How dangerous are lathes?

There's a maxim I've heard: "Never chuck anything on a lathe that you
wouldn't want to get hit in the head by", or something like that. Those
thin faceshields can do a pretty fair job of deflecting/dissipating
most of the energy of a thrown workpiece, but I still wear safety
glasses under my shield. Call me chicken. Tom
Toller wrote:
> I have just finished a bowl turning course; my first lathe work. The
> instructor is very casual about safety; he says that is reasonable, since no
> one ever get hurt on a lathe. I wonder how true that is.
>
> I read through the website on woodworking injuries, and there aren't many
> lathe injuries reported. The main problem seems to be the work breaking
> apart at high speeds. Does that happen much?
> A number of people recommended full face shields. I have one, but it is
> pretty thin flexible plastic; I don't expect it would help much against a
> high speed chunk of wood. I looked up a few websites (amazon, hartsville,
> woodcraft) and they just sell ones like mine, except mine has a metal frame.
> Is there something better, or is it strong enough?
>
> I am the only person wearing a dust mask, and it gets pretty dirty after a
> few hours.

Toller, head on over to rec.crafts.woodturning and check out the
group. More than you could imagine about woodturning over there, and
some really stellar turners. Many are very generous with their time
and ideas and some have gotten to be friends (the kind that drink
coffee!) over the years. Lots of talk about injuries from time to
time; some serious, and some just scare the crap out of you.

I turn a lot on Jet minis, and when I get going on a turning jag, I
might turn for a few hours a day, 5 days a week. This nonsense has
been going on for several years. Two years ago I was deep hollowing
(yup.. entire possible on a Jet mini) when my bowl gouge caught on a
twisty piece of grain I had uncovered by peeling away the insides of
the vessel. It rolled the gouge over and smashed my finger so hard I
thought it was broken. It turned kinda black and hurt like hell, but
that was it. My wrist was sore for about a week.

Flying wood has shot off the lathe (for different reasons) at such
great velocity that it has left the lathe and embedded in the garage
wall. I have had smaller pieces leap to their freedom (only to find
themselves in the burn pile) and not hit the deck for about 15 feet.
According the the spinners on that group, you can achieve aboutg 70 mph
of velocity under the right conditions, and the have the math to prove
it. I believe them.

So how would your instructor react to being hit in his unprotected face
with a piece of rough, spinning wood weighing a few POUNDS going 70
mph? If you persue this, you should join local club. They will help
you keep straight.

Always wear a dust mask, even a paper N95 is better than nothing. You
will be standing right over your work all the time breathing wood dust.
Always wear a full face mask. The ONLY time I wear goggles is when it
is my turn to demo, or if I am teaching. No other time.

And as far as no one getting hurt... click the link in the message
below and see what you think. Many thanks to Owen Lowe, who tracked
this down for us.

Robert

************************************************************

Owen Lowe


Northwest Woodturners
Pacific Northwest Woodturning Guild
___
Tips fer Turnin': Place a sign, easily seen as you switch on your
lathe, warning you to remove any and all rings from your fingers.
Called degloving, extended hardware can grab your ring and rip it off
your finger. A pic for the strong of stomach:
<www.itim.nsw.gov.au/go/objectid/2A3AC703-1321-1C29-70B067DC88E16BFC/i...>

Just a follow up. The pic didn't happen while a guy was turning, but
stories abound in the spinning community of things like that. No
watches, rings or hair should be hovering around an object spinning at
5000 rpms.

I can be breathtaking to just freehand a tool into something like
that... imagine getting caught...

Ouch!

Robert

Lew Hodgett wrote:
> RE: Face Shield
>
> I've got the one you see Norm wearing.
>
> North KHG5001, $15.84 as shown in Grainger CAT 394. (An old CAT)
>
> Add about 10-15% to be safe.
>
> Lew

And as far as dust masks go, I wear these a lot, from many different
manufacturers, but all made for people leaning over an ugly cesspool of
germs and ground, powdered bone and amalgam.

http://tinyurl.com/yhu4e6

At 7 cents each, there really isn't much of an excuse for not wearing
them.

Sometimes I wear 3 or 4 a day, so I buy them 200 at a time. Almost all
of those guys on Ebay have lot of those masks so just contact them and
ask for more at the same price.

If you like those, get the ones that have ear loops, and make sure they
have a wire nose clip. I have found that they are not nearly as hot as
my 3m dustmasks that I buy for the guys.

Robert

Toller wrote:

> I have just finished a bowl turning course; my first lathe work. The
> instructor is very casual about safety; he says that is reasonable, since no
> one ever get hurt on a lathe. I wonder how true that is.

Lathes have a good safety record, which probably has more to do with
how _many_ accidents they have, not how few.

Lathes have lots of accidents, particularly with beginners. They're
_small_ accidents though (in general), so no-one gets hurt. It does
encourage a good attitude to safety though, certainly compared to most
other woodworking machines.

People using jointers, planers and spindles have a cavalier attitude to
safety because they've never seen one of these rare accidents and they
take an "It'll never happen to me" approach to it. OTOH, there are no
small planer accidents. You ever get caught by one of those and it's
going to be messy...

Lathes are comparatively benign. We've all had catches, we've all had
work fall out of a chuck. Many of us will have been walloped by
something. Few get really hurt by this, but it's the most direct lesson
you can get that if it hits your nose today, it might get you in the
eyes tomorrow. Turners aren't safety nazis, but more of them are
wearing appropriate safety gear, more of the time, than you'll find
with most other machinists.


A consideration of rotational dynamics and Newtonian mechanics is
reassuring, as regards their log-throwing behaviour. A lathe just won't
throw turned cylindrical work at you -- there's no resultant linear
inertia in a rotating cylinder and so it all ever does is drop quietly,
at worst with a bit of pole vaulting if it hits something else. To get
a serious wood-chuck accident, you either need to be turning an
unbalanced piece, or to have something dismantle itself whilst
rotating. So start off slow on those green logs!

Toller wrote:
> I have just finished a bowl turning course; my first lathe work. The
> instructor is very casual about safety; he says that is reasonable, since no
> one ever get hurt on a lathe. I wonder how true that is.

You're kidding right? In HS metal shop I was standing right next to a
kid wearing a long sleeve sweater working on a lathe. Sweater got
caught on the work and ripped completely off his body before he or I
could hit the red button.

Luckily no major injury, bruises and brush burns from the fabric, but
could have been much worse. He did have to indure the humilitaion of
having his sweater stapled to the bulletin board in the class for the
rest of the year.

The instructor is a jackass and has no business trying to teach anyone
anything.

I don't know what is done in shops or at homes alone, but I have been hit
bit a flying cutting tool that sliced through my arm, and flew across the
room. I was cutting with the ~16" gouge facing away from me at the time.



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>
> The instructor is a jackass and has no business trying to teach anyone
> anything
>

I could not have said it better.

Accidents, when they happen, are not when you start worrying about
protection.

About a decade ago, a high school student was turning when a bowl let
loose and hit him in the head....today he is ten years older and still
a vegetable.

All lathes were removed from neighboring public schools because of this
incident...I have one sitting in my shop.

Others have done an excellent job of covering the safety concerns and
equipment that you need to have.

Use the safety equipment, practice good safety measures and enjoy
turning...and teach anyone else you know that safety does count.

TMT


RayV wrote:
> Toller wrote:
> > I have just finished a bowl turning course; my first lathe work. The
> > instructor is very casual about safety; he says that is reasonable, since no
> > one ever get hurt on a lathe. I wonder how true that is.
>
> You're kidding right? In HS metal shop I was standing right next to a
> kid wearing a long sleeve sweater working on a lathe. Sweater got
> caught on the work and ripped completely off his body before he or I
> could hit the red button.
>
> Luckily no major injury, bruises and brush burns from the fabric, but
> could have been much worse. He did have to indure the humilitaion of
> having his sweater stapled to the bulletin board in the class for the
> rest of the year.
>
> The instructor is a jackass and has no business trying to teach anyone
> anything.

Toller wrote:
> I have just finished a bowl turning course; my first lathe work. The
> instructor is very casual about safety; he says that is reasonable, since no
> one ever get hurt on a lathe. I wonder how true that is.
>
Is he nuts?

r

Nova wrote:
> one ever get hurt on a lathe. I wonder how true that is.
>
> I had to get six stitches in my lower lip after a piece broke off at
> lathe, bounced off the ways and hit me under the face shield.
>
> When I was in grade school a friend of mine was killed by a piece of
> stock that broke off a face plate and impaled him in the forehead.

Let's take a hunk of material, spin it at great speed, and poke a metal
stabber at it.
What could possibly go wrong?

I think Nova posted the answer.

I am willing to go out on a limb and venture a guess that stupid people
are more likely to get hurt than those who use their brains.
I could be wrong.
Lathes are dangerous. Period. (Commercial ones are usually behind metal
cages.)

r

Doug Miller wrote:

> Well, dust isn't much of an issue at the lathe except while sanding (when it's
> a *major* issue)... but eye protection is mandatory. Safety glasses are a bare
> minimum; turners with good sense use full face shields.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
>
> It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

It's always a problem for me. I seem to turn the woods that have thick
bark raided from different places as well different glued exotics I
cobble together.

The bark of mesquite comes off in clouds when you hit a punky area.
Molds? Spores? Fungus? I am sure they are all present along with the
requisite amount of fine dirt that a mesquite will collect in that
rough bark in the windy, dusty areas it grows best.

I personally am scared of the exotics and take great care aound them.
I have had some bad skin rashes caused by exotics, so I can only
imagine what that might do to my throat, lungs and sinus cavities.

And come on Doug.... you mean you don't get those fine wisps that hang
in the air from a properly sharpened scraper or a bowl gouge turned
with the flutes parallel to the cut surface?

Just kiddin'.

Actually.... I only did the bowl gouge thing once while I was being
supervised by a guest turner that uses his bowl gouge for everything.
I can do it with a scraper with a fresh edge anytime. Those wisps are
close enough to dust for me. I have tried the "Dust BeeGone" mask and
liked it, but I really like the good seal of those masks and a change
to a fresh, clean mask (not full of sweat and grime) after turning for
a couple of hours. Also, I didn't like washing it out after I used
it.

I use the booger/mucous test on those dental masks, and they do quite
well. The test of course is in the hot shower after the debris is
cleaned up. Without going into details, they passed with flying
colors.

Robert

George wrote:

SNIP

>Perhaps what he meant to say is "no reason for a thinking man to get hurt=
at the lathe"?


Aww... here we go. It took a while for it to get here, but finally the
inner SawStop has come out from someone.

If you are intelligent enough to think about what you are doing, you
won't get hurt. So what does that mean in your world? The flip side
of your hypothesis is the people that should expect to get hurt are the
ones that won't think, can't think, aren't able to think, or don't know
how to think? Only non-thinkers get hurt at the lathe?

So accidents don't happen, much less bad accidents don't happen to
those that think. All you have to do is "thinking man" and you have
"no reason" to worry about being hurt while using the lathe.

Yeah, right.


>From Webster's:


Main Entry: ac=B7ci=B7dent
Pronunciation: 'ak-s&-d&nt, -"dent; 'aks-d&nt
Function: noun

1 a : an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance b : lack of
intention or necessity : CHANCE <met by accident rather than by design>


So... can you think your way throught the unforseen? Obviously you
don't believe accidents exist, perhaps only in a word.

What a load.

Robert

[email protected] wrote:
> George wrote:
>
> SNIP
>
> >Perhaps what he meant to say is "no reason for a thinking man to get hurt at the lathe"?
>
>
> Aww... here we go. It took a while for it to get here, but finally the
> inner SawStop has come out from someone.
[schnipfered to brevitize]
> So... can you think your way throught the unforseen? Obviously you
> don't believe accidents exist, perhaps only in a word.
>

Mmmmmm....here's my take on that.
Somebody who doesn't use his head and makes a stupid move is more
likely to get hurt than somebody who does use his head and makes
smarter/safer/more thought-out moves.
One is more vulnerable than the other.
One is more likely to get hurt.
Neither will have immunity from a random series of events which lead to
an unforseen event resulting in an accident.
But if I had to place a bet? My money would be on the brighter of the
two.
Smart people can make mistakes too......or so I'm told.

<G>

r

Robatoy wrote:

> Mmmmmm....here's my take on that.
> Somebody who doesn't use his head and makes a stupid move is more
> likely to get hurt than somebody who does use his head and makes
> smarter/safer/more thought-out moves.
> One is more vulnerable than the other.
> One is more likely to get hurt.
> Neither will have immunity from a random series of events which lead to
> an unforseen event resulting in an accident.
> But if I had to place a bet? My money would be on the brighter of the
> two.
> Smart people can make mistakes too......or so I'm told.
>

I couldn't agree more with your thoughts. I think it is a sure bet
that careless distraction is certainly a recipe for accidents. And I
think it stands to reason that a prepared person that is focused on the
task at hand, employing available safety protection is less likely to
SUFFER from the results of an accident. However, no amount of thinking
or planning will prevent or preclude all accidents. By definition that
is why the term exists.

In my experience, it is not carelessness or distraction that causes
accidents. I have found that most DIY and "semi pro" (whatever in the
hell that is) suffer at the hands of their own arrogance and over
confidence. And I couldn't have found a better example if I had
interviewed a hundred people: "no reason for a thinking man to get
hurt at the lathe".

My point was simply that sometimes you do all you can to be a safe as
possible, and there are still events that transpire that you cannot
anticipate. Safety gear and focus are the best ways to keep from
having accidents, and to mitigate the results when you have them.

I have never met anyone (maybe I need to get out more) than can
outsmart an (not even a smart "thinking man") accident by simply
thinking about things.

Robert

[email protected] wrote:
[snip]
> I have never met anyone (maybe I need to get out more) than can
> outsmart an (not even a smart "thinking man") accident by simply
> thinking about things.
>

Yabbut, yabbut...(at the risk of belabouring the point).. doesn't a
thinking man
have an advantage when assessing risk?
Even though I have done a certain routine a bunch of times, I tend to
stop and think and ask myself the following question: "IF this is going
to fark me over, how would it happen?"
That is as natural as ascertaining that I have enough cord to get to
the end of a cut I'm making.
I don't start cutting and then, when 60% through the cut, I run out of
cord...now I have to look at my problem, or try to pull on the
cord...or stop and start things... (I got really close to getting hurt
that way.)... basically losing focus of my activity. It is at times
like that, when shiat tends to happen.

But I think we agree. Working with power tools is no time to be stupid.

Lathes interest me.

r

Robatoy wrote:

> Yabbut, yabbut...(at the risk of belabouring the point).. doesn't a
> thinking man
> have an advantage when assessing risk?
> Even though I have done a certain routine a bunch of times, I tend to
> stop and think and ask myself the following question: "IF this is going
> to fark me over, how would it happen?"

Seeming clear to me, I must be obtuse in my explanation. I think we
are saying the same thing, but maybe not.

>I couldn't agree more with your thoughts. I think it is a sure bet
>that careless distraction is certainly a recipe for accidents. And I
>think it stands to reason that a prepared person that is focused on the
>task at hand, employing available safety protection is less likely to
>SUFFER from the results of an accident. However, no amount of thinking
>or planning will prevent or preclude all accidents. By definition that
>is why the term exists.

An accident is an uplanned event. When I said " I think it is a sure
bet
that careless distraction is certainly a recipe for accidents", I meant
that someone that is not paying attention to what they are doing is
more likely to have an accident.

But in my mind, someone that isn't paying attention to what they are
doing (especially when using any kind of tool) is careless. An injury
due to wandering, unfocused mind (distracted?) is an injury due to
carelessness. Maybe from negligent stupidity, maybe just from not
paying attention to what you are doing. If injury happens in those
circumstances, it is not an accident at all, but careless stupidity.
It is injury due to dumbass, of which I have suffered my share.


>My point was simply that sometimes you do all you can to be a safe as possible, and there are >still events that transpire that you cannot anticipate. Safety gear and focus are the best ways >to keep from having accidents, and to mitigate the results when you have them.

I was agreeing with you, again by saying "sometimes you do all you
can". An idiot doesn't care. A lazy ass won't try or care. Someone
that doesn't think won't wear any safety protection. Only someone
that thinks about the consequences that occur if there is a moment in
the Bahamas while using a tool, or someone that has had an actual
accident will wear protection.

Pertaining to the lathe, we have had numerous injuries reported while
using them, mostly due to improper tool use/bad technique, the wrong
tool for the job, or carelessness. That probably takes in 95% of all
the injuries. These are injuries (not intentional) due to dumbass.

However, we have also had 3 or 4 broken scrapers (Crown, I think) that
shot broken steel out, but only nicked one of the guys. I was turning
a very carefully inspected golf ball sized piece of wood at about 4000
between centers, and the piece loosed a quarter sized piece of wood
(NOT on the end I was working on) that whacked me in the forehead just
above the googles. I had a pretty nasty dent in my head and it bled
like hell. I thought as expressed here that all runaway chunks or
chips had to go away from the turner when using the lathe.... I had
heard that was rule. We even had a really experienced turner in my
group that had a bowl gouge break and had one large piece fly off and
bounce around unitl it just whacked him in the chest (it was Sorby -
cheerfully replaced by Woodcraft). Bowls that break into pieces from
UNSEEN defects, chunks of unseen knots or occlisions can take flight.

If you are 100% focused on what you are doing, if you check and cannot
see potential problems with the task you are going to perform, if you
use the right tool for the right job, if you use the right material for
the job, if you use the right techniques and methods for the task at
hand AND you still are injured without being negligent to due diligence
of your own safety, that is an accident.

Now, was that clear as mud and twice as thick? ;^)

It's just my opinion anyway. In our society today, it is never really
our fault. We are all victims of something. I see people do the most
assinine things and scream about how they had an accident. Because
they didn't anticipate they would pay the price for carelessness, in
their minds, that makes it an accident. Injury by dumbass, says I.

Robert

IOW you may want leather around your mid-section too

"bent" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I don't know what is done in shops or at homes alone, but I have been hit
>bit a flying cutting tool that sliced through my arm, and flew across the
>room. I was cutting with the ~16" gouge facing away from me at the time.
>
>
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> Newsgroups
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[email protected] wrote:

> If you are 100% focused on what you are doing, if you check and cannot
> see potential problems with the task you are going to perform, if you
> use the right tool for the right job, if you use the right material for
> the job, if you use the right techniques and methods for the task at
> hand AND you still are injured without being negligent to due diligence
> of your own safety, that is an accident.

We are on the same page. (CRINGE, I hate that over-used phrase..)
Dumbasses and lazy farks take chances.
If I rip down some cobwebs from the dusty caverns of my memory banks, I
seem to remember
that on the Space Shuttle there are 900+ 'criticality #1' items that on
launch if ONE of them fails.....Kaboom! The other Kabooms that happen,
is when people become careless and arrogant and go beyond what is
considered safe---> taking a chance. Nobody has control of
100.00000000% of all parameters.. and that includes a small tectonic
plate shuffle which will make your gouge go a LITTLE BITTY bit too far
into the bowl. Them's accidents.


> Now, was that clear as mud and twice as thick? ;^)

'Twas, actually. Thanks for taking the time to respond in such detail.

>
> Because
> they didn't anticipate they would pay the price for carelessness, in
> their minds, that makes it an accident. Injury by dumbass, says I.

Yup. Indeed. When you have seen somebody about to do something
dangerous and stupid...did you ever fill your lungs with extra air, so
that you could express a warning "EXTRA loud", just to realize, that a
yell would only startle the stupid fark and make things worse?

I call them 'headshakers'.

r

On Dec 1, 3:49 pm, "Mark Jerde" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > We are on the same page. (CRINGE, I hate that over-used phrase..)After that Mark Foley thing I don't use this cliche anymore... ;-)

Why don't congressmen no longer use bookmarks?
They just bend over a page.

Doug Miller wrote:

> Again -- the velocity of a falling object is completely independent of its
> mass.

Not at all - the velocity of _freely_ falling objects is independent of
mass, but lathe turnings aren't usually freely falling -- they're
spinning objects in passing contact with some fixed point that can
impart a force to them. If they're balanced and they fall free from the
chuck then it's no problem - if they catch on the way down, it can get
hairy.

(PS Toller - if you're going to post trivial equations, at least get a
schoolkid to check them first)

Others have expressed themselves quite succinctly regarding the sagacity
of your instructor and I fully concur with them.

But let me add a short note on lung protection.

I have a shop-built air cleaner that I calculate (back of the lunch bag
numbers) filters my shop air roughly 3 times a minute. Yeah ... that's a
pretty noticeable breeze! I have a stack of three filters. The first is
a normal 79 cent furnace filter that grabs stuff that would have settled
out of the air if I weren't stirring it up so much. The second, a 5
micron filter, gets the air clean-looking ... that is, if it was the
final filter, I'd be fooled into thinking that my air was clean. The
third filter is rated to pass nothing bigger then 0.3 microns. Thats
smaller than dust. Smaller than bacteria. Smaller, even, than some viruses.

With that much air filtration, you'd think that dirty air would be the
least of my concerns, eh?

But I still wear a 1/2 mask respirator (~$26 at Harbor Freight) because
I am closer to where the dust is generated than the filter is ... so my
lungs get first dibs on it.

There is an older carpenter that I know. He provided well for his family
and retired with a workshop bigger than my house and yard combined. But
he never wore so much as a dust mask.

He's doing well to get 2 or 3 words out between coughs.

Lathe work generates a lot of dust to go with the shavings.
You do the math.

Bill

--
Political Correctness relies on the presumption that it is possible to
pick up a turd by the clean end. -- Me, 2006

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>> RE: Face Shield
>>
>> I've got the one you see Norm wearing.
>>
>> North KHG5001, $15.84 as shown in Grainger CAT 394. (An old CAT)
>>
>> Add about 10-15% to be safe.
>>
>> Lew
>
> And as far as dust masks go, I wear these a lot, from many different
> manufacturers, but all made for people leaning over an ugly cesspool of
> germs and ground, powdered bone and amalgam.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yhu4e6
>
> At 7 cents each, there really isn't much of an excuse for not wearing
> them.
>
> Sometimes I wear 3 or 4 a day, so I buy them 200 at a time. Almost all
> of those guys on Ebay have lot of those masks so just contact them and
> ask for more at the same price.
>
> If you like those, get the ones that have ear loops, and make sure they
> have a wire nose clip. I have found that they are not nearly as hot as
> my 3m dustmasks that I buy for the guys.
>
> Robert
>

Those masks are designed to keep "germs" from leaving the mask. not sure how
effective they are at keeping dust particles from entering.

[email protected] wrote:

> Sometimes I wear 3 or 4 a day, so I buy them 200 at a time.=A0=A0Almo=
st=A0all
> of those guys on Ebay have lot of those masks so just contact them an=
d
> ask for more at the same price.

Try the "DustBeGone" mask. It's a little spendy, but it'll be the last=
dust
mask you'll ever buy. I've had mine for 12-15 years and it still works=
fine.=20
Also, it won't fog my glasses, doesn't warm my face as much as the pape=
r
masks, and is easier to breath through. The last two comments are of c=
ourse
my subjective experience, but every other user I've talked to says the =
same
thing.

No, I have no interest in the company :-).

--=20
It's turtles, all the way down

Locutus wrote:

>
> Those masks are designed to keep "germs" from leaving the mask. not sure how
> effective they are at keeping dust particles from entering.
>
>

I've never seen a paper mask that didn't have gaps at the edge that are
plainly visible.

Bill

badger.badger wrote:

>> Of course, any helpful tips on eliminating that static charge would
>> probably convince me to use the sucker at all times.

RainX ?
--

Sometime they'll give a war and nobody will come.

Carl Sandburg (1878 - 1967), The People, Yes (1936)

Wed, Nov 29, 2006, 4:46am (EST+5) [email protected] (Toller) doth
tentatively state:
I have just finished a bowl turning course; <snip>

Sounds like your instructor is an idiot.

You should be asking woodturning questions at
news:rec.crafts.woodturning instead of here.

I wear a face shield. It's better than nothing if a piece lets
loose, and it keeps the small bits off your face and out of your eyes.
I wear a dust mask too, because it's dusty.



JOAT
Democratic justice. One man, one rock.

"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> I don't mean to suggest that lathes are vicious, murderous tools, lurking
in
> the corner of the shop waiting to leap upon some unsuspecting rookie
turner
> and strangle him, but, like *any* power tool, they do have the potential
to
> cause serious injury.

Is this where we start talking about the new LatheStop on the market and the
200 pounds of shielding around the piece of wood being turned to prevent it
from flying off the spindle and impaling someone in the forehead? Of course,
maybe it might be more prudent to invest in the BodyStop personal armour.
:)

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>> RE: Face Shield
>>
>> I've got the one you see Norm wearing.
>>
>> North KHG5001, $15.84 as shown in Grainger CAT 394. (An old CAT)
>>
>> Add about 10-15% to be safe.
>>
>> Lew
>
> And as far as dust masks go, I wear these a lot, from many different
> manufacturers, but all made for people leaning over an ugly cesspool of
> germs and ground, powdered bone and amalgam.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yhu4e6
>
> At 7 cents each, there really isn't much of an excuse for not wearing
> them.
>
> Sometimes I wear 3 or 4 a day, so I buy them 200 at a time. Almost all
> of those guys on Ebay have lot of those masks so just contact them and
> ask for more at the same price.
>
> If you like those, get the ones that have ear loops, and make sure they
> have a wire nose clip. I have found that they are not nearly as hot as
> my 3m dustmasks that I buy for the guys.
>
That is what I have been using also. Rather more comfortable than the
plastic ones with replaceable filters.

Toller wrote:
>
> I have just finished a bowl turning course; my first lathe work.

Generally that's a good idea -

> The
> instructor is very casual about safety; he says that is reasonable, since no
> one ever get hurt on a lathe.

- unless the instructor is dangerous. Sounds like yours was.

> I wonder how true that is.

You're holding a sharp tool, applying it to a spinning piece of
wood of uncertain soundness, turned by a quarter horse to
a horse and a half and you've probably got chips of wood
or ribbons of wood flying around. That's if the piece of wood
starts out balanced and you've got the rpms below where things
start to vibrate or rock around. Does this sound like a place
to be careless and assume you're completely safe, no matter
what you do?

> I read through the website on woodworking injuries, and there aren't many
> lathe injuries reported.

Check to obituaries. Look for man killed from blunt trauma - may
include unexplained discovery of large chunk of wood on the dented
hood of the car in the driveway and the mysterious hole in the garage
roof.

> The main problem seems to be the work breaking
> apart at high speeds.

Haven't turned above 1200 rpms so I have no personal experience

> Does that happen much?

> A number of people recommended full face shields. I have one, but it is
> pretty thin flexible plastic; I don't expect it would help much against a
> high speed chunk of wood. I looked up a few websites (amazon, hartsville,
> woodcraft) and they just sell ones like mine, except mine has a metal frame.
> Is there something better, or is it strong enough?

Probably lexan or other polycarbonate - pretty unbreakable unlike
regular plastic. Protects your eyes from flying wood chips and
could distribute the force or a larger flying piece of wood.

I don't use a face shield often but that's because I've got a mini/
midi lathe (JET) and my glasses are polycarb. A face shield if
you don't want to wear safety glasses would be a good idea.
Getting a chip out of your eye ain't always easy.

> I am the only person wearing a dust mask, and it gets pretty dirty after a
> few hours.

Maybe, but the smart one, unlike myself.

charlie b

> Toller wrote:
>
> > I have just finished a bowl turning course; my first lathe work. The
> > instructor is very casual about safety; he says that is reasonable,
> since no
> > one ever get hurt on a lathe. I wonder how true that is.

I agree, the guy is a dickhead! I have been using metal and wood lathes
since I was 15, (now 55) and I can remember one poor chap at work getting a
piece of wood that broke off stuck in his forehead! very nasty.. You should
all ways work with great respect for machinery, accidents can and will
happen if you don't.
Eddie.

Prometheus <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:


> You know, that makes me wonder about something I had forgotten about-
>
> In a high school woodshop I saw during a voc. school class a couple of
> years ago, all of the lathes had lexan hoods over them that could be
> flipped back if needed. Why isn't that standard equipment? Granted,
> many of them would probably be removed and go in the corner next to
> the table saw guard, but it seems like a good thing to have on when
> roughing wood with bark still on it or with uncertain chucking.

It sounds like its negative of reduced access won't impede lathe use much
and could potentially save you from injury once or twice. It's not like
some of those safety guards they put on things (bench grinder) that do
nothing but get in the way.

Puckdropper

--
Wise is the man who attempts to answer his question before asking it.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Is this where we start talking about the new LatheStop on the market

*snip*

I think (but don't quote me on this) that a chuck set sufficiently high
to allow materials to turn on the lathe while still slipping if the
average human resisted could be employed to prevent loose
clothing/wrapping type injuries.

Puckropper
--
Wise is the man who attempts to answer his question before asking it.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

In article <[email protected]>, "George" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Eyes are very vulnerable and deserve protection.

True -- but they are not the only parts of your face that should be protected.
Teeth, for example...

>Face shields are often
>more trouble in distortion, distraction and discomfort than they're worth,
>especially when the above procedures are followed.

It does not appear that you have much, if any, experience in wearing face
shields. Mine gives *no* problems with distortion or distraction -- and
comfort is one of the reasons I prefer it to goggles. Vision is so clear, and
the shield so lightweight and comfortable, that I often forget it's there,
even to the point of banging my knuckles on it when I reach up to scratch my
nose. In addition to being more comfortable than goggles, it also takes less
time to don or doff -- which means I'm *much* more likely to use it, as
there's really no excuse at all for not wearing it. The one downside I've
experienced with a face shield is the importance of remembering to flip it up
when I feel a sneeze coming on. :-b

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Neither will have immunity from a random series of events which lead to
> an unforseen event resulting in an accident.

Seems like my random series of events just about always involves a bowl
with a hidden weakness. After that, things are moving so quickly I suspect
physics may have taken over.

"Toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I have just finished a bowl turning course; my first lathe work. The
>instructor is very casual about safety; he says that is reasonable, since
>no one ever get hurt on a lathe. I wonder how true that is.
>

Also, the absence of accidents does not indicate the presence of safety.

Your instructor needs to have someone tatoo that to his forehead.

On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 12:49:04 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, "George" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Eyes are very vulnerable and deserve protection.
>
>True -- but they are not the only parts of your face that should be protected.
>Teeth, for example...
>
>>Face shields are often
>>more trouble in distortion, distraction and discomfort than they're worth,
>>especially when the above procedures are followed.
>
>It does not appear that you have much, if any, experience in wearing face
>shields. Mine gives *no* problems with distortion or distraction -- and
>comfort is one of the reasons I prefer it to goggles. Vision is so clear, and
>the shield so lightweight and comfortable, that I often forget it's there,
>even to the point of banging my knuckles on it when I reach up to scratch my
>nose. In addition to being more comfortable than goggles, it also takes less
>time to don or doff -- which means I'm *much* more likely to use it, as
>there's really no excuse at all for not wearing it. The one downside I've
>experienced with a face shield is the importance of remembering to flip it up
>when I feel a sneeze coming on. :-b

I've got one that is clear, lightweight and comfortable, but it builds
up so much static electricity that is sucks every bit of dust it can
hold migrates to it immediately, and make it hard to see. So, I hedge
my bets a little, and use it when I have any suspicions that what I'm
doing might come loose or break apart. I always wear it for doing
anything with metal, especially after I looked at the stick I used to
true the first disk I tried spinning- getting hit with that would be
about as nice as trying to catch a circular saw blade tossed like a
frisbee with your teeth. For things like roughing between centers, I
don't get too worked up about it.

Of course, any helpful tips on eliminating that static charge would
probably convince me to use the sucker at all times.

In article <[email protected]>, "Andy Dingley <[email protected]>" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Doug Miller wrote:
>
>> Again -- the velocity of a falling object is completely independent of its
>> mass.
>
>Not at all

What do you mean, "not at all"? That was demonstrated by Galileo about five
hundred years ago.

>- the velocity of _freely_ falling objects is independent of
>mass, but lathe turnings aren't usually freely falling --

They are the moment they come loose from the lathe, which is the issue at
hand. As long as they stay attached, they are not falling objects, and
therefore not relevant to the discussion.

>they're
>spinning objects in passing contact with some fixed point that can
>impart a force to them.

Yes, and that's one of the points I was making -- the force imparted to them
by the lathe is, in most circumstances, of greater magnitude than that
imparted by gravity.

> If they're balanced and they fall free from the
>chuck then it's no problem - if they catch on the way down, it can get
>hairy.

If balanced, sure -- but what if something *breaks*? Then, it's no longer
balanced -- and the direction that broken-off piece moves depends on the
direction it was moving when it came free, and has *nothing* to do with its
mass.

Also note that a perfectly balanced lightweight piece that simply comes loose
will drop straight down, too, just like a perfectly balanced heavy one that
simply comes loose.

The behavior of falling objects in a gravity field is completely independent
of their mass (except to the extent that objects with very low *density* will
fall more slowly due to aerodynamic effects). In vacuum, a feather and a stone
fall at the same rate -- and even in air, there is no difference discenible
without the use of laboratory equipment between the velocity of falling stones
of, say, 1 kg and 10 kg, when dropped from the same height.

Whether a chunk of wood that comes loose from a lathe goes up, down, or
sideways has NOTHING to do with its mass.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, Prometheus
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>It's strong enough- unless you're doing something really crazy, like
>>turning wood with live ammunition in it. Think about it for a minute-
>>the rotational force of the piece isn't the only thing that affects
>>how it's going to fly off if something breaks or is not held
>>correctly. Gravity has it's say as well- and from previous exerience
>>when I got my first chuck, anything that could possibly be heavy
>>enough to break the sheild drops just as fast or faster than it is
>>moving towards you.
>
> The laws of physics dictate quite the opposite, in fact. To begin with,
> the
> mass of an object has absolutely nothing to do with how fast it falls (as
> was
> famously demonstrated by Galileo some five centuries ago).
>
>> Most heavy things will fall fast, then roll along
>>the floor- not shoot at you like a cannonball.
>
> Again -- the velocity of a falling object is completely independent of its
> mass.
>
> Which direction it goes depends mostly on which direction it's moving when
> it
> comes loose (e.g. on the back side of the work, moving upward -- it's
> gonna
> launch!); at even modest rotational speeds, the velocity of the
> circumference
> of a large workpiece exceeds anything that would be imparted by gravity in
> the
> very short distance between spindle or faceplate and the shop floor.
>
> Example: 10-in diameter workpiece rotating at 500 rpm; lathe center at 42"
> above the floor.
>
> The edge of the workpiece is moving at (10 pi * 500) inches per minute =
> almost 22 feet per second -- but an object falling only 42" doesn't attain
> a
> velocity of quite 15 fps before it hits the floor.
>
Your physics is certainly correct; gravity only has a split second to act on
the object, so imparts very little velocity on it. (mv=ft and all that...)
Yet intuitively it seems that things should tend to fall down rather than
up. Yes, I know intuition is wrong half the time, but still...

It has been a very very long time since I did any of this. f from the
rotation is proportionate to the m of the object in question, so the mass
doesn't matter there either.

In article <[email protected]>, "George" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Toller wrote:
>>> I have just finished a bowl turning course; my first lathe work. The
>>> instructor is very casual about safety; he says that is reasonable, since
>>> no
>>> one ever get hurt on a lathe. I wonder how true that is.
>>>
>> Is he nuts?
>
>Probably just experienced.

No, he's nuts -- and *not* experienced, either, if he really thinks that "no
one ever got hurt on a lathe".

>What he doesn't realize that others may not
>follow what he's teaching and the safety that's automatic to him. That can
>mean trouble.

The OP said "the instructor is very casual about safety" -- that doesn't sound
like safety is "automatic" to him; quite the opposite, I'd say, and that
*does* mean trouble.

I don't mean to suggest that lathes are vicious, murderous tools, lurking in
the corner of the shop waiting to leap upon some unsuspecting rookie turner
and strangle him, but, like *any* power tool, they do have the potential to
cause serious injury. To suggest, as the OP's instructor apparently did, that
one need not worry about safety precautions at the lathe because the tool is
inherently harmless, is dangerous and irresponsible.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article <[email protected]>, "Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> I don't mean to suggest that lathes are vicious, murderous tools, lurking
>in
>> the corner of the shop waiting to leap upon some unsuspecting rookie
>turner
>> and strangle him, but, like *any* power tool, they do have the potential
>to
>> cause serious injury.
>
>Is this where we start talking about the new LatheStop on the market and the
>200 pounds of shielding around the piece of wood being turned to prevent it
>from flying off the spindle and impaling someone in the forehead? Of course,
>maybe it might be more prudent to invest in the BodyStop personal armour.
>:)

I think the IdiotStop that somebody suggested in the SawStop thread might be
more appropriate here... starting with Toller's instructor. "Nobody ever got
hurt on a lathe". Sheesh. What an ignoramus.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Robatoy wrote:
>
> We are on the same page. (CRINGE, I hate that over-used phrase..)

So, think out of the box! <G>

George wrote:
> Pretty rare, injuries at a lathe. As far as life-threatening injuries, it's
> safer than walking across the street, certainly. Potential is there for
> the careless to ding themselves, but it's fairly easy to move the ON/OFF
> switch to where you don't have to lean into the disintegration zone to
> activate, reasonable to cut standing outside the zone if you push the tool
> handle. Makes you an unlikely impact point.


I don't live in fear of being killed using a lathe. OTOH, I've lived through
two plane crashes and have a full understanding of the concept of lightning not
always striking the other guy. That being said, there's no point in being
stupid. You do what you can do but there is a point of diminishing return. I
look for the most bang for the buck in concepts of safety. If I don't consider
the return high enough, I'm not likely to bother.


> Cutting doesn't make dust, though sanding certainly does, so makes sense not
> to overload the body's natural defenses and wear something to cut down on
> access. Makes better sense to collect close to the point of generation.
> When that's done well, it's tough to work up a booger even if you don't wear
> a mask.


I have a 1 micron dust collector piped into my big tools and also have an air
cleaner mounted on the ceiling of my garage, uh, I mean workshop. On occasion I
end up out in the driveway with something that produces clouds of dust or chips.
If I do, I wear a respirator. I never need to wear one when I'm cutting boards
at the jointer, band or table saw. The dust collector handles them well enough
to suit me.

Irregardless of what I'm doing, if a cloud of dust exists, I wear the
respirator. But that's the only time I wear it.


--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

In article <[email protected]>, "George" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> The OP said "the instructor is very casual about safety" -- that doesn't
>> sound
>> like safety is "automatic" to him; quite the opposite, I'd say, and that
>> *does* mean trouble.
>>
>
>Possible that the new guy doesn't know enough to recognize what's being
>practiced.

The OP in this case may be new to turning, but he's definitely not new to
woodworking.
>
>You, for instance know nothing about it, but are willing to condemn rather
>than entertain for a moment the chance that your opinion might be in error.

While I wasn't there, and don't have first-hand knowledge, it's certainly not
true that I "know nothing about it" -- I read the OP's post, and know what he
reported. If his report is accurate, and we have no reason to suppose
otherwise, then the instructor is an ass, and a dangerous one at that.

You, OTOH, know no more about it than I do (and quite possibly less, since
your comments leave considerable doubt as to whether you actually read the
original post), yet you are willing to condemn the OP's statements, and assume
that he is unable to recognize safe practices when he sees them -- rather than
entertain for a moment the chance that your opinion might be in error.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Bill in Detroit wrote:
> I've never seen a paper mask that didn't have gaps at the edge that are
> plainly visible.


You need to look at the N95 paper masks. We use them to work around TB
patients. They don't gap around the edges at all.... rather they are shaped and
they have a flexible nose bridge that you squeeze to form a fit.

If they won't let TB in, I doubt they'll let dust in either.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

"RonB" <[email protected]> wrote:

> I have only had one mishap when a pretty large
> piece of stock came out of my machine while turning between centers.
> It happened so quickly I never actually saw it happen. I felt a
> pretty good blow on the top of the shield at about forehead height. I
> looked down and the workstock was cradled between my arm and side.
> The chunk weighed well over a pound so the face shield did its work.
>

Had the same thing with a bowl. Left a dent in the face shield and dazed me
enough that I spent the rest of the day turning channels.

"Puckdropper" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Prometheus <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>
>> You know, that makes me wonder about something I had forgotten about-
>>
>> In a high school woodshop I saw during a voc. school class a couple of
>> years ago, all of the lathes had lexan hoods over them that could be
>> flipped back if needed. Why isn't that standard equipment? Granted,
>> many of them would probably be removed and go in the corner next to
>> the table saw guard, but it seems like a good thing to have on when
>> roughing wood with bark still on it or with uncertain chucking.
>
> It sounds like its negative of reduced access won't impede lathe use much
> and could potentially save you from injury once or twice. It's not like
> some of those safety guards they put on things (bench grinder) that do
> nothing but get in the way.

Lots of lathes used to come with. Ours had Delta's hybrid of wire cage and
plastic windows. Didn't need the cage behind if it was placed up to the
wall, and the arm that mounted it actually got in the way of doing that.
The plastic windows were a static-plagued joke, and would have become worse
had anyone been allowed to finish on the lathe. They were abandoned when
they were so bad they had to be replaced.

Mechanicals dreamed up to attempt to escape liability for poor human
practice, and probably in full knowledge of their ineffectiveness.

One thing I give them is they would protect the passers-by from the lathe
operation. The person using the lathe, of course, had no reason whatsoever
to be in the fragment zone, nor any cause to turn the equipment on until
firm grip was assured on the main piece.

Prometheus wrote:

> I've got one that is clear, lightweight and comfortable, but it builds
> up so much static electricity that is sucks every bit of dust it can
> hold migrates to it immediately, and make it hard to see. So, I hedge
> my bets a little, and use it when I have any suspicions that what I'm
> doing might come loose or break apart. I always wear it for doing
> anything with metal, especially after I looked at the stick I used to
> true the first disk I tried spinning- getting hit with that would be
> about as nice as trying to catch a circular saw blade tossed like a
> frisbee with your teeth. For things like roughing between centers, I
> don't get too worked up about it.
>
> Of course, any helpful tips on eliminating that static charge would
> probably convince me to use the sucker at all times.

Polonium antistatic brush on ioniser?

http://www.amstat.com/solutions/staticmaster.html

Toller wrote:
> I have just finished a bowl turning course; my first lathe work. The
> instructor is very casual about safety; he says that is reasonable, since no
> one ever get hurt on a lathe. I wonder how true that is.


There are occasional injuries. I would worry about the thing catching my
clothes and pulling me in.


> I read through the website on woodworking injuries, and there aren't many
> lathe injuries reported. The main problem seems to be the work breaking
> apart at high speeds. Does that happen much?


I don't think so.


> A number of people recommended full face shields. I have one, but it is
> pretty thin flexible plastic; I don't expect it would help much against a
> high speed chunk of wood. I looked up a few websites (amazon, hartsville,
> woodcraft) and they just sell ones like mine, except mine has a metal frame.
> Is there something better, or is it strong enough?


It's probably OK. Your mask doesn't have to deflect a bullet. It's going to
both deflect and spread an impact out over a larger area, reducing its effect.
It also keeps the crap from flying into your eyes all the time.


> I am the only person wearing a dust mask, and it gets pretty dirty after a
> few hours.


That would be the inside of your lungs otherwise. I wear eye and lung
protection when there's stuff flying around to get me. If it's noisy I wear
hearing protection as well. If I had known way back I was going to live so
long, I'd have taken better care of myself back in the days when I thought I was
bulletproof.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

In article <[email protected]>, "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"RonB" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>> I, like most of the other posters, find it amazing that an instructor
>> would make such a stupid remark. He should be fired.
>>
>Well, he cautioned us against hair and loose clothing, but not a word about
>safety glasses or dust masks.

Well, dust isn't much of an issue at the lathe except while sanding (when it's
a *major* issue)... but eye protection is mandatory. Safety glasses are a bare
minimum; turners with good sense use full face shields.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Bill in Detroit wrote:

> I've never seen a paper mask that didn't have gaps at the edge that
are
> plainly visible.

Check out Moldex, much better than 3M, IMHO.

Lew

"Joe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>I have just finished a bowl turning course; my first lathe work. The
>>instructor is very casual about safety; he says that is reasonable, since
>>no one ever get hurt on a lathe. I wonder how true that is.
>
> I read somewhere that most woodworking power tools can maim you. The
> lathe, however, can kill you.
>
> Seems a reasonable statement if an unbalanced chunk of something starts
> heading toward your noggin.
>
> When you hit that power switch, *don't* be standing in the line of fire.
>

Of course, that starts with "don't be casual about the mount," which many
are, in my opinion. Spur centers in face grain, what do they expect? Some
won't even taper back the ends of the log section before they mount it,
assuring the lathe will be doing the dance of death if they have the speed
too high.

It was a "D" for the day if I caught a kid starting the lathe while in the
throw zone. An "E" if I caught them starting it with someone else in the
throw zone.

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Toller wrote:
>> I have just finished a bowl turning course; my first lathe work. The
>> instructor is very casual about safety; he says that is reasonable, since
>> no
>> one ever get hurt on a lathe. I wonder how true that is.
>>
> Is he nuts?

Probably just experienced. What he doesn't realize that others may not
follow what he's teaching and the safety that's automatic to him. That can
mean trouble.

"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> The OP said "the instructor is very casual about safety" -- that doesn't
> sound
> like safety is "automatic" to him; quite the opposite, I'd say, and that
> *does* mean trouble.
>

Possible that the new guy doesn't know enough to recognize what's being
practiced.

You, for instance know nothing about it, but are willing to condemn rather
than entertain for a moment the chance that your opinion might be in error.

Oh well, it's merely speculation anyway, but there are no old, bold pilots,
as they say.

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> That would be the inside of your lungs otherwise. I wear eye and lung
> protection when there's stuff flying around to get me. If it's noisy I
> wear hearing protection as well. If I had known way back I was going to
> live so long, I'd have taken better care of myself back in the days when I
> thought I was bulletproof.
>

Pretty rare, injuries at a lathe. As far as life-threatening injuries, it's
safer than walking across the street, certainly. Potential is there for
the careless to ding themselves, but it's fairly easy to move the ON/OFF
switch to where you don't have to lean into the disintegration zone to
activate, reasonable to cut standing outside the zone if you push the tool
handle. Makes you an unlikely impact point.

Eyes are very vulnerable and deserve protection. Face shields are often
more trouble in distortion, distraction and discomfort than they're worth,
especially when the above procedures are followed.

Cutting doesn't make dust, though sanding certainly does, so makes sense not
to overload the body's natural defenses and wear something to cut down on
access. Makes better sense to collect close to the point of generation.
When that's done well, it's tough to work up a booger even if you don't wear
a mask.

Toller wrote:

> I have just finished a bowl turning course; my first lathe work. The
> instructor is very casual about safety; he says that is reasonable,
since no
> one ever get hurt on a lathe. I wonder how true that is.

<snip>

Pardon me for being so gross, but the guy is a fucking idiot.

You are working around rotating machinery.

A little common sense goes a long way.

No ties, jewelery, loose clothing, exposed beards or long hair that is
not tucked into a net.

Follow Norm's advice, wear a full face mask.

They are low cost and should be in stock at your local WW Grainger.

Lew

"Toller" <[email protected]> wrote

> A number of people recommended full face shields. I have one, but it is
> pretty thin flexible plastic; I don't expect it would help much against a
> high speed chunk of wood. I looked up a few websites (amazon, hartsville,
> woodcraft) and they just sell ones like mine, except mine has a metal
> frame. Is there something better, or is it strong enough?
>

I will give my standard rant concerning face sheilds.

When I was setting up a small metal shop, I asked a friend of mine who
worked in steel mills where I should go to buy some basic safety equipment.
He referred to to an industrial safety suppplier. Most cities of any size
have them.

There is an amazing assortment of safety equipment at them and most of is is
much better quality than what you get at the borg. I ended up getting a red
hard hat with a face shield attachment. The face shield was a sheet of
flexible polycarbonate with holes in the edge that matched the frame on the
helmet. It quickly changed out from the old one to the new one.

Polycarbonate, although tough, does have a tendancy to get scratched up. So
replacement shieds are a must. One of the reasons why I bought this setup
was because my steel mill friend had some tall tales of how they saved
somebody's face/eyes. i have had a number of solid objects impact the face
shield when grinding down metal parts.

One time it hit hard enough to knock me over onto my ass from a forward
bending position. I have also taken hits on the hard hat as well. If I am
going to do anything in the shop, metal or woodwork, that has a potential to
do me bodily harm, I armor up. Hard hat, face shield, ear protection, safety
glasses and dust mask are a minimum. I often wear a leather apron as well
with a break away strings on it in case it gets caught in anything.

Call me a safety freak. But I grew up around all kinds of industrial
accident victims. I vowed from an early age that nothing like this was going
to happen to me. And I have been a bonafide safety freak ever since.

"RonB" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> I, like most of the other posters, find it amazing that an instructor
> would make such a stupid remark. He should be fired.
>
Well, he cautioned us against hair and loose clothing, but not a word about
safety glasses or dust masks.

The other woodworking class I took wouldn't let you use machinery without
safety glasses with side shields, though they were very casual about dust
also.

In article <[email protected]>, Prometheus <[email protected]> wrote:

>It's strong enough- unless you're doing something really crazy, like
>turning wood with live ammunition in it. Think about it for a minute-
>the rotational force of the piece isn't the only thing that affects
>how it's going to fly off if something breaks or is not held
>correctly. Gravity has it's say as well- and from previous exerience
>when I got my first chuck, anything that could possibly be heavy
>enough to break the sheild drops just as fast or faster than it is
>moving towards you.

The laws of physics dictate quite the opposite, in fact. To begin with, the
mass of an object has absolutely nothing to do with how fast it falls (as was
famously demonstrated by Galileo some five centuries ago).

> Most heavy things will fall fast, then roll along
>the floor- not shoot at you like a cannonball.

Again -- the velocity of a falling object is completely independent of its
mass.

Which direction it goes depends mostly on which direction it's moving when it
comes loose (e.g. on the back side of the work, moving upward -- it's gonna
launch!); at even modest rotational speeds, the velocity of the circumference
of a large workpiece exceeds anything that would be imparted by gravity in the
very short distance between spindle or faceplate and the shop floor.

Example: 10-in diameter workpiece rotating at 500 rpm; lathe center at 42"
above the floor.

The edge of the workpiece is moving at (10 pi * 500) inches per minute =
almost 22 feet per second -- but an object falling only 42" doesn't attain a
velocity of quite 15 fps before it hits the floor.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Toller" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> I have just finished a bowl turning course; my first lathe work. The
> instructor is very casual about safety; he says that is reasonable,
> since no one ever get hurt on a lathe. I wonder how true that is.
>
<snip>

I've been working with wood for my whole life, and seriously, as in
furniture making, for the last six or seven years, as a hobby. I bought a
lathe 18 months ago, and have turned some interesting pieces, bowls, etc.
up to 14" in size.

I had a nasty catch a couple of days after Labor Day, and the scraper
managed to catch me in the left hand, at the base of the second finger. I
wore a major bandage for 6 weeks, and only in the last couple of weeks have
I been comfortable wearing my wedding ring again. The scar doesn't show
too badly.

Nobody ever gets hurt, but I did. And I was very lucky that's all that
happened. I nearly passed out from the shock.

BTW, the bowl is still mounted on the lathe. It's finished now, but it's
still out there.

Be careful.

Patriarch

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> [email protected] wrote:
> [snip]
>> I have never met anyone (maybe I need to get out more) than can
>> outsmart an (not even a smart "thinking man") accident by simply
>> thinking about things.
>>
>
> Yabbut, yabbut...(at the risk of belabouring the point).. doesn't a
> thinking man
> have an advantage when assessing risk?
> Even though I have done a certain routine a bunch of times, I tend to
> stop and think and ask myself the following question: "IF this is
> going to fark me over, how would it happen?"
> That is as natural as ascertaining that I have enough cord to get to
> the end of a cut I'm making.
> I don't start cutting and then, when 60% through the cut, I run out of
> cord...now I have to look at my problem, or try to pull on the
> cord...or stop and start things... (I got really close to getting hurt
> that way.)... basically losing focus of my activity. It is at times
> like that, when shiat tends to happen.
<snip>
>
> r
>

I have grown sons, all pretty bright. One of them, perhaps the
brightest, can be a serious space cadet at times. Loses focus on
mundane activities, and puts all around him at risk.

We try really hard not to distract him when he has sharp tools at hand.
Riding with him when he drives is serious business.

Patriarch

RE: Face Shield

I've got the one you see Norm wearing.

North KHG5001, $15.84 as shown in Grainger CAT 394. (An old CAT)

Add about 10-15% to be safe.

Lew

"Toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I have just finished a bowl turning course; my first lathe work. The
>instructor is very casual about safety; he says that is reasonable, since
>no one ever get hurt on a lathe. I wonder how true that is.

I read somewhere that most woodworking power tools can maim you. The lathe,
however, can kill you.

Seems a reasonable statement if an unbalanced chunk of something starts
heading toward your noggin.

When you hit that power switch, *don't* be standing in the line of fire.

jc

"Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I've got one that is clear, lightweight and comfortable, but it builds
> up so much static electricity that is sucks every bit of dust it can
> hold migrates to it immediately, and make it hard to see.

Wipe it down with a dryer sheet.

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Bill in Detroit wrote:
>> I've never seen a paper mask that didn't have gaps at the edge that are
>> plainly visible.
>
>
> You need to look at the N95 paper masks. We use them to work around TB
> patients. They don't gap around the edges at all.... rather they are
> shaped and they have a flexible nose bridge that you squeeze to form a
> fit.
>
> If they won't let TB in, I doubt they'll let dust in either.
>

Not to mention, they're really cheap when the staff's not looking!

People seem to get hung up on the sieve theory of filtration, which isn't
really what's happening here. If the dust hits a fiber, there's enough fuzz
and too little vacuum to have it go further. That's why you see a faint
trace of dust around where your smile gaps open the mask. Also why silt
precipitates in slow water.

Not to mention that dust particles have to enter into your nasopharyngeal
cavity, which is equipped with hair to cause turbulence, mucous to trap
anything, and cilia to take out the trash.

It's fumes, not cellulose you should be concerned with. Or in the case of
wood, the poisonous extractives the tree uses to fight off critters, fungi,
and bacteria that want to eat it. Dust carries or contains them.

Of course, these problems are not unique to lathes, and are actually much
less of a problem than with many other tools in the shop.

On Sun, 03 Dec 2006 18:06:47 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Prometheus <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>It's strong enough- unless you're doing something really crazy, like
>>turning wood with live ammunition in it. Think about it for a minute-
>>the rotational force of the piece isn't the only thing that affects
>>how it's going to fly off if something breaks or is not held
>>correctly. Gravity has it's say as well- and from previous exerience
>>when I got my first chuck, anything that could possibly be heavy
>>enough to break the sheild drops just as fast or faster than it is
>>moving towards you.
>
>The laws of physics dictate quite the opposite, in fact. To begin with, the
>mass of an object has absolutely nothing to do with how fast it falls (as was
>famously demonstrated by Galileo some five centuries ago).

I'll grant you this one, as I managed to whack myself square in the
forehead with a blank earlier this evening. Didn't fly straight off,
though- it rolled up the tool, up my arm, and then popped up when I
reflexively yanked back and straightened my arm. Didn't feel nice...
but it was an eloquent rebuttal to what I wrote above!

On Sun, 03 Dec 2006 02:38:29 -0600, Prometheus
<[email protected]> wrote:

>I've got one that is clear, lightweight and comfortable, but it builds
>up so much static electricity that is sucks every bit of dust it can
>hold migrates to it immediately, and make it hard to see.

There are all kinds of anti-static sprays you can buy, or you can just
use an anti-static dryer sheet, although it probably won't last nearly
as long as some of the products specifically intended for eliminating
static cling.

On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 05:34:18 -0800, Ralph E Lindberg wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> Bruce Barnett <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> ...
>>
>> HOWEVER:
>> * You can still get sleeves/clothing caught in the rotating chuck.
>
> Never had that happen (yet)

More of a girl/Hippie/suit problem--the first two get their hair caught,
with the third it's his tie.

>> * Your fingers can get mashed by a chuck.
>
> Or the wood (yesterday)
>
>> * That wood can break loose and fly at your body!
>>
> Last week (bounced off the face shield)
>

--

--John

to email, dial "usenet" and validate

(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 05:44:39 -0800, Andy Dingley <[email protected]>
wrote:

> Toller wrote:
>
>> I have just finished a bowl turning course; my first lathe work. The
>> instructor is very casual about safety; he says that is reasonable, since no
>> one ever get hurt on a lathe. I wonder how true that is.
>
> Lathes have a good safety record, which probably has more to do with
> how _many_ accidents they have, not how few.
>
> Lathes have lots of accidents, particularly with beginners. They're
> _small_ accidents though (in general), so no-one gets hurt. It does
> encourage a good attitude to safety though, certainly compared to most
> other woodworking machines.
>
> People using jointers, planers and spindles have a cavalier attitude to
> safety because they've never seen one of these rare accidents and they
> take an "It'll never happen to me" approach to it. OTOH, there are no
> small planer accidents. You ever get caught by one of those and it's
> going to be messy...
>
> Lathes are comparatively benign. We've all had catches, we've all had
> work fall out of a chuck. Many of us will have been walloped by
> something. Few get really hurt by this, but it's the most direct lesson
> you can get that if it hits your nose today, it might get you in the
> eyes tomorrow. Turners aren't safety nazis, but more of them are
> wearing appropriate safety gear, more of the time, than you'll find
> with most other machinists.
>
>
> A consideration of rotational dynamics and Newtonian mechanics is
> reassuring, as regards their log-throwing behaviour. A lathe just won't
> throw turned cylindrical work at you -- there's no resultant linear
> inertia in a rotating cylinder and so it all ever does is drop quietly,
> at worst with a bit of pole vaulting if it hits something else. To get
> a serious wood-chuck accident, you either need to be turning an
> unbalanced piece, or to have something dismantle itself whilst
> rotating. So start off slow on those green logs!

A comment about "log-throwing"--while there's no translational kinetic
energy, there's plenty of rotational kinetic energy that can be
converted to translational under the right circumstances. Here's an
extreme example. This wasn't a lathe incident but one time a propeller
(again no translational kinetic energy) came loose in a test cell at
Humongous Aerospace (where I used to be an engineer) and climbed the wall,
sawed a hole in the roof, walked across the roof and then trashed a row of
cars in the parking lot--IIRC it didn't stop until it got tangled up in a
high chain-link fence that it mostly tore down. Now that was a _lot_
bigger than most of us are going to be turning--it was 12 feet in
diameter, weighed about half a ton, and was consuming about 5,000
horsepower when it came adrift, but the point remains--if the rim gets a
good purchase on something a heavy piece turning at high speed can manage
to launch itself pretty hard.

--

--John

to email, dial "usenet" and validate

(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 22:40:13 +0000, Don Dando wrote:

> Well obviously that statement is a bit ambitious. All you have to do is
> loop a piece of sandpaper around an object you've just turned and hold the
> sandpaper with the index and thumb of one hand. Often your hand will be
> pulled into the wood piece and pinch your fingers pretty badly. I have
> finally learned not to loop the sand paper around but instead hold it across
> the wood with both hands, one in front, one in back, then the paper doesn't
> pinch shut and drag you into it! That is only one of several occurrences
> that can yield pain. While the lathe is a relatively safe tool say compared
> to a table saw, to say "No one ever gets hurt on a lathe" might not be a
> real good statement! But it makes for good small talk !

FWIW, I managed to draw blood with a router today. Not the way you
expect--I wasn't watching where my fingers were when I released the lock
on the plunge base and it pinched me between the base and the stop. Then
for good measure I banged my head on the lumber rack and got a cut there
too. On the other hand getting a 280 pound bandsaw down a 7 foot vertical
drop didn't do me any damage at all (I haven't opened the box yet so won't
say for sure that the _saw_ survived).



> Don Dando
>
>
> "George" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> >
>> > Toller wrote:
>> >> I have just finished a bowl turning course; my first lathe work. The
>> >> instructor is very casual about safety; he says that is reasonable,
> since
>> >> no
>> >> one ever get hurt on a lathe. I wonder how true that is.
>> >>
>> > Is he nuts?
>>
>> Probably just experienced. What he doesn't realize that others may
>> not follow what he's teaching and the safety that's automatic to him.
>> That
> can
>> mean trouble.
>>

--

--John

to email, dial "usenet" and validate

(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

In article <[email protected]>, "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>I have just finished a bowl turning course; my first lathe work. The
>instructor is very casual about safety; he says that is reasonable, since no
>one ever get hurt on a lathe. I wonder how true that is.

Completely false. I remember an especially gruesome incident described
either here, or on rcw, a number of years ago in which a long-haired turner
failed to tie his hair back, and managed to get a pretty hefty lock of it
wrapped around the spinning workpiece. I'll leave the results to your
imagination, which likely isn't going to be any worse than the reality.
>
>I read through the website on woodworking injuries, and there aren't many
>lathe injuries reported. The main problem seems to be the work breaking
>apart at high speeds. Does that happen much?

Never to me, but it has happened. Why not post in rcw (rec.crafts.woodturning)
and see what folks there have to say. It seems to me that this is a problem
mostly with bowl turning, where the workpiece is of a fairly large diameter
and often being turned with the axis of the grain perpendicular to the lathe
bed. If all you do is spindle turnings (e.g. pens, candlesticks, baseball
bats, chair rungs, table legs, etc.) this is a fairly low risk.

>A number of people recommended full face shields. I have one, but it is
>pretty thin flexible plastic; I don't expect it would help much against a
>high speed chunk of wood. I looked up a few websites (amazon, hartsville,
>woodcraft) and they just sell ones like mine, except mine has a metal frame.
>Is there something better, or is it strong enough?

Good enough -- and a lot better than simply goggles. I've said it before, and
I'll say it again: there are other things on your face besides your eyes that
are worth protecting. Teeth, for instance.
>
>I am the only person wearing a dust mask, and it gets pretty dirty after a
>few hours.

Then it would seem that you have more sense than the others. Without the mask,
the stuff that's making it dirty would be making your lungs dirty instead.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

>>> I've never seen a paper mask that didn't have gaps at the edge that are
>>> plainly visible.
>>
>>
>> You need to look at the N95 paper masks. We use them to work around TB
>> patients. They don't gap around the edges at all.... rather they are
>> shaped and they have a flexible nose bridge that you squeeze to form a
>> fit.
>>
>> If they won't let TB in, I doubt they'll let dust in either.
>>
>
> Not to mention, they're really cheap when the staff's not looking!
>
> People seem to get hung up on the sieve theory of filtration, which isn't
> really what's happening here. If the dust hits a fiber, there's enough
> fuzz and too little vacuum to have it go further. That's why you see a
> faint trace of dust around where your smile gaps open the mask. Also why
> silt precipitates in slow water.
>
> Not to mention that dust particles have to enter into your nasopharyngeal
> cavity, which is equipped with hair to cause turbulence, mucous to trap
> anything, and cilia to take out the trash.
>
> It's fumes, not cellulose you should be concerned with. Or in the case of
> wood, the poisonous extractives the tree uses to fight off critters,
> fungi, and bacteria that want to eat it. Dust carries or contains them.
>
> Of course, these problems are not unique to lathes, and are actually much
> less of a problem than with many other tools in the shop.

Basically, you are correct, fumes and "critters" are the bigger problem,
compared to "simple" dust, however, as someone suffering from
COPD/emphysema, I'll take every bit of protection from dust that I can.
While the nose is pretty good at filtering out the crap, it's not perfect
and if I'd been more careful in my younger days with using dust masks, I
might not have the COPD now...or at least, might not have it as bad or as
soon as I did.

Use a dust mask...it's not THAT hard to do, is it?

Mike

Well obviously that statement is a bit ambitious. All you have to do is
loop a piece of sandpaper around an object you've just turned and hold the
sandpaper with the index and thumb of one hand. Often your hand will be
pulled into the wood piece and pinch your fingers pretty badly. I have
finally learned not to loop the sand paper around but instead hold it across
the wood with both hands, one in front, one in back, then the paper doesn't
pinch shut and drag you into it! That is only one of several occurrences
that can yield pain. While the lathe is a relatively safe tool say compared
to a table saw, to say "No one ever gets hurt on a lathe" might not be a
real good statement! But it makes for good small talk !

Don Dando


"George" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > Toller wrote:
> >> I have just finished a bowl turning course; my first lathe work. The
> >> instructor is very casual about safety; he says that is reasonable,
since
> >> no
> >> one ever get hurt on a lathe. I wonder how true that is.
> >>
> > Is he nuts?
>
> Probably just experienced. What he doesn't realize that others may not
> follow what he's teaching and the safety that's automatic to him. That
can
> mean trouble.
>

"Toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I have just finished a bowl turning course; my first lathe work. The
> instructor is very casual about safety; he says that is reasonable, since
no
> one ever get hurt on a lathe. I wonder how true that is.

He's got to be a complete moron to make such an irresponsible and inaccurate
statement.


> I read through the website on woodworking injuries, and there aren't many
> lathe injuries reported.

Probably because lathes are not as widely used as table saws, bandsaws,
jointers, etc.

>The main problem seems to be the work breaking
> apart at high speeds. Does that happen much?

Yes, especially with inexperienced turners. Sufficiently heavy catches can
also break tool rests and steel turning tools. Other dangers include loose
clothing, jewelry, and long hair getting caught on the workpiece or spindle.

> A number of people recommended full face shields. I have one, but it is
> pretty thin flexible plastic; I don't expect it would help much against a
> high speed chunk of wood. I looked up a few websites (amazon, hartsville,
> woodcraft) and they just sell ones like mine, except mine has a metal
frame.
> Is there something better, or is it strong enough?

Even though it's fairly thin, the shield has a radius to it, so a flying
object is more likely to be deflected away than result in a full-force
impact as a flat surface would.

> I am the only person wearing a dust mask, and it gets pretty dirty after a
> few hours.

I personally find dust masks annoying and don't use them much, but I often
pay for it with a couple hours of coughing and sneezing afterwards. Other
turners take dust more seriously and wear breathing apparatus resembling
full hazmat suits.

B.

On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 04:46:08 GMT, "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote:

>I have just finished a bowl turning course; my first lathe work. The
>instructor is very casual about safety; he says that is reasonable, since no
>one ever get hurt on a lathe. I wonder how true that is.

Certainly people can and do get hurt on a lathe, especially if they
wear loose-fitting clothing. Now a lathe itself isn't going to cut
your arm off, but it can certainly cause serious bruising, fractures
and even breaks if your sleeve gets caught when it's spinning and
pulls you into the work.

>A number of people recommended full face shields. I have one, but it is
>pretty thin flexible plastic; I don't expect it would help much against a
>high speed chunk of wood. I looked up a few websites (amazon, hartsville,
>woodcraft) and they just sell ones like mine, except mine has a metal frame.
>Is there something better, or is it strong enough?

That's probably more of a concern than bodily damage, having a piece
come apart at high revolutions and hit you. A face shield is
manditory when using a lathe and I'd recommend a dust mask, at least
when working with materials that might be toxic or hazardous (I do it
all the time, but that's just me.)

Most of the shields out there are strong enough to withstand small
pieces of wood hitting them at high speed. I've seen some really
extreme shields, made of thick Lexan and the like, but I think that's
probably overkill for most people's needs.

On 30 Nov 2006 11:42:05 -0800, [email protected] wrote:

>If you are intelligent enough to think about what you are doing, you
>won't get hurt. So what does that mean in your world? The flip side
>of your hypothesis is the people that should expect to get hurt are the
>ones that won't think, can't think, aren't able to think, or don't know
>how to think? Only non-thinkers get hurt at the lathe?

In the vast majority of cases, yes.

>So accidents don't happen, much less bad accidents don't happen to
>those that think. All you have to do is "thinking man" and you have
>"no reason" to worry about being hurt while using the lathe.

Going by the definition of 'accident' that you give, 'unforseen' and
'unplanned' have no meaning to someone who understands the risks and
plans for them. If you're an idiot and don't know what you're doing
and don't plan for safety and failure, then you're going to get
injured a lot more often than someone who approaches the task
intelligently and rationally.

"Toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "RonB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> I, like most of the other posters, find it amazing that an instructor
>> would make such a stupid remark. He should be fired.
>>
> Well, he cautioned us against hair and loose clothing, but not a word
> about safety glasses or dust masks.
>
> The other woodworking class I took wouldn't let you use machinery without
> safety glasses with side shields, though they were very casual about dust
> also.
>

Thank you. If all you fault him on is his briefing, he can't have been too
bad.

Some things are so obvious they go without saying. Eye protection being one
of them. Lathe is far less likely to cause problems in that regard than
things that whirl the tool not the workpiece. The real idiot is not the one
who failed to mention, but the one who fails to use. Same with dust. If it
irritates you, protect yourself. If you think it might irritate you
someday, protect yourself. Sort of like wiping, as the DI used to say. He
shouldn't have to tell you that. Perhaps a "D" for personal safety for not
wearing wasn't too harsh after all. Betting there were posted warnings on
the wall.

The lathe is certainly far down the list of life/limb risking machines.
I've not seen a lathe accident which required my services in twenty-five
years, though the saws and shapers have made some horrible messes. To me
the hot dog hot stop makes perfect sense.

Watch your instructor and see if maybe he's teaching you to stand out of the
way without mentioning it, cut the wood versus stab it, and not use
excessive speed at any time. He may be better than you think. Perhaps what
he meant to say is "no reason for a thinking man to get hurt at the lathe"?

"Mark Jerde" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:oz0ch.25$oC.9@trnddc04...
>> We are on the same page. (CRINGE, I hate that over-used phrase..)
>
> After that Mark Foley thing I don't use this cliche anymore... ;-)
>

And yet it was the externals of the intern that caught Billie Jeff ....

In article <[email protected]>,
Bill in Detroit <[email protected]> wrote:

> Others have expressed themselves quite succinctly regarding the sagacity
> of your instructor and I fully concur with them.
>
> But let me add a short note on lung protection.
>
> I have a shop-built air cleaner that I calculate (back of the lunch bag
> numbers) filters my shop air roughly 3 times a minute. Yeah ... that's a
> pretty noticeable breeze! I have a stack of three filters. The first is
> a normal 79 cent furnace filter that grabs stuff that would have settled
> out of the air if I weren't stirring it up so much. The second, a 5
> micron filter, gets the air clean-looking ... that is, if it was the
> final filter, I'd be fooled into thinking that my air was clean. The
> third filter is rated to pass nothing bigger then 0.3 microns. Thats
> smaller than dust. Smaller than bacteria. Smaller, even, than some viruses.
>
> With that much air filtration, you'd think that dirty air would be the
> least of my concerns, eh?
>
> But I still wear a 1/2 mask respirator (~$26 at Harbor Freight) because
> I am closer to where the dust is generated than the filter is ... so my
> lungs get first dibs on it.
>
I wear a full face shield/filter, and add a dust collector (with the
nozzle at the lathe) to the above whole shop air filter

> There is an older carpenter that I know. He provided well for his family
> and retired with a workshop bigger than my house and yard combined. But
> he never wore so much as a dust mask.
>
> He's doing well to get 2 or 3 words out between coughs.
>
See my other post in this thread....

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In article <[email protected]>,
Bruce Barnett <[email protected]> wrote:

...
>
> HOWEVER:
> * You can still get sleeves/clothing caught in the rotating chuck.

Never had that happen (yet)

> * Your fingers can get mashed by a chuck.

Or the wood (yesterday)

> * That wood can break loose and fly at your body!
>
Last week (bounced off the face shield)

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In article <[email protected]>,
"Toller" <[email protected]> wrote:

> I have just finished a bowl turning course; my first lathe work. The
> instructor is very casual about safety; he says that is reasonable, since no
> one ever get hurt on a lathe. I wonder how true that is.
>
> I read through the website on woodworking injuries, and there aren't many
> lathe injuries reported. The main problem seems to be the work breaking
> apart at high speeds. Does that happen much?
> A number of people recommended full face shields. I have one, but it is
> pretty thin flexible plastic; I don't expect it would help much against a
> high speed chunk of wood. I looked up a few websites (amazon, hartsville,
> woodcraft) and they just sell ones like mine, except mine has a metal frame.
> Is there something better, or is it strong enough?
>
> I am the only person wearing a dust mask, and it gets pretty dirty after a
> few hours.

... I wear a full-face shield that is also a mask. Mine is a Trend, but
there is also the 3M and Triton.
There are two kinds of woodworkers, those that have wood dust allergies,
and those that will.

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This posting address is a spam-trap and seldom read
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> We are on the same page. (CRINGE, I hate that over-used phrase..)

After that Mark Foley thing I don't use this cliche anymore... ;-)

-- Mark

On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 04:46:08 GMT, "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote:

>I have just finished a bowl turning course; my first lathe work. The
>instructor is very casual about safety; he says that is reasonable, since no
>one ever get hurt on a lathe. I wonder how true that is.

Not true at all. There's a hunk of wood spinning around, and you're
jabbing a sharp piece of metal into it. Provided you're careful, it's
safe enough, but it's just as dangerous as any other tool, and more
dangerous than some.

>I read through the website on woodworking injuries, and there aren't many
>lathe injuries reported. The main problem seems to be the work breaking
>apart at high speeds. Does that happen much?

Depends on what you're doing- I've had it happen a few times when
cutting wet wood very thin. It dries on the lathe, and if it cracks,
it will explode off at fairly high velocity. More *dangerous* to my
mind are spinning chuck jaws that can quickly tear all the skin off a
knuckle or remove a fingernail if you get too close, and getting
something loose wound around the spindle. Easy to bust up a finger or
two if you're sanding the inside of a hollow form like a vase with
sandpaper held in your hand.

>A number of people recommended full face shields. I have one, but it is
>pretty thin flexible plastic; I don't expect it would help much against a
>high speed chunk of wood. I looked up a few websites (amazon, hartsville,
>woodcraft) and they just sell ones like mine, except mine has a metal frame.
>Is there something better, or is it strong enough?

It's strong enough- unless you're doing something really crazy, like
turning wood with live ammunition in it. Think about it for a minute-
the rotational force of the piece isn't the only thing that affects
how it's going to fly off if something breaks or is not held
correctly. Gravity has it's say as well- and from previous exerience
when I got my first chuck, anything that could possibly be heavy
enough to break the sheild drops just as fast or faster than it is
moving towards you. Most heavy things will fall fast, then roll along
the floor- not shoot at you like a cannonball. The face shield will
easily save you from high velocity splinters and smaller chunks of
wood that are moving really fast, and those are the dangers that piece
of equipment is guarding you against.

>I am the only person wearing a dust mask, and it gets pretty dirty after a
>few hours.

A dust mask is always a good idea, not matter what you're doing to
make dust.

As always, common sense will keep you safe as much as anything else.

Prometheus wrote:

>
> Of course, any helpful tips on eliminating that static charge would
> probably convince me to use the sucker at all times.
>

Try one of the static cling sprays designed for laundry care.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]

I, like most of the other posters, find it amazing that an instructor would
make such a stupid remark. He should be fired.

The dust mask is a good idea. Face protection is essential because lathes
do have a habit of throwing things. A good hard catch could even throw the
handle or blade end of a tool up toward your head. The flexible, full face
shields are pretty good. I have only had one mishap when a pretty large
piece of stock came out of my machine while turning between centers. It
happened so quickly I never actually saw it happen. I felt a pretty good
blow on the top of the shield at about forehead height. I looked down and
the workstock was cradled between my arm and side. The chunk weighed well
over a pound so the face shield did its work.

RonB

On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 17:41:52 -0500, "Upscale" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> I don't mean to suggest that lathes are vicious, murderous tools, lurking
>in
>> the corner of the shop waiting to leap upon some unsuspecting rookie
>turner
>> and strangle him, but, like *any* power tool, they do have the potential
>to
>> cause serious injury.
>
>Is this where we start talking about the new LatheStop on the market and the
>200 pounds of shielding around the piece of wood being turned to prevent it
>from flying off the spindle and impaling someone in the forehead? Of course,
>maybe it might be more prudent to invest in the BodyStop personal armour.
>:)

You know, that makes me wonder about something I had forgotten about-

In a high school woodshop I saw during a voc. school class a couple of
years ago, all of the lathes had lexan hoods over them that could be
flipped back if needed. Why isn't that standard equipment? Granted,
many of them would probably be removed and go in the corner next to
the table saw guard, but it seems like a good thing to have on when
roughing wood with bark still on it or with uncertain chucking.

Hi--

I've been turning a lot over the last three years and have racked up a few
injuries--none serious but enuf to make me take protecting myself seriously.

I wear a face shield. It gets dirty, picks up sap when I turn green wood,
fogs in the winter, and when I sneeze you don't wanna know. But I turn a
lot of wood right off the tree, and it does fling small split pieces off, as
well as bark. Even at 450 rpm, they move. Several have caught me in the
face (mask) making me glad I wore it.

I've had about 5 bowls come unglued from the face plate. They don't fly,
they just sort of wander off of the lathe, mostly at the back.

I turned a plate from an old butcher block top. Got it all done, and spun
it at 1200 rpm to melt the wax. There was one crack sound, and I stopped
all to see what happened, didn't see anything. When I turned it back on,
there was another, and the thing flew apart in three pieces. Two of the old
glue joints let go. I caught one on the side of my arm, one in my gut, and
had bruises for a week. I think my face shield would have resisted the
impact.

I hit my fingers a lot with corners before I get the wood rough rounded. You
can't see them. And really knocked my knuckles on "natural edges" spinning
fast.

Finally, I've been turning some larger bowls--start with a chunk of trunk
about 13" in diameter and maybe 15" deep. Have to balance it carefully
before, but even thin it is off balance. I lag screw it to the face plate,
make several checks of clearance and balance before I hit the switch, but
when that wood (weighs in at about 30-35#) starts spinning and shaking its
pretty impressive. I stand next to the off switch, out of the line of fire.

So, take care, you can get hurt, but sensible precautions and knowing which
part of the air belongs to the turning and which part your hands can go into
help.

Have a grand time turning--join a turning club and find some of the
resources on the internet. They are great. http://www.woodturner.org/

OldGuy


"Toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I have just finished a bowl turning course; my first lathe work. The
>instructor is very casual about safety; he says that is reasonable, since
>no one ever get hurt on a lathe. I wonder how true that is.
>
> I read through the website on woodworking injuries, and there aren't many
> lathe injuries reported. The main problem seems to be the work breaking
> apart at high speeds. Does that happen much?
> A number of people recommended full face shields. I have one, but it is
> pretty thin flexible plastic; I don't expect it would help much against a
> high speed chunk of wood. I looked up a few websites (amazon, hartsville,
> woodcraft) and they just sell ones like mine, except mine has a metal
> frame. Is there something better, or is it strong enough?
>
> I am the only person wearing a dust mask, and it gets pretty dirty after a
> few hours.
>

On 4 Dec 2006 03:02:12 -0800, "Andy Dingley <[email protected]>"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>Doug Miller wrote:
>
>> Again -- the velocity of a falling object is completely independent of its
>> mass.
>
>Not at all - the velocity of _freely_ falling objects is independent of
>mass, but lathe turnings aren't usually freely falling -- they're
>spinning objects in passing contact with some fixed point that can
>impart a force to them. If they're balanced and they fall free from the
>chuck then it's no problem - if they catch on the way down, it can get
>hairy.

Yep. I've got a bruise on the noggin that says you're right.
Previous experiences with the chuck letting go were mostly right after
mounting, and didn't involve a cutting tool.

"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, Prometheus
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>It's strong enough- unless you're doing something really crazy, like
>>turning wood with live ammunition in it. Think about it for a minute-
>>the rotational force of the piece isn't the only thing that affects
>>how it's going to fly off if something breaks or is not held
>>correctly. Gravity has it's say as well- and from previous exerience
>>when I got my first chuck, anything that could possibly be heavy
>>enough to break the sheild drops just as fast or faster than it is
>>moving towards you.
>
> The laws of physics dictate quite the opposite, in fact. To begin with,
> the
> mass of an object has absolutely nothing to do with how fast it falls (as
> was
> famously demonstrated by Galileo some five centuries ago).

Think he's talking about the standard 1/2 MV sq inelastic collision
accomplishing some heavy deceleration. Since we're pretty much confined to
earth with our turnings, the M is going to be equal to weight, and it's part
of that equation.

Rather not have a shield. Cuts down on the number of random directions a
piece might take on the ricochet. Just stand out of the zone and let 'er
fly if she cares, though with a modicum of effort no reason it should.

Most machine injuries I've seen contained some element of pursuit of the
piece rather than letting it fly where it would predictably go and the
injured should not be. Buck twenty nine worth of walnut becomes a 1500
dollar ambulance ride and that's only the beginning.

How long has this guy been an instructor? He's never seen a tool catch
or a turning come out of a chuck or break? Perhaps true that lathes
are less dangerous than many other power tools, but people DO get
hurt. and DAMHIKT.


--
No dumb questions, just dumb answers.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore, Maryland - [email protected]

Toller wrote:
> I have just finished a bowl turning course; my first lathe work. The
> instructor is very casual about safety; he says that is reasonable, since no
> one ever get hurt on a lathe. I wonder how true that is.

I had to get six stitches in my lower lip after a piece broke off at
lathe, bounced off the ways and hit me under the face shield.

When I was in grade school a friend of mine was killed by a piece of
stock that broke off a face plate and impaled him in the forehead.


--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]

" In HS metal shop I was standing right next to a
> kid wearing a long sleeve sweater working on a lathe. Sweater got
> caught on the work and ripped completely off his body before he or I
> could hit the red button.

Reminds me of a vo-tech metal shop incident. We were turning 12" long
aluminum bar to various diamenters and then threading each diameter. I
heard "whack - crash" followed by "OH SHIT!" from behind me. An instant
later my position and others were showered with crumbled concrete. The bar
in the lathe behind me left the machine, went straight up and struck a
concrete beam in the ceiling of the old shop building. The bar pulverized
a chunk of concrete about 2" deep and a foot in diameter; then left the
building though a closed window. Ran the tool in a little to fast.

RonB

"Toller" <[email protected]> writes:

> I have just finished a bowl turning course; my first lathe work. The
> instructor is very casual about safety; he says that is reasonable, since no
> one ever get hurt on a lathe. I wonder how true that is.

Wood moves. Sharp edges don't. So a lathe's safer than other tools.

HOWEVER:
* You can still get sleeves/clothing caught in the rotating chuck.
* Your fingers can get mashed by a chuck.
* That wood can break loose and fly at your body!

I don't know if anyone was seriously injured on a Jet Mini.


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