"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Leon wrote:
>
> Why would an insurance company give a discount for a piece of equipment
> that
> is required by law to be present?
Fewer personal injury claims. There are different degrees of air bag
coverage. The more you have the better. 2 years ago our 2000 VW Passat had
air bags front and front side. Our 2004 Accord has Front and front and
back side air bags and overhead side airbags. The Honda was a more
expensive car by about 10% and our insurance on that car has dropped about
$300 per year on that vehicle and there have been no claims or traffic
violations in the last 8 years.
My understanding is that if any embedded metal touches the blade it
will activate the stop mechanism. Also wet or green lumber can also
trigger it. Basically I think anything that has a lower resistance than
dry wood will result in activation, so maybe some painted and laminated
surfaces will trip it as well.
I'm researching the SawStop for purchase by a school district and have
contacted the manufacture directly and received a reply, but I still
don't have a reliable answer to some questions. Like what happens with
a fast feed rate? On their website (www.sawstop.com) they have a video
that shows a hotdog being pushed into the blade and the result of the
blade stopping just nicking the surface of the hotdog, but nowhere is
it mentioned the feed rate a which this demonstration was done.
Also, they don't have any data (at least none that they would share
with me) related to kickbacks. As I'm sure everyone here is aware the
speed at which a kickback occurs, I have doubts on the usefulness of
the SawStop mechanism in a kickback situation.
Mort
Joe Bemier wrote:
> I was at the yard where I get most of my pine yesterday and I
> overheard a conversation about Saw Stop. One of the guys was saying
> that the Saw Stop safety mechanism will sometimes engage when no
> hand/finger/whatever touched the blade.
> Any of you guys have experience with Saw Stop?
>
> Thanks,
> J
Joe Bemier wrote:
> On 9 Jul 2006 12:21:44 -0700, "Mort Stevens" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >I'm researching the SawStop for purchase by a school district and have
> >contacted the manufacture directly and received a reply, but I still
> >don't have a reliable answer to some questions. Like what happens with
> >a fast feed rate? On their website (www.sawstop.com) they have a video
> >that shows a hotdog being pushed into the blade and the result of the
> >blade stopping just nicking the surface of the hotdog, but nowhere is
> >it mentioned the feed rate a which this demonstration was done.
> Considering the cost of replacement of the mechanism I would need to
> feel confident that the thing is not going to trigger due to say
> *imperfections* of some kind.
Forget the cost of the mechanisms. Even if they trigger once a week
your insurer is certain to order you to upgrade as soon as the
insurance contract re-ups. One trip to the emergency room with a
student will buy one heck of a lot of cartridges and blades.
The review I read stated there was a test mechanism you could use to
see if the machine was likely to trigger.
Joe Bemier wrote:
> I was at the yard where I get most of my pine yesterday and I
> overheard a conversation about Saw Stop. One of the guys was saying
> that the Saw Stop safety mechanism will sometimes engage when no
> hand/finger/whatever touched the blade.
> Any of you guys have experience with Saw Stop?
>
> Thanks,
> J
A google search of rec.woodworking will turn up a thread a few months
ago.
In this thread a small commercial shop had some mis-fires that were
eventually diagnosed to one particular employee. A filter sent free of
charge by Sawstop, prevented further mis-fires, and a few days later
this same employee had his thumb saved by the mechanism.
Alan
I was thinking more in terms of what would happen if the kickback would
take your hand into the blade, would the mechanism activate fast enough
to prevent serious injury.
Mort
John Grossbohlin wrote:
> The riving knife is for the kickbacks.... not the SawStop mechanism. On that
> note look up information on kickbacks and riving knives and you will find
> that they are effective (if you actually use it!).
>
> John
J. Clarke wrote:
> > Forget the cost of the mechanisms. Even if they trigger once a week
> > your insurer is certain to order you to upgrade as soon as the
> > insurance contract re-ups.
>
> Do you have any incident to relate in which an insurer "ordered" a school
> district to replace all of its non-sawstop saws?
Not yet, but my work is in the risk management field. It is close to
being a metaphysical certainty that the insurers will do this as soon
as they realize that there is an option.
The cost of replacing a table saw with a saw stop is trivial, $3500 is
nothing compared to the cost of a negligence lawsuit. The risk of
injury is clearly very high, the cost of the injury anywhere up to a
million dollars or so (kid loses hand).
If you want to make something happen fast there are two ways to do it,
either you make it an audit requirement or you make it an insurance
requirement.
Doug Miller wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, "Mort Stevens" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >I was thinking more in terms of what would happen if the kickback would
> >take your hand into the blade
>
> This seems unlikely, to say the least -- since kickback moves *away* from the
> blade.
According to an article I read the classic injury pattern is that the
material being kicked back strikes the operator on the left hand side
of their torso causing them to pivot about their right foot bringing
their right hand forward and across the blade.
If the object hits you square in the chest then maybe you go backwards.
But a glancing blow is going to send you spinning and even if your
center of mass is going backwards your body is still moving forwardsl.
Joe Bemier wrote:
> Any of you guys have experience with Saw Stop?
>
> Thanks,
> J
I think some of the concerns folks have relate to it providing a false
sense of security. You still need to treat with the same respect as any
other tablesaw. It can, and will, kickback with some impressive force.
It's like airbags in a car. You still need a seatbelt. You still need
to drive safely.
People that don't fasten their seatbelts because, "I've got airbags,"
or are careless with their table saw because, "It's a SawStop," are
just accidents waiting to happen. Like Ron White says: "You can't fix
stupid."
That said, I've been running one for about 6 months now and have had no
misfires to date. I consider it a worthwhile investment on 2 fronts:
1) If I should have an attack of stupidity, it should, at the very
least, leave me fixable.
2) It gives SWMBO peace of mind when I'm down in the shop.
One parting FYI, SawStop and Freud dados reportedly do not play well
together. Something like the Freud being a bit smaller than 8" and not
supplying a strong enough signal to prevent false positives. The
SawStop rep said the Forrester dado was known to work, so I went with
that instead of the Freud. This may have been fixed by now, but as I
have a working dado, I have no inclination to persue it.
dcm
Leon wrote:
> "Devon Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> Snip
>
> The SawStop rep said the Forrester dado was known to work, so I went with
> > that instead of the Freud.
>
> Subaru makes dado blades now? :~)
A drum set falls down the hill -- barump bum.
Yeah, my bad, that should have been Forrest as in Forrest Dado King,
not Forrester as in 4-wheel drive.
dcm
Doug Miller wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, "Mort Stevens" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >I was thinking more in terms of what would happen if the kickback would
> >take your hand into the blade
>
> This seems unlikely, to say the least -- since kickback moves *away* from the
> blade.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
>
> It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
unless you're reaching over the blade.
we all know we're not supposed to do that, but sometimes I find myself
doing it anyway.
Brian Henderson wrote:
> On 10 Jul 2006 11:06:27 -0700, "Phillip Hallam-Baker"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >According to an article I read the classic injury pattern is that the
> >material being kicked back strikes the operator on the left hand side
> >of their torso causing them to pivot about their right foot bringing
> >their right hand forward and across the blade.
>
> Exactly how do you go across the blade if you're using a blade guard?
> You'd hit the side of the guard, not the blade. The only real way to
> hit the blade, assuming you're using the guard properly, is to go from
> the front, under the guard.
>
> Of course, if you're stupid enough not to use the guard, you deserve
> what happens to you.
The default guard is usually mounted on a splitter that should go a
long way to prevent the kickback in the first place...
To answer the question about insurance issues. Sure folk can self
insure, but if you self insure without understanding the risks its a
fool's choice.
There is something of a difference between a saw in the hands of an
experienced professional and a saw in a room full of teens... I am
surprised that anyone wants to go in for that particular job.
CW wrote:
> If a kick back takes your hand into the blade, you're feeding from the wrong
> end of the saw.
>
Hi
A common result of kickbacks is that a saw operator will reflexively
push down on a workpiece that starts to lift off the table (No, I can't
quote my source, but OHSA will back me up.). My FIL worked with a very
experienced carpenter who did this and rip cut his hand between his 3rd
and 4th fingers.
SawStop won't eliminate kickbacks, but it should stop the blade if you
push your meaty hand into it.
Play safe
drifwood
If a kick back takes your hand into the blade, you're feeding from the wrong
end of the saw.
"Mort Stevens" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I was thinking more in terms of what would happen if the kickback would
> take your hand into the blade, would the mechanism activate fast enough
> to prevent serious injury.
>
>
> Mort
>
>
> John Grossbohlin wrote:
> > The riving knife is for the kickbacks.... not the SawStop mechanism. On
that
> > note look up information on kickbacks and riving knives and you will
find
> > that they are effective (if you actually use it!).
> >
> > John
>
"Phillip Hallam-Baker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> J. Clarke wrote:
>
> > > Forget the cost of the mechanisms. Even if they trigger once a week
> > > your insurer is certain to order you to upgrade as soon as the
> > > insurance contract re-ups.
> >
> > Do you have any incident to relate in which an insurer "ordered" a
school
> > district to replace all of its non-sawstop saws?
>
> Not yet, but my work is in the risk management field. It is close to
> being a metaphysical certainty that the insurers will do this as soon
> as they realize that there is an option.
>
> The cost of replacing a table saw with a saw stop is trivial, $3500 is
> nothing compared to the cost of a negligence lawsuit. The risk of
> injury is clearly very high, the cost of the injury anywhere up to a
> million dollars or so (kid loses hand).
>
> If you want to make something happen fast there are two ways to do it,
> either you make it an audit requirement or you make it an insurance
> requirement.
>
If that's the case, insurance companies would have mandated air bags in
cars, no smoking in homes, etc.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Joe and all,
I manage a student shop in a college of architecture.
We've been running 2 of the first sawstops since Jan 05.
In the 18 months we've had the saws, the stopping mechanisms have
triggered 8 or 9 times. So basically ~$50/month insurance policy. All
but one have been user error: 1 chicken leg, 3 aluminum miter
gauge/x-cut fence, 2 gap distance (between blade and brake cartridge), 1
foil backed foam, 1 aluminum sheet (forgot bypass), 1 green treated
plywood. Hopefully we have fewer triggers as we and our our users learn
where we need to change our modus operandi. Sawstop has given us maybe
3 free brake cartridges for our trouble. They have diagnosed
"triggered" brake cartridges and called us with an explaination of what
probably caused the event (green treated, gap distance).
If conductive materials are embedded in a piece of wood, the sawstop
will not necessarily go off. In order for the brake to trigger, a
circuit must be completed, so unless the metal contacts both the blade
AND the saw table (or the operator) it won't go off. When I initially
tested the machine, I cut through dozens of nails and staples that were
clear of the table or my hand. the saw cut through them with no problem.
A couple months ago, the sawstop was demonstrated at a meeting of the
minnesota woodworkers guild. Unsatisfied with the usual hot dog test,
the demonstrator turned it up a notch. A 2' long summer sausage was
swung into the blade like a baseball bat. The blade got about 3/8" into
the sausage. I cannot imagine any circumstance in which a saw operator
could move into the blade as rapidly as that summer sausage.
I continue to be impressed with the quality of these machines, and look
forward to additional offerings from sawstop. Staven Gass recently
mentioned that the "other" saw manufacturers are settling sawstop
related lawsuits. I think it is only a matter of time until they
license the system or develop something of their own. Basically, I
think it will become too expensive for them not to improve the safety of
their offerings.
Good Luck
Kevin Groenke
[email protected]
Here are some comments I posted previously.
> The SawStop cabinet saw is the best cabinet saw on the market.
>
> Below are impressions I've previously posted regarding the 2 SawStop cabinet saws that we've had running since January.
>
> original posts are here
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/archmanagers/messagesearch?query=sawstop
>
> here is some other info
> http://www.just4fun.org/woodworking/tool_reviews/sawstop/
> http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/forums/swmf.pl?read=386698
> http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/search/search.cgi#reference
>
>
> The only thing I would add is that customer service from the folks at SawStop has been great. We've had a couple more triggers, each time we've contacted SawStop to let them know what had happened. On the occasions of a false positive, or other technical problem, SawStop has sent replacement brakes and addressed any problem. Each of the "triggers" was technically our fault, we should have known that the SawStop would have been activated (blade/brake clearance, green treated ply, foil faced foam) and should have by-passed the mechanism. SawStop has taken back the spent brakes to analyze the data and has sent us more new brakes than we've deserved. As they should be, the saws are still like new.
>
>
> INITIAL IMPRESSIONS
> quality -
>
> These machines seem are built much better than the unisaw that we bought 4 years ago(not saying much really). An extension table flatness problem has been mentioned, but our tables and rt wings are flat within .010". We never put on the left wings since we installed sliding tables, so I cannot speak to that issue. The trunnions, arbor shaft, bearings, and even the main table are beefier than comparable parts on a unisaw and a pm 66.
> The polished handwheels are big and heavy with very nicely spinning cranks. Height & angle adjustment are smooth and easy (of course the machines are brand new, so they better be) .
> I'd like a polished tabletop, and these are just ground, but that will make the first scratches less painful.
> The machines are smoother and quieter than the last unisaw was when new.
> A nickel sits on edge on the tabletop from start up through cutting 8/4 maple through shut down.
> Initial indications are that these machines are well made. - time will tell.
> design -
> There is alot going on inside of these saws.
> I like the linear (rather than arc) raising action, it seems much more intuitive even if more complicated.
> A gas spring supports the arbor and assists blade raising.
> The splitter/blade guard/riving knife is EXCELLENT - easy to change, easy to adjust, and wedded to blade height like it should be.
> The blade guard itself is only about 1-1/4" wide and contoured to "hug" the blade- much less obtrusive than traditional guards.
> We will likely ALWAYS use the riving knife and the overhead blade guard. I expect significantly fewer kickbacks as a result of the "invisible" riving knife.
> The brake cartridge is not the easiest thing to change- but it will probably become easier as we do it.
> The extension table is gloss black laminate. Black? Gloss? Can you say glare? We will probably start with sanding out the gloss, then get rid of the black if it is still too annoying. Sawstop took the color theme WAY too far here.
> I look forward to seeing how the DC shroud works, but this is an arbor nutsucker waiting to happen.
> What happens to the dust that gets past the DC shroud, how much dust will build up inside the cabinet, how hard will it be to get out?
> If the DC shroud is effective, it should keep all of the other parts cleaner for smooth operation and less wear.
> The large access door should allow enough access to service the saw, but it's under the extension table, so it still won't be easy.
> The belt access door seems appropriate, not sure about the single splined belt - seems a bit light.
> The bump switch is well located and a good size, after not much use, we should be able to easily shut off the saw, but it will be a while before we stop doing so inadvertently. The arbor/arbor nut wrenches are WAY TOO BIG, this will encourage overtightening and our ARBORS will be STRIPPED in no time. Are you reading this Steve?
> The fence is a biesmeyer clone - faces are replaceable with "keyhole slots" - this is ok, but I don't really feel that they are flat/secure with no way to tighten them.
> Rare earth magnets on the fence lever and dust shroud door are nice details, as is the "soft" fence handle.
> The "power disconnect switch" is on the rear of the left side of the cabinet (beneath our sliding table) this is too hard to get to for routine blade changes etc...
> In order to get inside the cabinet to change the brake/make adjustments, the throat opening is larger than a unisaw's. This is ok access-wise, but having less of a smooth, flat tabletop can be problematic.
> The process to "by-pass" the sawstop mechanism must be done each time the saw started in by-pass.- a pain if we're cutting a bun of aluminum all day.
> issues-
> We occasionally used 8 1/4" thin kerf (3/64") blades for slotting and making scale lumber - sawstop requires 10" blades or 8" dadoes.
> Hmmm, if we use the dado brake and an 8-1/4" blade...
> We need to explain to 500 college students why and how the saws are different.
> Gloss black extension table?
> Separate arbor nut/washer invites droppage into dust collection and "washerless" re-installation. (We had welded a washer to a nut to eliminate this on unisaws)
> I have to get rid of 2 old unisaws, 1 jet sliding table and 1 excalibur bladeguard.
> The height of the back fence rail makes it impossible to mount a flush outfeed table (same as biesmeyer). I re-drilled and lowered, now 1 of the doors doesn't open past he rail, arggggh.
>
> MORE IMPRESSIONS
> (after a month or two of use)
>
> These are very nice saws.
> They are smooth, quiet, and basically a pleasure to use, definitely comparable+ to a PM66.
> To date our students have had few problems making the switch from the unisaws.
> The riving knife is great!: easy to change, never in the way and effectively keeps stock going in a straight line.
> I sanded the gloss off of the extension tables and they are ok now.
> After 15-20 brake cartridge changes it is pretty second nature (this is just an issue of learning where the "locating pins" are).
> Arbor nuts/washers drop directly into the hose attached to the "dust shroud" we have enough suction to move the nuts to the most inaccessible part of the DC pipe. I suppose it's time for an access port.
> We LOVE the paddle switch, a machine has never been so easy to shut off.
> The "power disconnect switch" however is on the bottom back corner of the left side of the cabinet and is a pain to get to with the sliding table attached to the saw, oh well.
>
> Now that SawStops are in service, I suspect it won't be long before Delta/Jet/Grizzly get sued (and lose) because they failed to provide such a system. Perhaps they will be beating a path to SawStop for licensing sooner rather than later. Let the market decide I suppose, should be interesting to watch.
>
> THE TEST:
> SawStop provided us with a demo cartridge and we tested the SawStop on Thursday, January 13th.
>
> I cut a variety of materials such as: wood, plywood, melamine, acrylic, mdf. etc. I enabled the bypass and cut aluminum, green treated and stapled pine. When in bypass mode you will get a code in flashing lights indicating whether the SawStop would have triggered. The lights indicated that the SawStop WOULD NOT have been triggered by cutting the green treated or the stapled pine, so I proceeded to cut them with the SawStop on.
>
> I then got out the drumsticks and cut one in bypass mode. It's amazing how easy it is to cut through a drumstick, pretty gory and except for the lack of blood, not unlike a shop accident. I've always thought of doing this during shop orientations, but decided that it could encourage sophomoric actions (the last thing they need is encouragement).
>
> I'd been asked by some rec.woodworkers to push the stock rapidly into the blade in order to get an idea how much damage would be done in the case of a slip or similar accident.
>
> So to test the SawStop I jammed the drumstick into the blade nearly as fast is I could, the blade promptly disappeared and with virtually no resistance I proceeded to IMPALE the chicken leg onto the riving knife (oh the shame).
>
> RESULTS:
> SawStop works: the blade definitely stopped and definitely dropped (observers indicated that this happened too fast to discern). Since the drumstick was impaled on the riving knife, I have NO IDEA, how much damage the drumstick sustained from the blade before it's encounter with the riving knife. As you can imagine this was a little embarrassing. Here we've spent $6000 on saws that "save fingers", and I've got a chicken leg skewered by a chunk of steel, not so impressive.
>
> Coincidentally, the SawStop went off again the first time we tilted the blade as we had neglected to provide adequate clearance for the aluminum fence on the sliding table. DOH!!! Again observers were dumbfounded. Results: a tiny nick on the crosscutting fence.
>
> I was expecting a significant jolt/vibration/lurch of the saw when the SawStop was triggered, but aside from a solid THUD and the "disappearance" of blade, there are little dramatics.
>
>
> --
Joe Bemier wrote:
> I was at the yard where I get most of my pine yesterday and I
> overheard a conversation about Saw Stop. One of the guys was saying
> that the Saw Stop safety mechanism will sometimes engage when no
> hand/finger/whatever touched the blade.
> Any of you guys have experience with Saw Stop?
>
> Thanks,
> J
On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 19:10:07 GMT, "Leon"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Be careful throwing those rocks. Dado's are impossible on most TS that
>have the stock blade guard.
And since dado cuts do not protrude through the wood, it's not
possible to hit the blade while making a dado to begin with. Besides,
we're talking about kickback, that's damn hard to do while making a
dado cut.
On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 00:13:04 -0500, [email protected] ()
wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>J. Clarke <[email protected]> wrote:
>>Leon wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>
>>>> If that's the case, insurance companies would have mandated air bags in
>>>> cars, no smoking in homes, etc.
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, there are discounts for both however insurance companies cannot
>>> require you to do business with them. Air bags pay for themselves in
>>> insurance premium discounts.
>>
>>Why would an insurance company give a discount for a piece of equipment that
>>is required by law to be present?
>>
>>--
>>--John
>>to email, dial "usenet" and validate
>>(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
>
>It is still quite possible to buy a used car that is not equipped with
>air bags, or even seat belts for that matter. AFAIK there is no
>jurisdiction in the country that has required retrofitting either.
I think seat belts are required by law. At least when I went to have
my 1974 BMW 2002 inspected the guy checked out the seat belts saying
something like...."you never know with these older cars"
>
In article <[email protected]>,
J. Clarke <[email protected]> wrote:
>Leon wrote:
>
>>
>> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> If that's the case, insurance companies would have mandated air bags in
>>> cars, no smoking in homes, etc.
>>
>>
>> Well, there are discounts for both however insurance companies cannot
>> require you to do business with them. Air bags pay for themselves in
>> insurance premium discounts.
>
>Why would an insurance company give a discount for a piece of equipment that
>is required by law to be present?
>
>--
>--John
>to email, dial "usenet" and validate
>(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
It is still quite possible to buy a used car that is not equipped with
air bags, or even seat belts for that matter. AFAIK there is no
jurisdiction in the country that has required retrofitting either.
--
Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland
[email protected]
In article <[email protected]>,
Phillip Hallam-Baker <[email protected]> wrote:
<...previous quote snipped...>J. Clarke wrote:
<...snipped...>
>Not yet, but my work is in the risk management field. It is close to
>being a metaphysical certainty that the insurers will do this as soon
>as they realize that there is an option.
>
>The cost of replacing a table saw with a saw stop is trivial, $3500 is
>nothing compared to the cost of a negligence lawsuit. The risk of
>injury is clearly very high, the cost of the injury anywhere up to a
>million dollars or so (kid loses hand).
>
>If you want to make something happen fast there are two ways to do it,
>either you make it an audit requirement or you make it an insurance
>requirement.
>
In a school or training environment, I could probably be persuaded
that this was a good idea. But once the insurance companies "realize
that there is an option" it's not too far a stretch to see that other
tools could utilize this same technology. What happens when insurers
mandate that everything from tablesaws to grinders to routers and
circular saws are equipped with similar mechanisms? That $3500
multiplied by X might not be so trivial after all.
--
Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland
[email protected]
"Joe Bemier" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Sorry if it seems redundant - my search turned up some info but I did
> not see muc detail regarding *false stops* or false positives as you
> put it.
Some false stops reported here were due to a user using a particular
electronic watch that fooled the saw. IIRC the manufacturer sent a resistor
to ad to the saw to solve this problem.
In article <[email protected]>, Joe Bemier <[email protected]> wrote:
>I was at the yard where I get most of my pine yesterday and I
>overheard a conversation about Saw Stop. One of the guys was saying
>that the Saw Stop safety mechanism will sometimes engage when no
>hand/finger/whatever touched the blade.
>Any of you guys have experience with Saw Stop?
Oh, geez, here we go *again*. SawStop has been discussed here (and just plain
cussed) at great length _at_least_ three different times. :-b
Do a Google Groups search on this NG for Saw Stop (or SawStop, without the
space) and "false positive". I imagine you'll find a bit of info...
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
I can see it now. There are two things that could kill you during an
accident. Being killed by the impact or from being sqeezed into a thin
pencil shape by all the airbags.
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:%[email protected]...
>
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Leon wrote:
>
> >
> > Why would an insurance company give a discount for a piece of equipment
> > that
> > is required by law to be present?
>
>
> Fewer personal injury claims. There are different degrees of air bag
> coverage. The more you have the better. 2 years ago our 2000 VW Passat
had
> air bags front and front side. Our 2004 Accord has Front and front and
> back side air bags and overhead side airbags. The Honda was a more
> expensive car by about 10% and our insurance on that car has dropped about
> $300 per year on that vehicle and there have been no claims or traffic
> violations in the last 8 years.
>
>
In article <[email protected]>,
Brian Henderson <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 00:13:04 -0500, [email protected] ()
>wrote:
>
>>It is still quite possible to buy a used car that is not equipped with
>>air bags, or even seat belts for that matter. AFAIK there is no
>>jurisdiction in the country that has required retrofitting either.
>
>Many states require seat belts and cars cannot be sold without them.
>If you are not wearing a seat belt, even if they are not present, you
>will be ticketed and I wouldn't be surprised if a car without them
>wouldn't be impounded as unsafe on the spot.
Oh yeah, the last antique car rally I went to, the police were hauling
them away in car carriers...
--
Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland
[email protected]
"Mort Stevens" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> My understanding is that if any embedded metal touches the blade it
> will activate the stop mechanism. Also wet or green lumber can also
> trigger it. Basically I think anything that has a lower resistance than
> dry wood will result in activation, so maybe some painted and laminated
> surfaces will trip it as well.
You should do a little research before making these assumptions. According
to SawStop, wet lumber is not a problem.
>
> I'm researching the SawStop for purchase by a school district and have
> contacted the manufacture directly and received a reply, but I still
> don't have a reliable answer to some questions. Like what happens with
> a fast feed rate? On their website (www.sawstop.com) they have a video
> that shows a hotdog being pushed into the blade and the result of the
> blade stopping just nicking the surface of the hotdog, but nowhere is
> it mentioned the feed rate a which this demonstration was done.
A cut is better than an amputation.
>
> Also, they don't have any data (at least none that they would share
> with me) related to kickbacks. As I'm sure everyone here is aware the
> speed at which a kickback occurs, I have doubts on the usefulness of
> the SawStop mechanism in a kickback situation.
SawStop is not supposed to prevent kickbacks. That said however it is one
of the few brands that offer a riving knife in the US. You still have to
use you head, its still not a good idea to look down a gun barrel even
though the gun has a safety.
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> If that's the case, insurance companies would have mandated air bags in
> cars, no smoking in homes, etc.
Well, there are discounts for both however insurance companies cannot
require you to do business with them. Air bags pay for themselves in
insurance premium discounts.
"Mort Stevens" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I was thinking more in terms of what would happen if the kickback would
> take your hand into the blade, would the mechanism activate fast enough
> to prevent serious injury.
If that were possible, yes it would. The blade does not really care from
what direction it is touched to transfer the signal to engage the Stop.
"Devon Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Snip
The SawStop rep said the Forrester dado was known to work, so I went with
> that instead of the Freud.
Subaru makes dado blades now? :~)
"Joe Bemier" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Thanks, Mort - very useful.
> Also, very interesting that you should mention feed rate because those
> guys touched on that point and I did not recall it until I read your
> message.
> Considering the cost of replacement of the mechanism I would need to
> feel confident that the thing is not going to trigger due to say
> *imperfections* of some kind.
> Unfortunately, I was not able to get more info but it sounded like one
> of the guys owned the machine and was not happy with it.
>
> Good luck with your research. My concern with having these machies in
> a school would be that kids might develop a sense of security working
> on one and then go out into the real world and use a conventional saw
> and have an accident.
You know, I think I could watch that thing fire on 10 hot dogs and not
develop a sense of security to putting my hand into the blade.
todd
"Mort Stevens" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> My understanding is that if any embedded metal touches the blade it
> will activate the stop mechanism. Also wet or green lumber can also
> trigger it. Basically I think anything that has a lower resistance than
> dry wood will result in activation, so maybe some painted and laminated
> surfaces will trip it as well.
>
> I'm researching the SawStop for purchase by a school district and have
> contacted the manufacture directly and received a reply, but I still
> don't have a reliable answer to some questions. Like what happens with
> a fast feed rate? On their website (www.sawstop.com) they have a video
> that shows a hotdog being pushed into the blade and the result of the
> blade stopping just nicking the surface of the hotdog, but nowhere is
> it mentioned the feed rate a which this demonstration was done.
>
> Also, they don't have any data (at least none that they would share
> with me) related to kickbacks. As I'm sure everyone here is aware the
> speed at which a kickback occurs, I have doubts on the usefulness of
> the SawStop mechanism in a kickback situation.
The riving knife is for the kickbacks.... not the SawStop mechanism. On that
note look up information on kickbacks and riving knives and you will find
that they are effective (if you actually use it!).
John
In article <[email protected]>, "Mort Stevens" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>I was thinking more in terms of what would happen if the kickback would
>take your hand into the blade
This seems unlikely, to say the least -- since kickback moves *away* from the
blade.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
"Phillip Hallam-Baker" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> > Forget the cost of the mechanisms. Even if they trigger once a week
>> > your insurer is certain to order you to upgrade as soon as the
>> > insurance contract re-ups.
>>
>> Do you have any incident to relate in which an insurer "ordered" a
>> school district to replace all of its non-sawstop saws?
>
> Not yet, but my work is in the risk management field. It is close to
> being a metaphysical certainty that the insurers will do this as soon
> as they realize that there is an option.
>
> The cost of replacing a table saw with a saw stop is trivial, $3500 is
> nothing compared to the cost of a negligence lawsuit. The risk of
> injury is clearly very high, the cost of the injury anywhere up to a
> million dollars or so (kid loses hand).
>
> If you want to make something happen fast there are two ways to do it,
> either you make it an audit requirement or you make it an insurance
> requirement.
>
>
What would more likely happen in our district is that they would simply
close down the remaining shop programs, and retire the few shop teachers
still active.
A shame, too.
Patriarch
In article <[email protected]>, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>The United States Government requires that seat belts be installed, the
>states have no say in the matter.
Not quite right. Yes, it's the Federal government that requires the
manufacturers to install the belts, not the states -- but states certainly
*do* have the say over whether those belts are *used*.
> But a car made before the seat belt law
>will not be impounded, there was a grandfather clause.
>
>Further, I believe that the state laws requiring the wearing of seat belts
>have an exemption for vehicles that do not have them.
Minor correction: for vehicles that were manufactured without them. I don't
imagine you could avoid a ticket just by removing the belts from your
late-model car. :-)
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
"Brian Henderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 19:10:07 GMT, "Leon"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Be careful throwing those rocks. Dado's are impossible on most TS that
>>have the stock blade guard.
>
> And since dado cuts do not protrude through the wood, it's not
> possible to hit the blade while making a dado to begin with. Besides,
> we're talking about kickback, that's damn hard to do while making a
> dado cut.
After the wood goes through and is past the blades you are totally exposed
to the blades and using dado blades does not reduce the risk of kick back.
On 10 Jul 2006 12:52:57 -0700, "Devon Miller"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Joe Bemier wrote:
>> Any of you guys have experience with Saw Stop?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> J
>
>I think some of the concerns folks have relate to it providing a false
>sense of security. You still need to treat with the same respect as any
>other tablesaw. It can, and will, kickback with some impressive force.
>It's like airbags in a car. You still need a seatbelt. You still need
>to drive safely.
>
>People that don't fasten their seatbelts because, "I've got airbags,"
>or are careless with their table saw because, "It's a SawStop," are
>just accidents waiting to happen. Like Ron White says: "You can't fix
>stupid."
>
>That said, I've been running one for about 6 months now and have had no
>misfires to date. I consider it a worthwhile investment on 2 fronts:
>
>1) If I should have an attack of stupidity, it should, at the very
>least, leave me fixable.
>2) It gives SWMBO peace of mind when I'm down in the shop.
>
>One parting FYI, SawStop and Freud dados reportedly do not play well
>together. Something like the Freud being a bit smaller than 8" and not
>supplying a strong enough signal to prevent false positives. The
>SawStop rep said the Forrester dado was known to work, so I went with
>that instead of the Freud. This may have been fixed by now, but as I
>have a working dado, I have no inclination to persue it.
>
>dcm
Thanks very much, Devon - high value info.
On 10 Jul 2006 11:06:27 -0700, "Phillip Hallam-Baker"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>According to an article I read the classic injury pattern is that the
>material being kicked back strikes the operator on the left hand side
>of their torso causing them to pivot about their right foot bringing
>their right hand forward and across the blade.
Exactly how do you go across the blade if you're using a blade guard?
You'd hit the side of the guard, not the blade. The only real way to
hit the blade, assuming you're using the guard properly, is to go from
the front, under the guard.
Of course, if you're stupid enough not to use the guard, you deserve
what happens to you.
Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
>
> Joe Bemier wrote:
>> On 9 Jul 2006 12:21:44 -0700, "Mort Stevens" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>
>> >I'm researching the SawStop for purchase by a school district and have
>> >contacted the manufacture directly and received a reply, but I still
>> >don't have a reliable answer to some questions. Like what happens with
>> >a fast feed rate? On their website (www.sawstop.com) they have a video
>> >that shows a hotdog being pushed into the blade and the result of the
>> >blade stopping just nicking the surface of the hotdog, but nowhere is
>> >it mentioned the feed rate a which this demonstration was done.
>
>> Considering the cost of replacement of the mechanism I would need to
>> feel confident that the thing is not going to trigger due to say
>> *imperfections* of some kind.
>
> Forget the cost of the mechanisms. Even if they trigger once a week
> your insurer is certain to order you to upgrade as soon as the
> insurance contract re-ups.
Do you have any incident to relate in which an insurer "ordered" a school
district to replace all of its non-sawstop saws?
> One trip to the emergency room with a
> student will buy one heck of a lot of cartridges and blades.
>
> The review I read stated there was a test mechanism you could use to
> see if the machine was likely to trigger.
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> > Forget the cost of the mechanisms. Even if they trigger once a week
>> > your insurer is certain to order you to upgrade as soon as the
>> > insurance contract re-ups.
>>
>> Do you have any incident to relate in which an insurer "ordered" a school
>> district to replace all of its non-sawstop saws?
>
> Not yet, but my work is in the risk management field. It is close to
> being a metaphysical certainty that the insurers will do this as soon
> as they realize that there is an option.
>
> The cost of replacing a table saw with a saw stop is trivial, $3500 is
> nothing compared to the cost of a negligence lawsuit. The risk of
> injury is clearly very high, the cost of the injury anywhere up to a
> million dollars or so (kid loses hand).
>
> If you want to make something happen fast there are two ways to do it,
> either you make it an audit requirement or you make it an insurance
> requirement.
In other words "no". I suspect that any insurance company that told a
school district to replace a power tool with another one that was more
costly and didn't work any better would be told that their services would
no longer be required.
This assumes of course that they do not self-insure already.
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Leon wrote:
>
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> If that's the case, insurance companies would have mandated air bags in
>> cars, no smoking in homes, etc.
>
>
> Well, there are discounts for both however insurance companies cannot
> require you to do business with them. Air bags pay for themselves in
> insurance premium discounts.
Why would an insurance company give a discount for a piece of equipment that
is required by law to be present?
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Joe Bemier wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 00:13:04 -0500, [email protected] ()
> wrote:
>
>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>J. Clarke <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>Leon wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>
>>>>> If that's the case, insurance companies would have mandated air bags
>>>>> in cars, no smoking in homes, etc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Well, there are discounts for both however insurance companies cannot
>>>> require you to do business with them. Air bags pay for themselves in
>>>> insurance premium discounts.
>>>
>>>Why would an insurance company give a discount for a piece of equipment
>>>that is required by law to be present?
>>>
>>>--
>>>--John
>>>to email, dial "usenet" and validate
>>>(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
>>
>>It is still quite possible to buy a used car that is not equipped with
>>air bags, or even seat belts for that matter. AFAIK there is no
>>jurisdiction in the country that has required retrofitting either.
>
> I think seat belts are required by law. At least when I went to have
> my 1974 BMW 2002 inspected the guy checked out the seat belts saying
> something like...."you never know with these older cars"
Any car without seat belts would be more than 30 years old or would have had
them removed. While there are some around they are not commonplace and are
generally treated as collectables.
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Brian Henderson wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 00:13:04 -0500, [email protected] ()
> wrote:
>
>>It is still quite possible to buy a used car that is not equipped with
>>air bags, or even seat belts for that matter. AFAIK there is no
>>jurisdiction in the country that has required retrofitting either.
>
> Many states require seat belts and cars cannot be sold without them.
> If you are not wearing a seat belt, even if they are not present, you
> will be ticketed and I wouldn't be surprised if a car without them
> wouldn't be impounded as unsafe on the spot.
The United States Government requires that seat belts be installed, the
states have no say in the matter. But a car made before the seat belt law
will not be impounded, there was a grandfather clause.
Further, I believe that the state laws requiring the wearing of seat belts
have an exemption for vehicles that do not have them.
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 00:13:04 -0500, [email protected] ()
wrote:
>It is still quite possible to buy a used car that is not equipped with
>air bags, or even seat belts for that matter. AFAIK there is no
>jurisdiction in the country that has required retrofitting either.
Many states require seat belts and cars cannot be sold without them.
If you are not wearing a seat belt, even if they are not present, you
will be ticketed and I wouldn't be surprised if a car without them
wouldn't be impounded as unsafe on the spot.
On 10 Jul 2006 14:28:14 -0700, "Devon Miller"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Yeah, my bad, that should have been Forrest as in Forrest Dado King,
>not Forrester as in 4-wheel drive.
Heh, my first thought was "Dr. Clayton Forrester" of MST3K fame. :)
On 9 Jul 2006 12:21:44 -0700, in rec.woodworking, "Mort Stevens"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On their website (www.sawstop.com) they have a video
>that shows a hotdog being pushed into the blade and the result of the
>blade stopping just nicking the surface of the hotdog, but nowhere is
>it mentioned the feed rate a which this demonstration was done.
This was actually the first time I'd heard of this impressive system,
but http://www.sawstop.com/how-it-works-overview.htm says the
following about the hotdog video:
"The photo at the right shows what happens on a SawStop saw when a
hotdog (representing a finger) hits the spinning blade at a speed of
about 1 foot per second. "
Forrest
--
Forrest Anderson [email protected]
Edinburgh
Scotland
On Sun, 09 Jul 2006 21:30:11 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, Joe Bemier <[email protected]> wrote:
>>I was at the yard where I get most of my pine yesterday and I
>>overheard a conversation about Saw Stop. One of the guys was saying
>>that the Saw Stop safety mechanism will sometimes engage when no
>>hand/finger/whatever touched the blade.
>>Any of you guys have experience with Saw Stop?
>
>Oh, geez, here we go *again*. SawStop has been discussed here (and just plain
>cussed) at great length _at_least_ three different times. :-b
>
>Do a Google Groups search on this NG for Saw Stop (or SawStop, without the
>space) and "false positive". I imagine you'll find a bit of info...
Sorry if it seems redundant - my search turned up some info but I did
not see muc detail regarding *false stops* or false positives as you
put it.
"Joe Bemier" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I was at the yard where I get most of my pine yesterday and I
> overheard a conversation about Saw Stop. One of the guys was saying
> that the Saw Stop safety mechanism will sometimes engage when no
> hand/finger/whatever touched the blade.
> Any of you guys have experience with Saw Stop?
>
> Thanks,
> J
Most of the owners like the saw even though some have reported some false
stops. The manufacturer helped solve the problem. LeeValley is replacing
all of their work shop saws in their store with the SawStop.
FWIW I would much rather have a false stop than not have a stop when it is
suppose to stop.
"Brian Henderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 10 Jul 2006 11:06:27 -0700, "Phillip Hallam-Baker"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Of course, if you're stupid enough not to use the guard, you deserve
> what happens to you.
Be careful throwing those rocks. Dado's are impossible on most TS that
have the stock blade guard.
On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 13:03:41 -0500, Patriarch
<[email protected]> wrote:
>"Phillip Hallam-Baker" <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>
>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>>> > Forget the cost of the mechanisms. Even if they trigger once a week
>>> > your insurer is certain to order you to upgrade as soon as the
>>> > insurance contract re-ups.
>>>
>>> Do you have any incident to relate in which an insurer "ordered" a
>>> school district to replace all of its non-sawstop saws?
>>
>> Not yet, but my work is in the risk management field. It is close to
>> being a metaphysical certainty that the insurers will do this as soon
>> as they realize that there is an option.
>>
>> The cost of replacing a table saw with a saw stop is trivial, $3500 is
>> nothing compared to the cost of a negligence lawsuit. The risk of
>> injury is clearly very high, the cost of the injury anywhere up to a
>> million dollars or so (kid loses hand).
>>
>> If you want to make something happen fast there are two ways to do it,
>> either you make it an audit requirement or you make it an insurance
>> requirement.
>>
>>
>
>What would more likely happen in our district is that they would simply
>close down the remaining shop programs, and retire the few shop teachers
>still active.
>
>A shame, too.
>
>Patriarch
You're right - I've heard that tune before
"Joe Bemier" wrote in message
> I think seat belts are required by law. At least when I went to have
> my 1974 BMW 2002 inspected the guy checked out the seat belts saying
> something like...."you never know with these older cars"
That depends upon where you are. IIRC, Arkansas no longer requires minimum
vehicle safety inspections. In Texas only the law abiding are required to,
everyone else gets a surrogate hundred dollar bill inspected.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 6/21/06
On 9 Jul 2006 12:21:44 -0700, "Mort Stevens" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>My understanding is that if any embedded metal touches the blade it
>will activate the stop mechanism. Also wet or green lumber can also
>trigger it. Basically I think anything that has a lower resistance than
>dry wood will result in activation, so maybe some painted and laminated
>surfaces will trip it as well.
>
>I'm researching the SawStop for purchase by a school district and have
>contacted the manufacture directly and received a reply, but I still
>don't have a reliable answer to some questions. Like what happens with
>a fast feed rate? On their website (www.sawstop.com) they have a video
>that shows a hotdog being pushed into the blade and the result of the
>blade stopping just nicking the surface of the hotdog, but nowhere is
>it mentioned the feed rate a which this demonstration was done.
>
>Also, they don't have any data (at least none that they would share
>with me) related to kickbacks. As I'm sure everyone here is aware the
>speed at which a kickback occurs, I have doubts on the usefulness of
>the SawStop mechanism in a kickback situation.
>
>
>
>Mort
>
>Joe Bemier wrote:
>> I was at the yard where I get most of my pine yesterday and I
>> overheard a conversation about Saw Stop. One of the guys was saying
>> that the Saw Stop safety mechanism will sometimes engage when no
>> hand/finger/whatever touched the blade.
>> Any of you guys have experience with Saw Stop?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> J
Thanks, Mort - very useful.
Also, very interesting that you should mention feed rate because those
guys touched on that point and I did not recall it until I read your
message.
Considering the cost of replacement of the mechanism I would need to
feel confident that the thing is not going to trigger due to say
*imperfections* of some kind.
Unfortunately, I was not able to get more info but it sounded like one
of the guys owned the machine and was not happy with it.
Good luck with your research. My concern with having these machies in
a school would be that kids might develop a sense of security working
on one and then go out into the real world and use a conventional saw
and have an accident.
Also, I did not consider Kickbacks but I'll bet you are correct.
Thanks,
J
"Brian Henderson" wrote in message
> On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 19:10:07 GMT, "Leon"
> wrote:
>
> >Be careful throwing those rocks. Dado's are impossible on most TS that
> >have the stock blade guard.
>
> And since dado cuts do not protrude through the wood, it's not
> possible to hit the blade while making a dado to begin with. Besides,
> we're talking about kickback, that's damn hard to do while making a
> dado cut.
Not hard to do at all, IME... Freud even has dado stacks with an
anti-kickback feature, IIRC.
The slightest accidental twist (not hard to do because it generally takes
more force, both downward and into the blade, to push stock through a dado
stack) is all it takes ... particularly with those cuts requiring a miter
gage.
Not something pleasant to experience.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 6/21/06
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> That's a good one. Someone using a sawstop, but wearing a watch while
> operating it.
"Particular" electronic watch. Seems like it was a digital.
In article <[email protected]>,
Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Joe Bemier" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Sorry if it seems redundant - my search turned up some info but I did
>> not see muc detail regarding *false stops* or false positives as you
>> put it.
>
>
>Some false stops reported here were due to a user using a particular
>electronic watch that fooled the saw. IIRC the manufacturer sent a resistor
>to ad to the saw to solve this problem.
>
>
That's a good one. Someone using a sawstop, but wearing a watch while
operating it.
--
Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland
[email protected]
> Hello Stout - I did and my Reply is below.
If you did, you wouldn't be asking the same question that has been asked and
reanswered several times. Your question "Any of you guys have experience
with Saw Stop?". Googling Saw Stop alone would have revealed that, Yes,
several people have experience with Saw Stop. Your statements regarding the
"safety mechanism" and its tendency to engage with no flesh contact, has
also been discussed ad nauseam.
Your are more than welcome to ask this question on a daily basis (it's a
free world), but nevertheless I though my suggestion might be helpful.
Flame me if you want...
>Before I posted today I looked at the SS website (again) and then googled
>and yahoo'ed the subject.
> I was still not satisfied that I had an answer so I posted the specific
> question."
You weren't satisfied when you found out that several people have had
experience with Saw Stop?
On Sun, 09 Jul 2006 18:57:28 GMT, "Stoutman" <.@.> wrote:
>
>"Joe Bemier" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>I was at the yard where I get most of my pine yesterday and I
>> overheard a conversation about Saw Stop. One of the guys was saying
>> that the Saw Stop safety mechanism will sometimes engage when no
>> hand/finger/whatever touched the blade.
>> Any of you guys have experience with Saw Stop?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> J
>
>
>Google this group and you will see tons of discussion on this topic.
>
>
>
>
Hello Stout - I did and my Reply is below.
But, this does bring me to add my two cents on the subject of
*redundancy of topic* as this seems to come up from time-to-time.
I woulld suggest to you guys that there is nothing wrong with such
under certain (probably many) circumstances. At times I get the
feeling that once a Thread -with a particular Subject- has been posted
and run its course, that is supposed to close the door on the subject.
For example; because we had a post on Saw Stop I am supposed to search
and read. If I don't find an adequate answer to my currrent question
- too bad. This attitude assumes that everything anyone ever wanted to
know about the subject was contained within that original Thread and
there can be no further input, no new information, no additional
opinions, etc.
From my perspective this group has a significant number of members who
float in and out. It is possible that not everyone with something to
say added to that original message.
Further, in this case the subject deals with a rather new technology.
There might be new information.
In fact, I was here on the group when the thread passed through
earlier this year. Before I posted today I looked at the SS website
(again) and then googled and yahoo'ed the subject. I was still not
satisfied that I had an answer so I posted the specific question.
At the very least I can hope that the thread helps Mort make his
decision.
Cheers,
J
In article <[email protected]>, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Any car without seat belts would be more than 30 years old or would have had
>them removed.
Older than that, actually. Seat belts have been required equipment (in the
front seat, at least) for nearly *forty* years -- since 1968.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
In article <[email protected]>,
Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>
><[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> That's a good one. Someone using a sawstop, but wearing a watch while
>> operating it.
>
>
>"Particular" electronic watch. Seems like it was a digital.
>
>
I was speaking of the irony of using a saw stop equipped saw but not
taking the simple safety precaution of removing a watch.
--
Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland
[email protected]
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
>>
>>
>
> I was speaking of the irony of using a saw stop equipped saw but not
> taking the simple safety precaution of removing a watch.
Ooooohhhh..
I saw a demo at a wood show and they putshed the hot dog in at a really fast
feed rate. They operator said he wanted to be able so show at least a small
mark on the hotdot so he gave the sled that the hotdog on a real fast jolt
forward, way faster then you would ever feed wood. It was a real jolt. The
hotdog had a very small nick in the outercasing of the hotdog. It was so
small it almost didnt even cut through the outer casing. I imagine if it
was your finger you would not have a drop of blood even. It was really
amazing.
"Mort Stevens" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> My understanding is that if any embedded metal touches the blade it
> will activate the stop mechanism. Also wet or green lumber can also
> trigger it. Basically I think anything that has a lower resistance than
> dry wood will result in activation, so maybe some painted and laminated
> surfaces will trip it as well.
>
> I'm researching the SawStop for purchase by a school district and have
> contacted the manufacture directly and received a reply, but I still
> don't have a reliable answer to some questions. Like what happens with
> a fast feed rate? On their website (www.sawstop.com) they have a video
> that shows a hotdog being pushed into the blade and the result of the
> blade stopping just nicking the surface of the hotdog, but nowhere is
> it mentioned the feed rate a which this demonstration was done.
>
> Also, they don't have any data (at least none that they would share
> with me) related to kickbacks. As I'm sure everyone here is aware the
> speed at which a kickback occurs, I have doubts on the usefulness of
> the SawStop mechanism in a kickback situation.
>
>
>
> Mort
>
> Joe Bemier wrote:
>> I was at the yard where I get most of my pine yesterday and I
>> overheard a conversation about Saw Stop. One of the guys was saying
>> that the Saw Stop safety mechanism will sometimes engage when no
>> hand/finger/whatever touched the blade.
>> Any of you guys have experience with Saw Stop?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> J
>
"Joe Bemier" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I was at the yard where I get most of my pine yesterday and I
> overheard a conversation about Saw Stop. One of the guys was saying
> that the Saw Stop safety mechanism will sometimes engage when no
> hand/finger/whatever touched the blade.
> Any of you guys have experience with Saw Stop?
>
> Thanks,
> J
Google this group and you will see tons of discussion on this topic.
"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I can see it now. There are two things that could kill you during an
> accident. Being killed by the impact or from being sqeezed into a thin
> pencil shape by all the airbags.
No, I think suffocation. :~)