I hired someone to put up a wood fence, and I am not too happy about the
outcome. In the contract I specified how far the posts need to be placed,
how deep to bury, using concrete cement, how high the fence needs to be
etc...and all of it has to be to code anyways.
But the outcome...well my fault for not specifying two things:
(1) Material...I was told all the wood planks for the fence are "standard"
therefore there is no need to specify what type. Well I am getting this
pressure treated wood planks with all sorts of white knots. The installer
told me it's normal. I looked around at other people's fence and I do not
see the same knots ALL OVER...on may be a few, but not on all planks. See
the pics:
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/P1000656.jpg
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/P1000654.jpg
(2) The planks are also not straight, so it bends in here and bends out
there, it just does not look good.
I asked him why he did not buy the preassembled 6'x8' fences at HD that
seems to be of higher quality wood he said he prefer to build the fence
himself with planks piece by piece.
(3) Now when I am looking on the other side of the fence (inside), the
runners are not straight, some of it crooked, some of it not level...see for
yourself:
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/P1000657.jpg
There are also lots of gaps between planks, in many places I can stick my
thumb through.
I am not happy with this, yet there is nothing in the contract that says
anything has to be straight and level, and planks need to be assembled in
such a way to minimize gaps.
or am I just too picky?
MC
"MiamiCuse" wrote in message
> I am struggling whether to stop this job now or let him finish and get
> someone else to remedy it. Either way it will cost me money.
Providing you do your business correctly, any cost at this stage should be
minimized by how well you did that.
Have you paid up front?
I build a couple of houses a year and handle most "turn key" subcontractor
work by paying a maximum of 50% upfront, the remainder to be paid at the end
of the job and only after it passes inspection ... both mine, and the local
building department's.
Folks gripe and moan about municipal building regulations and codes, but as
a builder I welcome them wholeheartedly. It forces _everyone_ in the
process to do what they say they will do, and ultimately makes life easier
for all but those who do shoddy work.
In many locales these days fences are covered by municipal regulation. If
this is the case in yours, and even though you may not have a permit, it may
pay in the long run to pay additional fees and get that regulatory body
behind you.
One of the real tight ropes that you have to watch with many in the building
industry these days is "retribution" ... it pays to be both careful, and
diplomatic, about how you handle this ... another benefit of having the
"code enforcement" guys to fall back on.
What ever you do, take the last above to heart, even though it may cost you
a bit more. Advice on how to proceed may be tempered by whether you have
already paid for the project.
Good luck.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07
Swingman wrote:
> And I don't want to hear any warm fuzzy shit about cultural
> "generalizations", because unless you've worked side by side with "macho" on
> a daily basis, along with the retribution/vengeance extracted from real or
> imagined slight of same, you ain't got a clue.
Maybe I do... I'm passive aggressive. I can fuck up anything... accidentally of
course.
--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com
On Mar 12, 1:05 am, "MiamiCuse" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I hired someone to put up a wood fence, and I am not too happy about the
> outcome. In the contract I specified how far the posts need to be placed,
> how deep to bury, using concrete cement, how high the fence needs to be
> etc...and all of it has to be to code anyways.
>
> But the outcome...well my fault for not specifying two things:
>
> (1) Material...I was told all the wood planks for the fence are "standard"
> therefore there is no need to specify what type. Well I am getting this
> pressure treated wood planks with all sorts of white knots. The installer
> told me it's normal. I looked around at other people's fence and I do not
> see the same knots ALL OVER...on may be a few, but not on all planks. See
> the pics:
>
> http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/P1000656.jpg
>
> http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/P1000654.jpg
>
> (2) The planks are also not straight, so it bends in here and bends out
> there, it just does not look good.
>
> I asked him why he did not buy the preassembled 6'x8' fences at HD that
> seems to be of higher quality wood he said he prefer to build the fence
> himself with planks piece by piece.
>
> (3) Now when I am looking on the other side of the fence (inside), the
> runners are not straight, some of it crooked, some of it not level...see for
> yourself:
>
> http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/P1000657.jpg
>
> There are also lots of gaps between planks, in many places I can stick my
> thumb through.
>
> I am not happy with this, yet there is nothing in the contract that says
> anything has to be straight and level, and planks need to be assembled in
> such a way to minimize gaps.
>
> or am I just too picky?
>
> MC
I don't think your being too picky either. The material appears to be
poor quality and the workmanship seems amateurish.
Joe G
On Mar 12, 1:05 am, "MiamiCuse" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I hired someone to put up a wood fence, and I am not too happy about the
> outcome. In the contract I specified how far the posts need to be placed,
> how deep to bury, using concrete cement, how high the fence needs to be
> etc...and all of it has to be to code anyways.
>
{snip}
>
> I am not happy with this, yet there is nothing in the contract that says
> anything has to be straight and level, and planks need to be assembled in
> such a way to minimize gaps.
>
> or am I just too picky?
You're not being too picky at all, but you're closing the barn door a
bit late.
- From the looks of it, the guy obviously never put up a fence before,
apparently never _saw_ a fence before and drank heavily while building
yours. That's unfair - he may have been shooting up while building
it.
- If the first section looks like crap, you won't feel better when the
whole fence is up and the whole thing looks like crap. Stop the work.
- You've just learned that what is not included in the contract will
bite your ass every time.
- If you didn't check some references (that means taking a drive and
eyeballing some of the guy's work - not picking up the phone and
calling his brother who will be the one picking up the phone), and
took the lowest bid - well, you have to share some of the blame.
What to do from here. Find out if fence installers have to be
licensed in your neck of the woods - if so, this guy ain't, so report
him. You may be entitled to all of your money back (whether you'll
see it or not is another story). Around here the contractor licensing
agency has a homeowner restitution fund for just such situations.
It's a bit of a touchy subject with me because the homeowner is trying
to save a buck the wrong way and hiring the unlicensed hack. I don't
see why good contractors should be made to pay for the bad
contractors. The contractors in turn pass on the cost to their good
customers - again, the wrong people are paying. You can't legislate
stupidity out of existence.
If there is no licensing requirement and no restitution fund, you've
just learned what you should have known from the start. The only one
that can protect your interests is you. If you don't have enough
knowledge to be able to tell the good from the bad - contractors and
work - then hire someone who does.
R
On Mar 18, 1:37 pm, "Max" <it ain'[email protected]>
wrote:
>
> I think I would take him to small claims court.
>
> Max
Yup...I would.
Take a picture, do a simple website and run a classified ad with the
website's addy on it, in a local paper.
If the fence contractor considers his work 'normal', he won't have a
leg to stand on if he tries to get you to take down that website. (5
bucks per month, max)
..and of course the BBB and such.
On Mar 18, 1:27 pm, "MiamiCuse" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I am struggling whether to stop this job now or let him finish and get
> someone else to remedy it. Either way it will cost me money.
I don't know which is the bigger piece of work - you or the fence!
The time to stop the work was a week ago when _everybody_ said the
fence was a total POS. You're digging yourself into a deeper hole by
letting him proceed.
As I said before, if you don't know what you're doing and aren't up to
the task of supervising the work, hire someone who is. It would have
been _cheaper_ than what you're going to be going through now.
R
On Mar 12, 1:05 am, "MiamiCuse" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I hired someone to put up a wood fence, and I am not too happy about the
> outcome. In the contract I specified how far the posts need to be placed,
> how deep to bury, using concrete cement, how high the fence needs to be
> etc...and all of it has to be to code anyways.
>
> But the outcome...well my fault for not specifying two things:
>
> (1) Material...I was told all the wood planks for the fence are "standard"
> therefore there is no need to specify what type. Well I am getting this
> pressure treated wood planks with all sorts of white knots. The installer
> told me it's normal. I looked around at other people's fence and I do not
> see the same knots ALL OVER...on may be a few, but not on all planks. See
> the pics:
>
> http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/P1000656.jpg
>
> http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/P1000654.jpg
>
> (2) The planks are also not straight, so it bends in here and bends out
> there, it just does not look good.
>
> I asked him why he did not buy the preassembled 6'x8' fences at HD that
> seems to be of higher quality wood he said he prefer to build the fence
> himself with planks piece by piece.
>
> (3) Now when I am looking on the other side of the fence (inside), the
> runners are not straight, some of it crooked, some of it not level...see for
> yourself:
>
> http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/P1000657.jpg
>
> There are also lots of gaps between planks, in many places I can stick my
> thumb through.
>
> I am not happy with this, yet there is nothing in the contract that says
> anything has to be straight and level, and planks need to be assembled in
> such a way to minimize gaps.
>
> or am I just too picky?
>
> MC
He should be carrying around and using an 8' plumb level like it was
his third arm. Nothing gets nailed down unless the level says it's
dead on. Posts get sunk below the frostline (36" in the northeast).
Posts will not "plumb themselves;" in fact, they shouldn't move
at all once the concrete sets. If he says they'll move, that's a
BIG clue that something isn't right. Defective planks can be
avoided by buying from a reputable dealer. Who was his?
Necessary gaps are established by setting the pickets tight
against each other and letting them dry. If you can get a
thumb in between, that's a hazard that *you* might get sued
for later on.
On Mar 18, 2:02 pm, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I would cut my losses right now. Fire this guy. It's not going to get any
> better. What's the point of continuing to pay him for something that is
> going to need to be redone anyway? Yes, it's going to cost you to have it
> replaced but why put more money into a loosing situation?
Figure what you *do* owe him, pay him not one penny more,
and get the fuck out.
On Mar 19, 10:03 am, "RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Renata wrote:
>
> > How 'bout, figure what you owe him, subtract what it's gonna cost you
> > to fix the mess he created, and pay him the difference.
>
> Removing and rebuilding the fence entirely would no doubt cost more
> than what it cost just building that thing.
If the posts are set to proper depth, yes. By Miami's description,
apparently
they're not.
Father Haskell wrote:
> On Mar 19, 10:03 am, "RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > Removing and rebuilding the fence entirely would no doubt cost more
> > than what it cost just building that thing.
>
> If the posts are set to proper depth, yes. By Miami's description,
> apparently they're not.
Any demo work at all will cost extra. Any rubbish removal will cost
extra, and it's all rubbish.
Pay for it once the right way, or pay for it three times the wrong
way. Once to build the hack job, once to have the hack job removed
and hauled away, and once to have the job done the right way.
R
On Mar 19, 12:34 pm, "RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Father Haskell wrote:
> > On Mar 19, 10:03 am, "RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > Removing and rebuilding the fence entirely would no doubt cost more
> > > than what it cost just building that thing.
>
> > If the posts are set to proper depth, yes. By Miami's description,
> > apparently they're not.
>
> Any demo work at all will cost extra. Any rubbish removal will cost
> extra, and it's all rubbish.
Shame then that nothing could be salvaged and reused.
Dumping fee is $65 / ton at my nearest landfill. That doesn't count
the guy with the pickup.
> Pay for it once the right way, or pay for it three times the wrong
> way. Once to build the hack job, once to have the hack job removed
> and hauled away, and once to have the job done the right way.
Which starts with references.
On 18 Mar, 22:58, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> to defecating under insulation in attic/in wall spaces,
Oh, don't they _all_ do that?
There's a well-known expression about bears which has locally modified
to become something about plumbers and attics... Quite honestly I'm
tired of finding plumber-turds in nearly every roofspace I go into!
MiamiCuse wrote:
> He seemed more pissed off than I am!
>
> and I am the one being stucked with a substandard fence!
>
> MC
>
If you think he's ticked off now, wait until you call the local
newspaper guy over for a look-see.
Bill
--
I am disillusioned enough to know that no man's opinion on any subject
is worth (much) unless backed up with enough genuine information to make
him really know what he's talking about.
H. P. Lovecraft
http://nmwoodworks.com
---
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Virus Database (VPS): 000724-1, 03/16/2007
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No, you are not being too picky and if the job was done twice as well you
*still* wouldn't be picky for deeming it to be slipshod. You should demand
all of your money back and file a case with the BBB. I believe the usual
contract language that would apply here is "work to be completed in a
substantial workmanlike manner". Did you sign anything along those lines?
If so, your installer failed to live up to his end of the bargain.
Good luck.
jc
>I am not happy with this, yet there is nothing in the contract that says
>anything has to be straight and level, and planks need to be assembled in
>such a way to minimize gaps.
>
>or am I just too picky?
I hope you got a kiss with the screwing. That has to be one of the
worst jobs I have ever seen and I wonder how long he had to shop to
find such bad boards. I'm no lawyer but I think any contract assumes
reasonable workmanship and that doesn't qualify. Hopefully, you
haven't paid him yet. Good luck and no, you're not too picky.
He said in this world nothing is
>perfect and that I am a perfectionist and asking for the impossible. He
>said the material is out of his control because he bought a pallet of it and
>the quality varies. I said it is his responsibility to look at the wood
>during installation and when he saw pieces that are in such bad shape he
>should have taken them back and not continue to install them. It is also
>his responsibility to ensure his workers install everything plumb and level.
>He said he has been installing fences for fifteen years and never has
>someone accused him of poor workmanship.
He's right on one account - in the construction business nothing is
perfect and to expect boards to be cut to +/- .0001 is absurd but this
ain't even close. I'm not a carpenter but I have built several fences
for myself and to help friends and I would be humiliated to have my
work turn out like that. I'm sure he bought a pallet of lumber -
that's normal - but he obviously bought the cheapest grade and that
quality was to be expected. Had he paid for and expected a better
grade, he would have rejected it as soon as he saw it. Being angry is
a good defensive measure to intimidate your customer - puts you on the
defensive. If he hasn't had a complaint about poor workmanship this
must be the first job he's done in 15 years or he only works for
elderly, blind, bedridden clients. Sounds like you have a problem on
your hands. Good luck to you.
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> The guy building the fence has little experience. The give away are the
> blocks of wood that each rail is sitting on and the 2 rails being attached
> with the same orientation. The top rail should have the wide side on the
> top and bottom and should actually be on top of the posts to help keep
> water from soaking into the top of the posts.
I should also add that with the top rail having the wide sides up and down,
the lower rail/rails should have the narrow side facing up and down to add
strength and help prevent what you are witnessing.
My fences start with a 1x6 PT running along the ground nailed on the outside
of the posts. This is followed immediately with 1 rail between the posts
and its bottom about 3/4" lower than the top of the 1x6 and just behind the
1x6. This rail is attached with its wide side facing the pickets. Half way
up the posts another rail between the posts with the wide side facing the
pickets. On top of the posts the 3rd rail with wide side facing up and
covering the top of the posts. I prefer to use cedar pickets and set them
on top of the bottom 1x6 PT rail jammed next to each other.
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Leon" wrote in message
>
>> I should also add that with the top rail having the wide sides up and
> down,
>> the lower rail/rails should have the narrow side facing up and down to
>> add
>> strength and help prevent what you are witnessing.
>>
>> My fences start with a 1x6 PT running along the ground nailed on the
> outside
>> of the posts. This is followed immediately with 1 rail between the posts
>> and its bottom about 3/4" lower than the top of the 1x6 and just behind
> the
>> 1x6. This rail is attached with its wide side facing the pickets.
>
> Same sensible construction method, but here in West U we are required by
> city building regulation to use a PT 2x12 "rot board" in the place of the
> 1x6 on the "good side".
Yeah, essentially the 1x6 is a "rot board". But dang those 2x12" would be
heavy. LOL I pay a little extra and buy Maximizer concrete in 40 lb. bags
rather than the 80 lb. bags.
If a customer does not want the rot board, he may pay extra for labor. The
rot board speeds up construction as you do not have to waste time with
making sure the pickets are at the right height.
Did you ask him if he ever built a fence before? Lousy job and looks like he
got a deal on reject wood. No, you're not being to picky.
"MiamiCuse" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I hired someone to put up a wood fence, and I am not too happy about the
> outcome. In the contract I specified how far the posts need to be placed,
> how deep to bury, using concrete cement, how high the fence needs to be
> etc...and all of it has to be to code anyways.
>
> But the outcome...well my fault for not specifying two things:
>
> (1) Material...I was told all the wood planks for the fence are "standard"
> therefore there is no need to specify what type. Well I am getting this
> pressure treated wood planks with all sorts of white knots. The installer
> told me it's normal. I looked around at other people's fence and I do not
> see the same knots ALL OVER...on may be a few, but not on all planks. See
> the pics:
>
> http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/P1000656.jpg
>
> http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/P1000654.jpg
>
> (2) The planks are also not straight, so it bends in here and bends out
> there, it just does not look good.
>
> I asked him why he did not buy the preassembled 6'x8' fences at HD that
> seems to be of higher quality wood he said he prefer to build the fence
> himself with planks piece by piece.
>
> (3) Now when I am looking on the other side of the fence (inside), the
> runners are not straight, some of it crooked, some of it not level...see
for
> yourself:
>
> http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/P1000657.jpg
>
> There are also lots of gaps between planks, in many places I can stick my
> thumb through.
>
> I am not happy with this, yet there is nothing in the contract that says
> anything has to be straight and level, and planks need to be assembled in
> such a way to minimize gaps.
>
> or am I just too picky?
>
> MC
>
>
"MiamiCuse" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "tom (REMOVE) (Tom)" wrote in message
>>
>>> He's right on one account - in the construction business nothing is
>>> perfect
>>
>> The biggest problem in the construction business today is cultural. The
>> folks who do the work, while they are willing to work hard and long, are
>> culturally inclined to have more pride in other areas of life than their
>> work.
>>
>> Couple that with piss poor supervision and you get that fence ... which
>> appears to have the same level of workmanship of many houses today.
>>
>> --
>> www.e-woodshop.net
>> Last update: 2/20/07
>>
>>
>
> The fence is not done yet. He has yet to finish the back and front gate.
> Yesterday I went to take a look at the wood posts he erected for the gate.
> I looked at it and can see with my eyes the post is not plumb, he actually
> has to cut the wood board unevenly so it would be flush with the post. I
> put a level up against it and it's off about an inch over 24 inches. So
> at a six foot height it's leaning away from the gate 3 inches at the top.
>
> I told him if he mount a gate on this the gate will be tilted. I demanded
> that he redo the post and make it plumb. He said he knows what he is
> doing and that once he mounts the gate the gate's weight will pull the
> post inward and eventually after a year or so it will be plumb. I told
> him he should wait for the concrete to set on the post and it shouldn't
> really drag 3 inches into the gate. If it does, what does that do to the
> corner post which is now plumb? Will the corner posts be pulled along
> with it?
>
> I am struggling whether to stop this job now or let him finish and get
> someone else to remedy it. Either way it will cost me money.
>
> MC
I think I would take him to small claims court.
Max
"Leon" wrote in message
> I should also add that with the top rail having the wide sides up and
down,
> the lower rail/rails should have the narrow side facing up and down to add
> strength and help prevent what you are witnessing.
>
> My fences start with a 1x6 PT running along the ground nailed on the
outside
> of the posts. This is followed immediately with 1 rail between the posts
> and its bottom about 3/4" lower than the top of the 1x6 and just behind
the
> 1x6. This rail is attached with its wide side facing the pickets.
Same sensible construction method, but here in West U we are required by
city building regulation to use a PT 2x12 "rot board" in the place of the
1x6 on the "good side".
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07
Swingman wrote:
> One of the real tight ropes that you have to watch with many in the building
> industry these days is "retribution" ... it pays to be both careful, and
> diplomatic, about how you handle this ... another benefit of having the
> "code enforcement" guys to fall back on.
Can you expand on this a bit? What kind of retribution?
--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com
CW wrote:
>> He seemed more pissed off than I am!
>
> If he's been doing that kind of work for 15 years, he has had plenty of time
> to perfect his "pissed off" act. He figures that if he seems pissed enough,
> you'll just drop it.
It's been my experience as a nurse that the more defensive people get, the
guiltier they feel. He knows his work sucks.
--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com
I would cut my losses right now. Fire this guy. It's not going to get any
better. What's the point of continuing to pay him for something that is
going to need to be redone anyway? Yes, it's going to cost you to have it
replaced but why put more money into a loosing situation?
"MiamiCuse" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> The fence is not done yet. He has yet to finish the back and front gate.
> Yesterday I went to take a look at the wood posts he erected for the gate.
> I looked at it and can see with my eyes the post is not plumb, he actually
> has to cut the wood board unevenly so it would be flush with the post. I
> put a level up against it and it's off about an inch over 24 inches. So
at
> a six foot height it's leaning away from the gate 3 inches at the top.
>
> I told him if he mount a gate on this the gate will be tilted. I demanded
> that he redo the post and make it plumb. He said he knows what he is
doing
> and that once he mounts the gate the gate's weight will pull the post
inward
> and eventually after a year or so it will be plumb. I told him he should
> wait for the concrete to set on the post and it shouldn't really drag 3
> inches into the gate. If it does, what does that do to the corner post
> which is now plumb? Will the corner posts be pulled along with it?
>
> I am struggling whether to stop this job now or let him finish and get
> someone else to remedy it. Either way it will cost me money.
>
> MC
>
>
"Mike Patterson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>>
> Would you happen to have a picture of that setup?
I posted a CAD drawing in PDF file format on a.b.p.w.
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "tom (REMOVE) (Tom)" wrote in message
>
>> He's right on one account - in the construction business nothing is
>> perfect
>
> The biggest problem in the construction business today is cultural. The
> folks who do the work, while they are willing to work hard and long, are
> culturally inclined to have more pride in other areas of life than their
> work.
>
> Couple that with piss poor supervision and you get that fence ... which
> appears to have the same level of workmanship of many houses today.
>
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 2/20/07
>
>
The fence is not done yet. He has yet to finish the back and front gate.
Yesterday I went to take a look at the wood posts he erected for the gate.
I looked at it and can see with my eyes the post is not plumb, he actually
has to cut the wood board unevenly so it would be flush with the post. I
put a level up against it and it's off about an inch over 24 inches. So at
a six foot height it's leaning away from the gate 3 inches at the top.
I told him if he mount a gate on this the gate will be tilted. I demanded
that he redo the post and make it plumb. He said he knows what he is doing
and that once he mounts the gate the gate's weight will pull the post inward
and eventually after a year or so it will be plumb. I told him he should
wait for the concrete to set on the post and it shouldn't really drag 3
inches into the gate. If it does, what does that do to the corner post
which is now plumb? Will the corner posts be pulled along with it?
I am struggling whether to stop this job now or let him finish and get
someone else to remedy it. Either way it will cost me money.
MC
"MiamiCuse" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Thanks for all the reply and comments.
>
> Yes, I think I learned a lesson here. I have to check references from now
> on. I usually do, but for fence installation I assume this is a
"standard"
> procedure and does not require too much skills so I got lazy...well I
> learned.
>
> I pointed this out to the installer about the bad wood and the bad
> workmanship and he got pissed at me. He said in this world nothing is
> perfect and that I am a perfectionist and asking for the impossible. He
> said the material is out of his control because he bought a pallet of it
and
> the quality varies. I said it is his responsibility to look at the wood
> during installation and when he saw pieces that are in such bad shape he
> should have taken them back and not continue to install them. It is also
> his responsibility to ensure his workers install everything plumb and
level.
> He said he has been installing fences for fifteen years and never has
> someone accused him of poor workmanship.
>
> He seemed more pissed off than I am!
If he's been doing that kind of work for 15 years, he has had plenty of time
to perfect his "pissed off" act. He figures that if he seems pissed enough,
you'll just drop it.
"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
> On 18 Mar, 22:58, "Swingman" wrote:
>
> > to defecating under insulation in attic/in wall spaces,
>
> Oh, don't they _all_ do that?
>
> There's a well-known expression about bears which has locally modified
> to become something about plumbers and attics... Quite honestly I'm
> tired of finding plumber-turds in nearly every roofspace I go into!
Damn Irish!
;)
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07
"MiamiCuse" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
.
>
> But the outcome...well my fault for not specifying two things:
>
> (1) Material...I was told all the wood planks for the fence are "standard"
> therefore there is no need to specify what type. Well I am getting this
> pressure treated wood planks with all sorts of white knots. The installer
> told me it's normal. I looked around at other people's fence and I do not
> see the same knots ALL OVER...on may be a few, but not on all planks. See
> the pics:
The white spots on the knots is common on pine
> http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/P1000656.jpg
>
> http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/P1000654.jpg
>
> (2) The planks are also not straight, so it bends in here and bends out
> there, it just does not look good.
This is typical on PT pickets. When I sell a fence I warn my customers
about PT pickets warping and bending although this can be partially avoided
by using a 3 rail system rather than the 2 rail that you got.
>
> I asked him why he did not buy the preassembled 6'x8' fences at HD that
> seems to be of higher quality wood he said he prefer to build the fence
> himself with planks piece by piece.
I would not use preassembled sections either. Would you rather live in a
manufactured home or a job site built home.
>
> (3) Now when I am looking on the other side of the fence (inside), the
> runners are not straight, some of it crooked, some of it not level...see
> for
> yourself:
The guy building the fence has little experience. The give away are the
blocks of wood that each rail is sitting on and the 2 rails being attached
with the same orientation. The top rail should have the wide side on the
top and bottom and should actually be on top of the posts to help keep water
from soaking into the top of the posts.
>
> http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/P1000657.jpg
>
> There are also lots of gaps between planks, in many places I can stick my
> thumb through.
If the materials were new, this is to be expected. Pickets tend to be fresh
cut and are loaded with moisture. As they dry out they shrink. During
assemble every picket should be jamed against each other so that the gaps
will be minimal after shrinkage.
>
> I am not happy with this, yet there is nothing in the contract that says
> anything has to be straight and level, and planks need to be assembled in
> such a way to minimize gaps.
>
> or am I just too picky?
No, but you should have told him what you expected to start with.
"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote in message
> Swingman wrote:
> > One of the real tight ropes that you have to watch with many in the
building
> > industry these days is "retribution" ... it pays to be both careful, and
> > diplomatic, about how you handle this ... another benefit of having the
> > "code enforcement" guys to fall back on.
>
> Can you expand on this a bit? What kind of retribution?
Oh, just the petty stuff, like stopping up drains with cans/construction
debris, to urinating in wall spaces/insulation, to defecating under
insulation in attic/in wall spaces, to theft of material and equipment on
site by "friendlies", to the more subtle forms like purposely using wrong
lumber grade in areas like framing and flooring (particularly in areas where
doing so will show and it is too late to rectify), weakening of beams with
excessive use of nail guns, purposely ignoring nailing patterns/schedules
... to name just a few.
And I don't want to hear any warm fuzzy shit about cultural
"generalizations", because unless you've worked side by side with "macho" on
a daily basis, along with the retribution/vengeance extracted from real or
imagined slight of same, you ain't got a clue.
And, if you have yet to experience it in your area ... just wait awhile.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07
On Mon, 12 Mar 2007 13:53:08 GMT, "Leon"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> The guy building the fence has little experience. The give away are the
>> blocks of wood that each rail is sitting on and the 2 rails being attached
>> with the same orientation. The top rail should have the wide side on the
>> top and bottom and should actually be on top of the posts to help keep
>> water from soaking into the top of the posts.
>
>
>I should also add that with the top rail having the wide sides up and down,
>the lower rail/rails should have the narrow side facing up and down to add
>strength and help prevent what you are witnessing.
>
>My fences start with a 1x6 PT running along the ground nailed on the outside
>of the posts. This is followed immediately with 1 rail between the posts
>and its bottom about 3/4" lower than the top of the 1x6 and just behind the
>1x6. This rail is attached with its wide side facing the pickets. Half way
>up the posts another rail between the posts with the wide side facing the
>pickets. On top of the posts the 3rd rail with wide side facing up and
>covering the top of the posts. I prefer to use cedar pickets and set them
>on top of the bottom 1x6 PT rail jammed next to each other.
>
Would you happen to have a picture of that setup?
Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.
"I always wanted to be somebody...I should have been more specific..." - Lily Tomlin
On 18 Mar 2007 15:46:48 -0700, "Father Haskell"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Mar 18, 2:02 pm, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I would cut my losses right now. Fire this guy. It's not going to get any
>> better. What's the point of continuing to pay him for something that is
>> going to need to be redone anyway? Yes, it's going to cost you to have it
>> replaced but why put more money into a loosing situation?
>
>Figure what you *do* owe him, pay him not one penny more,
>and get the fuck out.
How 'bout, figure what you owe him, subtract what it's gonna cost you
to fix the mess he created, and pay him the difference.
Renata
Thanks for all the reply and comments.
Yes, I think I learned a lesson here. I have to check references from now
on. I usually do, but for fence installation I assume this is a "standard"
procedure and does not require too much skills so I got lazy...well I
learned.
I pointed this out to the installer about the bad wood and the bad
workmanship and he got pissed at me. He said in this world nothing is
perfect and that I am a perfectionist and asking for the impossible. He
said the material is out of his control because he bought a pallet of it and
the quality varies. I said it is his responsibility to look at the wood
during installation and when he saw pieces that are in such bad shape he
should have taken them back and not continue to install them. It is also
his responsibility to ensure his workers install everything plumb and level.
He said he has been installing fences for fifteen years and never has
someone accused him of poor workmanship.
He seemed more pissed off than I am!
and I am the one being stucked with a substandard fence!
MC
I think I would have decided to be picky about the first time I saw 2x4
runners resting on "pillow blocks", rather than 2x3's nailed to the posts,
on the outside. Also why only two (2) runners,vice three (3) . You have lost
a lot of integrity,plus pretty shoddy workmanship. I've put up (or repaired)
a lot of fences and sure wouldn't be happy with this one!!
As Swingman stated, If you have already paid for this, you may be "blowing
in the wind", literally.
Bill
"MiamiCuse" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I hired someone to put up a wood fence, and I am not too happy about the
> outcome. In the contract I specified how far the posts need to be placed,
> how deep to bury, using concrete cement, how high the fence needs to be
> etc...and all of it has to be to code anyways.
>
> But the outcome...well my fault for not specifying two things:
>
> (1) Material...I was told all the wood planks for the fence are "standard"
> therefore there is no need to specify what type. Well I am getting this
> pressure treated wood planks with all sorts of white knots. The installer
> told me it's normal. I looked around at other people's fence and I do not
> see the same knots ALL OVER...on may be a few, but not on all planks. See
> the pics:
>
> http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/P1000656.jpg
>
> http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/P1000654.jpg
>
> (2) The planks are also not straight, so it bends in here and bends out
> there, it just does not look good.
>
> I asked him why he did not buy the preassembled 6'x8' fences at HD that
> seems to be of higher quality wood he said he prefer to build the fence
> himself with planks piece by piece.
>
> (3) Now when I am looking on the other side of the fence (inside), the
> runners are not straight, some of it crooked, some of it not level...see
> for
> yourself:
>
> http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/P1000657.jpg
>
> There are also lots of gaps between planks, in many places I can stick my
> thumb through.
>
> I am not happy with this, yet there is nothing in the contract that says
> anything has to be straight and level, and planks need to be assembled in
> such a way to minimize gaps.
>
> or am I just too picky?
>
> MC
>
>
Here are some suggestions:
1. You are going to pay for the material anyway. Get the installer to
bid his labor and you will furnish the materials. If you wanted your
house painted and could get a good price on the paint, the same thing
applies. However, all that the workman can warrant is his labor, not
the material if it turns out to be unsatisfactory. Have the materials
delivered.
2. Learn how to write a contract properly. If it does not include a
provision for you to be satisfied with the finished result before he
gets a dime, then the contract was weak. If you provide the lumber,
pickets, nails and concrete, you should not need to advance any funds
to him.
3. Ask for references so that you can verify his reputation and
workmanship. If he cannot find a few local customers who will
recommend him, then you don't want him either.
The workman did not meet the terms of the contract, so he does not
get paid. Avoid negotiating about whether the job is bad (leads to an
argument) or you are too picky (suggests that your judgment is
emotionally based). Either he met/exceeded the contractual terms or he
did not. You DON'T want this to end up in court.
"tom (REMOVE) (Tom)" wrote in message
> He's right on one account - in the construction business nothing is
> perfect
The biggest problem in the construction business today is cultural. The
folks who do the work, while they are willing to work hard and long, are
culturally inclined to have more pride in other areas of life than their
work.
Couple that with piss poor supervision and you get that fence ... which
appears to have the same level of workmanship of many houses today.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07
Swingman wrote:
> Oh, just the petty stuff, like stopping up drains with cans/construction
> debris, to urinating in wall spaces/insulation, to defecating under
> insulation in attic/in wall spaces, to theft of material and equipment on
> site by "friendlies", to the more subtle forms like purposely using wrong
> lumber grade in areas like framing and flooring (particularly in areas where
> doing so will show and it is too late to rectify), weakening of beams with
> excessive use of nail guns, purposely ignoring nailing patterns/schedules
> ... to name just a few.
When I was a kid, a common trick to play on your buddies was to smear
Limburger cheese on the exhaust manifold of their cars when the manifold
was cold.
It happened to one guy who was a nasty sort.
Found out who had done his car and put fecal matter on that guy's manifold.
Ultimately both made a trip to the junk yard for replacement exhaust
manifolds.
Lew