How do you build from plans?

On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 03:29:49 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>That doesn't surprise me. All the tech schools and colleges around here use
>AutoCAD so they have to train their 3D guys. The general business attitude
>around here is "we have a business to run, we don't have time to train
>anyone" then they complain about the lack of skilled workers.

Well, I can't be anything but appreciative of their chosen approach,
it worked for me! ;O) I've heard it hinted at in the past, but now
you've said what you have, I see it clearer.

It's really sad when those with enough power to change the larger
things are not able to see the bigger picture, don't matter where they
are or where they are not seeing it either!

Take Care,
Gnube
{too thick for linux}

In article <[email protected]>, McQualude
<[email protected]> wrote:

> I've never done it. Do you just cut everything to size per the parts list
> and then assemble it? Is it usually worth it? Does everything usually fit
> together correctly?
>
> I can see that for some things, it would be much easier to have plans. Do
> most of you follow the plan exactly or do you customize it, change things?
I consider the plans as a guide to the procedure and follow them step
by step, double checking any measurements as I go, there are variables
such as material thickness and what part of a line to cut that can
affect the given dimensions that may get one into trouble. ThIs way you
may not have it all glued together when you discover that you should
have put in that other piece first. DAMHIK
Frank C.

--
http://sawdustmaking.com

Try 3D. You'll never go back. I don't even do sheet metal flat anymore. Draw
3D and unfold it. I did do a sheet metal flat pattern on the drawing board
the other day. Nostalgia, you know, but for serious work, it's not even a
contender. You guys in the UK will catch up one of these days.
"Frank Shute" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 05:07:01 GMT, CW wrote:
> >
> > The only plans I use are drawn by me. The project is worked out in CAD
from
> > 3D model to 2D print. When I get to the shop, I just cut according to
plan
> > and assemble.
>
> I use 2D CAD (AutoCAD LT) to draw & dimension plans but then I studied
> engineering and am familiar with draughting and concepts such as
> projections & I find I can visualise an object from a 3rd angle
> projection or whatever. A book on engineering drawing practice is
> recommended if you take this approach and I'd recommend reading BS308
> (or ISO equivalent).
>
> CAD allows you to quickly change dimensions and iterate until you have
> got something that you are happy with.
>
> I may do several drawings and plots depending on how critical the
> dimensions are and how complicated the resulting piece is going to be.
> For example, I did about 12 drawings for a built-in desk that I made,
> but then the dimensions were fairly critical and I had to get it right
> if I wasn't going to waste a lot of time building and possibly a lot
> of timber in the process.
>
> I then pin the plots above my bench and work to them. If you're going
> to use CAD then you either want get yourself a >= A3 plotter or send
> the file(s) to a place that will plot out your drawings for you.
>
> I've found that as I've gained experience with woodworking, I no
> longer have to plot and plan every little thing - it's in my head.
>
> I recently bought a plan for a folding Adirondack chair - it cost me a
> fiver as opposed to possibly spending several hours drawing it myself.
> As I was building more than one of them I cut out the the components
> from the printed plan and glued them to some thin ply, drilled holes
> in all of them, so that I can thread a bit of string through them and
> hang them up on the workshop wall when they are not in use. This also
> of course means that your plan doesn't wear out and fall to bits after
> having done just a few chairs.
>
>
> --
>
> Frank
>

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 09:38:18 GMT, Unisaw A100 <[email protected]>
pixelated:

>> Do most of you follow the plan exactly or do you customize
>> it, change things?

>Yes.

Correct. ALL of us either follow the plan exactly or customize
them and change things.

"Be the change you want to see in the world." --Mahatma Gandhi
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
http://diversify.com Website Application Programming

"McQualude" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I've never done it. Do you just cut everything to size per the parts list
> and then assemble it? Is it usually worth it? Does everything usually fit
> together correctly?
>
> I can see that for some things, it would be much easier to have plans. Do
> most of you follow the plan exactly or do you customize it, change things?


Depends on the plan. Those plans that are more akin to Blueprints (well
thought-out, communicative, illustrative and fairly error-free) are quite
nice for a newbie. Usually everything fits quite well.

Those "plans" that show up as part of a 2 page article in a Gardening
magazine, usually require a lot of interpretation.

On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 20:34:06 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Try 3D. You'll never go back. I don't even do sheet metal flat anymore. Draw
>3D and unfold it. I did do a sheet metal flat pattern on the drawing board
>the other day. Nostalgia, you know, but for serious work, it's not even a
>contender.

> You guys in the UK will catch up one of these days.

Oi you! I resemble that remark ;O) I am in the UK, and when I was
doing 3D for reward, I got more work than I could ever handle from US
firms! (Mostly from Texas too, go figure! ;-) <shrug>


Take Care,
Gnube
{too thick for linux}

McQualude wrote:

> I can see that for some things, it would be much easier to have plans. Do
> most of you follow the plan exactly or do you customize it, change things?

I can't imagine trusting plans that much, personally. Oops, these
measurements were off, and I just wasted some big $$$ wood.

I haven't ever done it, come to think of it. I've looked at published
plans, have books of plans, but have never built anything from them. I
usually build from a sketch, and make things up as I go along, cutting each
part to fit. Plans for me are usually no more than vague inspiration.

But I'm not a real woodworker though. I've only built a couple of large
pieces. I mostly knock together little things like bird houses and simple
boxes.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
Confirmed post number: 16453 Approximate word count: 1645300
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

Never let what someone has put to paper cloud your good judgment. You
should build as you would without plans, substituting those on paper for the
ones in your head. Cutting all pieces that need the same dimension with a
single setup is fine - best way to go - but I check the fit and dimension
before I make final cuts, and that's against the piece, not the plans.

The thing with woodworking is to make things fit, cabinets may also have to
fit a gap, but even there they're made with parts that fit _them_ and fitted
to the place with shims and moldings.

"McQualude" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I've never done it. Do you just cut everything to size per the parts list
> and then assemble it? Is it usually worth it? Does everything usually fit
> together correctly?
>
> I can see that for some things, it would be much easier to have plans. Do
> most of you follow the plan exactly or do you customize it, change things?

I've noticed on DIY Wood Works, Dave Marks makes most of his curved pieces
out of MDF first and the trims the parts to the template with a router. I
never have tried it, but it sounds like a great idea, especially if you have
to make multiple parts, or plan on making it again in the future.

"Bubba" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In 1985 I built a 9-foot high break-arch corner china cabinet with a
> cockleshell insert. Parts of the plans had been published in Fine
> Woodworking. Detailed plans were published in a book called "Masterpiece
> Furniture Making".
>
>
>
> I was amazed at the number of small errors that found their way into the
> plans.
>
>
>
> Since then, I've mostly designed my own stuff and wouldn't think of
starting
> a project without drawing a to-scale layout of the components. This is an
> enormous help in laying out the pieces for the most efficient recovery of
> the components from the smallest amount of material.
>
>
>
> Several years ago, I built a pair of Queen Anne side chairs to fill in a
> set of 4 antiques that my wife acquired somewhere. In this case, since
most
> of the parts making up the legs, sides and back were curved, I made
> full-scale templates from thin sheets of veneer.
>
>
>
> Something you might want to check out is the idea of using "Story Sticks".
> This is particularly useful in measuring and cutting pieces for cabinetry
or
> carcases. Fine Woodworking has an on-line index and articles on this can
be
> pulled up
>
>
> "McQualude" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > I've never done it. Do you just cut everything to size per the parts
list
> > and then assemble it? Is it usually worth it? Does everything usually
fit
> > together correctly?
> >
> > I can see that for some things, it would be much easier to have plans.
Do
> > most of you follow the plan exactly or do you customize it, change
things?
> > --
> > McQualude
>
>
>

McQualude wrote:
> I've never done it. Do you just cut everything to size per the parts list
> and then assemble it? Is it usually worth it? Does everything usually fit
> together correctly?

So far, that's pretty much all I've done...follow the plans. Which
is part of the reason I still consider myself a beginner.

I've built from plans in ShopNotes and WoodSmith...everything has
fit perfectly (except when I don't follow the directions...).

************************************
Chris Merrill
[email protected]
(remove the ZZZ to contact me)
************************************

Unix is a bit of a problem. If you want to go full 3D for free ( on
Windows), try Prodesktop Express. It is basically a light version of Pro
Engineer. For plotting, standard A size will suffice for most home projects.
If you need anything bigger (full size templates, ect), you can print the
drawing on multiple sheets with index marks for alignment. Another way to go
is print to PDF (there is also excellent free software for this) and take it
to a print shop. You can have a lot of prints done for the price of a
plotter. Go here for Prodesktop Express:
http://www.ptc.com/products/desktop/express/license.htm


"Frank Shute" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 20:34:06 GMT, CW wrote:
> >
> > Try 3D. You'll never go back. I don't even do sheet metal flat anymore.
Draw
> > 3D and unfold it. I did do a sheet metal flat pattern on the drawing
board
> > the other day. Nostalgia, you know, but for serious work, it's not even
a
> > contender. You guys in the UK will catch up one of these days.
>
> I know us UK blokes are a bit backward, we're also a bit poor (we're
> kept that way by our American masters) ;)
>
> I'd like to get a 3D program for unix but then we are talking
> megabucks. Turbocad looks interesting but I'd probably invest in a
> large plotter before I invested in any software.
>
> I use free software (FreeBSD) but CAD is one of the few areas where my
> choices are limited.
>
> --
>
> Frank
>

Unisaw A100 spaketh...

> McQualude wrote:
>>Is it usually worth it?
>
> Yes. Until you can build it out of your head there's really
> no other way. Even when you get better you'll find that
> you'll have "plans" of some form or another.

Actually I've built everything out of my head, but I have to stop and think
a lot, nothing wrong with thinking, but I figure it slows me down. So I was
thinking of trying some plans.

>>Does everything usually fit together correctly?
>
> No and sometimes yes. Wooddorking is a process of set ups,

That's what I figured. That's one reason I've never used plans.

Building out of my head, I've always built from the outside - in. The
dimensions just seem to fall into place that way.

Thanks for the input.
--
McQualude

tnfkajs spaketh...

> "McQualude" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> Does everything usually fit together correctly?

> Depends on the plan. Those plans that are more akin to Blueprints
> (well thought-out, communicative, illustrative and fairly error-free)
> are quite nice for a newbie. Usually everything fits quite well.
>
> Those "plans" that show up as part of a 2 page article in a Gardening
> magazine, usually require a lot of interpretation.

LOL! I was reading through the plans for a sideboard from Popular
Woodworking and the author warned not to go by the plans or cut list
because he had make 'adjustments' along the way. I thought, hell, they
might as well just printed more pictures!
--
McQualude

Edwin Pawlowski spaketh...

> I learned early on from this group not to completely trust plans. I do
> use them, but I don't cut to the cut list.

Yeah, that seems to be the concensus. Plans seem to be a waste of time
then. I've been working the dimensions out in my head, using plans wouldn't
be any different.

> Plans are good for odd shaped pieces, My freehand drawing sucks, so
> if a chair arm has a nice rounded section, I can accurately trace it
> and then cut.

That's really a pattern, which is a type of plan I suppose. My freehand
drawing sucks also.

--
McQualude

In 1985 I built a 9-foot high break-arch corner china cabinet with a
cockleshell insert. Parts of the plans had been published in Fine
Woodworking. Detailed plans were published in a book called "Masterpiece
Furniture Making".



I was amazed at the number of small errors that found their way into the
plans.



Since then, I've mostly designed my own stuff and wouldn't think of starting
a project without drawing a to-scale layout of the components. This is an
enormous help in laying out the pieces for the most efficient recovery of
the components from the smallest amount of material.



Several years ago, I built a pair of Queen Anne side chairs to fill in a
set of 4 antiques that my wife acquired somewhere. In this case, since most
of the parts making up the legs, sides and back were curved, I made
full-scale templates from thin sheets of veneer.



Something you might want to check out is the idea of using "Story Sticks".
This is particularly useful in measuring and cutting pieces for cabinetry or
carcases. Fine Woodworking has an on-line index and articles on this can be
pulled up


"McQualude" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I've never done it. Do you just cut everything to size per the parts list
> and then assemble it? Is it usually worth it? Does everything usually fit
> together correctly?
>
> I can see that for some things, it would be much easier to have plans. Do
> most of you follow the plan exactly or do you customize it, change things?
> --
> McQualude

"McQualude" writes:

> I've never done it. Do you just cut everything to size per the parts list
> and then assemble it? Is it usually worth it? Does everything usually fit
> together correctly?
<snip>

I've been told I couldn't find my way to the head with a drawing.

There is some merit to that observation.<G>

Best investment you will ever make is an 8x8 graph paper pad.

Use it to make what I call "paper dolls".

Scale pieces of paper cut to size representing every piece on the cut list.

You can freehand the drawings on the graph paper, then cut accurately to
size with a pair of scissors.

You would be amazed how easy it is to find mistakes in a set of plans.

HTH


--
Lew

S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland)
Visit: <http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett> for Pictures

brocpuffs wrote:

> For instance, "should this piece fit this way or that way?". If you
> haven't decided when you start, you may well get a piece that tries to
> fit both ways and so will not actually fit in ANY way!

I'm thinking of all the bird houses and whatnot I've cobbled together that
have extra holes from where I drilled the holes into the wrong faces of the
boards. The pieces would fit one way, but I drilled the holes as though I
were going to attach them the other way. More than once even.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
Confirmed post number: 16512 Approximate word count: 495360
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 05:59:06 GMT, CW wrote:
>
> Unix is a bit of a problem. If you want to go full 3D for free ( on
> Windows), try Prodesktop Express. It is basically a light version of Pro
> Engineer. For plotting, standard A size will suffice for most home projects.
> If you need anything bigger (full size templates, ect), you can print the
> drawing on multiple sheets with index marks for alignment. Another way to go
> is print to PDF (there is also excellent free software for this) and take it
> to a print shop. You can have a lot of prints done for the price of a
> plotter. Go here for Prodesktop Express:
> http://www.ptc.com/products/desktop/express/license.htm
>

Great thanks a lot, I'll have a look at it. I'd be quite happy with
something fairly basic but not as basic as AutoCAD LT - no extrusions
:(

I've got some Windows software which allows me to print postscript to
file & converting that to PDF is trivial. I suppose taking a file to a
printshop is going to be cheaper than buying an A0 plotter!

I've got an A3 pen plotter which fits my needs most of the time but
occasionally it would be nice to plot some stuff full-size for
templates.

--

Frank

McQualude wrote:
>I've never done it. Do you just cut everything to size per the parts list
>and then assemble it?

You could be best off using the plans as a road map. First
off make a copy of the cutting list (cut bill/stock bill)
and isolate the major components. Start by checking the
math on a few things like the major components. In the case
of a cabinet these would be the sides, top, bottom and back.
If it all works out cut and assemble them.

For trims I bill everything out long and cut to length based
on the actual cabinet size as it was eventually built.

>Is it usually worth it?

Yes. Until you can build it out of your head there's really
no other way. Even when you get better you'll find that
you'll have "plans" of some form or another.

>Does everything usually fit together correctly?

No and sometimes yes. Wooddorking is a process of set ups,
cutting and assembling. Let's say you're cutting tops and
bottoms. These are usually the same length so you'll want
to cut them at the same time with the same set ups. Let's
say you're 1/32" off. No big deal. Now let's say you have
five cabinets ganged together and each of them is 1/32" off.
What you have is an accumulated error. Still no big deal
unless you went and cut all your trims at one time to a size
that wasn't 1/32" too big.

>I can see that for some things, it would be much easier to have plans. Do
>most of you follow the plan exactly or do you customize it, change things?

Yes.

UA100

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 05:07:01 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>The only plans I use are drawn by me. The project is worked out in CAD from
>3D model to 2D print. When I get to the shop, I just cut according to plan
>and assemble.

Have to agree on that one, I am adequate when it comes to 3d work, but
a total novice with wood. I did my first "project" as you described,
and it actually worked out as I had intended. I got two doors about
identical to cover a hole in the wall where a plumber HAD to have
access, regardless of anyone else's view on the desirability of it
all!

OK, I'll grant you I had some luck too; I spec'ed a certain bit of
cross batten was to be 93mm in length and sure enough it was when I
finished. However I also got carried away with the brand new circular
saw, and I got lucky in that the first one was fine, but then common
sense reigned/dawned/tapped_me_on_the_shoulder and I cut the second
set using my old hand mitre cheapy.

I'd got keenitis, I had all but forgotten that a new tool does not
HAVE to be Tool Choice Of The Week! ;O) I got really lucky there!
Can't imagine I'd have made number two door exactly the same size with
a circular which I'd only used for exactly 5 cuts before!

And before anyone tries to be helpful (!) Of course I had not cut out
all the stuff for the pair out at the same time, I'm a Gnube right, I
got a fine tradition of being a newbie to uphold here, can't go doing
repeatable stuff yet, has to be avoided at all costs for the first
year at least, it's in the rules!! ;O)

Anyways, if CAD got me there, it can get /anyone/ there! ;O)

Take Care,
Gnube
I don't want to win the lottery I just want to win a barn full of seasoned timber! ;O)

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 05:07:01 GMT, CW wrote:
>
> The only plans I use are drawn by me. The project is worked out in CAD from
> 3D model to 2D print. When I get to the shop, I just cut according to plan
> and assemble.

I use 2D CAD (AutoCAD LT) to draw & dimension plans but then I studied
engineering and am familiar with draughting and concepts such as
projections & I find I can visualise an object from a 3rd angle
projection or whatever. A book on engineering drawing practice is
recommended if you take this approach and I'd recommend reading BS308
(or ISO equivalent).

CAD allows you to quickly change dimensions and iterate until you have
got something that you are happy with.

I may do several drawings and plots depending on how critical the
dimensions are and how complicated the resulting piece is going to be.
For example, I did about 12 drawings for a built-in desk that I made,
but then the dimensions were fairly critical and I had to get it right
if I wasn't going to waste a lot of time building and possibly a lot
of timber in the process.

I then pin the plots above my bench and work to them. If you're going
to use CAD then you either want get yourself a >= A3 plotter or send
the file(s) to a place that will plot out your drawings for you.

I've found that as I've gained experience with woodworking, I no
longer have to plot and plan every little thing - it's in my head.

I recently bought a plan for a folding Adirondack chair - it cost me a
fiver as opposed to possibly spending several hours drawing it myself.
As I was building more than one of them I cut out the the components
from the printed plan and glued them to some thin ply, drilled holes
in all of them, so that I can thread a bit of string through them and
hang them up on the workshop wall when they are not in use. This also
of course means that your plan doesn't wear out and fall to bits after
having done just a few chairs.


--

Frank

On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 20:34:06 GMT, CW wrote:
>
> Try 3D. You'll never go back. I don't even do sheet metal flat anymore. Draw
> 3D and unfold it. I did do a sheet metal flat pattern on the drawing board
> the other day. Nostalgia, you know, but for serious work, it's not even a
> contender. You guys in the UK will catch up one of these days.

I know us UK blokes are a bit backward, we're also a bit poor (we're
kept that way by our American masters) ;)

I'd like to get a 3D program for unix but then we are talking
megabucks. Turbocad looks interesting but I'd probably invest in a
large plotter before I invested in any software.

I use free software (FreeBSD) but CAD is one of the few areas where my
choices are limited.

--

Frank