I'm thinking about dust collection and wondering if people see any
value to having a bag room or chamber where the filter media is housed
that has the ability to be opened to the outside. In the winter you
would close it up tight and expel the heated air back into the shop
(or maybe a heat capture unit of some sort) and then in the warmer
months you could just open it to the outdoors so as to avoid
recirculating any very fine dust. Or should I be shooting for
efficiencies that would make it unnecessary? The shop I work now is
simply awful and surely unhealthy. For my own, I want it clean.
JP
On Sat, 25 Feb 2012 22:58:27 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Puckdropper wrote:
>
>> As a bonus, you can get charcoal filters that
>> absorb some finishing odors.
>>
>
>On that one statement, please allow me to chime in. Forget about the notion
>of odors. Today's materials can present hazzards that you cannot detect
>with your olfactory sense. Robert has cautioned about this stuff enough
>that it's almost foolish to see a post about charcoal filters and absorbing
>odors. Not to be the voice of doom and gloom, but the stuff we deal with
>today is far more of a concern than finishing odors. Better living through
>chemestry and all that crap...
Yes, be sure to RTF label.
--
Courage and perseverance have a magical talisman, before
which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish into air.
-- John Quincy Adams
On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 09:45:52 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 2/29/2012 9:21 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
>> Don't you love that off gassing.
>>
>> I find that the Chinese products do that. Not from anywhere else.
>> I bought some new tires for a handcart (not used on a handcart though).
>> And they stink years later. They were made in China.
>> I have an air hose made in china, 2 years later, it still stinks...
>>
>> My made in the USA air hose never smelled.
That's logical. Hoses don't have noses. (couldn't help myself)
>Having worked in the automotive world in my past profession I started in
>the tire business while going to school, I eventually had my own tire
>store that I ran for Ameron Automotive Centers.
>
>Anyway, if you don't think rubber made anywhere else stinks, have a walk
>inside a tire ware house. I oddly have a very fond memory of that
>smell. And they still smell the same as they did in 1972.
Tires, huh? I fondly remember the smell of latex with Nonoxynol-9 on
it, myself. <domg>
--
...in order that a man may be happy, it is
necessary that he should not only be capable
of his work, but a good judge of his work.
-- John Ruskin
JayPique <[email protected]> wrote in news:942bfb6e-1de5-4773-ad17-
[email protected]:
> I'm thinking about dust collection and wondering if people see any
> value to having a bag room or chamber where the filter media is housed
> that has the ability to be opened to the outside. In the winter you
> would close it up tight and expel the heated air back into the shop
> (or maybe a heat capture unit of some sort) and then in the warmer
> months you could just open it to the outdoors so as to avoid
> recirculating any very fine dust. Or should I be shooting for
> efficiencies that would make it unnecessary? The shop I work now is
> simply awful and surely unhealthy. For my own, I want it clean.
> JP
Noise reduction would be a good reason to build a room or compartment for
the DC. Some DCs get hot while running, so they need a supply of air to
keep them cool.
Take a look at Bill Pentz's dust collection pages when you have a few
hours.
You might want to consider looking in to an air cleaner as well. Simple
ones can be made with box fans and furnace filters, but better ones
filter better and are much quieter. The air cleaner is just to clean the
air up after you get done working, it's not a second line of defense like
a DC. As a bonus, you can get charcoal filters that absorb some
finishing odors.
Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.
On Feb 26, 9:31=A0am, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Feb 2012 22:58:27 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >Puckdropper wrote:
>
> >> As a bonus, you can get charcoal filters that
> >> absorb some finishing odors.
>
> >On that one statement, please allow me to chime in. =A0Forget about the =
notion
> >of odors. =A0Today's materials can present hazzards that you cannot dete=
ct
> >with your olfactory sense. =A0Robert has cautioned about this stuff enou=
gh
> >that it's almost foolish to see a post about charcoal filters and absorb=
ing
> >odors. =A0Not to be the voice of doom and gloom, but the stuff we deal w=
ith
> >today is far more of a concern than finishing odors. =A0Better living th=
rough
> >chemestry and all that crap...
>
> Yes, be sure to RTF label.
>
> --
> Courage and perseverance have a magical talisman, before
> which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish into air.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 -- John Quincy Adams
Yebbut those labels are just legaleze, right? That stuff can't
acually hurt you. I hope.
JP
On Feb 25, 8:48=A0am, JayPique <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm thinking about dust collection and wondering if people see any
> value to having a bag room or chamber where the filter media is housed
> that has the ability to be opened to the outside. =A0In the winter you
> would close it up tight and expel the heated air back into the shop
> (or maybe a heat capture unit of some sort) and then in the warmer
> months you could just open it to the outdoors so as to avoid
> recirculating any very fine dust. =A0Or should I be shooting for
> efficiencies that would make it unnecessary? =A0The shop I work now is
> simply awful and surely unhealthy. =A0For my own, I want it clean.
> JP
I checked out a lot of stuff and I ordered the Clearvue cyclone system
(http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/) which has Bill Pentz's imprimatur.
(http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm). Reading Pentz's
site is pretty useful, IMNSHO. With the right good filter, you should
not have any fine dust in your shop.
Like you, I am concerned about losing heat, especially since I live in
the Yukon. However, I have to put the cyclone outside mainly because
of space and the ceiling height in my shop (7 feet). I rerouted the
filters back into the shop so I would not lose too much heat. I am
still building the system, so I don't know how it will pan out.
Luigi
Yes, but they lose it over time. This set of tires hasn't lost any of it.
And normally they smell different, this smells like it was burnt to a
crisp... Not the normal rubber smell. I know it is vulcanized, but these
babies are cooked....
I left them outdoors in the rain and sun, and nothing changed. Needless
to say it is one stinky cart..
On 2/29/2012 10:45 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 2/29/2012 9:21 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
>> Don't you love that off gassing.
>>
>> I find that the Chinese products do that. Not from anywhere else.
>> I bought some new tires for a handcart (not used on a handcart though).
>> And they stink years later. They were made in China.
>> I have an air hose made in china, 2 years later, it still stinks...
>>
>> My made in the USA air hose never smelled.
>
>
> Having worked in the automotive world in my past profession I started in
> the tire business while going to school, I eventually had my own tire
> store that I ran for Ameron Automotive Centers.
>
> Anyway, if you don't think rubber made anywhere else stinks, have a walk
> inside a tire ware house. I oddly have a very fond memory of that smell.
> And they still smell the same as they did in 1972.
On 2/29/2012 9:21 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
> Don't you love that off gassing.
>
> I find that the Chinese products do that. Not from anywhere else.
> I bought some new tires for a handcart (not used on a handcart though).
> And they stink years later. They were made in China.
> I have an air hose made in china, 2 years later, it still stinks...
>
> My made in the USA air hose never smelled.
Having worked in the automotive world in my past profession I started in
the tire business while going to school, I eventually had my own tire
store that I ran for Ameron Automotive Centers.
Anyway, if you don't think rubber made anywhere else stinks, have a walk
inside a tire ware house. I oddly have a very fond memory of that
smell. And they still smell the same as they did in 1972.
Don't you love that off gassing.
I find that the Chinese products do that. Not from anywhere else.
I bought some new tires for a handcart (not used on a handcart though).
And they stink years later. They were made in China.
I have an air hose made in china, 2 years later, it still stinks...
My made in the USA air hose never smelled.
On 2/28/2012 11:39 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 22:12:28 -0600, "woodstuff"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> "tiredofspam"<nospam.nospam.com> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Get multiple 55 gallon cans... then you can swap them out and in one
>>> operation empty multiple units out.
>>>
>>> If you live in the country it can be mixed in with mulch, if there is no
>>> walnut.
>>>
>> Your idea is good, but I have a small shop (1400 sq. ft) with the DC near
>> the corner and there is not much room to move around a barrel. What I do
>> now is to shovel the dust into another can with a contractor trash bag in it
>> and roll it out to the front door and put it into a wagon and go to the
>> dumpster. I think that I should just put up a lean-to shed on the side of
>> the building later. The duct work is really expensive for me right now, so
>> that all may just have to wait. Thanks for the input :-)
>
> I ordered a 50' length of flexible hose. It flops around when you
> start the DC, but it works just fine. $60 at Amazon. ($40 when I got
> it.) The vinyl was offgassing horribly when new, so I left it outside
> for a couple weeks. It didn't stink after that.
>
> --
> ...in order that a man may be happy, it is
> necessary that he should not only be capable
> of his work, but a good judge of his work.
> -- John Ruskin
Get multiple 55 gallon cans... then you can swap them out and in one
operation empty multiple units out.
If you live in the country it can be mixed in with mulch, if there is no
walnut.
On 2/27/2012 5:21 PM, woodstuff wrote:
> "Dr. Deb"<[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> JayPique wrote:
>>
>>> I'm thinking about dust collection and wondering if people see any
>>> value to having a bag room or chamber where the filter media is housed
>>> that has the ability to be opened to the outside. In the winter you
>>> would close it up tight and expel the heated air back into the shop
>>> (or maybe a heat capture unit of some sort) and then in the warmer
>>> months you could just open it to the outdoors so as to avoid
>>> recirculating any very fine dust. Or should I be shooting for
>>> efficiencies that would make it unnecessary? The shop I work now is
>>> simply awful and surely unhealthy. For my own, I want it clean.
>>> JP
>>
>>
>> Or, you could despense with the filter bag all together and duct the
> output
>> of your impeller into a small structure (mine looks like an outhouse)
>> outside the shop.
>>
>> This setup has two advantage
>>
>> !) It gets the dust outside the shop.
>>
>> 2) It drastically increases the CFM of your system.
>>
>> My system uses a cyclone (with a collection can) between the ports and a
> HF
>> impeller (cheap and it was actually taken off their largest DC) which then
>> ducts the fine dust outside the building.
>>
>> Deb
> Good Idea, Deb. I have a friend who vents his to the outside atmosphere
> through a wall and the noise level is much less, as most of the sound is
> through the exhaust. He has an Oneida similar to mine and both machines
> pick up most of the dust into the barrel anyway. I want to put my machine
> or at least the exhaust outside, as I live in the country.
>
> What I really want a setup, which would be beyond the requirements of most
> in this group, that would pump dust from the cyclone into an enclosed
> trailer, for reasons of convenience. I have dust going into a 55 gallon
> drum, and it seems like I spend a lot of time emptying it.and carting it to
> the dumpster. My profits haven't been high in recent years, so I have put
> this on the back burner, like a lot of other things.
>
>
On 2/25/2012 10:48 AM, JayPique wrote:
> I'm thinking about dust collection and wondering if people see any
> value to having a bag room or chamber where the filter media is housed
> that has the ability to be opened to the outside. In the winter you
> would close it up tight and expel the heated air back into the shop
> (or maybe a heat capture unit of some sort) and then in the warmer
> months you could just open it to the outdoors so as to avoid
> recirculating any very fine dust. Or should I be shooting for
> efficiencies that would make it unnecessary? The shop I work now is
> simply awful and surely unhealthy. For my own, I want it clean.
> JP
I dont find the noise of a DC any worse than a machine that it is
collecting dust from, so I see no need to isolate it. Unless you are
talking about a huge multimotor unit.
If you buy a DC with a pleated canister filter recirculating dust is not
much concern either. MY DC stays pretty much dust free on the outside
compared to most of my other equipment.
On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 20:12:16 -0800 (PST), Luigi Zanasi
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Feb 25, 8:48 am, JayPique <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I'm thinking about dust collection and wondering if people see any
>> value to having a bag room or chamber where the filter media is housed
>> that has the ability to be opened to the outside. In the winter you
>> would close it up tight and expel the heated air back into the shop
>> (or maybe a heat capture unit of some sort) and then in the warmer
>> months you could just open it to the outdoors so as to avoid
>> recirculating any very fine dust. Or should I be shooting for
>> efficiencies that would make it unnecessary? The shop I work now is
>> simply awful and surely unhealthy. For my own, I want it clean.
>> JP
>
>
>I checked out a lot of stuff and I ordered the Clearvue cyclone system
>(http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/) which has Bill Pentz's imprimatur.
>(http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm). Reading Pentz's
>site is pretty useful, IMNSHO. With the right good filter, you should
>not have any fine dust in your shop.
Crikey, $1,500 for almost-a-HEPA?
>Like you, I am concerned about losing heat, especially since I live in
>the Yukon.
Oh, don't worry, WeeGee. You live in the Yukon. You never had any
heat to begin with.
>However, I have to put the cyclone outside mainly because
>of space and the ceiling height in my shop (7 feet). I rerouted the
>filters back into the shop so I would not lose too much heat. I am
>still building the system, so I don't know how it will pan out.
Just insulate the hell out of the little shed you build around the
cyclone system and use a rubber gasket on the door. No biggie.
Congrats on the new toy, BTW.
--
Courage and perseverance have a magical talisman, before
which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish into air.
-- John Quincy Adams
JayPique wrote:
> I'm thinking about dust collection and wondering if people see any
> value to having a bag room or chamber where the filter media is housed
> that has the ability to be opened to the outside. In the winter you
> would close it up tight and expel the heated air back into the shop
> (or maybe a heat capture unit of some sort) and then in the warmer
> months you could just open it to the outdoors so as to avoid
> recirculating any very fine dust. Or should I be shooting for
> efficiencies that would make it unnecessary? The shop I work now is
> simply awful and surely unhealthy. For my own, I want it clean.
> JP
Or, you could despense with the filter bag all together and duct the output
of your impeller into a small structure (mine looks like an outhouse)
outside the shop.
This setup has two advantage
!) It gets the dust outside the shop.
2) It drastically increases the CFM of your system.
My system uses a cyclone (with a collection can) between the ports and a HF
impeller (cheap and it was actually taken off their largest DC) which then
ducts the fine dust outside the building.
Deb
Puckdropper wrote:
> As a bonus, you can get charcoal filters that
> absorb some finishing odors.
>
On that one statement, please allow me to chime in. Forget about the notion
of odors. Today's materials can present hazzards that you cannot detect
with your olfactory sense. Robert has cautioned about this stuff enough
that it's almost foolish to see a post about charcoal filters and absorbing
odors. Not to be the voice of doom and gloom, but the stuff we deal with
today is far more of a concern than finishing odors. Better living through
chemestry and all that crap...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 22:12:28 -0600, "woodstuff"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>"tiredofspam" <nospam.nospam.com> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Get multiple 55 gallon cans... then you can swap them out and in one
>> operation empty multiple units out.
>>
>> If you live in the country it can be mixed in with mulch, if there is no
>> walnut.
>>
>Your idea is good, but I have a small shop (1400 sq. ft) with the DC near
>the corner and there is not much room to move around a barrel. What I do
>now is to shovel the dust into another can with a contractor trash bag in it
>and roll it out to the front door and put it into a wagon and go to the
>dumpster. I think that I should just put up a lean-to shed on the side of
>the building later. The duct work is really expensive for me right now, so
>that all may just have to wait. Thanks for the input :-)
I ordered a 50' length of flexible hose. It flops around when you
start the DC, but it works just fine. $60 at Amazon. ($40 when I got
it.) The vinyl was offgassing horribly when new, so I left it outside
for a couple weeks. It didn't stink after that.
--
...in order that a man may be happy, it is
necessary that he should not only be capable
of his work, but a good judge of his work.
-- John Ruskin
Larry Jaques <[email protected]> wrote:
> Crikey, $1,500 for almost-a-HEPA?
For the same price, one can get a real HEPs, from a more proven
manufacturer.
I guess a Penz endorsement trumps quality.
-- Andy Barss
JayPique <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm thinking about dust collection and wondering if people see any
> value to having a bag room or chamber where the filter media is housed
> that has the ability to be opened to the outside. In the winter you
> would close it up tight and expel the heated air back into the shop
> (or maybe a heat capture unit of some sort) and then in the warmer
> months you could just open it to the outdoors so as to avoid
> recirculating any very fine dust.
I think if you go for a good duct collection system (proper ducting,
good HEPA filter, and such) you'll be doing well. I wouldn't be concerned
about the DC itself recirculating dust -- the dust it
takes in will remain withing the DC.
I can see a few advantages to an external system:
a) it saves space within your shop (I'm considering moving mine for this
reason).
b) when it comes time to empty the canister, and more importantly empty
and clean the filter, the dust that escapes during those operations will
be
in outside air, not inside your shop.
c) noise.
-- Andy Barss
"Dr. Deb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> JayPique wrote:
>
> > I'm thinking about dust collection and wondering if people see any
> > value to having a bag room or chamber where the filter media is housed
> > that has the ability to be opened to the outside. In the winter you
> > would close it up tight and expel the heated air back into the shop
> > (or maybe a heat capture unit of some sort) and then in the warmer
> > months you could just open it to the outdoors so as to avoid
> > recirculating any very fine dust. Or should I be shooting for
> > efficiencies that would make it unnecessary? The shop I work now is
> > simply awful and surely unhealthy. For my own, I want it clean.
> > JP
>
>
> Or, you could despense with the filter bag all together and duct the
output
> of your impeller into a small structure (mine looks like an outhouse)
> outside the shop.
>
> This setup has two advantage
>
> !) It gets the dust outside the shop.
>
> 2) It drastically increases the CFM of your system.
>
> My system uses a cyclone (with a collection can) between the ports and a
HF
> impeller (cheap and it was actually taken off their largest DC) which then
> ducts the fine dust outside the building.
>
> Deb
Good Idea, Deb. I have a friend who vents his to the outside atmosphere
through a wall and the noise level is much less, as most of the sound is
through the exhaust. He has an Oneida similar to mine and both machines
pick up most of the dust into the barrel anyway. I want to put my machine
or at least the exhaust outside, as I live in the country.
What I really want a setup, which would be beyond the requirements of most
in this group, that would pump dust from the cyclone into an enclosed
trailer, for reasons of convenience. I have dust going into a 55 gallon
drum, and it seems like I spend a lot of time emptying it.and carting it to
the dumpster. My profits haven't been high in recent years, so I have put
this on the back burner, like a lot of other things.
"tiredofspam" <nospam.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Get multiple 55 gallon cans... then you can swap them out and in one
> operation empty multiple units out.
>
> If you live in the country it can be mixed in with mulch, if there is no
> walnut.
>
Your idea is good, but I have a small shop (1400 sq. ft) with the DC near
the corner and there is not much room to move around a barrel. What I do
now is to shovel the dust into another can with a contractor trash bag in it
and roll it out to the front door and put it into a wagon and go to the
dumpster. I think that I should just put up a lean-to shed on the side of
the building later. The duct work is really expensive for me right now, so
that all may just have to wait. Thanks for the input :-)
"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 22:12:28 -0600, "woodstuff"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >"tiredofspam" <nospam.nospam.com> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >> Get multiple 55 gallon cans... then you can swap them out and in one
> >> operation empty multiple units out.
> >>
> >> If you live in the country it can be mixed in with mulch, if there is
no
> >> walnut.
> >>
> >Your idea is good, but I have a small shop (1400 sq. ft) with the DC near
> >the corner and there is not much room to move around a barrel. What I do
> >now is to shovel the dust into another can with a contractor trash bag in
it
> >and roll it out to the front door and put it into a wagon and go to the
> >dumpster. I think that I should just put up a lean-to shed on the side
of
> >the building later. The duct work is really expensive for me right now,
so
> >that all may just have to wait. Thanks for the input :-)
>
> I ordered a 50' length of flexible hose. It flops around when you
> start the DC, but it works just fine. $60 at Amazon. ($40 when I got
> it.) The vinyl was offgassing horribly when new, so I left it outside
> for a couple weeks. It didn't stink after that.
>
> --
> ...in order that a man may be happy, it is
> necessary that he should not only be capable
> of his work, but a good judge of his work.
> -- John Ruskin
The Oneida DC has a 7-inch exhaust and I have to buy some fittings and
spiral pipe, as well as some type of cover where it goes outside. For the
shop, I have to put up some unistrut to hold the electrical conduit, air
lines, and DC Pipe. Then there are the fittings to drop down to the
machines, etc. It will cost me alot of time and money. Currently, I have
my single phase and three phase stuff on the floor in large cords and my
dust collection running in pvc under the outfeed table and assembly table
with the rest running in 4-inch on the floor. Not really a good situation,
I know.
After Feb, 2010, I had no calls, bids, or drop-ins for months and made no
money. I was forced to go to work for a countertop company out of state and
do some remodeling in Memphis just to stay alive. During that same period,
some of my friends with big shops were calling me asking for any jobs I
might have. Thanks be to God almighty 2011 and so far this year, I have had
good jobs and some degree of prosperity. Still, I don't want to spend very
much on the shop that I just don't have to.
On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 09:25:59 -0800 (PST), JayPique
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Feb 26, 9:31 am, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>> On Sat, 25 Feb 2012 22:58:27 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
>>
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >Puckdropper wrote:
>>
>> >> As a bonus, you can get charcoal filters that
>> >> absorb some finishing odors.
>>
>> >On that one statement, please allow me to chime in. Forget about the notion
>> >of odors. Today's materials can present hazzards that you cannot detect
>> >with your olfactory sense. Robert has cautioned about this stuff enough
>> >that it's almost foolish to see a post about charcoal filters and absorbing
>> >odors. Not to be the voice of doom and gloom, but the stuff we deal with
>> >today is far more of a concern than finishing odors. Better living through
>> >chemestry and all that crap...
>>
>> Yes, be sure to RTF label.
>>
>
>Yebbut those labels are just legaleze, right? That stuff can't
>acually hurt you. I hope.
Oh, of course not.
P.S: Enjoy your trip through the medical system...if you get that far.
P.P.S: I love the new product manuals for woodworking tools. There are
at least ten pages of warnings, cautions, and tips prior to the one or
two pages of instructions. Then come the exploded diagrams of parts
you can't order until they have at least 1,000 orders in for that
specific part.
--
Courage and perseverance have a magical talisman, before
which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish into air.
-- John Quincy Adams
JayPique wrote:
> I'm thinking about dust collection and wondering if people see any
> value to having a bag room or chamber where the filter media is housed
> that has the ability to be opened to the outside. In the winter you
> would close it up tight and expel the heated air back into the shop
> (or maybe a heat capture unit of some sort) and then in the warmer
> months you could just open it to the outdoors so as to avoid
> recirculating any very fine dust. Or should I be shooting for
> efficiencies that would make it unnecessary? The shop I work now is
> simply awful and surely unhealthy. For my own, I want it clean.
> JP
Depends on where you live. In south GA I am more concerned about the
noise. My dust collector is behind the shop under a shed. That way I
get much less noise and the fine dust that goes through the bag is
outside the shop.
If saving heat is very important, a separate small room would be
ideal, but I would put a really good filter between the room and the
shop. Emptying bags can let loose dust, which you would not want
wafting back into the shop.
A home made separator is worth it's weight in gold. I used a 20 or 30
gal fiber drum with a metal lid. Two elbows are under the lid and
through the lid for the hoses to clamp to, with the elbows pointing in
opposite directions does the job. I just cut the holes and secured
the elbows with hot melt glue or epoxy.
--
Gerald Ross
If an experiment works, you must be
using the wrong equipment.