Our air conditioner is on its last legs and will most likely not last the
summer -- it's 22 years old, so can't complain too much. The proposed
replacement is one of either, 1) 14 SEER American Standard, 2) 14 SEER
Rheem, or 3) 14.5 SEER Carrier. All of these are direct 5 ton replacements
for the existing unit.
Has anyone recently gone through a replacement or had experiences (good or
bad) with these manufacturers? Looking for data points in multiple places,
and folks on this newsgroup have a diversity of experience with multiple
things, so am asking for input.
Thanks in advance.
--
There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage
Rob Leatham
Dan Coby wrote:
> On 7/23/2010 8:47 PM, Mark & Juanita wrote:
>>
>> Our air conditioner is on its last legs and will most likely not last
>> the
>> summer -- it's 22 years old, so can't complain too much. The proposed
>> replacement is one of either, 1) 14 SEER American Standard, 2) 14 SEER
>> Rheem, or 3) 14.5 SEER Carrier. All of these are direct 5 ton
>> replacements for the existing unit.
>>
>
> I have an American Standard unit. I am not impressed. In six years it
> has been replaced once under warranty (but I still had to pay labor) and I
> just had another service to replace 3 pounds of coolant that It has lost
> in two years.
Thanks for the input. Your experience seems consistent with the
warranty. The Carrier and Rheem come with 10 year compressor, 10 year parts
warranties; the American Standard with 10 year compressor, but only 5 year
parts warranty. American Standard price though is only $124 less than the
Carrier and a full $852 more than the Rheem. Given that, the American
Standard doesn't seem competitive.
--
There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage
Rob Leatham
"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:5d7540bc-0757-4150-b774-be136e854d71@d37g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 24, 12:44 am, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Robatoy" wrote:
> >What kinda socialist scam are you running down there?
>
> -------------------------------
> One of those government programs to promote improving energy
> efficiency by getting all those Republicans to dig up their coffee
> cans full of moldy money and buy and install energy saving stuff.<G>
>
> Lew
Gee, a 5 ton AC doesn't sound like the kind of thing that a custodian
of God's Green Earth should be running.
Not to mention that a 14 SEER is considered minimum in this day and age.
But, we all know that many conservative types don't live in this day and
age.
Dave in CZ-land
> Do you know anyone in Tucson who has a camera on a long cable that could =
snake it through the ducts and
> inspect them for leaks? =A0We're concerned about both the integrity of th=
e "real" ducts
> at the joints, and the shape of the flex duct (one pice of which we found=
completely disconnected
> a year ago).
>
> And our regular HVAC guy is happy to redo all the ductwork, but not until=
the Fall, given the heat in the
> attic. =A0Is this what I'd expect froom any HVAC guy?
Andy
Call RiteWay Ventilating. They can do the duct thing. Ask for Rick.
Delay any hot task you are able to until at least October. Try 5
minutes on the hot roof miday to see why. And the attic will be
tougher. The ductwork redo is toughest. Unless you would like your
house cut up.
Bob AZ
Dear Leon:
On Jul 25, 4:25=A0pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > Interesting. Both my salesman and installer were leery
> > of the new Puron systems 8 years ago (due to
> > performance issues, not reliability) so I had the R-22(?)
> > system installed at their suggestion. Yes, I know
> > it will take an entire redo when this one breaks, but by
> > that time, it will be worth it. =A0I used to use R-12 back in
> > the day, installing systems in brand new trucks in
> > Phoenix one summer. =A0Aiyeeeeeeeeeeeee!
>
> Did you ever read up in any "trades" magazines as to
> why the refrigerants were mandated to be phased out
> for the so called "better version"? =A0Talk about politics.
Probably more "opinion" than "politics".
>=A0When I was in the automotive business years ago our
> trades publication that we subscribed to spelled it all
> out. =A0Apparently DuPont was about to have its Freon
> patent run out and would no longer have the market
> cornered, so to speak.
If you are interested in fact, the patent had expired 10 years before
the consideration of the ban, and 20 years before its use was banned.
>=A0So they came out with a replacement refrigerant that
> they would have the patent on again.
And its patent too had expired before the ban finally took effect.
DuPont would have loved it if it had been otherwise. The replacements
use more expensive fluorine in place of chlorine. Fluorine does not
argue with oxygen / ozone over bonding rights, it wins, so it has no
effect on ozone.
>=A0They sold it to our government leaders as being
> better for the environment,
And this isn't true, as it turns out. Some of these replacements mess
with the endocrine system of frogs, for example.
> the ozone layer.
Since the ozone hole has finally started shrinking, they may have that
part correct. Not really "politics" then is it?
>=A0That as it may be, it is worse for human contact.
>=A0If it was not going to be as harmful to the ozone
> layer why do they want it to all be recaptured when
> working on a system rather than let it go free as
> was done with R-12?
These compounds are so stable that the only place they can be broken
down, is in the energetic radiation that the ozone layer protects us
from. That we cannot find how this will harm us now, does not mean
there is no possible harm that increased concentrations cause (or
lawyers can assing in court).
Better not to treat the atmosphere as a waste dump either. Cats can
be trained not to foul their own nests, why can't we?
> This was the precursor to the global warming fad
> and now the climate change fad.
"fad" =3D/=3D loss of glaciers, increasing sea levels. Yes, there are a
bunch of chicken littles running around like "this is news", and "we
are all going to die". Things are changing, and whether or not we
caused it, we need to roll with the changes. Assigning blame is a
waste of effort.
If it cost money to make something, there should be money in recycling
it.
If we are off topic...
David A. Smith
"Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Our air conditioner is on its last legs and will most likely not last the
> summer -- it's 22 years old, so can't complain too much. The proposed
> replacement is one of either, 1) 14 SEER American Standard, 2) 14 SEER
> Rheem, or 3) 14.5 SEER Carrier. All of these are direct 5 ton
> replacements
> for the existing unit.
>
> Has anyone recently gone through a replacement or had experiences (good
> or
> bad) with these manufacturers? Looking for data points in multiple
> places,
> and folks on this newsgroup have a diversity of experience with multiple
> things, so am asking for input.
>
> Thanks in advance.
Our house originally had a Rheem and we had to have it worked on all the
time. In its life time 14 years, we spent enough to have replaced it at
least once.
Our current unit is 15 years old and still works well with only "1" switch
replaced as a preventative measure and a fan motot and starter capacitor
replaced.
What the AC guys have told me is to buy as cheap as you want, basically in
the last 20 or so years government standards on containing leaking freon
have gone up significantly. Basically the expensive repairs come in when
the system leaks freon and oil. This has a bad effect on longitivity. Our
15 year old system has never needed freon added and electricity usage has
actually gone down in the last 6 years. Yes I have data and charts to back
that up.
Our current unit is a Goodman, manufactured in Houston. I'd buy again.
Lew Hodgett wrote:
> Lobby Dosser wrote:
>
>> My 13 year old truck does not seem to put out the super cold AC
>> anymore,
> ---------------------------------
> You have a truck using 134A.
>
>
> If you don't take care of it, you could lose the compressor which is
> major $.
>
Unless it's a GM truck, then the compressor seals are going to fail
regardless of the 134A level, and just spew the stuff right out the front of
the compressor.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 7/24/2010 12:50 AM, Mark & Juanita wrote:
>> Dan Coby wrote:
>>
>>> On 7/23/2010 8:47 PM, Mark& Juanita wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Our air conditioner is on its last legs and will most likely not
>>>> last
>>>> the
>>>> summer -- it's 22 years old, so can't complain too much. The proposed
>>>> replacement is one of either, 1) 14 SEER American Standard, 2) 14 SEER
>>>> Rheem, or 3) 14.5 SEER Carrier. All of these are direct 5 ton
>>>> replacements for the existing unit.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I have an American Standard unit. I am not impressed. In six years it
>>> has been replaced once under warranty (but I still had to pay labor) and
>>> I
>>> just had another service to replace 3 pounds of coolant that It has lost
>>> in two years.
>>
>> Thanks for the input. Your experience seems consistent with the
>> warranty. The Carrier and Rheem come with 10 year compressor, 10 year
>> parts
>> warranties; the American Standard with 10 year compressor, but only 5
>> year
>> parts warranty. American Standard price though is only $124 less than
>> the
>> Carrier and a full $852 more than the Rheem. Given that, the American
>> Standard doesn't seem competitive.
>
> As a single family residential builder, let me say that Ed gave you the
> best advice ... With central air go with installation and service.
>
> Let me say it again: with central air, _installation_ is much more
> important than brand! :)
>
> The difference between US brands is basically "fit and finish", as the
> parts that make it an air conditioner are pretty much universal
> off-the-shelf, with the exact same parts used by all brand manufacturers
> in the US.
>
> IOW, forget the brand, go with a high SEER, 2 stage unit if you want the
> best efficiency and realized cooling, and make sure that your installer
> does a "Manual J" cooling-load calculation for your installation,
> preferably software based ... many free programs around if you want to
> double check yourself, like the following:
>
> http://3d2f.com/download/41-432-jloads-free-download.shtml
>
> It will cost you more for a properly sized, higher SEER unit 2 stage
> compression (about 30%), but I will guarantee you will make it back back
> many times over in energy costs over the life of the unit.
>
A fellow I went to K-12 school with, and who has remained a friend over the
years, is a Lennox dealer. The advice he gave me over the years is merely
an echo of what you've just said. Go with installation and service. FWIW,
he recommend Lennox's 2-stage high SEER unit for me to get installed in a
home we're thinking of buying. For my existing house, he recommended any 13
SEER box and TXV coil.
Nonny
"Robatoy" wrote:
>What kinda socialist scam are you running down there?
-------------------------------
One of those government programs to promote improving energy
efficiency by getting all those Republicans to dig up their coffee
cans full of moldy money and buy and install energy saving stuff.<G>
Lew
"Robatoy" wrote:
Gee, a 5 ton AC doesn't sound like the kind of thing that a custodian
of God's Green Earth should be running.
--------------------------------------------
Other than Canada Day, which is your summer, you need a furnace rather
than AC, so you are excused.
Same program works for either the heating or cooling industry.<G>
It's all about getting those coffee cans dug up and spending all that
old moldy money.<G>
Lew
"Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Our air conditioner is on its last legs and will most likely not last the
> summer -- it's 22 years old, so can't complain too much. The proposed
> replacement is one of either, 1) 14 SEER American Standard, 2) 14 SEER
> Rheem, or 3) 14.5 SEER Carrier. All of these are direct 5 ton
> replacements
> for the existing unit.
>
> Has anyone recently gone through a replacement or had experiences (good
> or
> bad) with these manufacturers? Looking for data points in multiple
> places,
> and folks on this newsgroup have a diversity of experience with multiple
> things, so am asking for input.
>
> Thanks in advance.
We have a 5 ton Rheem. It's almost ten years old and hasn't "burped" even
once.
We keep the house at 75° F. 24/7.
Max (in *HOT* El Paso)
Lobby Dosser wrote:
>My 13 year old truck does not seem to put out the super cold AC
>anymore,
---------------------------------
You have a truck using 134A.
I have had similar problems with a 99 Toyota P/U.
Each time a leaking "Schrader valve".
There are four (4) of them and sooner or later they all leak.
These days they are not expensive (China import), maybe $10/ea, but
you're looking at somewhere around $50/lb for 134A.
I've never been hit for more than about $80 in the past.
It all depends on how much 134A you need.
If you don't take care of it, you could lose the compressor which is
major $.
Lew
On 7/24/2010 4:16 PM, Leon wrote:
> Our current unit is 15 years old and still works well with only "1" switch
> replaced as a preventative measure and a fan motot and starter capacitor
> replaced.
>
> What the AC guys have told me is to buy as cheap as you want, basically in
> the last 20 or so years government standards on containing leaking freon
> have gone up significantly. Basically the expensive repairs come in when
> the system leaks freon and oil. This has a bad effect on longitivity. Our
> 15 year old system has never needed freon added and electricity usage has
> actually gone down in the last 6 years. Yes I have data and charts to back
> that up.
>
> Our current unit is a Goodman, manufactured in Houston. I'd buy again.
Which goes right back to what I said previously ... Goodman is also
re-branded as "Janitrol" and "Amana" and is used by most builders in
this area because they are inexpensive (but they indeed have the same
generic components as ALL the higher priced brands).
(Mine two units are also Goodman, but I install mostly American Standard
due to an excellent HVAC contractor relationship with one of the best
installation teams around). I used to use Goodman also, but when my old
HVAC contractor got sick and retired, I switched to the above mentioned.)
In a nutshell, a quality installation is what has got you such good luck
with your Goodman. There is a perception that, being a 'builder brand',
Goodman units aren't that great ... this is mainly due to the fact that
Goodman will sell to any subcontractor who walks in off the street, and
thus there are many, many substandard installs.
Once again, the major difference in central air brand names is the
installation ...
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
On Sat, 24 Jul 2010 17:35:48 -0700, Mark & Juanita
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Swingman wrote:
>
>... snip
>>
>> In a nutshell, a quality installation is what has got you such good luck
>> with your Goodman. There is a perception that, being a 'builder brand',
>> Goodman units aren't that great ... this is mainly due to the fact that
>> Goodman will sell to any subcontractor who walks in off the street, and
>> thus there are many, many substandard installs.
>>
>> Once again, the major difference in central air brand names is the
>> installation ...
>>
>
> I think you have it right there. In researching this, I'm finding that
>for every opinion, there is an equal but opposite opinion about whatever
>brand I'm looking at. I.e.:
>"American Standard sucks, it's the worst. My unit is noisy and breaks every
>season"
>"American Standard is great, my unit has been in since the stone age and
>I've never had moment's trouble"
>"Rheem sucks, it's the worst. My unit is noisy and breaks every season"
>"Rheem is great, my unit has been in since the stone age and I've never had
>moment's trouble"
>"Carrier sucks, it's the worst. My unit is noisy and breaks every season"
>"Carrier is great, my unit has been in since the stone age and I've never
>had moment's trouble"
>
> Only objective thing I've found so far is that Carrier apparently has had
>problems with condenser coils that rust out. These are coils that were
>meant to be submerged in condensed water that were rusting out. From what I
>can tell, Carrier has since come out with rust-protected coils.
The common thread in all your "examples" is the age of the unit. The
ones that have been in since the stone age, without exception, will
have been made when engineers, not accountants and stock price, made
the design decisions.
Although a lot of the older stuff is not quite as efficient, it
generally is a LOT more reliable!!!!
As for the statement that "the major difference in central air brand
names is the installation ..." I'll forcefully argue that - because
there are dealers/installers that will do exactly the same install on
an expensive top of the line carrier as they will on the cheapest
American Standard - and that goes both ways.
And I've NEVER seen steel coils in any air conditioner - so "rusting
out" is not an issue on the coils.
The later aluminum coils do tend to be a lot more fragile than either
the older aluminum ones or the even older copper ones.
[email protected] wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Jul 2010 17:35:48 -0700, Mark & Juanita
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Swingman wrote:
>>
>>... snip
>>>
>>> In a nutshell, a quality installation is what has got you such good luck
>>> with your Goodman. There is a perception that, being a 'builder brand',
>>> Goodman units aren't that great ... this is mainly due to the fact that
>>> Goodman will sell to any subcontractor who walks in off the street, and
>>> thus there are many, many substandard installs.
>>>
>>> Once again, the major difference in central air brand names is the
>>> installation ...
>>>
>>
... snip
>>
>> Only objective thing I've found so far is that Carrier apparently has
>> had
>>problems with condenser coils that rust out. These are coils that were
>>meant to be submerged in condensed water that were rusting out. From what
>>I can tell, Carrier has since come out with rust-protected coils.
... snip
> As for the statement that "the major difference in central air brand
> names is the installation ..." I'll forcefully argue that - because
> there are dealers/installers that will do exactly the same install on
> an expensive top of the line carrier as they will on the cheapest
> American Standard - and that goes both ways.
>
> And I've NEVER seen steel coils in any air conditioner - so "rusting
> out" is not an issue on the coils.
>
> The later aluminum coils do tend to be a lot more fragile than either
> the older aluminum ones or the even older copper ones.
That comment was based on the following:
<http://www.furnacecompare.com/air-conditioners/carrier/reviews/1/>, "Used a
reputable builder and HVAC installer 5 years ago on new home installation of
Carrier Puron system. Almost 5 years to the day, the coolant leaked out due
to rusting evaporator coil. Unbelievable! A manufactured part that is
supposed to be wet most of the time rusts through. That, folks, is poor
design and cutting costs at the manufacturing end, not poor installation. My
repairman said he has had to replace dozens of these coils in the last few
years. Carrier is supposedly proud of their new "Rust-proof" coil -- which
mine should have been in the first place. This explains about 80% of the
dissatisfied comments I have read about Carrier tonight. If yours is still
under warranty, insist on having your rusty coil replaced with the rust-
proof model, otherwise you will certainly be replacing it again in short
order "
There are are several similar comments on this set of pages that give
similar experiences.
--
There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage
Rob Leatham
On Jul 24, 12:44=A0am, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Robatoy" wrote:
> >What kinda socialist scam are you running down there?
>
> -------------------------------
> One of those government programs to promote improving energy
> efficiency by getting all those Republicans to dig up their coffee
> cans full of moldy money and buy and install energy saving stuff.<G>
>
> Lew
Gee, a 5 ton AC doesn't sound like the kind of thing that a custodian
of God's Green Earth should be running.
On Jul 24, 12:06=A0am, "Ed Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote:
> =A0I replaced my boiler with no out of pocked cash with the
> rebates, tax credits, state funded 0% financing and the oil savings is
> greater than the payments.
What kinda socialist scam are you running down there?
On Jul 24, 5:41=A0pm, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 7/24/2010 4:16 PM, Leon wrote:
>
> > Our current unit is 15 years old and still works well with only "1" swi=
tch
> > replaced as a preventative measure and a fan motot and starter capacito=
r
> > replaced.
>
> > What the AC guys have told me is to buy as cheap as you want, basically=
in
> > the last 20 or so years government standards on containing leaking freo=
n
> > have gone up significantly. =A0Basically the expensive repairs come in =
when
> > the system leaks freon and oil. =A0This has a bad effect on longitivity=
. =A0Our
> > 15 year old system has never needed freon added and electricity usage h=
as
> > actually gone down in the last 6 years. =A0Yes I have data and charts t=
o back
> > that up.
>
> > Our current unit is a Goodman, manufactured in Houston. =A0I'd buy agai=
n.
>
> Which goes right back to what I said previously ... Goodman is also
> re-branded as "Janitrol" and "Amana" and is used by most builders in
> this area because they are inexpensive (but they indeed have the same
> generic components as ALL the higher priced brands).
>
> (Mine two units are also Goodman, but I install mostly American Standard
> due to an excellent HVAC contractor relationship with one of the best
> installation teams around). I used to use Goodman also, but when my old
> HVAC contractor got sick and retired, I switched to the above mentioned.)
>
> In a nutshell, a quality installation is what has got you such good luck
> with your Goodman. There is a perception that, being a 'builder brand',
> Goodman units aren't that great ... this is mainly due to the fact that
> Goodman will sell to any subcontractor who walks in off the street, and
> thus there are many, many substandard installs.
>
> Once again, the major difference in central air brand names is the
> installation ...
>
> --www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 4/15/2010
> KarlC@ (the obvious)
I just had all my HVAC stuff redone. The installer walked me through
my house and pointed a few things out to me which made perfect sense.
I asked him point blank what AC ( I had already decided on the
furnace) is best value. He suggested an nicely featured Amana as, like
Leon pointed out, the regs need to be met. I went with this guy
because of his rep as an installer. He put the same Amana in his
house.... and considering the size and successes of his business, he
didn't chose it because of the money.
He then showed me, as a point of interest, the part numbers for the
compressor motors on a Carrier, Lennox and Amana.....al the same
motor. Like the good old days when you opened a Sony VCR and found
nothing but Hitachi parts.... the Lambourghini Gallardo has an Audi
engine... the Bentley a BMW mill....and a XC90 Volvo has a frikking
Yamaha engine.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 23 Jul 2010 21:53:07 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
> <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>On Jul 24, 12:44 am, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> "Robatoy" wrote:
>>> >What kinda socialist scam are you running down there?
>>>
>>> -------------------------------
>>> One of those government programs to promote improving energy
>>> efficiency by getting all those Republicans to dig up their coffee
>>> cans full of moldy money and buy and install energy saving stuff.<G>
>>>
>>> Lew
>>
>>Gee, a 5 ton AC doesn't sound like the kind of thing that a custodian
>>of God's Green Earth should be running.
>
> I bet Al Gore has at least a dozen of them (or the equivalent).
I'll bet so, too but they're 18 SEER AND solar-powered.
Dave in Houston
"Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
>>
>> "Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> Our air conditioner is on its last legs and will most likely not last
>>> the
>>> summer -- it's 22 years old, so can't complain too much. The proposed
>>> replacement is one of either, 1) 14 SEER American Standard, 2) 14 SEER
>>> Rheem, or 3) 14.5 SEER Carrier. All of these are direct 5 ton
>>> replacements
>>> for the existing unit.
>>>
>>> Has anyone recently gone through a replacement or had experiences (good
>>> or
>>> bad) with these manufacturers? Looking for data points in multiple
>>> places,
>>> and folks on this newsgroup have a diversity of experience with multiple
>>> things, so am asking for input.
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>> All three are good, reliable brands that have been around for decades.
>> I'd
>> be more concerned about the installer and what they will do. Given that
>> the
>> AC is 22 years old, has the house changed? More insulation? New windows?
>> Should a Manual J be done? Is the furnace going to be replaced at the
>> same time (assuming that is the setup you have)?
>>
>
> House was well-insulated when it was built (they guy who built it was
> tight with a nickel and took pains to minimize energy costs). The
> installer
> comes with good recommendations, so I'm satisfied with that end of it as
> best I can be. This is a heat pump unit (we don't have a furnace).
>
>
>> Check all the state rebates and tax credits available and utility company
>> rebates also. I replaced my boiler with no out of pocked cash with the
>> rebates, tax credits, state funded 0% financing and the oil savings is
>> greater than the payments.
>
> Installer has identified units that qualify for credits due to their
> efficiency. Electric company also has credits but he has indicated that
> he
> has had only a few people who have actually been able to get the electric
> company to actually fulfill that commitment. They will help with the
> paperwork.
>
> Right now, I'm leaning toward the Carrier unit; it is more expensive than
> the other two, but the American Standard comes with only a 5 year parts
> warranty, the Carrier and Rheem come with 10. Not sure the extra 1/2 SEER
> will fully cover the additional cost, but is sounds as if it may be a
> little
> more solid unit.
Might want to replace the ducts as well. Hard duct is always better but
even flex R8 was available as of two or three years ago.
Dave in Houston
Bob AZ wrote:
>
> Delay any hot task you are able to until at least October. Try 5
> minutes on the hot roof miday to see why. And the attic will be
> tougher. The ductwork redo is toughest. Unless you would like your
> house cut up.
>
Tips for working in the attic during the summer:
1. Put a water sprinkler on the roof. This makes a HUGE difference.
2. Disconnect one of the A/C ducts and use it to cool the attic. Don't
forget to reconnect it when done.
3. Start at 3:00 a.m. (You've got to use lights anyway, what diff does being
dark outside make?).
>
> =A0 Has anyone recently gone through a replacement or had experiences (go=
od or
> bad) with these manufacturers? =A0Looking for data points in multiple pla=
ces,
> and folks on this newsgroup have a diversity of experience with multiple
> things, so am asking for input.
Mark
A commercial building I am involved with, installed 9 each 5 ton
Carriers last year. 2 have failed this week, 1 month after the
warranty expired.
I have a Trane 4 ton unit, 19 SEER that as been faultless since new 9
years ago. Cheaper overall to run than an evaporative cooler in S AZ.
The house is super insulated and this is one of the features that keep
my electric so low. $122 a month year around. All electric house.
Look closely where your proposed ACs are manufactured. Possibly all
from the same factory in W Texas. Same machines but different labels.
Make sure the electric circuit is at least #8 wire with the correct
circuit breaker. The name plate on the AC will call out the circuit
breaker size.
Bob AZ
On Jul 23, 8:47=A0pm, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
> =A0 Our air conditioner is on its last legs and will most likely not last=
the
> summer -- it's 22 years old, so can't complain too much. =A0The proposed
> replacement is
Air conditioners don't have legs. If yours has a bad compressor
or leaks, or if a heat exchanger is damaged, why not fix what's wrong,
instead of thinking it all has to be 'replaced'? Aren't there
competent service personnel available in your area?
whit3rd wrote:
> On Jul 23, 8:47Â pm, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Our air conditioner is on its last legs and will most likely not last the
>> summer -- it's 22 years old, so can't complain too much. Â The proposed
>> replacement is
>
> Air conditioners don't have legs. If yours has a bad compressor
> or leaks, or if a heat exchanger is damaged, why not fix what's wrong,
> instead of thinking it all has to be 'replaced'? Aren't there
> competent service personnel available in your area?
Competent service person is the one who recommended replacement. Yes, the
compressor can be replaced as can the squirrel cage motor that is going out,
a couple of starting capacitors, and several other parts. That leaves the
coils that may or may not be close to leaking due to the high vibration
environment induced by the aging compressor. At this point, cost of service
and replacement of those parts starts approaching cost of complete unit
replacement. Complete unit replacement comes with higher efficiency and 10
year compressor and parts warranty == overall lower ownership cost that
justifies the replacement.
Not making this decision frivolously, this is someone who buys and drives
a vehicle until the wheels fall off and who will push the use of something
well past its lifetime. Sometimes replacement is the best solution.
--
There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage
Rob Leatham
Dave in Texas wrote:
>
> Gee, a 5 ton AC doesn't sound like the kind of thing that a custodian
> of God's Green Earth should be running.
>
> Not to mention that a 14 SEER is considered minimum in this day
> and age. But, we all know that many conservative types don't live in
> this day and age.
>
That's because we solved most of societies problems - to the extent they CAN
be solved - eons ago. Progressives keep coming up with ideas that didn't
work then and won't work now.
Here's an example: Our president wants the federal government subsidizing
alternative energy so that (inter alia) "... X thousand new jobs will be
created..." What he neglects to mention is the thousands of jobs that will
be lost.
Jobs created in the solar panel industry can result in jobs lost in coal
mining, meanwhile the guy painting houses has to pay additional taxes to
prop up the sunbeam scheme. (I'm assuming the unemployment compensation for
the coal miners will be offset by taxes on the solar panel people.)
"whit3rd" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:971c3d16-5085-4ea7-bebd-57b54d3db806@f33g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 23, 8:47 pm, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
> Our air conditioner is on its last legs and will most likely not last the
> summer -- it's 22 years old, so can't complain too much. The proposed
> replacement is
Air conditioners don't have legs. If yours has a bad compressor
or leaks, or if a heat exchanger is damaged, why not fix what's wrong,
instead of thinking it all has to be 'replaced'? Aren't there
competent service personnel available in your area?
Effecency will never be as good as a new unit. Pay back will be sooner with
a new unit.
"Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote
>> A 1997 vehicle should use R134 refrigerant. You can buy a can for about
>> $11.00 at most any auto parts store and a simple fill hose for about the
>> same. Lots of places carry a kit with a can and the hose combined for
>> $20 or so.
>
> THANKS!
Certainly worth a try, but keep an eye on it. Given the age of the system,
it is common for failure of seals and other expensive repairs.
Swingman wrote:
... snip
>
> In a nutshell, a quality installation is what has got you such good luck
> with your Goodman. There is a perception that, being a 'builder brand',
> Goodman units aren't that great ... this is mainly due to the fact that
> Goodman will sell to any subcontractor who walks in off the street, and
> thus there are many, many substandard installs.
>
> Once again, the major difference in central air brand names is the
> installation ...
>
I think you have it right there. In researching this, I'm finding that
for every opinion, there is an equal but opposite opinion about whatever
brand I'm looking at. I.e.:
"American Standard sucks, it's the worst. My unit is noisy and breaks every
season"
"American Standard is great, my unit has been in since the stone age and
I've never had moment's trouble"
"Rheem sucks, it's the worst. My unit is noisy and breaks every season"
"Rheem is great, my unit has been in since the stone age and I've never had
moment's trouble"
"Carrier sucks, it's the worst. My unit is noisy and breaks every season"
"Carrier is great, my unit has been in since the stone age and I've never
had moment's trouble"
Only objective thing I've found so far is that Carrier apparently has had
problems with condenser coils that rust out. These are coils that were
meant to be submerged in condensed water that were rusting out. From what I
can tell, Carrier has since come out with rust-protected coils.
--
There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage
Rob Leatham
On 7/24/2010 6:02 PM, Dan Coby wrote:
> On 7/24/2010 5:32 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>
>> "Dan Coby" <[email protected]> wrote
>>>
>>> I have an American Standard unit. I am not impressed. In six years it
>>> has
>>> been replaced once under warranty (but I still had to pay labor) and I
>>> just
>>> had another service to replace 3 pounds of coolant that It has lost in
>>> two
>>> years.
>>
>> Where was the coolant lost? That may be the fault of the installer, not
>> the unit itself. The installer makes the connections and if he does a
>> poor job, you pay. If it was lost from a bad brazed joint on the coil,
>> it is the fault of the manufacturer. If he replaced that much, he should
>> have also found and fixed the leak. If he did not, you got screwed.
>
> Where the coolant is leaking is not known. This is both the second
> compressor
> and the second AC guy.
Chances are it's in a wall. Unfortunately not uncommon. The leak leads
to your bad compressors. Ed is right, if the guy who replaced the unit
made no effort to effort to insure there was no other source of a leak,
no matter what brand unit you put in you still have the original problem.
Your other choice is to have the unit checked twice a year to keep it
from running low .. around here that would cost you an extra $300 to
$400 a year in service/refrigerant costs.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
Andrew Barss wrote:
> Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> : Our air conditioner is on its last legs and will most likely not last
> : the
... snip
>
> We replaced our quite old (I think it was installed in 1987) rooftop unit
> about four years ago. The new unit is a Rheem, and it works very well, and
> has needed no repairs since installation. I'd recommend it.
>
The one we have would have been installed in 1988
>
> There are two issues we have, but one is due to where it's installed, the
> other with
> the state of our aged ductwork. Ours is a combined AC and furnace, and
> the blower/furnace/filter part is in a closet inside the house, with the
> coil on the ground outside.
>
> Issue 1: The filter is electrostatic, and the unit had to be placed in
> the closet such that
> getting the filter out to clean it is a bit of a wiggle. And aligning the
> filter properly so one of the back corners doesn't drop inside the duct
> (i.e. getting it to seat properrly on its support) is a pain, as it's only
> a few inches off the ground, as mounted.
>
> Issue 2: Our ducts (both intake and output) are just undersized for the
> house, so we have some circulation issues, and once in a while, if the
> filter is dirty and one of the intakes is blocked
> by something (i.e. a hamper of clothes), the unit can ice up. But that's
> not a fault of the unit, it's the house it's put into.
>
> -- Andy Barss
Thanks for the input Andy. Rheem was the least expensive unit quoted, so
I have been a little leery about going with the cheapest system, but I
haven't seen anything yet that would indicate that it is either less capable
or less durable than the more expensive Carrier.
--
There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage
Rob Leatham
On 7/23/2010 8:47 PM, Mark & Juanita wrote:
>
> Our air conditioner is on its last legs and will most likely not last the
> summer -- it's 22 years old, so can't complain too much. The proposed
> replacement is one of either, 1) 14 SEER American Standard, 2) 14 SEER
> Rheem, or 3) 14.5 SEER Carrier. All of these are direct 5 ton replacements
> for the existing unit.
>
I have an American Standard unit. I am not impressed. In six years it has
been replaced once under warranty (but I still had to pay labor) and I just
had another service to replace 3 pounds of coolant that It has lost in two
years.
"Dan Coby" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I have an American Standard unit. I am not impressed. In six years it
> has
> been replaced once under warranty (but I still had to pay labor) and I
> just
> had another service to replace 3 pounds of coolant that It has lost in two
> years.
My 5-ton American Standard is in it's eleventh year this summer (ten
year warranty); had two pounds of refrigerant added two years ago and the
contacts replaced at the same time. I do believe that TRANE and American
Standard are one and the same.
Dave in Houston
"HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Dave in Texas wrote:
>>
>> Gee, a 5 ton AC doesn't sound like the kind of thing that a custodian
>> of God's Green Earth should be running.
>>
>> Not to mention that a 14 SEER is considered minimum in this day
>> and age. But, we all know that many conservative types don't live in
>> this day and age.
>>
>
> That's because we solved most of societies problems - to the extent they
> CAN be solved - eons ago. Progressives keep coming up with ideas that
> didn't work then and won't work now.
>
> Here's an example: Our president wants the federal government subsidizing
> alternative energy so that (inter alia) "... X thousand new jobs will be
> created..." What he neglects to mention is the thousands of jobs that will
> be lost.
>
> Jobs created in the solar panel industry can result in jobs lost in coal
> mining, meanwhile the guy painting houses has to pay additional taxes to
> prop up the sunbeam scheme. (I'm assuming the unemployment compensation
> for the coal miners will be offset by taxes on the solar panel people.)
How easily you overlook the tens of billions of dollars in subsidies and
tax breaks we give the petroleum industry.
If everyone thought like you a hundred years ago Henry Ford might never
have come up with the assembly line which put [God knows how many]
blacksmiths out of work. It's called a better mouse trap. I'm certain you
will now maintain that solar, wind, and other non-carbon based, non-dead
dinosaur-derived fuels are unnecessary and are nothing more than some giant
liberal conspiracy to funnel brazillions of dollars to Al Gore who, as we
all know, made all this clean energy crap up. How many jobs do you think
will be created in the nuclear energy industry due to the eight billion
dollars in subsidies the administration has proposed? How many fewer
hammers do you think Stanley or Eastwing sells since the nail gun came
along? Is Diston still in business? Adapt or get left behind, Bub.
As better (or cleaner) ways to do things evolve the inventers and
entrepreneurs are the winners and the old technologies and ways are the
losers. While the lobbyists and their conservative minions continue to
protect the status quo the rest of the world is leaving the U.S. behind. II
expect China and India to surpass the U.S. as global economic powers in my
lifetime. I suppose you would have us keep sending our petro dollars to
countries that have little fondness for us and who in turn fund radical
groups that would do us in.
Dave in the Socialist Czech Republic
Dave
Dave in Texas wrote:
>>
>> That's because we solved most of societies problems - to the extent
>> they CAN be solved - eons ago. Progressives keep coming up with
>> ideas that didn't work then and won't work now.
>>
>> Here's an example: Our president wants the federal government
>> subsidizing alternative energy so that (inter alia) "... X thousand
>> new jobs will be created..." What he neglects to mention is the
>> thousands of jobs that will be lost.
>>
>> Jobs created in the solar panel industry can result in jobs lost in
>> coal mining, meanwhile the guy painting houses has to pay additional
>> taxes to prop up the sunbeam scheme. (I'm assuming the unemployment
>> compensation for the coal miners will be offset by taxes on the
>> solar panel people.)
See imbeded retorts.
>
> How easily you overlook the tens of billions of dollars in
> subsidies and tax breaks we give the petroleum industry.
I don't overlook it. Whether the oil industry gets tax breaks has not
bearing, in my mind, over whether solar et al should get tax breaks. If you
want to expand the discussion, yes, tax breaks for oil, gas, and buggy whips
should be eliminated. The tax laws, in the main, should be used to raise
revenue, not pick winners and losers in the marketplace.
> If everyone thought like you a hundred years ago Henry Ford might
> never have come up with the assembly line which put [God knows how
> many] blacksmiths out of work. It's called a better mouse trap. I'm
> certain you will now maintain that solar, wind, and other non-carbon
> based, non-dead dinosaur-derived fuels are unnecessary and are
> nothing more than some giant liberal conspiracy to funnel brazillions
> of dollars to Al Gore who, as we all know, made all this clean energy
> crap up. How many jobs do you think will be created in the nuclear
> energy industry due to the eight billion dollars in subsidies the
> administration has proposed? How many fewer hammers do you think
> Stanley or Eastwing sells since the nail gun came along? Is Diston
> still in business? Adapt or get left behind, Bub.
You miss the point - I'm not opposed to innovation; I'm opposed to
government defining the direction of progress.
Henry Ford did not get government assistance to re-jigger the production of
automobiles nor did the American public get tax breaks to buy a Model-T. You
can't name a nail-gun manufacturer who got government subsidies.
>
> As better (or cleaner) ways to do things evolve the inventers and
> entrepreneurs are the winners and the old technologies and ways are
> the losers.
Agreed. But shouldn't it be a level playing field?
> While the lobbyists and their conservative minions
> continue to protect the status quo the rest of the world is leaving
> the U.S. behind.
Huh? China is opening one coal-fired power plant per week!
> II expect China and India to surpass the U.S. as
> global economic powers in my lifetime. I suppose you would have us
> keep sending our petro dollars to countries that have little fondness
> for us and who in turn fund radical groups that would do us in.
If the providers of energy can supply oil at a cheaper price than we can
produce it ourselves, yeah, we should buy from them. In a free market,
however, they can't. Oil is fungible. If the world market is $80/bbl and we
can produce oil profitably at $30/bbl, we're STILL going to be buying Saudi
oil (because our local sources will be selling our oil to Japan).
As for "petro dollars to countries that fund radical groups," I remind you
that Canada is our largest supplier of petroleum products, followed by
(2009) Mexico. Still, you may be on to something; I've always been leery of
the French in Canada (and Mexico was once ruled by the French).
One more clue: it is physically impossible to run this country off of
sunbeams. A solar collector farm just to supply the energy needs of
California (~50Gw) would be as large as the Los Angeles basin (some 1200
square miles). The only way to improve on this is to move the orbit of the
earth closer to the sun.
As for energy independence, we Texans are in pretty good shape. We're not
connected to either of the two national electrical grids, have a significant
amount of oil and 70% of the nation's refining capacity. We also have more
wind energy facilities than the rest of the country combined, and even two
nuclear plants. We're lagging in hydroelectric, admittedly, but if solar
ever becomes feasible, we've got a lot of cows that could benefit from the
shade.
On 7/24/2010 4:16 PM, Leon wrote:
> Our current unit is a Goodman, manufactured in Houston. I'd buy again.
I forgot to mention that when I used Goodman, I spec'ed expansion valves
instead of the flow rate tubes they come with, which may or may not be
sized correctly by the installer for the particular install ... it makes
a big difference in this humid climate to have a properly balanced
refrigerant system.
Although I had to add an extra start capacitor on my Goodman units, it
is also one of the reasons I can keep my AC at 80 and when you walk in
from outside it feels much cooler than the actual temperature due to the
lower humidity inside.
I'd bet that whoever installed your AC had enough snap to know the
difference and/or knew how to balance the system with correctly sized
flow rate tubes to get optimum evaporation in the condenser ...
Installation, installation, installation .... :)
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
"Dave in Texas" <[email protected]> wrote
> My 5-ton American Standard is in it's eleventh year this summer (ten
> year warranty); had two pounds of refrigerant added two years ago and the
> contacts replaced at the same time.
See my reply to Dan. Do you know why the coolant was lost?
On Fri, 23 Jul 2010 21:44:23 -0700, "Lew Hodgett"
<[email protected]> wrote the following:
>
>"Robatoy" wrote:
>
>>What kinda socialist scam are you running down there?
>-------------------------------
>One of those government programs to promote improving energy
>efficiency by getting all those Republicans to dig up their coffee
>cans full of moldy money and buy and install energy saving stuff.<G>
Tell us about Liberal Algore's moldy money for his old Tennessee
mansion, Lew.
--
Exercise ferments the humors, casts them into their proper channels,
throws off redundancies, and helps nature in those secret distributions,
without which the body cannot subsist in its vigor, nor the soul act
with cheerfulness. -- Joseph Addison, The Spectator, July 12, 1711
On Sat, 24 Jul 2010 08:56:08 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 7/24/2010 12:50 AM, Mark & Juanita wrote:
>> Dan Coby wrote:
>>
>>> On 7/23/2010 8:47 PM, Mark& Juanita wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Our air conditioner is on its last legs and will most likely not last
>>>> the
>>>> summer -- it's 22 years old, so can't complain too much. The proposed
>>>> replacement is one of either, 1) 14 SEER American Standard, 2) 14 SEER
>>>> Rheem, or 3) 14.5 SEER Carrier. All of these are direct 5 ton
>>>> replacements for the existing unit.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I have an American Standard unit. I am not impressed. In six years it
>>> has been replaced once under warranty (but I still had to pay labor) and I
>>> just had another service to replace 3 pounds of coolant that It has lost
>>> in two years.
>>
>> Thanks for the input. Your experience seems consistent with the
>> warranty. The Carrier and Rheem come with 10 year compressor, 10 year parts
>> warranties; the American Standard with 10 year compressor, but only 5 year
>> parts warranty. American Standard price though is only $124 less than the
>> Carrier and a full $852 more than the Rheem. Given that, the American
>> Standard doesn't seem competitive.
>
>As a single family residential builder, let me say that Ed gave you the
>best advice ... With central air go with installation and service.
>
>Let me say it again: with central air, _installation_ is much more
>important than brand! :)
>
>The difference between US brands is basically "fit and finish", as the
>parts that make it an air conditioner are pretty much universal
>off-the-shelf, with the exact same parts used by all brand manufacturers
>in the US.
>
>IOW, forget the brand, go with a high SEER, 2 stage unit if you want the
>best efficiency and realized cooling, and make sure that your installer
>does a "Manual J" cooling-load calculation for your installation,
>preferably software based ... many free programs around if you want to
>double check yourself, like the following:
>
>http://3d2f.com/download/41-432-jloads-free-download.shtml
>
>It will cost you more for a properly sized, higher SEER unit 2 stage
>compression (about 30%), but I will guarantee you will make it back back
>many times over in energy costs over the life of the unit.
Any words of wisdom on the mini-split units? From what I can put together
these seem ideal for my use. I'm currently working on the space over the
garage for my shop (I'll eventually turn it into another bedroom, when I
sell). Instead of tying into the 2.5T upstairs unit (the downstairs has a
separate 3.5T unit). I was thinking about a mini-split unit. The mini-split
unit might even be easier than ducting the few feet (the air handler is in
that space) and it would help keep dust out of the house.
On Jul 23, 8:47 pm, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
> Our air conditioner is on its last legs and will most likely not last the
> summer -- it's 22 years old, so can't complain too much. The proposed
> replacement is one of either, 1) 14 SEER American Standard, 2) 14 SEER
> Rheem, or 3) 14.5 SEER Carrier. All of these are direct 5 ton replacements
> for the existing unit.
>
> Has anyone recently gone through a replacement or had experiences (good or
> bad) with these manufacturers? Looking for data points in multiple places,
> and folks on this newsgroup have a diversity of experience with multiple
> things, so am asking for input.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> --
>
> There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage
>
> Rob Leatham
FWIW, there's a Rheem parts distributer in Tucson. That's one pretty
good reason the local technicians prefer Rheem. Tom
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
> "Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Our air conditioner is on its last legs and will most likely not last
>> the
>> summer -- it's 22 years old, so can't complain too much. The proposed
>> replacement is one of either, 1) 14 SEER American Standard, 2) 14 SEER
>> Rheem, or 3) 14.5 SEER Carrier. All of these are direct 5 ton
>> replacements
>> for the existing unit.
>>
>> Has anyone recently gone through a replacement or had experiences (good
>> or
>> bad) with these manufacturers? Looking for data points in multiple
>> places,
>> and folks on this newsgroup have a diversity of experience with multiple
>> things, so am asking for input.
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>
> All three are good, reliable brands that have been around for decades.
> I'd
> be more concerned about the installer and what they will do. Given that
> the
> AC is 22 years old, has the house changed? More insulation? New windows?
> Should a Manual J be done? Is the furnace going to be replaced at the
> same time (assuming that is the setup you have)?
>
House was well-insulated when it was built (they guy who built it was
tight with a nickel and took pains to minimize energy costs). The installer
comes with good recommendations, so I'm satisfied with that end of it as
best I can be. This is a heat pump unit (we don't have a furnace).
> Check all the state rebates and tax credits available and utility company
> rebates also. I replaced my boiler with no out of pocked cash with the
> rebates, tax credits, state funded 0% financing and the oil savings is
> greater than the payments.
Installer has identified units that qualify for credits due to their
efficiency. Electric company also has credits but he has indicated that he
has had only a few people who have actually been able to get the electric
company to actually fulfill that commitment. They will help with the
paperwork.
Right now, I'm leaning toward the Carrier unit; it is more expensive than
the other two, but the American Standard comes with only a 5 year parts
warranty, the Carrier and Rheem come with 10. Not sure the extra 1/2 SEER
will fully cover the additional cost, but is sounds as if it may be a little
more solid unit.
--
There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage
Rob Leatham
On Jul 29, 11:03=A0am, dlzc <[email protected]> wrote:
> If you are interested in fact,
LOL !!!
New around here, are ya' ??
On Sun, 25 Jul 2010 22:25:42 -0500, "HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Bob AZ wrote:
>>
>> Delay any hot task you are able to until at least October. Try 5
>> minutes on the hot roof miday to see why. And the attic will be
>> tougher. The ductwork redo is toughest. Unless you would like your
>> house cut up.
>>
>
>Tips for working in the attic during the summer:
>1. Put a water sprinkler on the roof. This makes a HUGE difference.
>2. Disconnect one of the A/C ducts and use it to cool the attic. Don't
>forget to reconnect it when done.
>3. Start at 3:00 a.m. (You've got to use lights anyway, what diff does being
>dark outside make?).
4. Wait until January.
I choose #4. well, at least mid-September (I'll have to get the AC in by
January). I can work at 90-100F, but 120-140 isn't going to happen.
"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Interesting. Both my salesman and installer were leery of the new
> Puron systems 8 years ago (due to performance issues, not reliability)
> so I had the R-22(?) system installed at their suggestion. Yes, I know
> it will take an entire redo when this one breaks, but by that time, it
> will be worth it. I used to use R-12 back in the day, installing
> systems in brand new trucks in Phoenix one summer. Aiyeeeeeeeeeeeee!
>
Did you ever read up in any "trades" magazines as to why the refrigerants
were mandated to be phased out for the so called "better version"? Talk
about politics. When I was in the automotive business years ago our trades
publication that we subscribed to spelled it all out. Apparently DuPont was
about to have its Freon patent run out and would no longer have the market
cornered, so to speak. So they came out with a replacement refrigerant that
they would have the patent on again. They sold it to our government leaders
as being better for the environment, the ozone layer. That as it may be, it
is worse for human contact. If it was not going to be as harmful to the
ozone layer why do they want it to all be recaptured when working on a
system rather than let it go free as was done with R-12?
This was the precursor to the global warming fad and now the climate change
fad.
On 7/24/2010 7:28 AM, HeyBub wrote:
> Dave in Texas wrote:
>>
>> Gee, a 5 ton AC doesn't sound like the kind of thing that a custodian
>> of God's Green Earth should be running.
>>
>> Not to mention that a 14 SEER is considered minimum in this day
>> and age. But, we all know that many conservative types don't live in
>> this day and age.
>>
>
> That's because we solved most of societies problems - to the extent they CAN
> be solved - eons ago. Progressives keep coming up with ideas that didn't
> work then and won't work now.
>
> Here's an example: Our president wants the federal government subsidizing
> alternative energy so that (inter alia) "... X thousand new jobs will be
> created..." What he neglects to mention is the thousands of jobs that will
> be lost.
>
> Jobs created in the solar panel industry can result in jobs lost in coal
> mining, meanwhile the guy painting houses has to pay additional taxes to
> prop up the sunbeam scheme. (I'm assuming the unemployment compensation for
> the coal miners will be offset by taxes on the solar panel people.)
And he's totally ignoring the fact that the Chinese can make perfectly
adequate solar panels cheaper than we can.
Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
: Our air conditioner is on its last legs and will most likely not last the
: summer -- it's 22 years old, so can't complain too much. The proposed
: replacement is one of either, 1) 14 SEER American Standard, 2) 14 SEER
: Rheem, or 3) 14.5 SEER Carrier. All of these are direct 5 ton replacements
: for the existing unit.
: Has anyone recently gone through a replacement or had experiences (good or
: bad) with these manufacturers? Looking for data points in multiple places,
: and folks on this newsgroup have a diversity of experience with multiple
: things, so am asking for input.
We replaced our quite old (I think it was installed in 1987) rooftop unit about four years ago.
The new unit is a Rheem, and it works very well, and has needed no repairs since installation.
I'd recommend it.
There are two issues we have, but one is due to where it's installed, the other with
the state of our aged ductwork. Ours is a combined AC and furnace, and the blower/furnace/filter
part is in a closet inside the house, with the coil on the ground outside.
Issue 1: The filter is electrostatic, and the unit had to be placed in the closet such that
getting the filter out to clean it is a bit of a wiggle. And aligning the filter properly
so one of the back corners doesn't drop inside the duct (i.e. getting it to seat properrly on its support)
is a pain, as it's only a few inches off the ground, as mounted.
Issue 2: Our ducts (both intake and output) are just undersized for the house, so we have some
circulation issues, and once in a while, if the filter is dirty and one of the intakes is blocked
by something (i.e. a hamper of clothes), the unit can ice up. But that's not a fault of the unit, it's the
house it's put into.
-- Andy Barss
This is a followup to Mark's question, with a couple questions of my own for Tucson
folks. Our ductwork is really nasty --- some hard sheet metal, with who knows what sealing it
(or failing to do so), and a lot of old, uninsulated, substadard and undersized flexduct.
Do you know anyone in Tucson who has a camera on a long cable that could snake it through the ducts and
inspect them for leaks? We're concerned about both the integrity of the "real" ducts
at the joints, and the shape of the flex duct (one pice of which we found completely disconnected
a year ago).
And our regular HVAC guy is happy to redo all the ductwork, but not until the Fall, given the heat in the
attic. Is this what I'd expect froom any HVAC guy?
Thanks --
-- Andy BArss
Andrew Barss <[email protected]> wrote:
: Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
: : Our air conditioner is on its last legs and will most likely not last the
: : summer -- it's 22 years old, so can't complain too much. The proposed
: : replacement is one of either, 1) 14 SEER American Standard, 2) 14 SEER
: : Rheem, or 3) 14.5 SEER Carrier. All of these are direct 5 ton replacements
: : for the existing unit.
: : Has anyone recently gone through a replacement or had experiences (good or
: : bad) with these manufacturers? Looking for data points in multiple places,
: : and folks on this newsgroup have a diversity of experience with multiple
: : things, so am asking for input.
: We replaced our quite old (I think it was installed in 1987) rooftop unit about four years ago.
: The new unit is a Rheem, and it works very well, and has needed no repairs since installation.
: I'd recommend it.
: There are two issues we have, but one is due to where it's installed, the other with
: the state of our aged ductwork. Ours is a combined AC and furnace, and the blower/furnace/filter
: part is in a closet inside the house, with the coil on the ground outside.
: Issue 1: The filter is electrostatic, and the unit had to be placed in the closet such that
: getting the filter out to clean it is a bit of a wiggle. And aligning the filter properly
: so one of the back corners doesn't drop inside the duct (i.e. getting it to seat properrly on its support)
: is a pain, as it's only a few inches off the ground, as mounted.
: Issue 2: Our ducts (both intake and output) are just undersized for the house, so we have some
: circulation issues, and once in a while, if the filter is dirty and one of the intakes is blocked
: by something (i.e. a hamper of clothes), the unit can ice up. But that's not a fault of the unit, it's the
: house it's put into.
: -- Andy Barss
--
<o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o>
Andy Barss
Department of Linguistics, University of Arizona
Communications 114A, 626-3284
<o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o>
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 7/24/2010 6:02 PM, Dan Coby wrote:
>> On 7/24/2010 5:32 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>>
>>> "Dan Coby" <[email protected]> wrote
>>>>
>>>> I have an American Standard unit. I am not impressed. In six years it
>>>> has
>>>> been replaced once under warranty (but I still had to pay labor) and I
>>>> just
>>>> had another service to replace 3 pounds of coolant that It has lost in
>>>> two
>>>> years.
>>>
>>> Where was the coolant lost? That may be the fault of the installer, not
>>> the unit itself. The installer makes the connections and if he does a
>>> poor job, you pay. If it was lost from a bad brazed joint on the coil,
>>> it is the fault of the manufacturer. If he replaced that much, he should
>>> have also found and fixed the leak. If he did not, you got screwed.
>>
>> Where the coolant is leaking is not known. This is both the second
>> compressor
>> and the second AC guy.
>
> Chances are it's in a wall. Unfortunately not uncommon. The leak leads to
> your bad compressors. Ed is right, if the guy who replaced the unit made
> no effort to effort to insure there was no other source of a leak, no
> matter what brand unit you put in you still have the original problem.
>
> Your other choice is to have the unit checked twice a year to keep it from
> running low .. around here that would cost you an extra $300 to $400 a
> year in service/refrigerant costs.
My 13 year old truck does not seem to put out the super cold AC anymore, so
I stopped in a vehicle AC place to get an idea of the cost to top up the
refrigerant. 'Bout passed out, $150-200 and UP. Decided there aren't enough
really hot days around here for that, but it sure beats $30 a Month!
In article <[email protected]>,
Lobby Dosser <[email protected]> wrote:
<...snipped...>
>My 13 year old truck does not seem to put out the super cold AC anymore, so
>I stopped in a vehicle AC place to get an idea of the cost to top up the
>refrigerant. 'Bout passed out, $150-200 and UP. Decided there aren't enough
>really hot days around here for that, but it sure beats $30 a Month!
>
A 1997 vehicle should use R134 refrigerant. You can buy a can for about
$11.00 at most any auto parts store and a simple fill hose for about the
same. Lots of places carry a kit with a can and the hose combined for
$20 or so.
--
Often wrong, never in doubt.
Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org
Bob AZ <[email protected]> wrote:
:> Do you know anyone in Tucson who has a camera on a long cable that could snake it through the ducts and
:> inspect them for leaks? We're concerned about both the integrity of the "real" ducts
:> at the joints, and the shape of the flex duct (one pice of which we found completely disconnected
:> a year ago).
:>
:> And our regular HVAC guy is happy to redo all the ductwork, but not until the Fall, given the heat in the
:> attic. Is this what I'd expect froom any HVAC guy?
: Andy
: Call RiteWay Ventilating. They can do the duct thing. Ask for Rick.
: Delay any hot task you are able to until at least October. Try 5
: minutes on the hot roof miday to see why. And the attic will be
: tougher. The ductwork redo is toughest. Unless you would like your
: house cut up.
: Bob AZ
His request to wait seemed perfectly reasonable to me -- I've been on the
roof, and also in my attic, in midsummer, and I can't imagine lasting more
than a few minutes in the latter. But a couple of locals scoffed and said
I need a new duct guy, so thanks for the confirmation that he (and I) are
being reasonable.
Part of the pressure is that in addition ot replcing the ductwork, he'll
be replumbing the house -- we had a nasty flood due to a burst pipe in the
attic last month, and the rest of it isn't in any better condition. I'll
just pray it holds till cooler weather!
-- Andy Barss
"Larry W" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Lobby Dosser <[email protected]> wrote:
> <...snipped...>
>>My 13 year old truck does not seem to put out the super cold AC anymore,
>>so
>>I stopped in a vehicle AC place to get an idea of the cost to top up the
>>refrigerant. 'Bout passed out, $150-200 and UP. Decided there aren't
>>enough
>>really hot days around here for that, but it sure beats $30 a Month!
>>
>
> A 1997 vehicle should use R134 refrigerant. You can buy a can for about
> $11.00 at most any auto parts store and a simple fill hose for about the
> same. Lots of places carry a kit with a can and the hose combined for
> $20 or so.
THANKS!
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Lobby Dosser wrote:
>
>>My 13 year old truck does not seem to put out the super cold AC anymore,
> ---------------------------------
> You have a truck using 134A.
>
> I have had similar problems with a 99 Toyota P/U.
>
> Each time a leaking "Schrader valve".
>
> There are four (4) of them and sooner or later they all leak.
>
> These days they are not expensive (China import), maybe $10/ea, but you're
> looking at somewhere around $50/lb for 134A.
>
> I've never been hit for more than about $80 in the past.
>
> It all depends on how much 134A you need.
>
> If you don't take care of it, you could lose the compressor which is major
> $.
>
> Lew
>
Thanks, Lew!
"Ed Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Dan Coby" <[email protected]> wrote
>>
>> Where the coolant is leaking is not known. This is both the second
>> compressor
>> and the second AC guy.
>
> I hope the third guy is better.
>
> The AC in one of my cars stopped working under warranty. Dealer fixed it,
> but two weeks later, same problem. Fixed it again, but lasted only four
> days. Fixed again but did not even last two miles. I turned around and
> went back. I had the dealership owner, service manager, and the tech that
> did the repair outside looking at my car. They all said they could not
> find the leak. Then, I asked, "did you check the evaporator?" The reply
> was "oh, they NEVER leak". You can guess the rest of the story.
Well! The evaporator is way too hard to get to to check. ;~(
"Andrew Barss" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Bob AZ <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Part of the pressure is that in addition ot replcing the ductwork, he'll
> be replumbing the house -- we had a nasty flood due to a burst pipe in the
> attic last month, and the rest of it isn't in any better condition. I'll
> just pray it holds till cooler weather!
Do you have metal pipes, perhaps rusting pipes? There is a fix other than
repiping and generally comes with a warranty that far out lasts a repipe
warranty. It is MUCH less expensive, takes Much less time, and in my
father's case you would never know thhe plumbers were there those 3 days.
My dad's galvanized pipes were rusting and leaking and I was sure it was
only a matter of time before I had to go in and make more repairs.
Enter, Epoxy coating inside the pipes.
http://www.houstonplumber.com/products-and-services/ace-duraflo-epipe/about-ace-durafloepipe.php
Ther is probably some one locally that can do this for you also.
On Sat, 24 Jul 2010 00:06:47 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
<[email protected]> wrote the following:
>
>"Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Our air conditioner is on its last legs and will most likely not last the
>> summer -- it's 22 years old, so can't complain too much. The proposed
>> replacement is one of either, 1) 14 SEER American Standard, 2) 14 SEER
>> Rheem, or 3) 14.5 SEER Carrier. All of these are direct 5 ton
>> replacements
>> for the existing unit.
>>
>> Has anyone recently gone through a replacement or had experiences (good
>> or
>> bad) with these manufacturers? Looking for data points in multiple
>> places,
>> and folks on this newsgroup have a diversity of experience with multiple
>> things, so am asking for input.
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>
>All three are good, reliable brands that have been around for decades. I'd
American Standard makes toilets (OK, they started out with steam
radiators), Rheem makes water heaters , and Carrier is an HVAC maker
(Willis Carrier is the Father of Cool; he invented A/C.)
I found that I trusted Carrier more and bought a 96% efficient $6k
Carrier HVAC system when I moved into this house. YMMV.
>be more concerned about the installer and what they will do. Given that the
>AC is 22 years old, has the house changed? More insulation? New windows?
>Should a Manual J be done? Is the furnace going to be replaced at the same
>time (assuming that is the setup you have)?
EXCELLENT questions, Ed. Rather than dumping a couple grand into
refitting an old, dying system, swap it all out with new machines and
ducting for a best-fitted house. The comfort alone is worth the cost,
which might not be as different as one would think.
I saved about a grand by doing the wiring for the units myself. I ran
a 10/3 Romex out for the condenser unit, installed an attic lighting
string, and ran 12/2 Romex up to the evap/heat unit. This was my
first high efficiency unit and I'm still amazed at the PVC exhaust
tubing and the teppid air coming out of it when it's in full swing
heating.
>Check all the state rebates and tax credits available and utility company
>rebates also. I replaced my boiler with no out of pocked cash with the
>rebates, tax credits, state funded 0% financing and the oil savings is
>greater than the payments.
Good job!
--
Exercise ferments the humors, casts them into their proper channels,
throws off redundancies, and helps nature in those secret distributions,
without which the body cannot subsist in its vigor, nor the soul act
with cheerfulness. -- Joseph Addison, The Spectator, July 12, 1711
On 7/24/2010 5:32 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
> "Dan Coby" <[email protected]> wrote
>>
>> I have an American Standard unit. I am not impressed. In six years it has
>> been replaced once under warranty (but I still had to pay labor) and I
>> just
>> had another service to replace 3 pounds of coolant that It has lost in
>> two
>> years.
>
> Where was the coolant lost? That may be the fault of the installer, not
> the unit itself. The installer makes the connections and if he does a
> poor job, you pay. If it was lost from a bad brazed joint on the coil,
> it is the fault of the manufacturer. If he replaced that much, he should
> have also found and fixed the leak. If he did not, you got screwed.
Where the coolant is leaking is not known. This is both the second compressor
and the second AC guy.
Swingman wrote:
> On 7/24/2010 12:50 AM, Mark & Juanita wrote:
>> Dan Coby wrote:
>>
>>> On 7/23/2010 8:47 PM, Mark& Juanita wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Our air conditioner is on its last legs and will most likely not
>>>> last the
>>>> summer -- it's 22 years old, so can't complain too much. The proposed
>>>> replacement is one of either, 1) 14 SEER American Standard, 2) 14 SEER
>>>> Rheem, or 3) 14.5 SEER Carrier. All of these are direct 5 ton
>>>> replacements for the existing unit.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I have an American Standard unit. I am not impressed. In six years it
>>> has been replaced once under warranty (but I still had to pay labor) and
>>> I just had another service to replace 3 pounds of coolant that It has
>>> lost in two years.
>>
>> Thanks for the input. Your experience seems consistent with the
>> warranty. The Carrier and Rheem come with 10 year compressor, 10 year
>> parts warranties; the American Standard with 10 year compressor, but only
>> 5 year
>> parts warranty. American Standard price though is only $124 less than
>> the
>> Carrier and a full $852 more than the Rheem. Given that, the American
>> Standard doesn't seem competitive.
>
> As a single family residential builder, let me say that Ed gave you the
> best advice ... With central air go with installation and service.
>
> Let me say it again: with central air, _installation_ is much more
> important than brand! :)
>
Swing, thanks for weighing in here. I'm going with someone that, as best
I can ascertain, will do the job right and stand behind what he has done.
> The difference between US brands is basically "fit and finish", as the
> parts that make it an air conditioner are pretty much universal
> off-the-shelf, with the exact same parts used by all brand manufacturers
> in the US.
>
Thanks. I'm trying to figure out why the Rheem bid is ~$900 lower than
the Carrier unit. 1/2 SEER doesn't seem to be a differentiator in this case
(14 vs. 14.5).
> IOW, forget the brand, go with a high SEER, 2 stage unit if you want the
> best efficiency and realized cooling, and make sure that your installer
> does a "Manual J" cooling-load calculation for your installation,
> preferably software based ... many free programs around if you want to
> double check yourself, like the following:
>
> http://3d2f.com/download/41-432-jloads-free-download.shtml
>
> It will cost you more for a properly sized, higher SEER unit 2 stage
> compression (about 30%), but I will guarantee you will make it back back
> many times over in energy costs over the life of the unit.
>
I think we are good with the loading since we are replacing 5 ton with 5
ton and no changes to the house that would adversely affect heat load have
occurred. We can't go larger since this is a rooftop installation and 5
tons is maximum that we could put up. It would be cost prohibitive to re-
plumb the entire installation.
I've looked into cost/benefit trades of the higher SEER units and can't
make the transition cost-effective. We currently have a dual system
(central evaporative, central air) system with barometric damper. I just
replaced the evaporative system this year -- that I did myself, I won't /
can't do the central air system myself. I want to keep the evaporative
cooler because we really like the fresh airflow through the house when we
can use the evaporative system. It works well here in AZ through about July
when the monsoon hits and the humidity goes up. After that time, not so
much. It is also nice having a dual system so that when one goes out, there
is at least a temporary backup. Evaporative cooling may not work well in
higher humidity, but it is way better than nothing, so redundancy is not a
bad thing.
--
There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage
Rob Leatham
On Fri, 23 Jul 2010 21:53:07 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On Jul 24, 12:44 am, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "Robatoy" wrote:
>> >What kinda socialist scam are you running down there?
>>
>> -------------------------------
>> One of those government programs to promote improving energy
>> efficiency by getting all those Republicans to dig up their coffee
>> cans full of moldy money and buy and install energy saving stuff.<G>
>>
>> Lew
>
>Gee, a 5 ton AC doesn't sound like the kind of thing that a custodian
>of God's Green Earth should be running.
I bet Al Gore has at least a dozen of them (or the equivalent).
On 7/24/2010 12:50 AM, Mark & Juanita wrote:
> Dan Coby wrote:
>
>> On 7/23/2010 8:47 PM, Mark& Juanita wrote:
>>>
>>> Our air conditioner is on its last legs and will most likely not last
>>> the
>>> summer -- it's 22 years old, so can't complain too much. The proposed
>>> replacement is one of either, 1) 14 SEER American Standard, 2) 14 SEER
>>> Rheem, or 3) 14.5 SEER Carrier. All of these are direct 5 ton
>>> replacements for the existing unit.
>>>
>>
>> I have an American Standard unit. I am not impressed. In six years it
>> has been replaced once under warranty (but I still had to pay labor) and I
>> just had another service to replace 3 pounds of coolant that It has lost
>> in two years.
>
> Thanks for the input. Your experience seems consistent with the
> warranty. The Carrier and Rheem come with 10 year compressor, 10 year parts
> warranties; the American Standard with 10 year compressor, but only 5 year
> parts warranty. American Standard price though is only $124 less than the
> Carrier and a full $852 more than the Rheem. Given that, the American
> Standard doesn't seem competitive.
As a single family residential builder, let me say that Ed gave you the
best advice ... With central air go with installation and service.
Let me say it again: with central air, _installation_ is much more
important than brand! :)
The difference between US brands is basically "fit and finish", as the
parts that make it an air conditioner are pretty much universal
off-the-shelf, with the exact same parts used by all brand manufacturers
in the US.
IOW, forget the brand, go with a high SEER, 2 stage unit if you want the
best efficiency and realized cooling, and make sure that your installer
does a "Manual J" cooling-load calculation for your installation,
preferably software based ... many free programs around if you want to
double check yourself, like the following:
http://3d2f.com/download/41-432-jloads-free-download.shtml
It will cost you more for a properly sized, higher SEER unit 2 stage
compression (about 30%), but I will guarantee you will make it back back
many times over in energy costs over the life of the unit.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
"Dan Coby" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> Where the coolant is leaking is not known. This is both the second
> compressor
> and the second AC guy.
I hope the third guy is better.
The AC in one of my cars stopped working under warranty. Dealer fixed it,
but two weeks later, same problem. Fixed it again, but lasted only four
days. Fixed again but did not even last two miles. I turned around and
went back. I had the dealership owner, service manager, and the tech that
did the repair outside looking at my car. They all said they could not find
the leak. Then, I asked, "did you check the evaporator?" The reply was
"oh, they NEVER leak". You can guess the rest of the story.
On Sun, 25 Jul 2010 18:25:05 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]>
wrote the following:
>
>"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Interesting. Both my salesman and installer were leery of the new
>> Puron systems 8 years ago (due to performance issues, not reliability)
>> so I had the R-22(?) system installed at their suggestion. Yes, I know
>> it will take an entire redo when this one breaks, but by that time, it
>> will be worth it. I used to use R-12 back in the day, installing
>> systems in brand new trucks in Phoenix one summer. Aiyeeeeeeeeeeeee!
>>
>
>
>Did you ever read up in any "trades" magazines as to why the refrigerants
>were mandated to be phased out for the so called "better version"? Talk
>about politics.
No, I was out of it by that time, though I knew it was all leftist
bullshit and politics. Unilateral replacement of R-12 doesn't fix a
problem they think we have.
>When I was in the automotive business years ago our trades
>publication that we subscribed to spelled it all out. Apparently DuPont was
>about to have its Freon patent run out and would no longer have the market
>cornered, so to speak. So they came out with a replacement refrigerant that
>they would have the patent on again. They sold it to our government leaders
>as being better for the environment, the ozone layer. That as it may be, it
>is worse for human contact. If it was not going to be as harmful to the
>ozone layer why do they want it to all be recaptured when working on a
>system rather than let it go free as was done with R-12?
>
>This was the precursor to the global warming fad and now the climate change
>fad.
Right, it was a part of the expanded eco-terrorism which has risen to
accepted (by leftists) political form in the world today. Fukkemall.
--
It is pretty hard to tell what does bring happiness;
poverty and wealth have both failed.
-- Kin Hubbard
On Sat, 24 Jul 2010 18:46:28 -0700, Mark & Juanita
<[email protected]> wrote the following:
>[email protected] wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 24 Jul 2010 17:35:48 -0700, Mark & Juanita
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>Swingman wrote:
>>>
>>>... snip
>>>>
>>>> In a nutshell, a quality installation is what has got you such good luck
>>>> with your Goodman. There is a perception that, being a 'builder brand',
>>>> Goodman units aren't that great ... this is mainly due to the fact that
>>>> Goodman will sell to any subcontractor who walks in off the street, and
>>>> thus there are many, many substandard installs.
>>>>
>>>> Once again, the major difference in central air brand names is the
>>>> installation ...
>>>>
>>>
>... snip
>>>
>>> Only objective thing I've found so far is that Carrier apparently has
>>> had
>>>problems with condenser coils that rust out. These are coils that were
>>>meant to be submerged in condensed water that were rusting out. From what
>>>I can tell, Carrier has since come out with rust-protected coils.
>... snip
>> As for the statement that "the major difference in central air brand
>> names is the installation ..." I'll forcefully argue that - because
>> there are dealers/installers that will do exactly the same install on
>> an expensive top of the line carrier as they will on the cheapest
>> American Standard - and that goes both ways.
>>
>> And I've NEVER seen steel coils in any air conditioner - so "rusting
>> out" is not an issue on the coils.
>>
>> The later aluminum coils do tend to be a lot more fragile than either
>> the older aluminum ones or the even older copper ones.
>
> That comment was based on the following:
><http://www.furnacecompare.com/air-conditioners/carrier/reviews/1/>, "Used a
>reputable builder and HVAC installer 5 years ago on new home installation of
>Carrier Puron system. Almost 5 years to the day, the coolant leaked out due
>to rusting evaporator coil. Unbelievable! A manufactured part that is
>supposed to be wet most of the time rusts through. That, folks, is poor
>design and cutting costs at the manufacturing end, not poor installation. My
>repairman said he has had to replace dozens of these coils in the last few
>years. Carrier is supposedly proud of their new "Rust-proof" coil -- which
>mine should have been in the first place. This explains about 80% of the
>dissatisfied comments I have read about Carrier tonight. If yours is still
>under warranty, insist on having your rusty coil replaced with the rust-
>proof model, otherwise you will certainly be replacing it again in short
>order "
>
> There are are several similar comments on this set of pages that give
>similar experiences.
Interesting. Both my salesman and installer were leery of the new
Puron systems 8 years ago (due to performance issues, not reliability)
so I had the R-22(?) system installed at their suggestion. Yes, I know
it will take an entire redo when this one breaks, but by that time, it
will be worth it. I used to use R-12 back in the day, installing
systems in brand new trucks in Phoenix one summer. Aiyeeeeeeeeeeeee!
--
It is pretty hard to tell what does bring happiness;
poverty and wealth have both failed.
-- Kin Hubbard
On Sat, 24 Jul 2010 01:37:53 -0500, "Dave in Texas" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
><[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Fri, 23 Jul 2010 21:53:07 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
>> <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>On Jul 24, 12:44 am, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> "Robatoy" wrote:
>>>> >What kinda socialist scam are you running down there?
>>>>
>>>> -------------------------------
>>>> One of those government programs to promote improving energy
>>>> efficiency by getting all those Republicans to dig up their coffee
>>>> cans full of moldy money and buy and install energy saving stuff.<G>
>>>>
>>>> Lew
>>>
>>>Gee, a 5 ton AC doesn't sound like the kind of thing that a custodian
>>>of God's Green Earth should be running.
>>
>> I bet Al Gore has at least a dozen of them (or the equivalent).
>
> I'll bet so, too but they're 18 SEER AND solar-powered.
I bet not.
"Dan Coby" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> I have an American Standard unit. I am not impressed. In six years it
> has
> been replaced once under warranty (but I still had to pay labor) and I
> just
> had another service to replace 3 pounds of coolant that It has lost in two
> years.
Where was the coolant lost? That may be the fault of the installer, not the
unit itself. The installer makes the connections and if he does a poor job,
you pay. If it was lost from a bad brazed joint on the coil, it is the
fault of the manufacturer. If he replaced that much, he should have also
found and fixed the leak. If he did not, you got screwed.
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Robatoy" wrote:
>
>>What kinda socialist scam are you running down there?
> -------------------------------
> One of those government programs to promote improving energy efficiency by
> getting all those Republicans to dig up their coffee cans full of moldy
> money and buy and install energy saving stuff.<G>
NEVER happen. There'd be too many freedom-stifling goummint-controlling
strings attached, if not immediately then surely just around the next
Obama/Socialist corner! You just wait!
Dave in the Socialist Czech Republic
"Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Our air conditioner is on its last legs and will most likely not last the
> summer -- it's 22 years old, so can't complain too much. The proposed
> replacement is one of either, 1) 14 SEER American Standard, 2) 14 SEER
> Rheem, or 3) 14.5 SEER Carrier. All of these are direct 5 ton
> replacements
> for the existing unit.
>
> Has anyone recently gone through a replacement or had experiences (good
> or
> bad) with these manufacturers? Looking for data points in multiple
> places,
> and folks on this newsgroup have a diversity of experience with multiple
> things, so am asking for input.
>
> Thanks in advance.
All three are good, reliable brands that have been around for decades. I'd
be more concerned about the installer and what they will do. Given that the
AC is 22 years old, has the house changed? More insulation? New windows?
Should a Manual J be done? Is the furnace going to be replaced at the same
time (assuming that is the setup you have)?
Check all the state rebates and tax credits available and utility company
rebates also. I replaced my boiler with no out of pocked cash with the
rebates, tax credits, state funded 0% financing and the oil savings is
greater than the payments.