Fein Turbo II is rated at 58 decibles. The Shop Vac "Quiet Deluxe 6.5
HP" is rated at 82 decibels.
The rule of thumb I know is that 3 decibles corresponds to a doubling.
Thus the Shop Vac Quiet Deluxe 6.5 HP is 24 decibels louder, or 3 db +
3 db + ... + 3 db (8 times), or 2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2 = 2 to the 8'th power =
256 times louder.
Is that correct? If so, holy moly!
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > As you may know, decibels correspond to a logarithmic scale, and a +3dB
> > increase requires a doubling of the power to produce the sound. After a
> > bit
> > of looking, it seems that the perceived loudness is closer to being
> > proportional to the the dB rating. So, the Shop Vac would be perceived
to
> > be about 40% louder than the Fein. All of this is, of course, very
> > subjective as it depends on the person listening, the sound frequencies
> > involved, etc.
>
> And the wind chill factor. LOL
Must be an inside joke.
todd
In article <[email protected]>,
Never Enough Money <[email protected]> wrote:
>Fein Turbo II is rated at 58 decibles. The Shop Vac "Quiet Deluxe 6.5
>HP" is rated at 82 decibels.
>
>The rule of thumb I know is that 3 decibles corresponds to a doubling.
>Thus the Shop Vac Quiet Deluxe 6.5 HP is 24 decibels louder, or 3 db +
>3 db + ... + 3 db (8 times), or 2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2 = 2 to the 8'th power =
>256 times louder.
>
>Is that correct? If so, holy moly!
"yeah, *BUT*" applies.
first, "spelling counts" it is 'decibels', not decibles. regular
metric units -- a deci-bel ==> 1/10 of a 'bel' (which is a log10 scale)
3 decibels -- or "0.3 bel" roughly corresponds (actually 0.3020+ bel) to
a doubling of the actual power in the acoustic signal.
So, yes, the _energy_, or "power" in the noise from the shop vac is 256 times
higher than the Fein.
HOWEVER, the sensitivity of the human ear is _also_ more-or-less logarithmic,
with regard to the power of the audio signal it receives.
Thus the Shop Vac will "apparently sound" only about 8-10 times louder than
the Fein.
In article <[email protected]>,
LRod <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 1 Sep 2005 12:03:45 -0700, "Never Enough Money"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Fein Turbo II is rated at 58 decibles. The Shop Vac "Quiet Deluxe 6.5
>>HP" is rated at 82 decibels.
>>
>>The rule of thumb I know is that 3 decibles corresponds to a doubling.
>>Thus the Shop Vac Quiet Deluxe 6.5 HP is 24 decibels louder, or 3 db +
>>3 db + ... + 3 db (8 times), or 2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2 = 2 to the 8'th power =
>>256 times louder.
>>
>>Is that correct? If so, holy moly!
>
>As someone else pointed out, it's logarithmic, so your calculation
>isn't quite. An easier way to understand it is that 10 dB is actually
>10x, and the next 10 is a power of 10 (10^2=100). So what you have is
>20dB is x100, the next 3dB doubles that to 200, and the 1dB left over
>is a fraction of x2, so around 220 or so is the decimal equivalent of
>24dB.
24dB is a factor of 251.2+ according to my engineering calculator. :)
>It's those stray dB between 9 and 10 that messes your calculation up.
>9 dB is 8x, but 10 dB is 10x.
His calculation was closer than yours. <grin>
when you've got a number that is a multiple of 3dB, "doubling by 3s"
will get you very close to a 'correct' answer.
consider a factor of 30dB. 'doubling', 10 times gives you a factor of
1024x, where the 'accurate' value is 100x. 'error' is less than 2.5%.
At 60dB, the 'doubling' error is less thant 5%. on a factor of 'one million'.
"Good enough for -most- practical purposes." <grin>
In article <[email protected]>,
Robert Bonomi <[email protected]> wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Never Enough Money <[email protected]> wrote:
>>Fein Turbo II is rated at 58 decibles. The Shop Vac "Quiet Deluxe 6.5
>>HP" is rated at 82 decibels.
>>
>>The rule of thumb I know is that 3 decibles corresponds to a doubling.
>>Thus the Shop Vac Quiet Deluxe 6.5 HP is 24 decibels louder, or 3 db +
>>3 db + ... + 3 db (8 times), or 2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2 = 2 to the 8'th power =
>>256 times louder.
>>
>>Is that correct? If so, holy moly!
>
>"yeah, *BUT*" applies.
>
>first, "spelling counts" it is 'decibels', not decibles. regular
>metric units -- a deci-bel ==> 1/10 of a 'bel' (which is a log10 scale)
>
>3 decibels -- or "0.3 bel" roughly corresponds (actually 0.3020+ bel) to
argh! typo; make that .3010+ (.301029995663981+ for the finicky :)
>a doubling of the actual power in the acoustic signal.
>
>So, yes, the _energy_, or "power" in the noise from the shop vac is 256 times
>higher than the Fein.
>
>HOWEVER, the sensitivity of the human ear is _also_ more-or-less logarithmic,
>with regard to the power of the audio signal it receives.
>
>Thus the Shop Vac will "apparently sound" only about 8-10 times louder than
>the Fein.
Never Enough Money wrote:
> Fein Turbo II is rated at 58 decibles. The Shop Vac "Quiet Deluxe 6.5
> HP" is rated at 82 decibels.
>
> The rule of thumb I know is that 3 decibles corresponds to a doubling.
> Thus the Shop Vac Quiet Deluxe 6.5 HP is 24 decibels louder, or 3 db +
> 3 db + ... + 3 db (8 times), or 2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2 = 2 to the 8'th power =
> 256 times louder.
>
> Is that correct? If so, holy moly!
>
Probably. I've got a Fein. It's reasonably quiet for a shop vac. I've
owned Shop Vac's in the past and ended up mothballing them due to the
ear shattering noise. On a subjective basis I'd say the old Shop Vac
was about 25 times louder than the Fein.
Dave
"Never Enough Money" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Fein Turbo II is rated at 58 decibles. The Shop Vac "Quiet Deluxe 6.5
> HP" is rated at 82 decibels.
>
> The rule of thumb I know is that 3 decibles corresponds to a doubling.
> Thus the Shop Vac Quiet Deluxe 6.5 HP is 24 decibels louder, or 3 db +
> 3 db + ... + 3 db (8 times), or 2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2 = 2 to the 8'th power =
> 256 times louder.
>
> Is that correct? If so, holy moly!
As you may know, decibels correspond to a logarithmic scale, and a +3dB
increase requires a doubling of the power to produce the sound. After a bit
of looking, it seems that the perceived loudness is closer to being
proportional to the the dB rating. So, the Shop Vac would be perceived to
be about 40% louder than the Fein. All of this is, of course, very
subjective as it depends on the person listening, the sound frequencies
involved, etc.
todd
"Never Enough Money" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Fein Turbo II is rated at 58 decibles. The Shop Vac "Quiet Deluxe 6.5
> HP" is rated at 82 decibels.
>
> The rule of thumb I know is that 3 decibles corresponds to a doubling.
> Thus the Shop Vac Quiet Deluxe 6.5 HP is 24 decibels louder, or 3 db +
> 3 db + ... + 3 db (8 times), or 2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2 = 2 to the 8'th power =
> 256 times louder.
>
> Is that correct? If so, holy moly!
Yes. Then there's always the challenge of whether to believe the
manufacturer's claims. 58 db is incredibly quiet, but that is what the Fein
is known for.
Bob
Going from 58 db to 82 db in musical notation is equivalent to "ppp to fff",
or an orchestra playing about as soft as it can (ppp) to as loud as it can
(fff). A big difference. Some reference levels are given at
http://www.coolmath.com/decibels1.htm. 58 db is awfully quiet.
Steve
"Never Enough Money" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Fein Turbo II is rated at 58 decibles. The Shop Vac "Quiet Deluxe 6.5
> HP" is rated at 82 decibels.
>
> The rule of thumb I know is that 3 decibles corresponds to a doubling.
> Thus the Shop Vac Quiet Deluxe 6.5 HP is 24 decibels louder, or 3 db +
> 3 db + ... + 3 db (8 times), or 2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2 = 2 to the 8'th power =
> 256 times louder.
>
> Is that correct? If so, holy moly!
>
"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> As someone else pointed out, it's logarithmic, so your calculation
> isn't quite. An easier way to understand it is that 10 dB is actually
> 10x, and the next 10 is a power of 10 (10^2=100). So what you have is
> 20dB is x100, the next 3dB doubles that to 200, and the 1dB left over
> is a fraction of x2, so around 220 or so is the decimal equivalent of
> 24dB.
>
> It's those stray dB between 9 and 10 that messes your calculation up.
> 9 dB is 8x, but 10 dB is 10x.
Now you had to go and analyze it and make me go check the math. Darn I hate
it when that happens. You had it right until that very last 1 db. A 1db
increase is a 1.26x increase. (200 * 1.26) = 251+
The formula for db is 10 * log (p1/p2). Its not a pure log function.
There's a 10x factor in there. There's a very cool webpage on this with
actual sound files at http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/dB.html.
Bob
"Never Enough Money" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Fein Turbo II is rated at 58 decibles. The Shop Vac "Quiet Deluxe 6.5
> HP" is rated at 82 decibels.
>
> The rule of thumb I know is that 3 decibles corresponds to a doubling.
> Thus the Shop Vac Quiet Deluxe 6.5 HP is 24 decibels louder, or 3 db +
> 3 db + ... + 3 db (8 times), or 2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2 = 2 to the 8'th power =
> 256 times louder.
>
> Is that correct? If so, holy moly!
Sort of. It is a logorithmic scale and you you would be correct to say that
the amplitue of the sound wave is about 256 (actually 240) times greater.
Does that mean that percieved loudness is that much greater?.... no probably
not as that's not really how human hearing (both the ear and brain) works.
It's king of hard to objectively quantify peception.
-Steve
"BillyBob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Never Enough Money" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Fein Turbo II is rated at 58 decibles. The Shop Vac "Quiet Deluxe 6.5
> > HP" is rated at 82 decibels.
> >
> > The rule of thumb I know is that 3 decibles corresponds to a doubling.
> > Thus the Shop Vac Quiet Deluxe 6.5 HP is 24 decibels louder, or 3 db +
> > 3 db + ... + 3 db (8 times), or 2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2 = 2 to the 8'th power =
> > 256 times louder.
> >
> > Is that correct? If so, holy moly!
>
> Yes. Then there's always the challenge of whether to believe the
> manufacturer's claims. 58 db is incredibly quiet, but that is what the
Fein
> is known for.
>
> Bob
I have the turboIII. It is bearable - unlike any other shopvac I've ever
used.
Though it does make the biscuit cutter howl when it is hooked up to it.
j
> > I have the turboIII. It is bearable - unlike any other shopvac I've ever
> > used.
> > Though it does make the biscuit cutter howl when it is hooked up to it.
> >
> > j
> >
> >
> the noise from the BC is a function of the design of said BC; not the
> fault of the vac.
>
> Dave
Naturally. That is why I mentioned that the BC was howling, not the vac.
With the exception of the howl, using them together is great.
The autoswitch is a very nice feature.
j
On 1 Sep 2005 12:03:45 -0700, "Never Enough Money"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Fein Turbo II is rated at 58 decibles. The Shop Vac "Quiet Deluxe 6.5
>HP" is rated at 82 decibels.
>
>The rule of thumb I know is that 3 decibles corresponds to a doubling.
>Thus the Shop Vac Quiet Deluxe 6.5 HP is 24 decibels louder, or 3 db +
>3 db + ... + 3 db (8 times), or 2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2 = 2 to the 8'th power =
>256 times louder.
>
>Is that correct? If so, holy moly!
As someone else pointed out, it's logarithmic, so your calculation
isn't quite. An easier way to understand it is that 10 dB is actually
10x, and the next 10 is a power of 10 (10^2=100). So what you have is
20dB is x100, the next 3dB doubles that to 200, and the 1dB left over
is a fraction of x2, so around 220 or so is the decimal equivalent of
24dB.
It's those stray dB between 9 and 10 that messes your calculation up.
9 dB is 8x, but 10 dB is 10x.
--
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997
While it may be the design of the biscuit cutter, it very well may be caused
by the vaccuum. When you start pumping ~100cfm (my ShopVac claims 185 on
it, IIRC) through whatever ducts and ports are on the biscuit cutter, it may
whistle or howl a bit.
Clint
"David" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>J wrote:
>
>> "BillyBob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>"Never Enough Money" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>>Fein Turbo II is rated at 58 decibles. The Shop Vac "Quiet Deluxe 6.5
>>>>HP" is rated at 82 decibels.
>>>>
>>>>The rule of thumb I know is that 3 decibles corresponds to a doubling.
>>>>Thus the Shop Vac Quiet Deluxe 6.5 HP is 24 decibels louder, or 3 db +
>>>>3 db + ... + 3 db (8 times), or 2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2 = 2 to the 8'th power =
>>>>256 times louder.
>>>>
>>>>Is that correct? If so, holy moly!
>>>
>>>Yes. Then there's always the challenge of whether to believe the
>>>manufacturer's claims. 58 db is incredibly quiet, but that is what the
>>
>> Fein
>>
>>>is known for.
>>>
>>>Bob
>>
>>
>> I have the turboIII. It is bearable - unlike any other shopvac I've ever
>> used.
>> Though it does make the biscuit cutter howl when it is hooked up to it.
>>
>> j
>>
>>
> the noise from the BC is a function of the design of said BC; not the
> fault of the vac.
>
> Dave
On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 01:16:55 GMT, "BillyBob"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>> As someone else pointed out, it's logarithmic, so your calculation
>> isn't quite. An easier way to understand it is that 10 dB is actually
>> 10x, and the next 10 is a power of 10 (10^2=100). So what you have is
>> 20dB is x100, the next 3dB doubles that to 200, and the 1dB left over
>> is a fraction of x2, so around 220 or so is the decimal equivalent of
>> 24dB.
>>
>> It's those stray dB between 9 and 10 that messes your calculation up.
>> 9 dB is 8x, but 10 dB is 10x.
>
>Now you had to go and analyze it and make me go check the math. Darn I hate
>it when that happens. You had it right until that very last 1 db. A 1db
>increase is a 1.26x increase. (200 * 1.26) = 251+
>
>The formula for db is 10 * log (p1/p2). Its not a pure log function.
>There's a 10x factor in there. There's a very cool webpage on this with
>actual sound files at http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/dB.html.
Thanks. 1 dB always did give me trouble. Leave it to someone named
BillyBob to square me away. Would have been perfect if you were named
Bubba.
--
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997
J wrote:
> "BillyBob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>"Never Enough Money" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>Fein Turbo II is rated at 58 decibles. The Shop Vac "Quiet Deluxe 6.5
>>>HP" is rated at 82 decibels.
>>>
>>>The rule of thumb I know is that 3 decibles corresponds to a doubling.
>>>Thus the Shop Vac Quiet Deluxe 6.5 HP is 24 decibels louder, or 3 db +
>>>3 db + ... + 3 db (8 times), or 2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2 = 2 to the 8'th power =
>>>256 times louder.
>>>
>>>Is that correct? If so, holy moly!
>>
>>Yes. Then there's always the challenge of whether to believe the
>>manufacturer's claims. 58 db is incredibly quiet, but that is what the
>
> Fein
>
>>is known for.
>>
>>Bob
>
>
> I have the turboIII. It is bearable - unlike any other shopvac I've ever
> used.
> Though it does make the biscuit cutter howl when it is hooked up to it.
>
> j
>
>
the noise from the BC is a function of the design of said BC; not the
fault of the vac.
Dave
J wrote:
>>>I have the turboIII. It is bearable - unlike any other shopvac I've ever
>>>used.
>>>Though it does make the biscuit cutter howl when it is hooked up to it.
>>>
>>>j
>>>
>>>
>>
>>the noise from the BC is a function of the design of said BC; not the
>>fault of the vac.
>>
>>Dave
>
>
> Naturally. That is why I mentioned that the BC was howling, not the vac.
> With the exception of the howl, using them together is great.
> The autoswitch is a very nice feature.
>
> j
>
>
yeah, I love the autoswitch for constant on/off operations. beats
reaching for a remote or worse yet, a switch on the Fein.
Dave
Clint wrote:
> While it may be the design of the biscuit cutter, it very well may be caused
> by the vaccuum. When you start pumping ~100cfm (my ShopVac claims 185 on
> it, IIRC) through whatever ducts and ports are on the biscuit cutter, it may
> whistle or howl a bit.
>
> Clint
>
> "David" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>J wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"BillyBob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Never Enough Money" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Fein Turbo II is rated at 58 decibles. The Shop Vac "Quiet Deluxe 6.5
>>>>>HP" is rated at 82 decibels.
>>>>>
>>>>>The rule of thumb I know is that 3 decibles corresponds to a doubling.
>>>>>Thus the Shop Vac Quiet Deluxe 6.5 HP is 24 decibels louder, or 3 db +
>>>>>3 db + ... + 3 db (8 times), or 2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2 = 2 to the 8'th power =
>>>>>256 times louder.
>>>>>
>>>>>Is that correct? If so, holy moly!
>>>>
>>>>Yes. Then there's always the challenge of whether to believe the
>>>>manufacturer's claims. 58 db is incredibly quiet, but that is what the
>>>
>>>Fein
>>>
>>>
>>>>is known for.
>>>>
>>>>Bob
>>>
>>>
>>>I have the turboIII. It is bearable - unlike any other shopvac I've ever
>>>used.
>>>Though it does make the biscuit cutter howl when it is hooked up to it.
>>>
>>>j
>>>
>>>
>>
>>the noise from the BC is a function of the design of said BC; not the
>>fault of the vac.
>>
>>Dave
>
>
>
Absolutely. My PC ROS is so noisy when hooked up to the Fein that I
wear ear protection.
Dave
"Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> As you may know, decibels correspond to a logarithmic scale, and a +3dB
> increase requires a doubling of the power to produce the sound. After a
> bit
> of looking, it seems that the perceived loudness is closer to being
> proportional to the the dB rating. So, the Shop Vac would be perceived to
> be about 40% louder than the Fein. All of this is, of course, very
> subjective as it depends on the person listening, the sound frequencies
> involved, etc.
And the wind chill factor. LOL
"Todd Fatheree" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>> And the wind chill factor. LOL
>
> Must be an inside joke.
Yes, sorry absolutely and inside joke. There is a discussion about wind
chill and feels like on another thread here.