the year.


Have fun.

Lew

"Rob Hanson" wrote:

Lew, I'll certainly be looking into the Epifanes, particularly with
respect to how to apply it. Your note suggests that I might want to
look for "manpower with experience..." Is there something particular
about Epifanes that makes it difficult to work with?

I've worked with a large number of finishes. Just wondering if
Epifanes poses any issues on application.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Since you are in New Bern, you are in the middle of boat yard country
which means you have a manpower pool with marine maintenance
experience.

You are dealing with a marine application sans a boat.

The edge you have is that marine experience,

Epifanes is just the weapon of choice in many marinas.

Personally, I'd talk to some of those boat yards and get their input.

They have local knowledge which is always useful.

Lew

"Rob Hanson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Okay, the saga continues, but this is where the opportunity gets to be
> fun.
>
> I've posted a few pictures of the house in question, link below. They show
> not only the doors and beams that I've been referring to, but also the
> scale of the place. The client has put the beams on hold for now, waiting
> to see what I can do to the garage doors.
>
> The underlying wood is mahogany. The wood was stained with a BenMoore
> oil-based penetrating stain which had walnut along with red and black.
> This stain has failed due to lack of maintenance. So far, all attempts to
> remove the stain with chemicals have failed. Not only that, but removing
> the stain via chemical is bound to cause issues... the house drains to a
> waterway. I was only able to get down to the wood by planing and sanding.
> (I have sample pieces in my shop.) The stuff underneath is beautiful...
> sheesh.
>
> Considering how much manpower and noxious chemicals would be taken up in
> trying to remove the stain, sand, and start anew, I'm thinking of
> proposing that the client replace the garage doors, with me doing the
> finish on them. (Currently my favorite choice is the CPES and Epifanes
> mentioned earlier in the thread.) Overall, this would be a lot less time
> and effort.
>
> Question is: If you could replace the garage doors with any readily
> available wood, what would you choose? Take a look at the pictures and see
> what you think would look best relative to the stonework on the house, as
> well as the beams staying dark as they are. I've got one species in mind,
> but would love to hear your opinions...
>
> The link to the pictures:
>
> http://www.robhansonphotography.com/Architecture/Tuscan/26428476_jjFgKN
>
What a mess. The problem I see, is that all the exposed wood looks similar.
Anything you do on doors, etc, has to match everything else. And if you do
something different by making new doors, are you going to make new beams
too. Not to mention taking out the old ones and installing the new ones.

At least with the doors, you can take them off and work on them. You won't
be able to do that with the beams. Whoever did the work on the exterior
wood really screwed this home owner. She was asking for a lot and should
have been expected to pay for it.

My advise would be to just use the original wood and structures. That is
what she paid big money for. And that is what she is trying to get back.
To do something else doesn't take into account her heavy emotional
investment into her castle.

And if you pull off a miracle and restore her dream, then you will be good
to go on everything else. But is has to be really expensive. It sounds
like you did a good job of explaining that to her. Now just follow through.

"Rob Hanson" wrote:

Okay, the saga continues, but this is where the opportunity gets to be
fun.

I've posted a few pictures of the house in question, link below. They
show not only the doors and beams that I've been referring to, but
also the scale of the place. The client has put the beams on hold for
now, waiting to see what I can do to the garage doors.

The underlying wood is mahogany. The wood was stained with a BenMoore
oil-based penetrating stain which had walnut along with red and black.
This stain has failed due to lack of maintenance. So far, all attempts
to remove the stain with chemicals have failed. Not only that, but
removing the stain via chemical is bound to cause issues... the house
drains to a waterway. I was only able to get down to the wood by
planing and sanding. (I have sample pieces in my shop.) The stuff
underneath is beautiful... sheesh.

Considering how much manpower and noxious chemicals would be taken up
in trying to remove the stain, sand, and start anew, I'm thinking of
proposing that the client replace the garage doors, with me doing the
finish on them. (Currently my favorite choice is the CPES and Epifanes
mentioned earlier in the thread.) Overall, this would be a lot less
time and effort.

Question is: If you could replace the garage doors with any readily
available wood, what would you choose? Take a look at the pictures and
see what you think would look best relative to the stonework on the
house, as well as the beams staying dark as they are. I've got one
species in mind, but would love to hear your opinions...
------------------------------------------
Got a refinery someplace within reasonable distance you can call?

Refineries have lots of tanks that need to be cleaned on a regular
basis.

This work is done by outside contractors.

In the past, they have used both sand blasting and/or pressurized
water.

Clean up is a problem for either sand or water; however, all is not
lost.

Enter dry ice.

Today a lot of tanks are cleaned using dry ice pellets under pressure
much the same way sand is used.

The pellets hit the tank wall and their low temperature helps fracture
the crud thus helping to break it loose.

The other big advantage is that no sand or water contaminates the
tank.

When the pellets warm up, they simply turn to gaseous CO2.

Might be worth checking out.

Lew

On 11/09/2012 06:47 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Rob Hanson" wrote:
>
> Okay, the saga continues, but this is where the opportunity gets to be
> fun.
>
> I've posted a few pictures of the house in question, link below. They
> show not only the doors and beams that I've been referring to, but
> also the scale of the place. The client has put the beams on hold for
> now, waiting to see what I can do to the garage doors.
>
> The underlying wood is mahogany. The wood was stained with a BenMoore
> oil-based penetrating stain which had walnut along with red and black.
> This stain has failed due to lack of maintenance. So far, all attempts
> to remove the stain with chemicals have failed. Not only that, but
> removing the stain via chemical is bound to cause issues... the house
> drains to a waterway. I was only able to get down to the wood by
> planing and sanding. (I have sample pieces in my shop.) The stuff
> underneath is beautiful... sheesh.
>
> Considering how much manpower and noxious chemicals would be taken up
> in trying to remove the stain, sand, and start anew, I'm thinking of
> proposing that the client replace the garage doors, with me doing the
> finish on them. (Currently my favorite choice is the CPES and Epifanes
> mentioned earlier in the thread.) Overall, this would be a lot less
> time and effort.
>
> Question is: If you could replace the garage doors with any readily
> available wood, what would you choose? Take a look at the pictures and
> see what you think would look best relative to the stonework on the
> house, as well as the beams staying dark as they are. I've got one
> species in mind, but would love to hear your opinions...
> ------------------------------------------
> Got a refinery someplace within reasonable distance you can call?
>
> Refineries have lots of tanks that need to be cleaned on a regular
> basis.
>
> This work is done by outside contractors.
>
> In the past, they have used both sand blasting and/or pressurized
> water.
>
> Clean up is a problem for either sand or water; however, all is not
> lost.
>
> Enter dry ice.
>
> Today a lot of tanks are cleaned using dry ice pellets under pressure
> much the same way sand is used.
>
> The pellets hit the tank wall and their low temperature helps fracture
> the crud thus helping to break it loose.
>
> The other big advantage is that no sand or water contaminates the
> tank.
>
> When the pellets warm up, they simply turn to gaseous CO2.

But, but, but - doesn't CO2 cause global warming?

>
> Might be worth checking out.
>
> Lew
>
>
>



--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

Thanks, Doug and Lew --

Lew, I'll certainly be looking into the Epifanes, particularly with respect=
to how to apply it. Your note suggests that I might want to look for "manp=
ower with experience..." Is there something particular about Epifanes that=
makes it difficult to work with?

I've worked with a large number of finishes. Just wondering if Epifanes po=
ses any issues on application.

Thanks!
Rob

Okay, the saga continues, but this is where the opportunity gets to be fun.

I've posted a few pictures of the house in question, link below. They show =
not only the doors and beams that I've been referring to, but also the scal=
e of the place. The client has put the beams on hold for now, waiting to se=
e what I can do to the garage doors.

The underlying wood is mahogany. The wood was stained with a BenMoore oil-b=
ased penetrating stain which had walnut along with red and black. This stai=
n has failed due to lack of maintenance. So far, all attempts to remove the=
stain with chemicals have failed. Not only that, but removing the stain vi=
a chemical is bound to cause issues... the house drains to a waterway. I wa=
s only able to get down to the wood by planing and sanding. (I have sample =
pieces in my shop.) The stuff underneath is beautiful... sheesh.

Considering how much manpower and noxious chemicals would be taken up in tr=
ying to remove the stain, sand, and start anew, I'm thinking of proposing t=
hat the client replace the garage doors, with me doing the finish on them. =
(Currently my favorite choice is the CPES and Epifanes mentioned earlier in=
the thread.) Overall, this would be a lot less time and effort.=20

Question is: If you could replace the garage doors with any readily availab=
le wood, what would you choose? Take a look at the pictures and see what yo=
u think would look best relative to the stonework on the house, as well as =
the beams staying dark as they are. I've got one species in mind, but woul=
d love to hear your opinions...

The link to the pictures:=20

http://www.robhansonphotography.com/Architecture/Tuscan/26428476_jjFgKN

Thanks!
Rob

UPDATE:
-------

I've just returned from the client's place, having had a look at the projec=
t. Thanks to all for your suggestions, and I have a couple more questions.

We're looking at starting on the garage doors, five of 'em. (Car collector.=
) The existing finish is dull and faded. The client wants it to look "beaut=
iful" and "perfect," and understands that it will need to be treated every =
year or so.

The doors (and beams, etc.) are made of solid mahogany. Existing stain/seal=
er is some generic, semi-transparent crud, poorly applied. Client agrees t=
hat we should take it down to the wood and build the finish back up into so=
mething lustrous.

In woodworking terms, my favorite finish keeps the natural beauty of the wo=
od. I usually apply a few coats of high-quality shellac from flake -- usual=
ly dewaxed pale -- and then I apply a few coats of Maloof's Poly/Oil finish=
. Clearly, though, that's for interior applications, and would not likely s=
tand up well outside.

So... I'm now thinking about trying to map that kind of finish to exterior =
products:

-- I'd plan to get a crew in to power wash and/or sand the doors back to ba=
re wood.

-- Would sealer coats of high-quality shellac be useful or indicated? (Bysa=
ki might be a durable enough shellac, and impart a nice, darker tone to the=
wood.) I usually like how shellac makes mahogany glow.

-- Can we think of products that might be good for exterior application, bu=
t give the same result as something like the Maloof poly/oil finish? No pr=
oblem if it has to be built up over many coats... Or, would it be best to =
head in another direction?

-- I'd prefer an oil type finish rather than a film finish such as varnish.=
Oil would tend to crack and peel far less, even though it might have to be=
refreshed more often.

At this point, it looks as though I'm committed in to the project, even if =
only in a supervisory role. ANY input would be greatly appreciated, and mig=
ht result in me buyin' a few beers.

Thanks!
Rob
New Bern, NC

Lew Hodgett wrote:

>
> A mask with an oxygen bottle on your back like firemen use, is the
> best approach.
>

A totally bad piece of advice. Fresh air is one thing, but oxygen is quite
another. Firemen do not use oxygen bottles on their backs. Let that be a
reminder when reading Lew's posts.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 10/23/2012 3:09 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
>>
>> A mask with an oxygen bottle on your back like firemen use, is the
>> best approach.
>>
>
> A totally bad piece of advice. Fresh air is one thing, but oxygen is quite
> another. Firemen do not use oxygen bottles on their backs. Let that be a
> reminder when reading Lew's posts.
>


huh? I've dressed out for a few fires - with O2 on my back.

On 23/10/2012 10:35 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
>> A mask with an oxygen bottle on your back like firemen use, is the
>> best approach.
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>
>> A totally bad piece of advice. Fresh air is one thing, but oxygen is
>> quite
>> another. Firemen do not use oxygen bottles on their backs. Let that
>> be a
>> reminder when reading Lew's posts.
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Richard wrote:
>
>> huh? I've dressed out for a few fires - with O2 on my back.
> --------------------------------------------------------
> "Gil" wrote:
>
>> I really doubt that. I'd sure like to know what kind of masks you're
>> using. If it is true then someone better call in a safety officer.
>> Even a tiny leak of pure oxygen in a fire can be deadly. Most masks,
>> Scott, MSA, etc. use compressed air in their bottles. Not Oxygen.
>> (Twenty-eight years of full time fire fighting experience talking
>> here.)
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Mea culpa, sometimes things work better if you engage brain before
> typing.
>
> Was most concerned in conveying that using a fireman's self contained
> mask with a tank on the back system provided the best protection
> against
> inhaling catalyzed resin vapors into the lungs and the resultant
> painful death
> that would follow.
>
> Might use of the term "oxygen" was meant to convey breathable gas in
> a pressurized bottle rather than pure oxygen.
>
> If memory serves me correctly, you can't breath pure oxygen on a
> continuous
> basis.
>
> BTW, my apologies to Mike Marlow.
>
> Lew
>
>

Ok, I understand, Lew. Unfortunately much of the public, as well as news
reporters, seem to think those are oxygen tanks and it's up to us who
know better to set the record straight. And I concur, when using that
product a closed air supply mask should be used.

Rob Hanson wrote:

> Greetings!
>
> It has been years since I've been on rec.woodworking! I wonder if some
of
> the old names are still here?
>
> Question out of desperation -- a blend of 'woodworking' and large-scale
> finishing:
>
> I have a high-value client who did an extensive renovation on their house
> a few years ago. (I did their walnut floors with a fine shellac and wax
> finish... killer.) But, on the exterior of this house/mansion, there are
> extensive amounts of wood beam, decorative features, and panels. The
> client is no longer happy with the look of the finish done during
> restoration (I didn't do it); parts are sun-faded, and she wants to take
> everything down to the original wood for a more natural-looking finish.
> Lots of mahogany, I think, hard to tell, because...
>
> ... All this wood was finished with some crappy looking, dark walnut,
> oil-based stain, perhaps MinWax. I have no clue how to remove that
stuff,
> or if it has penetrated so deeply that it'll never come out. I'll be going
> there on Saturday to excavate a few areas to see how deep it runs.
> Sanding? Sandblasting?
>
> I can likely secure a crew to do sanding and scraping. In my usual one-
off
> woodworking, I favor a natural look such as we get from shellac. We'd
want
> to avoid any finish that a) fades too much in the sun, or b) obscures the
> look of the original wood, and c) will last a good, long time.
>
> What finish might be recommended for this exterior application? Are we
> relegated to only standard commercial products, like Behr, etc? Is there
> any shellac that is suitable for exterior application?
>
> The client says, "This WILL be done," and I'm sure she means it. I just
> need to know which direction to go in.
>
> Thanks for any insight or pointers!
>
> Rob


If you are going with a stain, I would pressure wash, but with a lower
pressure to avoid removing more than just the dirt, and let the chemicals to
the major portion of the work.

It all depends on where you are located as to what finish to would apply.
Here in the soggy South, I would go with BLP Mobile paint or stains,
because of their excellent mildew resistance.

But my favorite exterior finish is General Finishes Exterior Oil. Good
protection and minimal color change.

Deb

Thanks for all the great input! That said, I'm still not sure where we're =
gonna go with this (haven't looked at the location, yet.) I doubt I'm goin=
g to do the work, but I wouldn't mind trying to engineer a good solution fo=
r the client.

Interestingly, paint is what my wife and I do, but decorative (faux) painti=
ng, using high quality materials that can withstand the elements (mostly.) =
Someone here mentioned paint being the best, low maintenance solution, so =
we'll look into that possibility. Client probably won't go for that, though=
.

The wood in question will probably be highly problematic in terms of stripp=
ing off what has been done to it. Probably a deep penetrating stain, and th=
e hammerheads who did the place 'distressed' the wood with hammers and othe=
r tools for a more rustic look. Can't imagine trying to get all the nooks =
and crannies clean!

Then, I'm hearing multiple coats and hundreds of gallons of new product (it=
's a damned big place.) Only to have to re-coat within months or a couple o=
f years.

Sadly, I don't think there's a really good solution. The client's husband h=
ad the place remodeled into a large Tuscan-style villa, then had the audaci=
ty to pass away, leaving her with something that she just doesn't like. I'd=
hate to tell her what's involved, but someone has to deliver the news...

Thanks again for all the help. I remain open to any other suggestions... a=
s long as they don't involve oxygen tanks.

Rob

Dr. Deb wrote:

> If you are going with a stain, I would pressure wash, but with a lower
> pressure to avoid removing more than just the dirt, and let the
> chemicals to the major portion of the work.
>

FWIW - I pressure wash with full pressure, but I open the wand up to a wide
pattern. That prevents scaring the wood as long as you keep moving, but
does a good job of penetrating at the same time. It's something you have to
work at a bit to get the feel of - how fast to move the wand and all that,
but then again, there are no cook book recipes for this kind of work - or
any other kind of work.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 10/23/2012 9:37 AM, Rob Hanson wrote:
> Greetings!
>
> It has been years since I've been on rec.woodworking! I wonder if some of the old names are still here?
>
> Question out of desperation -- a blend of 'woodworking' and large-scale finishing:
>
> I have a high-value client who did an extensive renovation on their house a few years ago. (I did their walnut floors with a fine shellac and wax finish... killer.) But, on the exterior of this house/mansion, there are extensive amounts of wood beam, decorative features, and panels. The client is no longer happy with the look of the finish done during restoration (I didn't do it); parts are sun-faded, and she wants to take everything down to the original wood for a more natural-looking finish. Lots of mahogany, I think, hard to tell, because...
>
> ... All this wood was finished with some crappy looking, dark walnut, oil-based stain, perhaps MinWax. I have no clue how to remove that stuff, or if it has penetrated so deeply that it'll never come out. I'll be going there on Saturday to excavate a few areas to see how deep it runs. Sanding? Sandblasting?
>
> I can likely secure a crew to do sanding and scraping. In my usual one-off woodworking, I favor a natural look such as we get from shellac. We'd want to avoid any finish that a) fades too much in the sun, or b) obscures the look of the original wood, and c) will last a good, long time.
>
> What finish might be recommended for this exterior application? Are we relegated to only standard commercial products, like Behr, etc? Is there any shellac that is suitable for exterior application?
>
> The client says, "This WILL be done," and I'm sure she means it. I just need to know which direction to go in.
>
> Thanks for any insight or pointers!
>
> Rob
>


Pick what ever finish that you think looks good "now". All clear and
stain finishes that are translucent will fade in a few years if exposed
to sunlight.

Paint is going to be your most durable and longest lasting finish.

A word of caution. Just because the client insists on and or has
limitless money to throw at a project does not mean that the results,
long term, will be satisfactory. The client will always find some one
that will promise them the world and not stand behind the work.

Basically don't promise what you cannot stand behind.

Fine Woodworking had a comparison test in issue 205. They had sample
boards made up with various finishes and had them sent to Salem Oregon
(town is was born in), Albuquerque, N.M., Bridgeport, Conn., and New
Orleans, La., where they were outdoors for 1 year.

The preferred finish was a combination of Smith & CO. Penetrating
Expoy Sealer (3 coats) under Epifanes Marine Varnish (5 coats), or
just the Epiphanes Varnish alone (7 thinned coats). Note that in 2009
the Epifanes was $45/qt, and the Smith Epoxy was $42/qt. Or
vice-versa.

The other testees, Oil (Watco Exterior), and other exterior varnishes
(Zar Exterior Poly and McClosky Man O War spar varnish), didn't come
close to this combination.

Note that one conclusion of the test was that water damage was more a
problem than UV damage.

>> Jim



On Tue, 23 Oct 2012 07:37:13 -0700 (PDT), Rob Hanson
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Greetings!
>
>It has been years since I've been on rec.woodworking! I wonder if some of the old names are still here?
>
>Question out of desperation -- a blend of 'woodworking' and large-scale finishing:
>
>I have a high-value client who did an extensive renovation on their house a few years ago. (I did their walnut floors with a fine shellac and wax finish... killer.) But, on the exterior of this house/mansion, there are extensive amounts of wood beam, decorative features, and panels. The client is no longer happy with the look of the finish done during restoration (I didn't do it); parts are sun-faded, and she wants to take everything down to the original wood for a more natural-looking finish. Lots of mahogany, I think, hard to tell, because...
>
>... All this wood was finished with some crappy looking, dark walnut, oil-based stain, perhaps MinWax. I have no clue how to remove that stuff, or if it has penetrated so deeply that it'll never come out. I'll be going there on Saturday to excavate a few areas to see how deep it runs. Sanding? Sandblasting?
>
>I can likely secure a crew to do sanding and scraping. In my usual one-off woodworking, I favor a natural look such as we get from shellac. We'd want to avoid any finish that a) fades too much in the sun, or b) obscures the look of the original wood, and c) will last a good, long time.
>
>What finish might be recommended for this exterior application? Are we relegated to only standard commercial products, like Behr, etc? Is there any shellac that is suitable for exterior application?
>
>The client says, "This WILL be done," and I'm sure she means it. I just need to know which direction to go in.
>
>Thanks for any insight or pointers!
>
>Rob

Rob Hanson wrote:
> Greetings!
>
> It has been years since I've been on rec.woodworking! I wonder if
> some of the old names are still here?
>
> Question out of desperation -- a blend of 'woodworking' and
> large-scale finishing:
>
> I have a high-value client who did an extensive renovation on their
> house a few years ago. (I did their walnut floors with a fine shellac
> and wax finish... killer.) But, on the exterior of this
> house/mansion, there are extensive amounts of wood beam, decorative
> features, and panels. The client is no longer happy with the look of
> the finish done during restoration (I didn't do it); parts are
> sun-faded, and she wants to take everything down to the original wood
> for a more natural-looking finish. Lots of mahogany, I think, hard to
> tell, because...
>
> ... All this wood was finished with some crappy looking, dark walnut,
> oil-based stain, perhaps MinWax. I have no clue how to remove that
> stuff, or if it has penetrated so deeply that it'll never come out.
> I'll be going there on Saturday to excavate a few areas to see how
> deep it runs. Sanding? Sandblasting?

If its stain, that means it has penetrated the wood, albrit, not all that
deeply. To remove it, you have to remove the layer of colored wood.
Sanding would work; sandblasting could create a disaster...you would
probably need to use a material - maybe ground walnut shells? - that is
gentler than sand.
__________________

> I can likely secure a crew to do sanding and scraping. In my usual
> one-off woodworking, I favor a natural look such as we get from
> shellac. We'd want to avoid any finish that a) fades too much in the
> sun, or b) obscures the look of the original wood, and c) will last a
> good, long time.
>
> What finish might be recommended for this exterior application? Are
> we relegated to only standard commercial products, like Behr, etc? Is
> there any shellac that is suitable for exterior application?
>
> The client says, "This WILL be done," and I'm sure she means it. I
> just need to know which direction to go in.

If she wants a "natural" finish that means a clear finish. Any clear
finish - even those that include an UV inhibitor - will need relatively
frequent maintenance. How frequent depends primarily upon how much sun it
gets, could be as short as six months, as long as 3-4 years. Maybe longer
if totally shaded and not exposed to open sky.

Oil will also yield a natural finish. Linseed oil will darken over time;
how much depends upon how much was absorbed by the wood or trapped in
interstices on the surface. The rougher the wood the more oil stays on/in
it. Tung oil doesn't darken like linseed but with either - and any clear
finish - the color of the wood will change with time; generally, light woods
get darker, dark woods get lighter.

Linseed oil will also support mildew; IIRC, tung does so to a lesser extent;
if either were to be used, I'd want to add an anti-fungal agent. One really
good thing about oil that it is easy to reapply when needed.

Your client needs to understand that what she wants will require redoing at
relatively frequent intervals.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out...
http://www.floridaloghouse.net

Mike Marlow wrote:
> dadiOH wrote:
>
>>
>> If its stain, that means it has penetrated the wood, albrit, not all
>> that deeply. To remove it, you have to remove the layer of colored
>> wood. Sanding would work; sandblasting could create a disaster...you
>> would probably need to use a material - maybe ground walnut shells? -
>> that is gentler than sand.
>
> As well, simple pressure washing may work well enough. It depends on
> the condition of the wood and the stain. I have had great success
> using a pressure washer on stained wood, but it all depends...

Good thought. It is certainly something the OP should try first thing.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out...
http://www.floridaloghouse.net

Rob Hanson wrote:

>
> We still have an issue with the doors == I can't get the existing
> finish off without a huge amount of labor. I could perhaps take the
> doors down to plane and sand, but the doors were "distressed" with a
> grinder, making huge divots in the wood. I wouldn't relish that
> project at all.

This may be a stretch, but have you considered a pressure washer? I use one
to renew exterior wood with very good results. You do have to be careful
not to use a very direct straight stream, as even a small 1700 psi washer
will tear out wood.\


>
> I'd like to ask for opinions about changing out the doors: Do you not
> think that we could find a wood that would be beautiful, but also
> sort of 'match' the beams? Perhaps walnut, although I'm not sure
> that walnut wouldn't fade over time, even with UV inhibitors in the
> topcoats. White oak fumed? I would tend to agree that going with
> natural mahogany might not look good against the beams, although...
> maybe it would?

Everything is going to fade over time. Best for you and your client to
resign yourselves to a routine maintenance interval of (probably) every 5
years. That's not really so bad.


>
> I guess I'm asking how bad you all think it would be if the doors
> were done differently from the beams.
>
> Oh, and about those beams: There's NO WAY I'm getting up there to
> treat those, and I seriously doubt I'll find any other takers.
>

I don't blame you! I wouldn't either. I don't get up in the air unless
it's to kill a deer. But... a scaffold is easy to rent, and there are
people all over the place that wouldn't be the least bit intimidated to take
on something like that.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Rob Hanson wrote:
> Thanks, Lee --
>
> The client is widowed. Her husband had the place renovated (it used
> to be stucco all around), and he passed away only a year or two after
> completion. The client's primary beef is that the finish has failed
> badly in some places (not seen in the photo) and has faded on the
> doors.
>
> Frankly, I think the original finish was terrible. Corners were
> certainly cut. Imagine covering up all that beautiful mahogany with
> what amounts to brown paint that can't be removed. (As a side note, I
> preempted a similarly bad finish on the interior floors; the client
> went with my Bysaki and wax finish instead, and it's bitchin'.)
>
> I think the client, both him AND her, were screwed over in many ways,
> but...
>
> We still have an issue with the doors == I can't get the existing
> finish off without a huge amount of labor. I could perhaps take the
> doors down to plane and sand, but the doors were "distressed" with a
> grinder, making huge divots in the wood. I wouldn't relish that
> project at all.
>
> I'd like to ask for opinions about changing out the doors: Do you not
> think that we could find a wood that would be beautiful, but also
> sort of 'match' the beams? Perhaps walnut, although I'm not sure
> that walnut wouldn't fade over time, even with UV inhibitors in the
> topcoats. White oak fumed? I would tend to agree that going with
> natural mahogany might not look good against the beams, although...
> maybe it would?
>
> I guess I'm asking how bad you all think it would be if the doors
> were done differently from the beams.

I don't think it matters at all. Just as I don't think that the tile roof
and stone walls clash.

Those look to be nice doors and I wouldn't be rushing off to replace them.
You won't find many woods as good as - let alone better - for the purpose
than mahogany. IIRC, the client wanted a "durable" finish. We all know any
finish is going to require maintenance/redoing...any reason you can't apply
whatever you decide on over the stain? After cleaning, of course.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out...
http://www.floridaloghouse.net

"Rob Hanson" <[email protected]> wrote

> I think the client, both him AND her, were screwed over in many ways,
> but...
>
> We still have an issue with the doors == I can't get the existing finish
> off without a huge amount of labor. I could perhaps take the doors down to
> plane and sand, but the doors were "distressed" with a grinder, making
> huge divots in the wood. I wouldn't relish that project at all.
>
> I'd like to ask for opinions about changing out the doors: Do you not
> think that we could find a wood that would be beautiful, but also sort of
> 'match' the beams? Perhaps walnut, although I'm not sure that walnut
> wouldn't fade over time, even with UV inhibitors in the topcoats. White
> oak fumed? I would tend to agree that going with natural mahogany might
> not look good against the beams, although... maybe it would?
>
> I guess I'm asking how bad you all think it would be if the doors were
> done differently from the beams.
>
> Oh, and about those beams: There's NO WAY I'm getting up there to treat
> those, and I seriously doubt I'll find any other takers.
***********************************************************************************************************8
I think you should not give up on the total picture fix. Find a good
sandblasting company, that has experience with a wide range of blasting
mediums. Get them out with a range of mediums to do a test, and see what
works. I really believe that holds the answer to fixing the problem of
unifying the finish in the nicks, groves and divots.
--
Jim in NC

"Doug Winterburn" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

On 11/09/2012 06:47 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Rob Hanson" wrote:
>
> Okay, the saga continues, but this is where the opportunity gets to be
> fun.
>
> I've posted a few pictures of the house in question, link below. They
> show not only the doors and beams that I've been referring to, but
> also the scale of the place. The client has put the beams on hold for
> now, waiting to see what I can do to the garage doors.
>
> The underlying wood is mahogany. The wood was stained with a BenMoore
> oil-based penetrating stain which had walnut along with red and black.
> This stain has failed due to lack of maintenance. So far, all attempts
> to remove the stain with chemicals have failed. Not only that, but
> removing the stain via chemical is bound to cause issues... the house
> drains to a waterway. I was only able to get down to the wood by
> planing and sanding. (I have sample pieces in my shop.) The stuff
> underneath is beautiful... sheesh.
>
> Considering how much manpower and noxious chemicals would be taken up
> in trying to remove the stain, sand, and start anew, I'm thinking of
> proposing that the client replace the garage doors, with me doing the
> finish on them. (Currently my favorite choice is the CPES and Epifanes
> mentioned earlier in the thread.) Overall, this would be a lot less
> time and effort.
>
> Question is: If you could replace the garage doors with any readily
> available wood, what would you choose? Take a look at the pictures and
> see what you think would look best relative to the stonework on the
> house, as well as the beams staying dark as they are. I've got one
> species in mind, but would love to hear your opinions...
> ------------------------------------------
> Got a refinery someplace within reasonable distance you can call?
>
> Refineries have lots of tanks that need to be cleaned on a regular
> basis.
>
> This work is done by outside contractors.
>
> In the past, they have used both sand blasting and/or pressurized
> water.
>
> Clean up is a problem for either sand or water; however, all is not
> lost.
>
> Enter dry ice.
>
> Today a lot of tanks are cleaned using dry ice pellets under pressure
> much the same way sand is used.
>
> The pellets hit the tank wall and their low temperature helps fracture
> the crud thus helping to break it loose.
>
> The other big advantage is that no sand or water contaminates the
> tank.
>
> When the pellets warm up, they simply turn to gaseous CO2.

But, but, but - doesn't CO2 cause global warming?
=======================================================
No.

On 23/10/2012 4:42 PM, Richard wrote:
> On 10/23/2012 3:09 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> A mask with an oxygen bottle on your back like firemen use, is the
>>> best approach.
>>>
>>
>> A totally bad piece of advice. Fresh air is one thing, but oxygen is
>> quite
>> another. Firemen do not use oxygen bottles on their backs. Let that be a
>> reminder when reading Lew's posts.
>>
>
>
> huh? I've dressed out for a few fires - with O2 on my back.
>
>

I really doubt that. I'd sure like to know what kind of masks you're
using. If it is true then someone better call in a safety officer. Even
a tiny leak of pure oxygen in a fire can be deadly. Most masks, Scott,
MSA, etc. use compressed air in their bottles. Not Oxygen. (Twenty-eight
years of full time fire fighting experience talking here.)

"Rob Hanson" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

Greetings!

It has been years since I've been on rec.woodworking! I wonder if some of
the old names are still here?

Question out of desperation -- a blend of 'woodworking' and large-scale
finishing:

I have a high-value client who did an extensive renovation on their house a
few years ago. (I did their walnut floors with a fine shellac and wax
finish... killer.) But, on the exterior of this house/mansion, there are
extensive amounts of wood beam, decorative features, and panels. The client
is no longer happy with the look of the finish done during restoration (I
didn't do it); parts are sun-faded, and she wants to take everything down to
the original wood for a more natural-looking finish. Lots of mahogany, I
think, hard to tell, because...

... All this wood was finished with some crappy looking, dark walnut,
oil-based stain, perhaps MinWax. I have no clue how to remove that stuff, or
if it has penetrated so deeply that it'll never come out. I'll be going
there on Saturday to excavate a few areas to see how deep it runs. Sanding?
Sandblasting?

I can likely secure a crew to do sanding and scraping. In my usual one-off
woodworking, I favor a natural look such as we get from shellac. We'd want
to avoid any finish that a) fades too much in the sun, or b) obscures the
look of the original wood, and c) will last a good, long time.

What finish might be recommended for this exterior application? Are we
relegated to only standard commercial products, like Behr, etc? Is there any
shellac that is suitable for exterior application?

The client says, "This WILL be done," and I'm sure she means it. I just need
to know which direction to go in.

Thanks for any insight or pointers!

Rob

Rob... Check this out. www.messmers.com Look at their UV PLUS
specifications. I have just bought to do the framing on my elevated deck
support framing. Not have had time yet to try it. WW

Rob Hanson <[email protected]> wrote:

>-- I'd prefer an oil type finish rather than a film finish such as varnish. Oil would tend to crack and peel far less, even though it might have to be refreshed more often.

I've had good luck with Minwax exterior poly mixed in equal parts with pure Tung
Oil and BLO. It has lasted over five years, but it is a pretty sheltered
location.
-- Doug