Engineer's square

"Bill" wrote:

> If you wish to check that your TS blade is vertical, for instance,
> do you just use the base of the double square?

No tools required, just a piece of scrap and a miter gage.

Lew

dpb wrote:
> Morris Dovey wrote:
>
>> dpb wrote:
>>
>>> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>>
>>>> "CW" wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> No, he's not. Bend the wire like a Z. Put one end in the chuck.
>>>>> Bring the table up (or the quill down) until the free end of the
>>>>> wire comes close to touching the table and turn the spindle by
>>>>> hand. Keep creeping down until the end of the wire touches the
>>>>> table all the way around as you turn the spindle. The further the
>>>>> end of the wire is from the spindle centerline, the more accurate
>>>>> it will be.
>>>>
>>>> =================================
>>>>
>>>> Clever.
>>>
>>>
>>> Still relies on the center portion in the chuck to be perpendicular
>>> and straight else't the whole thing rotates around an inclined axis.
>>
>>
>> 'Scuse? It's going to rotate around the axis of the quill, or it isn't
>> going to rotate at all. :-D
>
>
> The point won't perfectly unless the vertical portion extended from the
> chuck is also aligned in that same axis. If there's any bend in it it
> will simply amplify that and you'd adjust the table to match.
>
> --
>

The distance from the chuck to the tip of the rod will remain constant,
allowing to square the table.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]

Bill wrote:
> How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS, BS, etc?
> Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of $39.99.
> I think the squares may also come in handy when installing a vise on my
> workbench to be (so I
> need a larget one for that?).
>
> A good graduated combination square would be useful too, no?
> If the engineers squares above were graduated I'd probably use them so much
> for general tasks that I'd end up messing them up/dropping them...
>
> At this point, I don't even have a good steel rule. Some of you have seen
> me around here long enough to know I am a beginner. What should I be
> collecting along these
> lines?
>
> Thanks,
> Bill
>
> P.S. Cleaned the (8') gutters today with a Sear ShopVac accessory ($19.99).
> Definitely a great tool
> for that chore! Since I recently had new roof installed, besides leaves
> they were full of grit and nails, etc.
> It blows leaves, cleans gutters, vacuums the car well. I never before got
> such satisfaction from a "vacuum cleaner"! : )
>
>

I'm cheap. For machine set up I use an inexpensive plastic drafting
triangles purchased at one of the local office supply places. I find
them more than adequate for woodworking.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]

"CW" wrote:

> No, he's not. Bend the wire like a Z. Put one end in the chuck.
> Bring the table up (or the quill down) until the free end of the
> wire comes close to touching the table and turn the spindle by hand.
> Keep creeping down until the end of the wire touches the table all
> the way around as you turn the spindle. The further the end of the
> wire is from the spindle centerline, the more accurate it will be.
=================================

Clever.

Lew

"CW" wrote:

> If the angle it forms with the rule is not square, return it or
> throw it away. If I were in your position, I would buy a GOOD
> combination square a they are very versatile. You won't find a good
> one at Home Depot. I would suggest Starrett (though I have a
> Mititoyo). There are several top end combo squares that are as
> accurate as a Starrett but Starrett will, at a very reasonable
> charge, fix it if you damage it. Expect to pay $75 to $100 for it.
> Seems expensive but well worth it. The cheap ones that you find at
> your local home center are near useless. When setting up a machine,
> you need accuracy. If the machine is not set up right, it will
> transfer this inaccuracy to the work piece. After making many
> pieces, all the errors will ad up to the point things won't fit.
> This is particularly bad for the less experienced as they may not
> know what the problem is, They will likely think it is something
> they're doing wrong when it really is a badly set up machine. You
> often here people say within 1/64 is close enough for woodwork. For
> some things it is but for many things, 1/64 off might as well be a
> mile.

Just curious.

Since most of the above applies to metal working machinery, how does
it transfer to wood working tolerances?

You can machine a metal piece +\- 0.001" and come back a month later
and find the piece to still be within spec assuming ambient
temperatures are similar.

Machine a piece of wood to the same +\- 0.001" in the morning and it
will be out of spec in the afternoon.

Basic reason any material that gets machined, gets glued up the same
day, at least in my boat yard.

IMHO, expecting to maintain wood tolerances greater than +\-1/64" over
any length of time is a stretch.

Lew

On Nov 23, 9:18=A0pm, "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote:
> How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS, BS, et=
c?
> Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of $39.99.
> I think the squares may also come in handy when installing a vise on my
> workbench to be (so I
> need a larget one for that?).
>
> A good graduated combination square would be useful too, no?
> If the engineers squares above were graduated I'd probably use them so mu=
ch
> for general tasks that I'd end up messing them up/dropping them...
>
> At this point, I don't even have a good steel rule. =A0Some of you have s=
een
> me around here long enough to know I am a beginner. =A0What should I be
> collecting along these
> lines?
>
> Thanks,
> Bill
>
> P.S. =A0Cleaned the (8') gutters today with a Sear ShopVac accessory ($19=
.99).
> Definitely a great tool
> for that chore! =A0Since I recently had new roof installed, besides leave=
s
> they were full of grit and nails, etc.
> It blows leaves, cleans gutters, vacuums the car well. =A0 I never before=
got
> such satisfaction from a "vacuum cleaner"! : )

A speed square. A Swanson Speed Square is a great way to get going.
Not too expensive either.
I'd start with one of those. It is the most used square in my shop.

On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 20:02:48 -0800 (PST), the infamous Robatoy
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:

>On Nov 23, 9:18 pm, "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS, BS, etc?
>> Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of $39.99.
>> I think the squares may also come in handy when installing a vise on my
>> workbench to be (so I
>> need a larget one for that?).
>>
>> A good graduated combination square would be useful too, no?
>> If the engineers squares above were graduated I'd probably use them so much
>> for general tasks that I'd end up messing them up/dropping them...
>>
>> At this point, I don't even have a good steel rule.  Some of you have seen
>> me around here long enough to know I am a beginner.  What should I be
>> collecting along these
>> lines?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Bill
>>
>> P.S.  Cleaned the (8') gutters today with a Sear ShopVac accessory ($19.99).
>> Definitely a great tool
>> for that chore!  Since I recently had new roof installed, besides leaves
>> they were full of grit and nails, etc.
>> It blows leaves, cleans gutters, vacuums the car well.   I never before got
>> such satisfaction from a "vacuum cleaner"! : )
>
>A speed square. A Swanson Speed Square is a great way to get going.
>Not too expensive either.
>I'd start with one of those. It is the most used square in my shop.

That's my mainstay in the field. In the shop, the little pair of
4-inchers from LVT do it for me quite often (but I keep a SSS in the
shop, too.)

--
It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare;
it is because we do not dare that they are difficult.
-- Seneca

On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 06:56:42 -0500, J. Clarke wrote:

> Face it, there's nothing magic
> about machining two pieces of steel flat and sticking them together at
> right angles--they can do that as well in India or China as they do in
> the US and Japan and the EU.

I've got one of the first squares from Stanley Rule and Level Company.
They put the handle and the blade in a jig and poured molten metal into a
matching set of holes. After all these years, it's still right on!

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

Bill wrote:

> At this point, I don't even have a good steel rule. Some of you have
> seen me around here long enough to know I am a beginner. What should
> I be collecting along these
> lines?

I found this to be one of the most useful measuring/marking tools I've
acquired--I use it constantly.

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=44279&cat=1,42936

On Mon, 30 Nov 2009 07:08:01 -0500, Bruce Barnett
<[email protected]> wrote:

>-MIKE- <[email protected]> writes:
>
>>> FWIW, The TS Aligner Jr can do several things
>>> Mitre Gauge alignment
>>> Sliding Table alignment
>>> Spindle alignment on a drill press
>>> Jointer blade height
>>>
>>
>> The one I made for 15 bucks does all that.
>> It's a dial indicator on a stick, there's nothing ingenious about that. :-)
>
>Interesting. Is there any write-up? For instance, how do you get the
>table of a drill press to be square to the spindle?


For testing drill press runout you can, with the power cord unplugged,
use a coat hanger chucked in the drill press such that it lightly
touches the drill press table top. When it is even all the way
around, the spindle is perpendicular to the table top. No special
tools needed!

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> dpb wrote:
>> Phisherman wrote:
>> ...
>>> For testing drill press runout you can, with the power cord
>>> unplugged, use a coat hanger chucked in the drill press such that it
>>> lightly touches the drill press table top. When it is even all the
>>> way around, the spindle is perpendicular to the table top. No
>>> special tools needed!
>>
>> ??? I've never seen a precision-enough coat hanger that any part of
>> it would be straight/level enough in reference to any other that it
>> would be of any use as a measuring tool...
>>
>> How does this work, exactly, again?????
>
> It's the same procedure as leveling the table on an RAS to the blade. You
> can use a coat hanger, a dowel, anything that gives you a reference
> height.
>
> He's assuming you have a radial drill press or a table that moves
> laterally
> and in and out I think.
>
>

No, he's not. Bend the wire like a Z. Put one end in the chuck. Bring the
table up (or the quill down) until the free end of the wire comes close to
touching the table and turn the spindle by hand. Keep creeping down until
the end of the wire touches the table all the way around as you turn the
spindle. The further the end of the wire is from the spindle centerline, the
more accurate it will be.

On Nov 25, 2:39=A0am, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Bruce Barnett" <[email protected]> wrote in
> > messagenews:[email protected]...
> >> "Bill" <[email protected]> writes:
>
> >>> How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS, BS=
,
> >>> etc?
> >>> Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of $39.99.
>
> >> I found that a nice 4" double square is a pleasure to use, and very
> >> handy.
> >> They usually go for $40, but I've seen sales for $20.
>
> >> I use that more than a fixed engineering square.
>
> > If you wish to check that your TS blade is vertical, for instance, do y=
ou
> > just use the base of the double square?
> > It would appear that the base has the potential to have more "integrity=
"
> > than the angle it forms with the rule.
>
> If the angle it forms with the rule is not square, return it or throw it
> away. If I were in your position, I would buy a GOOD combination square a
> they are very versatile. You won't find a good one at Home Depot. I would
> suggest Starrett (though I have a Mititoyo). There are several top end co=
mbo
> squares that are as accurate as a Starrett but Starrett will, at a very
> reasonable charge, fix it if you damage it. Expect to pay $75 to $100 for
> it. Seems expensive but well worth it. The cheap ones that you find at yo=
ur
> local home center are near useless. When setting up a machine, you need
> accuracy. If the machine is not set up right, it will transfer this
> inaccuracy to the work piece. After making many pieces, all the errors wi=
ll
> ad up to the point things won't fit. This is particularly bad for the les=
s
> experienced as they may not know what the problem is, They will likely th=
ink
> it is something they're doing wrong when it really is a badly set up
> machine. You often here people say within 1/64 is close enough for woodwo=
rk.
> For some things it is but for many things, 1/64 off might as well be a mi=
le.- Hide quoted text -

Where do you rate a proper dovetail?

"Ed Bennett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

When is this group going to learn that attempting any discussion with Ed
Bennet will only end up in long, pointless diatribes? This guy makes a good
product, but cannot accept anything less than his view of how things should
be done. It just goes round and round...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Dec 2, 1:28=A0am, Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
> > Ed Bennett wrote:
> >> Honestly, I can't understand why people go to such extremes to avoid
> >> dial indicators. =A0
> > Honestly Ed, I'm not trying to be a dick, but yours is really not much
> > more than a dial indicator on a stick, certainly not $100 more than a
> > stick. =A0:-)
>
> Dial indicators on a stick aren't all bad. I suggest something like
>
> =A0 =A0http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=3DSW625-1300
>
> (on sale for $19.95, click on the "Master Catalog Page" link for a photo
> of the whole thing.
>
> Unscrew the vertical support from the base, lower the cross-arm, and
> chuck it up in your (unplugged) drill press. Then raise the table until
> the indicator touches the table.
>
> Turn the chuck by hand and adjust until you get the same reading all the
> way around.
>
> Use the base as a refrigerator magnet. Send me the point set. :)
>
> --
> Morris Dovey
> DeSoto Solar
> DeSoto, Iowa USAhttp://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

That's how set the table/quill alignment. 'Cept I lay down a slab of
quartz down on the table to give the DI a nice smooth ride.

On Dec 2, 3:52 pm, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:

> None of my bits are tapered.
> I've checked my drillpress and corrected for runout.
> You spin the chuck or use straight piece of steel rod.
> Nothing you said is an issue.

You asked, I answered. As I said, there are ways to mitigate the
effects of these problems. If you are aware of them, and you know
that they adversely affect the accuracy of the results, then isn't it
somewhat disingenuous not to mention them when you advocate this
technique? Of course, asking the question itself ("why is it goofy?")
would seem to indicate that you didn't know the answer (i.e. weren't
aware of the shortcomings).

> I never said a dial wasn't superior... just not necessary.

And, like I said, I'm sure that it's "not necessary" for the sort of
work that you do. But don't presume to speak for others and the work
that they do. Maybe someone needs the added accuracy - or maybe they
just don't have a lot of time to waste goofing around with trial and
error methods of woodworking. They would prefer to know that their
drill press spindle is squared up to the table without having to worry
about all the possible sources of error that might exist.

> This is a woodworking group. Not a NASA machinists' group.

Geez, not the "NASA" argument! Just about every time this topic comes
up someone has to make a citation to NASA. If you can't draw on logic
and reason, then try a bit of hyperbole, right? So, are you saying
that only a "NASA machinists' group" can specify the use of dial
indicators to align a drill press? I hate to disappoint you but
millions of people use dial indicators every day and they don't all
work at NASA. Dial indicators are not specialty tools intended only
for the elite few who work on the cutting edge of technology. They
are as common as dirt in almost every industry (including many
woodworking shops).

> I don't have nano settings on any tool I use.

This is actually a very good argument for the use of a dial
indicator. How else are you going to make fine adjustments and
precise alignments? Trial and error? Talk about goofy!

(RE: drilling a hole from opposite sides)
>
> Yes, I do all that and my machinists square is accurate enough.
>

Hmmm... you go from "I don't know of any situation..." to "I do all
that...". Seems like a rather large leap to me.

We're not talking about the accuracy of your machinist's square.
We're talking about a goofy method for drill press alignment. In case
you didn't notice, the shortcomings that I pointed out have nothing to
do with the accuracy of the square.

I realize that the "square" method for drill press alignment can be
found in countless books, magazines, and TV shows. It's quite
popular. And, in all those references there's not a single mention of
its shortcomings (which you acknowledge). This should tell you
something about the expertise of the popular media.

(RE: cost of a TS-Aligner)
> I'm aware of all those things.

Ya, right. Sure you are. Just like you knew all about the
shortcomings of using a square to align a drill press (but couldn't
figure out why it was goofy). Just like you drill holes from opposite
sides and they easily meet in the middle. It's funny, but you only
seem to know these things *AFTER* they are pointed out to you. The
time to demonstrate some expertise is before you criticize things that
you clearly don't understand. If you really understood what goes into
the cost of a TS-Aligner, and the functions that it provides, then you
would have had nothing critical to say about my pricing.

> I honestly hope you succeed and sell a
> bunch.
> I know there are people who like to pay a bunch of money for stuff.

Is that why you have been so critical? Talk about being
disingenuous. Why did you pay money for your "engineer's square"?
Assuming you actually have a drill press, why did you pay money for
it? Can't you manage to do high quality woodworking without these
"shiny tools"? Or, maybe you are unwilling or unable to make your own
versions of these tools. Why pay so much for a square? It seems like
such a simple tool that anybody could make one - right? What a ripoff
- all these square makers charge way more than it's worth. Or, maybe
you would be willing to entertain the idea that there's more to a
square than you can get by looking at a photo.

> There have always been people making shiny tools and claiming they are
> next best thing, implying you can't do your best without it, trying to
> make you fell inferior for not joining their club.

I'm thinking that this statement reveals more than you wanted it to.
Nobody's trying to make you feel inferior. Nobody's saying that you
can't do your best without a particular dial indicator jig. There is
no "club" here that needs to be joined. You will have to look to
yourself about any feelings of insecurity you have on this topic.
Remember, you brought up the issues with commercially made dial
indicator jigs - not me.

We're talking about why the use of a square to align a drill press is
goofy. I'm pointing out the problems with this technique and you are
supposedly defending it. Apparently there isn't much for you to say
because your defense has migrated to criticism of commercially made
dial indicator jigs - mine in particular. I didn't tell anybody that
they had to have one of my jigs, I just said that they should go out
and get a dial indicator.

Be careful that you don't try to make others feel inferior because
they choose to buy a dial indicator jig and don't join your "I made it
myself" club. You're always going to meet people who would rather buy
than make their own. And, you'll always know people who are capable
of making a lot more in their shop than you ever could. Everyone has
a reason to be looking down their noses at someone else.

> And there have and always will be guys who don't fall for the hype.
> Guys who make their own jigs and fixtures, who don't pay hundreds for
> every new, shiny, thingamajig that shows up in the latest woodworking
> magazine. These same guys continue to make, beautiful, even stunning
> furniture and cabinets and works of art.... all without the shiny
> thingamajigs.

Hype? Hmmm....that's somewhat of a wild generalization. So, let's
see your dial indicator jig. I assume that you put yourself into this
category of "guys who make their own jigs and fixtures" and are proud
of your accomplishment. I invited you to submit your jig as a good
example of what someone can do in their own shop. Where's the beef?
Let's compare jigs so that everyone can see where the hype really is.
Or, maybe you would be more inclined to admit that it's nice to be
able to buy some things that are just impossible or impractical for
you to make on your own. Maybe you would like to stop looking down
your nose at people who value their time more than the cost of a
commercially made dial indicator jig.

> Guys were doing it all with their hands, before electricity, and they
> didn't have dial indicators. How on earth do they do it? :-)

I hate to disappoint you, but dial indicators have been around since
"before electricity". James Watt (inventor of the modern steam
engine) is often credited with the invention of the dial indicator in
1772. But, your point is well made. Examples of fine woodworking
date back to the Egyptian empire. It may not have occurred to you,
but the argument applies equally to the drill press and that
"engineer's square" of yours. If you are so inclined, you can try
your hand at shaving wood with rocks and copper edged tools. How on
Earth did they ever drill holes without drill bits? All of the modern
tools and machinery don't enable high quality craftsmanship; they just
make it easier and faster.

The problem with being a Luddite is its inherent hypocrisy. You come
up with an imaginary period that you think is some sort of idealistic
utopia and decide that every advancement after that is an evil
corruption of the art. But the line you draw is completely
arbitrary. Some other Luddite has a different idealistic utopia in
mind and thinks your ideas are a corruption of the art. Ultimately
both deny progress. In case you didn't notice, the Luddites didn't
win the industrial revolution.

Ed Bennett

On Dec 2, 6:33=A0pm, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> Let sleeping dogs lie ... a word to the wise.
>
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/dOUG.jpg

On Dec 1, 6:40 pm, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
> Ed Bennett wrote:
> > Not much different from the goofy idea of
> > holding a square up against a drill bit.
>
> How is that goofy?

When you do this, you assume that the drill bit is straight and not
ground with a taper. You also assume that the drill chuck and/or the
spindle have no runout (i.e. are not bent). You also assume that you
can reliably site a tiny gap between the square and an object that has
no flat gauging surface. The drill bit has flutes, cutting edges with
relief angles, etc. Things can be done to mitigate these sources of
error but using a dial indicator will always be a superior method.

> We're talking woodworking, here.

Oh, so why bother at all? Why not just trust the angle scale on the
machine and be done with it. Heck, why even bother with a square.
It's only wood - just eyeball the thing and get on with it!

> If the square works well enough for me to draw a guide line through a
> block of wood I'm intent on boring a hole though, and I'm laying said
> block on the table, why is it goofy to use the same square to make sure
> the drill bit is coming down square to the table.

If you are content with the quality and accuracy obtained by cutting
to (or drilling from) pencil lines, then I suppose I stand
corrected. For you, and the sort of work that you do, using a square
against a drill bit isn't goofy.

> I'm not aware of any situation in which I need a bolt or screw to travel
> straight down 6 or 8 inches into a piece of furniture with an accuracy
> of +/- 2 thousandths of an inch.

People avoid all sorts of projects that challenge their skills. Would
you ever attempt to drill a hole from opposite sides with the intent
that they meet in the middle? I'm not talking about matching to
within a couple of thousandths, just close enough to insert a close
fitting tube or rod that needs to move or rotate freely. I have a
friend who makes pens and he's nuts about his hole drilling accuracy.

> > Honestly, I can't understand why people go to such extremes to avoid
> > dial indicators.
>
> I have one and I use it.
> I made my table saw aligner for about 15 bucks and an hour's time.

That's great! So, now you know that a dial indicator can be used for
more than just simple blade and fence alignment. You have acquired
new skills and no longer need to defend inferior alignment techniques
that are prone to all sorts of error.

BTW, I'm looking for some good "real life" examples of home made
alignment jigs for a new web site I'm getting ready to launch. The
jig I choose will be featured prominently as THE standard that all
commercial dial indicator jigs will be compared to. The inventor will
be given full credit for his/her design and It will be a very positive
experience. It could end up being known world-wide as "Mike's dial
indicator jig" (or it could be named after another inventor, who
knows). Just send me photos and a write-up saying how it is
constructed (i.e. plans).

> Honestly Ed, I'm not trying to be a dick, but yours is really not much
> more than a dial indicator on a stick, certainly not $100 more than a
> stick. :-)

It must come naturally. It appears to be effortless on your part.
It's obvious that you have taken a few casual glances at some photos
and have decided, without any understanding or further investigation,
that you know all about my TS-Aligner products. Don't worry, a lot of
people do exactly that and draw the same uninformed conclusions. Now
you know why it reminds me so much of illiteracy.

I'm guessing here, but I suppose it would be safe to conclude that you
don't have any idea how much it costs to manufacture something like a
TS-Aligner or what it takes run a business, promote products, and
support a large user base. You probably wouldn't think that your own
personal time is completely worthless. You certainly wouldn't accept
employment for no pay. But, you seem to think that I should. I'll
tell you what I tell everyone who makes such sweeping (and uninformed)
generalizations about cost. I'll send you a set of drawings and you
go find out how much it costs. Get quotes from domestic machine
shops, source materials and parts, toss in the labor, facilities, and
utilities costs, and then see how much is left over between my price
and your cost. I would bet the world that your cost comes in higher
than my selling price. I'm quite sure that the machining alone will
put your cost under water.

> BTW, I bet you'd sell more if you let people see those videos without
> having to register. It may help clue people in to whatever it is they do
> to make them worth all that money.

Actually, I did it your way for many, many years. I sell more now.
People who are serious about buying a dial indicator jig don't have a
problem signing up for access to premium information sources (the TS-
Aligner videos, tablesawalignment.com, etc.). It's all free, but you
do have to sign up.

I hope that this answers all of your questions.

Thanks,
Ed Bennett

"dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>
> The point isn't the quill itself bent, it's finding a piece of hanger wire
> that isn't... :)
>
> Whatever error there is in it is amplified by the radius or rotation...
>
> The idea is ok, it's the implementation that has to be good to get it to
> work in practice....
>
> --


Machinists have been doing it this way for at least 150 years. I, myself,
have done it hundreds of times (yes, I am a machinist).
It doesn't even matter if the chuck or spindle is bent, this method will get
the table perpendicular to the spindles axis of rotation.

"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Bruce Barnett" <[email protected]> wrote in
> message news:[email protected]...
>> "Bill" <[email protected]> writes:
>>
>>> How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS, BS,
>>> etc?
>>> Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of $39.99.
>>
>> I found that a nice 4" double square is a pleasure to use, and very
>> handy.
>> They usually go for $40, but I've seen sales for $20.
>>
>> I use that more than a fixed engineering square.
>
>
> If you wish to check that your TS blade is vertical, for instance, do you
> just use the base of the double square?
> It would appear that the base has the potential to have more "integrity"
> than the angle it forms with the rule.


If the angle it forms with the rule is not square, return it or throw it
away. If I were in your position, I would buy a GOOD combination square a
they are very versatile. You won't find a good one at Home Depot. I would
suggest Starrett (though I have a Mititoyo). There are several top end combo
squares that are as accurate as a Starrett but Starrett will, at a very
reasonable charge, fix it if you damage it. Expect to pay $75 to $100 for
it. Seems expensive but well worth it. The cheap ones that you find at your
local home center are near useless. When setting up a machine, you need
accuracy. If the machine is not set up right, it will transfer this
inaccuracy to the work piece. After making many pieces, all the errors will
ad up to the point things won't fit. This is particularly bad for the less
experienced as they may not know what the problem is, They will likely think
it is something they're doing wrong when it really is a badly set up
machine. You often here people say within 1/64 is close enough for woodwork.
For some things it is but for many things, 1/64 off might as well be a mile.

dpb wrote:
> Phisherman wrote:
> ...
>> For testing drill press runout you can, with the power cord unplugged,
>> use a coat hanger chucked in the drill press such that it lightly
>> touches the drill press table top. When it is even all the way
>> around, the spindle is perpendicular to the table top. No special
>> tools needed!
>
> ??? I've never seen a precision-enough coat hanger that any part of it
> would be straight/level enough in reference to any other that it would
> be of any use as a measuring tool...
>
> How does this work, exactly, again?????
>
> --
The hanger is crooked enough that it touches the table at least several
inches from the center point or the point that straight rod in the
chuck would be. As you rotate the chuck by hand, the tip of he hanger
should just touch the table (in a circle) if the table is level. It's
kind of like the process of leveling a RAS table by removing the blade
and setting the bevel with the arbor straight own, then checking that
the arbor just touches the table as he arm is swung and the motor pulled
along the arm.

"Ed Bennett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> (RE: cost of a TS-Aligner)
>> I'm aware of all those things.
>

>
> Ed Bennett

Well, Ed, I bet you won't remember, but Don Peterson and I both
tested and commented on the TS-Aligner when you first introduced
it. Back then, I had my shop and a fairly new PM-66 TS. I'd
spent quite some time aligning the fence and table using the old
method of a square, reversing cuts etc. Don had used the aligner
first, then shipped it to me. I spent a couple hours with it and
only had praise for it. In that couple hours, I made those "nano"
adjustments that resulted in some of the most pleasing output I'd
ever done. It was a great thing then, and I'm sure that with the
refinements you've made over the years, it's a better thing now.


--
Nonny

What does it mean when drool runs
out of both sides of a drunken
Congressman's mouth?

The floor is level.

-MIKE- wrote:

> I wish you good luck and success in you endeavors. Sincerely.

What'd I say ... :)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Bill wrote:

> How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS, BS,
> etc? Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of $39.99.

I've found engineer squares quite useful for machine setup. I carry a 2"
one in my shop apron for quick double-checks on various settings such as
jointer fence, etc.


> I think the squares may also come in handy when installing a vise on my
> workbench to be (so I
> need a larget one for that?).

Probably not so much. A good tri-square (combination square) would work
better

>
> A good graduated combination square would be useful too, no?

Probably would recommend one of them first or in combination with the
engineers squares


> If the engineers squares above were graduated I'd probably use them so
> much for general tasks that I'd end up messing them up/dropping them...
>

They wouldn't be engineers squares if they were graduated.

Dropping them is definitely not a good thing.



> At this point, I don't even have a good steel rule. Some of you have seen
> me around here long enough to know I am a beginner. What should I be
> collecting along these
> lines?
>
> Thanks,
> Bill

IMO, the set of engineer squares, with a combination square, and a good
straight-edge are a good start.


>

--

There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage

Rob Leatham

On Nov 24, 8:11=A0am, Larry Jaques <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com>
wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 20:02:48 -0800 (PST), the infamous Robatoy
> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Nov 23, 9:18=A0pm, "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS, BS,=
etc?
> >> Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of $39.99.
> >> I think the squares may also come in handy when installing a vise on m=
y
> >> workbench to be (so I
> >> need a larget one for that?).
>
> >> A good graduated combination square would be useful too, no?
> >> If the engineers squares above were graduated I'd probably use them so=
much
> >> for general tasks that I'd end up messing them up/dropping them...
>
> >> At this point, I don't even have a good steel rule. =A0Some of you hav=
e seen
> >> me around here long enough to know I am a beginner. =A0What should I b=
e
> >> collecting along these
> >> lines?
>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Bill
>
> >> P.S. =A0Cleaned the (8') gutters today with a Sear ShopVac accessory (=
$19.99).
> >> Definitely a great tool
> >> for that chore! =A0Since I recently had new roof installed, besides le=
aves
> >> they were full of grit and nails, etc.
> >> It blows leaves, cleans gutters, vacuums the car well. =A0 I never bef=
ore got
> >> such satisfaction from a "vacuum cleaner"! : )
>
> >A speed square. A Swanson Speed Square is a great way to get going.
> >Not too expensive either.
> >I'd start with one of those. It is the most used square in my shop.
>
> That's my mainstay in the field. In the shop, the little pair of
> 4-inchers from LVT do it for me quite often (but I keep a SSS in the
> shop, too.)
>
> --
> It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare;
> it is because we do not dare that they are difficult.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 -- Seneca

Bill mentioned he was a relatively new at this, so my suggestion was
based on cheap. not-too-bad accuracy, easy to handle.
A standard combo square is not that much more accurate IMHO unless you
drop some serious coin, but they make a fine depth gauge as well.
For tablesaw set up etc, a 6" machinist square does it all for me.
If more than a couple of thou mess you up, use thicker glue. <G>

"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Joe wrote:
>> "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>> You'll never regret buying a good square. However, they're only good 'til
>> the first drop, so consider how (and where) you'll be using it. For the
>> purposes you describe, I don't think you can go wrong with the Groz. If
>> you're still not sure, buy the Groz, take it to your shop and see how
>> much or if it's off square, and if that doesn't meet with your minimum
>> requirements, take it back and tell them it's not square and step up to
>> the Starett.
>
>
> The only "test" I can think of is the one I learned for a carpenter's
> square: You use the square to draw a perpendicular line to the edge of a
> board, then you flip the square over and draw another line. The lines
> should be the same or parallel. Repeat several times for higher
> confidence. How does that test measure-up here???
>
> Bill

that's the test I would use, but with a very sharp marking knife instead of
a pencil.

jc

On Nov 23, 10:52=A0pm, "BobS" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
>
>
> > How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS,
> > BS, etc?
> > Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of $39.99.
> > I think the squares may also come in handy when installing a vise on
> > my workbench to be (so I
> > need a larget one for that?).
>
> > A good graduated combination square would be useful too, no?
> > If the engineers squares above were graduated I'd probably use them
> > so much
> > for general tasks that I'd end up messing them up/dropping them...
>
> > At this point, I don't even have a good steel rule. =A0Some of you have
> > seen
> > me around here long enough to know I am a beginner. =A0What should I be
> > collecting along these
> > lines?
>
> > Thanks,
> > Bill
>
> Bill,
>
> While the engineers squares at this price point are somewhat accurate,
> save your money and get a Starrett Try Square (~$75) and build a nice
> box for it. =A0It is accurate enough (2 thou / 12") for anything you'll
> align in your shop or want to measure. It will also last you a lifetime
> and be a great tool to give to your grandson/daughter one of these
> days. (that's when the wheels on the walker are worn flat...;-)

Buy the best you can afford *now*, this is the one tool that
will make or break your every project. One good Starrett is
worth 20 cheap Swansons.

Bought one cheap Swanson 6" square for jobsite work, $5.00.
Actually dead-on accurate out of the package, but the
aluminum parts wore out within 6 months. Tossed the stock,
saved the blade and scriber. Shiny blade was made much
more readable by lightly sanding it with 320 and a shot of oil.

On Dec 1, 4:56=A0am, Phisherman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> For testing drill press runout you can, with the power cord unplugged,
> use a coat hanger chucked in the drill press such that it lightly
> touches the drill press table top. =A0When it is even all the way
> around, the spindle is perpendicular to the table top. =A0 No special
> tools needed!

Very entertaining thread! Thanks guys. With all the stress and
anxiety these days, I really appreciate a good laugh every now and
then.

Yep, all you need to do is bend up a wire coat-hanger and sweep the
drill press table with it's tip. Keeping in mind that it's going to
be all springy and bouncy, if you're good at making such subjective
"hear the scrape" judgments, then you can get adequate results.
Primitive, but feasible. Not much different from the goofy idea of
holding a square up against a drill bit.

Honestly, I can't understand why people go to such extremes to avoid
dial indicators. It reminds me of the guy who says "I don't need to
know how to read; I learn all I need to know by watching TV and
listening to the radio." The excuses for some people's aversion to
dial indicators often sounds just like the ignorant excuses that
illiterate people use to justify their situation. They put themselves
thorough all sorts of absurd and convoluted procedures so that they
can cope in a world where everyone else can read. A bent up coat
hanger? Geez! Cough up the $10-$15 for a dial indicator and learn
some useful skills.

<shameless_plug>
You'll find all you need to know about using dial indicators on your
table saw at:

http://www.tablesawalignment.com

Sign up today!
</shameless_plug>

I completely understand some people's reaction to most dial indicator
jigs on the market today. Heck, the vast majority do nothing more
than a simple dial indicator on a stick. Some do even less! It
amazes me what some people sell, but it amazes me even more that
people buy it.

Thanks,
Ed Bennett
[email protected]

On 11/24/2009 01:46 PM, Bill wrote:

> The only "test" I can think of is the one I learned for a carpenter's
> square: You use the square to draw a perpendicular line to the edge of a
> board, then you flip the square over and draw another line. The lines
> should be the same or parallel. Repeat several times for higher
> confidence. How does that test measure-up here???

If you don't already have a known-good square, then that test works.
You need to make sure that the edge you're referencing the square
against is straight. If you're using a wooden surface, a knife will
give a finer line than a pencil.

If you've got a known-good square (a drafting triangle works fine) then
take it and the one being tested and place them both facing each other
against a known-straight edge. Hold it up against a light and see how
big the gap (if any) is between the two blades.

Chris

On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 22:15:38 -0500, "Bill" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>As well-regarded (and relatively fragile) as the Starrett combination
>squares are, how come they don't sell them in a decent case (or do they?)?
>Was looking at C33H-12-4R, and dreweling over C434-12-4R...circle-divider be
>darned, there's something about that protractor!! ; ) Maybe I need a
>konk in the head with a square! Maybe I'd see Starretts??? ::cough
>cough::
>
>Bill
>

If it were stored in a box/case all the time, it would not get used. I
use my Starrett combo more frequently than I though I would, making it
an even better buy.

"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS,
> BS, etc?
> Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of $39.99.
> I think the squares may also come in handy when installing a vise on
> my workbench to be (so I
> need a larget one for that?).
>
> A good graduated combination square would be useful too, no?
> If the engineers squares above were graduated I'd probably use them
> so much
> for general tasks that I'd end up messing them up/dropping them...
>
> At this point, I don't even have a good steel rule. Some of you have
> seen
> me around here long enough to know I am a beginner. What should I be
> collecting along these
> lines?
>
> Thanks,
> Bill


Bill,

While the engineers squares at this price point are somewhat accurate,
save your money and get a Starrett Try Square (~$75) and build a nice
box for it. It is accurate enough (2 thou / 12") for anything you'll
align in your shop or want to measure. It will also last you a lifetime
and be a great tool to give to your grandson/daughter one of these
days. (that's when the wheels on the walker are worn flat...;-)

Bob S.

"BobS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS, BS,
>> etc?
>> Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of $39.99.
>> I think the squares may also come in handy when installing a vise on my
>> workbench to be (so I
>> need a larget one for that?).
>>
>> A good graduated combination square would be useful too, no?
>> If the engineers squares above were graduated I'd probably use them so
>> much
>> for general tasks that I'd end up messing them up/dropping them...
>>
>> At this point, I don't even have a good steel rule. Some of you have
>> seen
>> me around here long enough to know I am a beginner. What should I be
>> collecting along these
>> lines?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Bill
>
>
> Bill,
>
> While the engineers squares at this price point are somewhat accurate,
> save your money and get a Starrett Try Square (~$75) and build a nice box
> for it. It is accurate enough (2 thou / 12") for anything you'll align in
> your shop or want to measure. It will also last you a lifetime and be a
> great tool to give to your grandson/daughter one of these days. (that's
> when the wheels on the walker are worn flat...;-)
>
> Bob S.


Thank you, Bob S.
I assume you mean "Reliable Try-Square, No. 61" (which is 6" in length).
Getting-by with one would be just getting by, no?

Starrett sure has a dizzying arrays of fine products (starret.com), and I
thank
you for introducing me to them. However, in view of the "big picture" I
think I may
be wise to buy the Groz squares (or similar) and put the leftover $ towards
one of many
other tools that I need. Well, who knows, maybe I'll find one on sale! : )

Bill

>
> I think that's the same set I bought at Woodcraft. The precision of
> (IIRC) 0.0006" is marked on the blades, but no indication of whether
> that's overall or per inch. In either case, I set the 6" up against a
> pricey machinists square on a flat surface and there was absolutely no
> light between the blades. I'm happy.
>

If it only says .0006, it's per inch, not total error.

Larry Blanchard wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:18:25 -0500, Bill wrote:
>
>> How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS,
>> BS, etc? Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of
>> $39.99. I think the squares may also come in handy when installing a
>> vise on my workbench to be (so I
>> need a larget one for that?).
>
> I think that's the same set I bought at Woodcraft. The precision of
> (IIRC) 0.0006" is marked on the blades, but no indication of whether
> that's overall or per inch. In either case, I set the 6" up against a
> pricey machinists square on a flat surface and there was absolutely no
> light between the blades. I'm happy.

The precision should be per inch.

While they are on the lower end of accuracy for squares used for setting up
metal cutting tools, their precision goes beyond anything that is likely to
be detectable in woodworking. Face it, there's nothing magic about
machining two pieces of steel flat and sticking them together at right
angles--they can do that as well in India or China as they do in the US and
Japan and the EU.

The place to spend the bucks is with a combination square--there the cheap
ones usually aren't square out of the box and if they are they don't stay
square very long--since they have moving parts, maintaining precision is
more difficult than for something that is permanently welded/brazed. I
finally spent the bucks for a Starrett and I'm glad I did. Browne & Sharpe
and Mitutoyo also make good ones.

"Larry Blanchard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:18:25 -0500, Bill wrote:
>
>> How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS,
>> BS,
>> etc? Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of
>> $39.99. I
>> think the squares may also come in handy when installing a vise on
>> my
>> workbench to be (so I
>> need a larget one for that?).
>
> I think that's the same set I bought at Woodcraft. The precision of
> (IIRC) 0.0006" is marked on the blades, but no indication of whether
> that's overall or per inch. In either case, I set the 6" up against
> a
> pricey machinists square on a flat surface and there was absolutely
> no
> light between the blades. I'm happy.
>

Accuracy of that double square is stated as " better than 0.001" per
inch"

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=44279&cat=1,42936

Bob S.

Nova wrote:
> I'm cheap. For machine set up I use an inexpensive plastic drafting
> triangles purchased at one of the local office supply places. I find
> them more than adequate for woodworking.
>

And you never risk dulling a tooth or blade?


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

BobS wrote:
> "Larry Blanchard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:18:25 -0500, Bill wrote:
>>
>>> How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS,
>>> BS,
>>> etc? Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of
>>> $39.99. I
>>> think the squares may also come in handy when installing a vise on
>>> my
>>> workbench to be (so I
>>> need a larget one for that?).

>> I think that's the same set I bought at Woodcraft. The precision of
>> (IIRC) 0.0006" is marked on the blades, but no indication of whether
>> that's overall or per inch. In either case, I set the 6" up against
>> a
>> pricey machinists square on a flat surface and there was absolutely
>> no
>> light between the blades. I'm happy.


A few years ago, long before I found this forum, I bought two
carpenter's squares, 24" and 8", believing that I was starting my
woodworking tool collection. I assume they may be good for deciding
flatness and maybe cutting some square (replacement) pieces of drywall
and as a replacement for a steel rule (?). I anticipated using them
as a try square on wood, but from what I've read here they don't make
the grade.. Does anyone here use carpenters squares for anything
(besides stairways and roofs)? Probably precise enough to use on
outdoor furniture, huh--or better than that?

Bill

Joe wrote:
> "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message

> You'll never regret buying a good square. However, they're only good 'til
> the first drop, so consider how (and where) you'll be using it. For the
> purposes you describe, I don't think you can go wrong with the Groz. If
> you're still not sure, buy the Groz, take it to your shop and see how much
> or if it's off square, and if that doesn't meet with your minimum
> requirements, take it back and tell them it's not square and step up to the
> Starett.
>


The only "test" I can think of is the one I learned for a carpenter's
square: You use the square to draw a perpendicular line to the edge of a
board, then you flip the square over and draw another line. The lines
should be the same or parallel. Repeat several times for higher
confidence. How does that test measure-up here???

Bill

"Bruce Barnett" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
> "Bill" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>> How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS, BS,
>> etc?
>> Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of $39.99.
>
> I found that a nice 4" double square is a pleasure to use, and very handy.
> They usually go for $40, but I've seen sales for $20.
>
> I use that more than a fixed engineering square.


If you wish to check that your TS blade is vertical, for instance, do you
just use the base of the double square?
It would appear that the base has the potential to have more "integrity"
than the angle it forms with the rule.
I like that it is graduated--seems very usable indeed.

My thanks to everyone who has helped with this thread!

Bill

"Bruce Barnett" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
> "Bill" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>> "Bruce Barnett" <[email protected]> wrote in
>> message news:[email protected]...
>>> I found that a nice 4" double square is a pleasure to use, and very
>>> handy.
>>> They usually go for $40, but I've seen sales for $20.
>>>
>>> I use that more than a fixed engineering square.
>>
>>
>> If you wish to check that your TS blade is vertical, for instance, do you
>> just use the base of the double square?
>
>
> I move the blade so that it's flush with the handle, so it has the
> same shape as an engineering square.
>
> It's also handy to measure router bit height, etc.



I read a bunch of review on Starrett squares at amazon.com--they have
a lot of particularly satisfied customers!

Beginner's question: Say I use a fine square to mark a 3 or 4 inch
line "perfectly", with an awl or knife. How can I extend that line to, say,
10 or 20 inches with accuracy that would please Starrett's customers?
Does it suffice to place the knife blade into the first cut, and press the
edge of the Starrett rule up against it and continue cutting with the knife
against the rule?
If not, what is the SOP here?

A long while ago when I actually made a lot of projects, they always seemed
just a little bit off where ends were supposed to meet and such. Back then
I was probably using a ruler and a pencil--where, of course, the corner of a
ruler
could double as a square... I thought someone said that a good craftsman
doesn't blame his tools...but I agree that it seems to make sense to spend a
little on the
one tool that all of the rest of the tools are going to be set up with...
Thanks.

Bill

> I read a bunch of review on Starrett squares at amazon.com--they have
> a lot of particularly satisfied customers!
>
> Beginner's question: Say I use a fine square to mark a 3 or 4 inch
> line "perfectly", with an awl or knife. How can I extend that line
> to, say,
> 10 or 20 inches with accuracy that would please Starrett's customers?
> Does it suffice to place the knife blade into the first cut, and
> press the
> edge of the Starrett rule up against it and continue cutting with the
> knife against the rule?
> If not, what is the SOP here?
>
> A long while ago when I actually made a lot of projects, they always
> seemed
> just a little bit off where ends were supposed to meet and such.
> Back then
> I was probably using a ruler and a pencil--where, of course, the
> corner of a ruler
> could double as a square... I thought someone said that a good
> craftsman
> doesn't blame his tools...but I agree that it seems to make sense to
> spend a little on the
> one tool that all of the rest of the tools are going to be set up
> with... Thanks.
>
> Bill
>

Bill,

If you think that you will be making an investment in bigger 'n better
power tools in the future, then they will require accurate setup to get
the best out of them. If you are, then make the investment in a few
measuring tools that will achieve the accuracy needed to verify whether
your tool setup is good enough or dead-on. How accurate and to what
tolerance you want to work to is your call.

But to answer your question, another tool you may want is a reasonably
accurate straight-edge like these

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=50074&cat=1,240,45313

Bob S.

"BobS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>
> Bill,
>
> If you think that you will be making an investment in bigger 'n better
> power tools in the future, then they will require accurate setup to get
> the best out of them. If you are, then make the investment in a few
> measuring tools that will achieve the accuracy needed to verify whether
> your tool setup is good enough or dead-on. How accurate and to what
> tolerance you want to work to is your call.
>
> But to answer your question, another tool you may want is a reasonably
> accurate straight-edge like these
>
> http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=50074&cat=1,240,45313
>
> Bob S.
>

Bob,

I see myself buying a TS, BS, DP and Router. I started off several years
ago
interested in learning how to build an old-time banjo ("Boucher") and along
the way recognized
how little I knew about woodworking in general. I haven't forgotten that
early goal
or other ones I've acquired since then, but along the way I've been seduced
by
hand planes and many other implements of construction. Frankly, I enjoy
learning new
skills and techniques--just like lots of folks around here. This thread
taught, along
with related reading I did, taught me more about squares than I ever knew,
and I can
tell that I've just scratched the surface. I love it. If I can help furnish
my house
and make some music with what I learn that will be very cool--and it may
even help
legitimize all of the time I enjoy putting into the study of woodworking!

In reply to your question, some aspects of musical instrument building
require very fine
tolerances (like the distances between frets) and other aspects maybe not as
much.
I've never really thought about what tolerance I want to work to. Giving a
good
answer will require knowledge I don't have yet. It's a good question
though.

Bill

> If you really like precision, some of us bought a TS-Aligner Jr
> to do precise alignment of a tablesaw.
>
> http://www.ts-aligner.com/tsalignerjr.htm
>

It's just me, but I can't see paying over a hundred bucks for something
you can make with a dial indicator from Harbor freight and some scrap
wood/metal. I made one and it's accurate... certainly more than accurate
enough for woodworking.


>
> Id's also suggest a Wixey Angle guage. I got one from Rockler for $20
> recently.
>
> http://www.wixey.com/anglegauge/index.html
>
> It's a much easier way to set precise blade tilt.

I second that.

The BealeBox and iGaging (makes the Beale) AngleCube have magnets on
three sides with make it a little more convenient.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"Bruce Barnett" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
> "Bill" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>> I see myself buying a TS, BS, DP and Router.
>
> {snip]
>>This thread taught, along with related reading I did, taught me more
>>about squares than I ever knew, and I can tell that I've just
>>scratched the surface. I love it. If I can help furnish my house and
>>make some music with what I learn that will be very cool--and it may
>>even help legitimize all of the time I enjoy putting into the study
>>of woodworking!
>
> [snip]
>
>> In reply to your question, some aspects of musical instrument
>> building require very fine tolerances (like the distances between
>> frets) and other aspects maybe not as much.
>
> If you really like precision, some of us bought a TS-Aligner Jr
> to do precise alignment of a tablesaw.
>
> http://www.ts-aligner.com/tsalignerjr.htm
>
> Ed used to post here and offer discounts. He's extremly anal about
> measurement, and some people appreciate that. But the web site is very
> helpful. He compares his tool to other tools on the market.
>
> Id's also suggest a Wixey Angle guage. I got one from Rockler for $20
> recently.
>
> http://www.wixey.com/anglegauge/index.html
>
> It's a much easier way to set precise blade tilt.



Thank you for the links. -Bill

Bruce Barnett wrote:
> -MIKE- <[email protected]> writes:
>
>>> If you really like precision, some of us bought a TS-Aligner Jr
>>> to do precise alignment of a tablesaw.
>>> http://www.ts-aligner.com/tsalignerjr.htm
>>>
>> It's just me, but I can't see paying over a hundred bucks for something
>> you can make with a dial indicator from Harbor freight and some scrap
>> wood/metal. I made one and it's accurate... certainly more than accurate
>> enough for woodworking.
>
> FWIW, The TS Aligner Jr can do several things
> Mitre Gauge alignment
> Sliding Table alignment
> Spindle alignment on a drill press
> Jointer blade height
>

The one I made for 15 bucks does all that.
It's a dial indicator on a stick, there's nothing ingenious about that. :-)


>>> Id's also suggest a Wixey Angle guage. I got one from Rockler for $20
>>> recently. http://www.wixey.com/anglegauge/index.html
>>> It's a much easier way to set precise blade tilt.
>> I second that.
>>
>> The BealeBox and iGaging (makes the Beale) AngleCube have magnets on
>> three sides with make it a little more convenient.
>
> So does the Wixey

Are you sure about that? Did they upgrade it?
All the pictures I've seen show magnets on the bottom, only.


In looking around, I also see that Rockler has the AngleCube online for
20 bucks.
You can usually find a code for free shipping, too.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Bruce Barnett wrote:
> -MIKE- <[email protected]> writes:
>
>>> FWIW, The TS Aligner Jr can do several things
>>> Mitre Gauge alignment
>>> Sliding Table alignment
>>> Spindle alignment on a drill press
>>> Jointer blade height
>>>
>> The one I made for 15 bucks does all that.
>> It's a dial indicator on a stick, there's nothing ingenious about that. :-)
>
> Interesting. Is there any write-up? For instance, how do you get the
> table of a drill press to be square to the spindle?
>

Easy. Use an engineering square. :-)
Why Rube Goldberg it?

But if I did find a reason why I needed a dial indicator to square a
press table, I could certainly get some aluminum stock and create a jig
for a bit less than a hundred bucks. :-)

Sorry, I'm not going to be convinced that the thing is worth anywhere
near what they're asking for it, nor does anything more than I can do
with a dial indicator and some scraps. All I see on their horrible
website [yellow text against woodgrain background, I'm dizzy) :-) ] is
them trying to come up with reasons to convince me I need it. Like a
TV infomercial.. "Look what it can do!"

If I were a machinist, you could convince me, but not for woodwork.
It sure is shiny and pretty, though. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Phisherman wrote:
...
> For testing drill press runout you can, with the power cord unplugged,
> use a coat hanger chucked in the drill press such that it lightly
> touches the drill press table top. When it is even all the way
> around, the spindle is perpendicular to the table top. No special
> tools needed!

??? I've never seen a precision-enough coat hanger that any part of it
would be straight/level enough in reference to any other that it would
be of any use as a measuring tool...

How does this work, exactly, again?????

--

Doug Winterburn wrote:
> dpb wrote:
>> Phisherman wrote:
>> ...
>>> For testing drill press runout you can, with the power cord unplugged,
>>> use a coat hanger chucked in the drill press such that it lightly
>>> touches the drill press table top. When it is even all the way
>>> around, the spindle is perpendicular to the table top. No special
>>> tools needed!
>>
>> ??? I've never seen a precision-enough coat hanger that any part of
>> it would be straight/level enough in reference to any other that it
>> would be of any use as a measuring tool...
>>
>> How does this work, exactly, again?????
>>
>> --
> The hanger is crooked enough that it touches the table at least several
> inches from the center point or the point that straight rod in the
> chuck would be. As you rotate the chuck by hand, the tip of he hanger
> should just touch the table (in a circle) if the table is level. It's
> kind of like the process of leveling a RAS table by removing the blade
> and setting the bevel with the arbor straight own, then checking that
> the arbor just touches the table as he arm is swung and the motor pulled
> along the arm.

If the idea was/is the single-point, simply a chunk of 10ga wire bent
would be simpler. Maybe that's what phish was suggesting just use the
hanger for the wire, I'm still not sure...

--

dpb wrote:
> Phisherman wrote:
> ...
>> For testing drill press runout you can, with the power cord
>> unplugged, use a coat hanger chucked in the drill press such that it
>> lightly touches the drill press table top. When it is even all the
>> way around, the spindle is perpendicular to the table top. No
>> special tools needed!
>
> ??? I've never seen a precision-enough coat hanger that any part of
> it would be straight/level enough in reference to any other that it
> would be of any use as a measuring tool...
>
> How does this work, exactly, again?????

It's the same procedure as leveling the table on an RAS to the blade. You
can use a coat hanger, a dowel, anything that gives you a reference height.

He's assuming you have a radial drill press or a table that moves laterally
and in and out I think.

Doug Winterburn wrote:
> dpb wrote:
>> Phisherman wrote:
>> ...
>>> For testing drill press runout you can, with the power cord
>>> unplugged, use a coat hanger chucked in the drill press such that
>>> it lightly touches the drill press table top. When it is even all
>>> the way around, the spindle is perpendicular to the table top. No
>>> special tools needed!
>>
>> ??? I've never seen a precision-enough coat hanger that any part of
>> it would be straight/level enough in reference to any other that it
>> would be of any use as a measuring tool...
>>
>> How does this work, exactly, again?????
>>
>> --
> The hanger is crooked enough that it touches the table at least
> several inches from the center point or the point that straight rod
> in the chuck would be. As you rotate the chuck by hand, the tip of
> he hanger should just touch the table (in a circle) if the table is
> level. It's kind of like the process of leveling a RAS table by
> removing the blade and setting the bevel with the arbor straight own,
> then checking that the arbor just touches the table as he arm is
> swung and the motor pulled along the arm.

Now that's clever--bending the hanger.

dpb wrote:
> Doug Winterburn wrote:
>> dpb wrote:
>>> Phisherman wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> For testing drill press runout you can, with the power cord
>>>> unplugged, use a coat hanger chucked in the drill press such that
>>>> it lightly touches the drill press table top. When it is even all
>>>> the way around, the spindle is perpendicular to the table top.
>>>> No special tools needed!
>>>
>>> ??? I've never seen a precision-enough coat hanger that any part of
>>> it would be straight/level enough in reference to any other that it
>>> would be of any use as a measuring tool...
>>>
>>> How does this work, exactly, again?????
>>>
>>> --
>> The hanger is crooked enough that it touches the table at least
>> several inches from the center point or the point that straight rod
>> in the chuck would be. As you rotate the chuck by hand, the tip of
>> he hanger should just touch the table (in a circle) if the table is
>> level. It's kind of like the process of leveling a RAS table by
>> removing the blade and setting the bevel with the arbor straight
>> own, then checking that the arbor just touches the table as he arm
>> is swung and the motor pulled along the arm.
>
> If the idea was/is the single-point, simply a chunk of 10ga wire bent
> would be simpler. Maybe that's what phish was suggesting just use the
> hanger for the wire, I'm still not sure...

A single point doesn't give you levelling.

J. Clarke wrote:
...

Rotating it does (or can assuming a fair amount which was the reason for
the ??? to try to ken what was the way the suggester thought this works...)

--

J. Clarke wrote:
> Doug Winterburn wrote:
>> dpb wrote:
>>> Phisherman wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> For testing drill press runout you can, with the power cord
>>>> unplugged, use a coat hanger chucked in the drill press such that
>>>> it lightly touches the drill press table top. When it is even all
>>>> the way around, the spindle is perpendicular to the table top. No
>>>> special tools needed!
>>> ??? I've never seen a precision-enough coat hanger that any part of
>>> it would be straight/level enough in reference to any other that it
>>> would be of any use as a measuring tool...
>>>
>>> How does this work, exactly, again?????
>>>
>>> --
>> The hanger is crooked enough that it touches the table at least
>> several inches from the center point or the point that straight rod
>> in the chuck would be. As you rotate the chuck by hand, the tip of
>> he hanger should just touch the table (in a circle) if the table is
>> level. It's kind of like the process of leveling a RAS table by
>> removing the blade and setting the bevel with the arbor straight own,
>> then checking that the arbor just touches the table as he arm is
>> swung and the motor pulled along the arm.
>
> Now that's clever--bending the hanger.

Again what I said -- it that's the intent, simpler to take the wire and
bend it w/o the hanger itself. Of course, it assumes it's mounted in
the chuck and up to the point at which the bend occurs is straight and
perpendicular, otherwise it rotates around a non-vertical axis...

--

Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "CW" wrote:
>
>> No, he's not. Bend the wire like a Z. Put one end in the chuck.
>> Bring the table up (or the quill down) until the free end of the
>> wire comes close to touching the table and turn the spindle by hand.
>> Keep creeping down until the end of the wire touches the table all
>> the way around as you turn the spindle. The further the end of the
>> wire is from the spindle centerline, the more accurate it will be.
> =================================
>
> Clever.


Still relies on the center portion in the chuck to be perpendicular and
straight else't the whole thing rotates around an inclined axis.

--

dpb wrote:
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>> "CW" wrote:
>>
>>> No, he's not. Bend the wire like a Z. Put one end in the chuck. Bring
>>> the table up (or the quill down) until the free end of the wire comes
>>> close to touching the table and turn the spindle by hand. Keep
>>> creeping down until the end of the wire touches the table all the way
>>> around as you turn the spindle. The further the end of the wire is
>>> from the spindle centerline, the more accurate it will be.
>> =================================
>>
>> Clever.
>
> Still relies on the center portion in the chuck to be perpendicular and
> straight else't the whole thing rotates around an inclined axis.

'Scuse? It's going to rotate around the axis of the quill, or it isn't
going to rotate at all. :-D

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Morris Dovey wrote:
> dpb wrote:
>> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>> "CW" wrote:
>>>
>>>> No, he's not. Bend the wire like a Z. Put one end in the chuck.
>>>> Bring the table up (or the quill down) until the free end of the
>>>> wire comes close to touching the table and turn the spindle by hand.
>>>> Keep creeping down until the end of the wire touches the table all
>>>> the way around as you turn the spindle. The further the end of the
>>>> wire is from the spindle centerline, the more accurate it will be.
>>> =================================
>>>
>>> Clever.
>>
>> Still relies on the center portion in the chuck to be perpendicular
>> and straight else't the whole thing rotates around an inclined axis.
>
> 'Scuse? It's going to rotate around the axis of the quill, or it isn't
> going to rotate at all. :-D

The point won't perfectly unless the vertical portion extended from the
chuck is also aligned in that same axis. If there's any bend in it it
will simply amplify that and you'd adjust the table to match.

--

dpb wrote:
> Morris Dovey wrote:
>> dpb wrote:
>>> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>>> "CW" wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> No, he's not. Bend the wire like a Z. Put one end in the chuck.
>>>>> Bring the table up (or the quill down) until the free end of the
>>>>> wire comes close to touching the table and turn the spindle by
>>>>> hand. Keep creeping down until the end of the wire touches the
>>>>> table all the way around as you turn the spindle. The further the
>>>>> end of the wire is from the spindle centerline, the more accurate
>>>>> it will be.
>>>> =================================
>>>>
>>>> Clever.
>>>
>>> Still relies on the center portion in the chuck to be perpendicular
>>> and straight else't the whole thing rotates around an inclined axis.
>>
>> 'Scuse? It's going to rotate around the axis of the quill, or it
>> isn't going to rotate at all. :-D
>
> The point won't perfectly unless the vertical portion extended from
> the chuck is also aligned in that same axis. If there's any bend in
> it it will simply amplify that and you'd adjust the table to match.

The objective is to have the table perpendicular to the quill, not to have
either of them exactly vertical.

If the quill is bent, it needs to be straightened and until that is done
there is no point in trying to align the table.

J. Clarke wrote:
> dpb wrote:
>> Morris Dovey wrote:
>>> dpb wrote:
>>>> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>>>> "CW" wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> No, he's not. Bend the wire like a Z. Put one end in the chuck.
>>>>>> Bring the table up (or the quill down) until the free end of the
>>>>>> wire comes close to touching the table and turn the spindle by
>>>>>> hand. Keep creeping down until the end of the wire touches the
>>>>>> table all the way around as you turn the spindle. The further the
>>>>>> end of the wire is from the spindle centerline, the more accurate
>>>>>> it will be.
>>>>> =================================
>>>>>
>>>>> Clever.
>>>> Still relies on the center portion in the chuck to be perpendicular
>>>> and straight else't the whole thing rotates around an inclined axis.
>>> 'Scuse? It's going to rotate around the axis of the quill, or it
>>> isn't going to rotate at all. :-D
>> The point won't perfectly unless the vertical portion extended from
>> the chuck is also aligned in that same axis. If there's any bend in
>> it it will simply amplify that and you'd adjust the table to match.
>
> The objective is to have the table perpendicular to the quill, not to have
> either of them exactly vertical.
>
> If the quill is bent, it needs to be straightened and until that is done
> there is no point in trying to align the table.

The point isn't the quill itself bent, it's finding a piece of hanger
wire that isn't... :)

Whatever error there is in it is amplified by the radius or rotation...

The idea is ok, it's the implementation that has to be good to get it to
work in practice....

--

dpb wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
>> dpb wrote:
>>> Morris Dovey wrote:
>>>> dpb wrote:
>>>>> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>>>>> "CW" wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, he's not. Bend the wire like a Z. Put one end in the chuck.
>>>>>>> Bring the table up (or the quill down) until the free end of the
>>>>>>> wire comes close to touching the table and turn the spindle by
>>>>>>> hand. Keep creeping down until the end of the wire touches the
>>>>>>> table all the way around as you turn the spindle. The further
>>>>>>> the end of the wire is from the spindle centerline, the more
>>>>>>> accurate it will be.
>>>>>> =================================
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Clever.
>>>>> Still relies on the center portion in the chuck to be
>>>>> perpendicular and straight else't the whole thing rotates around
>>>>> an inclined axis.
>>>> 'Scuse? It's going to rotate around the axis of the quill, or it
>>>> isn't going to rotate at all. :-D
>>> The point won't perfectly unless the vertical portion extended from
>>> the chuck is also aligned in that same axis. If there's any bend in
>>> it it will simply amplify that and you'd adjust the table to match.
>>
>> The objective is to have the table perpendicular to the quill, not
>> to have either of them exactly vertical.
>>
>> If the quill is bent, it needs to be straightened and until that is
>> done there is no point in trying to align the table.
>
> The point isn't the quill itself bent, it's finding a piece of hanger
> wire that isn't... :)
>
> Whatever error there is in it is amplified by the radius or
> rotation...
>
> The idea is ok, it's the implementation that has to be good to get it
> to work in practice....

The whole IDEA is to bend the frigging wire so that when you spin the chuck
is traces out a circle in space that is perpendicular to the quill--you then
align the table to that circle.

Ed Bennett wrote:
> Not much different from the goofy idea of
> holding a square up against a drill bit.
>

How is that goofy? We're talking woodworking, here.
If the square works well enough for me to draw a guide line through a
block of wood I'm intent on boring a hole though, and I'm laying said
block on the table, why is it goofy to use the same square to make sure
the drill bit is coming down square to the table.

I'm not aware of any situation in which I need a bolt or screw to travel
straight down 6 or 8 inches into a piece of furniture with an accuracy
of +/- 2 thousandths of an inch.



> Honestly, I can't understand why people go to such extremes to avoid
> dial indicators.

I have one and I use it.
I made my table saw aligner for about 15 bucks and an hour's time.


>
> <shameless_plug>
> You'll find all you need to know about using dial indicators on your
> table saw at:
>
> http://www.tablesawalignment.com
>
> Sign up today!
> </shameless_plug>
>
> I completely understand some people's reaction to most dial indicator
> jigs on the market today. Heck, the vast majority do nothing more
> than a simple dial indicator on a stick. Some do even less! It
> amazes me what some people sell, but it amazes me even more that
> people buy it.
>
> Thanks,
> Ed Bennett
> [email protected]

Honestly Ed, I'm not trying to be a dick, but yours is really not much
more than a dial indicator on a stick, certainly not $100 more than a
stick. :-)

BTW, I bet you'd sell more if you let people see those videos without
having to register. It may help clue people in to whatever it is they do
to make them worth all that money.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"Father Haskell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:f06b654a-1bcc-4e71-be8e-185d48cf17ea@u20g2000vbq.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 23, 10:52 pm, "BobS" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
>
>
> > How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS,
> > BS, etc?
> > Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of $39.99.
> > I think the squares may also come in handy when installing a vise on
> > my workbench to be (so I
> > need a larget one for that?).
>
> > A good graduated combination square would be useful too, no?
> > If the engineers squares above were graduated I'd probably use them
> > so much
> > for general tasks that I'd end up messing them up/dropping them...
>
> > At this point, I don't even have a good steel rule. Some of you have
> > seen
> > me around here long enough to know I am a beginner. What should I be
> > collecting along these
> > lines?
>
> > Thanks,
> > Bill
>
> Bill,
>
> While the engineers squares at this price point are somewhat accurate,
> save your money and get a Starrett Try Square (~$75) and build a nice
> box for it. It is accurate enough (2 thou / 12") for anything you'll
> align in your shop or want to measure. It will also last you a lifetime
> and be a great tool to give to your grandson/daughter one of these
> days. (that's when the wheels on the walker are worn flat...;-)

Buy the best you can afford *now*, this is the one tool that
will make or break your every project. One good Starrett is
worth 20 cheap Swansons.

Bought one cheap Swanson 6" square for jobsite work, $5.00.
Actually dead-on accurate out of the package, but the
aluminum parts wore out within 6 months. Tossed the stock,
saved the blade and scriber. Shiny blade was made much
more readable by lightly sanding it with 320 and a shot of oil.
-----------------------------

You folks have me thinking more and more about these combination squares.

Question 1: Does one alway mark along the steel rule (rather than its
head)?

Question 2: Is hardened steel head to be preferred to cast iron?

Question 3: Is the 6" version useful for helping to set up a band saw (not
for
resawing), or is it too big? Or is it a mute point with such a "slack"
blade?

Sorry for such basic questions. With the Thanksgiving 25%-off Rochler
coupon,
the Starrettt 6" combination square can be had for about $60...

A week ago, the name Starrett was completely unfamiliar to me (though I had
seen their products behind locked glass doors).. What looks really
impressive is
the 12" rule with the protractor, but I can wait for the project that
justifies that... ; )
It's not hard to be attracted to fine tools...

Thanks,
Bill

-MIKE- wrote:
> Ed Bennett wrote:

>> Honestly, I can't understand why people go to such extremes to avoid
>> dial indicators.

> Honestly Ed, I'm not trying to be a dick, but yours is really not much
> more than a dial indicator on a stick, certainly not $100 more than a
> stick. :-)

Dial indicators on a stick aren't all bad. I suggest something like

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=SW625-1300

(on sale for $19.95, click on the "Master Catalog Page" link for a photo
of the whole thing.

Unscrew the vertical support from the base, lower the cross-arm, and
chuck it up in your (unplugged) drill press. Then raise the table until
the indicator touches the table.

Turn the chuck by hand and adjust until you get the same reading all the
way around.

Use the base as a refrigerator magnet. Send me the point set. :)

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

J. Clarke wrote:
...

> The whole IDEA is to bend the frigging wire so that when you spin the chuck
> is traces out a circle in space that is perpendicular to the quill--you then
> align the table to that circle.

Indeed, which is what I've said... :)

_IF_ that circle is rotating slightly off-axis, the length of the wire
to the point amplifies that and you align the table to it...

It relies for accuracy on the axis of rotation being colinear w/ the
quill precisely...

--

dpb wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
> ...
>
>> The whole IDEA is to bend the frigging wire so that when you spin
>> the chuck is traces out a circle in space that is perpendicular to
>> the quill--you then align the table to that circle.
>
> Indeed, which is what I've said... :)
>
> _IF_ that circle is rotating slightly off-axis, the length of the wire
> to the point amplifies that and you align the table to it...
>
> It relies for accuracy on the axis of rotation being colinear w/ the
> quill precisely...

Fine, you keep doing it however you're doing and the rest of us will go back
to working our wood.

Morris Dovey wrote:
> Dial indicators on a stick aren't all bad. I suggest something like
>
> http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=SW625-1300
>
> (on sale for $19.95, click on the "Master Catalog Page" link for a photo
> of the whole thing.
>
> Unscrew the vertical support from the base, lower the cross-arm, and
> chuck it up in your (unplugged) drill press. Then raise the table until
> the indicator touches the table.
>
> Turn the chuck by hand and adjust until you get the same reading all the
> way around.
>
> Use the base as a refrigerator magnet. Send me the point set. :)
>

On sale for 20 bucks. I have a coupon for free shipping from Enco.
Hmmmm, might have to pick up at least a set of metal sticks. :-)
That would've saved me some time making my TS jig.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"Ed Bennett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:6c79126b-5841-4b98-84af-
>
>> BTW, I bet you'd sell more if you let people see those videos without
>> having to register. It may help clue people in to whatever it is they do
>> to make them worth all that money.
>
> Actually, I did it your way for many, many years. I sell more now.
> People who are serious about buying a dial indicator jig don't have a
> problem signing up for access to premium information sources (the TS-
> Aligner videos, tablesawalignment.com, etc.). It's all free, but you
> do have to sign up.
>

FWIW, I didn't get past the registration page.



> I hope that this answers all of your questions.
>
> Thanks,
> Ed Bennett

Ed Bennett wrote:
> On Dec 1, 6:40 pm, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Ed Bennett wrote:
>>> Not much different from the goofy idea of
>>> holding a square up against a drill bit.
>> How is that goofy?
>
> When you do this, you assume that the drill bit is straight and not
> ground with a taper. You also assume that the drill chuck and/or the
> spindle have no runout (i.e. are not bent). You also assume that you
> can reliably site a tiny gap between the square and an object that has
> no flat gauging surface. The drill bit has flutes, cutting edges with
> relief angles, etc. Things can be done to mitigate these sources of
> error but using a dial indicator will always be a superior method.
>

None of my bits are tapered.
I've checked my drillpress and corrected for runout.
You spin the chuck or use straight piece of steel rod.
Nothing you said is an issue.

I never said a dial wasn't superior... just not necessary.


>> We're talking woodworking, here.
>
> Oh, so why bother at all? Why not just trust the angle scale on the
> machine and be done with it. Heck, why even bother with a square.
> It's only wood - just eyeball the thing and get on with it!
>

Yeah, because that's the same as what I said.


>> If the square works well enough for me to draw a guide line through a
>> block of wood I'm intent on boring a hole though, and I'm laying said
>> block on the table, why is it goofy to use the same square to make sure
>> the drill bit is coming down square to the table.
>
> If you are content with the quality and accuracy obtained by cutting
> to (or drilling from) pencil lines, then I suppose I stand
> corrected. For you, and the sort of work that you do, using a square
> against a drill bit isn't goofy.
>

This is a woodworking group. Not a NASA machinists' group.
I don't have nano settings on any tool I use.


>> I'm not aware of any situation in which I need a bolt or screw to travel
>> straight down 6 or 8 inches into a piece of furniture with an accuracy
>> of +/- 2 thousandths of an inch.
>
> People avoid all sorts of projects that challenge their skills. Would
> you ever attempt to drill a hole from opposite sides with the intent
> that they meet in the middle? I'm not talking about matching to
> within a couple of thousandths, just close enough to insert a close
> fitting tube or rod that needs to move or rotate freely. I have a
> friend who makes pens and he's nuts about his hole drilling accuracy.
>

Yes, I do all that and my machinists square is accurate enough.


>>> Honestly, I can't understand why people go to such extremes to avoid
>>> dial indicators.
>> I have one and I use it.
>> I made my table saw aligner for about 15 bucks and an hour's time.
>
> That's great! So, now you know that a dial indicator can be used for
> more than just simple blade and fence alignment. You have acquired
> new skills and no longer need to defend inferior alignment techniques
> that are prone to all sorts of error.
>
> BTW, I'm looking for some good "real life" examples of home made
> alignment jigs for a new web site I'm getting ready to launch. The
> jig I choose will be featured prominently as THE standard that all
> commercial dial indicator jigs will be compared to. The inventor will
> be given full credit for his/her design and It will be a very positive
> experience. It could end up being known world-wide as "Mike's dial
> indicator jig" (or it could be named after another inventor, who
> knows). Just send me photos and a write-up saying how it is
> constructed (i.e. plans).
>
>> Honestly Ed, I'm not trying to be a dick, but yours is really not much
>> more than a dial indicator on a stick, certainly not $100 more than a
>> stick. :-)
>
> It must come naturally. It appears to be effortless on your part.
> It's obvious that you have taken a few casual glances at some photos
> and have decided, without any understanding or further investigation,
> that you know all about my TS-Aligner products. Don't worry, a lot of
> people do exactly that and draw the same uninformed conclusions. Now
> you know why it reminds me so much of illiteracy.
>
> I'm guessing here, but I suppose it would be safe to conclude that you
> don't have any idea how much it costs to manufacture something like a
> TS-Aligner or what it takes run a business, promote products, and
> support a large user base. You probably wouldn't think that your own
> personal time is completely worthless. You certainly wouldn't accept
> employment for no pay. But, you seem to think that I should. I'll
> tell you what I tell everyone who makes such sweeping (and uninformed)
> generalizations about cost. I'll send you a set of drawings and you
> go find out how much it costs. Get quotes from domestic machine
> shops, source materials and parts, toss in the labor, facilities, and
> utilities costs, and then see how much is left over between my price
> and your cost. I would bet the world that your cost comes in higher
> than my selling price. I'm quite sure that the machining alone will
> put your cost under water.
>

I'm aware of all those things. I honestly hope you succeed and sell a
bunch.
I know there are people who like to pay a bunch of money for stuff.

There have always been people making shiny tools and claiming they are
next best thing, implying you can't do your best without it, trying to
make you fell inferior for not joining their club.

And there have and always will be guys who don't fall for the hype.
Guys who make their own jigs and fixtures, who don't pay hundreds for
every new, shiny, thingamajig that shows up in the latest woodworking
magazine. These same guys continue to make, beautiful, even stunning
furniture and cabinets and works of art.... all without the shiny
thingamajigs.

Guys were doing it all with their hands, before electricity, and they
didn't have dial indicators. How on earth do they do it? :-)


>> BTW, I bet you'd sell more if you let people see those videos without
>> having to register. It may help clue people in to whatever it is they do
>> to make them worth all that money.
>
> Actually, I did it your way for many, many years. I sell more now.
> People who are serious about buying a dial indicator jig don't have a
> problem signing up for access to premium information sources (the TS-
> Aligner videos, tablesawalignment.com, etc.). It's all free, but you
> do have to sign up.
>
> I hope that this answers all of your questions.
>
> Thanks,
> Ed Bennett


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"Father Haskell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On Nov 25, 2:39 am, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Bruce Barnett" <[email protected]> wrote in
> > messagenews:[email protected]...
> >> "Bill" <[email protected]> writes:
>
> >>> How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS, BS,
> >>> etc?
> >>> Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of $39.99.
>
> >> I found that a nice 4" double square is a pleasure to use, and very
> >> handy.
> >> They usually go for $40, but I've seen sales for $20.
>
> >> I use that more than a fixed engineering square.
>
> > If you wish to check that your TS blade is vertical, for instance, do
> > you
> > just use the base of the double square?
> > It would appear that the base has the potential to have more "integrity"
> > than the angle it forms with the rule.
>
> If the angle it forms with the rule is not square, return it or throw it
> away. If I were in your position, I would buy a GOOD combination square a
> they are very versatile. You won't find a good one at Home Depot. I would
> suggest Starrett (though I have a Mititoyo). There are several top end
> combo
> squares that are as accurate as a Starrett but Starrett will, at a very
> reasonable charge, fix it if you damage it. Expect to pay $75 to $100 for
> it. Seems expensive but well worth it. The cheap ones that you find at
> your
> local home center are near useless. When setting up a machine, you need
> accuracy. If the machine is not set up right, it will transfer this
> inaccuracy to the work piece. After making many pieces, all the errors
> will
> ad up to the point things won't fit. This is particularly bad for the less
> experienced as they may not know what the problem is, They will likely
> think
> it is something they're doing wrong when it really is a badly set up
> machine. You often here people say within 1/64 is close enough for
> woodwork.
> For some things it is but for many things, 1/64 off might as well be a
> mile.- Hide quoted text -

>Where do you rate a proper dovetail?

If I get what you are asking, 1/64 out on a dovetail might as well be a
mile. Many people would be amazed at the tolerances that have to be held for
joints such as dovetails, box joints, mortise and tennon et.Got to admire
guys that can hand cut really nice joints. I've hand cut dovetails. They
worked but were anything but nice fitting, not to mention being ugly.

Ed Bennett wrote:
> On Dec 2, 3:52 pm, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> None of my bits are tapered.
>> I've checked my drillpress and corrected for runout.
>> You spin the chuck or use straight piece of steel rod.
>> Nothing you said is an issue.
>
> You asked, I answered. As I said, there are ways to mitigate the
> effects of these problems. If you are aware of them, and you know
> that they adversely affect the accuracy of the results, then isn't it
> somewhat disingenuous not to mention them when you advocate this
> technique? Of course, asking the question itself ("why is it goofy?")
> would seem to indicate that you didn't know the answer (i.e. weren't
> aware of the shortcomings).
>
>> I never said a dial wasn't superior... just not necessary.
>
> And, like I said, I'm sure that it's "not necessary" for the sort of
> work that you do. But don't presume to speak for others and the work
> that they do. Maybe someone needs the added accuracy - or maybe they
> just don't have a lot of time to waste goofing around with trial and
> error methods of woodworking. They would prefer to know that their
> drill press spindle is squared up to the table without having to worry
> about all the possible sources of error that might exist.
>
>> This is a woodworking group. Not a NASA machinists' group.
>
> Geez, not the "NASA" argument! Just about every time this topic comes
> up someone has to make a citation to NASA. If you can't draw on logic
> and reason, then try a bit of hyperbole, right? So, are you saying
> that only a "NASA machinists' group" can specify the use of dial
> indicators to align a drill press? I hate to disappoint you but
> millions of people use dial indicators every day and they don't all
> work at NASA. Dial indicators are not specialty tools intended only
> for the elite few who work on the cutting edge of technology. They
> are as common as dirt in almost every industry (including many
> woodworking shops).
>
>> I don't have nano settings on any tool I use.
>
> This is actually a very good argument for the use of a dial
> indicator. How else are you going to make fine adjustments and
> precise alignments? Trial and error? Talk about goofy!
>
> (RE: drilling a hole from opposite sides)
>> Yes, I do all that and my machinists square is accurate enough.
>>
>
> Hmmm... you go from "I don't know of any situation..." to "I do all
> that...". Seems like a rather large leap to me.
>
> We're not talking about the accuracy of your machinist's square.
> We're talking about a goofy method for drill press alignment. In case
> you didn't notice, the shortcomings that I pointed out have nothing to
> do with the accuracy of the square.
>
> I realize that the "square" method for drill press alignment can be
> found in countless books, magazines, and TV shows. It's quite
> popular. And, in all those references there's not a single mention of
> its shortcomings (which you acknowledge). This should tell you
> something about the expertise of the popular media.
>
> (RE: cost of a TS-Aligner)
>> I'm aware of all those things.
>
> Ya, right. Sure you are. Just like you knew all about the
> shortcomings of using a square to align a drill press (but couldn't
> figure out why it was goofy). Just like you drill holes from opposite
> sides and they easily meet in the middle. It's funny, but you only
> seem to know these things *AFTER* they are pointed out to you. The
> time to demonstrate some expertise is before you criticize things that
> you clearly don't understand. If you really understood what goes into
> the cost of a TS-Aligner, and the functions that it provides, then you
> would have had nothing critical to say about my pricing.
>
>> I honestly hope you succeed and sell a
>> bunch.
>> I know there are people who like to pay a bunch of money for stuff.
>
> Is that why you have been so critical? Talk about being
> disingenuous. Why did you pay money for your "engineer's square"?
> Assuming you actually have a drill press, why did you pay money for
> it? Can't you manage to do high quality woodworking without these
> "shiny tools"? Or, maybe you are unwilling or unable to make your own
> versions of these tools. Why pay so much for a square? It seems like
> such a simple tool that anybody could make one - right? What a ripoff
> - all these square makers charge way more than it's worth. Or, maybe
> you would be willing to entertain the idea that there's more to a
> square than you can get by looking at a photo.
>
>> There have always been people making shiny tools and claiming they are
>> next best thing, implying you can't do your best without it, trying to
>> make you fell inferior for not joining their club.
>
> I'm thinking that this statement reveals more than you wanted it to.
> Nobody's trying to make you feel inferior. Nobody's saying that you
> can't do your best without a particular dial indicator jig. There is
> no "club" here that needs to be joined. You will have to look to
> yourself about any feelings of insecurity you have on this topic.
> Remember, you brought up the issues with commercially made dial
> indicator jigs - not me.
>
> We're talking about why the use of a square to align a drill press is
> goofy. I'm pointing out the problems with this technique and you are
> supposedly defending it. Apparently there isn't much for you to say
> because your defense has migrated to criticism of commercially made
> dial indicator jigs - mine in particular. I didn't tell anybody that
> they had to have one of my jigs, I just said that they should go out
> and get a dial indicator.
>
> Be careful that you don't try to make others feel inferior because
> they choose to buy a dial indicator jig and don't join your "I made it
> myself" club. You're always going to meet people who would rather buy
> than make their own. And, you'll always know people who are capable
> of making a lot more in their shop than you ever could. Everyone has
> a reason to be looking down their noses at someone else.
>
>> And there have and always will be guys who don't fall for the hype.
>> Guys who make their own jigs and fixtures, who don't pay hundreds for
>> every new, shiny, thingamajig that shows up in the latest woodworking
>> magazine. These same guys continue to make, beautiful, even stunning
>> furniture and cabinets and works of art.... all without the shiny
>> thingamajigs.
>
> Hype? Hmmm....that's somewhat of a wild generalization. So, let's
> see your dial indicator jig. I assume that you put yourself into this
> category of "guys who make their own jigs and fixtures" and are proud
> of your accomplishment. I invited you to submit your jig as a good
> example of what someone can do in their own shop. Where's the beef?
> Let's compare jigs so that everyone can see where the hype really is.
> Or, maybe you would be more inclined to admit that it's nice to be
> able to buy some things that are just impossible or impractical for
> you to make on your own. Maybe you would like to stop looking down
> your nose at people who value their time more than the cost of a
> commercially made dial indicator jig.
>
>> Guys were doing it all with their hands, before electricity, and they
>> didn't have dial indicators. How on earth do they do it? :-)
>
> I hate to disappoint you, but dial indicators have been around since
> "before electricity". James Watt (inventor of the modern steam
> engine) is often credited with the invention of the dial indicator in
> 1772. But, your point is well made. Examples of fine woodworking
> date back to the Egyptian empire. It may not have occurred to you,
> but the argument applies equally to the drill press and that
> "engineer's square" of yours. If you are so inclined, you can try
> your hand at shaving wood with rocks and copper edged tools. How on
> Earth did they ever drill holes without drill bits? All of the modern
> tools and machinery don't enable high quality craftsmanship; they just
> make it easier and faster.
>
> The problem with being a Luddite is its inherent hypocrisy. You come
> up with an imaginary period that you think is some sort of idealistic
> utopia and decide that every advancement after that is an evil
> corruption of the art. But the line you draw is completely
> arbitrary. Some other Luddite has a different idealistic utopia in
> mind and thinks your ideas are a corruption of the art. Ultimately
> both deny progress. In case you didn't notice, the Luddites didn't
> win the industrial revolution.
>
> Ed Bennett

Ed, I didn't even read past your first paragraph.
You sell a widget and will take your arguments to defend it to grave, so
there is no use debating it.

I wish you good luck and success in you endeavors. Sincerely.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Swingman wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>
>> I wish you good luck and success in you endeavors. Sincerely.
>
> What'd I say ... :)
>

I know, I know. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

As well-regarded (and relatively fragile) as the Starrett combination
squares are, how come they don't sell them in a decent case (or do they?)?
Was looking at C33H-12-4R, and dreweling over C434-12-4R...circle-divider be
darned, there's something about that protractor!! ; ) Maybe I need a
konk in the head with a square! Maybe I'd see Starretts??? ::cough
cough::

Bill

Phisherman wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 22:15:38 -0500, "Bill" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> As well-regarded (and relatively fragile) as the Starrett combination
>> squares are, how come they don't sell them in a decent case (or do they?)?
>> Was looking at C33H-12-4R, and dreweling over C434-12-4R...circle-divider be
>> darned, there's something about that protractor!! ; ) Maybe I need a
>> konk in the head with a square! Maybe I'd see Starretts??? ::cough
>> cough::
>>
>> Bill
>>
>

> If it were stored in a box/case all the time, it would not get used.


I know what you mean. I think if you were talking about the 434, then
you might like a nice place to keep the protractor.

Bill




> I use my Starrett combo more frequently than I though I would, making it
> an even better buy.

"BobS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> While the engineers squares at this price point are somewhat accurate,
> save your money and get a Starrett Try Square (~$75) and build a nice box
> for it. It is accurate enough (2 thou / 12") for anything you'll align in
> your shop or want to measure. It will also last you a lifetime and be a
> great tool to give to your grandson/daughter one of these days. (that's
> when the wheels on the walker are worn flat...;-)
>
> Bob S.


I finally decided to "take the plunge". Seems like it will be helpful in
installing a woodworkers
vise on the benchtop I want to build (right?). Now I find out neither
Rockler nor Woodcraft
carry the 12" hardened-steel version (C33H-12-4R). Would have liked to have
found
it locally, but I can't seem to find a good source near Indianapolis. I
contacted Starrett
who gave me "two numbers to start with". The first one had been
disconnected. Evidently
there is more money to be made selling the 9.99 versions.

Bill

Bill wrote:
> "BobS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> While the engineers squares at this price point are somewhat
>> accurate, save your money and get a Starrett Try Square (~$75) and
>> build a nice box for it. It is accurate enough (2 thou / 12") for
>> anything you'll align in your shop or want to measure. It will also
>> last you a lifetime and be a great tool to give to your
>> grandson/daughter one of these days. (that's when the wheels on the
>> walker are worn flat...;-)
>>
>> Bob S.
>
>
> I finally decided to "take the plunge". Seems like it will be
> helpful in installing a woodworkers
> vise on the benchtop I want to build (right?). Now I find out
> neither Rockler nor Woodcraft
> carry the 12" hardened-steel version (C33H-12-4R). Would have liked
> to have found
> it locally, but I can't seem to find a good source near Indianapolis.
> I contacted Starrett
> who gave me "two numbers to start with". The first one had been
> disconnected. Evidently
> there is more money to be made selling the 9.99 versions.

FWIW, Amazon has that model for 85 bucks and shipping.

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Bill wrote:
>> "BobS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>> While the engineers squares at this price point are somewhat
>>> accurate, save your money and get a Starrett Try Square (~$75) and
>>> build a nice box for it. It is accurate enough (2 thou / 12") for
>>> anything you'll align in your shop or want to measure. It will also
>>> last you a lifetime and be a great tool to give to your
>>> grandson/daughter one of these days. (that's when the wheels on the
>>> walker are worn flat...;-)
>>>
>>> Bob S.
>>
>>
>> I finally decided to "take the plunge". Seems like it will be
>> helpful in installing a woodworkers
>> vise on the benchtop I want to build (right?). Now I find out
>> neither Rockler nor Woodcraft
>> carry the 12" hardened-steel version (C33H-12-4R). Would have liked
>> to have found
>> it locally, but I can't seem to find a good source near Indianapolis.
>> I contacted Starrett
>> who gave me "two numbers to start with". The first one had been
>> disconnected. Evidently
>> there is more money to be made selling the 9.99 versions.
>
> FWIW, Amazon has that model for 85 bucks and shipping.

Yep, $85 including shipping. My wife mentioned she would like to give me a
woodworking
item for xmas...haven't mentioned anything yet. Did you see that Larry the
Cable
Guy skit, where he explains that the waitress rubbed his neck, and then he
thought
"Gosh, I should've asked for....!" ; ) Of course, the truth is that
we try to lead a
thrifty life style--at least I do. : )

Bill

Bill wrote:
> My wife mentioned she would like to give me a woodworking
> item for xmas...haven't mentioned anything yet.

I'd sure like to have a Lee Valley Imperial Micro-Adjust Marking Gauge for
Christmas, if anybody wants to get one for me:

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=59455&cat=1,42936

I think your wife wants to get you one too Bill. :-)

--
"Even if your wife is happy but you're unhappy, you're still happier
than you'd be if you were happy and your wife was unhappy." - Red Green
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

"Steve Turner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Bill wrote:
>> My wife mentioned she would like to give me a woodworking
>> item for xmas...haven't mentioned anything yet.
>
> I'd sure like to have a Lee Valley Imperial Micro-Adjust Marking Gauge for
> Christmas, if anybody wants to get one for me:
>
> http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=59455&cat=1,42936
>
> I think your wife wants to get you one too Bill. :-)


Tempting...but I asked for the square. And two books by James Krenov
(Cabinet Makers Notebook and .
The Fine Art of Cabinetmaking). That's all I asked for from "santa" this
year. : )


>
> --
> "Even if your wife is happy but you're unhappy, you're still happier
> than you'd be if you were happy and your wife was unhappy." - Red Green
> To reply, eat the taco.
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

"Steve Turner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Bill wrote:
>> My wife mentioned she would like to give me a woodworking
>> item for xmas...haven't mentioned anything yet.
>
> I'd sure like to have a Lee Valley Imperial Micro-Adjust Marking Gauge for
> Christmas, if anybody wants to get one for me:
>
> http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=59455&cat=1,42936
>
Did you read the fine print:
Due to the number of requests for a micro-adjust feature, we developed a
second model with a slightly longer body fitted with a two-stage collet to
allow fine adjustment of the cutting wheel. The collet has a fine-pitch
thread; one revolution advances or retracts the wheel 1/32", a half turn
1/64", a quarter turn 1/128", etc. The knurled thumbscrew then locks the
setting.

Just $39.50 for the "Imperial Graduated" one... Reminds me of the
"Red-rider BB gun with the compass in the stock...".
:)

Bill wrote:
> "Steve Turner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Bill wrote:
>>> My wife mentioned she would like to give me a woodworking
>>> item for xmas...haven't mentioned anything yet.
>> I'd sure like to have a Lee Valley Imperial Micro-Adjust Marking Gauge for
>> Christmas, if anybody wants to get one for me:
>>
>> http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=59455&cat=1,42936
>>
> Did you read the fine print:
> Due to the number of requests for a micro-adjust feature, we developed a
> second model with a slightly longer body fitted with a two-stage collet to
> allow fine adjustment of the cutting wheel. The collet has a fine-pitch
> thread; one revolution advances or retracts the wheel 1/32", a half turn
> 1/64", a quarter turn 1/128", etc. The knurled thumbscrew then locks the
> setting.

Oh yeah, I've read it. Many times. :-)

> Just $39.50 for the "Imperial Graduated" one... Reminds me of the
> "Red-rider BB gun with the compass in the stock...".
> :)

Just call me "Ralphie" :-)

--
"Even if your wife is happy but you're unhappy, you're still happier
than you'd be if you were happy and your wife was unhappy." - Red Green
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

"Steve Turner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>>> I'd sure like to have a Lee Valley Imperial Micro-Adjust Marking Gauge
>>> for Christmas, if anybody wants to get one for me:
>>>
>>> http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=59455&cat=1,42936
>>>
>> Did you read the fine print:
>> Due to the number of requests for a micro-adjust feature, we developed a
>> second model with a slightly longer body fitted with a two-stage collet
>> to allow fine adjustment of the cutting wheel. The collet has a
>> fine-pitch thread; one revolution advances or retracts the wheel 1/32", a
>> half turn 1/64", a quarter turn 1/128", etc. The knurled thumbscrew then
>> locks the setting.
>
> Oh yeah, I've read it. Many times. :-)


Perhaps we could use our collective minds to develop the design for one
using a
a threaded steel rod.

The threaded steel rod is my (first) suggestion. A closer inspection
indicates that
they have tapped the end to hold the cutter. Performing that may not be so
easy
for those of us not adequately equipped, but surely something could be
screwed
on the end instead. Take it away...

Steve Turner wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>> My wife mentioned she would like to give me a woodworking
>> item for xmas...haven't mentioned anything yet.
>
> I'd sure like to have a Lee Valley Imperial Micro-Adjust Marking Gauge
> for Christmas, if anybody wants to get one for me:
>
> http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=59455&cat=1,42936
>
> I think your wife wants to get you one too Bill. :-)
>

She does. Take it from me.

I love that guage. I use it constantly. I rarely bitch about anything
that LV sells, but I do have one minor complaint with the markings on
this tool. I can't really read them and have to use either a micrometer
or indirect measuring to set it up. Which is likely the best way anyway,
but the markings could be a bit darker.

However, it's still a wonderful marking too.

Tanus

"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Steve Turner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>>> I'd sure like to have a Lee Valley Imperial Micro-Adjust Marking Gauge
>>>> for Christmas, if anybody wants to get one for me:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=59455&cat=1,42936
>>>>
>>> Did you read the fine print:
>>> Due to the number of requests for a micro-adjust feature, we developed a
>>> second model with a slightly longer body fitted with a two-stage collet
>>> to allow fine adjustment of the cutting wheel. The collet has a
>>> fine-pitch thread; one revolution advances or retracts the wheel 1/32",
>>> a half turn 1/64", a quarter turn 1/128", etc. The knurled thumbscrew
>>> then locks the setting.
>>
>> Oh yeah, I've read it. Many times. :-)
>
>
> Perhaps we could use our collective minds to develop the design for one
> using a
> a threaded steel rod.
>
> The threaded steel rod is my (first) suggestion. A closer inspection
> indicates that they have tapped the end to hold the cutter. Performing
> that may not be so easy for those of us not adequately equipped, but
> surely something could be screwed on the end instead. Take it away...

4 nuts (may as well choose them chrome plated) , placed two on each side of
a
cutter which ensure that the cutter could be removed for quick replacement
or sharpening.
Alternately, the two further from the end could be replaced by one brazed in
place.
One side of one of the nuts can be marked as a reference for adjustment of
the "fence".

"Steve Turner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Bill wrote:
>> My wife mentioned she would like to give me a woodworking
>> item for xmas...haven't mentioned anything yet.
>
> I'd sure like to have a Lee Valley Imperial Micro-Adjust Marking Gauge for
> Christmas, if anybody wants to get one for me:
>
> http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=59455&cat=1,42936
>
> I think your wife wants to get you one too Bill. :-)
>

Steve,

I picked up a guage on sale at Rockler this month for $9.99 ($5 off).
Hopefully it will
work well-enough for someone who has never used one before. You were right,
my
wife snatched it right out of my hand. :-) Please correct me if I am wrong:
it can be used
to mark mortises and tenons, right? So if I have two 3/4" boards that I
mark 1/8" on each
side, shaping a tenon out of one board and cutting a mortise in the other, I
should get
perfect fit, no? It'll never happen? Sand the tenon accordingly? Any
tips?

I just read in Woodsmith about a simple jig (just a block) used to make sure
the craftsperson
cuts the bottom of the dovetail joint (perfectly) square by holding the
smooth face of the
chisel up against the block while cutting down. Seems like that idea may
come in handy
for trimming up mortises and tenons too.

I was thinking of making some endtables (as well as a workbench), but I
think I should
practice my joinery skills on smaller and less-expensive pieces first.

I was admiring their 9" Rockler woodworkers vise while I was there
($129.99). Might come in
handy for my woodworking bench... :)

Happy holidays (to all),
Bill

"dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>> "CW" wrote:
>>
>>> No, he's not. Bend the wire like a Z. Put one end in the chuck. Bring
>>> the table up (or the quill down) until the free end of the wire comes
>>> close to touching the table and turn the spindle by hand. Keep creeping
>>> down until the end of the wire touches the table all the way around as
>>> you turn the spindle. The further the end of the wire is from the
>>> spindle centerline, the more accurate it will be.
>> =================================
>>
>> Clever.
>
>
> Still relies on the center portion in the chuck to be perpendicular and
> straight else't the whole thing rotates around an inclined axis.
>
> --

No need for it to be strait. No matter what shape it is, it is not going to
change the spindle axis. The wire will rotate around that axis.

On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:18:25 -0500, Bill wrote:

> How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS, BS,
> etc? Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of $39.99. I
> think the squares may also come in handy when installing a vise on my
> workbench to be (so I
> need a larget one for that?).

I think that's the same set I bought at Woodcraft. The precision of
(IIRC) 0.0006" is marked on the blades, but no indication of whether
that's overall or per inch. In either case, I set the 6" up against a
pricey machinists square on a flat surface and there was absolutely no
light between the blades. I'm happy.



--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

-MIKE- wrote:

> I'm aware of all those things. I honestly hope you succeed and sell a
> bunch.
> I know there are people who like to pay a bunch of money for stuff.

You're pissing in the wind arguing with Ed ... it won't get you
anywhere. Just do yourself a favor and DAGS ... you'll quickly find this
subject has been beaten to death over at least a decade, as well as find
out quickly that some of us aren't the only cranky old farts around here. :)

That said, his TS-Aligner Jr is above just being an excellent tool, it
is also something of a rarity in manufacturing in the US in this day and
age. While many may not consider it a necessity, just like the Fein
Multi-tool, there is little else that will do the job as well when you
really need it.

Suffice it to say, if you used one just once, you wouldn't want to go
back to anything else.

Let sleeping dogs lie ... a word to the wise.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

The idea is to sweep a circle having a common center point and length.
If it grases the surface in a circle - turning by hand - if it digs in -
that side is high....

It is simply a single rod that is bent off center to sweep a circle.

Martin

dpb wrote:
> Phisherman wrote:
> ...
>> For testing drill press runout you can, with the power cord unplugged,
>> use a coat hanger chucked in the drill press such that it lightly
>> touches the drill press table top. When it is even all the way
>> around, the spindle is perpendicular to the table top. No special
>> tools needed!
>
> ??? I've never seen a precision-enough coat hanger that any part of it
> would be straight/level enough in reference to any other that it would
> be of any use as a measuring tool...
>
> How does this work, exactly, again?????
>
> --

"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS, BS,
> etc?
> Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of $39.99.
> I think the squares may also come in handy when installing a vise on my
> workbench to be (so I
> need a larget one for that?).
>
> A good graduated combination square would be useful too, no?
> If the engineers squares above were graduated I'd probably use them so
> much
> for general tasks that I'd end up messing them up/dropping them...
>
> At this point, I don't even have a good steel rule. Some of you have seen
> me around here long enough to know I am a beginner. What should I be
> collecting along these
> lines?
>
> Thanks,
> Bill
>
> P.S. Cleaned the (8') gutters today with a Sear ShopVac accessory
> ($19.99). Definitely a great tool
> for that chore! Since I recently had new roof installed, besides leaves
> they were full of grit and nails, etc.
> It blows leaves, cleans gutters, vacuums the car well. I never before
> got such satisfaction from a "vacuum cleaner"! : )
>

You'll never regret buying a good square. However, they're only good 'til
the first drop, so consider how (and where) you'll be using it. For the
purposes you describe, I don't think you can go wrong with the Groz. If
you're still not sure, buy the Groz, take it to your shop and see how much
or if it's off square, and if that doesn't meet with your minimum
requirements, take it back and tell them it's not square and step up to the
Starett.

On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:18:25 -0500, "Bill" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS, BS, etc?
>Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of $39.99.
>I think the squares may also come in handy when installing a vise on my
>workbench to be (so I
>need a larget one for that?).
>
>A good graduated combination square would be useful too, no?
>If the engineers squares above were graduated I'd probably use them so much
>for general tasks that I'd end up messing them up/dropping them...
>
>At this point, I don't even have a good steel rule. Some of you have seen
>me around here long enough to know I am a beginner. What should I be
>collecting along these
>lines?
>
>Thanks,
>Bill
>
>P.S. Cleaned the (8') gutters today with a Sear ShopVac accessory ($19.99).
>Definitely a great tool
>for that chore! Since I recently had new roof installed, besides leaves
>they were full of grit and nails, etc.
>It blows leaves, cleans gutters, vacuums the car well. I never before got
>such satisfaction from a "vacuum cleaner"! : )
>


I use my Starrett combination square. It's a little bit better than
using an index card.

On 11/23/2009 08:18 PM, Bill wrote:

> At this point, I don't even have a good steel rule. Some of you have seen
> me around here long enough to know I am a beginner. What should I be
> collecting along these lines?

An engineers square is usually quite stock-heavy. They're mostly useful
for machine setup. A try square is better for laying out joinery.

A good steel rule is accurate right out to each end, with easy to read
markings. A 12" is nice, and a 6" comes in handy for smaller items.
Some have markings on the end as well (useful for setting bit or blade
height). The 6" Shinwa (at Lee Valley and other places) does a good job.

A good combination square is useful. The Starrett or equivalent is
expensive but nice. Another option would be to take a 45/45/90 plastic
drafting triangle (generally very accurate) down to the big box store
and test all the cheaper squares until you find one that happens to be
accurate. Also check that the blade is straight.

Chris

Grazes the surface that is :

Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
> The idea is to sweep a circle having a common center point and length.
> If it grases the surface in a circle - turning by hand - if it digs in -
> that side is high....
>
> It is simply a single rod that is bent off center to sweep a circle.
>
> Martin
>
> dpb wrote:
>> Phisherman wrote:
>> ...
>>> For testing drill press runout you can, with the power cord unplugged,
>>> use a coat hanger chucked in the drill press such that it lightly
>>> touches the drill press table top. When it is even all the way
>>> around, the spindle is perpendicular to the table top. No special
>>> tools needed!
>>
>> ??? I've never seen a precision-enough coat hanger that any part of
>> it would be straight/level enough in reference to any other that it
>> would be of any use as a measuring tool...
>>
>> How does this work, exactly, again?????
>>
>> --

"Bill" <[email protected]> writes:

> Beginner's question: Say I use a fine square to mark a 3 or 4 inch
> line "perfectly", with an awl or knife. How can I extend that line to, say,
> 10 or 20 inches with accuracy that would please Starrett's customers?

Well, a Starrett fan would have a 24" combination ruler. But I would
either make additional marks along the edge, and especially the other
end of the piece of wood, extending the line. and then use a
straightedge or framing square.

"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> writes:

> Since most of the above applies to metal working machinery, how does
> it transfer to wood working tolerances?

I'm not a big tolerance proponent, but making something like a 12" by
12" by 12" box with 1/8th" thickness required careful tolerances.
That's because small errors accumulate over distance and over cobined
angles.

I have a few combination squares. I bought a Starrett off eBay at a
good price. (I actually bought pieces separately - cheaper than buying
a set.) Note that there are two kinds of heads - hardened or not.
One has a pebbled finshish, and the other is smoother.

The Starrett, even though it's old and has a patina, is still very
readable. I have a Lufkin and Stanley rule one that has some slight
rust, and the readability of the Starrett is much nicer. It's brighter
and easier to read in dim light. There is not as much tarnish on
it. Perhaps it's the hardened blade. Also - the little pin you use to
scribe has a nice solid feel to it, compared to the other two combo
squares I have.

There's a certain joy in using a Starrett.

One of these days I'm going to get a 4" or 6" double square Starrett.
I like the Lee Valley DS ($20 on sale) very much, but one of these days....

"Bill" <[email protected]> writes:

> "Bruce Barnett" <[email protected]> wrote in
> message news:[email protected]...
>> I found that a nice 4" double square is a pleasure to use, and very handy.
>> They usually go for $40, but I've seen sales for $20.
>>
>> I use that more than a fixed engineering square.
>
>
> If you wish to check that your TS blade is vertical, for instance, do you
> just use the base of the double square?


I move the blade so that it's flush with the handle, so it has the
same shape as an engineering square.

It's also handy to measure router bit height, etc.

"Bill" <[email protected]> writes:

> How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS, BS, etc?
> Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of $39.99.

I found that a nice 4" double square is a pleasure to use, and very handy.
They usually go for $40, but I've seen sales for $20.

I use that more than a fixed engineering square.

-MIKE- <[email protected]> writes:

>> FWIW, The TS Aligner Jr can do several things
>> Mitre Gauge alignment
>> Sliding Table alignment
>> Spindle alignment on a drill press
>> Jointer blade height
>>
>
> The one I made for 15 bucks does all that.
> It's a dial indicator on a stick, there's nothing ingenious about that. :-)

Interesting. Is there any write-up? For instance, how do you get the
table of a drill press to be square to the spindle?

>>> The BealeBox and iGaging (makes the Beale) AngleCube have magnets on
>>> three sides with make it a little more convenient.
>> So does the Wixey
>
> Are you sure about that? Did they upgrade it?

Sorry. I was incorrect. You are right.
The Wixey only has magnets on the bottom.