Delta vs Steel City Table Saw

"mac davis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 10:54:43 GMT, "George" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>What else to do in this weather?
>
> You snowed in again, George?
> Just think of all that spalting going on under the snow!
>
Nope, remember this?
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/techline/producing_spalted_wood.pdf

OTOH, there's no real degrade going on, either.

Swingman wrote:
> "Frank Boettcher" wrote
>
>> Read it carefully. Do you realize that lean which is rooted in
>> statistical methods can be applied to any process.
>
> IMHO, a private plonk is highly recommended/in order at this point ...
> t'will save you time better spent on those who actually make sense.
>
> And thanks, once again, for a participation based on firsthand
> knowledge and practical experience, instead of conjecture. It's
> appreciated!


Indeed Franks posts are always a "must read".....A bit like hiding in the
back room and hearing the inside skinny. Rod

J. Clarke wrote:
> The Davenport's wrote:
>>>>>> The Delta saw is looking like it will be $999 - no rebates
>>>>> You can get the Delta for 949 +6.50 shipping (yes, 6.50!) here:
>>>>> http://www.tools-plus.com/delta-36-716b.html
>>>>>
>>>>>> The Steel City is looking like it will be $949 - after $100 mail
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> rebate.
>>>>> It's 849.99 (??shipping??) after rebate here:
>>>>> http://www.dynamitetoolco.com/Steel_City_35670_10_Cabinet_Table_Saw_p/stl-35670.htm
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Steel City is a relatively new outfit, it has been getting a lot
>>>> of
>>>> good press; Delta and Powermatic cabinet saws have been the gold
>>>> standard that other saws are compared to for a long time.
>>>>
>>>> The saws you mention are not really cabinet saws, despite
>>>> appearances.
>>> In what way is the Steel City not a "cabinet saw"?
>> The SteelCity saw is a hybrid. One of the distinctive differences
>> between a
>> cabinet saw and a contractors is that the trunions on a contractors
>> saw is
>> hung from the bottom of the table where on the cabinet saw, the
>> trunions are
>> mounted to the cabinet and not connected to the top. SO...the
>> hybrids
>> have a
>> cabinet like the cabinet saws but mount the trunions to the table.
>
> Uh, what leads you to believe that the Steel City 35670 has table
> mounted trunions? Steel City thinks that they are cabinet-mounted.
> Most reviews comment on their being cabinet mounted. The web site
> linked above states specifically that "The precision-machined cast
> iron trunions are mounted to the cabinet". So I repeat my question.
> In what way is it not a "cabinet saw"?
>

Thank you for posting that as I was just thinking about the fact that
the salesman has made such a big deal about it when speaking with him.
Being new to this I didn't really understand why he was making such a
big deal about it. So it seems like a pretty big deal :-)

This is the products main page:
http://www.steelcitytoolworks.com/products_tools.cfm?section=2&category=12&tool=35670

They say this:

"Cabinet Mounted Trunion System:
The precision-machined cast iron trunions are mounted to the cabinet to
ensure perfect blade alignment, increased stability and to eliminate
vibration. "

$900 dollars for a table saw? Geeze, that's a lot.

When I finally sold my Ohio Forge (purchased "damaged" at Home Depot
some twenty-five or thirty year ago (Cracked cast table extension), I
looked around at HD, Sears nd Lowes and found they all were very
similar and all were "lighter" than the old Ohio Forge. I wound up
buying a Sear Close Out / customer return for about $275 as I recall.
I added one of those Link Belts after a few years and use it regularly
on wood and light metals and plastics/composites

They tell me my grandfather used to say "its a poor workman what
blames his tools."

Then Deming: I couldn't believe the first post. How can one get it so
turned around! Deming Tried to teach America but they wouldn't listen
until after his succes in Japan. Now, TQM is used throughout America -
lbeit absent the inspiration

False. Demming taught the Japanese how to do it. He brought
statistical process control, the basis for all aspects of lean
manufacturing, to the Japanese when the US auto manufacturers were not
interested. Prior to his indoctrination the Japanese were known for
cheap junk.

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 01:13:38 GMT, "Lee K" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"Adam" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> The Delta saw is looking like it will be $999 - no rebates
>
>You can get the Delta for 949 +6.50 shipping (yes, 6.50!) here:
>http://www.tools-plus.com/delta-36-716b.html
>
>> The Steel City is looking like it will be $949 - after $100 mail in
>> rebate.
>
>It's 849.99 (??shipping??) after rebate here:
>http://www.dynamitetoolco.com/Steel_City_35670_10_Cabinet_Table_Saw_p/stl-35670.htm
>
>
Steel City is a relatively new outfit, it has been getting a lot of
good press; Delta and Powermatic cabinet saws have been the gold
standard that other saws are compared to for a long time.

The saws you mention are not really cabinet saws, despite appearances.

That dynamite tool site lists a steel city cabinet saw with a 3 hp
motor for for $950. In my opinion the extra hp makes a huge
difference. You would need 220V to connect it, but I do think a "real"
cabinet saw at that price difference should not go overlooked.

On Feb 17, 5:10 pm, "Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "The Davenport's" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:Z%1uj.59
> > cabinet saw and a contractors is that the trunions on a contractors saw is
> > hung from the bottom of the table where on the cabinet saw, the trunions
> are
> > mounted to the cabinet and not connected to the top. SO...the hybrids have
> a
> > cabinet like the cabinet saws but mount the trunions to the table.
>
> That's interesting information to know. It makes me think that if I ever
> have to move a cabinet saw, hopefully it would make it easier to remove the
> table from a cabinet saw to reduce weight as well as overall size.
>
> As far as you know, is there any practical or beneficial reasons to not have
> the trunions attached to the table but instead attached to the cabinet?

The table will remain flatter, since it's not supporting the
entire drive train.

<<snip>>
>> The SteelCity saw is a hybrid. One of the distinctive differences
>> between a
>> cabinet saw and a contractors is that the trunions on a contractors
>> saw is
>> hung from the bottom of the table where on the cabinet saw, the
>> trunions are
>> mounted to the cabinet and not connected to the top. SO...the
>> hybrids
>> have a
>> cabinet like the cabinet saws but mount the trunions to the table.
>
> Uh, what leads you to believe that the Steel City 35670 has table
> mounted trunions? Steel City thinks that they are cabinet-mounted.
> Most reviews comment on their being cabinet mounted. The web site
> linked above states specifically that "The precision-machined cast
> iron trunions are mounted to the cabinet". So I repeat my question.
> In what way is it not a "cabinet saw"?
>
> --
> --
> --John

I stand corrected...the comments that I made were based on the difference
between a cabinet saw and a contractors saw, forgetting to check with the
SteelCity website as to the saw in question.

I will say, however, that other than that the SteelCity ISN'T one, what
makes a hybrid a hybrid was correct. Small point, but a point none the
less.

Still wrong, but...oh well

My bad.

<mental note...check for full info FIRST>>

Mike

"Frank Boettcher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:14:58 -0500, "J. Clarke"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>Like the A6M5 and the Type 91 torpedo? The Japanese did listen to
>>Deming and implemented his methods with great success, but they
>>wouldn't have if they weren't already very quality-conscious.
>

Yeah, a combat aircraft with no armor and no self-sealing fuel tanks. Seems
like a neat way to cut corners. Good range, too.

The Long Lance was a helluva good torpedo. Wasn't built with the precision
and hand fitting that went into our MK XIV. Work of art. Worthless, of
course, but certainly superior in "fit and finish."

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:00:40 -0600, Adam <[email protected]>
wrote:


>This is the products main page:
>http://www.steelcitytoolworks.com/products_tools.cfm?section=2&category=12&tool=35670

What everyone has left out of this discussion, probably assuming that
everyone knows, although your relative newness suggests you might not,
is that Steel City is run by a bunch of old Delta people. Frank
probably knows them all. While that by itself doesn't assure anything
about the product, it at least suggests where the design has its
roots.

One thing I found curious when I went to the link and saw the picture,
is that the motor cover is on the right, as is usual with all the old
right tilt Unisaws. Every left tilt cabinet saw I've seen (Delta's,
Powermatic's, Jet's, etc.) have the motor cover on the left on a left
tilt saw.

The arc on the front of the cabinet is left tilt-like, but the cover
(and the tilt wheel, also on the left, as on a right tilt)) is
throwing me off. At the very least that suggests some departure from
just staid old Delta-ware (not that there was anything wrong with
that). I hope someone can come up with the answer to that.

You do know they're built offshore, right? If that matters. Hard to
avoid, in any event.


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net
http://www.normstools.com

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

The "Steel City" looks good in the picture. But the description says
very little about the "Fence System," one of the most important parts
of any table saw.

"Adam" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> The Delta saw is looking like it will be $999 - no rebates

You can get the Delta for 949 +6.50 shipping (yes, 6.50!) here:
http://www.tools-plus.com/delta-36-716b.html

> The Steel City is looking like it will be $949 - after $100 mail in
> rebate.

It's 849.99 (??shipping??) after rebate here:
http://www.dynamitetoolco.com/Steel_City_35670_10_Cabinet_Table_Saw_p/stl-35670.htm

Unless things have improved in the last year or so, Delta's support
leaves a lot to be desired. Examples include the fine folks who don't
realize they now also sell more than just yellow tools; "its normal to
have that much run out"; and "we don't really care if you buy our
products or not".

Given SC "background", I'd lean toward giving them a try.

Renata



On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 19:03:13 -0600, Adam <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Hello,
>
>I have asked a few questions on here before and have been impressed
>with the wealth of knowledge you all have. I am currently in the
>market for a new table saw (my first actually) and have been shopping
>around. I have narrowed it down to two different saws, a Delta and a
>Steel City.
>
>
>It seems every store I go into that sells Steel City and other brands
>HEAVILY recommends the Steel City. I just want to know what you guys
>think of them and maybe get any pros or cons you know of.
>
>
>The Delta model is: 36-716B
>The Steel City is: 35670
>
>
>Both have the same size motor and I feel the fences are somewhat
>comperable. I just don't know what I am missing...
>
>
>The Delta saw is looking like it will be $999 - no rebates
>The Steel City is looking like it will be $949 - after $100 mail in
>rebate.
>
>
>Both will require mobile bases.
>
>
>Thanks for your time!
>
>
>Adam

>Adam wrote:
>Well it seems we have different goals for what we are looking for...
>I don't think I was asking for judgement of the cost of my purchase...
>did it seem that way?
>
No... it certainly didn't. And there are many more expensive saws out there.
I bought my Delta Unisaw about 9 years ago and paid almost $2,800.00. If
either of the 2 saws you're considering were available back then, I'd not
have purchased the Unisaw. It was the popularity of the Delta Unisaw, General
and Powermatic industrial saws amongst serious woodworking hobbiests like you
and me (and many other people in this forum) that drove the development of
these "little brothers" to the industrial machines. And they perform
wonderfully.

I don't think you're too much worried about drivel like that in poopi's post
(he seems prone to spewing crap). There will always be bottom feeders
slithering in the mud who try to lure others down to their level. Bit of a
shallow gene pool there...wot!

Come back after you've made your purchase and let us know what you decided.

Cheers

--
Message posted via CraftKB.com
http://www.craftkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/woodworking/200802/1

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:42:28 GMT, Tim Mueller
<[email protected]> wrote:

>US-made is always good, but as a practical matter, understand that most
>US manufacturers started moving their casting operations to the Far East
>and South America by 1980, Delta included. And this was not just for
>the lower end of their product lines. In the mid-80's Delta was selling
>industrial tools made for them in South America.

Maybe accurate but doesn't tell the whole story. The units mostly
discussed in this forum, the top of the line Unisaw, Contractor Saw,
14" Band Saw, All Radial Arm Saws, Lathes, and others were entirely
made in America until approximately 2003. Content on each of these
units was in the 95% range including the cast iron.

Invicta (Brazil) produced 12" and up table saws (very low volume, very
good saws) Jointers and Planers and this actually preceeded the mid
eighties. The jointers and Planers were moved to either Taiwan or
China in the late '90s
>
>Faced with re-tooling because (a) your post-war factories are worn out,
>and (b) they don't meet Clean Air and OSHA requirements, what would you
>do? Go to a developing country that doesn't have the regulations, has
>cheaper labor and gives you tax abatements. Duh.

Absolutley none of these statements apply to Delta's situation. It
might interest one to know that the the last cast iron package sent
from the Tupelo factory to China actually cost more from China.
Nothing was worn out, there were no environmental or safety issues,
the closing of the plant was a reaction to a consolidation strategy
that went very wrong and lost a significant amount of market share as
a result. With the lower volume something had to give, and with the
PC people in control of major decisions, they decided to close Tupelo.
The alternative was to partially close Jackson, TN. (where they all
lived and what had been designated tool group headquarters post
consolidation). When it became apparent that it was too little too
late, they (the corporation) put the division up for sale.

I can't speak for others in the industry.
>
>Quality is not geographic; Deming studied the Japanese to understand how
>they did it.

False. Demming taught the Japanese how to do it. He brought
statistical process control, the basis for all aspects of lean
manufacturing, to the Japanese when the US auto manufacturers were not
interested. Prior to his indoctrination the Japanese were known for
cheap junk.



Frank

> Also consider, say, Chevrolet vs. Hyundai: Who had the
>100K warranty first? Not GM. When they re-designed their pickups in
>the late 80's, they gave a 50K warranty. Ours was back for warranty
>repairs and recalls numerous times, and then the warranty on new
>vehicles was back to 36K/36 months. In the end it comes down to
>corporate will. Now that Dewalt owns Delta, my personal jury is out.
>The local Delta distributor admitted that they had high hopes for some
>new and improved products when the ownership changed, but so far all
>they've seen is a massive advertising campaign.


>
>Bill T. Ray wrote:
>> I have a Delta Cabinet Saw, the cheapest cabinet saw they made back
>> then. I bought it new around 1990.

A very good saw, by the way, but only had about a four year run, then
was discontinued for reasons of low volume.

> I am a moderate user. Woodworking
>> is a hobby, not a profession. But, I have never had any problems with
>> it. I like it. When you make an adjustment, it stays adjusted. Mine is
>> made in the U.S. I have come to the conclusion that U.S., European,
>> and Japanese quality far exceeds that of Taiwan, China, and Korea when
>> it comes to tools. I have a couple of Delta tools, drill press and
>> portable planer, that are made in Taiwan. They are not up to the
>> quality of my Delta table saw or lathe made in the U.S. but still
>> quite servicable. I no longer by tools made anyhwere but the U.S.,
>> Western Europe, or Japan. I prefer to buy U.S. made tools when
>> possible. I'm particular about quality. I am a retired
>> engineer/engineering professor.
>>
>> Happy saw dust making.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>
>[snip]
>
>>>
>>> I want to go American, but can not afford more than around $1000 for a TS.
>>>
>>> Adam

"Frank Boettcher" wrote

> Read it carefully. Do you realize that lean which is rooted in
> statistical methods can be applied to any process.

IMHO, a private plonk is highly recommended/in order at this point ...
t'will save you time better spent on those who actually make sense.

And thanks, once again, for a participation based on firsthand knowledge and
practical experience, instead of conjecture. It's appreciated!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/14/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

George wrote:
>
> "Adam" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> The Delta saw is looking like it will be $999 - no rebates
>> The Steel City is looking like it will be $949 - after $100 mail in
>> rebate.
>>
>
> As noted, you have more places to search for pricing.
>
>>
>> Both will require mobile bases.
>>
>
> If you want one. Depends on shop size.
>
> I have a Steel City drillpress, got a good look through their line at
> the distributer, and they all look pretty good. Guess I was impressed
> enough, because I bought the oldest kid a planer and jointer with his
> "grandma" money. He loves 'em.
>
> I like my Mississippi Delta saw, but if in the market, I'd probably buy
> S.C.
>
>>
>> Thanks for your time!
>>
>
> What else to do in this weather?

I'd love to have a Mississippi Delta saw too, but sadly only the TOP of
the line saws are still made here in the good ol' US of A. The Delta I
am comparing with the SC are both made over in China...

I want to go American, but can not afford more than around $1000 for a TS.

Adam

"Adam" wrote

> comperable. I just don't know what I am missing...

Go somewhere you can compare them side by side, even if you have to take a
trip. If you've used a table saw much at all, you probably won't even have
to do any cutting to make a decision.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/14/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Adam" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> The Delta saw is looking like it will be $999 - no rebates
> The Steel City is looking like it will be $949 - after $100 mail in
> rebate.
>

As noted, you have more places to search for pricing.

>
> Both will require mobile bases.
>

If you want one. Depends on shop size.

I have a Steel City drillpress, got a good look through their line at the
distributer, and they all look pretty good. Guess I was impressed enough,
because I bought the oldest kid a planer and jointer with his "grandma"
money. He loves 'em.

I like my Mississippi Delta saw, but if in the market, I'd probably buy S.C.

>
> Thanks for your time!
>

What else to do in this weather?

"Hoosierpopi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> $900 dollars for a table saw? Geeze, that's a lot.
>
> When I finally sold my Ohio Forge (purchased "damaged" at Home Depot
> some twenty-five or thirty year ago (Cracked cast table extension), I
> looked around at HD, Sears nd Lowes and found they all were very
> similar and all were "lighter" than the old Ohio Forge. I wound up
> buying a Sear Close Out / customer return for about $275 as I recall.
> I added one of those Link Belts after a few years and use it regularly
> on wood and light metals and plastics/composites
>
> They tell me my grandfather used to say "its a poor workman what
> blames his tools."


<<<lots of snippage about Deming>>>

$900 is a lot? Let's see...you bought your saw 25ish years ago...for $275
which is about $620usd in 2007 dollars. In the grand scheme of things, not a
whole lot of difference.

Oh...and $900 today was only $400 in 1982.

Again, not a lot of difference.

Mike

>>>> The Delta saw is looking like it will be $999 - no rebates
>>>
>>> You can get the Delta for 949 +6.50 shipping (yes, 6.50!) here:
>>> http://www.tools-plus.com/delta-36-716b.html
>>>
>>>> The Steel City is looking like it will be $949 - after $100 mail
>>>> in
>>>> rebate.
>>>
>>> It's 849.99 (??shipping??) after rebate here:
>>> http://www.dynamitetoolco.com/Steel_City_35670_10_Cabinet_Table_Saw_p/stl-35670.htm
>>>
>>>
>> Steel City is a relatively new outfit, it has been getting a lot of
>> good press; Delta and Powermatic cabinet saws have been the gold
>> standard that other saws are compared to for a long time.
>>
>> The saws you mention are not really cabinet saws, despite
>> appearances.
>
> In what way is the Steel City not a "cabinet saw"?

The SteelCity saw is a hybrid. One of the distinctive differences between a
cabinet saw and a contractors is that the trunions on a contractors saw is
hung from the bottom of the table where on the cabinet saw, the trunions are
mounted to the cabinet and not connected to the top. SO...the hybrids have a
cabinet like the cabinet saws but mount the trunions to the table.

Mike

"The Davenport's" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:Z%1uj.59
> cabinet saw and a contractors is that the trunions on a contractors saw is
> hung from the bottom of the table where on the cabinet saw, the trunions
are
> mounted to the cabinet and not connected to the top. SO...the hybrids have
a
> cabinet like the cabinet saws but mount the trunions to the table.

That's interesting information to know. It makes me think that if I ever
have to move a cabinet saw, hopefully it would make it easier to remove the
table from a cabinet saw to reduce weight as well as overall size.

As far as you know, is there any practical or beneficial reasons to not have
the trunions attached to the table but instead attached to the cabinet?

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 19:33:41 -0600, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Frank Boettcher" wrote
>
>> Read it carefully. Do you realize that lean which is rooted in
>> statistical methods can be applied to any process.
>
>IMHO, a private plonk is highly recommended/in order at this point ...
>t'will save you time better spent on those who actually make sense.
>
Sage advice, as usual.

>And thanks, once again, for a participation based on firsthand knowledge and
>practical experience, instead of conjecture. It's appreciated!

Happy to do so. Thanks for the comment.

Frank

Hoosierpopi wrote:
> $900 dollars for a table saw? Geeze, that's a lot.
>
> When I finally sold my Ohio Forge (purchased "damaged" at Home Depot
> some twenty-five or thirty year ago (Cracked cast table extension), I
> looked around at HD, Sears nd Lowes and found they all were very
> similar and all were "lighter" than the old Ohio Forge. I wound up
> buying a Sear Close Out / customer return for about $275 as I recall.
> I added one of those Link Belts after a few years and use it regularly
> on wood and light metals and plastics/composites
>
> They tell me my grandfather used to say "its a poor workman what
> blames his tools."
>
> Then Deming: I couldn't believe the first post. How can one get it so
> turned around! Deming Tried to teach America but they wouldn't listen
> until after his succes in Japan. Now, TQM is used throughout America -
> lbeit absent the inspiration
>
> False. Demming taught the Japanese how to do it. He brought
> statistical process control, the basis for all aspects of lean
> manufacturing, to the Japanese when the US auto manufacturers were not
> interested. Prior to his indoctrination the Japanese were known for
> cheap junk.
>

Well it seems we have different goals for what we are looking for...

I don't think I was asking for judgement of the cost of my purchase...
did it seem that way?

There are much more expensive table saws out there too - so just because
you can get some POS on closeout, it doesn't mean I have to.

Note: I am not saying Craftsman are POS - just the fact that it was a
customer return / being closed out.

I have a Delta Cabinet Saw, the cheapest cabinet saw they made back
then. I bought it new around 1990. I am a moderate user. Woodworking
is a hobby, not a profession. But, I have never had any problems with
it. I like it. When you make an adjustment, it stays adjusted. Mine is
made in the U.S. I have come to the conclusion that U.S., European,
and Japanese quality far exceeds that of Taiwan, China, and Korea when
it comes to tools. I have a couple of Delta tools, drill press and
portable planer, that are made in Taiwan. They are not up to the
quality of my Delta table saw or lathe made in the U.S. but still
quite servicable. I no longer by tools made anyhwere but the U.S.,
Western Europe, or Japan. I prefer to buy U.S. made tools when
possible. I'm particular about quality. I am a retired
engineer/engineering professor.

Happy saw dust making.

Bill

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 09:37:46 -0600, Adam <[email protected]>
wrote:

>George wrote:
>>
>> "Adam" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>> The Delta saw is looking like it will be $999 - no rebates
>>> The Steel City is looking like it will be $949 - after $100 mail in
>>> rebate.
>>>
>>
>> As noted, you have more places to search for pricing.
>>
>>>
>>> Both will require mobile bases.
>>>
>>
>> If you want one. Depends on shop size.
>>
>> I have a Steel City drillpress, got a good look through their line at
>> the distributer, and they all look pretty good. Guess I was impressed
>> enough, because I bought the oldest kid a planer and jointer with his
>> "grandma" money. He loves 'em.
>>
>> I like my Mississippi Delta saw, but if in the market, I'd probably buy
>> S.C.
>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for your time!
>>>
>>
>> What else to do in this weather?
>
>I'd love to have a Mississippi Delta saw too, but sadly only the TOP of
>the line saws are still made here in the good ol' US of A. The Delta I
>am comparing with the SC are both made over in China...
>
>I want to go American, but can not afford more than around $1000 for a TS.
>
>Adam

mac davis wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 10:54:43 GMT, "George" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>> What else to do in this weather?
>
> You snowed in again, George?
> Just think of all that spalting going on under the snow!
>
> (I won't mention that it's 60f here this morning)
> damn, did I say that out loud?
>
>
> mac
>
> Please remove splinters before emailing

Pfft!. 7" of snow on Friday, -29 on
Friday nite, and freezing rain forecast
for tonite.

The Gatineaus, Quebec. Where men are men
and even the cows are a bit nervous. The
sheep are in therapy.

--

Tanus

www.home.mycybernet.net/~waugh/shop/

Jim Weisgram wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 01:13:38 GMT, "Lee K" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> "Adam" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> The Delta saw is looking like it will be $999 - no rebates
>>
>> You can get the Delta for 949 +6.50 shipping (yes, 6.50!) here:
>> http://www.tools-plus.com/delta-36-716b.html
>>
>>> The Steel City is looking like it will be $949 - after $100 mail
>>> in
>>> rebate.
>>
>> It's 849.99 (??shipping??) after rebate here:
>> http://www.dynamitetoolco.com/Steel_City_35670_10_Cabinet_Table_Saw_p/stl-35670.htm
>>
>>
> Steel City is a relatively new outfit, it has been getting a lot of
> good press; Delta and Powermatic cabinet saws have been the gold
> standard that other saws are compared to for a long time.
>
> The saws you mention are not really cabinet saws, despite
> appearances.

In what way is the Steel City not a "cabinet saw"?

> That dynamite tool site lists a steel city cabinet saw with a 3 hp
> motor for for $950. In my opinion the extra hp makes a huge
> difference. You would need 220V to connect it, but I do think a
> "real"
> cabinet saw at that price difference should not go overlooked.

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The Davenport's wrote:
>>>>> The Delta saw is looking like it will be $999 - no rebates
>>>>
>>>> You can get the Delta for 949 +6.50 shipping (yes, 6.50!) here:
>>>> http://www.tools-plus.com/delta-36-716b.html
>>>>
>>>>> The Steel City is looking like it will be $949 - after $100 mail
>>>>> in
>>>>> rebate.
>>>>
>>>> It's 849.99 (??shipping??) after rebate here:
>>>> http://www.dynamitetoolco.com/Steel_City_35670_10_Cabinet_Table_Saw_p/stl-35670.htm
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Steel City is a relatively new outfit, it has been getting a lot
>>> of
>>> good press; Delta and Powermatic cabinet saws have been the gold
>>> standard that other saws are compared to for a long time.
>>>
>>> The saws you mention are not really cabinet saws, despite
>>> appearances.
>>
>> In what way is the Steel City not a "cabinet saw"?
>
> The SteelCity saw is a hybrid. One of the distinctive differences
> between a
> cabinet saw and a contractors is that the trunions on a contractors
> saw is
> hung from the bottom of the table where on the cabinet saw, the
> trunions are
> mounted to the cabinet and not connected to the top. SO...the
> hybrids
> have a
> cabinet like the cabinet saws but mount the trunions to the table.

Uh, what leads you to believe that the Steel City 35670 has table
mounted trunions? Steel City thinks that they are cabinet-mounted.
Most reviews comment on their being cabinet mounted. The web site
linked above states specifically that "The precision-machined cast
iron trunions are mounted to the cabinet". So I repeat my question.
In what way is it not a "cabinet saw"?

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--
--John
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The Davenport's wrote:
> <<snip>>
>>> The SteelCity saw is a hybrid. One of the distinctive differences
>>> between a
>>> cabinet saw and a contractors is that the trunions on a
>>> contractors
>>> saw is
>>> hung from the bottom of the table where on the cabinet saw, the
>>> trunions are
>>> mounted to the cabinet and not connected to the top. SO...the
>>> hybrids
>>> have a
>>> cabinet like the cabinet saws but mount the trunions to the table.
>>
>> Uh, what leads you to believe that the Steel City 35670 has table
>> mounted trunions? Steel City thinks that they are cabinet-mounted.
>> Most reviews comment on their being cabinet mounted. The web site
>> linked above states specifically that "The precision-machined cast
>> iron trunions are mounted to the cabinet". So I repeat my
>> question.
>> In what way is it not a "cabinet saw"?
>>
>> --
>> --
>> --John
>
> I stand corrected...the comments that I made were based on the
> difference between a cabinet saw and a contractors saw, forgetting
> to
> check with the SteelCity website as to the saw in question.
>
> I will say, however, that other than that the SteelCity ISN'T one,
> what makes a hybrid a hybrid was correct. Small point, but a point
> none the less.
>
> Still wrong, but...oh well
>
> My bad.
>
> <mental note...check for full info FIRST>>

Just so you know, the Sears 22124 is a rebadged Steel City and also
has cabinet-mounted trunions. Their OR35505 is based on the same
mechanism--it's kind of a hybrid saw in reverse--a cabinet saw that
looks like a contractor's saw.


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--John
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Frank Boettcher wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:00:40 -0600, Adam <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>> The Davenport's wrote:
>>>>>>>> The Delta saw is looking like it will be $999 - no rebates
>>>>>>> You can get the Delta for 949 +6.50 shipping (yes, 6.50!)
>>>>>>> here:
>>>>>>> http://www.tools-plus.com/delta-36-716b.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The Steel City is looking like it will be $949 - after $100
>>>>>>>> mail in
>>>>>>>> rebate.
>>>>>>> It's 849.99 (??shipping??) after rebate here:
>>>>>>> http://www.dynamitetoolco.com/Steel_City_35670_10_Cabinet_Table_Saw_p/stl-35670.htm
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steel City is a relatively new outfit, it has been getting a
>>>>>> lot
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> good press; Delta and Powermatic cabinet saws have been the
>>>>>> gold
>>>>>> standard that other saws are compared to for a long time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The saws you mention are not really cabinet saws, despite
>>>>>> appearances.
>>>>> In what way is the Steel City not a "cabinet saw"?
>>>> The SteelCity saw is a hybrid. One of the distinctive differences
>>>> between a
>>>> cabinet saw and a contractors is that the trunions on a
>>>> contractors
>>>> saw is
>>>> hung from the bottom of the table where on the cabinet saw, the
>>>> trunions are
>>>> mounted to the cabinet and not connected to the top. SO...the
>>>> hybrids
>>>> have a
>>>> cabinet like the cabinet saws but mount the trunions to the
>>>> table.
>>>
>>> Uh, what leads you to believe that the Steel City 35670 has table
>>> mounted trunions? Steel City thinks that they are
>>> cabinet-mounted.
>>> Most reviews comment on their being cabinet mounted. The web site
>>> linked above states specifically that "The precision-machined cast
>>> iron trunions are mounted to the cabinet". So I repeat my
>>> question.
>>> In what way is it not a "cabinet saw"?
>>>
>>
>> Thank you for posting that as I was just thinking about the fact
>> that
>> the salesman has made such a big deal about it when speaking with
>> him. Being new to this I didn't really understand why he was making
>> such a big deal about it. So it seems like a pretty big deal :-)
>>
>> This is the products main page:
>> http://www.steelcitytoolworks.com/products_tools.cfm?section=2&category=12&tool=35670
>>
>
>> They say this:
>>
>> "Cabinet Mounted Trunion System:
>> The precision-machined cast iron trunions are mounted to the
>> cabinet
>> to ensure perfect blade alignment, increased stability and to
>> eliminate vibration. "
>
>
> For the sake of clarity, what has been labeled a hybrid cabinet saw
> in
> the past is a saw with trunnion brackets mounted to the bottom of
> the
> table and a tie bar trunnion carriage assembly. Essentially a
> contractor saw that has had the motor mounting relocated, maybe with
> the addition of a half HP, and an enclosed cabinet added. Dewalt
> also
> produces one that has a 3/4" cabinet, I believe.
>
> The next step up was a cabinet saw that had wide trunnion brackets
> mounted at the four corners of the top plate of the cabinet with a
> very heavy, all cast iron trunnion yoke assembly. Top of the line
> Unisaw, PM66 (slightly different design here), General (Canadian)
> and
> far east imports Jet, Griz, and some other knockoffs.
>
> The saw you depicted is a hybrid of a hybrid. Got the cabinet
> mounted
> trunnion brackets, but the trunnion carriage is a contractor tie bar
> style.
>
> I would agree with the comments about increased stability and
> lessoning of vibration, however, the "perfect" blade alignment
> really
> depends on how well it is manufactured. Fact is that all saws can
> be
> adjusted to "perfect" at 90, but the differential at 45 then
> becomes
> the variable. It is slightly more difficult for the manufacturer to
> insure a limited differential with a cabinet mounted system. With
> the
> table mounted system, the table is machined and ground so the plane
> of
> the top compared to the plane of the mounting bosses has a capable
> range of a few thou. With a cabinet mounted system, the top plate
> of
> a cabinet is subject to the capable range of blanking, forming, and
> welding sheet metals, so that plane difference may be .020".
> Distances and projected dimensions come into play. If the
> manufacturer is sloppy with their sheet metal work, that 45
> dimension
> is not going to be so hot.
>
> The owner can always shim to "perfection" if inclined to do so, the
> manufacturer will not be able to take the time on an assembly line.

One of the other features on that particular model is "Exterior
Adjustment for 45° and 90° Blade Stops:
Provides easy and accurate settings for the 45° and 90° positive
stops."

>
> Above for information purposes only, I'll not comment on your
> choices,
> have not seen or used either of them. I know all the principles
> involved with Steel City, they are all ex-Delta and good product
> people. I know that they have made an effort to treat their
> distributors equitably so it does not surprise me that the dealers
> reccommend their product. But as to the product itself, you should
> do
> the necessary due diligence to compare.
>
> Frank

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Frank Boettcher wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:42:28 GMT, Tim Mueller
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> US-made is always good, but as a practical matter, understand that
>> most US manufacturers started moving their casting operations to
>> the
>> Far East and South America by 1980, Delta included. And this was
>> not just for the lower end of their product lines. In the mid-80's
>> Delta was selling industrial tools made for them in South America.
>
> Maybe accurate but doesn't tell the whole story. The units mostly
> discussed in this forum, the top of the line Unisaw, Contractor Saw,
> 14" Band Saw, All Radial Arm Saws, Lathes, and others were entirely
> made in America until approximately 2003. Content on each of these
> units was in the 95% range including the cast iron.
>
> Invicta (Brazil) produced 12" and up table saws (very low volume,
> very
> good saws) Jointers and Planers and this actually preceeded the mid
> eighties. The jointers and Planers were moved to either Taiwan or
> China in the late '90s
>>
>> Faced with re-tooling because (a) your post-war factories are worn
>> out, and (b) they don't meet Clean Air and OSHA requirements, what
>> would you do? Go to a developing country that doesn't have the
>> regulations, has cheaper labor and gives you tax abatements. Duh.
>
> Absolutley none of these statements apply to Delta's situation. It
> might interest one to know that the the last cast iron package sent
> from the Tupelo factory to China actually cost more from China.
> Nothing was worn out, there were no environmental or safety issues,
> the closing of the plant was a reaction to a consolidation strategy
> that went very wrong and lost a significant amount of market share
> as
> a result. With the lower volume something had to give, and with the
> PC people in control of major decisions, they decided to close
> Tupelo.
> The alternative was to partially close Jackson, TN. (where they all
> lived and what had been designated tool group headquarters post
> consolidation). When it became apparent that it was too little too
> late, they (the corporation) put the division up for sale.
>
> I can't speak for others in the industry.
>>
>> Quality is not geographic; Deming studied the Japanese to
>> understand
>> how they did it.
>
> False. Demming taught the Japanese how to do it. He brought
> statistical process control, the basis for all aspects of lean
> manufacturing, to the Japanese when the US auto manufacturers were
> not
> interested. Prior to his indoctrination the Japanese were known for
> cheap junk.

Like the A6M5 and the Type 91 torpedo? The Japanese did listen to
Deming and implemented his methods with great success, but they
wouldn't have if they weren't already very quality-conscious. The
hardware they were making during WWII was already superb. They just
couldn't make enough of it.

> Frank
>
>> Also consider, say, Chevrolet vs. Hyundai: Who had the
>> 100K warranty first? Not GM. When they re-designed their pickups
>> in
>> the late 80's, they gave a 50K warranty. Ours was back for
>> warranty
>> repairs and recalls numerous times, and then the warranty on new
>> vehicles was back to 36K/36 months. In the end it comes down to
>> corporate will. Now that Dewalt owns Delta, my personal jury is
>> out.
>> The local Delta distributor admitted that they had high hopes for
>> some new and improved products when the ownership changed, but so
>> far all they've seen is a massive advertising campaign.
>
>
>>
>> Bill T. Ray wrote:
>>> I have a Delta Cabinet Saw, the cheapest cabinet saw they made
>>> back
>>> then. I bought it new around 1990.
>
> A very good saw, by the way, but only had about a four year run,
> then
> was discontinued for reasons of low volume.
>
>> I am a moderate user. Woodworking
>>> is a hobby, not a profession. But, I have never had any problems
>>> with it. I like it. When you make an adjustment, it stays
>>> adjusted.
>>> Mine is made in the U.S. I have come to the conclusion that U.S.,
>>> European, and Japanese quality far exceeds that of Taiwan, China,
>>> and Korea when it comes to tools. I have a couple of Delta tools,
>>> drill press and portable planer, that are made in Taiwan. They are
>>> not up to the quality of my Delta table saw or lathe made in the
>>> U.S. but still quite servicable. I no longer by tools made
>>> anyhwere
>>> but the U.S., Western Europe, or Japan. I prefer to buy U.S. made
>>> tools when possible. I'm particular about quality. I am a retired
>>> engineer/engineering professor.
>>>
>>> Happy saw dust making.
>>>
>>> Bill
>>>
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>>>
>>>> I want to go American, but can not afford more than around $1000
>>>> for a TS.
>>>>
>>>> Adam

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Frank Boettcher wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 09:36:18 -0500, "J. Clarke"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> <snipped a bunch to address only the last comment>
>
>>>
>>> The owner can always shim to "perfection" if inclined to do so,
>>> the
>>> manufacturer will not be able to take the time on an assembly
>>> line.
>>
>> One of the other features on that particular model is "Exterior
>> Adjustment for 45° and 90° Blade Stops:
>> Provides easy and accurate settings for the 45° and 90° positive
>> stops."
>>
> Has nothing to do with 90 or 45 degree blade alignment to the slot
> which was the claim in the ad and was what I was addressing with my
> post.

Look again.

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--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
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Phisherman wrote:
> The "Steel City" looks good in the picture. But the description
> says
> very little about the "Fence System," one of the most important
> parts
> of any table saw.

It's a Beisemeyer Commercial Fence.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Frank Boettcher wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:15:46 -0500, "J. Clarke"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Frank Boettcher wrote:
>>> On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 09:36:18 -0500, "J. Clarke"
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>> <snipped a bunch to address only the last comment>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The owner can always shim to "perfection" if inclined to do so,
>>>>> the
>>>>> manufacturer will not be able to take the time on an assembly
>>>>> line.
>>>>
>>>> One of the other features on that particular model is "Exterior
>>>> Adjustment for 45° and 90° Blade Stops:
>>>> Provides easy and accurate settings for the 45° and 90° positive
>>>> stops."
>>>>
>>> >>
>> Look again.
>>
>> --
> Look at what. The portion of the Steel City web ad that the OP
> referred to had to do with "perfect blade alignment" as a result of
> "cabinet mounted trunions" That is what I was referring to and that
> has nothing to do with blade stops. That fact that it has exterior
> adjustable stops is nice, but not unique.
>
Then would you be kind enough to explain what you _did_ mean by "Has
nothing to do with 90 or 45 degree blade alignment to the slot which
was the claim in the ad and was what I was addressing with my post."


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--
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Frank Boettcher wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:14:58 -0500, "J. Clarke"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> False. Demming taught the Japanese how to do it. He brought
>>> statistical process control, the basis for all aspects of lean
>>> manufacturing, to the Japanese when the US auto manufacturers were
>>> not
>>> interested. Prior to his indoctrination the Japanese were known
>>> for
>>> cheap junk.
>>
>> Like the A6M5 and the Type 91 torpedo? The Japanese did listen to
>> Deming and implemented his methods with great success, but they
>> wouldn't have if they weren't already very quality-conscious.
>
> Your opinion? Or is there some statistical basis for your statement

Google "A6M5" and "Type 91 Torpedo" and get back to me. Or read _any_
book about air operations in the Pacific in WWII, or _any_ account of
the attack on Pearl Harbor.

>
>> The
>> hardware they were making during WWII was already superb. They
>> just
>> couldn't make enough of it.
>>
>
> While I have no idea if that statement is true what has it got to do
> with the deplorable state of Japanese manufacturing after the war?

There's a difference between what one knows _how_ to do and what one
_can_ do working with improvised tools in the midst of burned-out
rubble that used to be a factory.

> My statement simply corrected a comment that said that Deming
> studied
> the Japanese to determine how to manufacture.

If you stopped there you would have been fine. It is a matter of
record that the Japanese did study his methods and the Gilbreths' and
everybody else they could get to talk to them.

Where you went astray was in suggesting that prior to Deming the
Japanese were known for cheap junk. That would be a surprise to every
pilot who got the finest fighter in the US Navy shot out from under
him by one of those pieces of junk, to every Brit who got his Spitfire
shot out from under him by one of those pieces of junk, to every
sailor whose ship was sunk by one of those pieces of junk, to the
planners who arranged the defenses around Pearl Harbor on the basis
that one of those pieces of junk could not possibly exist . . .


> He did not, he taught
> them. He taught them to manufacture and distribute mass produced
> products for the global markets, something they had failed miserably
> at prior to his intervention.

He taught them to _distribute_? Sorry, Deming was a QC guy, not a
marketing guy. They learned that somewhere else.

--
--
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Frank Boettcher wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 16:37:44 -0500, "J. Clarke"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Frank Boettcher wrote:
>>> On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:14:58 -0500, "J. Clarke"
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> False. Demming taught the Japanese how to do it. He brought
>>>>> statistical process control, the basis for all aspects of lean
>>>>> manufacturing, to the Japanese when the US auto manufacturers
>>>>> were
>>>>> not
>>>>> interested. Prior to his indoctrination the Japanese were known
>>>>> for
>>>>> cheap junk.
>>>>
>>>> Like the A6M5 and the Type 91 torpedo? The Japanese did listen
>>>> to
>>>> Deming and implemented his methods with great success, but they
>>>> wouldn't have if they weren't already very quality-conscious.
>>>
>>> Your opinion? Or is there some statistical basis for your
>>> statement
>>
>> Google "A6M5" and "Type 91 Torpedo" and get back to me. Or read
>> _any_ book about air operations in the Pacific in WWII, or _any_
>> account of the attack on Pearl Harbor.
>>
>>>
>>>> The
>>>> hardware they were making during WWII was already superb. They
>>>> just
>>>> couldn't make enough of it.
>>>>
>>>
>>> While I have no idea if that statement is true what has it got to
>>> do
>>> with the deplorable state of Japanese manufacturing after the war?
>>
>> There's a difference between what one knows _how_ to do and what
>> one
>> _can_ do working with improvised tools in the midst of burned-out
>> rubble that used to be a factory.
>>
>>> My statement simply corrected a comment that said that Deming
>>> studied
>>> the Japanese to determine how to manufacture.
>>
>> If you stopped there you would have been fine. It is a matter of
>> record that the Japanese did study his methods and the Gilbreths'
>> and
>> everybody else they could get to talk to them.
>>
>> Where you went astray was in suggesting that prior to Deming the
>> Japanese were known for cheap junk. That would be a surprise to
>> every pilot who got the finest fighter in the US Navy shot out from
>> under him by one of those pieces of junk, to every Brit who got his
>> Spitfire shot out from under him by one of those pieces of junk, to
>> every sailor whose ship was sunk by one of those pieces of junk, to
>> the planners who arranged the defenses around Pearl Harbor on the
>> basis that one of those pieces of junk could not possibly exist .
>> .
>> .
>>
>>
>>> He did not, he taught
>>> them. He taught them to manufacture and distribute mass produced
>>> products for the global markets, something they had failed
>>> miserably
>>> at prior to his intervention.
>>
>> He taught them to _distribute_? Sorry, Deming was a QC guy, not a
>> marketing guy. They learned that somewhere else.
>
> Read it carefully. Do you realize that lean which is rooted in
> statistical methods can be applied to any process.

So you're saying that the Japanese in the 1950s were practicing "lean
marketing" and succeeded because of it? While I might buy that for
"you meet the nicest people on a Honda" (which they screwed up by
never really developing a "Honda culture" analogous to the "Harley
culture"), "Corolloa, the new one from
Toyota" when nobody had ever seen the _old_ one from Toyota and the
jingle was accompanied by a black and white still photo of the car was
certainly _lean_ but it was also kind of pathetic.

By the way, this notion of "lean" is a relatively new one.

>> --
> W. Edwards Deming
> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Jump to: navigation, search
> W. Edwards Deming
>
> Born October 14, 1900(1900-10-14)
> Sioux City, Iowa, USA
> Died December 20, 1993 (aged 93)
> Washington DC, USA
> Occupation Statistician
>
> William Edwards Deming (October 14, 1900-December 20, 1993) was an
> American statistician, college professor, author, lecturer, and
> consultant. Deming is widely credited with improving production in
> the
> United States during World War II, although he is perhaps best known
> for his work in Japan. There, from 1950 onward he taught top
> management how to improve design (and thus service), product
> quality,
> testing and sales (the last through global markets)[1] through
> various
> methods, including the application of statistical methods such as
> analysis of variance (ANOVA) and hypothesis testing.

Wikipedia articles are no more authoritative than are posts on this
newsgroup. If you did not know this then you need to learn it.
Anybody can edit a wikipedia article. Use one as a reference and if
someone really wants to make you look foolish it will be changed the
next time you look at it. If you turn in a paper for a university
course and cite wikipedia as your primary source then you will almose
certainly get marked down for it--some schools do not allow it to be
cited at all.

In any case, nobody has contested the contention that Deming showed
the Japanese how to improve their quality, so your continuing to jump
up and down and say "did so, did so" is pointless.

What is at issue is the baseline from which that quality was improved.
And that baseline was far, _far_ higher than you seem to think it was.

I'd like to see a _reliable_ source for Deming having marketing
expertise.

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--John
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Rod & Betty Jo wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>> "Frank Boettcher" wrote
>>
>>> Read it carefully. Do you realize that lean which is rooted in
>>> statistical methods can be applied to any process.
>>
>> IMHO, a private plonk is highly recommended/in order at this point
>> ... t'will save you time better spent on those who actually make
>> sense.
>>
>> And thanks, once again, for a participation based on firsthand
>> knowledge and practical experience, instead of conjecture. It's
>> appreciated!
>
>
> Indeed Franks posts are always a "must read".....A bit like hiding
> in the back room and hearing the inside skinny. Rod

Anybody who pontificates about how the Japanese were only capable of
producing "junk" prior to the intervention of Deming simply does _not_
know enough for his opinion to be worth listening to. I'm sorry, but
that's the way of it. You can go on worshipping this person if you
want to, but study some history and you'll find out just how wrong he
is.

--
--
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to email, dial "usenet" and validate
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J. Clarke wrote:
> Anybody who pontificates about how the Japanese were only capable of
> producing "junk" prior to the intervention of Deming simply does _not_
> know enough for his opinion to be worth listening to. I'm sorry, but
> that's the way of it. You can go on worshipping this person if you
> want to, but study some history and you'll find out just how wrong he
> is.

True dat. It was the Chinese that produced junks. The Japanese were
better known for their tub boats, or taraibune, which are made from
cedar and bamboo.
<http://www.douglasbrooksboatbuilding.com/taraibune.html>

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 16:37:44 -0500, "J. Clarke"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Frank Boettcher wrote:
>> On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:14:58 -0500, "J. Clarke"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> False. Demming taught the Japanese how to do it. He brought
>>>> statistical process control, the basis for all aspects of lean
>>>> manufacturing, to the Japanese when the US auto manufacturers were
>>>> not
>>>> interested. Prior to his indoctrination the Japanese were known
>>>> for
>>>> cheap junk.
>>>
>>> Like the A6M5 and the Type 91 torpedo? The Japanese did listen to
>>> Deming and implemented his methods with great success, but they
>>> wouldn't have if they weren't already very quality-conscious.
>>
>> Your opinion? Or is there some statistical basis for your statement
>
>Google "A6M5" and "Type 91 Torpedo" and get back to me. Or read _any_
>book about air operations in the Pacific in WWII, or _any_ account of
>the attack on Pearl Harbor.
>
>>
>>> The
>>> hardware they were making during WWII was already superb. They
>>> just
>>> couldn't make enough of it.
>>>
>>
>> While I have no idea if that statement is true what has it got to do
>> with the deplorable state of Japanese manufacturing after the war?
>
>There's a difference between what one knows _how_ to do and what one
>_can_ do working with improvised tools in the midst of burned-out
>rubble that used to be a factory.
>
>> My statement simply corrected a comment that said that Deming
>> studied
>> the Japanese to determine how to manufacture.
>
>If you stopped there you would have been fine. It is a matter of
>record that the Japanese did study his methods and the Gilbreths' and
>everybody else they could get to talk to them.
>
>Where you went astray was in suggesting that prior to Deming the
>Japanese were known for cheap junk. That would be a surprise to every
>pilot who got the finest fighter in the US Navy shot out from under
>him by one of those pieces of junk, to every Brit who got his Spitfire
>shot out from under him by one of those pieces of junk, to every
>sailor whose ship was sunk by one of those pieces of junk, to the
>planners who arranged the defenses around Pearl Harbor on the basis
>that one of those pieces of junk could not possibly exist . . .
>
>
>> He did not, he taught
>> them. He taught them to manufacture and distribute mass produced
>> products for the global markets, something they had failed miserably
>> at prior to his intervention.
>
>He taught them to _distribute_? Sorry, Deming was a QC guy, not a
>marketing guy. They learned that somewhere else.

Read it carefully. Do you realize that lean which is rooted in
statistical methods can be applied to any process.
>
>--
W. Edwards Deming
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
W. Edwards Deming

Born October 14, 1900(1900-10-14)
Sioux City, Iowa, USA
Died December 20, 1993 (aged 93)
Washington DC, USA
Occupation Statistician

William Edwards Deming (October 14, 1900–December 20, 1993) was an
American statistician, college professor, author, lecturer, and
consultant. Deming is widely credited with improving production in the
United States during World War II, although he is perhaps best known
for his work in Japan. There, from 1950 onward he taught top
management how to improve design (and thus service), product quality,
testing and sales (the last through global markets)[1] through various
methods, including the application of statistical methods such as
analysis of variance (ANOVA) and hypothesis testing.

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:00:40 -0600, Adam <[email protected]>
wrote:

>J. Clarke wrote:
>> The Davenport's wrote:
>>>>>>> The Delta saw is looking like it will be $999 - no rebates
>>>>>> You can get the Delta for 949 +6.50 shipping (yes, 6.50!) here:
>>>>>> http://www.tools-plus.com/delta-36-716b.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Steel City is looking like it will be $949 - after $100 mail
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> rebate.
>>>>>> It's 849.99 (??shipping??) after rebate here:
>>>>>> http://www.dynamitetoolco.com/Steel_City_35670_10_Cabinet_Table_Saw_p/stl-35670.htm
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Steel City is a relatively new outfit, it has been getting a lot
>>>>> of
>>>>> good press; Delta and Powermatic cabinet saws have been the gold
>>>>> standard that other saws are compared to for a long time.
>>>>>
>>>>> The saws you mention are not really cabinet saws, despite
>>>>> appearances.
>>>> In what way is the Steel City not a "cabinet saw"?
>>> The SteelCity saw is a hybrid. One of the distinctive differences
>>> between a
>>> cabinet saw and a contractors is that the trunions on a contractors
>>> saw is
>>> hung from the bottom of the table where on the cabinet saw, the
>>> trunions are
>>> mounted to the cabinet and not connected to the top. SO...the
>>> hybrids
>>> have a
>>> cabinet like the cabinet saws but mount the trunions to the table.
>>
>> Uh, what leads you to believe that the Steel City 35670 has table
>> mounted trunions? Steel City thinks that they are cabinet-mounted.
>> Most reviews comment on their being cabinet mounted. The web site
>> linked above states specifically that "The precision-machined cast
>> iron trunions are mounted to the cabinet". So I repeat my question.
>> In what way is it not a "cabinet saw"?
>>
>
>Thank you for posting that as I was just thinking about the fact that
>the salesman has made such a big deal about it when speaking with him.
>Being new to this I didn't really understand why he was making such a
>big deal about it. So it seems like a pretty big deal :-)
>
>This is the products main page:
>http://www.steelcitytoolworks.com/products_tools.cfm?section=2&category=12&tool=35670
>

>They say this:
>
>"Cabinet Mounted Trunion System:
>The precision-machined cast iron trunions are mounted to the cabinet to
>ensure perfect blade alignment, increased stability and to eliminate
>vibration. "


For the sake of clarity, what has been labeled a hybrid cabinet saw in
the past is a saw with trunnion brackets mounted to the bottom of the
table and a tie bar trunnion carriage assembly. Essentially a
contractor saw that has had the motor mounting relocated, maybe with
the addition of a half HP, and an enclosed cabinet added. Dewalt also
produces one that has a 3/4" cabinet, I believe.

The next step up was a cabinet saw that had wide trunnion brackets
mounted at the four corners of the top plate of the cabinet with a
very heavy, all cast iron trunnion yoke assembly. Top of the line
Unisaw, PM66 (slightly different design here), General (Canadian) and
far east imports Jet, Griz, and some other knockoffs.

The saw you depicted is a hybrid of a hybrid. Got the cabinet mounted
trunnion brackets, but the trunnion carriage is a contractor tie bar
style.

I would agree with the comments about increased stability and
lessoning of vibration, however, the "perfect" blade alignment really
depends on how well it is manufactured. Fact is that all saws can be
adjusted to "perfect" at 90, but the differential at 45 then becomes
the variable. It is slightly more difficult for the manufacturer to
insure a limited differential with a cabinet mounted system. With the
table mounted system, the table is machined and ground so the plane of
the top compared to the plane of the mounting bosses has a capable
range of a few thou. With a cabinet mounted system, the top plate of
a cabinet is subject to the capable range of blanking, forming, and
welding sheet metals, so that plane difference may be .020".
Distances and projected dimensions come into play. If the
manufacturer is sloppy with their sheet metal work, that 45 dimension
is not going to be so hot.

The owner can always shim to "perfection" if inclined to do so, the
manufacturer will not be able to take the time on an assembly line.

Above for information purposes only, I'll not comment on your choices,
have not seen or used either of them. I know all the principles
involved with Steel City, they are all ex-Delta and good product
people. I know that they have made an effort to treat their
distributors equitably so it does not surprise me that the dealers
reccommend their product. But as to the product itself, you should do
the necessary due diligence to compare.

Frank

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 09:36:18 -0500, "J. Clarke"
<[email protected]> wrote:

<snipped a bunch to address only the last comment>

>>
>> The owner can always shim to "perfection" if inclined to do so, the
>> manufacturer will not be able to take the time on an assembly line.
>
>One of the other features on that particular model is "Exterior
>Adjustment for 45° and 90° Blade Stops:
>Provides easy and accurate settings for the 45° and 90° positive
>stops."
>
Has nothing to do with 90 or 45 degree blade alignment to the slot
which was the claim in the ad and was what I was addressing with my
post.

Frank

>>
>>
>>
>> Frank
>
>--

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 17:10:19 -0500, "Upscale" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>

>
>As far as you know, is there any practical or beneficial reasons to not have
>the trunions attached to the table but instead attached to the cabinet?
>

Yes, It allows you to expand the trunnion brackets to the four corners
of the cabinet, giving you the opportunity to place a beefier
yoke/trunion assembly and motor bracket in the mechanism. Hybrids
that have a contractor saw style tie rod carriage assembly tend to be
less robust.

Frank

The one I got was marked as a type II industrial fence. Their version
of the Besemeyer (SP) with HDPE side slabs and heavy guage steel
components. Their "delux" fence is a cheaper variation on the same
theme with Melamine covered MDF side slabs, lighter guage seel stock
and fewer adjustment options.
Those are the only two I have seen from them. So I can't speak to the
others they may have. I do know they offer the actual Besemeyer brand
fence as an option.
JDH


On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:49:34 -0500, Phisherman <[email protected]>
wrote:

>The "Steel City" looks good in the picture. But the description says
>very little about the "Fence System," one of the most important parts
>of any table saw.

US-made is always good, but as a practical matter, understand that most
US manufacturers started moving their casting operations to the Far East
and South America by 1980, Delta included. And this was not just for
the lower end of their product lines. In the mid-80's Delta was selling
industrial tools made for them in South America.

Faced with re-tooling because (a) your post-war factories are worn out,
and (b) they don't meet Clean Air and OSHA requirements, what would you
do? Go to a developing country that doesn't have the regulations, has
cheaper labor and gives you tax abatements. Duh.

Quality is not geographic; Deming studied the Japanese to understand how
they did it. Also consider, say, Chevrolet vs. Hyundai: Who had the
100K warranty first? Not GM. When they re-designed their pickups in
the late 80's, they gave a 50K warranty. Ours was back for warranty
repairs and recalls numerous times, and then the warranty on new
vehicles was back to 36K/36 months. In the end it comes down to
corporate will. Now that Dewalt owns Delta, my personal jury is out.
The local Delta distributor admitted that they had high hopes for some
new and improved products when the ownership changed, but so far all
they've seen is a massive advertising campaign.

Bill T. Ray wrote:
> I have a Delta Cabinet Saw, the cheapest cabinet saw they made back
> then. I bought it new around 1990. I am a moderate user. Woodworking
> is a hobby, not a profession. But, I have never had any problems with
> it. I like it. When you make an adjustment, it stays adjusted. Mine is
> made in the U.S. I have come to the conclusion that U.S., European,
> and Japanese quality far exceeds that of Taiwan, China, and Korea when
> it comes to tools. I have a couple of Delta tools, drill press and
> portable planer, that are made in Taiwan. They are not up to the
> quality of my Delta table saw or lathe made in the U.S. but still
> quite servicable. I no longer by tools made anyhwere but the U.S.,
> Western Europe, or Japan. I prefer to buy U.S. made tools when
> possible. I'm particular about quality. I am a retired
> engineer/engineering professor.
>
> Happy saw dust making.
>
> Bill
>

[snip]

>>
>> I want to go American, but can not afford more than around $1000 for a TS.
>>
>> Adam

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:14:58 -0500, "J. Clarke"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>>
>> False. Demming taught the Japanese how to do it. He brought
>> statistical process control, the basis for all aspects of lean
>> manufacturing, to the Japanese when the US auto manufacturers were
>> not
>> interested. Prior to his indoctrination the Japanese were known for
>> cheap junk.
>
>Like the A6M5 and the Type 91 torpedo? The Japanese did listen to
>Deming and implemented his methods with great success, but they
>wouldn't have if they weren't already very quality-conscious.

Your opinion? Or is there some statistical basis for your statement

>The
>hardware they were making during WWII was already superb. They just
>couldn't make enough of it.
>

While I have no idea if that statement is true what has it got to do
with the deplorable state of Japanese manufacturing after the war?
My statement simply corrected a comment that said that Deming studied
the Japanese to determine how to manufacture. He did not, he taught
them. He taught them to manufacture and distribute mass produced
products for the global markets, something they had failed miserably
at prior to his intervention.

Frank

>
>--

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 10:54:43 GMT, "George" <[email protected]> wrote:


>What else to do in this weather?

You snowed in again, George?
Just think of all that spalting going on under the snow!

(I won't mention that it's 60f here this morning)
damn, did I say that out loud?


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:15:46 -0500, "J. Clarke"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Frank Boettcher wrote:
>> On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 09:36:18 -0500, "J. Clarke"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> <snipped a bunch to address only the last comment>
>>
>>>>
>>>> The owner can always shim to "perfection" if inclined to do so,
>>>> the
>>>> manufacturer will not be able to take the time on an assembly
>>>> line.
>>>
>>> One of the other features on that particular model is "Exterior
>>> Adjustment for 45° and 90° Blade Stops:
>>> Provides easy and accurate settings for the 45° and 90° positive
>>> stops."
>>>
>> Has nothing to do with 90 or 45 degree blade alignment to the slot
>> which was the claim in the ad and was what I was addressing with my
>> post.
>
>Look again.
>
>--
Look at what. The portion of the Steel City web ad that the OP
referred to had to do with "perfect blade alignment" as a result of
"cabinet mounted trunions" That is what I was referring to and that
has nothing to do with blade stops. That fact that it has exterior
adjustable stops is nice, but not unique.


Frank

On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 19:54:10 -0600, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:

Having compared the Delta and Steel Cuty hybrids side by side
(literaly, at Tool King) I was impressed by the Steel City, clean
castings, heavily built, positive controls and the details made it
for me. That and a review of their respective owners manuals, amazing
what you can glean from them. The Delta looks to be a pain to adjust.
JDH
>
>"Adam" wrote
>
>> comperable. I just don't know what I am missing...
>
>Go somewhere you can compare them side by side, even if you have to take a
>trip. If you've used a table saw much at all, you probably won't even have
>to do any cutting to make a decision.