On Thu, 31 Mar 2011 19:53:28 -0700 (PDT), Father Haskell
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Mar 28, 7:24 pm, "[email protected]"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Mon, 28 Mar 2011 15:24:13 -0700 (PDT), Father Haskell
>>
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >On Mar 28, 6:11 pm, "SBH" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >> Thanks dadiOH
>>
>> >> From what you've explained, using these finishes eliminates the use of
>> >> stains since some darken the wood or is it safe to assume the finish which
>> >> doesn't really color wood or colors very little can be used with stains or
>> >> can any of these be a mix and match?
>>
>> >Orange or garnet shellacs lend a warm tone to
>> >otherwise cold looking woods, such as cherry or walnut.
>>
>> Cherry and Walnut are cold looking woods? <yikes!>
>
>When newly surfaced, before aging. Tinted finishes are
>very common with older walnut and cherry.
They still aren't "cold", IMO. Ash may be considered "cold", but even before
developing a patina, Cherry is very nice stuff. Of course it only gets better
with age.
>Air-dried walnut contains lots of blue and purple.
>Puts kiln-dried to shame.
I still don't see "cold".
On Mar 28, 11:14=A0am, SBH <[email protected]> wrote:
> I have a general knowledge of stains and have done some experimenting
> with stains and some different woods, but how does one know when to
> use different protecting finishes such as oils, shellac, polyurethane,
> etc.? Anyone also know of a good tutorial online to provide some
> insight?
>
> Thank you
*No* finish is always an option. Plane or sand the wood smooth
with 2,000 grit and let the oil and wear from handling bring out
the patina.
SBH wrote:
> I have a general knowledge of stains and have done some experimenting
> with stains and some different woods, but how does one know when to
> use different protecting finishes such as oils, shellac, polyurethane,
> etc.?
You forgot lacquer :)
Basically, one uses what one wants taking into consideration what the piece
will be used for and the finish characteristics. A brief rundown...
OIL
Very easy to use both initially and to repair. Colors the wood well, offers
little to no protection. Boiled linseed oil will darken considerably over
time, tung oil doesn't.
LACQUER
I'm assuming you don't have spray equipment, NP, Deft makes a nice brushing
lacquer. It too is easy to apply initially and to repair but doing so is
more work than oil. Most commercial furniture is finished with lacquer. It
is reasonably scratch resistant and water proof. Dries rapidly which means
multiple coats can be appied in one day. No sanding is needed between coats
as a new coat melts into the underlying ones.
SHELLAC
Much the same as lacquer, may color the wood more depending on what kind
(color) of shellac is used.
ALKYD/PHENOLIC VARNISH
Dries slowly (hours) to an attractive and durable finish. Needs multiple
coats, sanding between coats. Will color the wood.
POLYURETHANE VARNISH
The hardest and most scratch resistant coating the average DIYer will
encounter. It is the most difficult to repair. It needs sanding between
coats unless additional coats are applied within the time frame specified by
the manufacturer (generally, within four hours).
There are two kinds: oil base and water base. The oil is marginally more
durable, colors the wood. Water base colors the wood very little, good for
light colored woods that you want to remain light but to me it looks "dead".
Water base dries more rapidly.
ACRYLIC
Never used them, don't want to.
_____________
Any clear top coat - with the exception of oil - requires a *LOT* of work to
get a good looking, flawless surface; they will never be any better than the
surface to which they are applied. That means the surface needs to be dead
flat, free of tool marks and sanded smooth. They need at least three coats,
many times six or more.
Top coats which melt don't have to be sanded between coats except to remove
dust nibs, others (again, excepting oil) do to get rid of dust, drips, runs,
etc. For a really good job, the last coat needs to rubbed down with
something like FFFF steel wool and then polished with finer abrasives
(pumice/rottenstone) to whatever degree of sheen you want. Steel wool
followed by paste wax will give a pleasant, semi-gloss sheen.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
Father Haskell wrote:
> On Mar 28, 6:11 pm, "SBH" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Thanks dadiOH
>>
>> From what you've explained, using these finishes eliminates the use
>> of stains since some darken the wood or is it safe to assume the
>> finish which doesn't really color wood or colors very little can be
>> used with stains or can any of these be a mix and match?
I don't see the above as an individual post so am replying to it here.
You can use any top coat on a piece of stained wood. I suppose you could
use oil too but it would serve little purpose if the stain was oil base.
Oil base stains pretty much seal the wood thereby preventing top coats from
coloring the wood by wetting it.
The top coats that color the wood don't darken it so much as wet it. If you
dab a bit of spit (or water if you are fastidious) on wood it will color
(darken) the wood but that color disappears when the wood dries just as it
does with water base top coats. Color is also added by the natural color of
the top coat (which is due in large part to the oil in it for varnishes).
Color is also added as the top coat ages; again, for varnishes, that is
mostly due to the oil...linseed oil by itself becomes a blackish red when in
thick layers. Finally, even raw wood changes color as it ages due to UV and
air; light woods generally become darker and many dark woods become lighter
and warmer (eg, walnut) but some darker woods such as cherry and mahogany
become darker and redder. That natural aging also occurs under clear top
coats though an UV inhibitor in the top coat will slow the aging.
Stains are used for various reasons:
1. To make a piece of wood resemble something which it is not. EG, walnut
stain on poplar
2. To enhance the natural color. EG, a reddish stain on mahogany
3. To even up the color. EG, color lighter sap wood
4. To give wood an un-natural color. EG, blue, green, black, etc.
IME, beginning amateur woodworkers almost always use stain regardless of
what wood they are using. As time passes and they learn to appreciate the
natural colors, grain patterns and figures of wood, they almost never use
it.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
On Mar 28, 6:11=A0pm, "SBH" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Thanks dadiOH
>
> From what you've explained, using these finishes eliminates the use of
> stains since some darken the wood or is it safe to assume the finish whic=
h
> doesn't really color wood or colors very little can be used with stains o=
r
> can any of these be a mix and match?
Orange or garnet shellacs lend a warm tone to
otherwise cold looking woods, such as cherry or walnut.
On Mar 28, 12:53=A0pm, "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:
> =A0 =A0 SHELLAC
> Much the same as lacquer, may color the wood more depending on what kind
> (color) of shellac is used.
Not as durable, but if applied right, nothing else can
equal it for appearance and feel. Great finish for appreciative
customers who don't abuse their furniture.
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> Father Haskell wrote:
> > On Mar 28, 6:11 pm, "SBH" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Thanks dadiOH
> >>
> >> From what you've explained, using these finishes eliminates the use
> >> of stains since some darken the wood or is it safe to assume the
> >> finish which doesn't really color wood or colors very little can be
> >> used with stains or can any of these be a mix and match?
>
> I don't see the above as an individual post so am replying to it here.
>
> You can use any top coat on a piece of stained wood.
Always read the instructions for both the stain and the topcoat. Some
stains aren't happy with some topcoats. Also for any combination of
stain and topcoat, try it on a test piece--sometimes the topcoat can
alter the color of the stain.
> I suppose you could
> use oil too but it would serve little purpose if the stain was oil base.
> Oil base stains pretty much seal the wood thereby preventing top coats from
> coloring the wood by wetting it.
>
> The top coats that color the wood don't darken it so much as wet it. If you
> dab a bit of spit (or water if you are fastidious) on wood it will color
> (darken) the wood but that color disappears when the wood dries just as it
> does with water base top coats. Color is also added by the natural color of
> the top coat (which is due in large part to the oil in it for varnishes).
> Color is also added as the top coat ages; again, for varnishes, that is
> mostly due to the oil...linseed oil by itself becomes a blackish red when in
> thick layers. Finally, even raw wood changes color as it ages due to UV and
> air; light woods generally become darker and many dark woods become lighter
> and warmer (eg, walnut) but some darker woods such as cherry and mahogany
> become darker and redder. That natural aging also occurs under clear top
> coats though an UV inhibitor in the top coat will slow the aging.
>
> Stains are used for various reasons:
>
> 1. To make a piece of wood resemble something which it is not. EG, walnut
> stain on poplar
>
> 2. To enhance the natural color. EG, a reddish stain on mahogany
>
> 3. To even up the color. EG, color lighter sap wood
>
> 4. To give wood an un-natural color. EG, blue, green, black, etc.
5. To match an existing piece, EG much mucking about to get a set of
shelves to match the color of a 200 year old book case.
> IME, beginning amateur woodworkers almost always use stain regardless of
> what wood they are using. As time passes and they learn to appreciate the
> natural colors, grain patterns and figures of wood, they almost never use
> it.
On Mar 28, 7:24=A0pm, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Mar 2011 15:24:13 -0700 (PDT), Father Haskell
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >On Mar 28, 6:11=A0pm, "SBH" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Thanks dadiOH
>
> >> From what you've explained, using these finishes eliminates the use of
> >> stains since some darken the wood or is it safe to assume the finish w=
hich
> >> doesn't really color wood or colors very little can be used with stain=
s or
> >> can any of these be a mix and match?
>
> >Orange or garnet shellacs lend a warm tone to
> >otherwise cold looking woods, such as cherry or walnut.
>
> Cherry and Walnut are cold looking woods? =A0<yikes!>
When newly surfaced, before aging. Tinted finishes are
very common with older walnut and cherry.
Air-dried walnut contains lots of blue and purple.
Puts kiln-dried to shame.
On Mar 28, 9:54=A0am, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
wrote:
> I've always referred to Jeff Jewitt's _Hand Applied Finishes_.
> It's a peach.
Jewitt has some really good stuff out there and sells his own
finishes. If you buy from him, you can call him and get a 5 minute
consult on his products.
I always like Bob Flexnor's books better, but that is certainly a
matter of individual taste.
When I was starting out, I liked books better as I could take them
with me to the testing grounds to set up guns, try brushing
techniques, padding techniques, and to troubleshoot problems.
If you are looking for something online, just Google "furniture
finishing tutorial" and you will find things like this everywhere:
http://www.creationsbykara.com/2010/05/diy-tutorial-staining-furniture.html
Good luck!
Robert
On Mon, 28 Mar 2011 08:14:50 -0700 (PDT), SBH <[email protected]>
wrote:
>I have a general knowledge of stains and have done some experimenting
>with stains and some different woods, but how does one know when to
>use different protecting finishes such as oils, shellac, polyurethane,
>etc.? Anyone also know of a good tutorial online to provide some
>insight?
>
>Thank you
I've always referred to Jeff Jewitt's _Hand Applied Finishes_.
It's a peach.
--
If the only prayer you ever say in your whole
life is "thank you," that would suffice.
-- Meister Eckhart
On Mon, 28 Mar 2011 11:53:43 -0500, "dadiOH" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>SBH wrote:
>> I have a general knowledge of stains and have done some experimenting
>> with stains and some different woods, but how does one know when to
>> use different protecting finishes such as oils, shellac, polyurethane,
>> etc.?
>
>You forgot lacquer :)
>
>Basically, one uses what one wants taking into consideration what the piece
>will be used for and the finish characteristics. A brief rundown...
Here's a more extensive but similar rundown from Jeff Jewitt:
http://www.finewoodworking.com/pages/w00060.asp
My only comment to what is listed here, is that if you are going to
mess with lacquer get a high quality respirator.
Other than that, there are tradeoffs in terms of expense, ease of
application, sheen, durability, impact of the solvents on your lungs,
liver, and the environment, and how much color the finish imparts to
the wood.
I generally use boiled linseed oil to bring out the grain and shellac
or alkyd varnish as a top coat, depending on if I need the durability
of varnish. If not I'll use shellac from flakes because it is
inexpensive and fast and I can add dye if I want to adjust the color.
>> Jim
On Mon, 28 Mar 2011 15:24:13 -0700 (PDT), Father Haskell
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Mar 28, 6:11 pm, "SBH" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Thanks dadiOH
>>
>> From what you've explained, using these finishes eliminates the use of
>> stains since some darken the wood or is it safe to assume the finish which
>> doesn't really color wood or colors very little can be used with stains or
>> can any of these be a mix and match?
>
>Orange or garnet shellacs lend a warm tone to
>otherwise cold looking woods, such as cherry or walnut.
Cherry and Walnut are cold looking woods? <yikes!>