For what ever reason, Delta is not what it used to be, not even compared
to two years ago.
Bought and sold again one year ago and is now owned by Chang Type
Industrial Co. Delta completely moved its facility, hired new staff,
and retooled. Their goal last year was to build 300 Unisaws 6 months
after being sold and moved. This might explain why parts were hard to
come by last year and why you seldom see a new Unisaw, that is an
average of one new Unisaw per state per month.
Delta is not a giant any more.
The new U.S. office headquarters and manufacturing facility in Anderson
NC is only 56,000 sq feet. The offices will take up 6,000 sq feet. The
fabrication and manufacturing takes place in a building that that would
fit on a 200'x 250' rectangle.
The good news is that the Unisaw is being built in the US and those
machines that were being built in the old facility will be built in the
new facility.
http://www.woodworkersjournal.com/Ezine/Articles/Delta_to_Become_Independent_Company_Once_Again_8244.aspx
http://www.woodworkersjournal.com/Ezine/Articles/New_Delta_Celebrates_Anniversary_Announces_Tools_9008.aspx
On 3/21/2012 10:59 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>
> "Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> So, excluding the SawStop, which isn't anywhere on any of my lists,
>> what might be considered the "Gold Standard" now in a cabinet saw?
>
> Probably the Powermatic... That said, I find that my Jet XActa cabinet
> saw is perfectly fine. Note, though, that I added a Biesemeyer
> T-Splitter to the saw... The newer version with a riving knife is a
> better rig.
>
> John
>
>
>
I am not so sure Powermatic sets any standards since the 2000 was
introduced, IIRC it is made in Taiwan. I would go for their older out
of production Model 66. While Amazon still shows the 66 still available
Powermatic no longer shows it on their site.
I have the Jet Exacta JTAS cabinet saw also and am perfectly happy with it.
On Mar 22, 5:12=A0pm, "Max" <[email protected]> wrote:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Questions have been posed by the previous input:
> 1. Is a Grizzly (foreign made) better than a Powermatic or Unisaw?
> 2. What features do others consider most important? =A0(never mind the fe=
nce,
> it can be purchased separately if necessary)
> I don't dismiss anyone's suggestions.
>
> Max
I'll frame this it the time frame when I bought my Grizzly G1023S:
1) When I bought my saw, in about 2000, I believe it was a better saw
than the Delta Unisaws being sold at that time. As I previously
stated, I was pretty much predisposed to the Unisaw based on
experience from 25-35 years earlier with older Unisaws. When I
started looking at the new Unisaws I was disappointed. Is it a better
machine than the Powermatic? No. However, at the time in order to
buy a Unisaw off of the floor I was going to have to buy it with and
extension table that I did not have room for at the time; and it was
going to cost about $1,400 (I was prepared to pay that amount until I
saw the "new" saws. The Powermatic was $2,000 and out of my price
range. As I recall I paid about $875 for my saw plus $75 shipping.
In terms of quality, price and utility I considered it a better value.
2) I wanted a good solid cabinet saw to replace my 25 year old
Craftsman contractor's saw. I wanted cast iron tables, good fit an
finish, at least 3HP, heavy trunnions smooth multiple belt drive and a
strong and reliable fence. It met or exceeded all expectations. As
far as buying a saw and replacing the fence with something like a
Biesmeyer - that was not something I even considered. The Grizzly/
Shop Fox Classic is becoming a classic. It is not a Biesmeyer clone
but similar. I have read several fence reviews before and after my
purchase and it always hangs in there with Biesmeyer and others. On
of the magazines, a few years ago, even featured it as a good
aftermarket replacement of other saws. With regard to integrity and
smoothness, I did the ole' nickle test on my 11-12 year old saw just a
month or so ago. The machine is starting to show a little use but the
nickle stayed put.
Another poster suggested that Grizzly had 3rd rank quality control.
Most of Grizzly's machinery is built wotjin ISO certified quality
systems. I went through ISO certification at my previous employer and
it isn't something that is just handed to a company. I certainly saw
no lack of quality control in my saw, or the new 15" Grizzly planer I
bought last year. Our son-in-law is a very serious woodworker and was
able to buy a complete woodshop when he got out of med school. He
bought the big 8" long bed Griz planer, drill press and surface planer
8 years ago and has on complaints.
Another poster suggested there was probably a parts problem with
Grizzly. Nope. I have only had a problem with two Grizzly products
One was an orbital sander that I dropped. The other was with a hand
held drum sander that blew its inflatable drum (sandpaper drum failure
and, well... maybe a little overinflated). In both cases I had a
replacement or parts within 2-3 days at no cost.
Up until about 7-8 years ago Fine Woodworking refused to include any
Grizzly products in their product reviews. About 7 years ago they
ranked the Grizzly 8", long bed jointer near or at the top of a group
of Powermatics, Jets, Deltas, etc. Since then Grizzly ends up in the
rankings often. (No I am not entering a discussion on the quality of
the magazine).
At the end of the day, folks who try to rank Grizzly in a category
with Harbor Freight are uninformed. No comparison. And no, I am not
a Grizzly-only shop. My cabinet saw and planer are sitting among
Powermatic, Jet, Delta and other machine tools. The Grizzly machines
are in the same class as all of them.
So There! :O)
RonB
On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 16:17:05 -0700, Larry Jaques
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>I'm with you, Ed. Quality has to go into the product before
>consistency. Then the ISO procedures can ensure consistency and,
>hopefully, quality. Good QA is necessary all along. I saw ISO coming
>in back when I was an inspector, and hooted as I heard it being pawned
>off as a quality control procedure. It ain't! (but it helps)
About a dozen years ago, one of my suppliers became ISO9000 with all
the hoopla. It did make them very consistent. Once certified, they
f'd up every order until I finally dropped them.
Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> The puffed up chicken and pork is labeled as such and there are
> readily available alternatives. Cheap store carry that crap, the
> better stores do not.
Yes, and pink slime should be on the label too.
> If you don't mind your beef processed with ammonia, that is your
> decision. I have a meat grinder.
No meat grinder here. I'd like the better hamburger too, and I know where
to walk to get it <http://www.swissporkstoreoffairlawn.com/>.
Ammonia is better than salmonella or E. coli ...
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote in news:ce631232-9326-44e7-ae32-
[email protected]:
> Now the laughing really started. All was well with the universe, the
> spell had not been broken, they screwed up yet again, even by getting
> it right...twice!
So you accepted both deliveries, and paid once, and told them to come pick
up the wrong delivery?
Hey, good luck today, Rob!
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
On 24 Mar 2012 19:53:23 GMT, Han <[email protected]> wrote:
>Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>
>> Meantime, we cook up some Pink Slime and think we are getting a good
>> price on our food bill. I save 5½ a pound at Bargain Mart over the
>> big Supermart. Yep, pure American made Pink Slime. Just as good as
>> melamine.
>
>Umm, no. Melamine is a poison when consumed in the quantities they used.
>Also, that finely textured beef, aka pink slime is indeed beef in the sense
>it is derived from cows. Moreover, we already consume too much red meat (I
>find it yummy too), so some dilution with what is basically filler is
>really not that bad. Remember, turkey, chicken and so on gets puffed up
>with water and chemicals too. Luckily NOT melamine.
>
>NOTE:
>I'm not condoning adding pink slime without explicitly stating on the label
>that it is added.
The puffed up chicken and pork is labeled as such and there are
readily available alternatives. Cheap store carry that crap, the
better stores do not.
If you don't mind your beef processed with ammonia, that is your
decision. I have a meat grinder.
On Mar 25, 10:59=A0pm, Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 16:17:05 -0700, Larry Jaques
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >I'm with you, Ed. Quality has to go into the product before
> >consistency. =A0Then the ISO procedures can ensure consistency and,
> >hopefully, quality. =A0Good QA is necessary all along. =A0I saw ISO comi=
ng
> >in back when I was an inspector, and hooted as I heard it being pawned
> >off as a quality control procedure. =A0It ain't! (but it helps)
>
> About a dozen years ago, one of my suppliers became ISO9000 with all
> the hoopla. =A0It did make them very consistent. =A0Once certified, they
> f'd up every order until I finally dropped them.
All that hoopla hasn't amounted to a hill of beans with many
suppliers.
Wilsonart Canada, for instance, bragged about all those ISO numbers.
Their delivery system was so incredibly bad that it actually became a
source of humour for us at my shop. They used their own trucks and
sometimes other carriers. They had managed to get 23 shipments in a
period of 6 months, wrong. 23 out of 23. Wrong sinks, Wrong adhesive
colours, Wrong quantities Batting a 1000. Then one day, a truck pulled
up and it had 6 sheets of 12-ft x 30" solid surface, the associated
sinks and adhesives and the whole order was correct. We laughed and
laughed.. they finally got one right.
A half hour after that truck left, another truck, this time their own
truck, pulled in with the identical order on it to the one that was
just delivered.
Now the laughing really started. All was well with the universe, the
spell had not been broken, they screwed up yet again, even by getting
it right...twice!
"Robatoy" wrote in message
news:ce631232-9326-44e7-ae32-49e8477ad269@j14g2000vbc.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 25, 10:59 pm, Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 16:17:05 -0700, Larry Jaques
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >I'm with you, Ed. Quality has to go into the product before
> >consistency. Then the ISO procedures can ensure consistency and,
> >hopefully, quality. Good QA is necessary all along. I saw ISO coming
> >in back when I was an inspector, and hooted as I heard it being pawned
> >off as a quality control procedure. It ain't! (but it helps)
>
> About a dozen years ago, one of my suppliers became ISO9000 with all
> the hoopla. It did make them very consistent. Once certified, they
> f'd up every order until I finally dropped them.
All that hoopla hasn't amounted to a hill of beans with many
suppliers.
Wilsonart Canada, for instance, bragged about all those ISO numbers.
Their delivery system was so incredibly bad that it actually became a
source of humour for us at my shop. They used their own trucks and
sometimes other carriers. They had managed to get 23 shipments in a
period of 6 months, wrong. 23 out of 23. Wrong sinks, Wrong adhesive
colours, Wrong quantities Batting a 1000. Then one day, a truck pulled
up and it had 6 sheets of 12-ft x 30" solid surface, the associated
sinks and adhesives and the whole order was correct. We laughed and
laughed.. they finally got one right.
A half hour after that truck left, another truck, this time their own
truck, pulled in with the identical order on it to the one that was
just delivered.
Now the laughing really started. All was well with the universe, the
spell had not been broken, they screwed up yet again, even by getting
it right...twice!
=============================================================
There is a saying in the aircraft industry that a plane will not fly until
the weight of the paper work meets or exceeds the weight of the plane. I
worked in a shop one time that did aircraft and military work. They were, of
course, ISO certified. We got the chance to get into the RV after market
parts business. Our ISO certification made it impossible to do as they would
have to have the same inspections, certifications and paper work as aircraft
parts or they could not be in the shop. That ate or profit so that
opportunity was sunk.
On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 00:22:18 -0400, Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
>I did not ignore it. Not everything from China is crap. Some is, some
>it not.
Your statement above it too limited. The question is, How much is crap
and how much is not
Sure, there's always going to be some products that function
adequately, but whether they meet the criteria of what one would call
"quality" is another question.
Just the fact that the vast bulk of China's products are able to
compete rather easily in regards to cost should tell you all you most
of what you need to know.
Products made in China or products made in North America? Basically,
it's all made the same from the same materials with similar equipment.
The only possible difference is the cost of manpower. And, considering
that the bulk of most consumer products these days are machine made,
manpower cost is not as much of a factor as it once was.
China can and does take shortcuts with its manufacturing. The controls
and laws in China are very limited compared to North American
standards. Of course, this is just my opinion like every other opinion
here. But, it's not an opinion without basis.
On Mar 21, 7:04=A0am, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
> For what ever reason, Delta is not what it used to be, not even compared
> to two years ago.
>
> Bought and sold again one year ago and is now owned by Chang Type
> Industrial Co. =A0Delta completely moved its facility, hired new staff,
> and retooled. =A0Their goal last year was to build 300 Unisaws 6 months
> after being sold and moved. =A0This might explain why parts were hard to
> come by last year and why you seldom see a new Unisaw, that is an
> average of one new Unisaw per state per month.
>
> Delta is not a giant any more.
> The new U.S. office headquarters and manufacturing facility in Anderson
> NC is only 56,000 sq feet. =A0The offices will take up 6,000 sq feet. =A0=
The
> fabrication and manufacturing takes place in a building that that would
> fit on a 200'x 250' rectangle.
>
> The good news is that the Unisaw is =A0being built in the US and those
> machines that were being built in the old facility will be built in the
> new facility.
>
> http://www.woodworkersjournal.com/Ezine/Articles/Delta_to_Become_Inde...
>
> http://www.woodworkersjournal.com/Ezine/Articles/New_Delta_Celebrates...
The low production rate might be why the new Unisaw is so hard to lay
eyes on. The pictures, brochures and reviews look pretty good but
actually touching on down here in southern Kansas is kinda hard.
I hope they have done more than just "reinvent" the saw. The overall
appearance, feel and quality of the Unisaw drooped significantly
during the past 20-30 years. I used one in high school shop. Years
later (mid to late 70's) I used them in a college level cabinet making
class. When I started shopping for a cabinet saw 10-12 years ago I
gravitated toward the new Unisaws and was disappointed. Table finish
was not as good, crank lock knobs were plastic, etc. Ended up with a
Grizzly 1023 with reminded me of the old Unisaw. I hope Delta has
taken the new machine back to old standards.
RonB
On Mar 21, 6:50=A0pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Mar 2012 15:07:19 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >On Mar 21, 3:42=A0pm, Pat Barber <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Sorry... I did leave out the General table saws
> >> and the F-45 =A0http://www.altendorf.de/en/products/f-45.html
>
> >> The F-45 is a real piece of art.
>
> >> I was wandering around the IWF in Atlanta one year and as
> >> I came around a corner my wife was talking to a Altendorf
> >> rep about what a "pretty" saw they built. I whispered the
> >> price in her ear just to see the look on her face.
>
> >> To just play with one will stun you. The sliding table moves with
> >> one finger.
>
> >> If you "ever" get a chance to see one....you will be amazed.
>
> >I'm familiar. A friend of mine and I took a drive to Toronto last year
> >to attend Woodworking Machinery Expo, just to see the Altendorf and
> >General (CNC) people. I thought 35 grand was a good price for that saw
> >(fully loaded). Altendorf is just getting better and better.
>
> Are they fully CNC yet? =A0Just drop a sheet of ply on there and get all
> your cuts from the press of a single button? (After a bit of
> programming. ;)
>
> --
> Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0-- Jimi Hendrix
They can be had with motorized fences. Very accurate.
On Wed, 21 Mar 2012 15:07:19 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Mar 21, 3:42 pm, Pat Barber <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Sorry... I did leave out the General table saws
>> and the F-45 http://www.altendorf.de/en/products/f-45.html
>>
>> The F-45 is a real piece of art.
>>
>> I was wandering around the IWF in Atlanta one year and as
>> I came around a corner my wife was talking to a Altendorf
>> rep about what a "pretty" saw they built. I whispered the
>> price in her ear just to see the look on her face.
>>
>> To just play with one will stun you. The sliding table moves with
>> one finger.
>>
>> If you "ever" get a chance to see one....you will be amazed.
>
>I'm familiar. A friend of mine and I took a drive to Toronto last year
>to attend Woodworking Machinery Expo, just to see the Altendorf and
>General (CNC) people. I thought 35 grand was a good price for that saw
>(fully loaded). Altendorf is just getting better and better.
Are they fully CNC yet? Just drop a sheet of ply on there and get all
your cuts from the press of a single button? (After a bit of
programming. ;)
--
Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens.
-- Jimi Hendrix
On Mar 21, 3:42=A0pm, Pat Barber <[email protected]> wrote:
> Sorry... I did leave out the General table saws
> and the F-45 =A0http://www.altendorf.de/en/products/f-45.html
>
> The F-45 is a real piece of art.
>
> I was wandering around the IWF in Atlanta one year and as
> I came around a corner my wife was talking to a Altendorf
> rep about what a "pretty" saw they built. I whispered the
> price in her ear just to see the look on her face.
>
> To just play with one will stun you. The sliding table moves with
> one finger.
>
> If you "ever" get a chance to see one....you will be amazed.
I'm familiar. A friend of mine and I took a drive to Toronto last year
to attend Woodworking Machinery Expo, just to see the Altendorf and
General (CNC) people. I thought 35 grand was a good price for that saw
(fully loaded). Altendorf is just getting better and better.
On Mar 21, 3:15=A0pm, "John Grossbohlin"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> "Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > On 3/21/2012 12:40 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
> >> I would also say excluding the Saw Stop, that the older 66 sets the
> >> standard. The polished table alone showed quality. The left tilt was
> >> nice. the wheels were good.
>
> > Oddly I never saw the mirror top on the PM an advantage. =A0It is cool =
gee
> > whiz but my experience is that the more coarse the grind on the top the
> > less friction.
>
> > For a couple of examples, My old cast iron Craftsman top was crude by a=
ny
> > polishing standards yet with a layer of TopCote on it and my Jet cabine=
t
> > saw with smoooth top the Craftsman had FAR FAR less friction.
> > I could toss a small scrap to the top of the Craftsman and it would sli=
de
> > off the top, not even close on the Jet.
>
> My Jet seems better as it gets older... all the little surface scratches
> that have accumulated, along with a well established coat of wax lets she=
et
> goods glide over it. =A0I don't really notice any difference with "boards=
" as
> the surface area isn't all that big.
>
> I have the same issue with my DJ-20 Jointer... It's very smooth and has a
> lot of friction when I face joint. If I don't keep it well waxed it's a
> chore to feed boards through it... When I first had issues I thought it w=
as
> just dull but after a good waxing performance was restored.
>
> A problem with the question that starts this thread is it doesn't say for
> what purpose. If I were running sheet goods all day my answer would be mu=
ch
> different from my initial answer...
>
> John
Absolutely. Case goods require totally different equipment than, say,
oak park benches.
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> As much as I despise the lawyer Gass, I'd spring for his saw before I'd
> ever buy another Delta product, "Made(with Chinese parts) in USA, or not.
>
At least he offers a quality product.
There was a time when tools were built by craftsman for craftsman. You did
not make junk. I may be old school, but I have always appreciated a quality
product. Apparently those kinds of things are not covered in MBA school.
On 3/22/2012 8:17 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Mar 2012 16:12:17 -0600, "Max"<[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>> Questions have been posed by the previous input:
>> 1. Is a Grizzly (foreign made) better than a Powermatic or Unisaw?
>> 2. What features do others consider most important? (never mind the fence,
>> it can be purchased separately if necessary)
>> I don't dismiss anyone's suggestions.
>>
>> Max
>
> I don't think Grizzly is a better saw, but it maybe a better value,
> but that depends on your use and needs and thickness of your wallet.
> Grizzly tools seem to need a little more tweaking at setup than some
> other brands, but they can be cheaper and just as good at cutting
> wood.
>
> Comes down to the same Chevy vs. Ford argument that has been around
> for decades. I have a Delta, but would not hesitate to buy Jet or
> Grizzly, or General, or a few other brands. Even if you make the
> final choice by the color of the cabinet, it will be a saw that does
> the job for you.
Googling "#1 rated table saw" resulted in a bias toward Powermatic
PM2000. I found a couple reviews that strongly praised the machine.
Unisaw and General were also highly recommended.
I tend to think that a saw that needs "more tweaking" hasn't been
manufactured to the same quality standard as those that don't.
Certainly, if price is a high priority and the saw can be made to
perform satisfactorily then the decision is made.
But my concern would be that other areas (bearing quality and machining
to close tolerances) might be neglected as well.
Max
On 03/22/2012 07:39 PM, Max wrote:
> On 3/22/2012 8:17 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> On Thu, 22 Mar 2012 16:12:17 -0600, "Max"<[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Questions have been posed by the previous input:
>>> 1. Is a Grizzly (foreign made) better than a Powermatic or Unisaw?
>>> 2. What features do others consider most important? (never mind the
>>> fence,
>>> it can be purchased separately if necessary)
>>> I don't dismiss anyone's suggestions.
>>>
>>> Max
>>
>> I don't think Grizzly is a better saw, but it maybe a better value,
>> but that depends on your use and needs and thickness of your wallet.
>> Grizzly tools seem to need a little more tweaking at setup than some
>> other brands, but they can be cheaper and just as good at cutting
>> wood.
>>
>> Comes down to the same Chevy vs. Ford argument that has been around
>> for decades. I have a Delta, but would not hesitate to buy Jet or
>> Grizzly, or General, or a few other brands. Even if you make the
>> final choice by the color of the cabinet, it will be a saw that does
>> the job for you.
>
> Googling "#1 rated table saw" resulted in a bias toward Powermatic
> PM2000. I found a couple reviews that strongly praised the machine.
> Unisaw and General were also highly recommended.
>
> I tend to think that a saw that needs "more tweaking" hasn't been
> manufactured to the same quality standard as those that don't.
> Certainly, if price is a high priority and the saw can be made to
> perform satisfactorily then the decision is made.
> But my concern would be that other areas (bearing quality and machining
> to close tolerances) might be neglected as well.
>
> Max
Not sure where the "tweaking" evaluation comes from, but the Griz
equipment I have required none - G0555 bandsaw, GO505 12.5" planer and
GO452 6" jointer. I did have to "tweak" a little when I installed the
riser kit on the bandsaw, but only about an hour or two including the
install.
It is certainly no more "tweaking" and possibly less than some of the
other equipment I have.
--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill
On 3/23/2012 12:08 AM, Steve Turner wrote:
> A 15" planer that is no longer offered, but is virtually identical to models
> still available from Delta, General, and Shop Fox.
> http://www.grizzly.com/products/8-x-72-Jointer-with-Mobile-Base/G0656
> http://www.grizzly.com/products/1-1-2-HP-Shaper/G1035
> http://www.grizzly.com/products/14-Extreme-Series-Bandsaw/G0555X
> http://www.grizzly.com/products/2-HP-Dust-Collector-with-2-5-Micron-Bag-and-New-Impeller/G1029Z2
>
> (Not completely sure if the dust collector is the same model)
>
> I've never heard him complain one iota about the quality of any of those
> machines, though I have used them all and I will say that I'm not too enamored
> of the band saw or the dust collector (probably because I have machines that
> are of a much better design). Unfortunately, I don't have any hands-on
Just curious, what did you not like about the 14" Bandsaw? I'm currently
considering the 14 or a 17 as secondary machine for a semi-permanent
specialty task. Don't need a Laguna but need something true and reliable
to eliminate blade change-out between tasks.
--
Digger
Bob O'Dell
On 3/22/2012 10:07 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
> On 03/22/2012 07:39 PM, Max wrote:
>> On 3/22/2012 8:17 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>> On Thu, 22 Mar 2012 16:12:17 -0600, "Max"<[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Questions have been posed by the previous input:
>>>> 1. Is a Grizzly (foreign made) better than a Powermatic or Unisaw?
>>>> 2. What features do others consider most important? (never mind the
>>>> fence,
>>>> it can be purchased separately if necessary)
>>>> I don't dismiss anyone's suggestions.
>>>>
>>>> Max
>>>
>>> I don't think Grizzly is a better saw, but it maybe a better value,
>>> but that depends on your use and needs and thickness of your wallet.
>>> Grizzly tools seem to need a little more tweaking at setup than some
>>> other brands, but they can be cheaper and just as good at cutting
>>> wood.
>>>
>>> Comes down to the same Chevy vs. Ford argument that has been around
>>> for decades. I have a Delta, but would not hesitate to buy Jet or
>>> Grizzly, or General, or a few other brands. Even if you make the
>>> final choice by the color of the cabinet, it will be a saw that does
>>> the job for you.
>>
>> Googling "#1 rated table saw" resulted in a bias toward Powermatic
>> PM2000. I found a couple reviews that strongly praised the machine.
>> Unisaw and General were also highly recommended.
>>
>> I tend to think that a saw that needs "more tweaking" hasn't been
>> manufactured to the same quality standard as those that don't.
>> Certainly, if price is a high priority and the saw can be made to
>> perform satisfactorily then the decision is made.
>> But my concern would be that other areas (bearing quality and machining
>> to close tolerances) might be neglected as well.
>>
>> Max
>
> Not sure where the "tweaking" evaluation comes from, but the Griz equipment I
> have required none - G0555 bandsaw, GO505 12.5" planer and GO452 6" jointer. I
> did have to "tweak" a little when I installed the riser kit on the bandsaw, but
> only about an hour or two including the install.
>
> It is certainly no more "tweaking" and possibly less than some of the other
> equipment I have.
I have three Grizzly machines:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/15-Planer/G0453
http://www.grizzly.com/products/2-HP-Cyclone-Dust-Collector/G0440
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Heavy-Duty-Wood-Lathe/G1495
All three are excellent machines and none have required any "tweaking" to get
them to operate as designed. My father has several Grizzly machines as well:
A 15" planer that is no longer offered, but is virtually identical to models
still available from Delta, General, and Shop Fox.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/8-x-72-Jointer-with-Mobile-Base/G0656
http://www.grizzly.com/products/1-1-2-HP-Shaper/G1035
http://www.grizzly.com/products/14-Extreme-Series-Bandsaw/G0555X
http://www.grizzly.com/products/2-HP-Dust-Collector-with-2-5-Micron-Bag-and-New-Impeller/G1029Z2
(Not completely sure if the dust collector is the same model)
I've never heard him complain one iota about the quality of any of those
machines, though I have used them all and I will say that I'm not too enamored
of the band saw or the dust collector (probably because I have machines that
are of a much better design). Unfortunately, I don't have any hands-on
experience with any Grizzly tablesaws, other than having inspected a G1023 many
years ago (over 10) at the Grizzly store in Springfield MO, prior to choosing
the Delta Unisaw instead, mainly because the Griz didn't have a 52" fence and I
much preferred the Delta Unifence to whatever the Grizzly was using at the
time. My sense is that Grizzly's quality and fit and finish has actually
improved quite a bit since then.
--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
On 3/23/2012 9:45 AM, Digger wrote:
> On 3/23/2012 12:08 AM, Steve Turner wrote:
>> A 15" planer that is no longer offered, but is virtually identical to models
>> still available from Delta, General, and Shop Fox.
>> http://www.grizzly.com/products/8-x-72-Jointer-with-Mobile-Base/G0656
>> http://www.grizzly.com/products/1-1-2-HP-Shaper/G1035
>> http://www.grizzly.com/products/14-Extreme-Series-Bandsaw/G0555X
>> http://www.grizzly.com/products/2-HP-Dust-Collector-with-2-5-Micron-Bag-and-New-Impeller/G1029Z2
>>
>> (Not completely sure if the dust collector is the same model)
>>
>> I've never heard him complain one iota about the quality of any of those
>> machines, though I have used them all and I will say that I'm not too enamored
>> of the band saw or the dust collector (probably because I have machines that
>> are of a much better design). Unfortunately, I don't have any hands-on
>
> Just curious, what did you not like about the 14" Bandsaw? I'm currently
> considering the 14 or a 17 as secondary machine for a semi-permanent
> specialty task. Don't need a Laguna but need something true and reliable
> to eliminate blade change-out between tasks.
It just doesn't seem very sturdy to me. Keep in mind, I'm spoiled by my
Minimax bandsaw, which is built like a tank, but nonetheless I felt like with
little effort and without significant cost they could have done a better job of
designing things, like the height adjustment mechanism that carries the upper
blade guides. It's been several years since I used that saw, so my memory is a
bit dim, but as I recall that whole mechanism just kinda swings in the wind.
The drive wheels are also very lightweight, and there's a fair amount of sheet
metal in the product that could have been sturdied up quite a bit. The whole
things just kinda rattles when it's running.
I should probably clarify that my father's saw is perhaps 8-10 years old, so
I'm not completely sure it's that exact model I referenced in the link, but his
does have a closed base and that's the only closed base model that Grizzly
currently has listed. They may have made improvements to the saw since then,
or it may be a completely different and newer model. As I recall, he didn't
pay anywhere near $800 for his; I think it was closer to $475. I'll ask him if
he can give me a specific model number.
--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
On 3/23/2012 12:08 AM, Steve Turner wrote:
> I have three Grizzly machines:
>
> http://www.grizzly.com/products/15-Planer/G0453
> http://www.grizzly.com/products/2-HP-Cyclone-Dust-Collector/G0440
> http://www.grizzly.com/products/Heavy-Duty-Wood-Lathe/G1495
>
> All three are excellent machines and none have required any "tweaking"
> to get them to operate as designed. My father has several Grizzly
> machines as well:
>
> A 15" planer that is no longer offered, but is virtually identical to
> models still available from Delta, General, and Shop Fox.
I have the 15" planer with the spiral cutter head. Nice too but, it
came with no gear oil, but it mentioned to be sure to check it, it was
supposed to have been filled at the factory. Good thing I checked, I
almost didn't. It was a bear to check and to fill, bad location/design.
I had to go to the parts store for a quart of gear oil, and a funnel
with a long neck to get the oil in.
After only several hours of use, it started to make some funny noises
and was losing power. Turned out the lower belt pulley was lose and
spinning on the arbor. The bolt, washer and key that held the pulley on
was laying on the bottom of the belt cover. They never tightened the
pulley, and didn't have a lock washer on the bolt. The upper pulley did
have a lock washer. Both these issues are quality control issues, but
have about zero effect on the quality of the equipment. I was
*thrilled* it was just a loose pulley, and not something serious.
There are a couple minor design issues I don't like, like how the
rollers on top cover the bolts on the dust cover and the gear oil thing,
and the short power cord, but over all, it is a sweet piece.
It's the only planer I ever owned, so how it compares I don't know. I
can see the quality control issues, but I consider that stuff getting to
know your machine:-)
It works great, and if it is durable, I'll be happy. I expect it will
out last me, so if durable, my son, or whomever, will be happy.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 3/23/2012 11:20 AM, Steve Turner wrote:
> On 3/23/2012 9:45 AM, Digger wrote:
>> On 3/23/2012 12:08 AM, Steve Turner wrote:
>>> A 15" planer that is no longer offered, but is virtually identical to models
>>> still available from Delta, General, and Shop Fox.
>>> http://www.grizzly.com/products/8-x-72-Jointer-with-Mobile-Base/G0656
>>> http://www.grizzly.com/products/1-1-2-HP-Shaper/G1035
>>> http://www.grizzly.com/products/14-Extreme-Series-Bandsaw/G0555X
>>> http://www.grizzly.com/products/2-HP-Dust-Collector-with-2-5-Micron-Bag-and-New-Impeller/G1029Z2
>>>
>>>
>>> (Not completely sure if the dust collector is the same model)
>>>
>>> I've never heard him complain one iota about the quality of any of those
>>> machines, though I have used them all and I will say that I'm not too enamored
>>> of the band saw or the dust collector (probably because I have machines that
>>> are of a much better design). Unfortunately, I don't have any hands-on
>>
>> Just curious, what did you not like about the 14" Bandsaw? I'm currently
>> considering the 14 or a 17 as secondary machine for a semi-permanent
>> specialty task. Don't need a Laguna but need something true and reliable
>> to eliminate blade change-out between tasks.
>
> It just doesn't seem very sturdy to me. Keep in mind, I'm spoiled by my Minimax
> bandsaw, which is built like a tank, but nonetheless I felt like with little
> effort and without significant cost they could have done a better job of
> designing things, like the height adjustment mechanism that carries the upper
> blade guides. It's been several years since I used that saw, so my memory is a
> bit dim, but as I recall that whole mechanism just kinda swings in the wind.
> The drive wheels are also very lightweight, and there's a fair amount of sheet
> metal in the product that could have been sturdied up quite a bit. The whole
> things just kinda rattles when it's running.
>
> I should probably clarify that my father's saw is perhaps 8-10 years old, so
> I'm not completely sure it's that exact model I referenced in the link, but his
> does have a closed base and that's the only closed base model that Grizzly
> currently has listed. They may have made improvements to the saw since then, or
> it may be a completely different and newer model. As I recall, he didn't pay
> anywhere near $800 for his; I think it was closer to $475. I'll ask him if he
> can give me a specific model number.
My father does indeed have a discontinued model, but Grizzly still has the
information for it on their website:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/G1019
(That's another thing I like about Grizzly; their customer service is very
good.) Perhaps you can compare the documentation between this machine and the
G0555X to see what the differences are. I have no doubt that many improvements
have been made.
--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
On Thu, 22 Mar 2012 16:12:17 -0600, "Max" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>Questions have been posed by the previous input:
>1. Is a Grizzly (foreign made) better than a Powermatic or Unisaw?
>2. What features do others consider most important? (never mind the fence,
>it can be purchased separately if necessary)
>I don't dismiss anyone's suggestions.
>
>Max
I don't think Grizzly is a better saw, but it maybe a better value,
but that depends on your use and needs and thickness of your wallet.
Grizzly tools seem to need a little more tweaking at setup than some
other brands, but they can be cheaper and just as good at cutting
wood.
Comes down to the same Chevy vs. Ford argument that has been around
for decades. I have a Delta, but would not hesitate to buy Jet or
Grizzly, or General, or a few other brands. Even if you make the
final choice by the color of the cabinet, it will be a saw that does
the job for you.
"Lee Michaels" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>> As much as I despise the lawyer Gass, I'd spring for his saw before I'd
>> ever buy another Delta product, "Made(with Chinese parts) in USA, or not.
>
>At least he offers a quality product.
>There was a time when tools were built by craftsman for craftsman. You did
>not make junk. I may be old school, but I have always appreciated a
>quality product. Apparently those kinds of things are not covered in MBA
>school.
So, excluding the SawStop, which isn't anywhere on any of my lists, what
might be considered the "Gold Standard" now in a cabinet saw?
Max
Interesting (and valuable) discourse but not much consensus.
I have the Festool TS75 so cutting panels is a cinch.
*IF* I were in the woodworking business some of the "highend" table saws
would certainly be appealing.
My *hobby* results in just enough profit to supply me with sufficient funds
to purchase those tools that might not be industrial grade but still high
quality.
If the "specifications" were narrowed down to that level, what would be the
"Table Saw of Choice"?
Thanks for the dialogue.
Max
Larry Blanchard <[email protected]> wrote in news:jkfmbi$avm$1
@speranza.aioe.org:
>
> Actually, they haven't been making *anything* for quite some time.
> Somebody else bought the name and has applied it to a line of "consumer
> grade" (and that's being polite) tools.
>
A consumption good is something that is consumed/destroyed in the process
of using it. Welding rods and hamburgers are consumption goods. Guess the
manufacturers see their "consumer tools" the same way.
Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.
"Sonny" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> If the "specifications" were narrowed down to that level (hobbyist), what
> would be the
> "Table Saw of Choice"?
Well, I don't think there can be one tablesaw of choice. People's
hobbies are different, their shops are different, probably several
other factors which would dictate what saw is best for a particular
individual. That's why it's good to discuss the various options and
let the individual select which is best or most appropriate for him or
her.
The different woodworking magazines/websites and other similar media
have, also, done these comparisons and reviews (for us?... to, at
least, reference), within the parameters they choose as important and/
or significent, and list the results of their reviews and
evaluations. I would think their methodology is fairly dependable,
too.
Sonny
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Your input is appreciated and I have "googled" the issue.
There are several individuals posting here (and abpw) whose expertise seems
obvious (to me at least).
I subscribe to: Fine Woodworking, Woodcraft, Wood, Woodworker's Journal, and
American Woodworker and enjoy each magazine.
I am persuaded, however, that most of the reviews presented by those
publications are somewhat biased toward advertisers (and in some cases,
toward their sponsors like Woodcraft and Rockler)
Having become reasonably familiar with the type of work in which some of the
members of the rec.ww engage, I have come to rely on their judgment more
than that of the magazines.
By considering my question and the individual who might respond, I believe I
can have more information upon which to make a decision regarding a
particular purchase.
To me, in the above regard, there is never too much information.
And a 10" Cabinet Saw is a 10" Cabinet Saw no matter the *size* of the shop
in which it is serving.
So it seems to me that any 10" Cabinet Saw short of an industrial model
should be under consideration.
That sort of rules out the Altendorf, SCM, etc.
Having narrowed it down to that, I was seeking input.
Prior to the discussion I would have completely ruled out a Grizzly
but........now..........
The saw I have now is a Delta 10" Tilting Arbor saw; a hybrid. It has served
me well but does have some shortcomings, chiefly among which is the dust
collection.
My son wants it. I'm not opposed to letting him have it.
Questions have been posed by the previous input:
1. Is a Grizzly (foreign made) better than a Powermatic or Unisaw?
2. What features do others consider most important? (never mind the fence,
it can be purchased separately if necessary)
I don't dismiss anyone's suggestions.
Max
On 3/25/2012 12:55 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
> Ah yes, I have the same issue with the cultural differences with India.
> I have been displaced many times, They have no problem breaking our
> laws. My boss (Indian) asked me to commit 2 felonies. My co workers (all
> Indian) thought it very unusual for me to refuse. They said I'd be gone
> before anyone knew. So why not...
>
> Ah to be a foreigner in your own country. God I love how screwed up we
> are now.
Got bit back in the the late nineties by the Indians in a similar scenario.
Our entire company website was copied, word for word including some
grammatical and spelling errors that had not been corrected at the time,
and used for the same Internet service that we were providing.
This included all the graphs, charts, photos and media we had
laboriously generated ourselves.
Not a damn thing could be done about it ...
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
On 3/25/2012 10:51 AM, RonB wrote:
> firm. About a week later I got a call from one of the support
> supervisors. The intent was to apologize and thank me for pointing
> out some embarrassing errors in their publication. He admitted that
> my jointer shipped after a very recent update and "translation" of
> their manuals and they found similar errors in other manuals as well.
> A day or so later I received an email to the same effect.
This goes straight to another "translation" issue regarding our food
supply that is of major concern, specifically regarding using the
"organic certification" process for food imported from China.
Apparently, and at least at one point and according a recent on air NPR
interview, the required process itself was never translated into
Mandarin, or any of the myriad other languages where the food is grown.
Consequently the process was basically, and conveniently ignored by the
Chinese, who ingeniously decided, along with complicit third party
inspectors, that simply affixing the U.S.D.A. organic label was
sufficient to make it so.
While that may no longer be the case, it certainly casts doubt on the
wisdom of relinquishing control of your food supply without first making
a point of understanding inherent cultural differences regarding what we
think of as morality, honesty and integrity.
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
On Mar 25, 7:59=A0am, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> Once again, some good products come out of China (I appreciate my iPad),
> but arguably ONLY because of a rigid supervision program. It is NOT the
> Chinese worker, or their masters, who are making that happen because of
> an inherent quest for "quality". More companies, and now consumers, are
> realizing that it takes more effort then its worth simply because of the
> maxim regarding supervision above.
>
> In short, increasingly when left to it own devices, China produces
> mostly _cheap_ crap ... end of story.
>
I need some new dust masks so I check out the two brands at Home
Hardware: a house brand and 3M. The house brand has 3 masks for the
same price as two 3M. House brand is made in China, 3M in the US. Both
supposedly meet the NIOSH95 standard. It's my lungs which are f--ed up
enough after 40 years of smoking (I did quit 4-1/2 years ago). So
guess which one I buy. I simply do not trust the Chinese ones to
actually meet the standard. Maybe they do, maybe they don't, maybe
they're even better than the US-made ones, but I'm not prepared to bet
my health.
I also don't buy food products from China after the Chinese exporters
used white pine seeds in the pine nuts. The White pine seeds are very
bitter and mildly poisonous. THEY WOULD RUIN MY PESTO!!!
Like Swing says: China mostly produces cheap crap. So whatever they
make, whether it is cheap crap or not is tainted by the rest and I
ain't buying any if I can possibly avoid it.
Luigi
On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 17:37:45 -0400, Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 10:47:43 -0500, Steve Turner
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On 3/25/2012 1:22 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>> On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 01:24:02 -0400, Dave<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 00:53:21 -0400, Ed Pawlowski<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> Let's define quality. It is a product that works and will last for
>>>>> the time it is designed to.
>>>>
>>>> That's a piss poor definition of quality in my opinion Ed. To me
>>>> "quality" is a concept that sets something above its competitors.
>>>> Whether that means something that lasts longer, looks better or
>>>> operates better than a competitor, it certainly does *not* mean that
>>>> it's just "Ok".
>>>
>>> That goes back to my original definition of ISO. It assures a
>>> consistent product. It does not assure a quality product as you
>>> described above.
>>>
>>> You either meet the standards set or you don't.
>>>
>>> ISO does not set anything apart from it competitors, make it last
>>> longer or operate better. Therefore, it is not a quality system, nor
>>> does it assure a "quality" product.
>>
>>Then how come part of following the ISO process requires the keeping of
>>"quality records"? It IS a "quality system" in that it is designed to ensure
>>*consistent* quality, to whatever degree YOU define the term "quality".
>
>That was my original definition, a consistent product. If you
>consider that a quality product, OK with me. Dave seemed to disagree
>and think it is something above the others. I disagree on that point.
>
>My point is, ISO does not guarantee a product better than others, It
>just means it is what you say it is, be it a superior product or a
>crap product. But consistent crap from box to box.
I'm with you, Ed. Quality has to go into the product before
consistency. Then the ISO procedures can ensure consistency and,
hopefully, quality. Good QA is necessary all along. I saw ISO coming
in back when I was an inspector, and hooted as I heard it being pawned
off as a quality control procedure. It ain't! (but it helps)
--
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the
government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson
On Mar 25, 9:59=A0am, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 3/24/2012 11:30 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 19:14:25 -0500, Swingman<[email protected]> =A0wrote:
>
> >> In case you missed this bit of fact and not "opinion":
>
> https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopJustStuff...
>
>
>
> >> This stuff was marketed by a Chinese manufacturer selling "cabinet
> >> furniture" for the global market, and not made to an American company'=
s
> >> specs.
>
> >> But what do you wanna bet it was a direct copy/ripoff, eh?
>
> > You do realize how funny that is don't you? =A0Probably copied the
> > design from a cheap ass US company importing cheap crap made to their
> > specs.
>
> Nothing funny about it ... it is, in fact, outright theft, with no
> recourse for the victims. The Chinese government makes damn sure of that.
>
> > Many years ago, a company in New Jersey copied exactly a competitor's
> > product. =A0We shipped the component they asked us to make, exactly as
> > asked. =A0Turned out, they copied a poor design and they had failures
> > and found the competitor made modifications for the next year.
>
> The point, Ed, is that China can manufacture "cheaply" because, using
> cheap unskilled labor (and given the opportunity to so without
> supervision), all regard for quality goes out the window.
>
> Just like those caster wheels of mine above.
>
> There is a big difference between "cheap" and "inexpensive", and the
> Chinese are masters of the art of making the naive believe they are
> synonymous.
>
> It boils down to an unequivocal maxim: "Cheap, unskilled labor must be
> supervised at all times".
>
> The Chinese operate exactly like many of our workers in the construction
> industry do in the US ... as long as you're there to supervise them you
> can get _adequate_ quality out of their effort; as soon as you leave
> them to their own inclination to get a job done, you stand a better than
> even chance of getting crap, just like my caster wheels.
>
> This is a generalization to some extenet, sure ... but one that you can
> take to the bank as far as statistical, business bottom line odds go.
>
> A good case in point, proffered, once again, to take it out of the realm
> of just my "opinion":
>
> http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2011/06/29/why-we-left-our-factories-i...
>
> Once again, some good products come out of China (I appreciate my iPad),
> but arguably ONLY because of a rigid supervision program. It is NOT the
> Chinese worker, or their masters, who are making that happen because of
> an inherent quest for "quality". More companies, and now consumers, are
> realizing that it takes more effort then its worth simply because of the
> maxim regarding supervision above.
>
> In short, increasingly when left to it own devices, China produces
> mostly _cheap_ crap ... end of story.
>
> --www.eWoodShop.com
> Last update: 4/15/2010
> KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
I have read, but I'm not certain, that much of the castings used in
Powermatic and other upper end machine tools come out of China, to be
assembled over here. Maybe some of you know more about that.
About 6-7 years ago I bought a Powermatic 6" long bed jointer and the
offshore casting and machining rumor was prevalent then. Whether
parts were imported or not, it is a very nice machine. However, as I
posted here at the time, the manual that came with the tool was a BIG
disappointment. I started assembling the tool and immediately came up
with discrepancies. Then I started digging in past the operating
instructions and found several stupid errors including some procedures
and illustrations regarding my machine that clearly applied to their
8" jointer.
I sent an email with my concerns to their product support folks and
got a quick response. Their manuals go though exhaustive review and
they are correct. So I called their support folks and got the same
response. While I had them on the phone I gave them specific page,
paragraph and illustration references and the representative
maintained her "our publications are correct" attitude, clearly
implying I didn't know how to read them. Even when I explained I had
quite a few years experience with technical pubs and writing she stood
firm. About a week later I got a call from one of the support
supervisors. The intent was to apologize and thank me for pointing
out some embarrassing errors in their publication. He admitted that
my jointer shipped after a very recent update and "translation" of
their manuals and they found similar errors in other manuals as well.
A day or so later I received an email to the same effect.
Surprisingly, when I posted this concern to this group I caught a load
of buckshot from some readers. These folks didn't think I should be
judging the quality of an excellent machine by sloppy technical
publications. I guess I am jaundiced by 40 or so years of aerospace
engineering, configuration management, publications and business
development experience; but in my opinion if you cannot trust a
companies technical data you should be suspicious.
RonB
On 3/24/2012 11:22 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> I won't mention Pink Slime again because you evidently see that as a
> non-issue with the US food supply.
An assumption on your part that is incorrect.
> Would you feel that way if the
> Chinese used it in food shipped here?
What way are you assuming I feel?
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 19:14:25 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>In case you missed this bit of fact and not "opinion":
>
>https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopJustStuff#5723587662054187346
>
>This stuff was marketed by a Chinese manufacturer selling "cabinet
>furniture" for the global market, and not made to an American company's
>specs.
>
>But what do you wanna bet it was a direct copy/ripoff, eh?
You do realize how funny that is don't you? Probably copied the
design from a cheap ass US company importing cheap crap made to their
specs.
Many years ago, a company in New Jersey copied exactly a competitor's
product. We shipped the component they asked us to make, exactly as
asked. Turned out, they copied a poor design and they had failures
and found the competitor made modifications for the next year.
On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 18:53:35 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Did you just miss the link I posted taking it clearly taking it out of
>the realm of my _opinion_, or just ignore that, as Ed did?
I did not ignore it. Not everything from China is crap. Some is, some
it not.
>
>An Ed did what by repeating the same thing over and over, in slightly
>different ways, in the hopes that his obvious "opinion", with nothing
>cited to back it up, would somehow become more relevant?
My opinion is backed up with my personal experiences.
>
>A bit of _obvious_ tit for tat, to make a point is always in order ...
>but does indeed go over some heads.
>
> > Yes, it's an opinion shared by many others. But Ed's
> > opinion fits a lot better with my experience.
>
>And exactly how does that differ with:
>
>"Sure there are few things that are done well, but that does NOT excuse
>the absolute factual evidence that the state of Chinese products is
>deplorable, even for use in China itself."
>
>Which is not, as you indicate, "opinion".
>
>Here's that cite again:
>
>http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/reference/timestopics/subjects/c/consumer_product_safety/china/index.html
>
It tells a lot of stories of contaminated products from China. Yes,
there are many. There are still a lot happening in this country too.
Of course, it is wrong no matter where it comes from and it may be
worse from other countries. Even reputable companies like Johnson &
Johnson have had their plants shut down in recent months. Tons on
contaminated beef seems to come to light in the US every year too.
I won't mention Pink Slime again because you evidently see that as a
non-issue with the US food supply. Would you feel that way if the
Chinese used it in food shipped here?
Ah yes, I have the same issue with the cultural differences with India.
I have been displaced many times, They have no problem breaking our
laws. My boss (Indian) asked me to commit 2 felonies. My co workers (all
Indian) thought it very unusual for me to refuse. They said I'd be gone
before anyone knew. So why not...
Ah to be a foreigner in your own country. God I love how screwed up we
are now.
On 3/25/2012 1:42 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 3/25/2012 10:51 AM, RonB wrote:
>
>> firm. About a week later I got a call from one of the support
>> supervisors. The intent was to apologize and thank me for pointing
>> out some embarrassing errors in their publication. He admitted that
>> my jointer shipped after a very recent update and "translation" of
>> their manuals and they found similar errors in other manuals as well.
>> A day or so later I received an email to the same effect.
>
> This goes straight to another "translation" issue regarding our food
> supply that is of major concern, specifically regarding using the
> "organic certification" process for food imported from China.
>
> Apparently, and at least at one point and according a recent on air NPR
> interview, the required process itself was never translated into
> Mandarin, or any of the myriad other languages where the food is grown.
> Consequently the process was basically, and conveniently ignored by the
> Chinese, who ingeniously decided, along with complicit third party
> inspectors, that simply affixing the U.S.D.A. organic label was
> sufficient to make it so.
>
> While that may no longer be the case, it certainly casts doubt on the
> wisdom of relinquishing control of your food supply without first making
> a point of understanding inherent cultural differences regarding what we
> think of as morality, honesty and integrity.
>
On 3/24/2012 11:30 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 19:14:25 -0500, Swingman<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>> In case you missed this bit of fact and not "opinion":
>>
https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopJustStuff#5723587662054187346
>>
>> This stuff was marketed by a Chinese manufacturer selling "cabinet
>> furniture" for the global market, and not made to an American company's
>> specs.
>>
>> But what do you wanna bet it was a direct copy/ripoff, eh?
>
> You do realize how funny that is don't you? Probably copied the
> design from a cheap ass US company importing cheap crap made to their
> specs.
Nothing funny about it ... it is, in fact, outright theft, with no
recourse for the victims. The Chinese government makes damn sure of that.
> Many years ago, a company in New Jersey copied exactly a competitor's
> product. We shipped the component they asked us to make, exactly as
> asked. Turned out, they copied a poor design and they had failures
> and found the competitor made modifications for the next year.
The point, Ed, is that China can manufacture "cheaply" because, using
cheap unskilled labor (and given the opportunity to so without
supervision), all regard for quality goes out the window.
Just like those caster wheels of mine above.
There is a big difference between "cheap" and "inexpensive", and the
Chinese are masters of the art of making the naive believe they are
synonymous.
It boils down to an unequivocal maxim: "Cheap, unskilled labor must be
supervised at all times".
The Chinese operate exactly like many of our workers in the construction
industry do in the US ... as long as you're there to supervise them you
can get _adequate_ quality out of their effort; as soon as you leave
them to their own inclination to get a job done, you stand a better than
even chance of getting crap, just like my caster wheels.
This is a generalization to some extenet, sure ... but one that you can
take to the bank as far as statistical, business bottom line odds go.
A good case in point, proffered, once again, to take it out of the realm
of just my "opinion":
http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2011/06/29/why-we-left-our-factories-in-china/
Once again, some good products come out of China (I appreciate my iPad),
but arguably ONLY because of a rigid supervision program. It is NOT the
Chinese worker, or their masters, who are making that happen because of
an inherent quest for "quality". More companies, and now consumers, are
realizing that it takes more effort then its worth simply because of the
maxim regarding supervision above.
In short, increasingly when left to it own devices, China produces
mostly _cheap_ crap ... end of story.
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
On 3/22/2012 4:12 PM, Max wrote:
> Questions have been posed by the previous input:
> 1. Is a Grizzly (foreign made) better than a Powermatic or Unisaw?
> 2. What features do others consider most important? (never mind the
> fence, it can be purchased separately if necessary)
> I don't dismiss anyone's suggestions.
>
> Max
My shop:
https://picasaweb.google.com/113599637741234218424/ShopAkaDoghouse?authkey=Gv1sRgCOWPv5Hh9YPF4wE#
or:
http://tinyurl.com/3syznz8
Max
"Max" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> Your input is appreciated and I have "googled" the issue.
> There are several individuals posting here (and abpw) whose expertise
> seems obvious (to me at least).
> I subscribe to: Fine Woodworking, Woodcraft, Wood, Woodworker's
> Journal, and American Woodworker and enjoy each magazine.
> I am persuaded, however, that most of the reviews presented by those
> publications are somewhat biased toward advertisers (and in some
> cases, toward their sponsors like Woodcraft and Rockler)
> Having become reasonably familiar with the type of work in which some
> of the members of the rec.ww engage, I have come to rely on their
> judgment more than that of the magazines.
> By considering my question and the individual who might respond, I
> believe I can have more information upon which to make a decision
> regarding a particular purchase.
> To me, in the above regard, there is never too much information.
>
> And a 10" Cabinet Saw is a 10" Cabinet Saw no matter the *size* of the
> shop in which it is serving.
> So it seems to me that any 10" Cabinet Saw short of an industrial
> model should be under consideration.
> That sort of rules out the Altendorf, SCM, etc.
> Having narrowed it down to that, I was seeking input.
> Prior to the discussion I would have completely ruled out a Grizzly
> but........now..........
> The saw I have now is a Delta 10" Tilting Arbor saw; a hybrid. It has
> served me well but does have some shortcomings, chiefly among which is
> the dust collection.
> My son wants it. I'm not opposed to letting him have it.
>
> Questions have been posed by the previous input:
> 1. Is a Grizzly (foreign made) better than a Powermatic or Unisaw?
> 2. What features do others consider most important? (never mind the
> fence, it can be purchased separately if necessary)
> I don't dismiss anyone's suggestions.
>
> Max
On my Ridgid, the power switch mounts to the fence rail. This is rather
inconvenient when I'm making a cut and have to shut the saw off in the
middle of it. A switch that mounts on the body with a wide paddle for a
knee kick would be nice to have. (There's probably an aftermarket option
to add just that.)
I haven't been happy with most blade guards and splitters. The ones I've
made extensive use of mount far behind the blade and are thus subject to
free play that can put undesired pressure on the board. Newer saws have
riving knives mounted directly behind the blade (so they'll move up and
down with it) and that seems to be a much better solution.
These are two of the things that came up last night as I was sawing.
Some of the wood wanted to close up on the blade, and one did so so much
that I had to shut the saw off and back it out of the cut. The
splitter/riving knife would have prevented the closing of the kerf, while
being able to access the switch easily would have made shutting the saw
off much less risky.
Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.
On 3/23/2012 10:54 AM, RonB wrote:
> On Mar 22, 5:12 pm, "Max"<[email protected]> wrote:
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>> Questions have been posed by the previous input:
>> 1. Is a Grizzly (foreign made) better than a Powermatic or Unisaw?
>> 2. What features do others consider most important? (never mind the fence,
>> it can be purchased separately if necessary)
>> I don't dismiss anyone's suggestions.
>>
>> Max
>
> I'll frame this it the time frame when I bought my Grizzly G1023S:
> At the end of the day, folks who try to rank Grizzly in a category
> with Harbor Freight are uninformed. No comparison. And no, I am not
> a Grizzly-only shop. My cabinet saw and planer are sitting among
> Powermatic, Jet, Delta and other machine tools. The Grizzly machines
> are in the same class as all of them.
>
> So There! :O)
>
> RonB
After seeing several recommendations by those with Grizzly experience I
would agree that they deserve consideration.
I looked at the 690. It seems to be a worthy candidate but I noticed
that it didn't have a "blade shroud"; a feature that several other
manufacturers have adopted. Since dust control is a major item on my
"want" list I hesitate on buying a Grizzly.
Your input is greatly appreciated.
Max
"RonB" wrote
>
> At the end of the day, folks who try to rank Grizzly in a category
> with Harbor Freight are uninformed. No comparison. And no, I am not
> a Grizzly-only shop. My cabinet saw and planer are sitting among
> Powermatic, Jet, Delta and other machine tools. The Grizzly machines
> are in the same class as all of them.
>
> So There! :O)
You tell'em Ron!
All this talk about Grizzly. I guess I will have to chime in. I live 90
minutes away from the Grizzly headquarters and know a bunch of people in
that area. They were the ones who told me about them. Before I ever got a
catalog or bought anything from them, I saw the green tools in many shops.
And there were working shops, building houses, furniture, musical
instruments, etc. The number one message I got from all of them was "bang
for the buck". The tools were a good value. And far less expensive than
many other, more prestigious names.
I set up a shop with Grizzly tools over 25 years ago. Good price on
everything. I did have to do some work to align the table saw. But the
walked me through it on the phone and sent me complete instructions. Every
thing else was fine out of the box. Since that time I have bought many more
of the tools. Some for me and many for other people. Both for woodworking
and metalworking. I bought several of their drill presses.
Having had this experience, I will say this about Grizzly.
1. Yes, at one time there was some tweaking required. Over the years,
their quality has greatly improved. But to this day, I find some tweaking
necessary (or desirable) on almost anything.
2. One thing that greatly impresses me about Grizzly is that they are
incredibly responsive to their customers. I remember talking to some of the
guys who bought their early table saws and how they told the folks at
Grizzly what they wanted to see on the saw. Grizzly went to work and
designed new saws. Something they do to this day. If they get enough
requests for a certain size and cost of a tool, they will manufacture it.
How many companies can you name that will do that for you?
3. They have an incredible number of models of many of their tools. Many
of their tools are designed for commercial use. That means if you are a
hobbyist, you can buy a serious machine at a reasonable cost. If you are a
businessman, you can buy something that will do the job without mortgaging
the tools. And it gives you a Choice!! Even if I can't afford it, I like
the idea of actually having a choice of the tool I want. Many suppliers
have one or two models. Grizzly has many models of many tools.
4. One of the old timer tricks that the guys in those shops taught me was
to first figure out what you wanted. Then figure out what you could afford.
Then buy the next one up the list from there. By going to a tool just a
little better, bigger, etc than what you figure you needed, you would end up
getting something that will take care of you well into the future.
5. I know I mentioned this before, but there are some serious bargains in
the scratch and dent department. I bought several tools from there are good
prices.
I have not bought any tools from them for awhile. And mostly I have helped
other people buy tools form them recently. I am impressed that they are
constantly increasing the number and variety of tools. They may not have
the prestige and status of other tool brands. But they offer a good
selection, excellent support, good value, a massive website and ugly green
paint too. Again, I learned bout Grizzly from people who made their living
from these tools. I can't think of a better referral than that.
"Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> So, excluding the SawStop, which isn't anywhere on any of my lists, what
> might be considered the "Gold Standard" now in a cabinet saw?
Probably the Powermatic... That said, I find that my Jet XActa cabinet saw
is perfectly fine. Note, though, that I added a Biesemeyer T-Splitter to the
saw... The newer version with a riving knife is a better rig.
John
On Mar 21, 1:53=A0pm, Steve Turner <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On 3/21/2012 10:50 AM, Max wrote:
>
> > So, excluding the SawStop, which isn't anywhere on any of my lists, wha=
t might
> > be considered the "Gold Standard" now in a cabinet saw?
>
> In the absence of the ubiquitous old Unisaw and PM66 that put both Delta =
and
> Powermatic on the map, the field is certainly narrowed. =A0I personally w=
ouldn't
> consider buying either of the products they developed as replacements. =
=A0This
> would seem to leave only the Jet Xacta saw as the sole product that looks
> anything like the "legacy" tablesaws that we once considered "gold standa=
rds".
> =A0 However, people always seem to forget about General:
>
> http://www.general.ca/site_general/g_produits/saw/350R_650R.html
>
> I just wonder how long General can continue offering their top of the lin=
e
> "Made in Canada" machines before they succumb to the same pressures as De=
lta
> and Powermatic.
>
> If I was in the market for a reasonably priced 10" cabinet saw, I certain=
ly
> wouldn't have any qualms about considering Grizzly:
>
> http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-Heavy-Duty-Cabinet-Table-Saw-With-...h=
ttp://www.grizzly.com/products/10-3HP-220V-Cabinet-Table-Saw-with-Lo...
>
> If anybody here owns either of those machines, I'd certainly like to hear=
some
> reviews. =A0Both machines have riving knives (as does the General), and t=
hat
> would be a requirement at the very top of my list.
>
> --
> Free bad advice available here.
> To reply, eat the taco.http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
Steve: I own a G1023S which is an older cousin of:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-3-HP-220V-Cabinet-Left-Tilting-Table-Saw=
/G1023RL
http://www.grizzly.com/catalog/2012/Main/17
This machine is probably most similar to the G0651 you linked but not
quite the same. Mine looks pretty much identical to the G1023RL
(above links) except it is right tilt instead of left so overall
appearance is opposite. There also appears to be minor differences in
the cranks and switch but my saw is about 11 or 12 years old. One
thing I did notice is the 1023RL has a dedicated dust collection
enclosure around the blade; and now they are equipped with riving
knife. Both of these are real improvements. For a home shop mine has
had pretty serious use. In addition to hobby cabinets, rocking
horses, etc; we finished a basement in a previous home and built and
finished a new home since it was purchased. It is still as solid as a
rock. It looks like they are still installing the same Shop Fox
Classic fence which is a very nice and heavy duty fence.
I believe Grizzly still has a buyer referral service. If you call
them and tell then which tool you are interested in, they will put you
in contact with someone in your area who has purchased one. I used it
and the buyer had actually purchased two - one for himself and one for
his son-in law. The wood pattern shop of my old aerospace employer
also has several Grizzly machine tools. I would definitely recommend
the saw.
RonB
On Mar 23, 9:50=A0am, Pat Barber <[email protected]> wrote:
> Remember, the Unisaw was designed in 1938. Do you have anything you
> own that was designed and built in 1939 and still works ?
We have a few corn shellers around the farm that were likely made/
designed in the 1930s or before. They are rusted and dented but still
work the same as the day they were made many decades ago. Put an ear
of corn in the chute and the cob and kernels will come out the lower
end when you turn the crank and get the flywheel turning. I'd say the
complication of the design and manufacturing is comparable between a
manual corn sheller and a Unisaw.
On 3/21/2012 9:23 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 3/21/2012 7:44 AM, Leon wrote:
>
>> I fear that Delta may one day become what Rockwell has become, a reused
>> well known brand name.
>
> One day? That shit hit the fan about five years ago.
I was thinking that perhaps one day Delta will not even build their
equipment rather have everything built.
But I totally agree.
>
> It's the same old story that has been ongoing with the major oil
> companies since the late 80's ... instead of using experienced
> scientists, the MBA's hire young know nothings because they can pay them
> less in all aspects, and just rely on acquisition to replace reserves.
>
> These tool MBA's are betting they can acquire a respected brand name to
> fool the stupid consumer.
>
> That is what they think of you ...
>
> As much as I despise the lawyer Gass, I'd spring for his saw before I'd
> ever buy another Delta product, "Made(with Chinese parts) in USA, or not.
>
> Fuck'em.
>
> [snip]=A0From what I understand, Black and Decker, the precious [previous=
?] owner was
> instrumental in the concept of the New Unisaw design, which is more than
> a few years old now. ....
B&D engineers and designers were developing a new, wide range of Delta
products - the new Unisaw among them.
B&D and Stanley merged with Stanley taking control of both
organizations. It was then that they sold off their Delta line, and
all the projects and products under development became dead in the
water. Delta had not only come out with a new Unisaw model, but also
an 18" drill press designed specifically for woodworking that seems to
still be available (at least) through Amazon. (I see that the Unisaw
is also available through Amazon, but I don't know about the quality
since the acquisition.)
No argument there. It's why the old bailey corrugated planes are so
beloved. No hydraulic lock. I wax my top often.
Same with the jointer.
It was a cool gee whiz thing..
On 3/21/2012 2:43 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 3/21/2012 12:40 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
>> I would also say excluding the Saw Stop, that the older 66 sets the
>> standard. The polished table alone showed quality. The left tilt was
>> nice. the wheels were good.
>
>
> Oddly I never saw the mirror top on the PM an advantage. It is cool gee
> whiz but my experience is that the more coarse the grind on the top the
> less friction.
>
> For a couple of examples, My old cast iron Craftsman top was crude by
> any polishing standards yet with a layer of TopCote on it and my Jet
> cabinet saw with smoooth top the Craftsman had FAR FAR less friction.
> I could toss a small scrap to the top of the Craftsman and it would
> slide off the top, not even close on the Jet.
>
> Minimax uses a coarse finish on their saw top for the same reason and I
> confirmed that several years ago when visiting their show room in Austin.
>
> Click on one of the pictures and you can see the grind
>
> http://minimax-usa.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage_bs.tpl&product_id=43&category_id=2&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=35
>
>
On 3/21/2012 7:44 AM, Leon wrote:
> I fear that Delta may one day become what Rockwell has become, a reused
> well known brand name.
One day? That shit hit the fan about five years ago.
It's the same old story that has been ongoing with the major oil
companies since the late 80's ... instead of using experienced
scientists, the MBA's hire young know nothings because they can pay them
less in all aspects, and just rely on acquisition to replace reserves.
These tool MBA's are betting they can acquire a respected brand name to
fool the stupid consumer.
That is what they think of you ...
As much as I despise the lawyer Gass, I'd spring for his saw before I'd
ever buy another Delta product, "Made(with Chinese parts) in USA, or not.
Fuck'em.
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> [...snip...]
> >If I was in the market for a reasonably priced 10" cabinet saw, I certainly
> >wouldn't have any qualms about considering Grizzly:
> >
> >http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-Heavy-Duty-Cabinet-Table-Saw-With-Riving-Knife/G0651
> >http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-3HP-220V-Cabinet-Table-Saw-with-Long-Rails-Riving-Knife/G0691
> >
> >If anybody here owns either of those machines, I'd certainly like to hear some
> >reviews. Both machines have riving knives (as does the General), and that
> >would be a requirement at the very top of my list.
>
> I don't own either, but there's been a lot of chatter on Lumberjocks
> and other forums about these and other saws, so do a google search.
> Generally the chatter has been very favorable for the Grizzly saws,
> but the same can be said for most any real cabinet saw.
>
> I don't get exactly why the G0651 is $2125 and the G0691 is $1425. The
> shipping weight on the G091 is more than the G0651, so I doubt the
> price difference is heavier trunnions or anything like that.
>
> The riving knife on the G0651 has a quick release feature, the G0691
> requires more fiddling to get it on/off.
Look at the catalog pages and you get more description and a somewhat
different story. According to the catalog pages the G0651 shipping
weight is 711 pounds vs 514 for the G0691.
Other differences. Looking at the pictures, the fences are clearly
different. Whether the difference is purely cosmetic or whether it has
a real effect on function I have no idea. The G0651 comes with two
extension tables, vs 1 for the 691, and the ones for the 651 look more
durable, with spreaders for the legs and a shelf underneath; the 651 has
a digital readout for bevel angle, and, most telling, there's an option
for a 5 HP 3-phase motor, which implies that it's designed to handle
same.
Oh, and the 651 is made in Taiwan--whether that means anything in terms
of quality I don't know but at least you can be sure it wasn't made by
slave labor.
In article <cfd74a9c-f01b-44fc-bdde-
[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
> > If the "specifications" were narrowed down to that level (hobbyist), what would be the
> > "Table Saw of Choice"?
>
> Well, I don't think there can be one tablesaw of choice. People's
> hobbies are different, their shops are different, probably several
> other factors which would dictate what saw is best for a particular
> individual. That's why it's good to discuss the various options and
> let the individual select which is best or most appropriate for him or
> her.
>
> The different woodworking magazines/websites and other similar media
> have, also, done these comparisons and reviews (for us?... to, at
> least, reference), within the parameters they choose as important and/
> or significent, and list the results of their reviews and
> evaluations. I would think their methodology is fairly dependable,
> too.
When one says "hobbyist" the question arises "hobbyist doing what" and
"with what budget". If Bill Gates decided to take up woodworking as a
hobby he could just buy Delta. Not tools from Delta, the whole company.
I would also say excluding the Saw Stop, that the older 66 sets the
standard. The polished table alone showed quality. The left tilt was
nice. the wheels were good.
My feeling is Saw Stop is now the number one quality saw. Whether you
like the (technology or the man) or not, the saw itself is quality.
On 3/21/2012 12:33 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 3/21/2012 10:59 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>>
>> "Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>> So, excluding the SawStop, which isn't anywhere on any of my lists,
>>> what might be considered the "Gold Standard" now in a cabinet saw?
>>
>> Probably the Powermatic... That said, I find that my Jet XActa cabinet
>> saw is perfectly fine. Note, though, that I added a Biesemeyer
>> T-Splitter to the saw... The newer version with a riving knife is a
>> better rig.
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>
> I am not so sure Powermatic sets any standards since the 2000 was
> introduced, IIRC it is made in Taiwan. I would go for their older out of
> production Model 66. While Amazon still shows the 66 still available
> Powermatic no longer shows it on their site.
>
> I have the Jet Exacta JTAS cabinet saw also and am perfectly happy with it.
"Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 3/21/2012 12:40 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
>> I would also say excluding the Saw Stop, that the older 66 sets the
>> standard. The polished table alone showed quality. The left tilt was
>> nice. the wheels were good.
>
>
> Oddly I never saw the mirror top on the PM an advantage. It is cool gee
> whiz but my experience is that the more coarse the grind on the top the
> less friction.
>
> For a couple of examples, My old cast iron Craftsman top was crude by any
> polishing standards yet with a layer of TopCote on it and my Jet cabinet
> saw with smoooth top the Craftsman had FAR FAR less friction.
> I could toss a small scrap to the top of the Craftsman and it would slide
> off the top, not even close on the Jet.
My Jet seems better as it gets older... all the little surface scratches
that have accumulated, along with a well established coat of wax lets sheet
goods glide over it. I don't really notice any difference with "boards" as
the surface area isn't all that big.
I have the same issue with my DJ-20 Jointer... It's very smooth and has a
lot of friction when I face joint. If I don't keep it well waxed it's a
chore to feed boards through it... When I first had issues I thought it was
just dull but after a good waxing performance was restored.
A problem with the question that starts this thread is it doesn't say for
what purpose. If I were running sheet goods all day my answer would be much
different from my initial answer...
John
On 3/21/2012 1:33 PM, Robatoy wrote:
> That's easy. General 650R. Or 350R if you want right-tilt. I would
> take the General over the Powermatic if it was available.
> YOUR mileage may vary.
Mine mileage would not ... agree 110% about the General 650.
That would be my choice of table saw were I in the market today, hands down.
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
Please tell me the Timber Wolf band saw blades is not being produced by
them, just distributed.
I really like the Timber Wolf blades. The Olsons' just never lived up
to the quality that the Timber Wolfs had.
Glad to see they are making UNISAWS in the US.. Too bad it had to be a
foreign company.
On 3/21/2012 8:04 AM, Leon wrote:
> For what ever reason, Delta is not what it used to be, not even compared
> to two years ago.
>
> Bought and sold again one year ago and is now owned by Chang Type
> Industrial Co. Delta completely moved its facility, hired new staff, and
> retooled. Their goal last year was to build 300 Unisaws 6 months after
> being sold and moved. This might explain why parts were hard to come by
> last year and why you seldom see a new Unisaw, that is an average of one
> new Unisaw per state per month.
>
> Delta is not a giant any more.
> The new U.S. office headquarters and manufacturing facility in Anderson
> NC is only 56,000 sq feet. The offices will take up 6,000 sq feet. The
> fabrication and manufacturing takes place in a building that that would
> fit on a 200'x 250' rectangle.
>
>
> The good news is that the Unisaw is being built in the US and those
> machines that were being built in the old facility will be built in the
> new facility.
>
>
> http://www.woodworkersjournal.com/Ezine/Articles/Delta_to_Become_Independent_Company_Once_Again_8244.aspx
>
>
> http://www.woodworkersjournal.com/Ezine/Articles/New_Delta_Celebrates_Anniversary_Announces_Tools_9008.aspx
>
On 3/21/2012 12:40 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
> I would also say excluding the Saw Stop, that the older 66 sets the
> standard. The polished table alone showed quality. The left tilt was
> nice. the wheels were good.
Oddly I never saw the mirror top on the PM an advantage. It is cool gee
whiz but my experience is that the more coarse the grind on the top the
less friction.
For a couple of examples, My old cast iron Craftsman top was crude by
any polishing standards yet with a layer of TopCote on it and my Jet
cabinet saw with smoooth top the Craftsman had FAR FAR less friction.
I could toss a small scrap to the top of the Craftsman and it would
slide off the top, not even close on the Jet.
Minimax uses a coarse finish on their saw top for the same reason and I
confirmed that several years ago when visiting their show room in Austin.
Click on one of the pictures and you can see the grind
http://minimax-usa.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage_bs.tpl&product_id=43&category_id=2&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=35
Not until the past few years have I paid much attention to everyone's
threads/discussions about the quality of the different cabinet saws,
as compared to past models and/or brands. I'm not in the market for
another one, but have wondered if my Unisaws are of the original
higher quality, as compared to subsequent "retooled" models.
I have a model 34-807 (made in 1992) and a model 34-761 (made in
1981). I would like to think they were made during the time the
quality was at their maximum. I don't recall ever looking to see if
there's a Made in USA tag on them. These have served me well and I
suspect they will last until I can no longer do woodwork.... 20 more
years of hobby work?
Sonny
On 3/23/2012 12:46 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> Not that any of my machines (Grizzlies included) have needed any
>> significant amount of "tweaking", but I'm a tweaker by nature (blush),
>> so if it ain't perfect I wanna fix it, and my Unisaw and Minimax bandsaw
>> have received just as much "tweaking" as any of my Grizzly machines.
>>
>
>
> We are talking thousandths of an inch for most of these tweaking
> adjustments.
> I wonder if even those $15,000+ industrial sliding tables saws don't
> need tweaked to perfection after getting jittered around in the back of
> a truck for a thousand miles.
>
> Think about the road (&boat) trip taken by most of the woodworking saws
> we're talking about in this thread. They may be set-up perfectly at the
> factory, but by the time they take all the boat and truck trips and are
> loaded and unloaded on and off docks and trucks and forklifts and
> pallets and pick-up trucks and finally (probably the most culpable stage
> in getting to your shop) getting taken off the truck in your driveway
> and making it into its final resting spot, by whatever means
> necessary..... I'd be very surprised if any saw didn't get whacked out
> of adjustment by at least several thousandths of an inch.
>
>
I can't fault a machine for the need to be tweaked, initially. But
after that a good one should not need to be readjusted for a very long
time. I recently moved my shop, thanks again Swingman, I did not have
to retweak anything. The problem with band saws is that there are
sooooo many adjustments to be made initially. Better band saws hold
those adjustments. Some have to be fiddled with almost every time you
use one.
On 3/23/2012 7:46 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 05:57:42 -0400, Ed Pawlowski<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 22 Mar 2012 20:07:39 -0700, Doug Winterburn
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Not sure where the "tweaking" evaluation comes from, but the Griz
>>> equipment I have required none - G0555 bandsaw, GO505 12.5" planer and
>>> GO452 6" jointer. I did have to "tweak" a little when I installed the
>>> riser kit on the bandsaw, but only about an hour or two including the
>>> install.
>>>
>>> It is certainly no more "tweaking" and possibly less than some of the
>>> other equipment I have.
>>
>> It comes from reading this group for a number of years. I see more
>> people having to do little things on Grizzly more often than other
>> brands. Not that the others are perfect.
>
> That's because they read all the tips about Griz here and all want to
> make the saw even better. If tips abounded for the Unisaw, these
> folks would tweak those to death, too. My Grizzes (bandsaw, planer,
> DC, trim router) needed no extra tweaking, though I did install link
> belts on the bandsaw about 6 mos later, and it's smoother now.
>
> What I do see is that all machines need about the same amount of
> tweaking, no matter what their original cost. The pricier ones may
> have been through a couple extra use tests, so the small amount of
> deburring which happens during setup has already been performed, so it
> feels smoother to the new owner the first time it's used.
Not that any of my machines (Grizzlies included) have needed any significant
amount of "tweaking", but I'm a tweaker by nature (blush), so if it ain't
perfect I wanna fix it, and my Unisaw and Minimax bandsaw have received just as
much "tweaking" as any of my Grizzly machines.
--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
On 3/23/12 11:07 AM, Steve Turner wrote:
> On 3/23/2012 7:46 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 05:57:42 -0400, Ed Pawlowski<[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 22 Mar 2012 20:07:39 -0700, Doug Winterburn
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Not sure where the "tweaking" evaluation comes from, but the Griz
>>>> equipment I have required none - G0555 bandsaw, GO505 12.5" planer and
>>>> GO452 6" jointer. I did have to "tweak" a little when I installed the
>>>> riser kit on the bandsaw, but only about an hour or two including the
>>>> install.
>>>>
>>>> It is certainly no more "tweaking" and possibly less than some of the
>>>> other equipment I have.
>>>
>>> It comes from reading this group for a number of years. I see more
>>> people having to do little things on Grizzly more often than other
>>> brands. Not that the others are perfect.
>>
>> That's because they read all the tips about Griz here and all want to
>> make the saw even better. If tips abounded for the Unisaw, these
>> folks would tweak those to death, too. My Grizzes (bandsaw, planer,
>> DC, trim router) needed no extra tweaking, though I did install link
>> belts on the bandsaw about 6 mos later, and it's smoother now.
>>
>> What I do see is that all machines need about the same amount of
>> tweaking, no matter what their original cost. The pricier ones may
>> have been through a couple extra use tests, so the small amount of
>> deburring which happens during setup has already been performed, so it
>> feels smoother to the new owner the first time it's used.
>
> Not that any of my machines (Grizzlies included) have needed any
> significant amount of "tweaking", but I'm a tweaker by nature (blush),
> so if it ain't perfect I wanna fix it, and my Unisaw and Minimax bandsaw
> have received just as much "tweaking" as any of my Grizzly machines.
>
We are talking thousandths of an inch for most of these tweaking
adjustments.
I wonder if even those $15,000+ industrial sliding tables saws don't
need tweaked to perfection after getting jittered around in the back of
a truck for a thousand miles.
Think about the road (&boat) trip taken by most of the woodworking saws
we're talking about in this thread. They may be set-up perfectly at the
factory, but by the time they take all the boat and truck trips and are
loaded and unloaded on and off docks and trucks and forklifts and
pallets and pick-up trucks and finally (probably the most culpable stage
in getting to your shop) getting taken off the truck in your driveway
and making it into its final resting spot, by whatever means
necessary..... I'd be very surprised if any saw didn't get whacked out
of adjustment by at least several thousandths of an inch.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 05:57:42 -0400, Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Thu, 22 Mar 2012 20:07:39 -0700, Doug Winterburn
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Not sure where the "tweaking" evaluation comes from, but the Griz
>>equipment I have required none - G0555 bandsaw, GO505 12.5" planer and
>>GO452 6" jointer. I did have to "tweak" a little when I installed the
>>riser kit on the bandsaw, but only about an hour or two including the
>>install.
>>
>>It is certainly no more "tweaking" and possibly less than some of the
>>other equipment I have.
>
>It comes from reading this group for a number of years. I see more
>people having to do little things on Grizzly more often than other
>brands. Not that the others are perfect.
That's because they read all the tips about Griz here and all want to
make the saw even better. If tips abounded for the Unisaw, these
folks would tweak those to death, too. My Grizzes (bandsaw, planer,
DC, trim router) needed no extra tweaking, though I did install link
belts on the bandsaw about 6 mos later, and it's smoother now.
What I do see is that all machines need about the same amount of
tweaking, no matter what their original cost. The pricier ones may
have been through a couple extra use tests, so the small amount of
deburring which happens during setup has already been performed, so it
feels smoother to the new owner the first time it's used.
I choose Griz because they're considerably less expensive while being
as good, or nearly as good, as tools priced twice the price. That's
value. I hear their CS is good, but I've never had the need to call
'em.
I like Makitas, too, and ordered their SP6000K1 plunge saw yesterday.
--
Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens.
-- Jimi Hendrix
On 3/21/2012 2:42 PM, Pat Barber wrote:
> Sorry... I did leave out the General table saws
> and the F-45 http://www.altendorf.de/en/products/f-45.html
>
> The F-45 is a real piece of art.
>
> I was wandering around the IWF in Atlanta one year and as
> I came around a corner my wife was talking to a Altendorf
> rep about what a "pretty" saw they built. I whispered the
> price in her ear just to see the look on her face.
>
> To just play with one will stun you. The sliding table moves with
> one finger.
>
> If you "ever" get a chance to see one....you will be amazed.
>
>
Check out the Laguna panel cutting saws. There is one video where the
owner of the company sits on top of the sliding feed table and it just
glides ever so smoothly out to the end IIRC.
On 3/21/2012 7:26 PM, Bill wrote:
> Pat Barber wrote:
>> "Gold Standard" is a relative term.
>>
>> The Unisaw and PM66 remain the kings of the cabinet shops.
>>
>> I already have my saws but if I were looking I would find myself
>> a older Unisaw or PM66 in any working condition. They both can
>> easily be restored to a "new" status.
>
>
> When I saw the Unisaw at the Woodworkers show, I was a bit disappointed
> that the rail the fence slid along was aluminum (square cross-section).
>
> Is this evidence of cost-cutting? Worth noticing?
>
> Bill
If you bought a Unisaw with a Unifence 20 years ago it came with an
aluminum front rail and fence. Not a cost cutter and may actually be
more expensive than the old tube steel.
On 3/21/2012 4:43 PM, Sonny wrote:
> Not until the past few years have I paid much attention to everyone's
> threads/discussions about the quality of the different cabinet saws,
> as compared to past models and/or brands. I'm not in the market for
> another one, but have wondered if my Unisaws are of the original
> higher quality, as compared to subsequent "retooled" models.
>
> I have a model 34-807 (made in 1992) and a model 34-761 (made in
> 1981). I would like to think they were made during the time the
> quality was at their maximum. I don't recall ever looking to see if
> there's a Made in USA tag on them. These have served me well and I
> suspect they will last until I can no longer do woodwork.... 20 more
> years of hobby work?
>
> Sonny
I would say that you got the better ones.
On 3/21/2012 3:53 PM, Jim Weisgram wrote:
> [...snip...]
>> If I was in the market for a reasonably priced 10" cabinet saw, I certainly
>> wouldn't have any qualms about considering Grizzly:
>>
>> http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-Heavy-Duty-Cabinet-Table-Saw-With-Riving-Knife/G0651
>> http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-3HP-220V-Cabinet-Table-Saw-with-Long-Rails-Riving-Knife/G0691
>>
>> If anybody here owns either of those machines, I'd certainly like to hear some
>> reviews. Both machines have riving knives (as does the General), and that
>> would be a requirement at the very top of my list.
>
> I don't own either, but there's been a lot of chatter on Lumberjocks
> and other forums about these and other saws, so do a google search.
> Generally the chatter has been very favorable for the Grizzly saws,
> but the same can be said for most any real cabinet saw.
>
> I don't get exactly why the G0651 is $2125 and the G0691 is $1425. The
> shipping weight on the G091 is more than the G0651, so I doubt the
> price difference is heavier trunnions or anything like that.
The more expensive green model comes with a substantial out feed table.
And it has a better supported right side table. Take another look.
On Mar 21, 11:50=A0am, "Max" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Lee Michaels" =A0wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
> >"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> >> As much as I despise the lawyer Gass, I'd spring for his saw before I'=
d
> >> ever buy another Delta product, "Made(with Chinese parts) in USA, or n=
ot.
>
> >At least he offers a quality product.
> >There was a time when tools were built by craftsman for craftsman. =A0Yo=
u did
> >not make junk. =A0I may be old school, but I have always appreciated a
> >quality product. =A0Apparently those kinds of things are not covered in =
MBA
> >school.
>
> So, excluding the SawStop, which isn't anywhere on any of my lists, what
> might be considered the "Gold Standard" now in a cabinet saw?
>
> Max
That's easy. General 650R. Or 350R if you want right-tilt. I would
take the General over the Powermatic if it was available.
I have been around a lot of table saws in my career and at a certain
point, you run out of things to do better than the other guy. It then
comes down to size, HP, blade diameter. Aside from the safety aspect,
how much better is the Saw Stop as a saw? Personally, I want to be
able to use the myriad of magnet hold-downs I have instinctively grown
accustomed to using over the decades. From there, I want a sliding
table. SawStop doesn't make a sliding table saw, as far as I know
(haven't looked lately) so in a professional cabinet-building setting,
SawStop wouldn't even be a contender. Altendorf, SCM etc, would be.
A UniSaw/General650R would definitely be a contender, assuming a
proper price point vs features. BUT!!!! That SawStop sure is pretty.
BTW, the General comes with a proper Bies-style fence, although I
always enjoyed using the UniFence.
BUT!!! (Version 2.0) If I HAD to do it all over again, I would shop
for a 4x8 Altendorf or SCM slider, used. I have seen those around
$2-4K because I would not care how old it was as long as it had a
minimum of 3 HP and a scoring blade.
YOUR mileage may vary.
On Thu, 22 Mar 2012 20:39:13 -0600, Max <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Googling "#1 rated table saw" resulted in a bias toward Powermatic
>PM2000. I found a couple reviews that strongly praised the machine.
>Unisaw and General were also highly recommended.
I guess you do get what you pay for then.
>
>I tend to think that a saw that needs "more tweaking" hasn't been
>manufactured to the same quality standard as those that don't.
>Certainly, if price is a high priority and the saw can be made to
>perform satisfactorily then the decision is made.
>But my concern would be that other areas (bearing quality and machining
>to close tolerances) might be neglected as well.
>
>Max
Valid point, of course, but I bet 99.9% of us would not wear out those
bearings in a home hobby use and no one could tell what saw the finish
product came from.
What we don't usually know though, is who supplied the bearings. They
may or may not have come from the same factory. Over the years, I've
seen the same items made on the same line in the same factory, but
with different brand labels and wildly different prices. And the
consumer will swear that Brand X is better than Brand Y.
On Mar 23, 10:44=A0pm, Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 09:54:41 -0700 (PDT), RonB <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >Another poster suggested that Grizzly had 3rd rank quality control.
> >Most of Grizzly's machinery is built wotjin ISO certified quality
> >systems. =A0I went through ISO certification at my previous employer and
> >it isn't something that is just handed to a company. =A0I certainly saw
> >no lack of quality control in my saw, or the new 15" Grizzly planer I
> >bought last year.
>
> ISO does not assure high quality. =A0It assures consistency. =A0If you
> make a high quality product, the next one will be the same as the
> last. =A0If you make a crappy product, the next one will be the same as
> the last.
>
> ISO certification means you have policies and procedures to cover =A0a
> series of situations. =A0Inspections certify that you follow them.
I agree with almost everything said. However a production system that
can produce consistency is usually building quality because it has the
processes and controls to do so. Poor quality often results from
production breaks and inconsistent operations and products.
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 09:54:41 -0700 (PDT), RonB <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>Another poster suggested that Grizzly had 3rd rank quality control.
>Most of Grizzly's machinery is built wotjin ISO certified quality
>systems. I went through ISO certification at my previous employer and
>it isn't something that is just handed to a company. I certainly saw
>no lack of quality control in my saw, or the new 15" Grizzly planer I
>bought last year.
ISO does not assure high quality. It assures consistency. If you
make a high quality product, the next one will be the same as the
last. If you make a crappy product, the next one will be the same as
the last.
ISO certification means you have policies and procedures to cover a
series of situations. Inspections certify that you follow them.
================================================================
True. Being familiar with ISO certification and what it means, I always
thought it amusing when they use that as advertising.
On 3/23/2012 10:44 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> ISO does not assure high quality. It assures consistency. If you
> make a high quality product, the next one will be the same as the
> last. If you make a crappy product, the next one will be the same as
> the last.
>
> ISO certification means you have policies and procedures to cover a
> series of situations. Inspections certify that you follow them.
It is painfully apparent that many product spec's, including ISO, have
never been translated into Mandarin, or any of the myriad of other
languages spoken in China/Pacific rim.
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 09:54:41 -0700 (PDT), RonB <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>Another poster suggested that Grizzly had 3rd rank quality control.
>Most of Grizzly's machinery is built wotjin ISO certified quality
>systems. I went through ISO certification at my previous employer and
>it isn't something that is just handed to a company. I certainly saw
>no lack of quality control in my saw, or the new 15" Grizzly planer I
>bought last year.
ISO does not assure high quality. It assures consistency. If you
make a high quality product, the next one will be the same as the
last. If you make a crappy product, the next one will be the same as
the last.
ISO certification means you have policies and procedures to cover a
series of situations. Inspections certify that you follow them.
On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 09:59:37 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 3/24/2012 11:30 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 19:14:25 -0500, Swingman<[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> In case you missed this bit of fact and not "opinion":
>>>
>
>https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopJustStuff#5723587662054187346
>>>
>>> This stuff was marketed by a Chinese manufacturer selling "cabinet
>>> furniture" for the global market, and not made to an American company's
>>> specs.
>>>
>>> But what do you wanna bet it was a direct copy/ripoff, eh?
>
>>
>> You do realize how funny that is don't you? Probably copied the
>> design from a cheap ass US company importing cheap crap made to their
>> specs.
>
>Nothing funny about it ... it is, in fact, outright theft, with no
>recourse for the victims. The Chinese government makes damn sure of that.
>
>> Many years ago, a company in New Jersey copied exactly a competitor's
>> product. We shipped the component they asked us to make, exactly as
>> asked. Turned out, they copied a poor design and they had failures
>> and found the competitor made modifications for the next year.
>
>The point, Ed, is that China can manufacture "cheaply" because, using
>cheap unskilled labor (and given the opportunity to so without
>supervision), all regard for quality goes out the window.
>
>Just like those caster wheels of mine above.
>
>There is a big difference between "cheap" and "inexpensive", and the
>Chinese are masters of the art of making the naive believe they are
>synonymous.
And what they didn't already know about it, they assimilated from the
rest of the world.
>It boils down to an unequivocal maxim: "Cheap, unskilled labor must be
>supervised at all times".
Absolutely!
>In short, increasingly when left to it own devices, China produces
>mostly _cheap_ crap ... end of story.
That's only the story's first half. The second half is: the rest of
the world (including the USA) when left to its own devices, produces
mostly cheap (despite the price) crap. It's The Corporate Way! We can
thank greedy individuals (and other speaking weasels) for that.
--
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the
government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson
On 3/25/2012 10:59 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 09:18:11 -0500, Swingman<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>>> Would you feel that way if the
>>> Chinese used it in food shipped here?
>>
>> What way are you assuming I feel?
>
>
> How is asking a question an assumption?
Come now, your question clearly assumes I "feel" one way or the other
... although no "feelings" were ever remotely expressed by me regarding
your "pink slime".
Once again, stating in "what way are you assuming I feel?", may actually
get you an answer.
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 09:59:37 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>The point, Ed, is that China can manufacture "cheaply" because, using
>cheap unskilled labor (and given the opportunity to so without
>supervision), all regard for quality goes out the window.
The quality is better than you give credit for in many of the
companies. You left out environmental issues and permits, waste
management and safety.
>
>This is a generalization to some extenet, sure ... but one that you can
>take to the bank as far as statistical, business bottom line odds go.
>
>A good case in point, proffered, once again, to take it out of the realm
>of just my "opinion":
>
>http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2011/06/29/why-we-left-our-factories-in-china/
>
>Once again, some good products come out of China (I appreciate my iPad),
>but arguably ONLY because of a rigid supervision program. It is NOT the
>Chinese worker, or their masters, who are making that happen because of
>an inherent quest for "quality". More companies, and now consumers, are
>realizing that it takes more effort then its worth simply because of the
>maxim regarding supervision above.
>
Hey, that is pretty much what I've been saying. Yes, they make crap,
but they can make good. If the buyers on this end specify crap, that
is what they get.
>In short, increasingly when left to it own devices, China produces
>mostly _cheap_ crap ... end of story.
The story continues . . . and will for decades
On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 09:18:11 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Would you feel that way if the
>> Chinese used it in food shipped here?
>
>What way are you assuming I feel?
How is asking a question an assumption?
> If the "specifications" were narrowed down to that level (hobbyist), what would be the
> "Table Saw of Choice"?
Well, I don't think there can be one tablesaw of choice. People's
hobbies are different, their shops are different, probably several
other factors which would dictate what saw is best for a particular
individual. That's why it's good to discuss the various options and
let the individual select which is best or most appropriate for him or
her.
The different woodworking magazines/websites and other similar media
have, also, done these comparisons and reviews (for us?... to, at
least, reference), within the parameters they choose as important and/
or significent, and list the results of their reviews and
evaluations. I would think their methodology is fairly dependable,
too.
Sonny
On 3/24/2012 2:32 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 13:03:54 -0500, Swingman<[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> "Sure there are few things that are done well, but that does NOT excuse
>> the absolute factual evidence that the state of Chinese products is
>> deplorable, even for use in China itself."
>
> Which is why I never said it should be excused. It should not be. Not
> all products are deplorable.
>> Got the point yet??
>
> No, you haven't.
Ignoring what was said, and then proceeding to prattle on, saying the
exact same thing in as many irrelevant ways as you can think of, is not
in the realm of discussion, and pretty well indicates my point went
right over your head, Ed.
> Meantime, we cook up some Pink Slime and think we are getting a good
> price on our food bill. I save 5¢ a pound at Bargain Mart over the
> big Supermart. Yep, pure American made Pink Slime. Just as good as
> melamine.
Wot? WTF does that have to do with the price of tea in .... <gasp> China? :)
Not to mention that with all your inclusive "we's" and "I's" above, you
may want to consider changing those shopping habits.
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> Meantime, we cook up some Pink Slime and think we are getting a good
> price on our food bill. I save 5½ a pound at Bargain Mart over the
> big Supermart. Yep, pure American made Pink Slime. Just as good as
> melamine.
Umm, no. Melamine is a poison when consumed in the quantities they used.
Also, that finely textured beef, aka pink slime is indeed beef in the sense
it is derived from cows. Moreover, we already consume too much red meat (I
find it yummy too), so some dilution with what is basically filler is
really not that bad. Remember, turkey, chicken and so on gets puffed up
with water and chemicals too. Luckily NOT melamine.
NOTE:
I'm not condoning adding pink slime without explicitly stating on the label
that it is added.
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 10:07:04 -0600, "Max" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>
>"Larry Jaques" wrote
>
>On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 08:01:46 -0600, Max wrote:
>
>>>I see the difference between Grizzly and the better known brands as
>>>being similar to, say a Ford Fusion and a Lincoln MKZ. They both have
>>>essentially the same body, power train, etc. but the MKZ is a bit more
>>>"finessed". I like the Ford Fusion but I bought an MKZ. ;-)
>>
>>>Max (Candy Apple Red)
>
>>Cool, that's the epitome of Male Menopause colors!
>>Happy Midlife Crisis to ya, Maxy. xox
>
>Actually the choice was SWMBOs, although I do occasionally get to drive it.
Did she have your midlife crisis for ya?
>I don't know how old she really is but she has celebrated 39 for quite a
>number of years.
Mom did that for 39 years, too. She gave it up 8 years ago.
>My truck is white.
Whew!
--
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the
government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson
On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 13:03:54 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Sure there are few things that are done well, but that does NOT excuse
>the absolute factual evidence that the state of Chinese products is
>deplorable, even for use in China itself."
Which is why I never said it should be excused. It should not be. Not
all products are deplorable.
>
>"Sure there are few things that are done well, but that does NOT excuse
>the absolute factual evidence that the state of Chinese products is
>deplorable, even for use in China itself."
Which is why I never said it should be excused. It should not be. Not
all products are deplorable.
>
>> I just ordered a new coffee maker, made in the Netherlands for $300.
>> Perhaps they should replace all the $19.95 B& D and Mr. Coffee units
>> that are on the shelves all over America.
>
>Who is "they", and what do "they" have to do with it?
Retailers and importers. The ones that sell us all the stuff from
China that Americans buy because they think it is a bargain.
>
>> American consumers demand low priced "stuff", no matter the cost.
>
>"Sure there are few things that are done well, but that does NOT excuse
>the absolute factual evidence that the state of Chinese products is
>deplorable, even for use in China itself."
Which is why I never said it should be excused. It should not be. Not
all products are deplorable.
>
>Got the point yet??
No, you haven't.
When the American consumer demands and pays for well made products
made in countries with good human rights and working conditions, they
will get them. As long as we shop to save every possible penny on the
lowest priced TV, appliance, clothing, sneakers, it will come from the
cheapest producers in the world.
Until that happens, China will continue to produce both good and bad
products that meet the specifications given to them. When a million
people line up the same day to buy the latest I-product of the month,
it won't change.
Many of the tools, furnishings, foods made both domestically and
imported have been cheapened, lightened, thinned , watered and
adulterated and we keep buying th at crap.
Meantime, we cook up some Pink Slime and think we are getting a good
price on our food bill. I save 5¢ a pound at Bargain Mart over the
big Supermart. Yep, pure American made Pink Slime. Just as good as
melamine.
On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 10:47:43 -0500, Steve Turner
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On 3/25/2012 1:22 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 01:24:02 -0400, Dave<[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 00:53:21 -0400, Ed Pawlowski<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> Let's define quality. It is a product that works and will last for
>>>> the time it is designed to.
>>>
>>> That's a piss poor definition of quality in my opinion Ed. To me
>>> "quality" is a concept that sets something above its competitors.
>>> Whether that means something that lasts longer, looks better or
>>> operates better than a competitor, it certainly does *not* mean that
>>> it's just "Ok".
>>
>> That goes back to my original definition of ISO. It assures a
>> consistent product. It does not assure a quality product as you
>> described above.
>>
>> You either meet the standards set or you don't.
>>
>> ISO does not set anything apart from it competitors, make it last
>> longer or operate better. Therefore, it is not a quality system, nor
>> does it assure a "quality" product.
>
>Then how come part of following the ISO process requires the keeping of
>"quality records"? It IS a "quality system" in that it is designed to ensure
>*consistent* quality, to whatever degree YOU define the term "quality".
That was my original definition, a consistent product. If you
consider that a quality product, OK with me. Dave seemed to disagree
and think it is something above the others. I disagree on that point.
My point is, ISO does not guarantee a product better than others, It
just means it is what you say it is, be it a superior product or a
crap product. But consistent crap from box to box.
On Mar 21, 7:54=A0pm, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
> On 3/21/2012 7:26 PM, Bill wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Pat Barber wrote:
> >> "Gold Standard" is a relative term.
>
> >> The Unisaw and PM66 remain the kings of the cabinet shops.
>
> >> I already have my saws but if I were looking I would find myself
> >> a older Unisaw or PM66 in any working condition. They both can
> >> easily be restored to a "new" status.
>
> > When I saw the Unisaw at the Woodworkers show, I was a bit disappointed
> > that the rail the fence slid along was aluminum (square cross-section).
>
> > Is this evidence of cost-cutting? Worth noticing?
>
> > Bill
>
> If you bought a Unisaw with a Unifence 20 years ago it came with an
> aluminum front rail and fence. =A0Not a cost cutter and may actually be
> more expensive than the old tube steel.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Both my saws have the aluminum "square" (rectangle, actually) rail.
Have held up very well. The Unifence package came with the 1981 saw.
For the 1992 saw, I bought the newer fence package (not the Uni-T-
Fence) separate for, I think, about $350, which included the fence,
rail, and the side table frame/legs.... the side table's tabletop
surface did not come with this fence package.
The rail is pretty heavy, a lot heavier than I would have thought
aluminum would be, so it may not be typical (?) aluminum. I've
certainly never had reason to question its stability. There have been
a few times when I've moved my old saw by handling the end of the rail
(while attached to the side table). It was solid as a rock. I
wouldn't recommend moving a saw, that way, too often, though.
Sonny
When is the last time you've seen an American, Canadian, European
manufacturer get away with this level of unmitigated crap:
"Industrial Heavy Duty Caster Wheels", purchased six sets (24) of four a
few years back, brand new unopened; used for less than three months on
considerably less than 200 pound load.
All six sets have met the same fate within three months of being put to
limited use:
https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopJustStuff#5723587662054187346
Made in ... where else but .... China. (and that was in the fine print)
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
Lee Michaels wrote:
>
>
> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote
>>
>> As much as I despise the lawyer Gass, I'd spring for his saw before
>> I'd ever buy another Delta product, "Made(with Chinese parts) in USA,
>> or not.
>>
> At least he offers a quality product.
>
> There was a time when tools were built by craftsman for craftsman. You
> did not make junk. I may be old school, but I have always appreciated a
> quality product. Apparently those kinds of things are not covered in MBA
> school.
I was recently taken on a guided-tour of a parts-producing metal-working
(machining) factory. I was struck by the low ratio of people per square
foot. In many cases, the work being machined was hidden, at least
visually, from the machine operator (singular) during the process.
Almost everything, excepting some quality control, was automated (by
CNC). I guess this reflects our changing times. Engineering has largely
made many craftsmen obsolete (?), at least from
the viewpoint of today's modern industry.
Bill
"Gold Standard" is a relative term.
The Unisaw and PM66 remain the kings of the cabinet shops.
I already have my saws but if I were looking I would find myself
a older Unisaw or PM66 in any working condition. They both can
easily be restored to a "new" status.
Either saw would last anybody on this list a life time.
There are still saws made here:
http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/tablesaws/4saw.htm
or "not" made in the USA
http://www.felderusa.com/us-us/products/table-saws.html
There are "many" commercial table saws, most of which are
not in the hobby arena.
I currently own: 1966 Delta 12/14" tilting arbor table saw
1973 Delta Unisaw
1969 Delta 14" bandsaw
1980 Delta 17" drill press
> So, excluding the SawStop, which isn't anywhere on any of my lists, what
> might be considered the "Gold Standard" now in a cabinet saw?
On 3/21/2012 10:50 AM, Max wrote:
> So, excluding the SawStop, which isn't anywhere on any of my lists, what might
> be considered the "Gold Standard" now in a cabinet saw?
In the absence of the ubiquitous old Unisaw and PM66 that put both Delta and
Powermatic on the map, the field is certainly narrowed. I personally wouldn't
consider buying either of the products they developed as replacements. This
would seem to leave only the Jet Xacta saw as the sole product that looks
anything like the "legacy" tablesaws that we once considered "gold standards".
However, people always seem to forget about General:
http://www.general.ca/site_general/g_produits/saw/350R_650R.html
I just wonder how long General can continue offering their top of the line
"Made in Canada" machines before they succumb to the same pressures as Delta
and Powermatic.
If I was in the market for a reasonably priced 10" cabinet saw, I certainly
wouldn't have any qualms about considering Grizzly:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-Heavy-Duty-Cabinet-Table-Saw-With-Riving-Knife/G0651
http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-3HP-220V-Cabinet-Table-Saw-with-Long-Rails-Riving-Knife/G0691
If anybody here owns either of those machines, I'd certainly like to hear some
reviews. Both machines have riving knives (as does the General), and that
would be a requirement at the very top of my list.
--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
Sorry... I did leave out the General table saws
and the F-45 http://www.altendorf.de/en/products/f-45.html
The F-45 is a real piece of art.
I was wandering around the IWF in Atlanta one year and as
I came around a corner my wife was talking to a Altendorf
rep about what a "pretty" saw they built. I whispered the
price in her ear just to see the look on her face.
To just play with one will stun you. The sliding table moves with
one finger.
If you "ever" get a chance to see one....you will be amazed.
On Mar 24, 9:01=A0am, Max <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 3/24/2012 6:26 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 15:01:10 -0400, "Lee Michaels"
> > <leemichaels*nadaspam* at comcast dot net> =A0wrote:
>
> >> "RonB" =A0wrote
>
> >>> At the end of the day, folks who try to rank Grizzly in a category
> >>> with Harbor Freight are uninformed. =A0No comparison. =A0And no, I am=
not
> >>> a Grizzly-only shop. =A0My cabinet saw and planer are sitting among
> >>> Powermatic, Jet, Delta and other machine tools. =A0The Grizzly machin=
es
> >>> are in the same class as all of them.
>
> >>> So There! =A0 =A0:O)
>
> >> You tell'em Ron!
>
> >> All this talk about Grizzly. =A0I guess I will have to chime in. =A0I =
live 90
> >> minutes away from the Grizzly headquarters and know a bunch of people =
in
> >> that area. =A0They were the ones who told me about them. =A0Before I e=
ver got a
> >> catalog or bought anything from them, I saw the green tools in many sh=
ops.
> >> And there were working shops, building houses, furniture, musical
> >> instruments, etc. =A0The number one message I got from all of them was=
"bang
> >> for the buck". =A0The tools were a good value. =A0And far less expensi=
ve than
> >> many other, more prestigious names.
>
> >> I set up a shop with Grizzly tools over 25 years ago. =A0Good price on
> >> everything. =A0I did have to do some work to align the table saw. =A0B=
ut the
> >> walked me through it on the phone and sent me complete instructions. E=
very
> >> thing else was fine out of the box. =A0Since that time I have bought m=
any more
> >> of the tools. Some for me and many for other people. =A0Both for woodw=
orking
> >> and metalworking. I bought several of their drill presses.
>
> >> Having had this experience, I will say this about Grizzly.
>
> >> 1. =A0Yes, at one time there was some tweaking required. =A0Over the y=
ears,
> >> their quality has greatly improved. =A0But to this day, I find some tw=
eaking
> >> necessary (or desirable) on almost anything.
>
> >> 2. =A0One thing that greatly impresses me about Grizzly is that they a=
re
> >> incredibly responsive to their customers. =A0I remember talking to som=
e of the
> >> guys who bought their early table saws and how they told the folks at
> >> Grizzly what they wanted to see on the saw. =A0Grizzly went to work an=
d
> >> designed new saws. =A0Something they do to this day. =A0If they get en=
ough
> >> requests for a certain size and cost of a tool, they will manufacture =
it.
> >> How many companies can you name that will do that for you?
>
> >> 3. =A0They have an incredible number of models of many of their tools.=
=A0Many
> >> of their tools are designed for commercial use. =A0That means if you a=
re a
> >> hobbyist, you can buy a serious machine at a reasonable cost. =A0If yo=
u are a
> >> businessman, you can buy something that will do the job without mortga=
ging
> >> the tools. =A0And it gives you a Choice!! =A0Even if I can't afford it=
, I like
> >> the idea of actually having a choice of the tool I want. =A0Many suppl=
iers
> >> have one or two models. =A0 Grizzly has many models of many tools.
>
> >> 4. =A0One of the old timer tricks that the guys in those shops taught =
me was
> >> to first figure out what you wanted. =A0Then figure out what you could=
afford.
> >> Then buy the next one up the list from there. =A0By going to a tool ju=
st a
> >> little better, bigger, etc than what you figure you needed, you would =
end up
> >> getting something that will take care of you well into the future.
>
> >> 5. =A0I know I mentioned this before, but there are some serious barga=
ins in
> >> the scratch and dent department. =A0I bought several tools from there =
are good
> >> prices.
>
> >> I have not bought any tools from them for awhile. =A0And mostly I have=
helped
> >> other people buy tools form them recently. =A0I am impressed that they=
are
> >> constantly increasing the number and variety of tools. =A0They may not=
have
> >> the prestige and status of other tool brands. =A0But they offer a good
> >> selection, excellent support, good value, a massive website and ugly g=
reen
> >> paint too. =A0Again, I learned bout Grizzly from people who made their=
living
> >>from these tools. =A0I can't think of a better referral than that.
>
> > Your and RonB's posts today belong in the Wreck FAQ. Excellent, guys!
> > Well done.
>
> > P.S: Griz Green is Gorgeous compared to Ooogly Gray pieces of metal
> > which belong on some damned Naval ship. =A0Ptui!
>
> I see the difference between Grizzly and the better known brands as
> being similar to, say a Ford Fusion and a Lincoln MKZ. =A0They both have
> essentially the same body, power train, etc. but the MKZ is a bit more
> "finessed". =A0I like the Ford Fusion but I bought an MKZ. =A0;-)
>
> Max =A0(Candy Apple Red)
Well Said! And I agree that our Grizzly products do possess that
extra bit of finesse.
(Spoken by an ornery old fart with latent troll tendencies. :0) )
"Ed Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 08:42:13 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On 3/23/2012 10:44 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>
>>> ISO does not assure high quality. It assures consistency. If you
>>> make a high quality product, the next one will be the same as the
>>> last. If you make a crappy product, the next one will be the same as
>>> the last.
>>>
>>> ISO certification means you have policies and procedures to cover a
>>> series of situations. Inspections certify that you follow them.
>>
>>It is painfully apparent that many product spec's, including ISO, have
>>never been translated into Mandarin, or any of the myriad of other
>>languages spoken in China/Pacific rim.
>
>
> The real problem is not the translation, but the specification
> writers. If you specify cheap material made into a cheap assembly,
> you get a crap product. It is often the American engineers and bean
> counters writing those specs.
>
> I've found some very high quality products from China. I've also
> found some sleazy stuff being imported by US companies.
>
> I've also been buying tooling from China. The quality is equal or
> better, half the price and a third the delivery time. Our customers
> won't pay the price for US made tooling so we either walk away from
> the business and lay people off, or buy tooling from China and employ
> people.
On that note, I cannot bring myself to buy HF tools for myself... though I
have stopped in the HF store near my office and picked up tools for others.
The last bad experience was my helping drywall about 800 sq ft of space with
someone who had a HF drywall driver. I used my 25+ year old Porter Cable
driver that I've used to rock 4-5 houses worth of space and the interior of
a retail store in a strip mall. I could have done all the driving myself in
less total time than was spent with both tools. This due to the time spent
messing around with the HF driver's depth stop (that never seemed to be
right). Listening to the gritty motor on the HF tool wasn't pleasant
either...
That said, I have a bunch of Jet stationary tools and my DJ-20 hails from
Taiwan as I recall. Thus it's not a complete aversion to foreign tools it's
an aversion to low end foreign tools.
John
On 3/24/2012 6:26 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 15:01:10 -0400, "Lee Michaels"
> <leemichaels*nadaspam* at comcast dot net> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> "RonB" wrote
>>>
>>> At the end of the day, folks who try to rank Grizzly in a category
>>> with Harbor Freight are uninformed. No comparison. And no, I am not
>>> a Grizzly-only shop. My cabinet saw and planer are sitting among
>>> Powermatic, Jet, Delta and other machine tools. The Grizzly machines
>>> are in the same class as all of them.
>>>
>>> So There! :O)
>>
>> You tell'em Ron!
>>
>> All this talk about Grizzly. I guess I will have to chime in. I live 90
>> minutes away from the Grizzly headquarters and know a bunch of people in
>> that area. They were the ones who told me about them. Before I ever got a
>> catalog or bought anything from them, I saw the green tools in many shops.
>> And there were working shops, building houses, furniture, musical
>> instruments, etc. The number one message I got from all of them was "bang
>> for the buck". The tools were a good value. And far less expensive than
>> many other, more prestigious names.
>>
>> I set up a shop with Grizzly tools over 25 years ago. Good price on
>> everything. I did have to do some work to align the table saw. But the
>> walked me through it on the phone and sent me complete instructions. Every
>> thing else was fine out of the box. Since that time I have bought many more
>> of the tools. Some for me and many for other people. Both for woodworking
>> and metalworking. I bought several of their drill presses.
>>
>> Having had this experience, I will say this about Grizzly.
>>
>> 1. Yes, at one time there was some tweaking required. Over the years,
>> their quality has greatly improved. But to this day, I find some tweaking
>> necessary (or desirable) on almost anything.
>>
>> 2. One thing that greatly impresses me about Grizzly is that they are
>> incredibly responsive to their customers. I remember talking to some of the
>> guys who bought their early table saws and how they told the folks at
>> Grizzly what they wanted to see on the saw. Grizzly went to work and
>> designed new saws. Something they do to this day. If they get enough
>> requests for a certain size and cost of a tool, they will manufacture it.
>> How many companies can you name that will do that for you?
>>
>> 3. They have an incredible number of models of many of their tools. Many
>> of their tools are designed for commercial use. That means if you are a
>> hobbyist, you can buy a serious machine at a reasonable cost. If you are a
>> businessman, you can buy something that will do the job without mortgaging
>> the tools. And it gives you a Choice!! Even if I can't afford it, I like
>> the idea of actually having a choice of the tool I want. Many suppliers
>> have one or two models. Grizzly has many models of many tools.
>>
>> 4. One of the old timer tricks that the guys in those shops taught me was
>> to first figure out what you wanted. Then figure out what you could afford.
>> Then buy the next one up the list from there. By going to a tool just a
>> little better, bigger, etc than what you figure you needed, you would end up
>> getting something that will take care of you well into the future.
>>
>> 5. I know I mentioned this before, but there are some serious bargains in
>> the scratch and dent department. I bought several tools from there are good
>> prices.
>>
>> I have not bought any tools from them for awhile. And mostly I have helped
>> other people buy tools form them recently. I am impressed that they are
>> constantly increasing the number and variety of tools. They may not have
>> the prestige and status of other tool brands. But they offer a good
>> selection, excellent support, good value, a massive website and ugly green
>> paint too. Again, I learned bout Grizzly from people who made their living
>>from these tools. I can't think of a better referral than that.
>
> Your and RonB's posts today belong in the Wreck FAQ. Excellent, guys!
> Well done.
>
> P.S: Griz Green is Gorgeous compared to Ooogly Gray pieces of metal
> which belong on some damned Naval ship. Ptui!
>
I see the difference between Grizzly and the better known brands as
being similar to, say a Ford Fusion and a Lincoln MKZ. They both have
essentially the same body, power train, etc. but the MKZ is a bit more
"finessed". I like the Ford Fusion but I bought an MKZ. ;-)
Max (Candy Apple Red)
"Ed Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 22 Mar 2012 20:07:39 -0700, Doug Winterburn
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Not sure where the "tweaking" evaluation comes from, but the Griz
>>equipment I have required none - G0555 bandsaw, GO505 12.5" planer and
>>GO452 6" jointer. I did have to "tweak" a little when I installed the
>>riser kit on the bandsaw, but only about an hour or two including the
>>install.
>>
>>It is certainly no more "tweaking" and possibly less than some of the
>>other equipment I have.
>
> It comes from reading this group for a number of years. I see more
> people having to do little things on Grizzly more often than other
> brands. Not that the others are perfect.
Some times I wonder if people are less inclined to voice issues after
spending money on "more elite" items, e.g., hard to admit that the $2X item
was no better than the $1X item though it is better than the $.5X item.
This is along the lines of the old joke about how if you want to DRIVE a
Rolls Royce buy two of them so people don't notice while one is in the
shop...
Another thing I've noticed after reading reviews in various places is that
if you read between the lines the problems are often with the user rather
than the product. Having helped many people with computers, bicycles,
tools, and other things over the years a common factor with problems is the
nut running the thing... ;~) Sure, there are times when there really is a
problem with the item... but even then it often stems from the user's prior
activities.
In my case, my stationary tool "problems" generally stemmed from not buying
big enough tools the first time. If I'd purchased the 8" DJ-20 jointer first
I wouldn't have had problems with the 6" jointer tipping over as I ran long
heavy stock over it. If I'd purchased the 3 HP cabinet saw first I wouldn't
have had problems with the tiny table, crappy fence, and jerky starts of the
little Delta bench top saw...
I've had minor "real" issues. One was the Delta hollow chisel mortiser where
the depth stop handle broke off. Turns out many of them break off if the
parts suppliers "most popular" ratings are used as a guide. I had a problem
with the DJ-20 where the rabbeting shelf didn't fit as the surface that
mates to the jointer itself had been ground back too far. Delta sent out a
new shelf over night...
Shipping damage by careless carriers is another issue... seems they don't
understand that fork lifts are for lifting from the bottom, not for sticking
the forks through the crate like a bale of hay... It took 3 DJ-20 deliveries
to get one that wasn't mangled in some way. All three crates had been
pierced by fork lifts. The first one had also been dropped--broken pieces of
cast iron fell out upon lifting the jointer from the crate. The second one
the fence had been t-boned by a fork lift and a corner of the base was
dented in from rough handling. The third delivery only the crate was
damaged... I wonder if they figured out they had a problem with their
shipping people?
John
On 3/24/2012 9:20 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 08:42:13 -0500, Swingman<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 3/23/2012 10:44 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>
>>> ISO does not assure high quality. It assures consistency. If you
>>> make a high quality product, the next one will be the same as the
>>> last. If you make a crappy product, the next one will be the same as
>>> the last.
>>>
>>> ISO certification means you have policies and procedures to cover a
>>> series of situations. Inspections certify that you follow them.
>>
>> It is painfully apparent that many product spec's, including ISO, have
>> never been translated into Mandarin, or any of the myriad of other
>> languages spoken in China/Pacific rim.
>
>
> The real problem is not the translation, but the specification
> writers. If you specify cheap material made into a cheap assembly,
> you get a crap product. It is often the American engineers and bean
> counters writing those specs.
>
> I've found some very high quality products from China. I've also
> found some sleazy stuff being imported by US companies.
>
> I've also been buying tooling from China. The quality is equal or
> better, half the price and a third the delivery time. Our customers
> won't pay the price for US made tooling so we either walk away from
> the business and lay people off, or buy tooling from China and employ
> people.
Tired of hearing that overplayed tune as an excuse.
Sure there are few things that are done well, but that does NOT excuse
the absolute factual evidence that the state of Chinese products is
deplorable, even for use in China itself.
The below is just the tip of a growing iceberg. Dig into any of the
links (which might take you months) and what you find is a manufacturing
culture with no regard whatsoever for quality, value, and human decency
when it comes to making a buck, and basically little regulation to
insure even its own citizens are safe from that greed, much less what
they sell to the "Gwai Lo" :
http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/reference/timestopics/subjects/c/consumer_product_safety/china/index.html
In short, if it says "made in china", with overall rare exception, it is
cheap crap.
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
On Thu, 22 Mar 2012 20:07:39 -0700, Doug Winterburn
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Not sure where the "tweaking" evaluation comes from, but the Griz
>equipment I have required none - G0555 bandsaw, GO505 12.5" planer and
>GO452 6" jointer. I did have to "tweak" a little when I installed the
>riser kit on the bandsaw, but only about an hour or two including the
>install.
>
>It is certainly no more "tweaking" and possibly less than some of the
>other equipment I have.
It comes from reading this group for a number of years. I see more
people having to do little things on Grizzly more often than other
brands. Not that the others are perfect.
On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 15:01:10 -0400, "Lee Michaels"
<leemichaels*nadaspam* at comcast dot net> wrote:
>
>
>"RonB" wrote
>>
>> At the end of the day, folks who try to rank Grizzly in a category
>> with Harbor Freight are uninformed. No comparison. And no, I am not
>> a Grizzly-only shop. My cabinet saw and planer are sitting among
>> Powermatic, Jet, Delta and other machine tools. The Grizzly machines
>> are in the same class as all of them.
>>
>> So There! :O)
>
>You tell'em Ron!
>
>All this talk about Grizzly. I guess I will have to chime in. I live 90
>minutes away from the Grizzly headquarters and know a bunch of people in
>that area. They were the ones who told me about them. Before I ever got a
>catalog or bought anything from them, I saw the green tools in many shops.
>And there were working shops, building houses, furniture, musical
>instruments, etc. The number one message I got from all of them was "bang
>for the buck". The tools were a good value. And far less expensive than
>many other, more prestigious names.
>
>I set up a shop with Grizzly tools over 25 years ago. Good price on
>everything. I did have to do some work to align the table saw. But the
>walked me through it on the phone and sent me complete instructions. Every
>thing else was fine out of the box. Since that time I have bought many more
>of the tools. Some for me and many for other people. Both for woodworking
>and metalworking. I bought several of their drill presses.
>
>Having had this experience, I will say this about Grizzly.
>
>1. Yes, at one time there was some tweaking required. Over the years,
>their quality has greatly improved. But to this day, I find some tweaking
>necessary (or desirable) on almost anything.
>
>2. One thing that greatly impresses me about Grizzly is that they are
>incredibly responsive to their customers. I remember talking to some of the
>guys who bought their early table saws and how they told the folks at
>Grizzly what they wanted to see on the saw. Grizzly went to work and
>designed new saws. Something they do to this day. If they get enough
>requests for a certain size and cost of a tool, they will manufacture it.
>How many companies can you name that will do that for you?
>
>3. They have an incredible number of models of many of their tools. Many
>of their tools are designed for commercial use. That means if you are a
>hobbyist, you can buy a serious machine at a reasonable cost. If you are a
>businessman, you can buy something that will do the job without mortgaging
>the tools. And it gives you a Choice!! Even if I can't afford it, I like
>the idea of actually having a choice of the tool I want. Many suppliers
>have one or two models. Grizzly has many models of many tools.
>
>4. One of the old timer tricks that the guys in those shops taught me was
>to first figure out what you wanted. Then figure out what you could afford.
>Then buy the next one up the list from there. By going to a tool just a
>little better, bigger, etc than what you figure you needed, you would end up
>getting something that will take care of you well into the future.
>
>5. I know I mentioned this before, but there are some serious bargains in
>the scratch and dent department. I bought several tools from there are good
>prices.
>
>I have not bought any tools from them for awhile. And mostly I have helped
>other people buy tools form them recently. I am impressed that they are
>constantly increasing the number and variety of tools. They may not have
>the prestige and status of other tool brands. But they offer a good
>selection, excellent support, good value, a massive website and ugly green
>paint too. Again, I learned bout Grizzly from people who made their living
>from these tools. I can't think of a better referral than that.
Your and RonB's posts today belong in the Wreck FAQ. Excellent, guys!
Well done.
P.S: Griz Green is Gorgeous compared to Ooogly Gray pieces of metal
which belong on some damned Naval ship. Ptui!
--
Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens.
-- Jimi Hendrix
On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 08:42:13 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 3/23/2012 10:44 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
>> ISO does not assure high quality. It assures consistency. If you
>> make a high quality product, the next one will be the same as the
>> last. If you make a crappy product, the next one will be the same as
>> the last.
>>
>> ISO certification means you have policies and procedures to cover a
>> series of situations. Inspections certify that you follow them.
>
>It is painfully apparent that many product spec's, including ISO, have
>never been translated into Mandarin, or any of the myriad of other
>languages spoken in China/Pacific rim.
The real problem is not the translation, but the specification
writers. If you specify cheap material made into a cheap assembly,
you get a crap product. It is often the American engineers and bean
counters writing those specs.
I've found some very high quality products from China. I've also
found some sleazy stuff being imported by US companies.
I've also been buying tooling from China. The quality is equal or
better, half the price and a third the delivery time. Our customers
won't pay the price for US made tooling so we either walk away from
the business and lay people off, or buy tooling from China and employ
people.
On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 17:05:36 -0700 (PDT), RonB <[email protected]>
wrote:
>>
>> ISO certification means you have policies and procedures to cover a
>> series of situations. Inspections certify that you follow them.
>
>I agree with almost everything said. However a production system that
>can produce consistency is usually building quality because it has the
>processes and controls to do so. Poor quality often results from
>production breaks and inconsistent operations and products.
Let's define quality. It is a product that works and will last for
the time it is designed to. If the design calls for two red and one
green lights, it will have two red and one green light. Even if they
are mounted in a place where you cannot see them. If it calls for 0.5
mill plastic for the trash bag, it will be that thickness but does not
perform as well as the 1.5 mil bags from Brand X. Load them thin ISO
made bags with heavy garbage and they will fail. Consistently though.
Same with a drill or saw with a small motor as compared to a more
expensive drill or saw with a more powerful motor with better bearings
and such.
ISO9000 assures that you have a policy to set aside defective material
and not mix it with the good stuff. It that way, yes, it can make a
better product than letting crap slip back through to the assembly
line. The policy has a defined method to be sure you use the right
drawings and manufacturing orders. If you specify low grade
materials, it assures that is what you get.
Pat Barber wrote:
> "Gold Standard" is a relative term.
>
> The Unisaw and PM66 remain the kings of the cabinet shops.
>
> I already have my saws but if I were looking I would find myself
> a older Unisaw or PM66 in any working condition. They both can
> easily be restored to a "new" status.
When I saw the Unisaw at the Woodworkers show, I was a bit disappointed
that the rail the fence slid along was aluminum (square cross-section).
Is this evidence of cost-cutting? Worth noticing?
Bill
Both of those saws are considered some of the better ones.
The 1981 is probably a more preferred year but there is
virtually no difference in a Unisaw built in 1939 to 1995.
They changed the fences and the hand wheel appearance but
the guts remained the same. The motors got more powerful
as the years went by.
There is still "many" Unisaw's built in the 1940's that are in
current use.
The 50's - 60's were considered the "golden years" of Delta
power tools by many people.
On 3/21/2012 2:43 PM, Sonny wrote:
> I have a model 34-807 (made in 1992) and a model 34-761 (made in
> 1981). I would like to think they were made during the time the
> quality was at their maximum. I don't recall ever looking to see if
> there's a Made in USA tag on them.
On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 01:24:02 -0400, Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 00:53:21 -0400, Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
>>Let's define quality. It is a product that works and will last for
>>the time it is designed to.
>
>That's a piss poor definition of quality in my opinion Ed. To me
>"quality" is a concept that sets something above its competitors.
>Whether that means something that lasts longer, looks better or
>operates better than a competitor, it certainly does *not* mean that
>it's just "Ok".
That goes back to my original definition of ISO. It assures a
consistent product. It does not assure a quality product as you
described above.
You either meet the standards set or you don't.
ISO does not set anything apart from it competitors, make it last
longer or operate better. Therefore, it is not a quality system, nor
does it assure a "quality" product.
"Larry Jaques" wrote
On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 08:01:46 -0600, Max wrote:
>>I see the difference between Grizzly and the better known brands as
>>being similar to, say a Ford Fusion and a Lincoln MKZ. They both have
>>essentially the same body, power train, etc. but the MKZ is a bit more
>>"finessed". I like the Ford Fusion but I bought an MKZ. ;-)
>
>>Max (Candy Apple Red)
>Cool, that's the epitome of Male Menopause colors!
>Happy Midlife Crisis to ya, Maxy. xox
Actually the choice was SWMBOs, although I do occasionally get to drive it.
I don't know how old she really is but she has celebrated 39 for quite a
number of years.
My truck is white.
Max
On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 09:47:34 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Tired of hearing that overplayed tune as an excuse.
I'm tired of hearing that everything from China is junk. Some is,
much is not.
>
>Sure there are few things that are done well, but that does NOT excuse
>the absolute factual evidence that the state of Chinese products is
>deplorable, even for use in China itself.
>
>The below is just the tip of a growing iceberg. Dig into any of the
>links (which might take you months) and what you find is a manufacturing
>culture with no regard whatsoever for quality, value, and human decency
>when it comes to making a buck, and basically little regulation to
>insure even its own citizens are safe from that greed, much less what
>they sell to the "Gwai Lo" :
>
>http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/reference/timestopics/subjects/c/consumer_product_safety/china/index.html
>
>In short, if it says "made in china", with overall rare exception, it is
>cheap crap.
Your translation. Yes, some working conditions are deplorable, they
have no regard for human life and some businessmen are greedy SOBs
too. That does not change the fact that they can also make a quality
product when asked to and they can make crap when asked to.
While casting stones over the Pacific is appropriate in many cases,
look at the situation here at the same time. Who is importing that
stuff? Who is buying that stuff and why?
I just ordered a new coffee maker, made in the Netherlands for $300.
Perhaps they should replace all the $19.95 B & D and Mr. Coffee units
that are on the shelves all over America. As a whole, we would not
stand for it and pay the price for a quality US made coffee maker.
American consumers demand low priced "stuff", no matter the cost.
On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 11:48:05 -0400, Bill <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On 3/23/2012 8:46 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>> I like Makitas, too, and ordered their SP6000K1 plunge saw yesterday.
>
>
>Congratulations sir!
Thanks. $393 at Home Depot, including free delivery. I still have to
get another 55" piece of track and the couplers, around $130. But
I'll have it pay for itself first.
I think I'll use it to construct a case for itself (if it doesn't come
with one.)
--
Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens.
-- Jimi Hendrix
On 3/25/2012 12:24 AM, Dave wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 00:53:21 -0400, Ed Pawlowski<[email protected]> wrote:
>> Let's define quality. It is a product that works and will last for
>> the time it is designed to.
>
> That's a piss poor definition of quality in my opinion Ed. To me
> "quality" is a concept that sets something above its competitors.
> Whether that means something that lasts longer, looks better or
> operates better than a competitor, it certainly does *not* mean that
> it's just "Ok".
>
No I agree, it is a quality product, an average quality object.
On 3/24/2012 6:34 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 13:03:54 -0500, Swingman wrote:
>
>>> I'm tired of hearing that everything from China is junk. Some is, much
>>> is not.
>>
>> "Sure there are few things that are done well, but that does NOT excuse
>> the absolute factual evidence that the state of Chinese products is
>> deplorable, even for use in China itself."
>
> Multiple repetitions of your opinion does not change the fact that it's
> your opinion.
Did you just miss the link I posted taking it clearly taking it out of
the realm of my _opinion_, or just ignore that, as Ed did?
An Ed did what by repeating the same thing over and over, in slightly
different ways, in the hopes that his obvious "opinion", with nothing
cited to back it up, would somehow become more relevant?
A bit of _obvious_ tit for tat, to make a point is always in order ...
but does indeed go over some heads.
> Yes, it's an opinion shared by many others. But Ed's
> opinion fits a lot better with my experience.
And exactly how does that differ with:
"Sure there are few things that are done well, but that does NOT excuse
the absolute factual evidence that the state of Chinese products is
deplorable, even for use in China itself."
Which is not, as you indicate, "opinion".
Here's that cite again:
http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/reference/timestopics/subjects/c/consumer_product_safety/china/index.html
> So I'm pretty much agreeing with Ed - some is junk, some isn't.
Which in what way does not agree with my statement you quoted above?
Sorry, your post simply does not stand examination with regard to the
facts ...
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
On 3/24/2012 6:34 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 13:03:54 -0500, Swingman wrote:
> So I'm pretty much agreeing with Ed - some is junk, some isn't. And a
> reasonable examination of a tool before purchase will usually indicate
> its quality.
In case you missed this bit of fact and not "opinion":
https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopJustStuff#5723587662054187346
This stuff was marketed by a Chinese manufacturer selling "cabinet
furniture" for the global market, and not made to an American company's
specs.
But what do you wanna bet it was a direct copy/ripoff, eh?
And forget about a "reasonable examination" of the product ... it did no
such thing that you indicate an examination would do.
Hell, send me your address and I'll send you the one remaining caster if
you want to give your "examination" routine a shot.
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
>
> On 3/25/2012 1:22 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> > On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 01:24:02 -0400, Dave<[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 00:53:21 -0400, Ed Pawlowski<[email protected]> wrote:
> >>> Let's define quality. It is a product that works and will last for
> >>> the time it is designed to.
> >>
> >> That's a piss poor definition of quality in my opinion Ed. To me
> >> "quality" is a concept that sets something above its competitors.
> >> Whether that means something that lasts longer, looks better or
> >> operates better than a competitor, it certainly does *not* mean that
> >> it's just "Ok".
> >
> > That goes back to my original definition of ISO. It assures a
> > consistent product. It does not assure a quality product as you
> > described above.
> >
> > You either meet the standards set or you don't.
> >
> > ISO does not set anything apart from it competitors, make it last
> > longer or operate better. Therefore, it is not a quality system, nor
> > does it assure a "quality" product.
>
> Then how come part of following the ISO process requires the keeping of
> "quality records"? It IS a "quality system" in that it is designed to ensure
> *consistent* quality, to whatever degree YOU define the term "quality".
I think that Dave and Ed are using the term "quality" to mean "high-
quality" and totally ignoring the notion of "low quality".
Does a Rolls have no quality because a Ferrari can beat it on a
racetrack? Does the P-51 have no quality because an F-22 can fly rings
around it backwards?
On 3/24/2012 12:32 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 09:47:34 -0500, Swingman<[email protected]> wrote:
>> Tired of hearing that overplayed tune as an excuse.
>
> I'm tired of hearing that everything from China is junk. Some is,
> much is not.
"Sure there are few things that are done well, but that does NOT excuse
the absolute factual evidence that the state of Chinese products is
deplorable, even for use in China itself."
>> Sure there are few things that are done well, but that does NOT excuse
>> the absolute factual evidence that the state of Chinese products is
>> deplorable, even for use in China itself.
>>
>> The below is just the tip of a growing iceberg. Dig into any of the
>> links (which might take you months) and what you find is a manufacturing
>> culture with no regard whatsoever for quality, value, and human decency
>> when it comes to making a buck, and basically little regulation to
>> insure even its own citizens are safe from that greed, much less what
>> they sell to the "Gwai Lo" :
>>
>> http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/reference/timestopics/subjects/c/consumer_product_safety/china/index.html
>>
>> In short, if it says "made in china", with overall rare exception, it is
>> cheap crap.
>
>
> Your translation. Yes, some working conditions are deplorable, they
> have no regard for human life and some businessmen are greedy SOBs
> too. That does not change the fact that they can also make a quality
> product when asked to and they can make crap when asked to.
"Sure there are few things that are done well, but that does NOT excuse
the absolute factual evidence that the state of Chinese products is
deplorable, even for use in China itself."
> While casting stones over the Pacific is appropriate in many cases,
> look at the situation here at the same time. Who is importing that
> stuff? Who is buying that stuff and why?
"Sure there are few things that are done well, but that does NOT excuse
the absolute factual evidence that the state of Chinese products is
deplorable, even for use in China itself."
> I just ordered a new coffee maker, made in the Netherlands for $300.
> Perhaps they should replace all the $19.95 B& D and Mr. Coffee units
> that are on the shelves all over America.
Who is "they", and what do "they" have to do with it?
> American consumers demand low priced "stuff", no matter the cost.
"Sure there are few things that are done well, but that does NOT excuse
the absolute factual evidence that the state of Chinese products is
deplorable, even for use in China itself."
Got the point yet??
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 09:47:34 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Tired of hearing that overplayed tune as an excuse.
I'm tired of hearing that everything from China is junk. Some is,
much is not.
>
>Sure there are few things that are done well, but that does NOT excuse
>the absolute factual evidence that the state of Chinese products is
>deplorable, even for use in China itself.
>
>The below is just the tip of a growing iceberg. Dig into any of the
>links (which might take you months) and what you find is a manufacturing
>culture with no regard whatsoever for quality, value, and human decency
>when it comes to making a buck, and basically little regulation to
>insure even its own citizens are safe from that greed, much less what
>they sell to the "Gwai Lo" :
>
>http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/reference/timestopics/subjects/c/consumer_product_safety/china/index.html
>
>In short, if it says "made in china", with overall rare exception, it is
>cheap crap.
Your translation. Yes, some working conditions are deplorable, they
have no regard for human life and some businessmen are greedy SOBs
too. That does not change the fact that they can also make a quality
product when asked to and they can make crap when asked to.
While casting stones over the Pacific is appropriate in many cases,
look at the situation here at the same time. Who is importing that
stuff? Who is buying that stuff and why?
I just ordered a new coffee maker, made in the Netherlands for $300.
Perhaps they should replace all the $19.95 B & D and Mr. Coffee units
that are on the shelves all over America. As a whole, we would not
stand for it and pay the price for a quality US made coffee maker.
American consumers demand low priced "stuff", no matter the cost.
=================================================================
Agreed. Back in the days that Japanese stuff still had the reputation as
junk, I lived in Japan. The amount of quality products and technology was
amazing.You could, of course, buy junk too if that is what you wanted. The
reason you didn't see it in the US was because the importers, seeking max
profit, were only importing the junk as it was the cheapest they could buy
and still sell it here. That is the same thing going on with China right
now. They can and do make quality products but they are more expensive than
the importers are willing to pay. For a good example of that, take a look at
some of the precision measuring instruments coming out of China.
Micrometers, calipers, height gages, ect. Very well made and very accurate.
I have no doubt that the molds that Ed is buying are well made. All the
importers have to do is not buy junk then you would see what they are
capable of. Unfortunately, that does cut into our manufacturing base. I
think the coming war will straiten things out a bit though.
On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 08:01:46 -0600, Max <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 3/24/2012 6:26 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> P.S: Griz Green is Gorgeous compared to Ooogly Gray pieces of metal
>> which belong on some damned Naval ship. Ptui!
>>
>
>I see the difference between Grizzly and the better known brands as
>being similar to, say a Ford Fusion and a Lincoln MKZ. They both have
>essentially the same body, power train, etc. but the MKZ is a bit more
>"finessed". I like the Ford Fusion but I bought an MKZ. ;-)
>
>Max (Candy Apple Red)
Cool, that's the epitome of Male Menopause colors!
Happy Midlife Crisis to ya, Maxy. xox
--
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the
government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson
On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 13:03:54 -0500, Swingman wrote:
>> I'm tired of hearing that everything from China is junk. Some is, much
>> is not.
>
> "Sure there are few things that are done well, but that does NOT excuse
> the absolute factual evidence that the state of Chinese products is
> deplorable, even for use in China itself."
Multiple repetitions of your opinion does not change the fact that it's
your opinion. Yes, it's an opinion shared by many others. But Ed's
opinion fits a lot better with my experience.
I saw a lot of Chiwanese tools when I worked at Woodcraft. Most were not
junk. The ones that were maybe not junk, but of lesser quality, tended
to be the portable tools (No, not the Festool). OK, maybe not a fair
sample, as Woodcraft doesn't tend to import the really low quality tools,
although I do recall some hand planes that were made in India as being
pretty bad.
So I'm pretty much agreeing with Ed - some is junk, some isn't. And a
reasonable examination of a tool before purchase will usually indicate
its quality.
--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw
On 3/25/2012 1:22 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 01:24:02 -0400, Dave<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 00:53:21 -0400, Ed Pawlowski<[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Let's define quality. It is a product that works and will last for
>>> the time it is designed to.
>>
>> That's a piss poor definition of quality in my opinion Ed. To me
>> "quality" is a concept that sets something above its competitors.
>> Whether that means something that lasts longer, looks better or
>> operates better than a competitor, it certainly does *not* mean that
>> it's just "Ok".
>
> That goes back to my original definition of ISO. It assures a
> consistent product. It does not assure a quality product as you
> described above.
>
> You either meet the standards set or you don't.
>
> ISO does not set anything apart from it competitors, make it last
> longer or operate better. Therefore, it is not a quality system, nor
> does it assure a "quality" product.
Then how come part of following the ISO process requires the keeping of
"quality records"? It IS a "quality system" in that it is designed to ensure
*consistent* quality, to whatever degree YOU define the term "quality".
--
Any given amount of traffic flow, no matter how
sparse, will expand to fill all available lanes.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 11:18:27 -0400, "John Grossbohlin"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> I've also been buying tooling from China. The quality is equal or
>> better, half the price and a third the delivery time. Our customers
>> won't pay the price for US made tooling so we either walk away from
>> the business and lay people off, or buy tooling from China and employ
>> people.
>
>On that note, I cannot bring myself to buy HF tools for myself... though I
>have stopped in the HF store near my office and picked up tools for others.
When I say tooling, I'm talking about aluminum molds for plastics.
They can cost from $6,000 to $50,000, depending on size and
complexity. These are on-off specialty items.
Lead times from China are usually 20 to 25 days. In the US, it is six
to eight weeks.
Let me jump in here... I hope I have a parachute.
Some Chinese items are better than American.
I have been buying the plastic compartments from HF. I used to buy
PLANO's but they are trash now. The material is so then on the planos
that the cover just buckles away when you carry one vertically. And
everything co-mingles. Yet the HF have been very sturdy. The planos now
only come with like 5-8 separators. So when buying a twenty something
compartment box you only get 5-8 compartments with plano.
So it goes both ways. But I would rather keep my money in the USA. But
I'm not stupid either.
On 3/24/2012 2:03 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 3/24/2012 12:32 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 09:47:34 -0500, Swingman<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>> Tired of hearing that overplayed tune as an excuse.
>>
>> I'm tired of hearing that everything from China is junk. Some is,
>> much is not.
>
> "Sure there are few things that are done well, but that does NOT excuse
> the absolute factual evidence that the state of Chinese products is
> deplorable, even for use in China itself."
>
>>> Sure there are few things that are done well, but that does NOT excuse
>>> the absolute factual evidence that the state of Chinese products is
>>> deplorable, even for use in China itself.
>>>
>>> The below is just the tip of a growing iceberg. Dig into any of the
>>> links (which might take you months) and what you find is a manufacturing
>>> culture with no regard whatsoever for quality, value, and human decency
>>> when it comes to making a buck, and basically little regulation to
>>> insure even its own citizens are safe from that greed, much less what
>>> they sell to the "Gwai Lo" :
>>>
>>> http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/reference/timestopics/subjects/c/consumer_product_safety/china/index.html
>>>
>>>
>>> In short, if it says "made in china", with overall rare exception, it is
>>> cheap crap.
>>
>>
>> Your translation. Yes, some working conditions are deplorable, they
>> have no regard for human life and some businessmen are greedy SOBs
>> too. That does not change the fact that they can also make a quality
>> product when asked to and they can make crap when asked to.
>
> "Sure there are few things that are done well, but that does NOT excuse
> the absolute factual evidence that the state of Chinese products is
> deplorable, even for use in China itself."
>
>> While casting stones over the Pacific is appropriate in many cases,
>> look at the situation here at the same time. Who is importing that
>> stuff? Who is buying that stuff and why?
>
> "Sure there are few things that are done well, but that does NOT excuse
> the absolute factual evidence that the state of Chinese products is
> deplorable, even for use in China itself."
>
>> I just ordered a new coffee maker, made in the Netherlands for $300.
>> Perhaps they should replace all the $19.95 B& D and Mr. Coffee units
>> that are on the shelves all over America.
>
> Who is "they", and what do "they" have to do with it?
>
>> American consumers demand low priced "stuff", no matter the cost.
>
> "Sure there are few things that are done well, but that does NOT excuse
> the absolute factual evidence that the state of Chinese products is
> deplorable, even for use in China itself."
>
> Got the point yet??
>
On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 00:53:21 -0400, Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
>Let's define quality. It is a product that works and will last for
>the time it is designed to.
That's a piss poor definition of quality in my opinion Ed. To me
"quality" is a concept that sets something above its competitors.
Whether that means something that lasts longer, looks better or
operates better than a competitor, it certainly does *not* mean that
it's just "Ok".
On 3/26/2012 7:33 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 3/25/2012 12:24 AM, Dave wrote:
>> On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 00:53:21 -0400, Ed Pawlowski<[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Let's define quality. It is a product that works and will last for
>>> the time it is designed to.
>>
>> That's a piss poor definition of quality in my opinion Ed. To me
>> "quality" is a concept that sets something above its competitors.
>> Whether that means something that lasts longer, looks better or
>> operates better than a competitor, it certainly does *not* mean that
>> it's just "Ok".
>>
>
> No I agree, it is a quality product, an average quality object.
Like "built to code", means built to _minimum_ standards. ;)
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
On 3/21/2012 12:35 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 3/21/2012 9:05 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
>> Please tell me the Timber Wolf band saw blades is not being produced by
>> them, just distributed.
> More than Likely only distributed. For several years now Delta has been
> selling other brands, Beisemeyer, Osbourne...
Beisemeyer is not another brand, it is the Delta brand. They bought
Beisemeyer manufacturing about 20 years ago. A few years ago I bought a
Delta fence for my tsaw, and it is really just a Beisemeyer fence at a
much cheaper price, far as I can tell.
Most of my stationary tools are early 50's Rockwell Delta that I bought
used in '75. When I went to Rockwell for parts and stuff, one of the
old salesman told me they don't make them like they used to, and he
pointed out a ton of junky stuff on a new band saw that was the newer
model of mine. Looked similar from 20ft away, but he quickly showed me
where they turned them into junk. So they have been making shitty stuff
for at least 37 years:-)
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On Thu, 22 Mar 2012 11:28:43 -0400, Jack wrote:
> Most of my stationary tools are early 50's Rockwell Delta that I bought
> used in '75. When I went to Rockwell for parts and stuff, one of the
> old salesman told me they don't make them like they used to, and he
> pointed out a ton of junky stuff on a new band saw that was the newer
> model of mine. Looked similar from 20ft away, but he quickly showed me
> where they turned them into junk. So they have been making shitty stuff
> for at least 37 years:-)
Actually, they haven't been making *anything* for quite some time.
Somebody else bought the name and has applied it to a line of "consumer
grade" (and that's being polite) tools.
--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw
Max wrote:
> Questions have been posed by the previous input:
> 1. Is a Grizzly (foreign made) better than a Powermatic or Unisaw?
> 2. What features do others consider most important? (never mind the
> fence, it can be purchased separately if necessary)
> I don't dismiss anyone's suggestions.
>
> Max
>
I have been pondering your question since before you posted it. Here's
an aspect you may not have considered: When you say "Is it better?", do
you include quality control issues? Grizzly appears to rank 3rd in that
category among it and Powermatic and Delta. I could be totally wrong.
That is just my perception. Also, with Delta and Powermatic, you get
the impression that parts will always be available--I'm not
as confident regarding that with Grizzly (do they even sell parts?) I
think these factors are part of a "better" saw. I'm looking forward to
following the discussion.
Bill
J. Clarke wrote:
> When one says "hobbyist" the question arises "hobbyist doing what" and
> "with what budget". If Bill Gates decided to take up woodworking as a
> hobby he could just buy Delta. Not tools from Delta, the whole company.
>
I wonder if he knows the difference between a muntin and a mullion? : )
I wouldn't say the Unisaw has gone down hill.
The management of the company has gone down hill.
The manufacturing process has gone down hill or left the country.
The cast iron casting process was moved off shore due to environmental
concerns.
Cost accounting running a assemble line has gone down hill.
The small cabinet shop is struggling their ass off which reduces
demand for the product.
Many factors has made the equipment design suffer, but mostly people
with bad ideas has caused the demise of quality equipment made here
or any where else. "Good Enough" is the new quality product.
The Unisaw can't be blamed for it's problems.
I don't say this to annoy other folks but a 40 year old Unisaw
remains head and shoulders above anything else currently being sold.
Remember, the Unisaw was designed in 1938. Do you have anything you
own that was designed and built in 1939 and still works ?
This is strictly my opinion and I'm sure many will disagree.
On 3/22/2012 3:06 PM, Bill wrote:
>
> What are some of the ways has the Unisaw went downhill since then?
Max wrote:
> On 3/23/2012 10:54 AM, RonB wrote:
>> On Mar 22, 5:12 pm, "Max"<[email protected]> wrote:
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>
>>> Questions have been posed by the previous input:
>>> 1. Is a Grizzly (foreign made) better than a Powermatic or Unisaw?
>>> 2. What features do others consider most important? (never mind the
>>> fence,
>>> it can be purchased separately if necessary)
>>> I don't dismiss anyone's suggestions.
>>>
>>> Max
>>
>> I'll frame this it the time frame when I bought my Grizzly G1023S:
>
>> At the end of the day, folks who try to rank Grizzly in a category
>> with Harbor Freight are uninformed. No comparison. And no, I am not
>> a Grizzly-only shop. My cabinet saw and planer are sitting among
>> Powermatic, Jet, Delta and other machine tools. The Grizzly machines
>> are in the same class as all of them.
>>
>> So There! :O)
>>
>> RonB
>
> After seeing several recommendations by those with Grizzly experience I
> would agree that they deserve consideration.
> I looked at the 690. It seems to be a worthy candidate but I noticed
> that it didn't have a "blade shroud"; a feature that several other
> manufacturers have adopted. Since dust control is a major item on my
> "want" list I hesitate on buying a Grizzly.
> Your input is greatly appreciated.
>
> Max
>
>
This review on the Grizzly 0690 was just posted to Lumberjocks.com.
They send them to me automatically : ) I thought anyone here currently
considering the saw might be interested.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hauer commented on a review:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Brand new to Lumberjocks and joined mainly to give my initial opinion on
this saw. Recieved a couple weeks ago and set up recently. Mine too
needed significant adjuistment in every area (fence to slot, blade to
table, etc.). I too used a Pinnacle set up guage and it was a huge
help. Couple points I wanted mention to see if others had similar
issues. First, the throat inserts (both standard and dado) that came
with the saw were not flat. It makes leveling them with the table near
impossible. I called Grizzly and they sent out anther set...same
problem not as bad however. I ended up making zero clearance inserts.
The issue there was that the blade does not lower enough to install the
insert flush with table then raise blade through it (even with a relieve
cut in bottom of insert). I had to shim the insert up almost 1/4" above
the table surface in order to clear blade on initial pass through.
Squaring the fence to miter slot does take some time but is pretty
straightforward. However, upon squareing the fence I did notice that
the guage would still fluctuate when passed along the face down the
length of the fence. This is because the face is HDPE and where it is
secured to the fence the fasteners create an indention. The guage would
bounce some 10/1000 at each attachment point. Prob not a big deal but
just thought I'd mention.
Like I said, was just checking to see if any others shared concerns or
would like to comment on those listed. Thanks.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
On 03/26/2012 05:01 PM, Bill wrote:
> I ended up making zero clearance inserts. The issue
> there was that the blade does not lower enough to install the insert
> flush with table then raise blade through it (even with a relieve cut in
> bottom of insert). I had to shim the insert up almost 1/4" above the
> table surface in order to clear blade on initial pass through.
That "problem" is not unique to Grizzly saws.
--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
In article <[email protected]>,
Steve Turner <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 03/26/2012 05:01 PM, Bill wrote:
>> I ended up making zero clearance inserts. The issue
>> there was that the blade does not lower enough to install the insert
>> flush with table then raise blade through it (even with a relieve cut in
>> bottom of insert). I had to shim the insert up almost 1/4" above the
>> table surface in order to clear blade on initial pass through.
>
>That "problem" is not unique to Grizzly saws.
>
>--
>Free bad advice available here.
>To reply, eat the taco.
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
Lower the blade completely. Lift up your standard insert slightly, then
bring the fence over so it contacts the insert. Drop the insert back in
place. Now place your new, soon-to-be ZCI on top of the standard insert
and butting against the fence. Clamp a block to the fence over the ZCI
and another in front of it. You can now raise the blade up through the
standard insert and your new ZCI. If youv'e made multiple ZCI blanks,
t's now a good time to slot those as well.
--
Better to be stuck up in a tree than tied to one.
Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar.org
Larry W wrote:
> In article<[email protected]>,
> Steve Turner<[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 03/26/2012 05:01 PM, Bill wrote:
>>> I ended up making zero clearance inserts. The issue
>>> there was that the blade does not lower enough to install the insert
>>> flush with table then raise blade through it (even with a relieve cut in
>>> bottom of insert). I had to shim the insert up almost 1/4" above the
>>> table surface in order to clear blade on initial pass through.
>>
>> That "problem" is not unique to Grizzly saws.
>>
>> --
>> Free bad advice available here.
>> To reply, eat the taco.
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
>
> Lower the blade completely. Lift up your standard insert slightly, then
> bring the fence over so it contacts the insert. Drop the insert back in
> place. Now place your new, soon-to-be ZCI on top of the standard insert
> and butting against the fence. Clamp a block to the fence over the ZCI
> and another in front of it. You can now raise the blade up through the
> standard insert and your new ZCI. If youv'e made multiple ZCI blanks,
> t's now a good time to slot those as well.
>
Sounds way better than paying $30-40 a piece! : )
[...snip...]
>If I was in the market for a reasonably priced 10" cabinet saw, I certainly
>wouldn't have any qualms about considering Grizzly:
>
>http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-Heavy-Duty-Cabinet-Table-Saw-With-Riving-Knife/G0651
>http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-3HP-220V-Cabinet-Table-Saw-with-Long-Rails-Riving-Knife/G0691
>
>If anybody here owns either of those machines, I'd certainly like to hear some
>reviews. Both machines have riving knives (as does the General), and that
>would be a requirement at the very top of my list.
I don't own either, but there's been a lot of chatter on Lumberjocks
and other forums about these and other saws, so do a google search.
Generally the chatter has been very favorable for the Grizzly saws,
but the same can be said for most any real cabinet saw.
I don't get exactly why the G0651 is $2125 and the G0691 is $1425. The
shipping weight on the G091 is more than the G0651, so I doubt the
price difference is heavier trunnions or anything like that.
The riving knife on the G0651 has a quick release feature, the G0691
requires more fiddling to get it on/off.
On 3/21/2012 8:22 AM, RonB wrote:
> On Mar 21, 7:04 am, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>> For what ever reason, Delta is not what it used to be, not even compared
>> to two years ago.
>>
>> Bought and sold again one year ago and is now owned by Chang Type
>> Industrial Co. Delta completely moved its facility, hired new staff,
>> and retooled. Their goal last year was to build 300 Unisaws 6 months
>> after being sold and moved. This might explain why parts were hard to
>> come by last year and why you seldom see a new Unisaw, that is an
>> average of one new Unisaw per state per month.
>>
>> Delta is not a giant any more.
>> The new U.S. office headquarters and manufacturing facility in Anderson
>> NC is only 56,000 sq feet. The offices will take up 6,000 sq feet. The
>> fabrication and manufacturing takes place in a building that that would
>> fit on a 200'x 250' rectangle.
>>
>> The good news is that the Unisaw is being built in the US and those
>> machines that were being built in the old facility will be built in the
>> new facility.
>>
>> http://www.woodworkersjournal.com/Ezine/Articles/Delta_to_Become_Inde...
>>
>> http://www.woodworkersjournal.com/Ezine/Articles/New_Delta_Celebrates...
>
> The low production rate might be why the new Unisaw is so hard to lay
> eyes on. The pictures, brochures and reviews look pretty good but
> actually touching on down here in southern Kansas is kinda hard.
>
> I hope they have done more than just "reinvent" the saw. The overall
> appearance, feel and quality of the Unisaw drooped significantly
> during the past 20-30 years. I used one in high school shop. Years
> later (mid to late 70's) I used them in a college level cabinet making
> class. When I started shopping for a cabinet saw 10-12 years ago I
> gravitated toward the new Unisaws and was disappointed. Table finish
> was not as good, crank lock knobs were plastic, etc. Ended up with a
> Grizzly 1023 with reminded me of the old Unisaw. I hope Delta has
> taken the new machine back to old standards.
>
> RonB
From what I understand, Black and Decker, the precious owner was
instrumental in the concept of the New Unisaw design, which is more than
a few years old now. I have seen several of the New Unisaw before Delta
was sold and down sized and it was different but nothing compelled me to
even put it in the consideration category should I buy another. The
local Woodcraft guys point away from the New unit and towards a other
brands considering the much higher cost.
I fear that Delta may one day become what Rockwell has become, a reused
well known brand name.
On 3/22/2012 9:39 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
> "Max"<[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> Your input is appreciated and I have "googled" the issue.
>> There are several individuals posting here (and abpw) whose expertise
>> seems obvious (to me at least).
>> I subscribe to: Fine Woodworking, Woodcraft, Wood, Woodworker's
>> Journal, and American Woodworker and enjoy each magazine.
>> I am persuaded, however, that most of the reviews presented by those
>> publications are somewhat biased toward advertisers (and in some
>> cases, toward their sponsors like Woodcraft and Rockler)
>> Having become reasonably familiar with the type of work in which some
>> of the members of the rec.ww engage, I have come to rely on their
>> judgment more than that of the magazines.
>> By considering my question and the individual who might respond, I
>> believe I can have more information upon which to make a decision
>> regarding a particular purchase.
>> To me, in the above regard, there is never too much information.
>>
>> And a 10" Cabinet Saw is a 10" Cabinet Saw no matter the *size* of the
>> shop in which it is serving.
>> So it seems to me that any 10" Cabinet Saw short of an industrial
>> model should be under consideration.
>> That sort of rules out the Altendorf, SCM, etc.
>> Having narrowed it down to that, I was seeking input.
>> Prior to the discussion I would have completely ruled out a Grizzly
>> but........now..........
>> The saw I have now is a Delta 10" Tilting Arbor saw; a hybrid. It has
>> served me well but does have some shortcomings, chiefly among which is
>> the dust collection.
>> My son wants it. I'm not opposed to letting him have it.
>>
>> Questions have been posed by the previous input:
>> 1. Is a Grizzly (foreign made) better than a Powermatic or Unisaw?
>> 2. What features do others consider most important? (never mind the
>> fence, it can be purchased separately if necessary)
>> I don't dismiss anyone's suggestions.
>>
>> Max
>
> On my Ridgid, the power switch mounts to the fence rail. This is rather
> inconvenient when I'm making a cut and have to shut the saw off in the
> middle of it. A switch that mounts on the body with a wide paddle for a
> knee kick would be nice to have. (There's probably an aftermarket option
> to add just that.)
Is the switch location a bigger problem than not having enough power to
complete the cut?
> I haven't been happy with most blade guards and splitters. The ones I've
> made extensive use of mount far behind the blade and are thus subject to
> free play that can put undesired pressure on the board. Newer saws have
> riving knives mounted directly behind the blade (so they'll move up and
> down with it) and that seems to be a much better solution.
>
> These are two of the things that came up last night as I was sawing.
> Some of the wood wanted to close up on the blade, and one did so so much
> that I had to shut the saw off and back it out of the cut. The
> splitter/riving knife would have prevented the closing of the kerf, while
> being able to access the switch easily would have made shutting the saw
> off much less risky.
If you have a saw with enough hp this is much less of an issue. I have
found however that a splitter can indeed create a situation that would
require you to shut down the saw and repeat the procedure you described.
A splitter prevents the work from pinching the blade if the work closes
back up after the cut. It is not at all unusual for the work to open up
after being cut, the opposite effect. When that happens the piece being
cut becomes trapped between the splitter and the fence. Even with my
cabinet saw and when using a splitter the work will become jammed and
stopping is required.
Solution, buy better wood. ;~(
>
> Puckdropper
On 3/21/2012 10:50 AM, Max wrote:
>
>
> "Lee Michaels" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
>> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote
>>
>>> As much as I despise the lawyer Gass, I'd spring for his saw before
>>> I'd ever buy another Delta product, "Made(with Chinese parts) in USA,
>>> or not.
>>
>> At least he offers a quality product.
>
>> There was a time when tools were built by craftsman for craftsman. You
>> did not make junk. I may be old school, but I have always appreciated
>> a quality product. Apparently those kinds of things are not covered in
>> MBA school.
>
> So, excluding the SawStop, which isn't anywhere on any of my lists, what
> might be considered the "Gold Standard" now in a cabinet saw?
>
> Max
>
>
None that you see at Rockler, Woodcraft, and or you favorite local.
IMHO you need to look at Minimax and Laguna to understand a more
nonsense approach to a machine that will again likely out last you.
There are a few less known brands. Even Laguna is starting to import
from other than Europe so if their saw is looking inexpensive look a bit
farther up their line of machines. IIRC their Platinum series is
probably from Taiwan and probably a great saw but not a "gold standard"
caliber.
I would start here,
http://www.lagunatools.com/tablesaws/TS-Tablesaw-w-o-Scoring