Ping Robert & Bill (Nailshootter & SonomaProducts)

On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 12:49:54 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:

>=20
> Personally, I would take a look at the F3 Hi-Bild on this page. For even=
harder use, I would look at their polyurethane. =20
> http://oem.sherwin-williams.com/products/wood/clear-wood-finishes
>=20
> The problem with both finishes is that you have to buy another 5 gallon b=
ucket of the stuff to get any. =20

My local SW has both the Hi-Bild and Poly in gallon cans, about $40 a gallo=
n. The guy says the poly doesn't spray exactly like my Pre-cat lacquer, b=
ut I shouldn't have any problems spraying the poly. I'll do some practice=
spray-runs.

My present 5 gal precat lacquer was purchased 6-25-14. I've been using th=
is for at least 10 yrs., probably longer. I may switch to the Poly or the =
Hi-Bild for everything, if I can spray it as well as I've been spraying the=
lacquer. Either seems to be as cheap as the Varethane ($50 a gal.)

I got the table top sanded to 320 grit, last night. Have a few touch-up sp=
ots to sand, still. One leg unit still needs some 120 & 220 sanding. Hop=
e to spray this weekend, barring weather.... I spray outdoors.

And I'll need help carrying & setting up, the table top, outdoors (11.5' X =
4' X 1 3/8").... it weighs about 250-300 lbs, I think. My help won't be av=
ailable until the weekend.

I think I'll have to build a stand for the top, to prop it up at an angle, =
to spray it. I don't think I can properly/conveniently spray it, if it's l=
ying flat.

Thanks.
Sonny

On Sunday, August 16, 2015 at 10:00:34 AM UTC-5, Sonny wrote:

> I always try to spray shellac and lacquer, rather than brush on. I thin=
k my self-taught spraying is okay, except for getting lots of overspray in =
tight corners, inside cabinets, etc. =20
>=20

If you are that far along, change to a super thinned version of your coatin=
g and shoot it at the lowest pressure you can to get a good finish. And re=
member, no matter how good you are, that stuff just seems to happen anyway.

>=20
Here, again, you're making me rethink my procedure/schedule. In the past,=
I've used (Lowes) water based Varethane Floor Finish for utility "abused" =
surfaces, like on my sewing tables, on the (camp's) gun/china cabinet, etc.=
For my more refined pieces, I've always used this Sherwin Williams preca=
t lacquer and catalyst: https://www.flickr.com/photos/43836144@N04/
>=20
> Is this (pictured) industrial enough for table-top use/abuse? I don't t=
hink it is water based, since I thin it and clean-up with lacquer thinner.

It isn't water based. It is a very good product, and I actually have some =
in my shop now. That's a really good product and was an industry standard =
for years. It is easy to build a finish and control its application. To m=
e, its highest and best use is cabinets and vertical finish applications su=
ch as cabinets and furniture. Perfectly fine for table tops if it is somet=
hing like a lamp table or coffee table. Not the best for a high use table.=
Also, isn't that the old label from many years back? I seem to remember =
they changed a few years ago (might be mistaken), and not too sure it matte=
rs since catalyzed products seem to last a really long time on the shelf.
>=20

> I'll do that, check with SW.

When you get there, check out some of their newer offerings. They are more=
yellow resistant, and have a higher abrasion quotient that makes them good=
for both vertical and horizontal surfaces like table tops. The newer fini=
shes don't require a sub coat or primer (yes!) and you can start straight a=
way with building your finishes. They should work fine over your shellac. =
Recoats are quick, and some even have great pot life. Mix, load the gun, =
seal in a container, and use from the container as needed. I buy cheap con=
tainers from the dollar store and Big Lots by the case.

Personally, I would take a look at the F3 Hi-Bild on this page. For even h=
arder use, I would look at their polyurethane. =20
http://oem.sherwin-williams.com/products/wood/clear-wood-finishes

The problem with both finishes is that you have to buy another 5 gallon buc=
ket of the stuff to get any. SW doesn't always keep their website up to da=
te an they may have something new they are trying in your area. So go see =
the biggest store and ask them what you can get in a couple of gallons. If=
not, there certainly isn't a thing wrong with the stuff you have, just mak=
e sure your finished coating has a thickness of about 4-5 mil on the top.

> "Textured" surfaces: I have always liked some surface texture, especial=
ly when using old or salvaged lumber. I generally don't like lots of stra=
ight lines, straight/square cuts. I like lots of curves, which is one re=
ason I wanted live edges on the table top and the root balls used for the l=
egs.
>

Right there with you on that.

> I'm hoping (wishful thinking?) to finish this table by Aug 29, to show it=
off to relatives, when they come for the family reunion.=20

To me, I don't see why you couldn't make that happen pretty easily if you a=
re shooting a product you know. It is impressive that you are spraying pre=
-cats, so that certainly shows some fluency with the equipment and material=
s.

When I have a project like that to spray, I do everything I can the night b=
efore, get up, make some coffee, the start coating. The first coat is usua=
lly a fast dry, then I apply the second coat in 30 minutes, then another on=
e in 30 more, then another in about an hour. During that hour, I get some =
breakfast. Depending on the pot life of the product (and the SW stuff you =
have qualifies) I shoot the last coat about an hour later, aiming to be thr=
ough with all spraying by 11 or so in the morning. Four wet coats should g=
et you where you need to go, and it is complete in one day.=20

You easily have enough time to do a test piece to determine your final thic=
kness and see how many coats you need to apply to get what you want. The g=
ood thing about a table is that you can put 3-4 coats on the legs and other=
structure pieces and put as much as you want on the top depending on how m=
uch protection you want. If that product you have is as old as I think it =
might be, it wouldn't hurt to test it out. Give your finish about 48 hours =
before using it and while it won't be at full cured strength, it will be fi=
ne for use.

> The recent month of 100 degree heat is taxing my efforts. *Yesterday I =
bought a frig for the shop (validation: shop accessory), so that I don't ha=
ve to walk to the house to get a beer. Lately, Ive become too lazy to wal=
k that far, after stints of heated woodworking. =20
>=20
> Thanks Robert.
> Sonny

Any time. Glad to be of help. Down here in South Texas, we had a 107 degr=
ee day last week where I was working (outside on a roof repair no less) and=
I am really feeling every degree these days. Come on Fall!

Robert

On Friday, August 14, 2015 at 11:57:26 AM UTC-5, Sonny wrote:
> And anyone else with input, recommedations.....
>=20
> Re: Finishing Walnut Table
>=20
> Remembering my mistake of applying BLO to the trestle board, for popping=
the grain, but BLO darkens/blurrs with age.
>=20
> I'm just about ready to finish the rest of the raw wood table:
> You've recommended (I read other various posts/threads, as well) applying=
shellac (rather than BLO), to pop the grain.... thinned coats, right?, in =
order to have some penetration into the wood? Apply with a brush? I'm t=
hinking, spraying won't allow for much penetration.

For the reason that DaddiOH expressed, I don't thin my first coat. But for=
this reason, I do. Thinning the material makes it lay out better since th=
e first coat faces the most drag on the brushes, and thinning reduces drag =
and allows the thinned material to flow into the irregularities of the surf=
ace. As DaddiO said, it DOES NOT increase penetration on a sanded surface.

>=20
> Is spraying the thinned coat just as good as brushing? OR would you re=
commend brushing-on the thinned coat? Reason for my asking: I'm not look=
ing forward to brushin-on shellac over the whole of the table parts.
>=20

I spray when possible. It's very simple; to get the same penetration/film t=
hickness as a brush application, put the same amount on with your spray gun=
. Shoot a nice wet coat of shellac (dewaxed) tuned to your spray equipment=
, and go on your way. Want some depth to the finish? Put about three coat=
s of shellac on, all sprayed. Shellac will resolvate and easily bite into =
the previous coats, no sanding needed.


> Once the thinned shellac coat is applied, would another #2 or #3 cut coat=
be recommended? .... 2nd coat sprayed on.
>

See above. Set your gun up to apply a wet, smooth, coat. If you are happy=
with the appearance and ease of application, then don't change the mix. S=
ince shellac resolvates, there is no reason to change your gun setup/materi=
al mix for the tiny benefit you get. If you don't think you are getting en=
ough material on the surface, apply another coat, don't put on a thick coat=
. While shellac can be recoated quickly, that doesn't mean it has complete=
ly outgassed. Thick coats on top of one another can trap the alcohol fumes=
in the finish and make it take much longer for your substrate to be cured =
out.
=20
> I plan to spray/top coat the shellac with 2 or 3 coats of lacquer.=20
>

Why you would use lacquer on a dining room/kitchen/contantly cleaned table,=
I don't know. If you are insistent on lacquer, look at some of the "water=
clear" industrial lacquers that are out there from Sherwin Williams or ML =
Cambell. They are made for this type of application and are tough as nails=
. Both are post catalyzed, but not difficult by any means to use. Both ar=
e made for hard use and will probably last as long as you have the table.

If you don't want to go that route, I would strongly suggest using polyuret=
hane on the top. A good paint store like Sherwin Williams, etc., NOT HD OR=
LOWES, will have a yellowing resistant finish you can shoot. It made appe=
ar different in appearance from the shellac, but the shellac will amber ove=
r time and probably come very close to an exact match on a dark wood like w=
alnut. And you need to remember, the top will get full light and will look =
lighter/different than the rest of the table anyway. You won't have that m=
uch trouble with ambering on the top with poly if you have that good prime =
coat of shellac.

I have a client that I have done a lot of work for over a period of many ye=
ars. She acquired a big, heavy, America made farm table with heavy turned =
legs and a 2" thick maple butcher block top. She had me refinish it. I spr=
ayed the legs with the same super enamel I used on her cabinets but she wan=
ted clear on the top. I stripped and sanded the top, and put on two really=
thick coats of Minwax (just read in one of the finishing pubs how well it =
stacked up against the more expensive and exotic finishes) with a pad. No =
prime coat of anything. That was about twelve years ago. It has not amber=
ed, and is as good as new after being used hard as a kid's dining room tabl=
e, the homework table, the craft project table, the Christmas prep table, t=
he metal baking rack table, the alternate food prep table at the holidays, =
etc. =20

For the record, I like Minwax poly. (I can hear the shrieks of horror from=
here!) I used on my significant other's desk after seeing how well that ha=
s held up, and put 4 thin coats on over the flame birch top. The condition=
is still perfect and it gets used many, many hours a week. After about 10=
years, there is some ambering, but It may be the birch as much as the poly=
.

The really nice thing in the instance of using a good poly is you don't hav=
e to prime coat with anything. I think a shot of shellac really enhances t=
he grain, but more importantly under poly it will keep the poly from making=
the finish muddied. So to wrap all that noise up, for me, shoot shellac a=
nd get at least a 1 mil dried coat of shellac on the surface (up to 2 mil O=
K, no more), then a couple of good coats of poly. =20
=20
> Additional comment: Two months ago, I stripped the trestle board, but a=
pparently not all of the BLO was removed. Some did penetrate. Once stri=
pped and washed with lacquer thinner, I brushed on #2 shellac. Yesterday,=
I sanded the trestle board (prepping for final finish) and the sand paper =
still clots, a bit, not much... I suppose it's the BLO, still. The trestl=
e board looks nice, though, so I'll just coat it with #2 or #3 shellac, bef=
ore applying the lacquer.
>=20
> In other threads, you mention filling the grain, of some woods. Why is =
this important? Should I consider filling the grain of this walnut dining=
table?
>=20
> Thanks.
> Sonny

Good on ya for the lacquer wash. It cleans up the uncured,fouled bits of f=
inish well. My favorite cleaner. And for cleaning, the cheaper the better=
.

For a couple of centuries, walnut was always filled. Always. It was a sign=
of fine finishing. And again to touch on DaddiOH's comment (the man is a =
fountain of this stuff!) FFFF pumice was the weapon of choice for fine fini=
shing. A couple of centuries ago and even further back, the French Polish =
method of dauber and method was used to achieve filling the grain while fin=
ishing. Filling the wood provided a smooth, attractive, cleanable surface.

Fast forward to now, and unless it as a nut wood with heavy tubules we don'=
t fill. This actually started as a reaction in the 60s to the fact that so=
me of the fake wood tops looked so much like wood that they fooled the cons=
umer. So wood grain became the fashion in 60s up to this day. However, it=
also eliminated a finishing step for furniture manufacturers and for the h=
ome enthusiast by dropping the bar to a reasonable level. Who wants to spe=
nt three weeks French Polishing a table top? Not me!

You can get fillers (the best being FFFF pumice or the like)and simply appl=
y them as a pasted, then sand off the top lightly and it is "filled". But =
for most folks taste, like mine, I like a little wood grain texture in the =
finish as it me it adds a bit of warmth and authenticity. I don't fill.

Good luck, Sonny. Hope you let us know how it turned out.

Robert

On Friday, August 14, 2015 at 4:06:02 PM UTC-5, woodchucker wrote:

So blonde to get the pop, and add Orange
> to enhance without going overboard, to get your desired color.
>
> Test to be sure.
>
> Walnut is not a grain that I think requires filling. Not like other open
> pored woods.

> Jeff

Thanks Jeff. All I have is dewaxed super blonde (flakes) and 2 half filled quarts of sealcoat, not sure which tones of Sealcoat, but I think both are clear (dates 2012 & 2013).

Didn't have a chance to do any testing, earlier today.... ran a few errands this afternoon... but will test.

Sonny

On 8/14/2015 12:57 PM, Sonny wrote:
> And anyone else with input, recommedations.....
>
> Re: Finishing Walnut Table
>
> Remembering my mistake of applying BLO to the trestle board, for popping the grain, but BLO darkens/blurrs with age.
>
> I'm just about ready to finish the rest of the raw wood table:
> You've recommended (I read other various posts/threads, as well) applying shellac (rather than BLO), to pop the grain.... thinned coats, right?, in order to have some penetration into the wood? Apply with a brush? I'm thinking, spraying won't allow for much penetration.
>
> Is spraying the thinned coat just as good as brushing? OR would you recommend brushing-on the thinned coat? Reason for my asking: I'm not looking forward to brushin-on shellac over the whole of the table parts.
>
> Once the thinned shellac coat is applied, would another #2 or #3 cut coat be recommended? .... 2nd coat sprayed on.
>
> I plan to spray/top coat the shellac with 2 or 3 coats of lacquer.
>
> Additional comment: Two months ago, I stripped the trestle board, but apparently not all of the BLO was removed. Some did penetrate. Once stripped and washed with lacquer thinner, I brushed on #2 shellac. Yesterday, I sanded the trestle board (prepping for final finish) and the sand paper still clots, a bit, not much... I suppose it's the BLO, still. The trestle board looks nice, though, so I'll just coat it with #2 or #3 shellac, before applying the lacquer.
>
> In other threads, you mention filling the grain, of some woods. Why is this important? Should I consider filling the grain of this walnut dining table?
>
> Thanks.
> Sonny
>

Spraying shellac is fine. It's not the type of finish that really
penetrates the wood. I would mix blonde shellac, with a little orange
to get more depth. I think orange provides a little more pop, but on
Walnut may darken it too much. So blonde to get the pop, and add Orange
to enhance without going overboard, to get your desired color.

Test to be sure.

Walnut is not a grain that I think requires filling. Not like other open
pored woods.

Don't use waxed shellac. You want dewaxed especially if you are top
coating with Laquer. The wax will prevent a good adhesion for the Laquer.



--
Jeff

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> On Friday, August 14, 2015 at 1:22:09 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
>
> > Filling is only important if you want a glassy smooth finish. Think pianos.
> > Fill walnut? I wouldn't. If you do, try using #FFFF pumice.
>
> I like to think some of the natural surface, including texture, is desirable to see and feel, so I hadn't considered filling any grain.
>
> > BLO does indeed darken with age. How much it darkens is primarily a
> > function of how smooth the surface was to begin with;
>
> I had sanded the trestle board to 320 grit, but left the BLO on for a good while, before wiping off.
>
> > All my life I have heard, "Thin the first coat so it will penetrate". I
> > have never believed it, still don't. Why? The finish molecules are much
> > smaller than any interstices in the wood. If I had a microscope I'd prove
> > it but I don't.
>
> I have a microscope. What do I look for? I would suppose the alcohol would (initialy) penetrate faster, hence more would be absorbed deeper into the wood, carrying the shellac with it. But also, the alcohol dries so fast, it wouldn't be absorb as readily (or as deep) as, say, water. I would think an oil would have a better tendency to penetrate deeper, slowly wick deeper, with time, as opposed to a quicker drying finish.

Google "surface tension".
>
> > Have you compared the pop from shellac to that of lacquer?
>
> I've never compared the two. .... Never thought to compare the two! I'll compare my bath cabinets (walnut sprayed only with lacquer) to a shellac sample (to be done today). My bath cabinets look nice!
>
> Thanks.
> Sonny

On Friday, August 14, 2015 at 1:22:09 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:

> Filling is only important if you want a glassy smooth finish. Think pian=
os.=20
> Fill walnut? I wouldn't. If you do, try using #FFFF pumice.

I like to think some of the natural surface, including texture, is desirabl=
e to see and feel, so I hadn't considered filling any grain.
=20
> BLO does indeed darken with age. How much it darkens is primarily a=20
> function of how smooth the surface was to begin with;=20

I had sanded the trestle board to 320 grit, but left the BLO on for a good =
while, before wiping off.

> All my life I have heard, "Thin the first coat so it will penetrate". I=
=20
> have never believed it, still don't. Why? The finish molecules are much=
=20
> smaller than any interstices in the wood. If I had a microscope I'd prov=
e=20
> it but I don't.

I have a microscope. What do I look for? I would suppose the alcohol wo=
uld (initialy) penetrate faster, hence more would be absorbed deeper into t=
he wood, carrying the shellac with it. But also, the alcohol dries so fast=
, it wouldn't be absorb as readily (or as deep) as, say, water. I would t=
hink an oil would have a better tendency to penetrate deeper, slowly wick d=
eeper, with time, as opposed to a quicker drying finish.
=20
> Have you compared the pop from shellac to that of lacquer?

I've never compared the two. .... Never thought to compare the two! I'=
ll compare my bath cabinets (walnut sprayed only with lacquer) to a shellac=
sample (to be done today). My bath cabinets look nice!

Thanks.
Sonny

On Saturday, August 15, 2015 at 12:28:52 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:

> I spray when possible.....

I always try to spray shellac and lacquer, rather than brush on. I think =
my self-taught spraying is okay, except for getting lots of overspray in ti=
ght corners, inside cabinets, etc. =20


> Why you would use lacquer on a dining room/kitchen/contantly cleaned tabl=
e, I don't know. If you are insistent on lacquer, look at some of the "wat=
er clear" industrial lacquers that are out there from Sherwin Williams or M=
L Cambell. =20

Here, again, you're making me rethink my procedure/schedule. In the past,=
I've used (Lowes) water based Varethane Floor Finish for utility "abused" =
surfaces, like on my sewing tables, on the (camp's) gun/china cabinet, etc.=
For my more refined pieces, I've always used this Sherwin Williams preca=
t lacquer and catalyst: https://www.flickr.com/photos/43836144@N04/

Is this (pictured) industrial enough for table-top use/abuse? I don't thi=
nk it is water based, since I thin it and clean-up with lacquer thinner.


> If you don't want to go that route, I would strongly suggest using polyur=
ethane on the top. A good paint store like Sherwin Williams, etc., NOT HD =
OR LOWES, will have a yellowing resistant finish you can shoot. =20

I'll do that, check with SW.

>=20
> For a couple of centuries, walnut was always filled. .....

"Textured" surfaces: I have always liked some surface texture, especially=
when using old or salvaged lumber. I generally don't like lots of straig=
ht lines, straight/square cuts. I like lots of curves, which is one reas=
on I wanted live edges on the table top and the root balls used for the leg=
s.

Regarding the root ball legs: I cut and planed them when the wood was gre=
en, 2-3 yrs ago. They have since dried, further, and the surfaces have wa=
rped. I like this warped effect.... see the subsequent pics on the Flickr=
page. That initial fairly severe checking, in one of the slabs, that was=
filled with West System's 650-8 G-Flex epoxy - http://www.westsystem.com/s=
s/g-flex-epoxy/ - has held up very well. The subsequent warping has not a=
ffected that epoxy "repair"/filling. There is no other areas, on either l=
eg unit, that have checked to the point of needing repair, filing, etc.

I'm hoping (wishful thinking?) to finish this table by Aug 29, to show it o=
ff to relatives, when they come for the family reunion. The recent month o=
f 100 degree heat is taxing my efforts. *Yesterday I bought a frig for th=
e shop (validation: shop accessory), so that I don't have to walk to the ho=
use to get a beer. Lately, Ive become too lazy to walk that far, after st=
ints of heated woodworking. =20

Thanks Robert.
Sonny

Sonny wrote:
> And anyone else with input, recommedations.....
>
> Re: Finishing Walnut Table
>
> Remembering my mistake of applying BLO to the trestle board, for
> popping the grain, but BLO darkens/blurrs with age.
>
> I'm just about ready to finish the rest of the raw wood table:
> You've recommended (I read other various posts/threads, as well)
> applying shellac (rather than BLO), to pop the grain.... thinned
> coats, right?, in order to have some penetration into the wood?
> Apply with a brush? I'm thinking, spraying won't allow for much
> penetration.
>
> Is spraying the thinned coat just as good as brushing? OR would you
> recommend brushing-on the thinned coat? Reason for my asking: I'm
> not looking forward to brushin-on shellac over the whole of the table
> parts.
>
> Once the thinned shellac coat is applied, would another #2 or #3 cut
> coat be recommended? .... 2nd coat sprayed on.
>
> I plan to spray/top coat the shellac with 2 or 3 coats of lacquer.
>
> Additional comment: Two months ago, I stripped the trestle board,
> but apparently not all of the BLO was removed. Some did penetrate.
> Once stripped and washed with lacquer thinner, I brushed on #2
> shellac. Yesterday, I sanded the trestle board (prepping for final
> finish) and the sand paper still clots, a bit, not much... I suppose
> it's the BLO, still. The trestle board looks nice, though, so I'll
> just coat it with #2 or #3 shellac, before applying the lacquer.
>
> In other threads, you mention filling the grain, of some woods. Why
> is this important? Should I consider filling the grain of this
> walnut dining table?
>
> Thanks.
> Sonny


You didn't ask me but I'm tired of sanding, sooo...

Filling is only important if you want a glassy smooth finish. Think pianos.
Fill walnut? I wouldn't. If you do, try using #FFFF pumice.

BLO does indeed darken with age. How much it darkens is primarily a
function of how smooth the surface was to begin with; i.e., how much is
caught in the nooks and crannies of the surface. I have a couple of sapwood
poplar trays in a kitchen drawer, both with BLO, both 20+ years old. One is
very little darker than the original wood; it was well sanded. The other is
about the color of varnished butternut; it was sanded much less well.

All my life I have heard, "Thin the first coat so it will penetrate". I
have never believed it, still don't. Why? The finish molecules are much
smaller than any interstices in the wood. If I had a microscope I'd prove
it but I don't.

Have you compared the pop from shellac to that of lacquer?

Sonny wrote:
> On Friday, August 14, 2015 at 1:22:09 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:

>> All my life I have heard, "Thin the first coat so it will
>> penetrate". I
>> have never believed it, still don't. Why? The finish molecules are
>> much
>> smaller than any interstices in the wood. If I had a microscope I'd
>> prove
>> it but I don't.
>
> I have a microscope. What do I look for? I would suppose the
> alcohol would (initialy) penetrate faster, hence more would be
> absorbed deeper into the wood, carrying the shellac with it. But
> also, the alcohol dries so fast, it wouldn't be absorb as readily (or
> as deep) as, say, water. I would think an oil would have a better
> tendency to penetrate deeper, slowly wick deeper, with time, as
> opposed to a quicker drying finish.

Apply thinned and unthinned to small, different areas of the same piece of
wood, let dry, cut slices and compare penetration depth.