super sharp supplies

DAGS for Granite Surface Plate. I picked one up at an auction (12"x18"
Inspection grade) for $25. Much flatter than any piece or glass, float or
otherwise.

Dave

<Snip>
> > Where did you get that huge glass plate and how much did it cost? I
> > think my local glass store would want something upward of $100 for that
> > plate...
>
> Nearby there is an "antique slash old stuff slash junk shop" and yard full
of
> all kinds of stuff. He charged me $10 for the glass, but it does have a
very
> minor crack, into one side about 1" in from an edge, and a little curled.
I
> would like to find if there is some kinda chemical that seeps in and
solidifies,
> but I do not believe it will continue as lying flat, and gently used. I
could
> have the whole side/edge cut off I suppose. This business is about 100
miles
> north from L. A. CA.
>
> Alex
>
> >
> > -Jonathan Ward
> >
>
>

Lap all you want on the heat sink, if the surface that it mates to isn't
just as flat (doubtful) it won't gain you anything. You're right. the
conductive grease will take care of it. I think this processor lapping
business is about equivalent to the SWR compensated power cords the audio
people are duped into buying, at $900.00 each.

"Jonathan Ward" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> It probably really doesn't matter because you are supposed to
> use thermal grease, which is designed to enable heat transfer between
> two surfaces that aren't perfectly smooth. The unmodified heatsinks that
> come with the retail processor are what you want to use if you don't
> overclock.

I understand your suggestion. I custom make 1/2 sheet kits on a
frequent basis. Obviously, a quarter sheet is a standard sandpaper
size, and it makes for little waste. As mentioned in the site FAQ, if
anyone wants a custom size, all they have to do is drop me an email.

The glass I include is thin, but is intended to be used on top of
another surface (countertop, workbench, table, etc) that is more
sturdy but perhaps not as flat as the glass. This works rather well
in practice, and gives a good combination of accuracy with lowered
expense. Man, a piece of glass like you have would be nice! But a
little steep to ship, eh? :-)

Yes. Typically, lapping a heat sink will provide 2-4 degrees C
improvement at the CPU. this can be significant when overclocking
your computer to push it to the limit.

Thanks for taking a look!

DAve
[email protected]



"AArDvarK" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<JwyUc.9962
$yh.9694@fed1read05>...
> Hi, I took a look and it is really good as an availability. But, I suggest that
> the sheets and glass be at least 1/2 sheet lengthwise, the sharpening needs
> distance beyond 1/4 sheet. Also the glass length to match, and should be
> 1/2" thick, scary sharpening is rougher than lapping a cooling block.
> I think the glass should also have some tacky silicone rubber sprayed onto
> one side, for preventing slipping. It is "ok" if your prices go 2 1/2 times
> higher or so...
>
> My glass is awesome (to me anyway), 18"x18"x-3/4" float glass. It gives
> me the distance and thickness for toughness I need.
>
> I build my own computer when needed, or hardware upgrade time. Does
> lapping the heat sink do something for the heat? Like improve the heat
> transfer quality?
>
> Alex

"AArDvarK" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<JwyUc.9962$yh.9694@fed1read05>...
> Hi, I took a look and it is really good as an availability. But, I suggest that
> the sheets and glass be at least 1/2 sheet lengthwise, the sharpening needs
> distance beyond 1/4 sheet. Also the glass length to match, and should be
> 1/2" thick, scary sharpening is rougher than lapping a cooling block.
> I think the glass should also have some tacky silicone rubber sprayed onto
> one side, for preventing slipping. It is "ok" if your prices go 2 1/2 times
> higher or so...
>
> My glass is awesome (to me anyway), 18"x18"x-3/4" float glass. It gives
> me the distance and thickness for toughness I need.
>
> I build my own computer when needed, or hardware upgrade time. Does
> lapping the heat sink do something for the heat? Like improve the heat
> transfer quality?
>
> Alex


Alex, excellent ideas! I spoke with my glass supplier today, I have
some "full sheet" glass sections on the way in 1/4" thicknesses.
Anything thicker requires a special order and long lead times. If
used with a substrate, I think this would be OK.

I'm kicking around some other ideas as well. You guys have me
thinking a bit. :-)

Dave
[email protected]

"CW" <no adddress@spam free.com> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Lap all you want on the heat sink, if the surface that it mates to isn't
> just as flat (doubtful) it won't gain you anything. You're right. the
> conductive grease will take care of it. I think this processor lapping
> business is about equivalent to the SWR compensated power cords the audio
> people are duped into buying, at $900.00 each.
>


Actually, it DOES help. Typical improvement runs in the 2-4C range,
some more, some less. I don't think I've ever had a customer report
no improvement at all. For most casual computer users, a few degrees
isn't a large enough drop to warrant a great deal of effort. However,
if you 1) operate your computer in a setting where external heat is a
factor, or 2) are pushing your CPU's capabilities such as overclocking
- then lapping may make a big difference.

Also, regarding mating surfaces.... keep in mind that CPUs are
precision manufactured under very tight tolerances. CPU dies and heat
shields are far more likely to be flat and smooth than heat sinks.
You CAN lap a CPU that has a heat shield, and it WILL help improve the
thermal transfer. It WILL void your warranty, though. :-)

Lastly, if you ever remove a heat sink from your CPU, clean it
thoroughly and replace the white silicone goop with something better.
I use Arctic Silver products, but there are plenty of other quality
thermal interface materials available.

Dave
[email protected]

"AArDvarK" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<JwyUc.9962$yh.9694@fed1read05>...
> Hi, I took a look and it is really good as an availability. But, I suggest that
> the sheets and glass be at least 1/2 sheet lengthwise, the sharpening needs
> distance beyond 1/4 sheet. Also the glass length to match, and should be
> 1/2" thick, scary sharpening is rougher than lapping a cooling block.
> I think the glass should also have some tacky silicone rubber sprayed onto
> one side, for preventing slipping. It is "ok" if your prices go 2 1/2 times
> higher or so...
>
> My glass is awesome (to me anyway), 18"x18"x-3/4" float glass. It gives
> me the distance and thickness for toughness I need.
>
> I build my own computer when needed, or hardware upgrade time. Does
> lapping the heat sink do something for the heat? Like improve the heat
> transfer quality?
>
> Alex



Alex, drop me an email if you happen to read this.

Dave
[email protected]

> The theory is that by lapping the heatsink, you have more surface area
> to contact the die of the processor. Only people who overclock generally
> do this. It probably really doesn't matter because you are supposed to
> use thermal grease, which is designed to enable heat transfer between
> two surfaces that aren't perfectly smooth. The unmodified heatsinks that
> come with the retail processor are what you want to use if you don't
> overclock.

Yes, I use Arctic Silver. Mine might be clear anodized, no color but there
are those machining, grinding marks, pretty minor, those hills and valleys
might not be too good for overclockers. I can see why.

> Many people think that the heatsinks that come with the processor are
> not adequate. However, the processor company goes through a lot of
> trouble to make sure adequate heat dissipation occurs. They have
> engineers for that. Without tests, you don't know what you are getting
> from a sexy looking heatsink from a small heatsink company. For all you
> know, they may use artists to design them and not engineers.

That sounds about right, mine is the original h-sink that came with the P4.
I build my own comps when it comes time for a hardware upgrade. Never
overheated yet, even with the recent dust caking I removed! Works well.

> Many people think that the more fins the better. This is not always the
> case because if the gap between the fins is smaller than the boundary
> layer thickness of the hot air mass rising through convection, heat
> dissapation will suffer.

Never knew that!

> Where did you get that huge glass plate and how much did it cost? I
> think my local glass store would want something upward of $100 for that
> plate...

Nearby there is an "antique slash old stuff slash junk shop" and yard full of
all kinds of stuff. He charged me $10 for the glass, but it does have a very
minor crack, into one side about 1" in from an edge, and a little curled. I
would like to find if there is some kinda chemical that seeps in and solidifies,
but I do not believe it will continue as lying flat, and gently used. I could
have the whole side/edge cut off I suppose. This business is about 100 miles
north from L. A. CA.

Alex

>
> -Jonathan Ward
>

"AArDvarK" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:JwyUc.9962
> I build my own computer when needed, or hardware upgrade time. Does
> lapping the heat sink do something for the heat? Like improve the heat
> transfer quality?

I've never heard of it either, but I imaged that a flatter surface means
more contact make's it easier to conduct the heat away. The contact surface
may have some type of coating (e.g. black paint) and lapping it would remove
most of it making the contact more efficient.

> you should be using grease designed to maximize heat
> transfer. I think it's sold as "heat sink grease". To me it
> appears to be silicone, and I've used it before, but truly
> don't know what it is made of.


That's what Arctic Silver is exactly for, only better than the chip thermal
grease you find at radio shack.

Alex

Hi, I took a look and it is really good as an availability. But, I suggest that
the sheets and glass be at least 1/2 sheet lengthwise, the sharpening needs
distance beyond 1/4 sheet. Also the glass length to match, and should be
1/2" thick, scary sharpening is rougher than lapping a cooling block.
I think the glass should also have some tacky silicone rubber sprayed onto
one side, for preventing slipping. It is "ok" if your prices go 2 1/2 times
higher or so...

My glass is awesome (to me anyway), 18"x18"x-3/4" float glass. It gives
me the distance and thickness for toughness I need.

I build my own computer when needed, or hardware upgrade time. Does
lapping the heat sink do something for the heat? Like improve the heat
transfer quality?

Alex

> I wouldn't even try. Between the heat sink and CPU is a material
> that functions as a heat transfer medium. Regardless of how flat
> the heat sink is, that medium will fill any voids to begin w ith.
> Trying to separate the heat sink from cpu can result in damage to the
> CPU. Intel advises not to even consider it, unless you have to
> change one or the other.


Oh I remove that "gunk" before assembly and replace it with Arctic Silver.
It's better stuff for heat transfer.

Alex

[email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Folks -
>
> I have a small internet business where I sell sandpaper lapping kits
> for overclockers in the computer enthusiast circles. Lately, I have
> been noticing some sales traffic from woodworkers, and frankly, I was
> wondering why. And after I traded a couple of emails, I found out -
> lots of folks have been trying out the "super sharp" or "scary sharp"
> method of sharpening and have been getting fine sandpaper supplies
> with me online. I sell sandpaper kits that include paper as fine as
> 10 micron (in the premium paper) or 2500 grit (in standard silicon
> carbide wet-dry). These kits provide my customers with enough to do
> the job but with little waste or extra expense.
>
> There has been enough business that I decided to make a dedicated kit
> just for honing. Here's a copy of the post that will soon be on the
> front page of my site at www.easypckits.com :
>
>

As an FYI, a large woodworking retailer (hint, starts with an 'R')
sells similar 'kits'. For about $6 they have either a course
(220,320,400,600) or fine (800,1200,1500,2000) kit that includes two
4.5"x11" sheets of each grit (peel&stick Klingspor silicone carbide).
The sheet size is just right, at least for me, and peel&stick is a
nice convenience. I do my sharpening on scraps of MDF or melamine
instead of glass (I just toss the scraps when the paper's worn out -
no scraping and cleaning).

Steve

>
> I build my own computer when needed, or hardware upgrade time. Does
> lapping the heat sink do something for the heat? Like improve the heat
> transfer quality?
>
> Alex
>

The theory is that by lapping the heatsink, you have more surface area
to contact the die of the processor. Only people who overclock generally
do this. It probably really doesn't matter because you are supposed to
use thermal grease, which is designed to enable heat transfer between
two surfaces that aren't perfectly smooth. The unmodified heatsinks that
come with the retail processor are what you want to use if you don't
overclock.

Many people think that the heatsinks that come with the processor are
not adequate. However, the processor company goes through a lot of
trouble to make sure adequate heat dissipation occurs. They have
engineers for that. Without tests, you don't know what you are getting
from a sexy looking heatsink from a small heatsink company. For all you
know, they may use artists to design them and not engineers.

Many people think that the more fins the better. This is not always the
case because if the gap between the fins is smaller than the boundary
layer thickness of the hot air mass rising through convection, heat
dissapation will suffer.

Where did you get that huge glass plate and how much did it cost? I
think my local glass store would want something upward of $100 for that
plate...


-Jonathan Ward

"Jonathan Ward" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Where did you get that huge glass plate and how much did it cost? I
> think my local glass store would want something upward of $100 for that
> plate...
>
>
> -Jonathan Ward

try yard sales for dining room tabletops. i recently bought a 6'x4'x3/4"
glass top for $40, and i left them the base.

and for the curious, i make these out of them:
http://glassartists.org/Images/UserImages/Img29093_float2.jpg

Pat wrote:

> Hi Alex,
>
> I wouldn't even try. Between the heat sink and CPU is a material
> that functions as a heat transfer medium. Regardless of how flat
> the heat sink is, that medium will fill any voids to begin with.

But the thermal conductivity of silicone paste is not as high as the thermal
conductivity of copper or aluminum.

> Trying to separate the heat sink from cpu can result in damage to the
> CPU.

Not a reason to not do it, just a reason to be careful. So far I've managed
to avoid damaging a CPU that way.

> Intel advises not to even consider it, unless you have to
> change one or the other.

Where do they advise this?

>
> Pat
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 18:45:26 -0700, "AArDvarK" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>Hi, I took a look and it is really good as an availability. But, I suggest
>>that the sheets and glass be at least 1/2 sheet lengthwise, the sharpening
>>needs distance beyond 1/4 sheet. Also the glass length to match, and
>>should be 1/2" thick, scary sharpening is rougher than lapping a cooling
>>block. I think the glass should also have some tacky silicone rubber
>>sprayed onto one side, for preventing slipping. It is "ok" if your prices
>>go 2 1/2 times higher or so...
>>
>>My glass is awesome (to me anyway), 18"x18"x-3/4" float glass. It gives
>>me the distance and thickness for toughness I need.
>>
>>I build my own computer when needed, or hardware upgrade time. Does
>>lapping the heat sink do something for the heat? Like improve the heat
>>transfer quality?
>>
>>Alex
>>

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

CW wrote:

> Lap all you want on the heat sink, if the surface that it mates to isn't
> just as flat (doubtful) it won't gain you anything.

The overclockers also lap the heat spreader on the CPU. On machines that
expose the surface of the chip, that surface is the substrate side of a
silicon wafer and it's sawed flat to a very high degree of precision.

> You're right. the
> conductive grease will take care of it. I think this processor lapping
> business is about equivalent to the SWR compensated power cords the audio
> people are duped into buying, at $900.00 each.
>
> "Jonathan Ward" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> It probably really doesn't matter because you are supposed to
>> use thermal grease, which is designed to enable heat transfer between
>> two surfaces that aren't perfectly smooth. The unmodified heatsinks that
>> come with the retail processor are what you want to use if you don't
>> overclock.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

> try yard sales for dining room tabletops. i recently bought a 6'x4'x3/4"
> glass top for $40, and i left them the base.
> and for the curious, i make these out of them:
> http://glassartists.org/Images/UserImages/Img29093_float2.jpg
>
>
Admirable work! Beautiful!

Alex

"Charles Spitzer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Jonathan Ward" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > Where did you get that huge glass plate and how much did it cost? I
> > think my local glass store would want something upward of $100 for that
> > plate...
> >
> >
> > -Jonathan Ward
>
> try yard sales for dining room tabletops. i recently bought a 6'x4'x3/4"
> glass top for $40, and i left them the base.
>
> and for the curious, i make these out of them:
> http://glassartists.org/Images/UserImages/Img29093_float2.jpg
>
>

Do I spy slumped glass? Looks really nice. Great work.

Tin Woodsmn

you should be using grease designed to maximize heat
transfer. I think it's sold as "heat sink grease". To me it
appears to be silicone, and I've used it before, but truly
don't know what it is made of.

David

AArDvarK wrote:

> I build my own computer when needed, or hardware upgrade time. Does
> lapping the heat sink do something for the heat? Like improve the heat
> transfer quality?
>
> Alex
>
>

Hi Alex,

I wouldn't even try. Between the heat sink and CPU is a material
that functions as a heat transfer medium. Regardless of how flat
the heat sink is, that medium will fill any voids to begin with.

Trying to separate the heat sink from cpu can result in damage to the
CPU. Intel advises not to even consider it, unless you have to
change one or the other.

Pat






On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 18:45:26 -0700, "AArDvarK" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Hi, I took a look and it is really good as an availability. But, I suggest that
>the sheets and glass be at least 1/2 sheet lengthwise, the sharpening needs
>distance beyond 1/4 sheet. Also the glass length to match, and should be
>1/2" thick, scary sharpening is rougher than lapping a cooling block.
>I think the glass should also have some tacky silicone rubber sprayed onto
>one side, for preventing slipping. It is "ok" if your prices go 2 1/2 times
>higher or so...
>
>My glass is awesome (to me anyway), 18"x18"x-3/4" float glass. It gives
>me the distance and thickness for toughness I need.
>
>I build my own computer when needed, or hardware upgrade time. Does
>lapping the heat sink do something for the heat? Like improve the heat
>transfer quality?
>
>Alex
>

> Alex, drop me an email if you happen to read this.
>
Okay that's done, check it out.
Alex

On 18 Aug 2004 03:17:30 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

> I custom make 1/2 sheet kits on a
>frequent basis. Obviously, a quarter sheet is a standard sandpaper
>size, and it makes for little waste. As mentioned in the site FAQ, if
>anyone wants a custom size, all they have to do is drop me an email.

I like full sheet lapping plates. Gives me lots of room for varying my
stroke.



>
>The glass I include is thin, but is intended to be used on top of
>another surface (countertop, workbench, table, etc) that is more
>sturdy but perhaps not as flat as the glass.

I think you'll find that sharpening steel cutters on glass involves
higher pushing forces than lapping heat sinks. the glass does need to
be thicker (and longer).

you're hitting an underserved market here. there are a few vendors now
supplying lapping kits to the woodworking public, but there's lots of
room for growth. what you do need to do is tailor your product a bit.
for instance, a number of us use a granite or marble tile for the
plate. this has the advantage of being less fragile than glass and
readily available in thicker sizes, and if bought right not really
more expensive. consider that your kit is competing with sharpening
stones that cost on the order of $50.00 each and you will see that
changes to your kit that double or tripple the cost are no impediment
to sales.