I'm copying both the metalworking and woodworking groups. I hope this
doesn't piss anyone off too badly. I believe the answers and knowledge that
may get passed around is mutually beneficial. Thus the breach in newsgroup
etiquette.
Anyhow... I've got a unique problem.
I sell a product that acts basically like an air cylinder. It has a tube
(hard chrome plated inside for you metal guys) with a quill (hard chrome
plated also) and some rubber seals inside.
One of my customers is a medical giant. They can't have ANY type of
lubricant in the cylinder as they run the drill or the FDA comes in and
gives them hell.
So... They basically super-dry their air with a desiccant and dryers so
that it is down to 0.01% humidity or less and use absolutely no oil
whatsoever inside the unit.
After 2-3 years of running like this, the unit doesn't stroke so well. The
seals are dried out and the cylinder, although still sealed properly, needs
up to 80 PSI air to stroke at all. Normally, they stroke at 15 PSI or so...
Anyone know of a lubricant that could be used that would not cause medical
(food grade or better maybe?) issues?
Can't use oil, grease, dry powder stuff, etc. Can't even use water...
I was thinking something like medical grade alcohol or acetone that
disappears all by itself if it gets to the atmosphere... But I bet there is
a better option.
Thoughts?
As a side note, the tube and quill will stroke millions of times with no
lube without wearing out. We've done long-term tests... The tolerances
between quill and tube are around 0.001" and the quill diameter is around 3"
if it matters.
Having just read a bunch of posts about air tools and proper lube made me
think that there might be an expert in here with some ideas...
Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/autodrill
V8013-R
"Joe AutoDrill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:%[email protected]...
> I'm copying both the metalworking and woodworking groups. I hope this
> doesn't piss anyone off too badly. I believe the answers and knowledge
> that may get passed around is mutually beneficial. Thus the breach in
> newsgroup etiquette.
>
> Anyhow... I've got a unique problem.
>
> I sell a product that acts basically like an air cylinder. It has a tube
> (hard chrome plated inside for you metal guys) with a quill (hard chrome
> plated also) and some rubber seals inside.
>
> One of my customers is a medical giant. They can't have ANY type of
> lubricant in the cylinder as they run the drill or the FDA comes in and
> gives them hell.
>
> So... They basically super-dry their air with a desiccant and dryers so
> that it is down to 0.01% humidity or less and use absolutely no oil
> whatsoever inside the unit.
>
> After 2-3 years of running like this, the unit doesn't stroke so well.
> The seals are dried out and the cylinder, although still sealed properly,
> needs up to 80 PSI air to stroke at all. Normally, they stroke at 15 PSI
> or so...
>
> Anyone know of a lubricant that could be used that would not cause medical
> (food grade or better maybe?) issues?
>
> Can't use oil, grease, dry powder stuff, etc. Can't even use water...
>
> I was thinking something like medical grade alcohol or acetone that
> disappears all by itself if it gets to the atmosphere... But I bet there
> is a better option.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> As a side note, the tube and quill will stroke millions of times with no
> lube without wearing out. We've done long-term tests... The tolerances
> between quill and tube are around 0.001" and the quill diameter is around
> 3" if it matters.
>
> Having just read a bunch of posts about air tools and proper lube made me
> think that there might be an expert in here with some ideas...
>
> Regards,
> Joe Agro, Jr.
> (800) 871-5022
> 01.908.542.0244
> Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
> Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
> Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
> Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
> VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/autodrill
>
> V8013-R
The FDA allows food grade silicone in the main valve of Rainsoft water
softeners. I've been using it for about 15 years.
Max
On Jul 15, 4:20=A0pm, Chris Friesen <[email protected]> wrote:
> nhurst wrote:
> > I was under the impression that teflon is carcinogenic if ingested,
> > which is why you should toss pots and pans with flaking teflon on
> > them.
>
> Don't think so, they use it for surgical purposes. =A0I believe the
> problem with flaking teflon on pots is that it exposes you to bare
> aluminum underneath which has been associated (though not definitively)
> with Alzheimer's. =A0That said, plenty of restaurants cook on bare alumin=
um.
Teflon breaks down above 500 degrees, and I'm sure that some of the
polymer is already loosening it's bonds before that. Pretty much all
monomers are carcinogenic. Then again, so is sunlight, and probably
jogging.
R
"FrozenNorth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> http://www.canica.com/index.asp
>
> A medical tool company, operated by Rob Lee's father IIRC (of Lee Valley
> Tool Fame).
>
> I don't see anything directly related to your issue, but they do have
> engineers and such that are familiar with surgical/medical equipment.
Another lead I'll check out. Thank you.
--
Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/autodrill
V8013-R
On Wed, 15 Jul 2009 14:26:47 -0400, "Joe AutoDrill"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I'm copying both the metalworking and woodworking groups. I hope this
>doesn't piss anyone off too badly. I believe the answers and knowledge that
>may get passed around is mutually beneficial. Thus the breach in newsgroup
>etiquette.
>
>Anyhow... I've got a unique problem.
>
>I sell a product that acts basically like an air cylinder. It has a tube
>(hard chrome plated inside for you metal guys) with a quill (hard chrome
>plated also) and some rubber seals inside.
>
>One of my customers is a medical giant. They can't have ANY type of
>lubricant in the cylinder as they run the drill or the FDA comes in and
>gives them hell.
>
>So... They basically super-dry their air with a desiccant and dryers so
>that it is down to 0.01% humidity or less and use absolutely no oil
>whatsoever inside the unit.
>
>After 2-3 years of running like this, the unit doesn't stroke so well. The
>seals are dried out and the cylinder, although still sealed properly, needs
>up to 80 PSI air to stroke at all. Normally, they stroke at 15 PSI or so...
>
>Anyone know of a lubricant that could be used that would not cause medical
>(food grade or better maybe?) issues?
>
>Can't use oil, grease, dry powder stuff, etc. Can't even use water...
>
>I was thinking something like medical grade alcohol or acetone that
>disappears all by itself if it gets to the atmosphere... But I bet there is
>a better option.
>
>Thoughts?
>
>As a side note, the tube and quill will stroke millions of times with no
>lube without wearing out. We've done long-term tests... The tolerances
>between quill and tube are around 0.001" and the quill diameter is around 3"
>if it matters.
>
>Having just read a bunch of posts about air tools and proper lube made me
>think that there might be an expert in here with some ideas...
>
>Regards,
>Joe Agro, Jr.
>(800) 871-5022
>01.908.542.0244
>Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
>Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
>Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
>Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
>VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/autodrill
>
>V8013-R
>
>
Is the MTBF on this unit significantly less than other elements of the
system that have a similar, or greater replacement cost?
Regards,
Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
"Pete C." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Coiled" teflon backup washers are pretty standard items in pneumatic
> and hydraulic components and they can be coiled into a groove. The air
> pressure should push the coil together enough to minimize leakage.
>
> Also take a look at the V-ring seals on McMaster.com, they look like you
> could cut them and have minimal leakage as long as you stack them with
> the cuts located opposite each other as you stack them.
>
> Another possibility on McMaster.com is the "Spring loaded PTFE shaft
> seals" which may have enough play to let you fit them.
Who is this McMaster fellow? <grin>
I'll check it out shortly. Seem like good options. Thank you.
--
Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/autodrill
V8013-R
On Jul 15, 11:26=A0am, "Joe AutoDrill" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm copying both the metalworking and woodworking groups. =A0I hope this
> doesn't piss anyone off too badly. =A0I believe the answers and knowledge=
that
> may get passed around is mutually beneficial. =A0Thus the breach in newsg=
roup
> etiquette.
>
> Anyhow... =A0I've got a unique problem.
>
> I sell a product that acts basically like an air cylinder. =A0It has a tu=
be
> (hard chrome plated inside for you metal guys) with a quill (hard chrome
> plated also) and some rubber seals inside.
>
> One of my customers is a medical giant. =A0They can't have ANY type of
> lubricant in the cylinder as they run the drill or the FDA comes in and
> gives them hell.
>
> So... =A0They basically super-dry their air with a desiccant and dryers s=
o
> that it is down to 0.01% humidity or less and use absolutely no oil
> whatsoever inside the unit.
>
> After 2-3 years of running like this, the unit doesn't stroke so well. =
=A0The
> seals are dried out and the cylinder, although still sealed properly, nee=
ds
> up to 80 PSI air to stroke at all. =A0Normally, they stroke at 15 PSI or =
so...
>
> Anyone know of a lubricant that could be used that would not cause medica=
l
> (food grade or better maybe?) issues?
>
> Can't use oil, grease, dry powder stuff, etc. =A0Can't even use water...
>
> I was thinking something like medical grade alcohol or acetone that
> disappears all by itself if it gets to the atmosphere... =A0But I bet the=
re is
> a better option.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> As a side note, the tube and quill will stroke millions of times with no
> lube without wearing out. =A0We've done long-term tests... =A0The toleran=
ces
> between quill and tube are around 0.001" and the quill diameter is around=
3"
> if it matters.
>
> Having just read a bunch of posts about air tools and proper lube made me
> think that there might be an expert in here with some ideas...
>
> Regards,
> Joe Agro, Jr.
> (800) 871-5022
> 01.908.542.0244
> Automatic / Pneumatic Drills:http://www.AutoDrill.com
> Multiple Spindle Drills:http://www.Multi-Drill.com
> Production Tapping:http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
> Flagship Site:http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
> VIDEOS:http://www.youtube.com/user/autodrill
>
> V8013-R
Hi, Joe.
I understand your problem. We make cables on occation for a division
of Respironics. NOTHING can be changed or deviated in the
manufacturing procedure unless it is documented and approved by FDA.
Years go we wanted to replace a machined delrin bracket with an
injection molded bracket. No way!
My suggestion is to track down an engineer type, possibly chemical
engineer, at the company you get the rubber seals from. Perhaps they
can formulate a rubber seal material that is self lubricating. Or they
may have a slightly different material mix that will let the seals
last longer.
I bet an engineer would just love to work on your problem, but you
have to get to the actual manufacturer, not just a rep or distributor.
I hope the seals are US made. Not because foreign are inferior, but
because you can''t be sure you will ALWAYS get the same mix of raw
materials.
I a sure you will keep us informed.
Paul Drahn, President
Jodeco, Inc.
"Joe AutoDrill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> Having just read a bunch of posts about air tools and proper lube made me
> think that there might be an expert in here with some ideas...
Take a look through this lubricant guide.
http://www.anefforttorecoup.com/search.aspx?qt=lubricant
Joe AutoDrill wrote:
>
> I'm copying both the metalworking and woodworking groups. I hope this
> doesn't piss anyone off too badly. I believe the answers and knowledge that
> may get passed around is mutually beneficial. Thus the breach in newsgroup
> etiquette.
>
> Anyhow... I've got a unique problem.
>
> I sell a product that acts basically like an air cylinder. It has a tube
> (hard chrome plated inside for you metal guys) with a quill (hard chrome
> plated also) and some rubber seals inside.
>
> One of my customers is a medical giant. They can't have ANY type of
> lubricant in the cylinder as they run the drill or the FDA comes in and
> gives them hell.
>
> So... They basically super-dry their air with a desiccant and dryers so
> that it is down to 0.01% humidity or less and use absolutely no oil
> whatsoever inside the unit.
>
> After 2-3 years of running like this, the unit doesn't stroke so well. The
> seals are dried out and the cylinder, although still sealed properly, needs
> up to 80 PSI air to stroke at all. Normally, they stroke at 15 PSI or so...
>
> Anyone know of a lubricant that could be used that would not cause medical
> (food grade or better maybe?) issues?
>
> Can't use oil, grease, dry powder stuff, etc. Can't even use water...
>
> I was thinking something like medical grade alcohol or acetone that
> disappears all by itself if it gets to the atmosphere... But I bet there is
> a better option.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> As a side note, the tube and quill will stroke millions of times with no
> lube without wearing out. We've done long-term tests... The tolerances
> between quill and tube are around 0.001" and the quill diameter is around 3"
> if it matters.
>
> Having just read a bunch of posts about air tools and proper lube made me
> think that there might be an expert in here with some ideas...
I suspect you need to simply change the seal material. Possibly
something like a teflon seal would do the job, not require lubricant or
dry out.
"Ignoramus32217" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I see this as a win-win situation, an opportunity to sell them a new
> cylinder every couple of years, and charge them $100 per hour
> installing said cylinders.
Hear ye, hear ye, Merka at its finest!
But, donchaknow, who ultimately winds up footing the bill, and where does
sed bill get shoved?
Inyway, maybe a seal that itself wears/self-lubricates nicely, like mebbe
teflon, delrin, nylon, some composite?
Chemically speaking, anything with a lubricating viscosity is not likely to
evaporate quickly, and vice versa, and then you'd proly need fairly copious
amounts of it, as in a bath of sorts.
But, if contamination/biocompatibility is the Fed's real issue, mebbe a
joint-type synovial fluid would be acceptable? But the R&D, approval,
alladat would no doubt be prohibitive for you, unless the company is really
gung ho and will foot the bill.
My understanding is that AstroGlide and the new KY jellies are perty
bio-compatible, and if they work on the cylinder, mebbe you could skim some
off the top, and give the ole marriage a li'l boost, eh? Speaking of
cylinders'n'shit....
But sheeit, iffin they charge any more for this g-d astroglide/KY jelly
shit, I may just have to resort to foreplay..... goodgawd.....
--
Mr. PV'd
Mae West (yer fav CongressShill) to the Gangster (yer fav Lobbyist):
Hey, Big Boy, is that a wad (of cash) in yer pocket, or are you just
glad to see me??
Experiment on Homo Sapiens -- CEOs, Lawyers, and Politicians, in
particular.
Spare the animals.
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today.
www.theanimalrescuesite.com/
>
> i
>
Joe AutoDrill wrote:
>
> "Pete C." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > I suspect you need to simply change the seal material. Possibly
> > something like a teflon seal would do the job, not require lubricant or
> > dry out.
>
> I can't "stretch" the teflon seal over my quill to get it to the seal
> groove... I might be able tu cut it, but then they might complain about air
> leakage.
"Coiled" teflon backup washers are pretty standard items in pneumatic
and hydraulic components and they can be coiled into a groove. The air
pressure should push the coil together enough to minimize leakage.
Also take a look at the V-ring seals on McMaster.com, they look like you
could cut them and have minimal leakage as long as you stack them with
the cuts located opposite each other as you stack them.
Another possibility on McMaster.com is the "Spring loaded PTFE shaft
seals" which may have enough play to let you fit them.
Chris Friesen wrote:
>
> nhurst wrote:
>
> > I was under the impression that teflon is carcinogenic if ingested,
> > which is why you should toss pots and pans with flaking teflon on
> > them.
>
> Don't think so, they use it for surgical purposes. I believe the
> problem with flaking teflon on pots is that it exposes you to bare
> aluminum underneath which has been associated (though not definitively)
> with Alzheimer's.
The flaws in the one poor study that claimed any association between AL
and Alz have been thoroughly identified and the claimed association
disproven by many better controlled studies.
The only issue with teflon that has any shred of truth is toxicity of
vapors released from seriously overheated teflon (<500 degrees F) to
birds.
> That said, plenty of restaurants cook on bare aluminum.
Nearly all restaurants cook in basic AL cookware.
"Pete C." <[email protected]> writes:
>> That said, plenty of restaurants cook on bare aluminum.
>
>Nearly all restaurants cook in basic AL cookware.
I was under the impression that there was a thin layer of
stainless steel over the AL core (to avoid staining, e.g. tomato sauce).
scott
Scott Lurndal wrote:
>
> "Pete C." <[email protected]> writes:
>
> >> That said, plenty of restaurants cook on bare aluminum.
> >
> >Nearly all restaurants cook in basic AL cookware.
>
> I was under the impression that there was a thin layer of
> stainless steel over the AL core (to avoid staining, e.g. tomato sauce).
No, plain AL commercial cookware is extremely common. Fancy multi layer
cookware is mostly for cosmetics and marketing to consumers.
On Jul 15, 2:04=A0pm, nhurst <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jul 15, 3:26=A0pm, Leon Fisk <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Wed, 15 Jul 2009 15:04:45 -0400, "Joe AutoDrill"
>
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >"Pete C." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > >news:[email protected]...
>
> > >> I suspect you need to simply change the seal material. Possibly
> > >> something like a teflon seal would do the job, not require lubricant=
or
> > >> dry out.
>
> > >I can't "stretch" the teflon seal over my quill to get it to the seal
> > >groove... =A0I might be able tu cut it, but then they might complain a=
bout air
> > >leakage.
>
> > Have you looked into what kind of seals they use in the
> > oiless air compressors? I understood that it was some sort
> > of teflon seal. Maybe you could duplicate whatever they are
> > doing...
>
> > --
> > Leon Fisk
> > Grand Rapids =A0MI/Zone 5b
> > Remove no.spam for email
>
> I just replaced the piston and sleeve on my oiless air compressor last
> week. The seal is clamped between the head of the cylinder and held in
> place by a screw. The teflon is just a ring that seals against the
> sleeve and slides back and forth.
>
> I was under the impression that teflon is carcinogenic if ingested,
> which is why you should toss pots and pans with flaking teflon on
> them.
>
> -Nathan- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Can't let that one by. Teflon is basically inert, including
biologically, at room tempertures and you have to heat it quite a bit
to get it to decompose. To glue it, the teflon surface has to be
chemically treated to turn it into something not-teflon so the glue
will stick. I've not heard about having to toss non-stick cookware
that's had the surface damaged, probably happens anyway because it's a
pain to use that way. The carcinogenic part is the chemicals used to
make and attach the coating, not the coating itself. Just had a green
spasm in the press about that in the last few months. A lot of
current cookware is now silicone coated, just waiting for somebody to
find a problem with THAT.
Stan
Some random thoughts: Since you can't stretch the seal to get it into the
groove, how about unscrewing the end of the piston to expose the groove?
I once toured a tea-bag factory, and they were using a special non-toxic
lubricant on the staple wire (holding the string to the bag.)
How about using a teflon liner in the cylinder?
How about making the piston out of teflon or nylon?
> Is the MTBF on this unit significantly less than other elements of the
> system that have a similar, or greater replacement cost?
Unknown.
Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/autodrill
V8013-R
On Jul 15, 3:26=A0pm, Leon Fisk <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Jul 2009 15:04:45 -0400, "Joe AutoDrill"
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >"Pete C." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
>
> >> I suspect you need to simply change the seal material. Possibly
> >> something like a teflon seal would do the job, not require lubricant o=
r
> >> dry out.
>
> >I can't "stretch" the teflon seal over my quill to get it to the seal
> >groove... =A0I might be able tu cut it, but then they might complain abo=
ut air
> >leakage.
>
> Have you looked into what kind of seals they use in the
> oiless air compressors? I understood that it was some sort
> of teflon seal. Maybe you could duplicate whatever they are
> doing...
>
> --
> Leon Fisk
> Grand Rapids =A0MI/Zone 5b
> Remove no.spam for email
I just replaced the piston and sleeve on my oiless air compressor last
week. The seal is clamped between the head of the cylinder and held in
place by a screw. The teflon is just a ring that seals against the
sleeve and slides back and forth.
I was under the impression that teflon is carcinogenic if ingested,
which is why you should toss pots and pans with flaking teflon on
them.
-Nathan
There are many food grade lubricants. Here is one:
http://www.schaefferoil.com/food_grade.html
--
______________________________
Keep the whole world singing . . . .
DanG (remove the sevens)
[email protected]
"Joe AutoDrill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:%[email protected]...
> I'm copying both the metalworking and woodworking groups. I
> hope this doesn't piss anyone off too badly. I believe the
> answers and knowledge that may get passed around is mutually
> beneficial. Thus the breach in newsgroup etiquette.
>
> Anyhow... I've got a unique problem.
>
> I sell a product that acts basically like an air cylinder. It
> has a tube (hard chrome plated inside for you metal guys) with a
> quill (hard chrome plated also) and some rubber seals inside.
>
> One of my customers is a medical giant. They can't have ANY
> type of lubricant in the cylinder as they run the drill or the
> FDA comes in and gives them hell.
>
> So... They basically super-dry their air with a desiccant and
> dryers so that it is down to 0.01% humidity or less and use
> absolutely no oil whatsoever inside the unit.
>
> After 2-3 years of running like this, the unit doesn't stroke so
> well. The seals are dried out and the cylinder, although still
> sealed properly, needs up to 80 PSI air to stroke at all.
> Normally, they stroke at 15 PSI or so...
>
> Anyone know of a lubricant that could be used that would not
> cause medical (food grade or better maybe?) issues?
>
> Can't use oil, grease, dry powder stuff, etc. Can't even use
> water...
>
> I was thinking something like medical grade alcohol or acetone
> that disappears all by itself if it gets to the atmosphere...
> But I bet there is a better option.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> As a side note, the tube and quill will stroke millions of times
> with no lube without wearing out. We've done long-term tests...
> The tolerances between quill and tube are around 0.001" and the
> quill diameter is around 3" if it matters.
>
> Having just read a bunch of posts about air tools and proper
> lube made me think that there might be an expert in here with
> some ideas...
>
> Regards,
> Joe Agro, Jr.
> (800) 871-5022
> 01.908.542.0244
> Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
> Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
> Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
> Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
> VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/autodrill
>
> V8013-R
>
>
>
"Leo Lichtman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Some random thoughts: Since you can't stretch the seal to get it into the
> groove, how about unscrewing the end of the piston to expose the groove?
The quill is a solid piece of steel machined to spec. Nothing to
disassemble.
> I once toured a tea-bag factory, and they were using a special non-toxic
> lubricant on the staple wire (holding the string to the bag.)
Wonder if it was tea flavored? <grin>
> How about using a teflon liner in the cylinder?
Tolerances are too close. Liner would have to be 0.0005" or less or the
quill would have to be resized and re-chrome plated, then reground...
Redesigning the machine is not an option. It would be like saying to change
the engine on a car to solve a fuel problem.
> How about making the piston out of teflon or nylon?
Not nearly durable enough. Plus, it goes back to the redesigning the
machine thing.
If I can't find something to simply inject into the system that fixes the
problem, they will have to run dry.
Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/autodrill
V8013-R
On Wed, 15 Jul 2009 16:10:48 -0400, "Joe AutoDrill"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> Is the MTBF on this unit significantly less than other elements of the
>>>> system that have a similar, or greater replacement cost?
>>>
>>>Unknown.
>>
>> It would be interesting to know this.
>>
>> "Failure" could be an applied metric that references PSI needed to
>> cycle, or a specific cycling rate. At a certain point either of these
>> could become critical to the proper functioning of the system.
>>
>> If your unit has a MTBF that is in line with other elements of the
>> system, it would be reasonable to conclude that there is a MTBF for
>> the system as a whole and that the replacement of your unit would be
>> covered under general maintenance, making your product immune from
>> being singled out as the primary cause of system failure.
>
>Not a concern. They are happy with the unit and are even happy sending it
>back to us for rebuilds regularly... But I always look for a bettr answer
>for my customers. No need to shaft them if there is a simple answer out
>there someplace. I sell enough untis that rebuilds don't make a difference
>between cold cereal and steak for dinner.
I think that you have an honorable intent, Joe, and I won't belabor my
point beyond this post.
However, if the system has a MTBF and, if your unit is overly
engineered, or overly manufactured, making it the most costly part,
that might outlive the MTBF by many times - I don't think that you are
doing anyone a favor.
There are mission critical systems and mission critical components of
those systems.
If your component is going to get tossed at a thousand hours, and you
made it to last ten thousand hours, at a cost of fifty percent more
than one that would last a thousand hours - I don't think that you are
shafting the customer by staying with a unit that lasts a thousand
hours.
As always,
YMMV
Regards,
Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
On Jul 15, 7:26=A0pm, "Joe AutoDrill" <[email protected]> wrote:
> After 2-3 years of running like this, the unit doesn't stroke so well. =
=A0The
> seals are dried out and the cylinder, although still sealed properly, nee=
ds
> up to 80 PSI air to stroke at all. =A0Normally, they stroke at 15 PSI or =
so...
>
> Anyone know of a lubricant that could be used that would not cause medica=
l
> (food grade or better maybe?) issues?
>
> Regards,
> Joe Agro, Jr.
> (800) 871-5022
> 01.908.542.0244
> Automatic / Pneumatic Drills:http://www.AutoDrill.com
> Multiple Spindle Drills:http://www.Multi-Drill.com
> Production Tapping:http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
> Flagship Site:http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
> VIDEOS:http://www.youtube.com/user/autodrill
>
> V8013-R
Is it possible that the problem with the seals is that the surface of
the seal has oxidized? If so using Nitrogen ( cheaper than Argon )
might be the answer.
You might also check with Exxon Mobile ( I consider them as world
leaders in Lubes ) for food grade lubricants. Their best worm gear
lube is a food grade synthetic.
Dan
"Bob AZ" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>>
>> Having just read a bunch of posts about air tools and proper lube made me
>> think that there might be an expert in here with some ideas...
>>
>
> Joe
>
> There is a product called Surgical Grease. Hospitals keep it on hand.
> I suspect that it simply is a good grease that is sterliized.
>
> Bob AZ
>
IIRC, it also will not burn. Important for O2 fittings.
> OK, stupid question time--is there any way that for this specific
> application you could use an O-ring either directly or with a machined
> adapter?
>
> If so, then that opens up a lot of choices.
I don't think so... But it is certainly one of the things I'm thinking
about. It would have to be a pretty serious O-Ring to work in the existing
groove... And then the tolerances are so tight between teh quill/piston and
the cylinder wall (0.001" or so...) that a cup seal, which expands is
usually more efficient. An O-Ring might squeeze in there but cause too much
resistance even if it were a special substance.
--
Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/autodrill
V8013-R
Joe AutoDrill wrote:
> "Pete C." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> I suspect you need to simply change the seal material. Possibly
>> something like a teflon seal would do the job, not require lubricant or
>> dry out.
>
> I can't "stretch" the teflon seal over my quill to get it to the seal
> groove... I might be able tu cut it, but then they might complain about air
> leakage.
You make a helical slit in the seal. When stuffed in the bore, and
constrained by the groove in the ram, the tapered ends of the seal press
together. I'm sure there is a fixture or tool to do this, but I have no
idea what it would look like. But, custom seals like this are a fairly
common device, so there must be a standard tool to cut the ends.
Jon
Joe AutoDrill wrote:
> I'm copying both the metalworking and woodworking groups. I hope this
> doesn't piss anyone off too badly. I believe the answers and knowledge that
> may get passed around is mutually beneficial. Thus the breach in newsgroup
> etiquette.
>
> Anyhow... I've got a unique problem.
>
> I sell a product that acts basically like an air cylinder. It has a tube
> (hard chrome plated inside for you metal guys) with a quill (hard chrome
> plated also) and some rubber seals inside.
>
> One of my customers is a medical giant. They can't have ANY type of
> lubricant in the cylinder as they run the drill or the FDA comes in and
> gives them hell.
>
> So... They basically super-dry their air with a desiccant and dryers so
> that it is down to 0.01% humidity or less and use absolutely no oil
> whatsoever inside the unit.
>
> After 2-3 years of running like this, the unit doesn't stroke so well. The
> seals are dried out and the cylinder, although still sealed properly, needs
> up to 80 PSI air to stroke at all. Normally, they stroke at 15 PSI or so...
>
> Anyone know of a lubricant that could be used that would not cause medical
> (food grade or better maybe?) issues?
>
Why not use teflon rings that are a very close fit to the cylinder
walls? They will wear a bit over time, but if the cylinder is smooth,
they should still seal well enough to develop pressure, and not stick or
bind.
Jon
RicodJour wrote:
> On Jul 15, 4:20 pm, Chris Friesen <[email protected]> wrote:
>> nhurst wrote:
>>> I was under the impression that teflon is carcinogenic if ingested,
>>> which is why you should toss pots and pans with flaking teflon on
>>> them.
>> Don't think so, they use it for surgical purposes. I believe the
>> problem with flaking teflon on pots is that it exposes you to bare
>> aluminum underneath which has been associated (though not definitively)
>> with Alzheimer's. That said, plenty of restaurants cook on bare aluminum.
>
> Teflon breaks down above 500 degrees, and I'm sure that some of the
> polymer is already loosening it's bonds before that. Pretty much all
> monomers are carcinogenic. Then again, so is sunlight, and probably
> jogging.
Teflon begins to break down above 450 C, which is QUITE hot. And, it
can be subjected to 400 C operation for YEARS with no detectable change.
Jon
"Stu Fields" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Joe: I don't have a solution for you but I would like to say I like your
> attitude regarding improving your product without the user bitching. A
> rare attitude in today's business world. If I ever find myself in need of
> your type of products I will jump your direction.
Thanks Stu. The way I see it, it's the only proper way to do business
anyhow. I appreciate the compliment.
Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/autodrill
V8013-R
>>If I can't find something to simply inject into the system that fixes the
>>problem, they will have to run dry.
>
> Surely the FDA has a list somewhere of approved lubricants?
They sure do. However, given the nature of what they are doing, they need
to go to the FDA for approval every time they change something in the system
such as this... and their reluctance to do that is clear. If the machine
changes slightly, apparently the loophole exists that they don't need a new
approval.
I wish I knew the exact application... But for all I know, they're using
them on live patients knee cap replacement parts - in body already... I
simply don't know...
Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/autodrill
V8013-R
> how about synthetic blood plasma?
LOL. Maybe. Off to Body Depot in a few to get some to try it. :)
--
Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/autodrill
V8013-R
"Joe AutoDrill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>> Is the MTBF on this unit significantly less than other elements of the
>> system that have a similar, or greater replacement cost?
>
> Unknown.
>
> Regards,
> Joe Agro, Jr.
> (800) 871-5022
> 01.908.542.0244
> Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
> Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
> Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
> Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
> VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/autodrill
>
> V8013-R
Joe: I don't have a solution for you but I would like to say I like your
attitude regarding improving your product without the user bitching. A rare
attitude in today's business world. If I ever find myself in need of your
type of products I will jump your direction.
Stu Fields
>> Buna - Rubber. Standard Parker item. Nothing special. One cup seal
>> and one cup seal with wiper lip.
>
> If you're working with Parker best thing to do is give 'em a call--they're
> very big boys and they've got a bunch of formulations including some that
> are pretty exotic. Odds are that they'll have just the thing for your
> application.
Went to them before coming here. Because our application is in a closed
groove, there weren't many options. ...Or maybe I just got a bum rep. with
little knowledge of products. :)
--
Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/autodrill
V8013-R
"Joe AutoDrill" wrote:
> Anyhow... I've got a unique problem.
>
> I sell a product that acts basically like an air cylinder. It has a
> tube (hard chrome plated inside for you metal guys) with a quill
> (hard chrome plated also) and some rubber seals inside.
>
> One of my customers is a medical giant. They can't have ANY type of
> lubricant in the cylinder as they run the drill or the FDA comes in
> and gives them hell.
>
> So... They basically super-dry their air with a desiccant and
> dryers so that it is down to 0.01% humidity or less and use
> absolutely no oil whatsoever inside the unit.
>
> After 2-3 years of running like this, the unit doesn't stroke so
> well. The seals are dried out and the cylinder, although still
> sealed properly, needs up to 80 PSI air to stroke at all. Normally,
> they stroke at 15 PSI or so...
>
> Anyone know of a lubricant that could be used that would not cause
> medical (food grade or better maybe?) issues?
>
> Can't use oil, grease, dry powder stuff, etc. Can't even use
> water...
>
> I was thinking something like medical grade alcohol or acetone that
> disappears all by itself if it gets to the atmosphere... But I bet
> there is a better option.
Anybody looked at dry film lubricants?
Lew
"Ignoramus32217" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I see this as a win-win situation, an opportunity to sell them a new
> cylinder every couple of years, and charge them $100 per hour
> installing said cylinders.
Yep. And they've got a bunch of 'em... But I feel guilty workign that way
if a simple answer might exist.
I told the guy (joking around) to use "slippery air" like Argon or Nitrogen
and he thought I was serious. I felt bad about that too. :)
--
Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/autodrill
V8013-R
On Jul 15, 2:26=A0pm, "Joe AutoDrill" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm copying both the metalworking and woodworking groups. =A0I hope this
> doesn't piss anyone off too badly. =A0I believe the answers and knowledge=
that
> may get passed around is mutually beneficial. =A0Thus the breach in newsg=
roup
> etiquette.
You are breach-free in this instance. Cross-posting is preferable
when the topic pertains to two groups as it will eliminate most
duplication of answers.
> Anyhow... =A0I've got a unique problem.
>
> I sell a product that acts basically like an air cylinder. =A0It has a tu=
be
> (hard chrome plated inside for you metal guys) with a quill (hard chrome
> plated also) and some rubber seals inside.
>
> One of my customers is a medical giant. =A0They can't have ANY type of
> lubricant in the cylinder as they run the drill or the FDA comes in and
> gives them hell.
>
> So... =A0They basically super-dry their air with a desiccant and dryers s=
o
> that it is down to 0.01% humidity or less and use absolutely no oil
> whatsoever inside the unit.
>
> After 2-3 years of running like this, the unit doesn't stroke so well. =
=A0The
> seals are dried out and the cylinder, although still sealed properly, nee=
ds
> up to 80 PSI air to stroke at all. =A0Normally, they stroke at 15 PSI or =
so...
>
> Anyone know of a lubricant that could be used that would not cause medica=
l
> (food grade or better maybe?) issues?
>
> Can't use oil, grease, dry powder stuff, etc. =A0Can't even use water...
>
> I was thinking something like medical grade alcohol or acetone that
> disappears all by itself if it gets to the atmosphere... =A0But I bet the=
re is
> a better option.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> As a side note, the tube and quill will stroke millions of times with no
> lube without wearing out. =A0We've done long-term tests... =A0The toleran=
ces
> between quill and tube are around 0.001" and the quill diameter is around=
3"
> if it matters.
>
> Having just read a bunch of posts about air tools and proper lube made me
> think that there might be an expert in here with some ideas...
As others have said, Teflon comes to mind first. Perhaps you can warm
the Teflon to a more plastic state and slip it into place?
Wiki had this to say about PTFE:
"Due to its low friction, it is used for applications where sliding
action of parts is needed: bearings, bushings, gears, slide plates,
etc. In these applications it performs significantly better than nylon
and acetal; it is comparable to ultra high-molecular weight
polyethylene (UHMWPE), although UHMWPE is more resistant to wear than
Teflon. For these applications, versions of teflon with mineral oil or
molybdenum disulfide embedded as additional lubricants in its matrix
are being manufactured."
and this:
"Other polymers with similar composition are also known by the Teflon
name:
* PFA (perfluoroalkoxy polymer resin)
* FEP (fluorinated ethylene-propylene)
They retain the useful properties of PTFE of low friction and non-
reactivity, but are more easily formable. FEP is softer than PTFE and
melts at 260 =B0C; it is highly transparent and resistant to sunlight."
Your answer will probably be in there somewhere.
R
On Jul 15, 1:26=A0pm, "Joe AutoDrill" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm copying both the metalworking and woodworking groups. =A0I hope this
> doesn't piss anyone off too badly. =A0I believe the answers and knowledge=
that
> may get passed around is mutually beneficial. =A0Thus the breach in newsg=
roup
> etiquette.
>
> Anyhow... =A0I've got a unique problem.
>
> I sell a product that acts basically like an air cylinder. =A0It has a tu=
be
> (hard chrome plated inside for you metal guys) with a quill (hard chrome
> plated also) and some rubber seals inside.
>
> One of my customers is a medical giant. =A0They can't have ANY type of
> lubricant in the cylinder as they run the drill or the FDA comes in and
> gives them hell.
>
> So... =A0They basically super-dry their air with a desiccant and dryers s=
o
> that it is down to 0.01% humidity or less and use absolutely no oil
> whatsoever inside the unit.
>
> After 2-3 years of running like this, the unit doesn't stroke so well. =
=A0The
> seals are dried out and the cylinder, although still sealed properly, nee=
ds
> up to 80 PSI air to stroke at all. =A0Normally, they stroke at 15 PSI or =
so...
>
> Anyone know of a lubricant that could be used that would not cause medica=
l
> (food grade or better maybe?) issues?
>
> Can't use oil, grease, dry powder stuff, etc. =A0Can't even use water...
>
> I was thinking something like medical grade alcohol or acetone that
> disappears all by itself if it gets to the atmosphere... =A0But I bet the=
re is
> a better option.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> As a side note, the tube and quill will stroke millions of times with no
> lube without wearing out. =A0We've done long-term tests... =A0The toleran=
ces
> between quill and tube are around 0.001" and the quill diameter is around=
3"
> if it matters.
>
> Having just read a bunch of posts about air tools and proper lube made me
> think that there might be an expert in here with some ideas...
>
> Regards,
> Joe Agro, Jr.
> (800) 871-5022
> 01.908.542.0244
> Automatic / Pneumatic Drills:http://www.AutoDrill.com
> Multiple Spindle Drills:http://www.Multi-Drill.com
> Production Tapping:http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
> Flagship Site:http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
> VIDEOS:http://www.youtube.com/user/autodrill
>
> V8013-R
I looked at my Parker O-Ring Handbook and they discuss o-ring sliding
friction, etc. They claim to make PTFE coated o-rings as one option,
but maybe you should call one of their technical reps and discuss your
problem with them and see if there is anything new out there. The
handbook says that generally that the harder durometer elastomers have
less sliding friction, but optimal design has many factors including
groove depth, materials, etc.
Thanks for all the ideas and tips. Still monitoring the posts but I should
probably get back to work sooner or later so I'll respond sporadically as I
see something jump out at me.
Thanks again folks!!!
--
Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/autodrill
V8013-R
On Wed, 15 Jul 2009 20:13:51 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, "Joe AutoDrill" <[email protected]> wrote:
>[...]
>>If I can't find something to simply inject into the system that fixes the
>>problem, they will have to run dry.
>
>Surely the FDA has a list somewhere of approved lubricants?
KY?
Regards,
Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
"Joe AutoDrill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:%[email protected]...
> I'm copying both the metalworking and woodworking groups. I hope this
> doesn't piss anyone off too badly. I believe the answers and knowledge
> that may get passed around is mutually beneficial. Thus the breach in
> newsgroup etiquette.
>
> Anyhow... I've got a unique problem.
>
> I sell a product that acts basically like an air cylinder. It has a tube
> (hard chrome plated inside for you metal guys) with a quill (hard chrome
> plated also) and some rubber seals inside.
>
> One of my customers is a medical giant. They can't have ANY type of
> lubricant in the cylinder as they run the drill or the FDA comes in and
> gives them hell.
>
> So... They basically super-dry their air with a desiccant and dryers so
> that it is down to 0.01% humidity or less and use absolutely no oil
> whatsoever inside the unit.
>
> After 2-3 years of running like this, the unit doesn't stroke so well.
> The seals are dried out and the cylinder, although still sealed properly,
> needs up to 80 PSI air to stroke at all. Normally, they stroke at 15 PSI
> or so...
>
> Anyone know of a lubricant that could be used that would not cause medical
> (food grade or better maybe?) issues?
>
> Can't use oil, grease, dry powder stuff, etc. Can't even use water...
>
> I was thinking something like medical grade alcohol or acetone that
> disappears all by itself if it gets to the atmosphere... But I bet there
> is a better option.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> As a side note, the tube and quill will stroke millions of times with no
> lube without wearing out. We've done long-term tests... The tolerances
> between quill and tube are around 0.001" and the quill diameter is around
> 3" if it matters.
>
> Having just read a bunch of posts about air tools and proper lube made me
> think that there might be an expert in here with some ideas...
Truthfully, I'd say if the machines lasts 2-3 years with out lube they
should simply replace or overhaul the equipment, like most every thing that
the medical industry consumes their tools/equipment goes out for repaired
regularly.
On Wed, 15 Jul 2009 15:04:45 -0400, Joe AutoDrill wrote:
> "Pete C." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> I suspect you need to simply change the seal material. Possibly
>> something like a teflon seal would do the job, not require lubricant or
>> dry out.
>
> I can't "stretch" the teflon seal over my quill to get it to the seal
> groove... I might be able tu cut it, but then they might complain about
> air leakage.
Can you heat it up? (I suspect not -- I can't recall teflon getting
significantly more pliable with heat).
Are there alternatives to what you have that are pliable and slippery?
(I can't think of any, at least none that won't be impregnated with
something nasty, but I thought I'd toss out the notion).
Can you make a long split ring with a feature on the inside to engage the
o-ring groove on the quill, and a serpentine cut that gets squeezed
closed when you put the rig into the piston?
You may be able to make a ring with a feature that's big enough to snap
into the o-ring groove and stay, but shallow enough (and maybe tapered)
enough that the ring will expand over the quill -- like this, with all
due allowances for ASCII art:
.-----------------------------------.
'-----------. .--------------'
'--------'
.--------.
.-----------' '--------------.
'-----------------------------------'
If your quill is chamfered enough on the end you may even be able to
retain sharp edges on both sides of the ridge.
--
www.wescottdesign.com
On Wed, 15 Jul 2009 15:21:25 -0400, Joe AutoDrill wrote:
> "Ignoramus32217" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>I see this as a win-win situation, an opportunity to sell them a new
>> cylinder every couple of years, and charge them $100 per hour
>> installing said cylinders.
>
> Yep. And they've got a bunch of 'em... But I feel guilty workign that
> way if a simple answer might exist.
Besides, someone will come along and say that _their_ stuff doesn't have
the problem and they'll boot you out. Several years later, when they
find out that that company's rep was wrong or lying it'll be too late.
> I told the guy (joking around) to use "slippery air" like Argon or
> Nitrogen and he thought I was serious. I felt bad about that too. :)
You B*****.
--
www.wescottdesign.com
>>> Is the MTBF on this unit significantly less than other elements of the
>>> system that have a similar, or greater replacement cost?
>>
>>Unknown.
>
> It would be interesting to know this.
>
> "Failure" could be an applied metric that references PSI needed to
> cycle, or a specific cycling rate. At a certain point either of these
> could become critical to the proper functioning of the system.
>
> If your unit has a MTBF that is in line with other elements of the
> system, it would be reasonable to conclude that there is a MTBF for
> the system as a whole and that the replacement of your unit would be
> covered under general maintenance, making your product immune from
> being singled out as the primary cause of system failure.
Not a concern. They are happy with the unit and are even happy sending it
back to us for rebuilds regularly... But I always look for a bettr answer
for my customers. No need to shaft them if there is a simple answer out
there someplace. I sell enough untis that rebuilds don't make a difference
between cold cereal and steak for dinner.
--
Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/autodrill
V8013-R
In article <[email protected]>, "Joe AutoDrill" <[email protected]> wrote:
[...]
>If I can't find something to simply inject into the system that fixes the
>problem, they will have to run dry.
Surely the FDA has a list somewhere of approved lubricants?
> You didn't say what you're using for a seal now. There are a zillion
> materials out there--kind of hard to make a suggestion until one knows
> what
> it has to beat.
Buna - Rubber. Standard Parker item. Nothing special. One cup seal and
one cup seal with wiper lip.
Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/autodrill
V8013-R
Joe AutoDrill wrote:
...
> I sell a product that acts basically like an air cylinder. It has a tube
> (hard chrome plated inside for you metal guys) with a quill (hard chrome
> plated also) and some rubber seals inside.
>
> One of my customers is a medical giant. They can't have ANY type of
> lubricant in the cylinder as they run the drill or the FDA comes in and
> gives them hell.
...
> Anyone know of a lubricant that could be used that would not cause medical
> (food grade or better maybe?) issues?
>
> Can't use oil, grease, dry powder stuff, etc. Can't even use water...
>
> I was thinking something like medical grade alcohol or acetone that
> disappears all by itself if it gets to the atmosphere... But I bet there is
> a better option.
>
> Thoughts?
...
Not on a direct solution, no...
Curiosity--is this in an actual medical device or used in the
manufacture of a device? Might have bearing on how to approach, I don't
know.
Only suggestions I would have would be (a) have you tried working w/ the
FDA "advice/guidance for approval" side instead of enforcement? Same
overall organization but different hats. Not my baliwick but coworker
did some consulting work in medical device area and actually did get
some useful feedback that way, and (b) any chance you could find
somebody in local/state university w/ the med school/med-engineering
school in the field that might talk to you?
--
Joe AutoDrill wrote:
> I'm copying both the metalworking and woodworking groups. I hope this
> doesn't piss anyone off too badly. I believe the answers and knowledge that
> may get passed around is mutually beneficial. Thus the breach in newsgroup
> etiquette.
>
> Anyhow... I've got a unique problem.
>
> I sell a product that acts basically like an air cylinder. It has a tube
> (hard chrome plated inside for you metal guys) with a quill (hard chrome
> plated also) and some rubber seals inside.
>
> One of my customers is a medical giant. They can't have ANY type of
> lubricant in the cylinder as they run the drill or the FDA comes in and
> gives them hell.
>
> So... They basically super-dry their air with a desiccant and dryers so
> that it is down to 0.01% humidity or less and use absolutely no oil
> whatsoever inside the unit.
>
> After 2-3 years of running like this, the unit doesn't stroke so well. The
> seals are dried out and the cylinder, although still sealed properly, needs
> up to 80 PSI air to stroke at all. Normally, they stroke at 15 PSI or so...
>
> Anyone know of a lubricant that could be used that would not cause medical
> (food grade or better maybe?) issues?
I would try teflon rings for the seals.
It sounds like this is something that is used under true sterile
controls. I would assume it can be disassembled for autoclaving?
>
> Can't use oil, grease, dry powder stuff, etc. Can't even use water...
>
> I was thinking something like medical grade alcohol or acetone that
> disappears all by itself if it gets to the atmosphere... But I bet there is
> a better option.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> As a side note, the tube and quill will stroke millions of times with no
> lube without wearing out. We've done long-term tests... The tolerances
> between quill and tube are around 0.001" and the quill diameter is around 3"
> if it matters.
>
> Having just read a bunch of posts about air tools and proper lube made me
> think that there might be an expert in here with some ideas...
>
> Regards,
> Joe Agro, Jr.
> (800) 871-5022
> 01.908.542.0244
> Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
> Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
> Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
> Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
> VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/autodrill
>
> V8013-R
>
>
>
--
Steve W.
Joe AutoDrill wrote:
>>> If I can't find something to simply inject into the system that fixes the
>>> problem, they will have to run dry.
>> Surely the FDA has a list somewhere of approved lubricants?
>
> They sure do. However, given the nature of what they are doing, they need
> to go to the FDA for approval every time they change something in the system
> such as this... and their reluctance to do that is clear. If the machine
> changes slightly, apparently the loophole exists that they don't need a new
> approval.
>
> I wish I knew the exact application... But for all I know, they're using
> them on live patients knee cap replacement parts - in body already... I
> simply don't know...
...
So iow the user has implied they're not going to rock the boat but if
the manufacturer changes the equipment, "well, how were _we_ to know???"?
Seems like an uncomfortable position to be in. Do you certify the
equipment to any Standard or spec if you do simply change a seal
material that would be in contravention to?
Seems hard to evaluate what, if any, effect a fix might have if you
don't even know what it is your device application is...
I'd assumed you were working w/ the end user on this rather than in
isolation.
--
Joe AutoDrill wrote:
>> Is the MTBF on this unit significantly less than other elements of
>> the system that have a similar, or greater replacement cost?
>
> Unknown.
You didn't say what you're using for a seal now. There are a zillion
materials out there--kind of hard to make a suggestion until one knows what
it has to beat.
Joe AutoDrill wrote:
>> I would try teflon rings for the seals. It sounds like this is
>> something that is used under true sterile controls. I would assume
>> it can be disassembled for autoclaving?
>
> I doubt they cook it... In fact, I can pretty much guarantee they
> don't...
In that case you could likely use a split Teflon ring that has an
overlapping joint.
--
Steve W.
Joe,
I am certainly not an expert, but I may have a solution. If possible, you
should consider adding another seal or "O" ring, not to seal, but to
lubricate. It is possible to get rubber that is molded with silicone
imbedded in the rubber. You can occasionally see windshield wipers made with
the stuff and they last much longer than standard rubber, but they also
leave a microscopic film of silicone on the windshield that acts as a water
repellant. Perhaps this is worth pursuing.
Steve
"Joe AutoDrill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:%[email protected]...
> I'm copying both the metalworking and woodworking groups. I hope this
> doesn't piss anyone off too badly. I believe the answers and knowledge
> that may get passed around is mutually beneficial. Thus the breach in
> newsgroup etiquette.
>
> Anyhow... I've got a unique problem.
>
> I sell a product that acts basically like an air cylinder. It has a tube
> (hard chrome plated inside for you metal guys) with a quill (hard chrome
> plated also) and some rubber seals inside.
>
> One of my customers is a medical giant. They can't have ANY type of
> lubricant in the cylinder as they run the drill or the FDA comes in and
> gives them hell.
>
> So... They basically super-dry their air with a desiccant and dryers so
> that it is down to 0.01% humidity or less and use absolutely no oil
> whatsoever inside the unit.
>
> After 2-3 years of running like this, the unit doesn't stroke so well.
> The seals are dried out and the cylinder, although still sealed properly,
> needs up to 80 PSI air to stroke at all. Normally, they stroke at 15 PSI
> or so...
>
> Anyone know of a lubricant that could be used that would not cause medical
> (food grade or better maybe?) issues?
>
> Can't use oil, grease, dry powder stuff, etc. Can't even use water...
>
> I was thinking something like medical grade alcohol or acetone that
> disappears all by itself if it gets to the atmosphere... But I bet there
> is a better option.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> As a side note, the tube and quill will stroke millions of times with no
> lube without wearing out. We've done long-term tests... The tolerances
> between quill and tube are around 0.001" and the quill diameter is around
> 3" if it matters.
>
> Having just read a bunch of posts about air tools and proper lube made me
> think that there might be an expert in here with some ideas...
>
> Regards,
> Joe Agro, Jr.
> (800) 871-5022
> 01.908.542.0244
> Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
> Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
> Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
> Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
> VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/autodrill
>
> V8013-R
>
>
>
Joe AutoDrill wrote:
>> You didn't say what you're using for a seal now. There are a zillion
>> materials out there--kind of hard to make a suggestion until one
>> knows what
>> it has to beat.
>
> Buna - Rubber. Standard Parker item. Nothing special. One cup seal
> and one cup seal with wiper lip.
If you're working with Parker best thing to do is give 'em a call--they're
very big boys and they've got a bunch of formulations including some that
are pretty exotic. Odds are that they'll have just the thing for your
application.
Joe AutoDrill wrote:
>> Seems like an uncomfortable position to be in. Do you certify the
>> equipment to any Standard or spec if you do simply change a seal material
>> that would be in contravention to?
>
> No. No certification. They bought without telling us the specific nature
> of the application and used the machines (multiple) for a few years now. We
> always wondered why we got them back every so often for rebuilds and they
> would work absolutely perfectly here with just a bit of work... And a new
> seal kit every time.
>
> Now that we know what they are doing, we have simply said, "We were not told
> of this but will do all we can to improve it for you."
...
Thass good...had too many times where something was tried to get
finessed by customer utilities by "suggesting" we (the vendor) make a
change that would have the end result of us being the ones who were the
ones w/ a compliance violation w/ NRC.
Wouldn't want to see a good guy trying to help somebody out find
themselves in a wringer unwittingly.
--
Joe AutoDrill wrote:
>>> Buna - Rubber. Standard Parker item. Nothing special. One cup
>>> seal and one cup seal with wiper lip.
>>
>> If you're working with Parker best thing to do is give 'em a
>> call--they're very big boys and they've got a bunch of formulations
>> including some that are pretty exotic. Odds are that they'll have
>> just the thing for your application.
>
> Went to them before coming here. Because our application is in a
> closed groove, there weren't many options. ...Or maybe I just got a
> bum rep. with little knowledge of products. :)
OK, stupid question time--is there any way that for this specific
application you could use an O-ring either directly or with a machined
adapter?
If so, then that opens up a lot of choices.
"Pete C." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I suspect you need to simply change the seal material. Possibly
> something like a teflon seal would do the job, not require lubricant or
> dry out.
I can't "stretch" the teflon seal over my quill to get it to the seal
groove... I might be able tu cut it, but then they might complain about air
leakage.
--
Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/autodrill
V8013-R
Joe AutoDrill submitted this idea :
> "Pete C." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> I suspect you need to simply change the seal material. Possibly
>> something like a teflon seal would do the job, not require lubricant or
>> dry out.
>
> I can't "stretch" the teflon seal over my quill to get it to the seal
> groove... I might be able tu cut it, but then they might complain about air
> leakage.
> --
>
>
> Regards,
> Joe Agro, Jr.
> (800) 871-5022
> 01.908.542.0244
> Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
> Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
> Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
> Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
> VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/autodrill
>
> V8013-R
For the shock on dirt bikes there is an o-ring covered by a teflon
(I think) seal. The o-ring pushes the seal to the cylinder wall.
The seal can be installed by warming in a microwave. It can also
be cut with a Z shape. Usually the seal doesn't wear out, but the
o-ring
loses its elasticity over time. Those shocks get pretty hot. I wouldn't
think the o-ring in your application would be subject to as much heat.
Also they are sealing oil, not air, so a cut might be worse.
Wayne D.
On Wed, 15 Jul 2009 14:26:47 -0400, "Joe AutoDrill" <[email protected]>
wrote:
Leaping in several hours too late, but...
PTFE piston rings or even cast iron piston rings. Cast iron may well be
better.
If perfect sealing is vital, look up Clupet style piston rings. If perfect
sealing is not a major problem, just use a split ring with a few thou of
clearance.
Mark Rand
RTFM
On Wed, 15 Jul 2009 15:04:45 -0400, "Joe AutoDrill"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>"Pete C." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>> I suspect you need to simply change the seal material. Possibly
>> something like a teflon seal would do the job, not require lubricant or
>> dry out.
>
>I can't "stretch" the teflon seal over my quill to get it to the seal
>groove... I might be able tu cut it, but then they might complain about air
>leakage.
Have you looked into what kind of seals they use in the
oiless air compressors? I understood that it was some sort
of teflon seal. Maybe you could duplicate whatever they are
doing...
--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email
> Seems like an uncomfortable position to be in. Do you certify the
> equipment to any Standard or spec if you do simply change a seal material
> that would be in contravention to?
No. No certification. They bought without telling us the specific nature
of the application and used the machines (multiple) for a few years now. We
always wondered why we got them back every so often for rebuilds and they
would work absolutely perfectly here with just a bit of work... And a new
seal kit every time.
Now that we know what they are doing, we have simply said, "We were not told
of this but will do all we can to improve it for you."
CLIP
> I'd assumed you were working w/ the end user on this rather than in
> isolation.
Sorta... Isolation at the moment with a list of suggestions possibly to be
tried here or provided to the end user depending on what they wind up
being...
--
Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/autodrill
V8013-R
On Wed, 15 Jul 2009 16:02:07 -0400, "Joe AutoDrill"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>> Is the MTBF on this unit significantly less than other elements of the
>> system that have a similar, or greater replacement cost?
>
>Unknown.
>
>Regards,
>Joe Agro, Jr.
>(800) 871-5022
>01.908.542.0244
>Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
>Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
>Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
>Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
>VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/autodrill
>
>V8013-R
>
>
It would be interesting to know this.
"Failure" could be an applied metric that references PSI needed to
cycle, or a specific cycling rate. At a certain point either of these
could become critical to the proper functioning of the system.
If your unit has a MTBF that is in line with other elements of the
system, it would be reasonable to conclude that there is a MTBF for
the system as a whole and that the replacement of your unit would be
covered under general maintenance, making your product immune from
being singled out as the primary cause of system failure.
Regards,
Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
> I would try teflon rings for the seals.
> It sounds like this is something that is used under true sterile
> controls. I would assume it can be disassembled for autoclaving?
I doubt they cook it... In fact, I can pretty much guarantee they don't...
--
Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/autodrill
V8013-R
dpb wrote:
> Joe AutoDrill wrote:
> ...
>> I sell a product that acts basically like an air cylinder. It has a
>> tube (hard chrome plated inside for you metal guys) with a quill (hard
>> chrome plated also) and some rubber seals inside.
>>
>> One of my customers is a medical giant. They can't have ANY type of
>> lubricant in the cylinder as they run the drill or the FDA comes in
>> and gives them hell.
> ...
>> Anyone know of a lubricant that could be used that would not cause
>> medical (food grade or better maybe?) issues?
>>
>> Can't use oil, grease, dry powder stuff, etc. Can't even use water...
>>
>> I was thinking something like medical grade alcohol or acetone that
>> disappears all by itself if it gets to the atmosphere... But I bet
>> there is a better option.
>>
>> Thoughts?
> ...
>
> Not on a direct solution, no...
>
> Curiosity--is this in an actual medical device or used in the
> manufacture of a device? Might have bearing on how to approach, I don't
> know.
>
> Only suggestions I would have would be (a) have you tried working w/ the
> FDA "advice/guidance for approval" side instead of enforcement? Same
> overall organization but different hats. Not my baliwick but coworker
> did some consulting work in medical device area and actually did get
> some useful feedback that way, and (b) any chance you could find
> somebody in local/state university w/ the med school/med-engineering
> school in the field that might talk to you?
>
http://www.canica.com/index.asp
A medical tool company, operated by Rob Lee's father IIRC (of Lee Valley
Tool Fame).
I don't see anything directly related to your issue, but they do have
engineers and such that are familiar with surgical/medical equipment.
--
Froz...
nhurst wrote:
> I was under the impression that teflon is carcinogenic if ingested,
> which is why you should toss pots and pans with flaking teflon on
> them.
Don't think so, they use it for surgical purposes. I believe the
problem with flaking teflon on pots is that it exposes you to bare
aluminum underneath which has been associated (though not definitively)
with Alzheimer's. That said, plenty of restaurants cook on bare aluminum.
Chris