I am building an oak cabinet, roughly 48 inches wide, 30 high, and 10 deep
which will contain glassware. I want to wall mount this unit, and I was
wondering if (normal) walls are up to the task, and what are the best means
of anchoring it to the wall to have the best support. Any ideas?
Thanks!
Jean-François
"Tim Douglass" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 23:53:35 GMT, "Jon Endres, PE"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >As an example - I built a simple bookshelf for my office - birch ply and
a
> >face frame, dadoed and rabbeted and glued. I used a french cleat with
four
> >screws, two per stud, and used two more screws (#10 x 3) to secure the
> >bottom. To test, I did a couple of chinups on the shelf. I weigh almost
> >290 lb. It held. Do it this way and you won't have to worry about any
> >normal amount of weight.
>
> What amazes me, Jon, is not that the shelf held 290 lbs, but that you,
> weighing 290 lbs, are able to do a couple of chin ups. I'm only 275
> and anything involving lifting my body weight has been out of the
> question for years.
>
> Tim Douglass
Two or three is about all I'm capable of. Always been a big boy, but I've
kept myself in marginally good enough shape to do what needs to be done. :)
One thing I have worried about, as a volunteer firefighter, is getting into
trouble and having my fellow FF's not be able to get me out. Full air pack
and gear I tip the scales at almost 340 lbs.
J
Mannanan asks:
>
>I am building an oak cabinet, roughly 48 inches wide, 30 high, and 10 deep
>which will contain glassware. I want to wall mount this unit, and I was
>wondering if (normal) walls are up to the task, and what are the best means
>of anchoring it to the wall to have the best support. Any ideas?
>
You need to screw it into the studs, not the wall. Locate the studs before
mounting the cabinet, pick the spots for your screws, and drive them neatly
into the studs.
If you like, place a decorative brace just under the cabinet, screwed into the
same studs.
Studs will support a devil of a lot more weight than will expansion fasteners
in drywall or plaster.
Depending on load, I'd use 2 or 3 screws per stud (on 24" centers, you'll hit
3, on 16" centers, you might hit 4). #10 or #12, 3" length. Do NOT use drywall
screws.
Charlie Self
"I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less we use
our power the greater it will be." Thomas Jefferson
On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 14:36:08 -0800, Rico <[email protected]> wrote:
>> What amazes me, Jon, is not that the shelf held 290 lbs, but that you,
>> weighing 290 lbs, are able to do a couple of chin ups. I'm only 275
>> and anything involving lifting my body weight has been out of the
>> question for years.
Hey!
I'm 250 and bicycle 4000 miles a year (on and off road), play roller
hockey in the summer and ice hockey in the winter.
I regularily leave mere 170 pounders in the dust on my bikes.
It's a number... <G>
Barry
"Mannanan MacLir" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:L%[email protected]...
> I am building an oak cabinet, roughly 48 inches wide, 30 high, and 10 deep
> which will contain glassware. I want to wall mount this unit, and I was
> wondering if (normal) walls are up to the task, and what are the best
means
> of anchoring it to the wall to have the best support. Any ideas?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Jean-François
Look up "french cleat". http://www.newwoodworker.com/frenchcleat.html
If you attach the lower portion of the cleat to the wall studs with lag
bolts or large screws (2 or more per stud) and then use additional short
screws to simply secure the bottom of the cabinet to the wall, you should be
able to hang a couple hundred pounds.
As an example - I built a simple bookshelf for my office - birch ply and a
face frame, dadoed and rabbeted and glued. I used a french cleat with four
screws, two per stud, and used two more screws (#10 x 3) to secure the
bottom. To test, I did a couple of chinups on the shelf. I weigh almost
290 lb. It held. Do it this way and you won't have to worry about any
normal amount of weight.
Jon E
What part of the world are you in? Makes a big difference on the answer to
your question.
You did build your cabinet, destined for wall use, with built-in screw
strips, didn't you?
I build both wall and base units, which must be attached to a wall, with at
least an upper and lower 3/4" thick screw strip that sits flush between the
back panel and back edge of the cabinet sides.
TIP: If you bevel the bottom part of the TOP screw strip, it will also do
double duty it as the top half of a "French cleat'.
Here in the US, where most construction is wooden frame, I use deck or
drywall screws for the LOWER screw strips of my cabinets, screwed into studs
or blocking.
BUT, I _always_ screw at least two 3 1/2" lag bolts, using the TOP screw
strip of the cabinet, the number depending upon the width of the cabinet,
into at least two studs, or the blocking between the studs.
On a 48" wide cabinet, I would use 3 lag bolts on the TOP screw strip, one
in the middle and the other two evenly spaced toward the sides.
Fastened thusly at the TOP screw strip, you can use just about any type of
screw, drywall or otherwise in the lower screw strips and the cabinet will
handle all the weight for which it was designed.
I recently started using "French cleats", but I still like the lag bolts in
the top screw strip for peace of mind, particularly when I do work for
someone besides myself ... not to mention possible liability issues.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 9/21/03
"Mannanan MacLir"wrote in message
> I am building an oak cabinet, roughly 48 inches wide, 30 high, and 10 deep
> which will contain glassware. I want to wall mount this unit, and I was
> wondering if (normal) walls are up to the task, and what are the best
means
> of anchoring it to the wall to have the best support. Any ideas?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Jean-François
>
>
>
Mannanan MacLir wrote:
> I am building an oak cabinet, roughly 48 inches wide, 30 high, and 10 deep
> which will contain glassware. I want to wall mount this unit, and I was
> wondering if (normal) walls are up to the task, and what are the best means
> of anchoring it to the wall to have the best support. Any ideas?
As Charlie said you want the screws secured in the wall studs. If the studs
placement doesn't work for the cabinet a "French cleat" might help. See:
http://benchmark.20m.com/plans/FrenchCleat.pdf
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
(Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)
Larry Kraus wrote:
> How do you join this screw strip to the cabinet? I've looked through
> many cabinetry books and articles without finding many details on this
> connection. Looking at most manufactured kitchen wall cabinets, it
> appears that the strip just fits between the end panels and squeezes
> the back panel to the wall. Since the back panel is usually just a
> stapled-on piece of eighth inch ply or hardboard, I'm unable to see
> where the strength is.
The top screw strip should be attached to the top of the cabinet and also at the
ends, to each side panel. The bottom one should be attached to the bottom and
the sides.
Properly done, the screw strip is itself screwed into the cabinet top and
sides, and to the bottom and sides ... it becomes an integral part of the
cabinet construction and _very_ strong.
For additional strength in a cabinet that must hold a lot of weight, I also
glue it to the back panel when I install it.
Keep in mind that the back panel in a cabinet made this way is contained in
a rabbet that is cut 3/4" from the back edge of the two cabinet sides. If
you use a 3/4" thick screw strip, generally about 4 1/2" wide, it fits flush
with the back edges of the cabinet.
I'll mention again that if you bevel the bottom edge of the top screw strips
before installing it, the strip itself can also be used as the top half of a
"French
Cleat.
When doing this, I often use a double French cleat and put an additional
screw strip in the middle of the back of the cabinet. There is a picture of
this double cleat used to install a wall cabinet on my website: one of the
journal pages (writing desk).
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 9/21/03
"Larry Kraus" wrote in message
> How do you join this screw strip to the cabinet? I've looked through
> many cabinetry books and articles without finding many details on this
> connection. Looking at most manufactured kitchen wall cabinets, it
> appears that the strip just fits between the end panels and squeezes
> the back panel to the wall. Since the back panel is usually just a
> stapled-on piece of eighth inch ply or hardboard, I'm unable to see
> where the strength is.
>
>
> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >I build both wall and base units, which must be attached to a wall, with
at
> >least an upper and lower 3/4" thick screw strip that sits flush between
the
> >back panel and back edge of the cabinet sides.
>
How do you join this screw strip to the cabinet? I've looked through
many cabinetry books and articles without finding many details on this
connection. Looking at most manufactured kitchen wall cabinets, it
appears that the strip just fits between the end panels and squeezes
the back panel to the wall. Since the back panel is usually just a
stapled-on piece of eighth inch ply or hardboard, I'm unable to see
where the strength is.
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>I build both wall and base units, which must be attached to a wall, with at
>least an upper and lower 3/4" thick screw strip that sits flush between the
>back panel and back edge of the cabinet sides.
Around here, mainly to keep the leveling wedges from falling out, and lets
you get away with actually using all those drywall screws you have on hand
from another project. ;>)
IME, using the bottom screw strips helps in pulling the cabinet tightly
against the wall, helps with rigidity of the unit, and aids in leveling a
line of cabinets when part of a wall of cabinets fastened together.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 9/21/03
"Juergen Hannappel"wrote in message
> > Fastened thusly at the TOP screw strip, you can use just about any type
of
> > screw, drywall or otherwise in the lower screw strips and the cabinet
will
> > handle all the weight for which it was designed.
>
> What is the use of the lower screw strip? The upper one bears the
> weight, keeps the cabinit from falling. The lower would just keep it
> from lifting off the wall, which it would have to do against gravity;
> Most wall-hanging cabinets from furniture shops come with only the
> upper mounting option...
On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 20:55:25 GMT, "Jon Endres, PE"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Two or three is about all I'm capable of. Always been a big boy, but I've
>kept myself in marginally good enough shape to do what needs to be done. :)
>One thing I have worried about, as a volunteer firefighter, is getting into
>trouble and having my fellow FF's not be able to get me out. Full air pack
>and gear I tip the scales at almost 340 lbs.
I remember that. I was a vol. FF for several years before moving. We
had a little gal about 120 lbs soaking wet who wanted to work on the
hose teams. I refused to work with her because she couldn't even drag
me across a smooth concrete floor. If there wasn't someone big enough
to make a serious stab at moving me I just stayed out of the
structure.
Tim Douglass
http://www.DouglassClan.com
Silvan wrote:
> You could do the same kind of thing for a cabinet easily. If you have any
> doubts about the weight, add it up and talk to your local building
> inspector.
>
>
>
Hang 1000 lb on two wall studs in a standard 8 foot high
wall with the cg 6 inches out from the wall. That results in
a 95 psi compressive load on the studs which is
approximately insignificant. It also results in a force of
about 35 lbs at the top of each stud pulling each stud out
from the wall. All he needs to be concerned about is
adequately securing the cabinets to the studs. The wall
itself is no sweat.
Rico
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Tim Douglass wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 23:53:35 GMT, "Jon Endres, PE"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >As an example - I built a simple bookshelf for my office - birch ply and a
> >face frame, dadoed and rabbeted and glued. I used a french cleat with four
> >screws, two per stud, and used two more screws (#10 x 3) to secure the
> >bottom. To test, I did a couple of chinups on the shelf. I weigh almost
> >290 lb. It held. Do it this way and you won't have to worry about any
> >normal amount of weight.
>
> What amazes me, Jon, is not that the shelf held 290 lbs, but that you,
> weighing 290 lbs, are able to do a couple of chin ups. I'm only 275
> and anything involving lifting my body weight has been out of the
> question for years.
>
> Tim Douglass
>
Yeah, but he has a degree in PE.
Dick
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Charlie's got ya covered.
dave
Mannanan MacLir wrote:
> I am building an oak cabinet, roughly 48 inches wide, 30 high, and 10 deep
> which will contain glassware. I want to wall mount this unit, and I was
> wondering if (normal) walls are up to the task, and what are the best means
> of anchoring it to the wall to have the best support. Any ideas?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Jean-François
>
>
>
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 23:53:35 GMT, "Jon Endres, PE"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>As an example - I built a simple bookshelf for my office - birch ply and a
>face frame, dadoed and rabbeted and glued. I used a french cleat with four
>screws, two per stud, and used two more screws (#10 x 3) to secure the
>bottom. To test, I did a couple of chinups on the shelf. I weigh almost
>290 lb. It held. Do it this way and you won't have to worry about any
>normal amount of weight.
What amazes me, Jon, is not that the shelf held 290 lbs, but that you,
weighing 290 lbs, are able to do a couple of chin ups. I'm only 275
and anything involving lifting my body weight has been out of the
question for years.
Tim Douglass
http://www.DouglassClan.com
On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 23:10:08 GMT, B a r r y B u r k e J r .
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 14:36:08 -0800, Rico <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>> What amazes me, Jon, is not that the shelf held 290 lbs, but that you,
>>> weighing 290 lbs, are able to do a couple of chin ups. I'm only 275
>>> and anything involving lifting my body weight has been out of the
>>> question for years.
>
>
>Hey!
>
>I'm 250 and bicycle 4000 miles a year (on and off road), play roller
>hockey in the summer and ice hockey in the winter.
>
>I regularily leave mere 170 pounders in the dust on my bikes.
>
>It's a number... <G>
You see me in profile and you'll realize it's a *big* number. I use
24" stud spacing because I don't fit between the 16" stuff any more.
My wife is a good cook and broadly tolerant of my WW endeavors. Now
she has me fattened up to where I can't get away. Last tool purchase
discussion involved some statement like "Go ahead and get it, I know
you'll make something for me with it." (insert own choice of tone).
Life is good, but I'd love to be 6" smaller around the waist and about
50# lighter for the benefit of the bad knees.
Tim Douglass
http://www.DouglassClan.com
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> "Tim Douglass" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 23:53:35 GMT, "Jon Endres, PE"
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > >As an example - I built a simple bookshelf for my office - birch ply and
> a
> > >face frame, dadoed and rabbeted and glued. I used a french cleat with
> four
> > >screws, two per stud, and used two more screws (#10 x 3) to secure the
> > >bottom. To test, I did a couple of chinups on the shelf. I weigh almost
> > >290 lb. It held. Do it this way and you won't have to worry about any
> > >normal amount of weight.
> >
> > What amazes me, Jon, is not that the shelf held 290 lbs, but that you,
> > weighing 290 lbs, are able to do a couple of chin ups. I'm only 275
> > and anything involving lifting my body weight has been out of the
> > question for years.
> >
> > Tim Douglass
>
> Two or three is about all I'm capable of. Always been a big boy, but I've
> kept myself in marginally good enough shape to do what needs to be done. :)
> One thing I have worried about, as a volunteer firefighter, is getting into
> trouble and having my fellow FF's not be able to get me out. Full air pack
> and gear I tip the scales at almost 340 lbs.
>
> J
Man, anything happens to you, and your fellow FF's aren't getting you
out, they're getting out the barbecue sauce. :-)
They are quite brittle. They tend to snap.
"Mark Jerde" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Charlie Self wrote:
>
> > Do NOT use drywall screws.
>
> Why is that?
>
> -- Mark
>
>
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 07:01:24 GMT, Larry Jaques <jake@di\/ersify.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> >I've had failures in drywall screws, but it was from a
> >racking/bending force, not shear force. Have you had a
> >failure from shear?
>
> Overtightening a drywall screw, which is common with power-driven
> screws into wood/wood interfaces, will twist the head right off.
>
> Barry
>
But that's a torsional force, not shear force.
Greetings and Salutations.
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 05:11:19 GMT, "Wade Lippman"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Mark Jerde asks:
>>
>> >Charlie Self wrote:
>> >
>> >> Do NOT use drywall screws.
>> >
>> >Why is that?
>> >
>>
>> They're brittle, so their shear strength is poor.
>>
>I have used deck screws for things like that. Are they brittle also? I
>figure they are pretty much the same as drywall screws except for length. A
>few have broken going in, but I have never had a problem afterwards.
>
>
Nope...Deck Screws are NOT hardened to the extent that drywall
screws are...so they are a lot "tougher" - resistant to breaking when
drilling in.
As for hanging the cabinet...I would recommend (as others
have) the French cleat method. Although it does space the cabinet
out half an inch or so, it is going to be THE strongest and most
flexible way to hang them. I have been using the technique some
years now, and was interested to note that one of the woodworking
magazines has JUST published a lengthy and very positive article
about the technique.
Shoot one or two screws though the wall cleat into the studs
(making sure to get an inch into the stud itself) and you just about
will be able to hang an elephant on the cleat before it fails.
Regards
Dave Mundt
When I first "discovered" the french cleat method for hanging
cabinets, when redoing my kitchen ages ago, I thought it was the
greatest idea since <insert witty invention here>.
BUT, beware of unsquare/unplumb corners in (old) houses.
Built a lovely corner unit that musta weighed 40# (maybe more, not
less) Now, I know 40# to you brutes is barely equivalent to a feather
for me. But for l'il ole me it gets kinda heavy, especially when one
has to repeatedly lift the ^#@%#*^%# cabinet a hundert times because
the &$*^%#* walls aren't *&%&$*& straight!
But, I get ahead of myself...
So, I fasten a cleat to each wall. Lift the cabinet...resort to
sliding it up the wall, and hang it on the cleats. The walls are soo
bad that it won't grab both cleats. Long story short - mess around
with various adjustments, including a cleat on one wall, but in the
end, mount the cabinet the old fashioned way, directly into the walls
using lags (I don't have studs, didn't trust the furring strips, so I
lagged into the concrete block (brick and block walls) - The lagging
was yet more excitement, entailing rather long screws (have to
accomodate the furring strips and drywall), but I don't recall nor
will I bore you with the details.
Those corner cabinets aren't moving. If I found myself a 350#
football linebacker for a boyfriend, I can rest assured he could do
his chin ups off those cabinets ;-)
Renata
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 09:40:31 GMT, [email protected] (Dave Mundt) wrote:
> Greetings and Salutations.
>
> Nope...Deck Screws are NOT hardened to the extent that drywall
>screws are...so they are a lot "tougher" - resistant to breaking when
>drilling in.
> As for hanging the cabinet...I would recommend (as others
>have) the French cleat method. Although it does space the cabinet
>out half an inch or so, it is going to be THE strongest and most
>flexible way to hang them. I have been using the technique some
>years now, and was interested to note that one of the woodworking
>magazines has JUST published a lengthy and very positive article
>about the technique.
> Shoot one or two screws though the wall cleat into the studs
>(making sure to get an inch into the stud itself) and you just about
>will be able to hang an elephant on the cleat before it fails.
> Regards
> Dave Mundt
>
Andrew Barss wrote:
> This is absolutely true. But I've never known why.
> So ... why are drywall screws so hard and brittle?
> They're designed to go through drywall, which is
> not very hard, and then softwood 2xs.
>
> Anyone know?
So you twist lots of heads off and have to buy more screws?
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
Mark & Juanita wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
> > On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 07:01:24 GMT, Larry Jaques <jake@di\/ersify.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> > >I've had failures in drywall screws, but it was from a
> > >racking/bending force, not shear force. Have you had a
> > >failure from shear?
> >
> > Overtightening a drywall screw, which is common with power-driven
> > screws into wood/wood interfaces, will twist the head right off.
> >
> > Barry
> >
>
> But that's a torsional force, not shear force.
>
Shear occurs in torsion too.
Dick
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"Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Mark Jerde asks:
>
> >Charlie Self wrote:
> >
> >> Do NOT use drywall screws.
> >
> >Why is that?
> >
>
> They're brittle, so their shear strength is poor.
>
I have used deck screws for things like that. Are they brittle also? I
figure they are pretty much the same as drywall screws except for length. A
few have broken going in, but I have never had a problem afterwards.
Wade Lippman asks:
>>
>I have used deck screws for things like that. Are they brittle also? I
>figure they are pretty much the same as drywall screws except for length. A
>few have broken going in, but I have never had a problem afterwards.
>
Deck screws should be less brittle, but a lot depends on the particular deck
screw. Given a choice, which we usually are, I'd kick back on-line and pop over
to www.mcfeelys.com for answers on screws. Jim has several types of deck
screw,d epending on material used, and he has a potful of driver type screws up
to something like 3-7/8". He also has a #10 deep thread that he recommends for
hanging cabinets. It comes in four different finishes, has a round washer head,
is a #10 and comes in 5/8" to 3" lengths.
Charlie Self
"I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less we use
our power the greater it will be." Thomas Jefferson
Charlie Self <[email protected]> wrote:
: Mark Jerde asks:
:>Charlie Self wrote:
:>
:>> Do NOT use drywall screws.
:>
:>Why is that?
:>
: They're brittle, so their shear strength is poor.
This is absolutely true. But I've never known why.
So ... why are drywall screws so hard and brittle?
They're designed to go through drywall, which is
not very hard, and then softwood 2xs.
Anyone know?
-- Andy Barss
In article <[email protected]>,
todd <[email protected]> wrote:
>"Andrew Barss" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> Charlie Self <[email protected]> wrote:
>> : Mark Jerde asks:
>>
>> :>Charlie Self wrote:
>> :>
>> :>> Do NOT use drywall screws.
>> :>
>> :>Why is that?
>> :>
>>
>> : They're brittle, so their shear strength is poor.
>>
>> This is absolutely true. But I've never known why.
>> So ... why are drywall screws so hard and brittle?
>> They're designed to go through drywall, which is
>> not very hard, and then softwood 2xs.
>>
>> Anyone know?
>>
>> -- Andy Barss
>
>Don't forget that they're also designed to be drilled into a metal stud.
>Perhaps they are as hard as they are to be able to drill through the steel.
Maybe to save money - they are hardened so they aren't dead soft, and
then they save the tempering step.
--
--henry schaffer
[email protected]
"Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
> > On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 07:01:24 GMT, Larry Jaques <jake@di\/ersify.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> > >I've had failures in drywall screws, but it was from a
> > >racking/bending force, not shear force. Have you had a
> > >failure from shear?
> >
> > Overtightening a drywall screw, which is common with power-driven
> > screws into wood/wood interfaces, will twist the head right off.
> >
> > Barry
> >
>
> But that's a torsional force, not shear force.
Lots of armchair engineers in the audience lately. The primary failure mode
of a circular member in torsion is by shear stress. There's a difference in
a shear force and a shear stress.
todd
"Larry Jaques" <jake@di\/ersify.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 16 Nov 2003 02:03:15 GMT, [email protected] (Charlie Self)
> brought forth from the murky depths:
>
> >Mark Jerde asks:
> >
> >>Charlie Self wrote:
> >>
> >>> Do NOT use drywall screws.
> >>
> >>Why is that?
> >>
> >
> >They're brittle, so their shear strength is poor.
>
> Yeah, if you accidentally drop 4 bowling balls on one
> shelf of your glassware hutch at once it might cause the
> whole thing to fall. ;)
>
> I've had failures in drywall screws, but it was from a
> racking/bending force, not shear force. Have you had a
> failure from shear?
No, but the *slightest* bit of bending during maximum shear load will cause
failure. There's only one thing drywall screws are good for, and that's
hanging drywall. If an in-duh-vidual is too cheap to spring for a box of
decent screws to support some weight, the in-duh-vidual deserves to have
their project fall apart.
Jon E
- just say (tmPL) I took a ingineering class once....
"Andrew Barss" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Charlie Self <[email protected]> wrote:
> : Mark Jerde asks:
>
> :>Charlie Self wrote:
> :>
> :>> Do NOT use drywall screws.
> :>
> :>Why is that?
> :>
>
> : They're brittle, so their shear strength is poor.
>
>
>
> This is absolutely true. But I've never known why.
> So ... why are drywall screws so hard and brittle?
> They're designed to go through drywall, which is
> not very hard, and then softwood 2xs.
>
> Anyone know?
>
>
> -- Andy Barss
Don't forget that they're also designed to be drilled into a metal stud.
Perhaps they are as hard as they are to be able to drill through the steel.
todd
todd responds:
>Don't forget that they're also designed to be drilled into a metal stud.
>Perhaps they are as hard as they are to be able to drill through the steel
Might be, except I think drywall screws pre-date metal studs by quite a few
years.
And it has never bothered fastener manufacturers to put out an extra product or
two to cover things like metal studs. The confusion factor is not theirs, it's
ours.
Charlie Self
"If a politician found he had cannibals among his constituents, he would
promise them missionaries for dinner." H. L. Mencken
On 26 Nov 2003 09:22:20 GMT, [email protected] (Charlie Self)
brought forth from the murky depths:
>todd responds:
>
>>Don't forget that they're also designed to be drilled into a metal stud.
>>Perhaps they are as hard as they are to be able to drill through the steel
>
>Might be, except I think drywall screws pre-date metal studs by quite a few
>years.
>
>And it has never bothered fastener manufacturers to put out an extra product or
>two to cover things like metal studs. The confusion factor is not theirs, it's
>ours.
Don't they use self-drilling drywall screws for metal studs?
That sounds like a new product.
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On 16 Nov 2003 02:03:15 GMT, [email protected] (Charlie Self)
brought forth from the murky depths:
>Mark Jerde asks:
>
>>Charlie Self wrote:
>>
>>> Do NOT use drywall screws.
>>
>>Why is that?
>>
>
>They're brittle, so their shear strength is poor.
Yeah, if you accidentally drop 4 bowling balls on one
shelf of your glassware hutch at once it might cause the
whole thing to fall. ;)
I've had failures in drywall screws, but it was from a
racking/bending force, not shear force. Have you had a
failure from shear?
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Larry Jaques questions:
>Yeah, if you accidentally drop 4 bowling balls on one
>shelf of your glassware hutch at once it might cause the
>whole thing to fall. ;)
>
>I've had failures in drywall screws, but it was from a
>racking/bending force, not shear force. Have you had a
>failure from shear?
I've had heads twist off with very low force--hand driven, in fact. So there's
no chance at all I'll ever have a shear failure in a real project with one. I
simply do not use them except to install wallboard.
Charlie Self
"I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less we use
our power the greater it will be." Thomas Jefferson
mttt wrote:
> Hell yeah! You've should be worried about the bux you've blown on
> books that are out-of-date already? Any of them "Programming Apple
> ][ Pascal"? Or "PDP-11 Assembly Language"? :)
>
>
> Pssst - have you got any room to store my two VIC-20 books???
On the other side of the room is my "Hall of Fame" bookshelf. When a
generation of books becomes useless I get rid of most, keeping a few that
give me warm-fuzzies:
"The C Programming Language" by K & R (Pre ANSI version)
"Inside the IBM PC" by Norton, 2nd Ed. (Has a now funny description of
the massive amounts of space in the 1MB address space)
A couple 8086 assembly language books. (I did some really low level
stuff in MSDOS 1.0)
Two SNOBOL books. (How I miss that pattern-matching language!)
Petzold's "Programming Windows 3.1"
Just two texts from college.
I wish I'd have kept the PDP-11 assembly language book. ;-) I used to be
semi-decent at addition and subtraction in octal.
-- Mark
Charlie Self wrote:
> I've had heads twist off with very low force--hand driven, in fact. So
> there's no chance at all I'll ever have a shear failure in a real project
> with one. I simply do not use them except to install wallboard.
Wish I had remembered how hard they are. I used some to screw a jig
together. The points were sticking out a trifle at the bottom, so I
whipped out my handy dandy X-Acto razor saw.
Such a pity. I used that stupid thing all the time for cutting everything,
but now it's ruined unless I find some reallllly tiny needle files to put
new points on it.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
Silvan wrote:
> Charlie Self wrote:
>
> > I've had heads twist off with very low force--hand driven, in fact. So
> > there's no chance at all I'll ever have a shear failure in a real project
> > with one. I simply do not use them except to install wallboard.
>
> Wish I had remembered how hard they are. I used some to screw a jig
> together. The points were sticking out a trifle at the bottom, so I
> whipped out my handy dandy X-Acto razor saw.
>
> Such a pity. I used that stupid thing all the time for cutting everything,
> but now it's ruined unless I find some reallllly tiny needle files to put
> new points on it.
>
>
Whack the protruding ends with a hammer and they snap right
off. I learned that from a guy that built stage sets for
acting groups. Works like a champ.
As Billy Gates would say regarding their brittleness, "It's
not a bug, it's a feature."
Dick
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"Mark Jerde" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Charlie Self wrote:
> > Larry Jaques questions:
> >
> >> Yeah, if you accidentally drop 4 bowling balls on one
> >> shelf of your glassware hutch at once it might cause the
> >> whole thing to fall. ;)
> >>
> >> I've had failures in drywall screws, but it was from a
> >> racking/bending force, not shear force. Have you had a
> >> failure from shear?
> >
> > I've had heads twist off with very low force--hand driven, in fact.
> > So there's no chance at all I'll ever have a shear failure in a real
> > project with one. I simply do not use them except to install
> > wallboard.
>
> In my home office I have 3 sets of 3 eight foot bookshelves attached to
the
> wall studs with 2" drywall screws. The shelves are chocked full of mainly
> computer programming books, dunno, maybe 1000 lbs on each set of the 3
> shelves. They've been up for several years. Any reason I should be
> worried? (I don't recall for sure, but I probably drilled a hole for most
> of the length before putting in the screws.)
>
> -- Mark
I wouldn't be that concerned at this point. My beef with drywall screws
(like Charlie, it sounds), is that they seem to twist off the head during
installation rather easily.
todd
Charlie Self wrote:
> Larry Jaques questions:
>
>> Yeah, if you accidentally drop 4 bowling balls on one
>> shelf of your glassware hutch at once it might cause the
>> whole thing to fall. ;)
>>
>> I've had failures in drywall screws, but it was from a
>> racking/bending force, not shear force. Have you had a
>> failure from shear?
>
> I've had heads twist off with very low force--hand driven, in fact.
> So there's no chance at all I'll ever have a shear failure in a real
> project with one. I simply do not use them except to install
> wallboard.
In my home office I have 3 sets of 3 eight foot bookshelves attached to the
wall studs with 2" drywall screws. The shelves are chocked full of mainly
computer programming books, dunno, maybe 1000 lbs on each set of the 3
shelves. They've been up for several years. Any reason I should be
worried? (I don't recall for sure, but I probably drilled a hole for most
of the length before putting in the screws.)
-- Mark
Mark Jerde asks:
>
>In my home office I have 3 sets of 3 eight foot bookshelves attached to the
>wall studs with 2" drywall screws. The shelves are chocked full of mainly
>computer programming books, dunno, maybe 1000 lbs on each set of the 3
>shelves. They've been up for several years. Any reason I should be
>worried? (I don't recall for sure, but I probably drilled a hole for most
>of the length before putting in the screws.)
Half a ton? Books are heavy, but that's still a lot of books. If the screws
haven't sheared off by now, I'd forget it. I think. Then again, I might run in
some other type of steel screws just to be safe.
Hope you're not in earthquake country.
Charlie Self
"I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less we use
our power the greater it will be." Thomas Jefferson
On 16 Nov 2003 14:24:34 GMT, [email protected] (Charlie Self)
wrote:
>Mark Jerde asks:
>
>>
>>In my home office I have 3 sets of 3 eight foot bookshelves attached to the
>>wall studs with 2" drywall screws. The shelves are chocked full of mainly
>>computer programming books, dunno, maybe 1000 lbs on each set of the 3
>>shelves. They've been up for several years. Any reason I should be
>>worried? (I don't recall for sure, but I probably drilled a hole for most
>>of the length before putting in the screws.)
>
>Half a ton? Books are heavy, but that's still a lot of books. If the screws
>haven't sheared off by now, I'd forget it. I think. Then again, I might run in
>some other type of steel screws just to be safe.
>
>Hope you're not in earthquake country.
Earthquake would be my biggest worry. The additional jarring might
easily start a chain reaction of breaking screws. I've used drywall
screws to hold cabinet parts together then later torn them apart. You
can easily tell the difference in strength between the drywall screws
and "regular" screws. Even the cheap deck screws from the Borg have
much better shear strength than good drywall screws.
Oh, half a ton of books isn't much. Get out a scale and start
figuring. A set of encyclopedias can easily run 150-200 lbs.
Tim Douglass
http://www.DouglassClan.com
"Mark Jerde" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> wall studs with 2" drywall screws. The shelves are chocked full of mainly
> computer programming books, dunno, maybe 1000 lbs on each set of the 3
> shelves. They've been up for several years. Any reason I should be
> worried? (I don't recall for sure, but I probably drilled a hole for most
Hell yeah! You've should be worried about the bux you've blown on books
that are out-of-date already? Any of them "Programming Apple ][ Pascal"?
Or "PDP-11 Assembly Language"? :)
Pssst - have you got any room to store my two VIC-20 books???
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 07:01:24 GMT, Larry Jaques <jake@di\/ersify.com>
wrote:
>I've had failures in drywall screws, but it was from a
>racking/bending force, not shear force. Have you had a
>failure from shear?
Overtightening a drywall screw, which is common with power-driven
screws into wood/wood interfaces, will twist the head right off.
Barry
"Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Mark Jerde asks:
>
> >Charlie Self wrote:
> >
> >> Do NOT use drywall screws.
> >
> >Why is that?
> >
>
> They're brittle, so their shear strength is poor.
>
> Charlie Self
> "I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less
we use
> our power the greater it will be." Thomas Jefferson
I think it's also the case that they have a relatively narrow shank, which
obviously doesn't improve their strength.
todd
On 16 Nov 2003 00:10:26 GMT, [email protected] (Charlie Self)
wrote:
>Mannanan asks:
>
>>
>>I am building an oak cabinet, roughly 48 inches wide, 30 high, and 10 deep
>>which will contain glassware. I want to wall mount this unit, and I was
>>wondering if (normal) walls are up to the task, and what are the best means
>>of anchoring it to the wall to have the best support. Any ideas?
>>
>
>You need to screw it into the studs, not the wall. Locate the studs before
>mounting the cabinet, pick the spots for your screws, and drive them neatly
>into the studs.
>
>If you like, place a decorative brace just under the cabinet, screwed into the
>same studs.
>
>Studs will support a devil of a lot more weight than will expansion fasteners
>in drywall or plaster.
>
>Depending on load, I'd use 2 or 3 screws per stud (on 24" centers, you'll hit
>3, on 16" centers, you might hit 4). #10 or #12, 3" length. Do NOT use drywall
>screws.
If the stud spacing doesn't match the best places to put screws in the
cabinets, he could install blocking as follows.
Thickness some 4" wide hardwood to the same thickness as the existing
wall board. Remove 4x? horizontal strips of drywall. Install
horizontal 2x4 spanners between studs, flush with the fronts of the
exposed studs. Glue and screw the one-piece hardwood runners to the
exposed studs and newly installed blocks. Screw the cabinets to the
hardwood blocking. This will allow the cabinetry to be installed with
the screws in the best places.
As Charlie says, use "real" wood screws, not brittle drywall screws.
Simply hitting the studs as Charlie described will be plenty strong,
but sometimes you need the blocking to do the job right.
Barry
Mannanan MacLir wrote:
> I am building an oak cabinet, roughly 48 inches wide, 30 high, and 10 deep
> which will contain glassware. I want to wall mount this unit, and I was
> wondering if (normal) walls are up to the task, and what are the best
> means of anchoring it to the wall to have the best support. Any ideas?
I don't know what that "French cleat" flummy Jack was talking about is. It
may be what I'm about to describe.
I had to hang an obscenely heavy mirror in my dining room. It's a huge,
thick piece of glass fastened to an ornate wooden backing with mirror
clips.
It needed to be in the center of the wall, needed to span as many studs as
possible, and had to be screwed behind the glass. The way I tackled that
was to lag screw two 2x3 strips so that they spanned three or four studs.
I did chin-ups on the strips a couple of times to prove to myself that they
could take the weight (the mirror weighs a lot, but I weigh more :) and
then I lag screwed the wooden backing to the strips in convenient places.
Put the glass on, and it's held up for years.
You could do the same kind of thing for a cabinet easily. If you have any
doubts about the weight, add it up and talk to your local building
inspector.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
"Swingman" <[email protected]> writes:
[...]
> I build both wall and base units, which must be attached to a wall, with at
> least an upper and lower 3/4" thick screw strip that sits flush between the
> back panel and back edge of the cabinet sides.
[...]
> Fastened thusly at the TOP screw strip, you can use just about any type of
> screw, drywall or otherwise in the lower screw strips and the cabinet will
> handle all the weight for which it was designed.
What is the use of the lower screw strip? The upper one bears the
weight, keeps the cabinit from falling. The lower would just keep it
from lifting off the wall, which it would have to do against gravity;
Most wall-hanging cabinets from furniture shops come with only the
upper mounting option...
--
Dr. Juergen Hannappel http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~hannappe
mailto:[email protected] Phone: +49 228 73 2447 FAX ... 7869
Physikalisches Institut der Uni Bonn Nussallee 12, D-53115 Bonn, Germany
CERN: Phone: +412276 76461 Fax: ..77930 Bat. 892-R-A13 CH-1211 Geneve 23
"Mannanan MacLir" <[email protected]> writes:
> I am building an oak cabinet, roughly 48 inches wide, 30 high, and 10 deep
> which will contain glassware. I want to wall mount this unit, and I was
> wondering if (normal) walls are up to the task, and what are the best means
> of anchoring it to the wall to have the best support. Any ideas?
You should specify what "normal" walls are. Wooden walls as in the
U.S. are quite different from the normal brick or concrete walls in
Europe, where they are certainly up to the task, IF you are able to
anchor the screws well. So first tell what kind of a wll you have.
--
Dr. Juergen Hannappel http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~hannappe
mailto:[email protected] Phone: +49 228 73 2447 FAX ... 7869
Physikalisches Institut der Uni Bonn Nussallee 12, D-53115 Bonn, Germany
CERN: Phone: +412276 76461 Fax: ..77930 Bat. 892-R-A13 CH-1211 Geneve 23