When You Start Out As A Carpenter...

On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 00:10:46 GMT, "Jim" <[email protected]> wrote:

>You didn't have a brad nailer so you could use brads to hold boards together
>while the glue dries?
>Jim
>

We didn't even know what a "brad" was.


Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)

On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 00:15:37 GMT, "ben" <[email protected]> wrote:


>
>Erm! havn't you forgotten summat?
>


I reckon I have, but I don't know what a "summat" is.

I'm hoping that it's a nailset, which I left out, and shouldn't have.

I also left out the catspaw, but that came later, when you were
carrying a proper tote.

Which was a partner to the Wonderbar.

Which went along with the Framing Square.

Which went into the chisels - and we were talking about what could be
carried in a cloth nail apron - Oh Lordy - It has been too long ago...



Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)

On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 00:29:22 GMT, "ben" <[email protected]> wrote:


>
>You forgot the marking gauge, thats one o the items every carpenter got.
>:-)
>
>summat : something.
>

What is a "Marking Gauge", in the regard of Carpentry?

I have a marking gauge that I use for mortise and tenon joinery, but
it is part of a joiner's or cabinetmaker's kit.


Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)

On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 00:37:59 GMT, "ben" <[email protected]> wrote:


>
>Same thing, you draw it up or push it down the lenght of the wood and
>scribe a line in the wood.
>
>
>


That ain't no carpenter's tool.


If I'd of had one of them in my pouch, I'd have been let go.

(got a nice ulmia now, wouldn't let go of it - but I ain't no
carpenter, now.)


Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)

On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 19:40:19 -0700, jo4hn <[email protected]>
wrote:


>>
>I think that was called a 16 penny smooth box scribe.
> j4


Ka Papa Kuhikuhi.

Now, cut that out!



Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)

Tom Watson wrote:
> In response to a previous question.
>
> When I started out I was expected to have a nail apron that included
> these items:

I think we're a generation apart, but not that much had changed...



>
> A Tape Measure - A Stanley 16' Tape Measure.

check



>
> A Carpenter's Pencil - This should have come from a lumber yard or
> some such, and all I had t do was learn how to sharpen it. *

check



>
> A Keel - A keel is a piece of yellow wax crayon. Our's were Dixons.

check



>
> A Scriber - A scriber is a schoolboy's compass, usually brass looking,
> with a golf course sized piece of pencil in one end.

check



>
> A Chalk Line - Also usually from Stanley, although as I got smarter, I
> bought the ones from Strait-Line.

check, and check.



>
> A Utility Knife - Once again, a Stanley, one of the ones that
> retracted.

I had a run of hydes, then switched to a brand I can't remember right
now...



>
> A Piece Of Blue Chalk - It came in the shape of a half of a sphere,
> and it was blue.

by the time I started wearing nailbags it was all bottles of powdered
chalk.



>
> A Combo Square - My first one was a cheap ass Stanley, my current one
> is from Athol.

my first one was a stanley. now I have about a dozen, including at
least one from athol. I still have the stanley, but it 'aint true no
more...




>
> I also had a hammer holster with a Plumb 16 oz curved claw hammer, on
> a fiberglass stick.

my first one.... hmm... not sure. the first one I seriously used for
carpentering was a 20oz vaughan on hickory....




>
>
>
> That was it for Carpentry 101. When I was there for a bit, I got the
> Sears Leather Toolbelt - changed to a 20 oz Plumb - got a truck - and
> made money.
>
>
> Hope this answers your questions.
>
>
>
>
> Tom Watson - WoodDorker
> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)

Juergen Hannappel wrote:
> Tom Watson <[email protected]> writes:
>
> [...]
>
> > What is a "Marking Gauge", in the regard of Carpentry?
> >
> > I have a marking gauge that I use for mortise and tenon joinery, but
> > it is part of a joiner's or cabinetmaker's kit.
>
> So how does/did a carpenter lay out M&T joinery?

Oh. Well, in a house that's under about 175 years old in the U.S., if
it ain't butt joints it ain't joined. Toe nailing 2x4s took the place
of M&T joints along about 1835 or so, though I have seen some barns
built around 1839 with M&T joints.

Tom Watson wrote:

>>He called us carpenters but we were at best, carpenter's helpers;
trying to make the transition from laborers.

Within a month or so I'd cobbled up a set of sawhorses and a tote,
spent about a whole paycheck on a Rockwell 315 "Circle Saw" (sic)<<

Well.... I was reading along enjoying this until the mention of the
315. That struck a nerve.

I remember 30 years ago when I started full time carpentry, my
aspiration was to buy a 315. Wow... the pinnacle of the all around
saws with its all metal polished case... roller bearings... metal
carrying box and heavy duty rip guide. Using one was real pleasure.
When I finally bought my own, it was part of a govt. auction and I paid
$125 for it then.... 30 years ago. I used it so much that it was
rebult about 4 times (remember the grease cup?) before it was finally
dead.

One thing I have noticed here is that an essential tool that I was
assigned by the carpenters on the job was the broom. Any time I messed
something up, "go get your damn broom and do something useful" was what
I heard. If I didn't understand something, and they felt like it was
over my head.... broom. Ran my "expert" helper's mouth too much with a
brilliant suggestion... broom.

End of day cleanup... guess who... guess what...

Am I the only one that went through that for a few months?

Robert

Tom Watson wrote:
> On 2 Sep 2005 22:40:08 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>
>
>
> >> A Piece Of Blue Chalk - It came in the shape of a half of a sphere,
> >> and it was blue.
> >
> >by the time I started wearing nailbags it was all bottles of powdered
> >chalk.
>
>
> This wasn't used for a chalk line. It was used to make marks on items
> that were going to be cut out.
>
> Let's say that you are fitting a solid backed vanity to a wall. The
> chalk would be rubbed onto the pipe that stuck out the most and then
> the cabinet would be set against the pipe. The chalk left on the back
> of the vanity would mark the outline of the pipe, or close enough to
> cut it within the limits of the escutcheon.
>
> Then you worked your way back.
>
> It was also used to rub on the edge of a scribed line to see how the
> fit needed to be adjusted.





interesting. I wonder when that fell by the wayside. I guess I have
seen that chalk for sale, once or twice, but rarely, for sure. I
learned fitting with transfer color as a carver, usually using china
white or prussian blue. the few times I've been called to fit with
transfer color as a carpenter I've improvised with whatever is at hand-
often keel, but I have used stick chalk and even sharpie. I've even
used carbon paper. heh, that'll date me...

Tom Watson wrote:

<<The happiest day of my life was when I had become too valuable to be
sent for coffee. That was before Self Esteem was even invented.<<

Sombitch... I just about fell off my chair when I read that. No
kiddin'...

I remember going to the convenience store to get coffee, cigarettes,
and ALWAYS winding up short. I was so intimidated by the guys I worked
with I made it up out of my own pocket on laborer's wages.

I think of the guys that would break the bands on a lift of 2X4s and
have me carry 140 out of 144 to where they were working across the site
while the forklift sat in the shade. I remember being told every day
with complete conviction on the part of the tellers that I was so damn
stupid that I should consider myself lucky, no... privileged that they
would explain ANYTHING to me.

I remember when they started to let me eat lunch with them. The first
times I got to drive the crew truck; the first time I was left "in
charge" for an hour or two. And then finally after about 9 to 10
months I was invited to go for a beer after work. I wasn't invited to
stay, but I had a couple and then was chased off.

Damn that was all a long time ago. It almost seems like another person
as I sit here in front of the computer on Sunday night, instead of
being outside on the patio with a beer sharpening my steel blades
(wellllll before carbide) getting ready for the week.

But now things have changed. My guys all cost too much for me to have
any goofing around "dogging" the new guys. And now I have learned the
hard way, that the old ways that we were brought up into on the job
site are offenses for which you can be fined or sued. I have been
before the Texas Workforce Commission enough times to learn the ropes.
So none of that hazing exists on my jobs anymore for a lot of reasons.
Besides, all the folks that come out to work today simply won't
tolerate any "injustices" from their employers.

Thanks for the memories Tom... now knock it off. I can feel a funk
coming on. I really miss some of the old guys I worked with after I
finally became an accepted member of their community. Some were really
good guys, and it meant a lot to me to gain some respect from them.

Robert

Andy Dingley wrote:
<snip>
> Using valid joinery techniques in conditions that don't allow them
> (unprepared stock) is a common sign of the bad and ignorant carpenter.
>
Oh yeah, we probably all have one of those stories from our initial
botched experiments. Mine was building a gate frame to the backyard
fence at my very first house. I'd just purchased my first router, so
for the joinery on the frame I tried 1/2" dovetail joints on the
pressure treated 2x4s. Two dovetails per joint, if I remember. Man,
that thing twisted all to hell and back, even with the faceboards
nailed on. I eventually had so much iron bracketing holding it together
that it sagged into the ground from the weight of the brackets, screws
and nails.

It would be embarrassing, but it's just too funny now.

H

Norman D. Crow wrote:
> Do you use wood pins to hold the M & T's together?

"Treenails", as they're called - all the time.

Making them (by hand, with a drawknife) is one of those tasks you do
when you've stopped for a fag break and you just sit down at the shave
horse for a few minutes, as a break from carrying huge great timbers
around the yard. They're very slightly tapered and sometimes square or
octagonal at the butt end. Leaving this "hand worked" look is an
important part of the look of the finished job.

jo4hn wrote:
> ben wrote:
>
>> Tom Watson wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 00:29:22 GMT, "ben" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> You forgot the marking gauge, thats one o the items every carpenter
>>>> got. :-)
>>>>
>>>> summat : something.
>>>>
>>>
>>> What is a "Marking Gauge", in the regard of Carpentry?
>>>
>>> I have a marking gauge that I use for mortise and tenon joinery, but
>>> it is part of a joiner's or cabinetmaker's kit.
>>>
>>>
>>> Tom Watson - WoodDorker
>>> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
>>> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)
>>
>>
>> Same thing, you draw it up or push it down the lenght of the wood and
>> scribe a line in the wood.
>>
> I think that was called a 16 penny smooth box scribe.
> j4

http://www.machinemart.co.uk/product.asp?p=040216490&r=2185&g=116

On 4 Sep 2005 13:25:18 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

>Well.... I was reading along enjoying this until the mention of the
>315. That struck a nerve.
>
>I remember 30 years ago when I started full time carpentry, my
>aspiration was to buy a 315. Wow... the pinnacle of the all around
>saws with its all metal polished case... roller bearings... metal
>carrying box and heavy duty rip guide. Using one was real pleasure.
>When I finally bought my own, it was part of a govt. auction and I paid
>$125 for it then.... 30 years ago. I used it so much that it was
>rebult about 4 times (remember the grease cup?) before it was finally
>dead.

I didn't go for the case but that is still the best 7-1/4 that I ever
owned. Some idiot helper used it to cut flashing channels into
masonry, all day - because, "It was an old saw".

I didn't fire him, but that was about the time that I decided to go
back to working by myself.

The 315 was Fubarred.
>
>One thing I have noticed here is that an essential tool that I was
>assigned by the carpenters on the job was the broom. Any time I messed
>something up, "go get your damn broom and do something useful" was what
>I heard. If I didn't understand something, and they felt like it was
>over my head.... broom. Ran my "expert" helper's mouth too much with a
>brilliant suggestion... broom.
>
>End of day cleanup... guess who... guess what...
>
>Am I the only one that went through that for a few months?
>
>Robert

I didn't even get inside where I could use a broom for about two
months. All I did was dig and backfill and carry block and mix and
carry mortar. I was actually happy when I got to go inside and run a
broom.

I used to fall asleep to the Mantra, "21 shovels of Sand, 7 shovels of
Portland, 1 shovel of Lime - Pull the box 3 times - be careful with
the water".

The happiest day of my life was when I had become too valuable to be
sent for coffee. That was before Self Esteem was even invented.


watson - who still winces when he sees 12" solids.



Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)

On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 00:37:59 GMT, "ben" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Tom Watson wrote:
>> On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 00:29:22 GMT, "ben" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> You forgot the marking gauge, thats one o the items every carpenter
>>> got. :-)
>>>
>>> summat : something.
>>>
>>
>> What is a "Marking Gauge", in the regard of Carpentry?
>>
>> I have a marking gauge that I use for mortise and tenon joinery, but
>> it is part of a joiner's or cabinetmaker's kit.
>>
>>
>> Tom Watson - WoodDorker
>> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
>> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)
>
>Same thing, you draw it up or push it down the lenght of the wood and
>scribe a line in the wood.

I've gotta agree with Tom- that's not a jobsite carpentry tool. If
you want to do that, that's what the combination square and the pencil
are for.

On 2 Sep 2005 22:40:08 -0700, [email protected] wrote:



>> A Piece Of Blue Chalk - It came in the shape of a half of a sphere,
>> and it was blue.
>
>by the time I started wearing nailbags it was all bottles of powdered
>chalk.


This wasn't used for a chalk line. It was used to make marks on items
that were going to be cut out.

Let's say that you are fitting a solid backed vanity to a wall. The
chalk would be rubbed onto the pipe that stuck out the most and then
the cabinet would be set against the pipe. The chalk left on the back
of the vanity would mark the outline of the pipe, or close enough to
cut it within the limits of the escutcheon.

Then you worked your way back.

It was also used to rub on the edge of a scribed line to see how the
fit needed to be adjusted.


Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)

Tom Watson wrote:
> On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 00:15:37 GMT, "ben" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Erm! havn't you forgotten summat?
>>
>
>
> I reckon I have, but I don't know what a "summat" is.
>
> I'm hoping that it's a nailset, which I left out, and shouldn't have.
>
> I also left out the catspaw, but that came later, when you were
> carrying a proper tote.
>
> Which was a partner to the Wonderbar.
>
> Which went along with the Framing Square.
>
> Which went into the chisels - and we were talking about what could be
> carried in a cloth nail apron - Oh Lordy - It has been too long ago...
>
>
>
> Tom Watson - WoodDorker
> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)

You forgot the marking gauge, thats one o the items every carpenter got.
:-)

summat : something.

Tom Watson wrote:
> On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 00:29:22 GMT, "ben" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> You forgot the marking gauge, thats one o the items every carpenter
>> got. :-)
>>
>> summat : something.
>>
>
> What is a "Marking Gauge", in the regard of Carpentry?
>
> I have a marking gauge that I use for mortise and tenon joinery, but
> it is part of a joiner's or cabinetmaker's kit.
>
>
> Tom Watson - WoodDorker
> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)

Same thing, you draw it up or push it down the lenght of the wood and
scribe a line in the wood.

Tom Watson wrote:
> In response to a previous question.
>
> When I started out I was expected to have a nail apron that included
> these items:
>
> A Tape Measure - A Stanley 16' Tape Measure.
>
> A Carpenter's Pencil - This should have come from a lumber yard or
> some such, and all I had t do was learn how to sharpen it. *
>
> A Keel - A keel is a piece of yellow wax crayon. Our's were Dixons.
>
> A Scriber - A scriber is a schoolboy's compass, usually brass looking,
> with a golf course sized piece of pencil in one end.
>
> A Chalk Line - Also usually from Stanley, although as I got smarter, I
> bought the ones from Strait-Line.
>
> A Utility Knife - Once again, a Stanley, one of the ones that
> retracted.
>
> A Piece Of Blue Chalk - It came in the shape of a half of a sphere,
> and it was blue.
>
> A Combo Square - My first one was a cheap ass Stanley, my current one
> is from Athol.
>
> I also had a hammer holster with a Plumb 16 oz curved claw hammer, on
> a fiberglass stick.
>
>
>
> That was it for Carpentry 101. When I was there for a bit, I got the
> Sears Leather Toolbelt - changed to a 20 oz Plumb - got a truck - and
> made money.
>
>
> Hope this answers your questions.
>
>
>
>
> Tom Watson - WoodDorker
> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)

Erm! havn't you forgotten summat?

"Tom Watson" wrote in message

> I know it's hard but remember the good counsel of generations of
> master builders who have gone before, "We ain't building a Church
> today - let's move it along."

yep... hear that? That's the sound of a nail, hit dead center. lol

> watson - who still suffers from intermittent bouts of Babbage's
> Disease but finds that a decent glass at the end of the day moderates
> the post partum depression that inevitably accompanies a project that
> ain't exactly butched - but ain't no hall of famer, neither.

Now that you mention it, the sun's over the yardarm here, I'm headed for the
showers ...

... you definitely have a way with words and wood, brother.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 02:22:28 -0500, Prometheus
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 00:10:46 GMT, "Jim" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:1125703240.803325509a0c77905b6c43f4afb9b275@teranews...
>>>> In response to a previous question.
>>>>
>>>> When I started out I was expected to have a nail apron that included
>>>> these items:
>>
>>Man, we should all be so lucky. I take about $500 worth of assorted
>>odds and ends with me daily.
>>
>>Shouldn't there at least be a couple more things in that apron? To
>>wit:
>>
>>1.5" framing chisel
>>Handsaw (I like pull saws, myself)
>>Cold Chisel
>>Coping Saw
>>Four-in-hand rasp
>>Rat-tail bastard file
>>Nail punch
>>Flat bar
>>Crow bar
>>T-bevel
>>Framing Square
>>Plumb bob
>>String line
>>Cresent wrench
>>Channel locks
>>Screwdriver (or cordless drill)
>>
>>Depends on what you're doing, I suppose. I've got several stables of
>>tools for different jobs. The above is just the stuff that crosses
>>over several disciplines.
>>
>
>
> that is your kit today. how much of it did you have the first day you
> walked on to a carpentry job? how about the 30th day?


The first day,
A shiny new nail apron, a shiny new hammer, a shiny new . . .

The second day, a shiny new smashed thumb... :-)

Maybe a Craftsman saw , probably all the shiny new tools were Craftsman.

"ben" <[email protected]> wrote in news:Hf6Se.101346$G8.84
@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk:

> Tom Watson wrote:
>> On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 00:29:22 GMT, "ben" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> You forgot the marking gauge, thats one o the items every carpenter
>>> got. :-)
>>>
>>> summat : something.
>>>
>>
>> What is a "Marking Gauge", in the regard of Carpentry?
>>
>> I have a marking gauge that I use for mortise and tenon joinery, but
>> it is part of a joiner's or cabinetmaker's kit.
>>
>>
>> Tom Watson - WoodDorker
>> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
>> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)
>
> Same thing, you draw it up or push it down the lenght of the wood and
> scribe a line in the wood.
>

My carpenter uncle would have used the compass, but then he was a finish
carpenter.

Patriarch,
who was fascinated by those tools as a kid...

"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1125703240.803325509a0c77905b6c43f4afb9b275@teranews...
> In response to a previous question.
>
> When I started out I was expected to have a nail apron that included
> these items:
>
> A Tape Measure - A Stanley 16' Tape Measure.
>
> A Carpenter's Pencil - This should have come from a lumber yard or
> some such, and all I had t do was learn how to sharpen it. *
>
> A Keel - A keel is a piece of yellow wax crayon. Our's were Dixons.
>
> A Scriber - A scriber is a schoolboy's compass, usually brass looking,
> with a golf course sized piece of pencil in one end.
>
> A Chalk Line - Also usually from Stanley, although as I got smarter, I
> bought the ones from Strait-Line.
>
> A Utility Knife - Once again, a Stanley, one of the ones that
> retracted.
>
> A Piece Of Blue Chalk - It came in the shape of a half of a sphere,
> and it was blue.
>
> A Combo Square - My first one was a cheap ass Stanley, my current one
> is from Athol.
>
> I also had a hammer holster with a Plumb 16 oz curved claw hammer, on
> a fiberglass stick.
>
>
>
> That was it for Carpentry 101. When I was there for a bit, I got the
> Sears Leather Toolbelt - changed to a 20 oz Plumb - got a truck - and
> made money.
>
>
> Hope this answers your questions.
>
>
>
>
> Tom Watson - WoodDorker
> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)
You didn't have a brad nailer so you could use brads to hold boards together
while the glue dries?
Jim

On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 20:17:01 -0400, Tom Watson <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 00:10:46 GMT, "Jim" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>You didn't have a brad nailer so you could use brads to hold boards together
>>while the glue dries?
>
>We didn't even know what a "brad" was.

"Brad" was that clueless twit who only got hired because he was the
boss' son-in-law...what, you didn't have one?

Lee

In article <[email protected]>,
Luigi Zanasi <[email protected]> wrote:

[snip]
> Luigi


WTF??? Somebody finally post your bail?

"jo4hn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Tom Watson wrote:
> [snip]>
>>
>> That's gotta be the heaviest nail apron going.
>>
>> I was responding to a question about what my first boss expected me to
>> carry in the apron at all times. He called us carpenters but we were at
>> best, carpenter's helpers;
>> trying to make the transition from laborers.
>>
>> Within a month or so I'd cobbled up a set of sawhorses and a tote,
>> spent about a whole paycheck on a Rockwell 315 "Circle Saw" (sic), and
>> never really stopped buying tools until a bit less than two years ago,
>> when I gave it up to be a clip board jockey.
>>
>> Tom Watson - WoodDorker
>> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
>> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)
> So what all do you carry now? And what do you carry it in?
> curioso,

Knowledge and experience, in his "hat rack".

--
Nahmie
The greatest headaches are those we cause ourselves.

Do you use wood pins to hold the M & T's together?

--
Nahmie
The greatest headaches are those we cause ourselves.

"Andy Dingley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 00:37:59 GMT, "ben" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Same thing, you draw it up or push it down the lenght of the wood and
>>scribe a line in the wood.
>
> A marking gauge. That's a joiner's tool, not a carpenter's.
>
> IMHO, joinery takes place in woirkshops, with workbenches and planes.
> Carpentry is the stuff you do on-site, without a bench and without
> truing stock up beforehand.
>
> The carpentry I do is timber framing (big hairy-assed stuff). That
> involves cutting lots of mortices. Now a joiner might well use a marking
> gauge to lay out a mortice, but a timber framer never should (although
> many do). You can't trust that your timber is straight or square, so
> instead you mark a datum line down the centre of the beam with your
> chalk line (or I prefer an ink line) and then you mark off from that
> with a square, rather than a marking gauge from an edge.
>
> Using valid joinery techniques in conditions that don't allow them
> (unprepared stock) is a common sign of the bad and ignorant carpenter.
>
>
> --
> Cats have nine lives, which is why they rarely post to Usenet.

On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 02:22:28 -0500, Prometheus
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 00:10:46 GMT, "Jim" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:1125703240.803325509a0c77905b6c43f4afb9b275@teranews...
>>> In response to a previous question.
>>>
>>> When I started out I was expected to have a nail apron that included
>>> these items:
>
>Man, we should all be so lucky. I take about $500 worth of assorted
>odds and ends with me daily.
>
>Shouldn't there at least be a couple more things in that apron? To
>wit:
>
>1.5" framing chisel
>Handsaw (I like pull saws, myself)
>Cold Chisel
>Coping Saw
>Four-in-hand rasp
>Rat-tail bastard file
>Nail punch
>Flat bar
>Crow bar
>T-bevel
>Framing Square
>Plumb bob
>String line
>Cresent wrench
>Channel locks
>Screwdriver (or cordless drill)
>
>Depends on what you're doing, I suppose. I've got several stables of
>tools for different jobs. The above is just the stuff that crosses
>over several disciplines.
>

That's gotta be the heaviest nail apron going.

I was responding to a question about what my first boss expected me to
carry in the apron at all times.

He called us carpenters but we were at best, carpenter's helpers;
trying to make the transition from laborers.

Within a month or so I'd cobbled up a set of sawhorses and a tote,
spent about a whole paycheck on a Rockwell 315 "Circle Saw" (sic), and
never really stopped buying tools until a bit less than two years ago,
when I gave it up to be a clip board jockey.

Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Luigi Zanasi <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> [snip]
> > Luigi
>
>
> WTF??? Somebody finally post your bail?


Nah ... the ice finally broke up for the Sprin errr Summer.

ben wrote:

> Tom Watson wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 00:29:22 GMT, "ben" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>You forgot the marking gauge, thats one o the items every carpenter
>>>got. :-)
>>>
>>>summat : something.
>>>
>>
>>What is a "Marking Gauge", in the regard of Carpentry?
>>
>>I have a marking gauge that I use for mortise and tenon joinery, but
>>it is part of a joiner's or cabinetmaker's kit.
>>
>>
>>Tom Watson - WoodDorker
>>tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
>>http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)
>
>
> Same thing, you draw it up or push it down the lenght of the wood and
> scribe a line in the wood.
>
I think that was called a 16 penny smooth box scribe.
j4

On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 02:22:28 -0500, Prometheus
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 00:10:46 GMT, "Jim" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:1125703240.803325509a0c77905b6c43f4afb9b275@teranews...
>>> In response to a previous question.
>>>
>>> When I started out I was expected to have a nail apron that included
>>> these items:
>
>Man, we should all be so lucky. I take about $500 worth of assorted
>odds and ends with me daily.
>
>Shouldn't there at least be a couple more things in that apron? To
>wit:
>
>1.5" framing chisel
>Handsaw (I like pull saws, myself)
>Cold Chisel
>Coping Saw
>Four-in-hand rasp
>Rat-tail bastard file
>Nail punch
>Flat bar
>Crow bar
>T-bevel
>Framing Square
>Plumb bob
>String line
>Cresent wrench
>Channel locks
>Screwdriver (or cordless drill)
>
>Depends on what you're doing, I suppose. I've got several stables of
>tools for different jobs. The above is just the stuff that crosses
>over several disciplines.
>


that is your kit today. how much of it did you have the first day you
walked on to a carpentry job? how about the 30th day?

On Sun, 4 Sep 2005 08:44:24 -0500, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:

<snipperooo>
>
>Although much of the saving in labor costs will go in my pocket, I will once
>again Endeavour to keep in mind that I need to stick to cabinets and
>furniture. Either that, or learn to go into the rapid-fire-nailgun, slap-it
>up-quickly-then-head-to-the-cantina mode that suffices for "carpentry"
>around these parts.
>
>Not to mention the tendency toward "Babbage's Disease", that inflicts a
>furniture/cabinet maker who attempts "carpentry".


The "Difference" is in the "Engine" that appears to drive the project.

Neither enjoys "The Luxury Of Perfection" if time is an issue - and
when is it ever not?

I started as a carpenter and went towards cabinetmaking from there.
The "Difference" is a matter of degree, or tolerances - but the
"Engine" is the same, so long as it is described within the approriate
tolerances.

Like me, you are an OTD (Older Than Dirt) to the current crop, and our
standards are informed by both history and practicality. These
Standards, the "Engine" that drives the project to its final result,
must be adjusted to the tolerances needed for the task at hand.

You've been building stuff long enough to know what a set of shelves
for a garage should look like - you just gotta let yourself relax and
not try to gild that lily too much.

I know it's hard but remember the good counsel of generations of
master builders who have gone before, "We ain't building a Church
today - let's move it along."


watson - who still suffers from intermittent bouts of Babbage's
Disease but finds that a decent glass at the end of the day moderates
the post partum depression that inevitably accompanies a project that
ain't exactly butched - but ain't no hall of famer, neither.


Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)

On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 21:02:22 -0400, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> Luigi Zanasi <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>[snip]
>> Luigi
>
>
>WTF??? Somebody finally post your bail?

Nah, summer finally made it to the Northern Tundra and he is just getting
defrosted. Unfortunately, the week of summer is almost over and he's
headed back to the icebox soon. ;-)




+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 02:24:48 -0500, Prometheus
<[email protected]> scribbled:

>On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 00:37:59 GMT, "ben" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Tom Watson wrote:

>>> What is a "Marking Gauge", in the regard of Carpentry?
>>>
>>> I have a marking gauge that I use for mortise and tenon joinery, but
>>> it is part of a joiner's or cabinetmaker's kit.
>>
>>Same thing, you draw it up or push it down the lenght of the wood and
>>scribe a line in the wood.
>
>I've gotta agree with Tom- that's not a jobsite carpentry tool. If
>you want to do that, that's what the combination square and the pencil
>are for.

Whaddayaneed the square for? Just lay your pencil at an angle at the
right spot, with your middle finger on the edge of the board, and
slide it along. :-)

Luigi
Replace "nonet" with "yukonomics" for real email address
www.yukonomics.ca/wooddorking/humour.html
www.yukonomics.ca/wooddorking/antifaq.html

On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 00:10:46 GMT, "Jim" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:1125703240.803325509a0c77905b6c43f4afb9b275@teranews...
>> In response to a previous question.
>>
>> When I started out I was expected to have a nail apron that included
>> these items:

Man, we should all be so lucky. I take about $500 worth of assorted
odds and ends with me daily.

Shouldn't there at least be a couple more things in that apron? To
wit:

1.5" framing chisel
Handsaw (I like pull saws, myself)
Cold Chisel
Coping Saw
Four-in-hand rasp
Rat-tail bastard file
Nail punch
Flat bar
Crow bar
T-bevel
Framing Square
Plumb bob
String line
Cresent wrench
Channel locks
Screwdriver (or cordless drill)

Depends on what you're doing, I suppose. I've got several stables of
tools for different jobs. The above is just the stuff that crosses
over several disciplines.

Tom Watson wrote:
[snip]>
>
> That's gotta be the heaviest nail apron going.
>
> I was responding to a question about what my first boss expected me to
> carry in the apron at all times.
>
> He called us carpenters but we were at best, carpenter's helpers;
> trying to make the transition from laborers.
>
> Within a month or so I'd cobbled up a set of sawhorses and a tote,
> spent about a whole paycheck on a Rockwell 315 "Circle Saw" (sic), and
> never really stopped buying tools until a bit less than two years ago,
> when I gave it up to be a clip board jockey.
>
> Tom Watson - WoodDorker
> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)
So what all do you carry now? And what do you carry it in?
curioso,
ju4an

They always did. Difference is, now you are paying for it.

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> But now things have changed. My guys all cost too much for me to have
> any goofing around "dogging" the new guys.

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message

>Carpentry is the stuff you do on-site, without a bench and without
>truing stock up beforehand.

<snip>

> Using valid joinery techniques in conditions that don't allow them
> (unprepared stock) is a common sign of the bad and ignorant carpenter.

A well put mouthfull ... amply illustrated by my efforts in the past, and
once again yesterday, to do what I consider "carpentry", the results of
which somehow always falls way below my original expectations.

The prospective purchaser with a contract on a new home I just finished
wanted some shelves in the garage as part of the contract. Since there was
some leftover pine shelving material still on site, since I would rather be
busy with something than not, holiday weekend or no, and since it needed to
be done ASAP, I thought I'd get a jump on the situation and built the
shelving myself yesterday morning.

Although much of the saving in labor costs will go in my pocket, I will once
again Endeavour to keep in mind that I need to stick to cabinets and
furniture. Either that, or learn to go into the rapid-fire-nailgun, slap-it
up-quickly-then-head-to-the-cantina mode that suffices for "carpentry"
around these parts.

Not to mention the tendency toward "Babbage's Disease", that inflicts a
furniture/cabinet maker who attempts "carpentry".

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/05

On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 00:37:59 GMT, "ben" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Same thing, you draw it up or push it down the lenght of the wood and
>scribe a line in the wood.

A marking gauge. That's a joiner's tool, not a carpenter's.

IMHO, joinery takes place in woirkshops, with workbenches and planes.
Carpentry is the stuff you do on-site, without a bench and without
truing stock up beforehand.

The carpentry I do is timber framing (big hairy-assed stuff). That
involves cutting lots of mortices. Now a joiner might well use a marking
gauge to lay out a mortice, but a timber framer never should (although
many do). You can't trust that your timber is straight or square, so
instead you mark a datum line down the centre of the beam with your
chalk line (or I prefer an ink line) and then you mark off from that
with a square, rather than a marking gauge from an edge.

Using valid joinery techniques in conditions that don't allow them
(unprepared stock) is a common sign of the bad and ignorant carpenter.


--
Cats have nine lives, which is why they rarely post to Usenet.

On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 09:10:23 +0200, Juergen Hannappel
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Tom Watson <[email protected]> writes:
>
>[...]
>
>> What is a "Marking Gauge", in the regard of Carpentry?
>>
>> I have a marking gauge that I use for mortise and tenon joinery, but
>> it is part of a joiner's or cabinetmaker's kit.
>
>So how does/did a carpenter lay out M&T joinery?


on this continent he doesn't, unless he's a timber framer. we won't go
there.

thems that do M&T are furniture makers.

Tom Watson <[email protected]> writes:

[...]

> What is a "Marking Gauge", in the regard of Carpentry?
>
> I have a marking gauge that I use for mortise and tenon joinery, but
> it is part of a joiner's or cabinetmaker's kit.

So how does/did a carpenter lay out M&T joinery?
--
Dr. Juergen Hannappel http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~hannappe
mailto:[email protected] Phone: +49 228 73 2447 FAX ... 7869
Physikalisches Institut der Uni Bonn Nussallee 12, D-53115 Bonn, Germany
CERN: Phone: +412276 76461 Fax: ..77930 Bat. 892-R-A13 CH-1211 Geneve 23

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Norman D. Crow wrote:
>> Do you use wood pins to hold the M & T's together?
>
> "Treenails", as they're called - all the time.
>
> Making them (by hand, with a drawknife) is one of those tasks you do
> when you've stopped for a fag break and you just sit down at the shave
> horse for a few minutes, as a break from carrying huge great timbers
> around the yard. They're very slightly tapered and sometimes square or
> octagonal at the butt end. Leaving this "hand worked" look is an
> important part of the look of the finished job.
>

Among other choices, a timber framed house is in the running for my next
house...

That said, are you anywhere near SW Tennessee?
Tom