Disturbing Trend

On Fri, 12 May 2006 23:56:56 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Think so? I drove my 76 F250 for seventeen years. Think my 2004 Ranger will
>last that long? Not likely.

No, but if you bought a Honda or a Toyota, it probably would. Way
back when, my wife and I had a Toyota Tercel that ran like a champ for
well over a decade after we got it (and more before we did) and close
to 200k miles before we finally got rid of it. I have never had an
American car that could make it anywhere close to that. My wife's
car, for example, has had a total of *3* transmissions (4 if you count
the one that the shop installed incorrectly) in under 6 years.

Now that's not true of cars made years back. I have a friend who had
a '67 Dodge Dart that ran for over 300k miles on the original engine
and transmission before he gave it to someone, and from what I
understand, it's still running strong.

Swingman wrote:
> "Stephen M" wrote in message
> > Do I just have crappy luck? Are my expectations unrealistic? What's your
> > batting average?
>
> I've been buying tools for a long time, so have some perspective. Even
> discounting an old farts natural and advancing cynicism, things simply
> "ain't what they used to be".
>
> Not one Delta or PC tool I've bought in the last three years has not
> suffered from some shoddy bit of manufacturing, design or value/price point
> engineering issue.

I'll agree with you both, and I'm only 36 years old. I'm not sure if
it's gotten worse over the years because I've only been buying tools in
the last 10 or so, but I'd say the quality is pretty bad. Even on
something simple like a mobile base (from Delta). The directions are
just plain confusing, to start. Then you get holes that aren't
coplanar with each other within the brackets. It's very odd. And it's
a societal issue. It's a race to see who can make the product faster
and cheaper so the other guy doesn't do it first. Say you've got 10
guys making windsor chairs, all of them making a living. Then one guy
decides to invest in a computerized windsor chair maker and can now
produce them at half the cost. The public at large says "Hooray! Half
off windsor chairs!" They now buy only from him, putting the other 9
out of work, who can then go to work for the computer guy at 10 bucks
an hour living like crap. So you've got a bunch of people with
computer made chairs who no longer think they're "cool" because
everyone's got them, 9 guys making $10/hour, and one guy who has
hopefully (I guess) saved the initial windfall from all the chairs he
initially sold because now no one wants to buy them and he's got all
this leveraged computerized chair making equipment. The business
entity goes bankrupt, he moves to Myrtle Beach to golf and you've got a
dead industry and 9 good windsor chair makers looking for a job in a
new profession.

Or something like that. Sorry for the rant.

JP

Stephen M wrote:

> Do I just have crappy luck? Are my expectations unrealistic? What's your
> batting average?
>
> -Steve


I just bought a 3HP General table saw (650-T50 -
http://www.general.ca/pagemach/machines/0general/650_350t50a.html)
which is canadian made.

The steel angle on which the steel tube sits on is bent at 2 places.
Not only that, I think they sunk it in paint and let it dry aside so
I've got tons of runs along its length. The other steel angle (the one
behind the blade) is fine. Surprising for a 2.5K$ piece of equipment
hein?!

I think the overall QC when down quite a bit over the last few decades.
On the other hand, we can buy a lot more tools today to furnish a shop
than we could 20 years ago with the same amount of money.

We're probably, as customers, the first culprit for this mess. How many
idiots will simply pick the "cheapest" tool because it's the...
cheapest?

I was in the market for a new cabinet tablesaw. I had the choice
between Delta X5 at 2100$ with a promotion (free router) or the General
at 2450$. I picked the General simply because it was a better saw,
better built and also local made for me (I'm in Canada). I didn't give
a damn about the 300$-400$ difference. I was already shelling out over
2K$ so I felt I was better to pick a saw that I'll be satisfied with
for the rest of my life.

My point is we often tend to put the price at the top of our purchase
decision even though it's just a few dollars difference. I don't
honestly understand why someone will factor in a difference of 20$ when
they're shopping for a 400$ tool. The difference is meaningless and
shouldn't be in the purchase decision but the vast majority think
otherwise...

So, the consequence is very simple and sad at the same time.
Manufacturers just keep focusing on how to make products at the
cheapest price they can. In some occasions they can do it by not
compromising the quality but unfortunately in many other cases, they
have to cut somewhere the customer doesn't really expect or want.

If we want to see this changing, we'll have to stop showing the
manufacturers than only the price counts. Price is certainly something
to pay attention to but IMHO should rank at priority 4 or 5 instead of
being at the top. If manufacturers start loosing sales not because they
weren't the cheapest but because they lack features or don't pay
attention enough to details, they will start to change. But people want
to pay the lowest price possible and easily accept to cope with
defective products.


Cyberben

It is a disturbing fact indeed !. Companies are spending much too much
$$$ on marketing and advertising to convince the consumer that their
product is high quality and reliable instead of spending the money on a
quality product. Why ???? to stay in business of course and sell you
same product 2 - 3 years down the road when the old one breaks. Most
people will be shocked to learn that 70 - 80 % of company cost for
manufacturing a product is advertisemsnt/marketing cost. As an example
that new Nike sneakers you paid over $100 for your kids, actually
costs Nike $5 to manufacture in Viet Nam. Most of the cost is
advertisement lik emulti million dollar endorsements to sport stars.
Now ad in designed obsolescence into the product and expect your
product to last max 3 years if you are lucky!


B A R R Y wrote:
> Stephen M wrote:
> >
> > While I will acknowledge that guano happens, that's a pretty sad batting
> > average.
> >
> > It really reinforces the importance of buying from vendors/manufacturers who
> > will provide decent support.
> >
> > Do I just have crappy luck? Are my expectations unrealistic? What's your
> > batting average?
>
> I usually buy heavy stuff locally, as I'm fortunate to have several
> excellent dealers inside a 30 minute drive. I'm batting 1.000, as far
> as broken parts go, but only so-so as far as "completeness" of sealed
> packages. The only heavy items I've had shipped to me were a refurbed
> SCMS, which was packed in pour-in foam by Tyler Tool, and a Jet
> mini-lathe and stand. The pour-in expandable stuff is ugly, but it
> seems to do a wonderful job protecting the contents.
>
> My DJ-20 and X5 bandsaw were both missing large, heavy, show stopping
> parts from sealed packages. I'm talking stuff like pullies, belt
> guards, and the _TOP_ of the band saw's closed base. Once the tools
> were made usable, I've been totally happy, but it took Delta 4 weeks+ on
> the band saw, and 3 weeks on the jointer to make me whole. The thing
> that really bugs me about missing major parts is that I know some other
> industries weigh boxes (internal sub-packs & complete units) during the
> packing process and can reliably ship things with many tiny parts, while
> the tool industry can ship a box missing_25_ pounds or an 18x18 piece of
> thick stamped steel! <G>
>
> I've had good luck with Canadian-made General (no experience with
> General International), DeWalt, Baldor, and Jet, but I've had only one
> or two examples each, compared to six Delta tools. All of my hand-held
> Bosch, PC, DeWalt, Makita, Senco, etc... power and air tools have been
> perfect, so far...
>
> I've seen the way the larger tools get delivered to my local vendors,
> and have come to the conclusion that most, but certainly not all, of the
> damage to big iron seems to happen during the retail to consumer ship,
> rather than the wholesale to retailer ship.
>
> On another note, I have the same Delta 12" sander, and aside than the
> plastic adjusting levers making me leery, it's been a handy, dependable,
> and often used tool. It reminds me of some good-quality specialty hand
> planes, in the sense that you don't realize how handy it is until you've
> got it.
>
> On the other hand (pun intended), I've been completely satisfied, often
> even thrilled, with every higher-end hand tool I've purchased, by
> Veritas, Lie Nielsen, Starrett, Hirsch, Bessey, etc... While it seems
> like the "mass-market" versions of those tools just get worse by the hour.

Stephen M wrote:
>
> But I got to thinking that 5 out of the last 5 tool purchases that I have
> made, that have at least some cast iron components, (that eliminates hand
> tools and stuff like drills) have had either shipping damage or infancy
> problems that needed to be addressed by the manufacturer. (Delta, Jet,
> Woodcraft, Yorkcraft, Woodtek)

It's not just tools. I'm in the building business and I'm constantly
getting compromised packages.

I think there are at least three factors at work here.

The first is the "improved" engineering capabilities when designing
parts and components. The manufacturer, looking to minimize cost and
weight and all of those other things that add to the item cost and
"don't add to the bottom line", use sophisticated engineering to design
parts that just meet the tool's working requirements. Shipping is not
a working requirement - at least to them, apparently.

The second is that more and more of the tools are coming from further
away. Half a world away. With all of the added handling and potential
for damage.

The third is the company's decision on what constitutes acceptable
losses during shipping. If the company built reinforced crates to ship
everything, everything would arrive unscathed. Unfortunately that's an
expensive way to go. So they cut back on the packaging. The bean
counters determine the sweet spot between damage and packaging costs.

I don't think it's yet occurred to these companies that the only thing
worse for little Johnny (you and me) than not getting a present for
Christmas (tool arrives at the door), is having the Christmas present
broken when he unwraps it. The heightened expectations, honed with
anticipation over the waiting period, come crashing down. Any Dad,
having experienced the kid's giddy glee while opening the package and
witnessing the crash and tears, would vow, "That will _not_ happen
again!" Businesses haven't figured this part out yet.

R

"Stephen M"
Snip
> But I got to thinking that 5 out of the last 5 tool purchases that I have
> made, that have at least some cast iron components, (that eliminates hand
> tools and stuff like drills) have had either shipping damage or infancy
> problems that needed to be addressed by the manufacturer. (Delta, Jet,
> Woodcraft, Yorkcraft, Woodtek)
>
Snip
> It really reinforces the importance of buying from vendors/manufacturers
> who
> will provide decent support.
>
> Do I just have crappy luck? Are my expectations unrealistic? What's your
> batting average?
>
> -Steve
>

It's our own fault. As long as there is a market for cheapo junk, the
quality index will continue to slide.
Places like Harbor Fright and others continue to attract buyers looking for
the absolute cheapest machine or tool with no regard to the quality or more
importantly, the people who are working as slave labor in horrible living
conditions making this junk. I too have purchased Delta, Jet and other
tools that came from China so I'm guilty as well. However, I do not shop at
HF or buy no-name Chinese tools.

I believe it will turn around. The automotive industry has. In the early
80's American made cars were at an all time low in quality. The import
market proved you can make a quality vehicle at a competitive price. This
forced domestic automakers to up the quality or go out of business. Now,
the quality of all cars is very good. However, save some Korean makers, the
cost of cars/trucks is high, relative to other products.

Bottom line is as long as there is a market for cheap/poorly made products,
someone will make and sell them to us.

Dave

As mentioned in another reply to this thread, cast iron
ain't what it used to be. A while back I got a new 8"
jointer from Sunhill and the fence was twisted a little.
I could live with the slight bow but the twist made it
useless for edge jointing. So they sent me another
fence. The new fence had a slightly different color and
while that was a little annoying it wasn't enough to
make me return it for another. I just painted it black.
But when I went to install it I noticed that the casting
was a little different. The webbing was deeper and
the main bolt hole in the center of the fence was in
the wrong place to line up with the fence tilting
mechanism. I decided that instead of returning it I
would just redrill the hole. It was about 9/16" and I
was wondering how it would drill in my drill press. I
lined it up and turned the chuck and bit by hand to make
sure it was aligned properly. I couldn't believe when
just turning the bit by hand started metal curls peeling
up from the fence. The bit wasn't new or exceptionally
sharp but the metal was so soft I could've drilled this
hole with a brace and bit! I didn't even bother using
the drill lube I had on hand and the hole was cut like
it was hardwood. The counter sink went just as easily.

I asked a friend of mine who owns an automotive
machine shop about this and he said that most of
the cast iron on cheaper car engines and many tools
is made from scrap metal that's just thrown together
and it's not seasoned like it used to be. He said
a lot of engines he machines cut just as easily.
And it's not just the Chiawanese stuff either so the
people who slam the import stuff are doing so without
knowing the whole story. Sure, there may be other
quality control issues involved but most of the cast
iron is worse than it used to be.

Are there any major tools, (TS, DP, jointer, etc.)
that are anywhere close to being affordable that are still
made in the USA? For me, Canada and Chiawan are
about the same politically or any other way when it
comes to tool purchases and supporting USA
companies. All of the major power tools I own are
made overseas and when I bought them there was
nothing that I found that was made in the USA that was
an option. The last tool I bought was the Smart Miter
made in the good ol' USA by Jointech. It's the worst
tool I've ever bought combined with the worst customer
service I've ever experienced. Just unbelieveable!
Close to $300 down the drain. For that looong ugly
story look here:
http://groups.google.com/group/Jointechwoodworking/browse_thread/thread/0493ae1dba64fe55

So what can ya do? Suck it up and get used to
hit-and-miss quality. While my experience with the
Sunhill jointer contained numerous screw ups and
quality control issues, (others I didn't mention) at
least they paid a bundle of money in shipping each
way for a new jointer and then the defective fence
and they threw in a bunch of free stuff to keep me
happy. Hard to overlook the quality control issues
though...

Bruce

Hi Chris,

I actually called the store where I bought it. They ask me to come back
and they will exchange it from another unopened box. That's fine for me
but I'm still quite surprised.


Cyberben

[email protected] wrote:
I noticed that the casting
> was a little different. The webbing was deeper and
> the main bolt hole in the center of the fence was in
> the wrong place to line up with the fence tilting
> mechanism. I decided that instead of returning it I
> would just redrill the hole. It was about 9/16" and I
> was wondering how it would drill in my drill press. I
> lined it up and turned the chuck and bit by hand to make
> sure it was aligned properly.

Of course you realize that attempting to correct the manufacturer's
shoddiness voided any and all warranties that came with that piece of
crap!

My experience recently was a small Draper bandsaw which was delivered
with one of the cast feet cracked in two. There wasn't a scratch to
the box so ity must have been packed that way!

And the other day I was looking at new cars. I spent a long time
looking at a Grand Cherokee and the beaming salesman bounced up to me
and asked if I'd like to be the proud owner. I told him I didn't think
I could have a lot of faith in a car that was put together by workers
who couldn't even bother to get the rear name badge on straight! It
was off-level by a good 5mm.

FoggyTown

B A R R Y wrote:
> On the other hand (pun intended), I've been completely satisfied, often
> even thrilled, with every higher-end hand tool I've purchased, by
> Veritas, Lie Nielsen, Starrett, Hirsch, Bessey, etc... While it seems
> like the "mass-market" versions of those tools just get worse by the hour.

I'm like my dad, in that I try to put money into decent tools...I've
looked at all his old Starretts and Snap-Ons and whatnots, and the
quality is unbearably good lo these 50 years since he bought them.

On the other hand, four of the seven Starrett tools I've bought were
crap, and a fifth was good but had obviously been "price pointed."
Starrett ain't what they used to be. To my mind they are the next
Stanley. Any precision equipment I buy in the future will be Browne
and Sharp.

Veritas has been about 50/50...their hand planes are wonderful, but so
far the rest has been mixed. Often times they're either cheap steel,
poor castings, or poor designs. Not everything, but enough to make me
shop elsewhere often.

Lie-Nielsen...100%. So far that's the only mfg I've found that's still
worth the price, although I've never bought any Bridge City. I just
can't justify $900 for a hand plane.

Oddly enough, I've had excellent luck with Dewalt. That's why I keep
hoping against hope that B & D will bring Delta back to life.

> "Teamcasa"
>> It's our own fault. As long as there is a market for cheapo junk, the
>> quality index will continue to slide.
>> Places like Harbor Fright and others continue to attract buyers looking
> for
>> the absolute cheapest machine or tool with no regard to the quality or
> more
>> importantly, the people who are working as slave labor in horrible living
>> conditions making this junk. I too have purchased Delta, Jet and other
>> tools that came from China so I'm guilty as well. However, I do not shop
> at
>> HF or buy no-name Chinese tools.

> "Mike Marlow"
> Certainly you don't believe that Delta, Jet or pick your favorite brand of
> product which is also manufactured in China is paying those factory
> workers
> more to build their products. Cheap labor is cheap labor and you can bet
> the Chinese who are making what we consider to be good brands aren't
> making
> average American wages simply because of the logo on the product.
>
>> "Teamcasa"
>> Bottom line is as long as there is a market for cheap/poorly made
>> products, someone will make and sell them to us.
>>
> "Mike Marlow"
> Yup. It's always been that way and it always will be. There has always
> been a low end market and there are people out there who are quite
> thankful
> that they don't have to pay high prices for equipment that they don't
> need.
> Maybe you or I wouldn't buy most of it, but that does not mean it doesn't
> have a place in the scheme of things.


No Mike I am not that naive. I just wish Delta would produce a domestic
line that was top quality and somewhere close in price. Its not impossible.
I do however, buy domestic when ever I can. Lie-Nielson is an execption.

Dave

Teamcasa wrote:
>Lie-Nielson is an execption.

Why not buy Lie-Nielsen? I've had great luck with them, and I've found
their price/quality ratio to be within the range. (Painful, yes, but
in the range!)

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Teamcasa wrote:
>>Lie-Nielson is an execption.
>
> Why not buy Lie-Nielsen? I've had great luck with them, and I've found
> their price/quality ratio to be within the range. (Painful, yes, but
> in the range!)
>
The exception is they are Canadian - I buy them anyway!
Dave

Teamcasa wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Teamcasa wrote:
> >>Lie-Nielson is an execption.
> >
> > Why not buy Lie-Nielsen? I've had great luck with them, and I've found
> > their price/quality ratio to be within the range. (Painful, yes, but
> > in the range!)
> >
> The exception is they are Canadian - I buy them anyway!
> Dave

You mean Lee Valley? ;-) Lie-Nielsen is out of Maine. (Which, having
lived there for a short while, can be confused for Canada quite
easily...)

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Teamcasa wrote:
>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> > Teamcasa wrote:
>> >>Lie-Nielson is an execption.
>> >
>> > Why not buy Lie-Nielsen? I've had great luck with them, and I've found
>> > their price/quality ratio to be within the range. (Painful, yes, but
>> > in the range!)
>> >
>> The exception is they are Canadian - I buy them anyway!
>> Dave
>
> You mean Lee Valley? ;-) Lie-Nielsen is out of Maine. (Which, having
> lived there for a short while, can be confused for Canada quite
> easily...)
>
Lee Valley is also an exception. Your right! Lie-Nielsen is in Maine - For
some reason I thought it was Canadian. Phew - I feel better now~ My new LN
chisel plane is sitting on my workbench - still in its box - time to break
it out and see how well it works!

Dave

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Teamcasa" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>
>> No Mike I am not that naive. I just wish Delta would produce a domestic
>> line that was top quality and somewhere close in price. Its not
> impossible.
>> I do however, buy domestic when ever I can. Lie-Nielson is an execption.
>>
>
> Sorry Dave - I did not intend a tone that suggested naivety. Likewise - I
> would as well. I consistently pay a small premium just to buy locally, so
> I
> would equally pay something of a premium to buy domestic production as
> well.
>
No problem Mike - Now out to the shop for me!

Dave

"Patriarch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Teamcasa" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
> <snip>
>
>>> You mean Lee Valley? ;-) Lie-Nielsen is out of Maine. (Which,
>>> having lived there for a short while, can be confused for Canada
>>> quite easily...)
>>>
>> Lee Valley is also an exception. Your right! Lie-Nielsen is in Maine
>> - For some reason I thought it was Canadian. Phew - I feel better
>> now~ My new LN chisel plane is sitting on my workbench - still in its
>> box - time to break it out and see how well it works!
>>
>> Dave
>>
>
> They work at least as well as any other chisel plane. And they look
> GREAT,
> too!
>
> I have one. It's a really nice decoration, 99% of the time.
>
> Not the only tool I rarely use...
>
> Patriarch
>
But when ya need it - ya need it!

Dave

B A R R Y wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> >
> > Veritas has been about 50/50...their hand planes are wonderful, but so
> > far the rest has been mixed. Often times they're either cheap steel,
> > poor castings, or poor designs. Not everything, but enough to make me
> > shop elsewhere often.
>
> Which Veritas tools are you referring to?

Their forstner bits, striking knife, and sliding bevel (4") were all
big disappointments. The forstner bits were horribly machined and
wouldn't drill flat-bottomed holes, the striking knife snapped under
very very nominal pressure within the first week, and the sliding bevel
won't hold it's setting no matter how tight you make it.

Their Mk. II honing guide is fantastic for plane blades, but only
marginal at best for chisels, especially if the chisel has a high taper
angle from the tang to the tip...it won't hold these at all without a
shim, which can then present problems with the chisel shifting.

I can't begin to emphasize again though how wonderful their hand planes
are. This is where Veritas really excels.

>Of course you realize that attempting to correct the manufacturer's
>shoddiness voided any and all warranties that came with that piece of
>crap!



Nope, you don't know the story. Sunhill has gone quite a way to make
me happy. This fence problem wasn't the first issue with this jointer.
They have sent me two jointers and picked one up at their own expense.
They have sent me two free extra sets of knives and a free mobile base
just for my trouble. They didn't want the first fence back and if this
one
had a problem I'm pretty sure they would send me another one free of
charge. They've been nothing but nice to me so far and everything
they've
sent me was without me having to bitch too loudly or even ask for.
Well,
except for the intial purchase of course. This is their brand of
jointer but
it was probably built right along side the Grizzly and other brands in
Taiwan
only with slightly different options.



>I could have a lot of faith in a car that was put together by workers
>who couldn't even bother to get the rear name badge on straight! It
>was off-level by a good 5mm.

Funny you should mention that...There were these nice and shiny
metal, "Stickers" with the, "Sunhill" name slapped on both the base
and beds of the jointer. Both of them were stuck on ridiculously
crooked. I'm not much of a label guy and I'd just as soon have
everything I've ever bought come without a label or name plate so I had
no problem peeling off the stickers. Obviously, somebody at the
label station at the factory in Taiwan was having a bad day. I'm
quite happy with the jointer now as it works beautifully with very
little effort but I'll have to carefully consider another purchase from
Sunhill.

By the way, anyone want to buy the beefiest mobile base
made for an 8" jointer? $50 plus shipping. Unused still in the box.
I think Sunhill wants $80 plus shipping. I built my own because
I needed the jointer at an exact height to match my work bench.

Bruce

>
> Do I just have crappy luck? Are my expectations unrealistic? What's your
> batting average?
>
> -Steve
>
Now coming from a new guy ( noobie) I only make 1-3 projects a year
and cost is a huge factor for me. I can not afford nor justisfiy
spending 3x as much for a high end product. Dont get me wrong I've
learned my lesson about cheap tools (harbor freight, low end sears) But
you have to see most tools were made for the weekend warrior like
myself. So when a product is made it is made to please the masses.
Unfortunly those who use their tools for a living suffer at the hands
of of the MFG.

[email protected] wrote:

> I just bought a 3HP General table saw (650-T50 -
> http://www.general.ca/pagemach/machines/0general/650_350t50a.html)
> which is canadian made.
>
> The steel angle on which the steel tube sits on is bent at 2 places.

I've got the same fence.

Did you call them up? For sure they'll get you a non-bent piece. Given
that angle iron isn't all that strong against diagonal forces, it's
possible something happened in shipping.

> Surprising for a 2.5K$ piece of equipment hein?!

I just bought the General International equivalent of that saw. I had
to get a new top shipped out, as mine had a small but noticeable hump
right beside the blade. I'd been prepared for this on an import, but
I'd thought that the General version would be better. Guess nobody's
perfect.

Chris

charlie b wrote:

> (snapped the cast iron tool rest on my JET mini/midi
> lathe.  took it to the woodworking show and held up
> the two parts in front of the JET rep - with a small
> crowd standing around watching.  "My, that certainly
> shouldn't have happened.  Take it back to where you
> bought it - along with your model number, serial
> number, receipt etc. and I'm sure they'll replace it
> - for free"  he said.  "How about if I just give you
> this one here and you give me the toolrest on this
> demo model JET mini/midi lathe so I DON"T HAVE TO
> SPEND MY TIME REPLACING YOUR DEFECTIVE PART
> WHICH HAS MADE THE JET PRODUCT I PAID FOR A
> USELESS, HEAVY, FLOOR SPACE WASTING CHUNK OF
> METAL!" - I "suggested".  "I'm afraid I can't do that -
> sir.  But I'm sure our distributor, from whom you
> purchased it, will be glad to replace it - at no charge."
> -said the rep, turning away to engage another
> potential customer, now retreating.)
>

ROFL - more of us should do that :-).

I have been known to make snide comments about tilting tables at
Shopsmith demos :-).

--
It's turtles, all the way down

Greg Kimnach wrote:

> i removed removed the cutterhead and, as soon as i did, the front bearing
> slipped out of the block. there was a hairline crack in the bearing block.
>
> i shot off an e-mail to grizzly and they promptly gave me an RMA and told me to
> include a receipt for the return shipping, which they would refund. (how many
> companies do that?)

I don't think I've every had to pay shipping for a defective product.
Hard drives, table saw top, joystick microswitches/potentiometers,
optical mouse--they always payed the shipping.

If a company ships me a defective product, them paying the shipping is
the absolute *minimum* that I would expect. Better would be some
additional benefits to make up for the hassle of the thing being
defective in the first place.

Chris

"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>
>
> But I did own a 1974 Chevy C-10 that would have run forever if the
> body panels hadn't rusted all to shit in three years.

That was a problem period for sure. Everyone of them in the northeast
looked like they'd been camo painted with rust and the original factory
color within 3 years.

>
> That straight six was a runner - but the metal of the body sucked.
>
> That's how I became a Ford man.
>

My '94 is finally showing signs that I have to do some work on it this
summer. I'll throw some new sheet metal at it and repaint the whole truck
and then look forward to another 100,000 miles out of it.

GM's as a whole have come a very long way from the disaster of the 70's but
the trucks still don't hold up body-wise the same way the cars do. Too many
hidden areas to trap moisture and debris. I have to replace both front
fenders, both doors (could put on lower door panels - undecided if I'm going
to do this or replace the doors completely), both cab corners (simple cut,
glue in new ones, fill and paint), and box panels around the wheel wells.
Total parts cost is under $1000, paint will be around $600 and I don't even
consider my labor. The bottom line is that I can't afford to simply replace
the truck. The running gear is in excellent shape and it doesn't warrant
another payment just because of rust that can be repaired. Unfortunately,
despite the best effort of manufacturers, you're hard-pressed to find a 12
year old truck in upstate NY that isn't showing similar signs of our
winters. Makes no difference who built it, salt is no respecter of brand.

Just to keep this on-topic... I do use the truck to pick up lumber as well
as plowing snow.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"Stephen M" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I popped open the box and both of the cast iron trunions were snapped off.
> Frankly, they're are not of the beefiest design. So I called up Delta and
> they are going to send me replacement parts... No big deal.
>
> But I got to thinking that 5 out of the last 5 tool purchases that I have
> made, that have at least some cast iron components, (that eliminates hand
> tools and stuff like drills) have had either shipping damage or infancy
> problems that needed to be addressed by the manufacturer. (Delta, Jet,
> Woodcraft, Yorkcraft, Woodtek)

Cast isn't what it was, that's for sure. What used to be done at some
length is now done quickly. Castings used to age a year, perhaps, now it's
out of the mold, into the oven, and on to machining.

Had the same problem with large-crystal Grizzly castings on four of five
machines purchased for our school shop.

Other problems of mismatch, missing, and so forth are likely related to
parts subcontracting. My SiL works for a fabricating place, and generally
takes a trip to the user, as he will this weekend, with prototypes in hand
to verify that they _will_ serve, not just be in spec. He's had problems
with US foundry products, too, so it's all over.

Mike Marlow wrote:
> "Teamcasa" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...

>> However, I do not shop at HF or buy no-name Chinese tools.
>
>
> Certainly you don't believe that Delta, Jet or pick your favorite brand of
> product which is also manufactured in China is paying those factory workers
> more to build their products. Cheap labor is cheap labor and you can bet
> the Chinese who are making what we consider to be good brands aren't making
> average American wages simply because of the logo on the product.

Actually, some of the Chiwanese factories are computerized and
automated, while some of them are dinky little hand-operated shops.

I suspect the bigger names are buying enough to contract the automated
places, so the workers *may* be in better conditions.

In any case, I suspect that the average quality of the name-brand tools
is higher than the no-name ones, if only because they're spending more
money monitoring the Chiwanese factories.

According to some of the FWW articles I've read, the guys running the
factories will produce as cheaply as they can , so if the importers
don't stay on top of them quality suffers. The factory owners don't
seem to have much pride in the quality of the product--money seems to be
everything, and corners will be cut whenever they think they can get
away with it.

Chris

Jay Pique wrote:

> I'll agree with you both, and I'm only 36 years old. I'm not sure if
> it's gotten worse over the years because I've only been buying tools in
> the last 10 or so, but I'd say the quality is pretty bad. Even on
> something simple like a mobile base (from Delta). The directions are
> just plain confusing, to start. Then you get holes that aren't
> coplanar with each other within the brackets. It's very odd. And it's
> a societal issue. It's a race to see who can make the product faster
> and cheaper so the other guy doesn't do it first. Say you've got 10
> guys making windsor chairs, all of them making a living. Then one guy
> decides to invest in a computerized windsor chair maker and can now
> produce them at half the cost. The public at large says "Hooray! Half
> off windsor chairs!" They now buy only from him, putting the other 9
> out of work, who can then go to work for the computer guy at 10 bucks
> an hour living like crap. So you've got a bunch of people with
> computer made chairs who no longer think they're "cool" because
> everyone's got them, 9 guys making $10/hour, and one guy who has
> hopefully (I guess) saved the initial windfall from all the chairs he
> initially sold because now no one wants to buy them and he's got all
> this leveraged computerized chair making equipment. The business
> entity goes bankrupt, he moves to Myrtle Beach to golf and you've got a
> dead industry and 9 good windsor chair makers looking for a job in a
> new profession.
>
> Or something like that. Sorry for the rant.

It's called The Race To The Bottom, the bottom being The Bottom
Line - for the next quarter, with quality spiraling down as The
Bottom Line goes up, or at least stays the same.

Somewhere along the line some gnomes now referred to as
Wall Street Analysts decide how much each business should
make in profits over the next 90 days. If a business falls
short of their projected / expected profits the business's
stock price drops. Who these people are and how they got
this economic power is a mystery. How they keep this power
is also a mystery, given Enron etc.. And they've missed
some really big ones - Charles Keating and his Savings &
Loan Fiasco The Venerable Ronald Reagan Administration
made possible. THAT ONE cost US taxpayers a HUGE chunk
of change since S&L were Federaly Insured.

There was a time when people bought stock in a company
for the annual dividends the stocks brought. Today it's
more about speculation - read legalized gambling - that
someone will pay more for the stock in the future than
you paid to buy it. MicroSoft doesn't pay dividends - nor
taxes for that matter - the latter having to do with
"tax incentives" presumably intended to encourage
"business" and written in to law by "our" representaives
in Congress and the Senate.

The probelm with The Bottom Line is the Penny Saved
Is A Penny Earned approach to making things. QC costs
money - from The Bottom Line. So if buying crappy
raw materials contributes to The Bottom Line - at least
for the next quarter - then buy crappy raw materials.
By the time the consumer discovers that the finished
product is crappy - you've got his/her money and you've
met The Wall Street Analysts' projected profits. Eventually
you'll have to spend more money on advertising to try
and persuade the consumer that you've got a New and
Improved product - that's not as crappy as your competitors.
And on, and on and on and on - to The Bottom.

(snapped the cast iron tool rest on my JET mini/midi
lathe. took it to the woodworking show and held up
the two parts in front of the JET rep - with a small
crowd standing around watching. "My, that certainly
shouldn't have happened. Take it back to where you
bought it - along with your model number, serial
number, receipt etc. and I'm sure they'll replace it
- for free" he said. "How about if I just give you
this one here and you give me the toolrest on this
demo model JET mini/midi lathe so I DON"T HAVE TO
SPEND MY TIME REPLACING YOUR DEFECTIVE PART
WHICH HAS MADE THE JET PRODUCT I PAID FOR A
USELESS, HEAVY, FLOOR SPACE WASTING CHUNK OF
METAL!" - I "suggested". "I'm afraid I can't do that -
sir. But I'm sure our distributor, from whom you
purchased it, will be glad to replace it - at no charge."
-said the rep, turning away to engage another
potential customer, now retreating.)

charlie b

"Fly-by-Night CC" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Tom Watson <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Been tuned once.
>
> Don't know if that's something to be proud of or not. Could be something
> similar to, "My car's got 20,000 miles and only had one oil change." Or,
> "After 10 years, I have yet to wash the truck." Just because one can
> boast about something, doesn't mean the vehicle hasn't suffered from
> lack of care.

Obviously you're caught back in time. With leadless gas and current
plugs/ignition, the recommended interval for "tuneups" is 100,000. Timing
and "carburetion" are done continuously.

"Brian Henderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 12 May 2006 23:56:56 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Think so? I drove my 76 F250 for seventeen years. Think my 2004 Ranger
will
> >last that long? Not likely.
>
> No, but if you bought a Honda or a Toyota, it probably would. Way
> back when, my wife and I had a Toyota Tercel that ran like a champ for
> well over a decade after we got it (and more before we did) and close
> to 200k miles before we finally got rid of it. I have never had an
> American car that could make it anywhere close to that. My wife's
> car, for example, has had a total of *3* transmissions (4 if you count
> the one that the shop installed incorrectly) in under 6 years.

I have owned GM products that have all gone over 200,000 miles (unless they
got wrecked first), with no major component replacements, consistently. My
norm for a car is between 200,000 and 250,000. My cars look good when I get
rid of them and they all run good. 200,000 out of a GM is nothing
surprising.

>
> Now that's not true of cars made years back. I have a friend who had
> a '67 Dodge Dart that ran for over 300k miles on the original engine
> and transmission before he gave it to someone, and from what I
> understand, it's still running strong.

Now that's more surprising. 60's vehicles typically didn't go that long
without some major repairs.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>
> I will leave you with this message from the Gospel:
>
>
> "Jesus was a Chevy man - that's why he walked everywhere."
>

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And of course you do know what the towing package is on a
new Ford right?


... A Chevy!

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"Teamcasa" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>
> It's our own fault. As long as there is a market for cheapo junk, the
> quality index will continue to slide.
> Places like Harbor Fright and others continue to attract buyers looking
for
> the absolute cheapest machine or tool with no regard to the quality or
more
> importantly, the people who are working as slave labor in horrible living
> conditions making this junk. I too have purchased Delta, Jet and other
> tools that came from China so I'm guilty as well. However, I do not shop
at
> HF or buy no-name Chinese tools.

Certainly you don't believe that Delta, Jet or pick your favorite brand of
product which is also manufactured in China is paying those factory workers
more to build their products. Cheap labor is cheap labor and you can bet
the Chinese who are making what we consider to be good brands aren't making
average American wages simply because of the logo on the product.


>
> Bottom line is as long as there is a market for cheap/poorly made
products,
> someone will make and sell them to us.
>

Yup. It's always been that way and it always will be. There has always
been a low end market and there are people out there who are quite thankful
that they don't have to pay high prices for equipment that they don't need.
Maybe you or I wouldn't buy most of it, but that does not mean it doesn't
have a place in the scheme of things.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

In article <[email protected]>, Brian Henderson <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Mon, 15 May 2006 22:04:50 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>I have owned GM products that have all gone over 200,000 miles (unless they
>>got wrecked first), with no major component replacements, consistently. My
>>norm for a car is between 200,000 and 250,000. My cars look good when I get
>>rid of them and they all run good. 200,000 out of a GM is nothing
>>surprising.

Ayup. Bought an '84 LeSabre in '91 with 54K on it. Still running fine when
I sold it ten years later with 210K.

Bought an '86 Suburban in '95 at 64K. Still running fine nine years later at
187K ... when some SOB stole it.

Bought another '86 Suburban a few months later. It'll hit 200K sometime next
month. Seems like you just can't kill a Chevy V-8.

>
>Try that with a Ford. There's a reason they're Found On Road Dead.

Or, "Fix Or Repair Daily".

But FIATs are even worse. Fix It Again Today. Fix It Again Tomorrow.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

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On 2006-05-17, Doug Miller <[email protected]> ranted thusly:

> But FIATs are even worse. Fix It Again Today. Fix It Again Tomorrow.

I thought that was Fix It Again, Tony?

er
--
email not valid

Teamcasa wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Teamcasa wrote:
>>> Lie-Nielson is an execption.
>> Why not buy Lie-Nielsen? I've had great luck with them, and I've found
>> their price/quality ratio to be within the range. (Painful, yes, but
>> in the range!)
>>
> The exception is they are Canadian - I buy them anyway!
> Dave
>
>


Lie Nielsen is in Maine, which is in the US, albeit barely. <G>

[email protected] wrote:
> For me, Canada and Chiawan are
> about the same politically or any other way when it
> comes to tool purchases and supporting USA
> companies.

Wow...

Have you ever left the village?

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...

>It really reinforces the importance of buying from vendors/manufacturers who
>will provide decent support.
>
>Do I just have crappy luck? Are my expectations unrealistic? What's your
>batting average?

i just last week returned, for exchange, a spiral cutterhead for my grizzly 6"
jointer. after the initial need to bore out and elongate the holes in the cast
iron to accept the larger and closer spaced bearing block bolts, i turned on
the machine only to hear on "odd" sound. i thought that perhaps the
combination of a spiral cutterhead and my ear protection may have been the
culprit. i shut down the jointer, took off the ear protection, and restarted
it few times. definately didn't sound right.

i removed removed the cutterhead and, as soon as i did, the front bearing
slipped out of the block. there was a hairline crack in the bearing block.

i shot off an e-mail to grizzly and they promptly gave me an RMA and told me to
include a receipt for the return shipping, which they would refund. (how many
companies do that?)

on a side note: the orignal bearing blocks on the jointer were pretty
substantion cast iron. the new one is made of a composite material, and
there's not much of it on the top side. i hope the next one doesn't crack.

anyone else have one of these new spiral (or indexed) cutterheads from grizzly?
--
regards,
greg (non-hyphenated american)
http://users.adelphia.net/~kimnach

Adopting the American attitude, are they?

"Chris Friesen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> The factory owners don't
> seem to have much pride in the quality of the product--money seems to be
> everything, and corners will be cut whenever they think they can get
> away with it.

> Chris

Stephen M wrote:
>
> While I will acknowledge that guano happens, that's a pretty sad batting
> average.
>
> It really reinforces the importance of buying from vendors/manufacturers who
> will provide decent support.
>
> Do I just have crappy luck? Are my expectations unrealistic? What's your
> batting average?

I usually buy heavy stuff locally, as I'm fortunate to have several
excellent dealers inside a 30 minute drive. I'm batting 1.000, as far
as broken parts go, but only so-so as far as "completeness" of sealed
packages. The only heavy items I've had shipped to me were a refurbed
SCMS, which was packed in pour-in foam by Tyler Tool, and a Jet
mini-lathe and stand. The pour-in expandable stuff is ugly, but it
seems to do a wonderful job protecting the contents.

My DJ-20 and X5 bandsaw were both missing large, heavy, show stopping
parts from sealed packages. I'm talking stuff like pullies, belt
guards, and the _TOP_ of the band saw's closed base. Once the tools
were made usable, I've been totally happy, but it took Delta 4 weeks+ on
the band saw, and 3 weeks on the jointer to make me whole. The thing
that really bugs me about missing major parts is that I know some other
industries weigh boxes (internal sub-packs & complete units) during the
packing process and can reliably ship things with many tiny parts, while
the tool industry can ship a box missing_25_ pounds or an 18x18 piece of
thick stamped steel! <G>

I've had good luck with Canadian-made General (no experience with
General International), DeWalt, Baldor, and Jet, but I've had only one
or two examples each, compared to six Delta tools. All of my hand-held
Bosch, PC, DeWalt, Makita, Senco, etc... power and air tools have been
perfect, so far...

I've seen the way the larger tools get delivered to my local vendors,
and have come to the conclusion that most, but certainly not all, of the
damage to big iron seems to happen during the retail to consumer ship,
rather than the wholesale to retailer ship.

On another note, I have the same Delta 12" sander, and aside than the
plastic adjusting levers making me leery, it's been a handy, dependable,
and often used tool. It reminds me of some good-quality specialty hand
planes, in the sense that you don't realize how handy it is until you've
got it.

On the other hand (pun intended), I've been completely satisfied, often
even thrilled, with every higher-end hand tool I've purchased, by
Veritas, Lie Nielsen, Starrett, Hirsch, Bessey, etc... While it seems
like the "mass-market" versions of those tools just get worse by the hour.

"Stephen M" wrote in message

that I have
> made, that have at least some cast iron components, (that eliminates hand
> tools and stuff like drills) have had either shipping damage or infancy
> problems that needed to be addressed by the manufacturer. (Delta, Jet,
> Woodcraft, Yorkcraft, Woodtek)
>
> While I will acknowledge that guano happens, that's a pretty sad batting
> average.
>
> It really reinforces the importance of buying from vendors/manufacturers
who
> will provide decent support.
>
> Do I just have crappy luck? Are my expectations unrealistic? What's your
> batting average?

I've been buying tools for a long time, so have some perspective. Even
discounting an old farts natural and advancing cynicism, things simply
"ain't what they used to be".

Not one Delta or PC tool I've bought in the last three years has not
suffered from some shoddy bit of manufacturing, design or value/price point
engineering issue.

Remember the "victory cigarettes" in Orwell's 1984? He was just off a few
years.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 5/6/06

If a pair of sneakers would last even two years, that would be a great deal.
Haven't worn them in years but, when I was in high school, I could go
through a pair in three weeks.

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Nike sneakers you paid over $100 for your kids, actually
> costs Nike $5 to manufacture in Viet Nam. Most of the cost is
> advertisement lik emulti million dollar endorsements to sport stars.
> Now ad in designed obsolescence into the product and expect your
> product to last max 3 years if you are lucky!

[email protected] wrote:
> B A R R Y wrote:
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>> Veritas has been about 50/50...their hand planes are wonderful, but so
>>> far the rest has been mixed. Often times they're either cheap steel,
>>> poor castings, or poor designs. Not everything, but enough to make me
>>> shop elsewhere often.
>> Which Veritas tools are you referring to?
>
> Their forstner bits, striking knife, and sliding bevel (4") were all
> big disappointments. The forstner bits were horribly machined and
> wouldn't drill flat-bottomed holes, the striking knife snapped under
> very very nominal pressure within the first week, and the sliding bevel
> won't hold it's setting no matter how tight you make it.

That sucks!

I'v been very happy with two of the bevels (4" & 10") and the striking
knife, but they're a few years old.

charlie b wrote:

> met The Wall Street Analysts' projected profits. Eventually
> you'll have to spend more money on advertising to try
> and persuade the consumer that you've got a New and
> Improved product - that's not as crappy as your competitors.

Ack, "New and Improve"-ing is the device and moniker by which those
marginal profit gains are foisted on the unsuspecting buyer.

I've eaten breakfast cereal and wiped my bum long enough to've seen this
happen in many industries.

er
--
email not valid

"Chris Friesen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> If a company ships me a defective product, them paying the shipping is the
> absolute *minimum* that I would expect. Better would be some additional
> benefits to make up for the hassle of the thing being defective in the
> first place.

I like the product you buy for $4 with a lifetime guarantee. Just send it
back along with $5 for handling and we'll send a new one.

[email protected] wrote:
>
> Veritas has been about 50/50...their hand planes are wonderful, but so
> far the rest has been mixed. Often times they're either cheap steel,
> poor castings, or poor designs. Not everything, but enough to make me
> shop elsewhere often.

Which Veritas tools are you referring to?

"Teamcasa" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

<snip>

>> You mean Lee Valley? ;-) Lie-Nielsen is out of Maine. (Which,
>> having lived there for a short while, can be confused for Canada
>> quite easily...)
>>
> Lee Valley is also an exception. Your right! Lie-Nielsen is in Maine
> - For some reason I thought it was Canadian. Phew - I feel better
> now~ My new LN chisel plane is sitting on my workbench - still in its
> box - time to break it out and see how well it works!
>
> Dave
>

They work at least as well as any other chisel plane. And they look GREAT,
too!

I have one. It's a really nice decoration, 99% of the time.

Not the only tool I rarely use...

Patriarch

In article <[email protected]>, Enoch Root <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 2006-05-17, Doug Miller <[email protected]> ranted thusly:
>
>> But FIATs are even worse. Fix It Again Today. Fix It Again Tomorrow.
>
>I thought that was Fix It Again, Tony?

Yeah, that too.

Many years ago, there was a skit on Saturday Night Live featuring two guys
arguing over which of them was dumber (each maintaining that he himself was
dumber than the other). Ran something like this..

"Well, I did X"
"Yeah, well, I did Y"
"Oh, yeah? I did Z"
"I bought a FIAT"
[silence]

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
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<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> It is a disturbing fact indeed !. Companies are spending much too much
> $$$ on marketing and advertising to convince the consumer that their
> product is high quality and reliable instead of spending the money on a
> quality product. Why ???? to stay in business of course and sell you
> same product 2 - 3 years down the road when the old one breaks. Most
> people will be shocked to learn that 70 - 80 % of company cost for
> manufacturing a product is advertisemsnt/marketing cost.

Some - but certainly not most. The highest cost built into a product is
personel cost. Marketing and advertising is a much smaller percentage than
you think.


> As an example
> that new Nike sneakers you paid over $100 for your kids, actually
> costs Nike $5 to manufacture in Viet Nam. Most of the cost is
> advertisement lik emulti million dollar endorsements to sport stars.
> Now ad in designed obsolescence into the product and expect your
> product to last max 3 years if you are lucky!
>

I'd like to see Nike's balance sheet before I believe this.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Think so? I drove my 76 F250 for seventeen years. Think my 2004 Ranger will
last that long? Not likely.

"Teamcasa" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> Now,
> the quality of all cars is very good. However, save some Korean makers,
the
> cost of cars/trucks is high, relative to other products.
>
> Bottom line is as long as there is a market for cheap/poorly made
products,
> someone will make and sell them to us.
>
> Dave
>
>

On Tue, 16 May 2006 17:46:11 GMT, Brian Henderson
<[email protected]> wrote:


>Try that with a Ford. There's a reason they're Found On Road Dead.


Got a 1987 Ford F150 with 165,000 miles on it.

Been tuned once.

It spent most of the last two and a half years driving a three hundred
mile a week commute on the PA Turnpike.

Semi-retired it in November of last year when I bought a Honda Civic
to do the commuting.

Old truck started blowing white smoke and idled hard during a run for
a camping trip.

Put KW Block Sealer(poor mans gasket fix) in it and it has done four
camping/fishing trips since then - no white smoke - no rough idle.

4.9L Ford block. Limited Slip Differential ( the poor mans four wheel
drive)

Been an excellent road companion for enough years that the truck is
almost old enough to vote.

I will leave you with this message from the Gospel:


"Jesus was a Chevy man - that's why he walked everywhere."


Regards,

Tom Watson

tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

Snippage

> and the sliding bevel
> won't hold it's setting no matter how tight you make it.

While I agree that some Vertitas products are misses (try to use that an
aluminum dovetail saddle square gauge with a marking knife) I think the
sliding bevel is the neatest thing since sliced bread. (however I do own the
10")

I'd call 'm on that

-Steve


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"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 16 May 2006 17:46:11 GMT, Brian Henderson
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Try that with a Ford. There's a reason they're Found On Road Dead.
>
>
> Got a 1987 Ford F150 with 165,000 miles on it.
>
> Been tuned once.
>
> It spent most of the last two and a half years driving a three hundred
> mile a week commute on the PA Turnpike.
>
> Semi-retired it in November of last year when I bought a Honda Civic
> to do the commuting.
>
> Old truck started blowing white smoke and idled hard during a run for
> a camping trip.
>
> Put KW Block Sealer(poor mans gasket fix) in it and it has done four
> camping/fishing trips since then - no white smoke - no rough idle.
>
> 4.9L Ford block. Limited Slip Differential ( the poor mans four wheel
> drive)
>
> Been an excellent road companion for enough years that the truck is
> almost old enough to vote.
>
> I will leave you with this message from the Gospel:
>
>
> "Jesus was a Chevy man - that's why he walked everywhere."
>
>

Had an '84 E150, 4.9L 4 spd. OD, over 200K when we gave up on it(NY cancer),
'89 F150, 4.9L auto, over 200K when we gave it up(NY Cancer), now have a '95
F150, 4.9L auto over 150K, I've had it for 15 mo. and only major thing is
new oil pan. Runs well, uses no discernible oil. I must confess though, it's
for sale. We're deserting the Ford camp, but not because of any
dissatisfaction with them.

SWMBO has retired, we traded her '98 F150, 4.6L Triton V8 w/ 90K(only
problem we had with it was new transmission valve body to tune of $700) for
an '01 Ram2500 quad cab, Cummins & auto. We go pick up our new Mountaineer
5th wheeler this Sat.

Main reason we went to the Ram is everything else we could find around here
in 3/4 or 1 ton was 4WD. I don't need no steenking 4WD!

--
Nahmie
The only road to success is always under construction.

"Teamcasa" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>
> No Mike I am not that naive. I just wish Delta would produce a domestic
> line that was top quality and somewhere close in price. Its not
impossible.
> I do however, buy domestic when ever I can. Lie-Nielson is an execption.
>

Sorry Dave - I did not intend a tone that suggested naivety. Likewise - I
would as well. I consistently pay a small premium just to buy locally, so I
would equally pay something of a premium to buy domestic production as well.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Or the "lifetime guarantee". Guaranteed for the life of the product. When
the product fails, it's life is over and so is the guarantee.

"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:RGFag.1257$rT5.267@trndny04...
>
> I like the product you buy for $4 with a lifetime guarantee. Just send it
> back along with $5 for handling and we'll send a new one.
>
>

On Thu, 18 May 2006 07:50:08 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>>
>> I will leave you with this message from the Gospel:
>>
>>
>> "Jesus was a Chevy man - that's why he walked everywhere."
>>
>
>Yeah, yeah, yeah. And of course you do know what the towing package is on a
>new Ford right?
>
>
>... A Chevy!


I don't own a new Ford.


But I did own a 1974 Chevy C-10 that would have run forever if the
body panels hadn't rusted all to shit in three years.

That straight six was a runner - but the metal of the body sucked.

That's how I became a Ford man.


Regards,

Tom Watson

tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> But I did own a 1974 Chevy C-10 that would have run forever if the
> body panels hadn't rusted all to shit in three years.
>
> That straight six was a runner - but the metal of the body sucked.
>
> That's how I became a Ford man.
>

Had a '76 Ford F150. It would still be running if the body had not rusted
all to shit. Doors, bed, fenders all with large holes. Now have a Chevy
Silverado. I think they were all pretty much crap back them, all are much
better these days.

In article <[email protected]>, "George" <George@least>
wrote:

> Obviously you're caught back in time. With leadless gas and current
> plugs/ignition, the recommended interval for "tuneups" is 100,000. Timing
> and "carburetion" are done continuously.

Perhaps, but Tom is talking about an 19 year old vehicle. The computers
and sensors of 20 years ago can't even come close to what's monitoring
an engine today.
--
Owen Lowe
The Fly-by-Night Copper Company
__________

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the
Corporate States of America and to the
Republicans for which it stands, one nation,
under debt, easily divisible, with liberty
and justice for oil."
- Wiley Miller, Non Sequitur, 1/24/05

In article <[email protected]>,
Tom Watson <[email protected]> wrote:

> Been tuned once.

Don't know if that's something to be proud of or not. Could be something
similar to, "My car's got 20,000 miles and only had one oil change." Or,
"After 10 years, I have yet to wash the truck." Just because one can
boast about something, doesn't mean the vehicle hasn't suffered from
lack of care.
--
Owen Lowe
The Fly-by-Night Copper Company
__________

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the
Corporate States of America and to the
Republicans for which it stands, one nation,
under debt, easily divisible, with liberty
and justice for oil."
- Wiley Miller, Non Sequitur, 1/24/05

In article <[email protected]>,
"RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote:

> > But I got to thinking that 5 out of the last 5 tool purchases that I have
> > made, that have at least some cast iron components, (that eliminates hand
> > tools and stuff like drills) have had either shipping damage or infancy
> > problems that needed to be addressed by the manufacturer. (Delta, Jet,
> > Woodcraft, Yorkcraft, Woodtek)
>
> It's not just tools. I'm in the building business and I'm constantly
> getting compromised packages.
>
SNIP
> The second is that more and more of the tools are coming from further
> away. Half a world away. With all of the added handling and potential
> for damage.
>
> The third is the company's decision on what constitutes acceptable
> losses during shipping. If the company built reinforced crates to ship
> everything, everything would arrive unscathed. Unfortunately that's an
> expensive way to go. So they cut back on the packaging. The bean
> counters determine the sweet spot between damage and packaging costs.

I could very well be mistaken, but I think much of this has to do with
this new way of buying tools online through places like Amazon. I had a
Jet 12" disk sander delivered last year, ordered through Amazon and
delivered by UPS (I believe). The sander arrived almost unscathed - very
minor dent in the metal cover underneath the table - but the box was
practically destroyed and falling apart.

The sander weighs something like 70 pounds and, I believe, isn't
packaged for individual shipment. Stacked on a pallet, fork lifted to a
store inventory shelf and carted to a customer's vehicle at the
brick'n'mortar store, yes, the packaging is just fine. However, placed
in the shipping stream of manual handling on and off conveyors, roller
transports, trucks and the like, that solitary heavy package is
subjected to much more bumps, bangs and general wear than the packaging
is made for.

I agree, it is frustrating to have to get replacement parts on a new
item and then wait to use it in some cases - but I guess we could offer
to pay more for better crating protection... nah, that ain't gonna
happen.
--
Owen Lowe
The Fly-by-Night Copper Company
__________

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the
Corporate States of America and to the
Republicans for which it stands, one nation,
under debt, easily divisible, with liberty
and justice for oil."
- Wiley Miller, Non Sequitur, 1/24/05

On Mon, 15 May 2006 22:04:50 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>I have owned GM products that have all gone over 200,000 miles (unless they
>got wrecked first), with no major component replacements, consistently. My
>norm for a car is between 200,000 and 250,000. My cars look good when I get
>rid of them and they all run good. 200,000 out of a GM is nothing
>surprising.

Try that with a Ford. There's a reason they're Found On Road Dead.

>Now that's more surprising. 60's vehicles typically didn't go that long
>without some major repairs.

I don't know, back when I was younger, I bought my great-grandmother's
'67 Caddy Sedan de Ville with over 140k on it and drove the heck out
of it for a while and it ran well over 200k before I got rid of it.
Not bad for a car I spent $150 on, huh?

[email protected] wrote:
>
> On the other hand, four of the seven Starrett tools I've bought were
> crap, and a fifth was good but had obviously been "price pointed."
> Starrett ain't what they used to be. To my mind they are the next
> Stanley.
>

That sucks to hear that!

I just got rid of a 76 F250 about six months ago. Minor rust but nothing
serious. I live in Seattle, not really a low rust city.

"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:o6kbg.1$PX3.0@trndny09...
>
> Had a '76 Ford F150. It would still be running if the body had not rusted
> all to shit. Doors, bed, fenders all with large holes. Now have a Chevy
> Silverado. I think they were all pretty much crap back them, all are much
> better these days.
>
>