On Sat, 5 Jan 2008 15:35:02 -0800 (PST), "SonomaProducts.com"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Tone can easily be lost in email and chat. Sorry it sounded that way.
>Norm is someone I really look up to. I do make jabs at him about his
>use of the brad nailer. Many times the use of a clamp and a caul and a
>little waiting can keep from having filled holes. Norm is moving fast
>for the cameras so he put nails holes in pieces a classic builder
>would never think of.
Well, I guess I'm not a classic builder, but then, who is? It seems to
me it's just another tool which "classic builders" of yore didn't use
because they didn't have them. Reminds me of an argument used in ham
radio by some people who claim that "Q" signals (three letter
abbreviations for various common phrases) were invented for CW (Morse
code) and shouldn't be used in voice communications. BS! I say. They
were invented when CW was the only mode--phone capabilities woudn't be
developed for another 50 years.
>He also isn't really known for his finishes but
>I really am hoping to learn something from him on the finishing
>techniques because I'm sure he can do an awesome job if he puts some
>thought into it.
Actually, I thought he's really progressed in the last ten years. He
used to do nothing but stain and poly (sending Norm bashers into orbit
faster than the brad nails), but he's used his five (or four or six)
step process a lot in recent years--aniline dye, sealer, glaze,
filler, wipe on (as opposed to brush on), and sometimes a shellac
thrown in there somewhere. No, he's never done a French polish, but
who among us has?
I appreciate your response. I'm sensitive to Norm bashing because I
think the very fact that there are sufficient woodworkers to populate
the wreck and the dozens (well, many) forums is due in large (very
large) part to his presence and inspiration.
--
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
http://www.normstools.com
Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997
email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.
Buddy Matlosz wrote:
> http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080105/ENT/801050403/1031
>
> And to all the Norm-bashers out there:
>
> Up yours, ya jealous bastuhds. Most of you couldn't carry Norms' tool
> belt.
>
> B.
That is certainly a pretty good run. Sad thing is, it doesn't seem that
long ago.
--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough
Buddy Matlosz wrote:
> http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080105/ENT/801050403/1031
>
> And to all the Norm-bashers out there:
>
> Up yours, ya jealous bastuhds. Most of you couldn't carry Norms' tool belt.
>
> B.
>
>
Congratulations to you, Norm. I have lots of good memories of shutting
off the shop on a cool rainy day and settling down with a beer and NYW
and TOH.
mahalo,
jo4hn
"Greg G." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> George said:
>
>>"Greg G." <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>SNIP
>>>
>>> Also, Powermatic/WHM Tools is now sponsoring a new series on PBS
>>> called the Woodsmith Shop. The first episode air in my area was today.
>>>
>>> So to wrap that back around to Norm, they have a winner in him, and
>>> B&D had better watch it lest WMH Tool Group outbids them as a sponsor.
>>> It could prove to be a crippling blow to Delta.
>>>
>>
>>Yeah, FWIW, look what WMH is doing to the Performax brand.
>
> Please enlighten; as only one man I can hardly keep up with so much
> muckraking and corporate plundering without some help. :-\
>
Just for you and the others too lazy, consider the following:
http://www.performaxpowertools.com/
LRod took a can of maroon spray paint on January 6, 2008 09:11 am and wrote
the following:
> I'm sensitive to Norm bashing because I
> think the very fact that there are sufficient woodworkers to populate
> the wreck and the dozens (well, many) forums is due in large (very
> large) part to his presence and inspiration.
>
I agree completely, I don't even consider myself a woodworker, but through
his inspiration I have learned and completed many projects around the
house, that have earned praise from my wife, friends, and family.
--
Lits Slut #9
Life would be so much easier if we could just look at the source code.
Nahm will be doing a 9-episode custom kitchen this season so we should
get all te answers we ever needed on cabinet building. I guess Morash
needed a new kitchen. My only question will be to see how nice all
those cabinets look with millions of brads shot into every conceivable
location. Old Nahm probably shoots about 100 brads per episode.
Old Nahm surely inspired me and I'll always be grateful to him. I am
looking forward to his final episode this season where he will do a 9
step finish process to a pine and maple side table to "make it look
100 years old". He has come a long way from those first few seasons
where everything got a nearly black stain that looked like paint.
On Jan 5, 12:44=A0pm, "Buddy Matlosz" <[email protected]> wrote:
> http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=3D/20080105/ENT/801050403/...=
>
> And to all the Norm-bashers out there:
>
> Up yours, ya jealous bastuhds. Most of you couldn't carry Norms' tool belt=
.
>
> B.
Jim Stuyck took a can of maroon spray paint on January 6, 2008 10:56 am and
wrote the following:
>
> Oh...and I "caved in" maybe 10 years ago and bought a brad
> nailer. Every time I pick it up I regret having waited so long!
> Now, under close supervision, I let my 10-yr-old grandson
> and 8-yr-old granddaughter drive a few brads when they
> "assist" with my projects.
>
Just got my brad nailer and compressor this year, I needed it for a large
job. No kids to let use it, but that compressor sure does scare the cats.
;-)
--
Lits Slut #9
Life would be so much easier if we could just look at the source code.
George said:
>"Puckdropper" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> You'll have to tell us what you're referring to, I cannot read your
>> mind. Do you think Performax tools are going down in quality? Are you
>> saying they're doing better?
>
>You could have read the post. You and Greg could both benefit from spending
>half as much time learning as responding. Performax, as indicated in the
>original post, is a respected brand name purchased by a conglomerate who has
>rebadged its products and taken the good name into the cheap end of the
>pool.
Look, you insolent fart, I ordinarily overlook rude transgressions,
but since you again call me out by name, I have to comment that I
spend 80% of my time "learning". Including 7 programming languages,
several whose OS API's change on a semi-monthly basis, as well as
rebuilding a house, civil tort law, maintaining pets, electronic and
digital design, keeping up with the demise of this country's economy,
and the blow by blows on the idiots elected to office. I also manage
to fit in some woodworking now and then. Not to mention keeping up
with the "public service" clowns who have tried to do me in for the
last 20 years as they try to conceal bribery, subversion of the legal
system, arson, insurance fraud, drug dealers, threats and collusion to
protect one dead, illiterate serial arsonist son of an overpaid
ex-school board attorney, his ex-chief superior court judge law
partner, a couple of bribe taking state judges, a collusive bar
association, a crony senator, an ex-school board superintendent that
has been run out of 3 different school systems around the country for
various improprieties, his child molesting, asshat son, a shifty navy
recruiter, Newt, a crony Florida NeoCon state rep, that crap from
Texas, legions of sycophants, and a drunken, lying, knife wielding
psycho charged with felony assault and her meddling mother - all of
whom cost me many tens of thousands of dollars and decades of life.
All arrogant, redneck SOB's as well. Not being a pantywaist, I won't
put up with it from them, nor from some anonymous clown on Usenet.
Alas, scraping all this shit off my shoes leaves little time to
substantiate your one line assertion of WMH Tools effect on yet
another corporate reputation. No one in this area sells Performax,
I've never been to their web site, and considering the fact that I've
changed technical careers 3 times in the past 20 years, have watched,
up close and personal, at least 6 electronics companies fail and just
about everything else vacate the country in lieu of cheap labor in a
communist slave labor nation, I don't think it is unreasonable to
request a minor definition of exactly what you're complaining about
with this line:
>Yeah, FWIW, look what WMH is doing to the Performax brand.
It is called "conversation." You could have included the statement,
"just look at their web site for details" and all would have been
good. but you resort to repeated personal affronts. Even them learnin
book thangs have references and footnotes to substantiate their vague
assertions for the benefit of those busy academics who must plod
through them. As for me, I've already wasted 10 minutes typing this
pointless screed, and I'm done.
But while we're resorting to ad hominem attacks, you could benefit
from learnin' some ordinary manners, upping your Thorazine script, or
getting laid.
Later, Dude,
Greg G.
I don't recall Norm using any brads in this episode, or at least not that they
showed. The cabinet bottem was held with glue and screws, the face frames were
put together with glue and pocket hole screws and then glued to the cabinets.
Anyone notice that the garage which Norm was in looks like same place that he did
the 2 episode garage make over in.
"SonomaProducts.com" wrote:
> Nahm will be doing a 9-episode custom kitchen this season so we should
> get all te answers we ever needed on cabinet building. I guess Morash
> needed a new kitchen. My only question will be to see how nice all
> those cabinets look with millions of brads shot into every conceivable
> location. Old Nahm probably shoots about 100 brads per episode.
>
> Old Nahm surely inspired me and I'll always be grateful to him. I am
> looking forward to his final episode this season where he will do a 9
> step finish process to a pine and maple side table to "make it look
> 100 years old". He has come a long way from those first few seasons
> where everything got a nearly black stain that looked like paint.
>
> On Jan 5, 12:44 pm, "Buddy Matlosz" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080105/ENT/801050403/...
> >
> > And to all the Norm-bashers out there:
> >
> > Up yours, ya jealous bastuhds. Most of you couldn't carry Norms' tool belt.
> >
> > B.
I noticed that Norm seems to be using a new Dado set this season, anyone have
any idea who makes it and perhaps what model. It comes in what looks to be a
sturdy carrying case with the main blades and shims on one side and the
chippers on the other.
Buddy Matlosz wrote:
> http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080105/ENT/801050403/1031
>
> And to all the Norm-bashers out there:
>
> Up yours, ya jealous bastuhds. Most of you couldn't carry Norms' tool belt.
>
> B.
"FrozenNorth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> LRod took a can of maroon spray paint on January 6, 2008 09:11 am and
> wrote
> the following:
>
>> I'm sensitive to Norm bashing because I
>> think the very fact that there are sufficient woodworkers to populate
>> the wreck and the dozens (well, many) forums is due in large (very
>> large) part to his presence and inspiration.
>>
> I agree completely, I don't even consider myself a woodworker, but through
> his inspiration I have learned and completed many projects around the
> house, that have earned praise from my wife, friends, and family.
>
Add me to the list. I've been known to e-mail Norm with a
critique or two, but I've also purchased around 8 of his
plans (including the Mesquite Bookcase -- made two out of oak;
the Tall Clock -- one of my daughters beams each time she
shows it off to friends). The fellow DID create a much greater
interest in home woodworking than previously existed.
I've been enjoying woodworking for about 50 years, since
way before NYW came on the air, and still learn a thing or
two, or modify a thing or two, with almost every episode.
My TIVO records every episode and there are over a dozen
still on the machine, "just in case" I suddenly get the urge to
make something.
Oh...and I "caved in" maybe 10 years ago and bought a brad
nailer. Every time I pick it up I regret having waited so long!
Now, under close supervision, I let my 10-yr-old grandson
and 8-yr-old granddaughter drive a few brads when they
"assist" with my projects.
Jim Stuyck
"George" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
>>>
>>>Yeah, FWIW, look what WMH is doing to the Performax brand.
>>
>> Please enlighten; as only one man I can hardly keep up with so much
>> muckraking and corporate plundering without some help. :-\
>>
>
> Just for you and the others too lazy, consider the following:
> http://www.performaxpowertools.com/
>
>
Ok, so the website's set up for 600x800, fixed width. There's lots of
"neat web design" junk on it. Other than that, what do you want us to
see?
You'll have to tell us what you're referring to, I cannot read your
mind. Do you think Performax tools are going down in quality? Are you
saying they're doing better?
Puckdropper
--
Marching to the beat of a different drum is great... unless you're in
marching band.
To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm
Puckdropper <[email protected]> wrote in news:4782e814$0$47110
[email protected]:
> "George" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>
>>>>
>>>>Yeah, FWIW, look what WMH is doing to the Performax brand.
>>>
>>> Please enlighten; as only one man I can hardly keep up with so much
>>> muckraking and corporate plundering without some help. :-\
>>>
>>
>> Just for you and the others too lazy, consider the following:
>> http://www.performaxpowertools.com/
>>
>>
>
> Ok, so the website's set up for 600x800, fixed width. There's lots of
> "neat web design" junk on it. Other than that, what do you want us to
> see?
>
> You'll have to tell us what you're referring to, I cannot read your
> mind. Do you think Performax tools are going down in quality? Are you
> saying they're doing better?
>
> Puckdropper
My appologies for the bad trimming. Greg G. and George are involved in
the discussion above.
Puckdropper
I found out which dado set it was...went to the Woodworking show in town this
weekend and there it was, with all the other Delta stuff. Same black case and
chipper design.
Karl wrote:
> I noticed that Norm seems to be using a new Dado set this season, anyone have
> any idea who makes it and perhaps what model. It comes in what looks to be a
> sturdy carrying case with the main blades and shims on one side and the
> chippers on the other.
>
> Buddy Matlosz wrote:
>
> > http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080105/ENT/801050403/1031
> >
> > And to all the Norm-bashers out there:
> >
> > Up yours, ya jealous bastuhds. Most of you couldn't carry Norms' tool belt.
> >
> > B.
Yep, there is always the exception. I am sitting next to a book case
with just that detail and I designed the glass hold strips to be on
the inside of the door so I wouldn't see the nails. But you won't see
any nails in any of the applied molding.
On Jan 6, 12:04=A0pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
> Regarding th brads and a "classic builder" I was really just saying
> Norm is perfectly OK with filled nail holes and this is kind of a
> finish carpenter attitude vs a furniture builder. Seeing a filled nail
> hole, to me, is not something you should find on a piece of furniture.
> Maybe it's OK on a kitchen cabinet but will you see any nail holes on
> a Darrel Peart table or chair?
>
> What about thin strips of wood or moldings that hold glass in place?
On Mon, 07 Jan 2008 04:07:20 -0600, Sean S <seans_efn_dotorg> wrote:
>Karl <[email protected]> laid this on me:
>
>> I don't recall Norm using any brads in this episode, or at least not
>> that they showed. The cabinet bottem was held with glue and screws,
>> the face frames were put together with glue and pocket hole screws and
>> then glued to the cabinets.
>>
>> Anyone notice that the garage which Norm was in looks like same place
>> that he did the 2 episode garage make over in.
>
> A couple weeks ago, I watched the NYW where he builds his mailbox,
>and puts it out in front of his house with 4 or 5 other mailboxes. Great,
>fine, etc.
> Immediately following NYW was Ask This Old House, where they "got a
>letter from a viewer who wanted a better way for the mailman and visitors
>to see his house numbers."
> So they pull up the street to this guy's mailbox - and sure enough,
>right there is the mailbox I had just watched Nahm build, same
>street/numbers/colors and all, just a tad worse for the wear.
Roger Cook even said (something like), "and you know who this is" when
he pointed it out.
--
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
http://www.normstools.com
Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997
email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.
Tone can easily be lost in email and chat. Sorry it sounded that way.
Norm is someone I really look up to. I do make jabs at him about his
use of the brad nailer. Many times the use of a clamp and a caul and a
little waiting can keep from having filled holes. Norm is moving fast
for the cameras so he put nails holes in pieces a classic builder
would never think of. He also isn't really known for his finishes but
I really am hoping to learn something from him on the finishing
techniques because I'm sure he can do an awesome job if he puts some
thought into it.
On Jan 5, 2:02=A0pm, LRod <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sat, 5 Jan 2008 13:37:13 -0800 (PST), "SonomaProducts.com"
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >Nahm will be doing a 9-episode custom kitchen this season so we should
> >get all te answers we ever needed on cabinet building.
>
> >Old Nahm surely inspired me and I'll always be grateful to him. I am
> >looking forward to his final episode this season where he will do a 9
> >step finish process to a pine and maple side table to "make it look
> >100 years old".
>
> Gee, just look how nice your post sounds when you take all the
> derogatory "brad nail" and "stain that looks like paint" comments out.
> Damning with faint praise is what you sounded like. =A0You could even
> have saved some bandwidth, too.
>
> --
> LRod
>
> Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
>
> Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
>
> http://www.woodbutcher.nethttp://www.normstools.com
>
> Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997
>
> email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
> If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
> care to correspond with you anyway.
"B A R R Y" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> It all makes a lot more sense to me than General adding "International"
> to the name plate or Delta adding "Shopmaster" to the decal. More often
> than not people totally missed the added word and considered them the
> real deal, rather than a lower-end alternative to the flagship brand.
I don't see it that way, at least now with General. Most anybody that's
doing research online has some knowledge about what they want and are just
checking out the differences in function, details and price. Considering
what most big iron costs, people are pretty particular about what they buy
and don't usually pull the trigger at the first product they see. It's
pretty obvious when you see the price discrepancy difference between General
and General International that there's a distinct difference between the
two. That's plenty of information for someone to dig deeper for additional
details.
Buddy Matlosz said:
>http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080105/ENT/801050403/1031
>
>And to all the Norm-bashers out there:
>
>Up yours, ya jealous bastuhds. Most of you couldn't carry Norms' tool belt.
At the risk of rising to the (regularly recurring) motions of a
Garcia/Mitchell 500, Norm is the only guy I know who can actually do
something useful with his tools. (Stop with the snickering, you
juvenile wankers...) Although I've never built anything from the
show, I have watched every episode of NYW and most of the TOH series.
I have propped up their sponsors with many purchases, however, so I
suppose he is doing his job. Yet compared to the deluge of utterly
superficial and narcissistic BS on television, Norm and Silvan et al.
are a breath of fresh air. Even though I've already done the kitchen
remodel thing, and was rather disappointed to see than the majority of
this year's episodes are about remodeling Morash's kitchen, I'm still
waiting for 10:30AM Sunday to add the 20th season to my CD collection.
All eminently more pleasant than your average pettifogger or politico.
An unmarked black envelope showed up in my postal box 5 years ago. It
turned out to contain my most prized possession; a signed photo of the
Nahm himself: (Which is WAAAY better than the photos of Newt Gingrich
with which I line the bird cage and wipe up spilled shellac.)
http://webpages.charter.net/videodoctor/images/NORMABRAM1.JPG
I have religiously followed his sage advise for the past 6 years - to
the chagrin of everyone I know. Went to Old Sturbridge Village this
summer despite not being particularly fond of the style of many
antiques.
Maybe someone could convince PBS to buy the rights to broadcast the
older WoodWorks episodes as well. I'll certainly never pay the toll
required to watch the DIY ad network.
Happy 20th Norm - Seriously. Here is hoping for 20 more.
Greg G.
Upscale wrote:
> It's
> pretty obvious when you see the price discrepancy difference between General
> and General International that there's a distinct difference between the
> two. That's plenty of information for someone to dig deeper for additional
> details.
I agree, it should be obvious. My comments were drawn from experience
of many forum messages from people who seemed confused.
"Puckdropper" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>" junk on it. Other than that, what do you want us to
> see?
>
> You'll have to tell us what you're referring to, I cannot read your
> mind. Do you think Performax tools are going down in quality? Are you
> saying they're doing better?
Performax no longer sells what they are best known for, the drum sanders.
They now have some B&D looking stuff with their name on it.
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> On Sat, 5 Jan 2008 15:44:25 -0500, "Buddy Matlosz"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080105/ENT/801050403/1031
> >
> >And to all the Norm-bashers out there:
> >
> >Up yours, ya jealous bastuhds. Most of you couldn't carry Norms' tool belt.
> >
> >B.
> >
>
>
> This day is called the feast of Nahm:
> He that outlives this day, and comes safe home,
> Will stand a tip-toe when the day is named,
> And rouse him at the name of Nahm.
> He that shall live this day, and see old age,
> Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours,
> And say 'To-morrow is Saint Nahm:'
> Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars.
> And say 'These wounds I had on Nahm's day.'
> Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot,
> But he'll remember with advantages
> What feats he did that day: then shall our names.
> Familiar in his mouth as household words
> Morash the king, Silva and Trethewey,
> Cook and Gallant, Dee and Roy,
> Be in their flowing cups freshly remember'd.
> This story shall the good man teach his son;
> And Nahm Nahm shall ne'er go by,
> From this day to the ending of the world,
> But we in it shall be remember'd;
> We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
> For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
> Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
> This day shall gentle his condition:
> And gentlemen in Nahmland now a-bed
> Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,
> And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
> That fought with us upon Saint Nahm's day.
>
>
> (my vaguest apologies)
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Tom Watson
I wonder how many brad nailers he went through in
20 years.
S.
"Buddy Matlosz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080105/ENT/801050403/1031
>
> And to all the Norm-bashers out there:
>
> Up yours, ya jealous bastuhds. Most of you couldn't carry Norms' tool
> belt.
>
> B.
>
>
Well I generally like Norm but this new kitchen episode is kinda shocking.
Looks like a first episode 20 years ago rather than a 20th year one.
I noticed:
1. He used the PC plate joiner to join the face frames to the cabinet
carcass and used no dust collection or dust bag while using the plate
joiner. Saw dust went straight up in the air everywhere. Makes the PC
plate joiner look like a very messy tool.
2. I guess because of poor design of the face frames he had to use veneer
on the front of the bottom shelf of the cabinet because the face frame does
not cover the bottom shelf completely. The completed cabinet shown on the
floor, the bottom face frame rail is about 3/8" lower than the bottom shelf.
Add to that, the shot showing clamp up is not the same cabinet shown
finished. I guess they have a plan that has not been mentioned yet. I
guess they are going to have inset doors and will allow for the bottom shelf
to stop the door. Looks screwed up to me.
> 2. I guess because of poor design of the face frames he had to use veneer
> on the front of the bottom shelf of the cabinet because the face frame
> does not cover the bottom shelf completely. The completed cabinet shown
> on the floor, the bottom face frame rail is about 3/8" lower than the
> bottom shelf. Add to that, the shot showing clamp up is not the same
> cabinet shown finished. I guess they have a plan that has not been
> mentioned yet. I guess they are going to have inset doors and will allow
> for the bottom shelf to stop the door. Looks screwed up to me.
>
I think Nahm said he planned the face fram/shelf bottom to provide the stop
for the inset door.
Jack
"Karl" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>I don't recall Norm using any brads in this episode, or at least not that
>they
> showed. The cabinet bottem was held with glue and screws, the face frames
> were
> put together with glue and pocket hole screws and then glued to the
> cabinets.
>
> Anyone notice that the garage which Norm was in looks like same place that
> he did
> the 2 episode garage make over in.
Yeah, ;~) I also noticed that the TS and miter saw were still looking like
they were eager to cut their first boards.
Karl <[email protected]> laid this on me:
> I don't recall Norm using any brads in this episode, or at least not
> that they showed. The cabinet bottem was held with glue and screws,
> the face frames were put together with glue and pocket hole screws and
> then glued to the cabinets.
>
> Anyone notice that the garage which Norm was in looks like same place
> that he did the 2 episode garage make over in.
A couple weeks ago, I watched the NYW where he builds his mailbox,
and puts it out in front of his house with 4 or 5 other mailboxes. Great,
fine, etc.
Immediately following NYW was Ask This Old House, where they "got a
letter from a viewer who wanted a better way for the mailman and visitors
to see his house numbers."
So they pull up the street to this guy's mailbox - and sure enough,
right there is the mailbox I had just watched Nahm build, same
street/numbers/colors and all, just a tad worse for the wear.
"A random viewer" - yeah, OK.
Sean
--
There is an old saying that if a million monkeys
typed on a million keyboards for a million years,
eventually all the works of Shakespeare would be produced.
Now, thanks to Usenet, we know this is not true.
George said:
>"Greg G." <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> George said:
>>>
>>>Yeah, FWIW, look what WMH is doing to the Performax brand.
>>
>> Please enlighten; as only one man I can hardly keep up with so much
>> muckraking and corporate plundering without some help. :-\
>
>Just for you and the others too lazy, consider the following:
>http://www.performaxpowertools.com/
Well, thanks for the link, but the implication that we are "too lazy"
to surf the web looking for obscure critiques which may be real or
imagined is rather impudent. Many here work and access the net in 30
second spurts; not everyone is a retiree who has all day to surf for
referenced trivia. Nor is it a classroom where research is a
constituent element of the graded curriculum.
That aside, I about choked when I saw the site. On that point, you are
correct. The lowest common denominator apparently reigns supreme.
Greg G.
Leon said:
>
>"Greg G." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Karl said:
>>
>>>I noticed that Norm seems to be using a new Dado set this season, anyone
>>>have
>>>any idea who makes it and perhaps what model. It comes in what looks to
>>>be a
>>>sturdy carrying case with the main blades and shims on one side and the
>>>chippers on the other.
>>
>> If the case was red, it's a Freud. Yet considering the sponsers of the
>> show, I would expect a the new Dewalt with black tape over the logo.
>>
>>
>> Greg G.
>
>I have noticed that TOH is going strong with Festool these days.
I've seen the ads and promos. The whole concept of Festool kinda
flies in the face of the widely held belief (in this country) that you
can't sell a product unless it is a cheap Chinese POS marketed at
Wally World. Seems the Stanleys and B&Ds of the world are more
interested in repeat small profits on mass volumes rather than
reputation and more profit on smaller volumes. Ah, gotta love those
publicly traded US corporations and their idiot boards when they ride
another brand name down the tubes.
I've looked at the Festool product line in person, but have used none
of them. They appear to be very well constructed. Heavy gears and
housings. The Domino stands out as the most uniquely valuable of the
lot. The saw is kinda gimmicky for my needs, but the homeowner who
doesn't need a table saw or the lightweight professional in the field
would likely find it more valuable.
Also, Powermatic/WHM Tools is now sponsoring a new series on PBS
called the Woodsmith Shop. The first episode air in my area was today.
It was uneven and the hosts stilted. The show was about tuning
bandsaws, yet I found it rather ironic that they chose a blade with a
bad weld to use while filming the show. It about drove me up the wall
whenever they powered it up. Either they're just getting their sea
legs, or it needs a new producer that isn't also a CEO.
So to wrap that back around to Norm, they have a winner in him, and
B&D had better watch it lest WMH Tool Group outbids them as a sponsor.
It could prove to be a crippling blow to Delta.
FWIW,
Greg G.
"Frank Boettcher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> But that pricing difference comes from difference in size, features,
> and options, not by offering a completely different quality of
> manufacture level and using the same brand name.
I don't necessarily agree with that. When I go into a Chevy dealer, they
have cars that are tens of thousands of dollars apart in price. Size,
features and options all come into play and to me anyway, that translates
into a noticeable difference in quality. Only consideration is that much of
the auto industry is regulated as to safety so they have to meet some level
of standards, much more so than a table saw manufacturer.
But, to put this part of the discussion to rest, I agree with you at a
certain level that General's two lines can confuse some people who are not
as completely informed as they might be. I'm certainly glad I'm past that
point. I probably should be aspiring to an even higher level of tool
knowledge and consider some of the European lines of tools, but until I have
that kind of money, I'm not even going to consider it. :)
On Tue, 8 Jan 2008 15:34:06 -0500, "Upscale" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>"Frank Boettcher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> The best strategy is to completly separate the lines with absolutely
>> no link bottom to top.
>
>You could be right, but I think it depends on how one looks at it. When you
>buy from a car dealership, there's products for the thrifty person and the
>person with large quantities of disposable income.
But that pricing difference comes from difference in size, features,
and options, not by offering a completely different quality of
manufacture level and using the same brand name.
Frank
On Jan 9, 11:57=A0am, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
SNIP of good stuff
Can I get an AMEN on the snippage? I feel like just about any tool
these days I buy has a timer on it as to when it will crap out. I
know there are a lot of defenders of their favorite tools, but most
are just usable junk.
> my $ 0.0204 worth
And I agree with both of them. Not sure about the other 0.0004,
though...
Robert
On Jan 9, 11:37=A0am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Jan 9, 7:22=A0am, Frank Boettcher <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > But that pricing difference comes from difference in size, features,
> > and options, not by offering a completely different quality of
> > manufacture level and using the same brand name.
>
> Staying with the thread being about about tools, I think in context
> this is probably spot on. =A0I remember when you used to buy Rockwell
> brand tools WHEN you could afford them. =A0They made 2 regular circular
> saws that were used by professional carpenters when I started out in
> '72. =A0 The 315 was a 7 1/4" saw, and the 346 was their "trim" model
> that housed a mighty 6 1/2" blade. =A0They had some other specialty
> saws, but for the most part, if you bought a Rockwell saw for
> carpentry work, you bought one of those two.
>
> Across the board, Rockwell's products were good, to great quality.
> They catered to the professional, period. =A0In 1975, the first year I
> could afford a Rockwell 315 in all its glory, it was $135 bucks! =A0Look
> at the price of circular saws today to get a good reference. =A0While
> typing this, I remember too, I didn't take that home in a week.
>
> As they changed their marketing approach (sale of assets, change in
> ownership, change of direction, etc.) they changed and made a
> homeowner/hobbyist line. =A0It was crap. =A0Pure, unadulterated crap. =A0B=
ut
> that engineering crept into their other lines and we started seeing a
> lot more plastic and a lot less fit and finish.
>
> Here's where it ties into Frank's post.
>
> On the jobsite, we never differetiated between any models Rockwell
> made. =A0Even though they used better standards to make their pro line,
> it was never brought up. =A0In about 24 months, the general consensus
> was that Rockwell "had gone to shit". =A0Period.
>
> That is what pushed me to buy my first Milwaukee tools. =A0To me, even
> though Rockwell was around for many more years and in some cases
> making good tools, I didn't want anything else to do with them as I
> felt like I couldn't trust them to not cheapen a tool I was relying on
> to make a living.
>
> Robert
That's how I feel about Porter Cable. It used to mean something. Their
old production routers didn't know how to quit.
Now, in some cases, when a PC router is a part of a package, it will
have a bearing-rebuild package available right away.
IOW, "here's your router... btw, it might behoove you to take some of
these bearings now, because they WILL fuck up tout-suite."
I was glad to see an affordable circular saw become available with the
blade on the left without having to drop big bucks on a worm drive.
In my peculiar situation, cutting 12' strips along a fence, that set-
up was something I thought would help me. So I bought the left-blade
Porter Cable. I already had a couple of regular saws, like my
Milwaukee and an old genuine Skill.
I looked at that PC and saw a cast magnesium shoe, quick- toolless
blade change, all looked nice.
It would have been nice if there had been some mechanical connection,
besides a piece of pop-can tin, that held that good-looking shoe to
the motor part. What a piece of shit. That thing flexed and wobbled
and made the worst cut I had ever seen. Just a minor bit of applied
pressure and the blade would angle an easy 5+ degrees on it's own free
will.
Good idea, lousy execution a la PC profile sander and PC 500 pocket
cutter.
I have, since, written off PC as a brand worth considering for
anything serious. Same with Ryobi, Craftsman, DeWalt (with a couple of
exceptions) Black and Decker, Skill..and Bosch was teetering for a
while there too, but they seem to have found their feet again.
If I WANT a piece of shit, I will drive to the Piece-O-Shit store and
BUY, knowingly, a piece of shit.
It is no wonder that the likes of Fein and Festool, Milwaukee and
Makita, Bosch and Metabo are selling tools. (Caveat: NONE of them are
perfect, as not ALL the products from the 'DISLIKE' category are crap.
There are always exceptions.)
my $ 0.0204 worth.
"Frank Boettcher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 8 Jan 2008 15:34:06 -0500, "Upscale" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Frank Boettcher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> The best strategy is to completly separate the lines with absolutely
>>> no link bottom to top.
>>
>>You could be right, but I think it depends on how one looks at it. When
>>you
>>buy from a car dealership, there's products for the thrifty person and the
>>person with large quantities of disposable income.
>
> But that pricing difference comes from difference in size, features,
> and options, not by offering a completely different quality of
> manufacture level and using the same brand name.
>
True, but different quality levels has always been a part of industries that
attempt to appeal to a broad customer base. There have always been
companies that sell economy, mid and high end products. I submit that the
bigger reason that the high end products suffer is that the mid tier has
risen in quality and affordability, thus displacing the high end. In many
cases, the high end has simply come down due to access to the customer -
read, the likes of the BORGs. Volume purchasing has made what was once out
of touch, now available.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Jan 9, 7:22=A0am, Frank Boettcher <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> But that pricing difference comes from difference in size, features,
> and options, not by offering a completely different quality of
> manufacture level and using the same brand name.
Staying with the thread being about about tools, I think in context
this is probably spot on. I remember when you used to buy Rockwell
brand tools WHEN you could afford them. They made 2 regular circular
saws that were used by professional carpenters when I started out in
'72. The 315 was a 7 1/4" saw, and the 346 was their "trim" model
that housed a mighty 6 1/2" blade. They had some other specialty
saws, but for the most part, if you bought a Rockwell saw for
carpentry work, you bought one of those two.
Across the board, Rockwell's products were good, to great quality.
They catered to the professional, period. In 1975, the first year I
could afford a Rockwell 315 in all its glory, it was $135 bucks! Look
at the price of circular saws today to get a good reference. While
typing this, I remember too, I didn't take that home in a week.
As they changed their marketing approach (sale of assets, change in
ownership, change of direction, etc.) they changed and made a
homeowner/hobbyist line. It was crap. Pure, unadulterated crap. But
that engineering crept into their other lines and we started seeing a
lot more plastic and a lot less fit and finish.
Here's where it ties into Frank's post.
On the jobsite, we never differetiated between any models Rockwell
made. Even though they used better standards to make their pro line,
it was never brought up. In about 24 months, the general consensus
was that Rockwell "had gone to shit". Period.
That is what pushed me to buy my first Milwaukee tools. To me, even
though Rockwell was around for many more years and in some cases
making good tools, I didn't want anything else to do with them as I
felt like I couldn't trust them to not cheapen a tool I was relying on
to make a living.
Robert
Greg G. wrote:
> >
> That aside, I about choked when I saw the site. On that point, you are
> correct. The lowest common denominator apparently reigns supreme.
Not at all.
It appears that WMH is trying to create several distinct brands.
At first glance, I can see them positioning Powermatic as the top end,
Jet as a serious hobby to small-shop pro, and Performax to a the
portable, contractor market, maybe with some entry level stuff.
Notice that the Performax drum sanders are renamed to Jet, and do not
remain with the portable tools.
To me, this seems like a rather logical brand rearrangement, rather than
evidence of "racing to the bottom".
It all makes a lot more sense to me than General adding "International"
to the name plate or Delta adding "Shopmaster" to the decal. More often
than not people totally missed the added word and considered them the
real deal, rather than a lower-end alternative to the flagship brand.
"Greg G." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Ah, gotta love those
> publicly traded US corporations and their idiot boards when they ride
> another brand name down the tubes.
>
SNIP
>
> Also, Powermatic/WHM Tools is now sponsoring a new series on PBS
> called the Woodsmith Shop. The first episode air in my area was today.
> It was uneven and the hosts stilted. The show was about tuning
> bandsaws, yet I found it rather ironic that they chose a blade with a
> bad weld to use while filming the show. It about drove me up the wall
> whenever they powered it up. Either they're just getting their sea
> legs, or it needs a new producer that isn't also a CEO.
>
> So to wrap that back around to Norm, they have a winner in him, and
> B&D had better watch it lest WMH Tool Group outbids them as a sponsor.
> It could prove to be a crippling blow to Delta.
>
> FWIW,
>
Yeah, FWIW, look what WMH is doing to the Performax brand.
"Greg G." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> At the risk of rising to the (regularly recurring) motions of a
> Garcia/Mitchell 500, Norm is the only guy I know who can actually do
> something useful with his tools. (Stop with the snickering, you
> juvenile wankers...) Although I've never built anything from the
> show, I have watched every episode of NYW and most of the TOH series.
> I have propped up their sponsors with many purchases, however, so I
> suppose he is doing his job. Yet compared to the deluge of utterly
> superficial and narcissistic BS on television, Norm and Silvan et al.
> are a breath of fresh air. Even though I've already done the kitchen
> remodel thing, and was rather disappointed to see than the majority of
> this year's episodes are about remodeling Morash's kitchen, I'm still
> waiting for 10:30AM Sunday to add the 20th season to my CD collection.
I'll agree, Norn and the Silvan brothers are still very credible. I have
been recording the American Woodshop with Scott ????. He has been around a
very long time also and seems to be going backwards, fast. I am sure he
could perhaps out do me but the stuff on his show reminds me of the other
guy on WoodWorking, not David on Woodworks, the guy that insists on calling
his SCMS a Radial Arm Saw.
Scott built and donated 2 library tables to an old hotel that is being
renovated and turned into a library. The guy in charge insisted on
completely covering the table tops with stone after Scott "slopped" on 3
coats of Shellac and a coat or two of varnish on the tops. From a distance
the tables looked "OK" without the stone tops hiding the finish.
>
> Happy 20th Norm - Seriously. Here is hoping for 20 more.
Yeah!
Regarding th brads and a "classic builder" I was really just saying
Norm is perfectly OK with filled nail holes and this is kind of a
finish carpenter attitude vs a furniture builder. Seeing a filled nail
hole, to me, is not something you should find on a piece of furniture.
Maybe it's OK on a kitchen cabinet but will you see any nail holes on
a Darrel Peart table or chair?
Finally, even though I was woodworking prior to Nahm's show I'm not
sure I would have turned an early profession into a life passion
withouth his influence.
Long live the Nahm!
On Jan 6, 6:11=A0am, LRod <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sat, 5 Jan 2008 15:35:02 -0800 (PST), "SonomaProducts.com"
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >Tone can easily be lost in email and chat. Sorry it sounded that way.
> >Norm is someone I really look up to. I do make jabs at him about his
> >use of the brad nailer. Many times the use of a clamp and a caul and a
> >little waiting can keep from having filled holes. Norm is moving fast
> >for the cameras so he put nails holes in pieces a classic builder
> >would never think of.
>
> Well, I guess I'm not a classic builder, but then, who is? It seems to
> me it's just another tool which "classic builders" of yore didn't use
> because they didn't have them. Reminds me of an argument used in ham
> radio by some people who claim that "Q" signals (three letter
> abbreviations for various common phrases) were invented for CW (Morse
> code) and shouldn't be used in voice communications. BS! I say. They
> were invented when CW was the only mode--phone capabilities woudn't be
> developed for another 50 years.
>
> >He also isn't really known for his finishes but
> >I really am hoping to learn something from him on the finishing
> >techniques because I'm sure he can do an awesome job if he puts some
> >thought into it.
>
> Actually, I thought he's really progressed in the last ten years. He
> used to do nothing but stain and poly (sending Norm bashers into orbit
> faster than the brad nails), but he's used his five (or four or six)
> step process a lot in recent years--aniline dye, sealer, glaze,
> filler, wipe on (as opposed to brush on), and sometimes a shellac
> thrown in there somewhere. No, he's never done a French polish, but
> who among us has?
>
> I appreciate your response. I'm sensitive to Norm bashing because I
> think the very fact that there are sufficient woodworkers to populate
> the wreck and the dozens (well, many) forums is due in large (very
> large) part to his presence and inspiration.
>
> --
> LRod
>
> Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
>
> Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
>
> http://www.woodbutcher.nethttp://www.normstools.com
>
> Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997
>
> email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
> If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
> care to correspond with you anyway.
On Sat, 5 Jan 2008 13:37:13 -0800 (PST), "SonomaProducts.com"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Nahm will be doing a 9-episode custom kitchen this season so we should
>get all te answers we ever needed on cabinet building.
>
>Old Nahm surely inspired me and I'll always be grateful to him. I am
>looking forward to his final episode this season where he will do a 9
>step finish process to a pine and maple side table to "make it look
>100 years old".
Gee, just look how nice your post sounds when you take all the
derogatory "brad nail" and "stain that looks like paint" comments out.
Damning with faint praise is what you sounded like. You could even
have saved some bandwidth, too.
--
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
http://www.normstools.com
Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997
email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.
"EWCM" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>> 2. I guess because of poor design of the face frames he had to use
>> veneer
>> on the front of the bottom shelf of the cabinet because the face frame
>> does not cover the bottom shelf completely. The completed cabinet shown
>> on the floor, the bottom face frame rail is about 3/8" lower than the
>> bottom shelf. Add to that, the shot showing clamp up is not the same
>> cabinet shown finished. I guess they have a plan that has not been
>> mentioned yet. I guess they are going to have inset doors and will allow
>> for the bottom shelf to stop the door. Looks screwed up to me.
>>
> I think Nahm said he planned the face fram/shelf bottom to provide the
> stop for the inset door.
I probably missed that, still I would have put a stop at the top and out of
sight.
Karl <[email protected]> wrote:
>Anyone notice that the garage which Norm was in looks like same place that he did
>the 2 episode garage make over in.
That was my thought, but it looks like it could use another makeover.
Leon said:
>"Greg G." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> At the risk of rising to the (regularly recurring) motions of a
>> Garcia/Mitchell 500, Norm is the only guy I know who can actually do
>> something useful with his tools. (Stop with the snickering, you
>> juvenile wankers...) Although I've never built anything from the
>> show, I have watched every episode of NYW and most of the TOH series.
>> I have propped up their sponsors with many purchases, however, so I
>> suppose he is doing his job. Yet compared to the deluge of utterly
>> superficial and narcissistic BS on television, Norm and Silvan et al.
>> are a breath of fresh air. Even though I've already done the kitchen
>> remodel thing, and was rather disappointed to see than the majority of
>> this year's episodes are about remodeling Morash's kitchen, I'm still
>> waiting for 10:30AM Sunday to add the 20th season to my CD collection.
>
>
>I'll agree, Norn and the Silvan brothers are still very credible. I have
>been recording the American Woodshop with Scott ????. He has been around a
>very long time also and seems to be going backwards, fast. I am sure he
>could perhaps out do me but the stuff on his show reminds me of the other
>guy on WoodWorking, not David on Woodworks, the guy that insists on calling
>his SCMS a Radial Arm Saw.
>Scott built and donated 2 library tables to an old hotel that is being
>renovated and turned into a library. The guy in charge insisted on
>completely covering the table tops with stone after Scott "slopped" on 3
>coats of Shellac and a coat or two of varnish on the tops. From a distance
>the tables looked "OK" without the stone tops hiding the finish.
Of all the shows I've seen, on PBS or HGTV, Norm et al. and David
Marks are the cream. The massive proliferation of half-hour refurb and
landscaping shows, for the most part, are an abomination. Mass
marketed fluff that is poorly conceived, demonstrates dangerous work
methods and poor quality workmanship. But to each his own...
I've only seen a few episodes of Router Workshop & American Woodshop.
Our PBS affiliate doesn't seem interested in carrying them long term.
Norm has been the only long term player. The RW is a tool in search of
a problem sometimes best solved by application of another tool, and AW
is a bit down home and rustic. Of the two, I find AW preferable.
But that Scott fellow on HGTV is a dweeb. I find it amazing that he
has survived this long, counter to Darwin's Law.
But Leon, I suspect my photochopped image has assaulted a sacred cow.
No worries, all in fun. You've gotta have a pretty thick skin to
survive notoriety these days. People can be so cruel and petty. ;-)
>> Happy 20th Norm - Seriously. Here is hoping for 20 more.
>
>Yeah!
Sad part is, who will replace him when he hangs up his tool belt.
Even more sobering, will we still be around when he does.
FWIW,
Greg G.
On Sat, 5 Jan 2008 15:44:25 -0500, "Buddy Matlosz"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080105/ENT/801050403/1031
>
>And to all the Norm-bashers out there:
>
>Up yours, ya jealous bastuhds. Most of you couldn't carry Norms' tool belt.
>
>B.
>
This day is called the feast of Nahm:
He that outlives this day, and comes safe home,
Will stand a tip-toe when the day is named,
And rouse him at the name of Nahm.
He that shall live this day, and see old age,
Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours,
And say 'To-morrow is Saint Nahm:'
Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars.
And say 'These wounds I had on Nahm's day.'
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot,
But he'll remember with advantages
What feats he did that day: then shall our names.
Familiar in his mouth as household words
Morash the king, Silva and Trethewey,
Cook and Gallant, Dee and Roy,
Be in their flowing cups freshly remember'd.
This story shall the good man teach his son;
And Nahm Nahm shall ne'er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remember'd;
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition:
And gentlemen in Nahmland now a-bed
Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Nahm's day.
(my vaguest apologies)
Regards,
Tom Watson
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
"Greg G." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Karl said:
>
>>I noticed that Norm seems to be using a new Dado set this season, anyone
>>have
>>any idea who makes it and perhaps what model. It comes in what looks to
>>be a
>>sturdy carrying case with the main blades and shims on one side and the
>>chippers on the other.
>
> If the case was red, it's a Freud. Yet considering the sponsers of the
> show, I would expect a the new Dewalt with black tape over the logo.
>
>
> Greg G.
I have noticed that TOH is going strong with Festool these days.
George said:
>"Greg G." <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>SNIP
>>
>> Also, Powermatic/WHM Tools is now sponsoring a new series on PBS
>> called the Woodsmith Shop. The first episode air in my area was today.
>>
>> So to wrap that back around to Norm, they have a winner in him, and
>> B&D had better watch it lest WMH Tool Group outbids them as a sponsor.
>> It could prove to be a crippling blow to Delta.
>>
>
>Yeah, FWIW, look what WMH is doing to the Performax brand.
Please enlighten; as only one man I can hardly keep up with so much
muckraking and corporate plundering without some help. :-\
Greg G.
On Wed, 9 Jan 2008 09:07:10 -0500, "Upscale" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>"Frank Boettcher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> But that pricing difference comes from difference in size, features,
>> and options, not by offering a completely different quality of
>> manufacture level and using the same brand name.
>
>I don't necessarily agree with that. When I go into a Chevy dealer, they
>have cars that are tens of thousands of dollars apart in price. Size,
>features and options all come into play and to me anyway, that translates
>into a noticeable difference in quality. Only consideration is that much of
>the auto industry is regulated as to safety so they have to meet some level
>of standards, much more so than a table saw manufacturer.
I guess it has to do with how each of us defines quality. Size,
features and options does not do it for me. If each of those cars is
made in factories that have the same philosophy with regard to the
statistical capability of each of the processes that make and assemble
the parts, the quality level in my view is the same regardless of the
size, features and options. In the case originally sited about
woodworking machinery, that is not the case. There is a distinct
difference between the statistical capability to produce good parts
and assemble good units. If they are branded in a way that the
individual confuses the two, the top will eventually suffer. Watched
it happen up close and personal.
>
>But, to put this part of the discussion to rest, I agree with you at a
>certain level that General's two lines can confuse some people who are not
>as completely informed as they might be. I'm certainly glad I'm past that
>point. I probably should be aspiring to an even higher level of tool
>knowledge and consider some of the European lines of tools, but until I have
>that kind of money, I'm not even going to consider it. :)
>
Wasn't commenting on your personal ability to distinguish, only said
that it is a statistical reality that the population in general cannot
or chooses to be fooled.
Frank
"Puckdropper" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> You'll have to tell us what you're referring to, I cannot read your
> mind. Do you think Performax tools are going down in quality? Are you
> saying they're doing better?
You could have read the post. You and Greg could both benefit from spending
half as much time learning as responding. Performax, as indicated in the
original post, is a respected brand name purchased by a conglomerate who has
rebadged its products and taken the good name into the cheap end of the
pool.
It's certainly nothing new, buying out the competition to get his patents,
but it is sort of sad to see the name which stood for quality dragged rather
than dropped.
B A R R Y said:
>Greg G. wrote:
>> >
>> That aside, I about choked when I saw the site. On that point, you are
>> correct. The lowest common denominator apparently reigns supreme.
>
>Not at all.
>
>It appears that WMH is trying to create several distinct brands.
>
>At first glance, I can see them positioning Powermatic as the top end,
>Jet as a serious hobby to small-shop pro, and Performax to a the
>portable, contractor market, maybe with some entry level stuff.
>
>Notice that the Performax drum sanders are renamed to Jet, and do not
>remain with the portable tools.
>
>To me, this seems like a rather logical brand rearrangement, rather than
>evidence of "racing to the bottom".
>
>It all makes a lot more sense to me than General adding "International"
>to the name plate or Delta adding "Shopmaster" to the decal. More often
>than not people totally missed the added word and considered them the
>real deal, rather than a lower-end alternative to the flagship brand.
There is truth in what you say, yet it is still bothersome to see the
shifting of previously distinct companies into corporate conglomerate
marketing agendas. The essence is that names mean little today.
Oh, well...
Greg G.
Karl said:
>I noticed that Norm seems to be using a new Dado set this season, anyone have
>any idea who makes it and perhaps what model. It comes in what looks to be a
>sturdy carrying case with the main blades and shims on one side and the
>chippers on the other.
If the case was red, it's a Freud. Yet considering the sponsers of the
show, I would expect a the new Dewalt with black tape over the logo.
Greg G.
"B A R R Y" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Upscale wrote:
>> You could be right, but I think it depends on how one looks at it. When
>> you
>> buy from a car dealership, there's products for the thrifty person and
>> the
>> person with large quantities of disposable income.
>
>
> There is a range, but did you ever notice that Toyota and Lexus cars are
> sold from different properties? The same goes for Infinity and Nissan.
In Houston it is not uncommon to see Cadilliacs and Buicks side by side on
the show room floor. For a while the closest Cadillac dealer had Cadillac,
Buick, GMC, and Hummer.
More so with American built cars you see a mix of the product lines.
"dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Leon wrote:
> ...
>
>> In Houston it is not uncommon to see Cadilliacs and Buicks side by side
>> on the show room floor. For a while the closest Cadillac dealer had
>> Cadillac, Buick, GMC, and Hummer.
>
> Here all of those plus Chevy and Toyota...
>
> What's the point of this? There are even dealerships I know of w/ mixed
> Chrysler/Ford/GM/Toyota/U_Pick_It on the same floor...
>
> --
The point, variety to offer the customer. Competition if fierce in Houston.
The more you have to offer the more likely you will sell something.
Keep in mind also that many brands have closely tied relationships.
Mazda and Ford build products for each other, Toyota, Suzuki, Isuzu,
Chevrolet, and Honda have all built for each other at some scale. Several
years ago the Chevy Nova was built by Toyota. Honda purchased the original
Passport from Isuzu but oddly Isuzu did not build that vehicle, Chevrolet
built all of them, The Blazer, Rodeo, and Passport.
"Frank Boettcher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> The best strategy is to completly separate the lines with absolutely
> no link bottom to top.
You could be right, but I think it depends on how one looks at it. When you
buy from a car dealership, there's products for the thrifty person and the
person with large quantities of disposable income. As with most companies.
Only difference on a website is that the printed word doesn't register in
the mind nearly as fast as the visual image and that's where the internet
falls down ~ at least for now. Don't forget, the internet is barely twenty
years old and old farts like us have to reorder our thinking to prevent
falling into the online pitfall of instant gratification. I wonder if kids
who have grown not knowing any period when the internet did not exist have
the same trouble we have?
Upscale wrote:
>
> You could be right, but I think it depends on how one looks at it. When you
> buy from a car dealership, there's products for the thrifty person and the
> person with large quantities of disposable income.
There is a range, but did you ever notice that Toyota and Lexus cars are
sold from different properties? The same goes for Infinity and Nissan.
Scion, as a newly created "hip", but lower-end brand, is sold by
specific folks, in a specifically decorated "dealership within a
dealership".
dpb wrote:
> Leon wrote:
> ...
>
>> In Houston it is not uncommon to see Cadilliacs and Buicks side by
>> side on the show room floor. For a while the closest Cadillac dealer
>> had Cadillac, Buick, GMC, and Hummer.
>
> Here all of those plus Chevy and Toyota...
>
> What's the point of this? There are even dealerships I know of w/ mixed
> Chrysler/Ford/GM/Toyota/U_Pick_It on the same floor...
>
> --
Different brands...
There is no $20000 Lexus, and there's no $80000 Toyota.
Leon wrote:
...
> In Houston it is not uncommon to see Cadilliacs and Buicks side by side on
> the show room floor. For a while the closest Cadillac dealer had Cadillac,
> Buick, GMC, and Hummer.
Here all of those plus Chevy and Toyota...
What's the point of this? There are even dealerships I know of w/ mixed
Chrysler/Ford/GM/Toyota/U_Pick_It on the same floor...
--
<<There is a range, but did you ever notice that Toyota and Lexus cars are
sold from different properties? The same goes for Infinity and Nissan.>>
When Acura was introduced into this country, the existing Honda dealers had
first crack at the franchises, but there was a catch: the Acura dealership
could not be located in or adjacent to the same town as that dealer's Honda
facility. So, for example, Schaller has a Honda showroom in New Britain but
had to locate their Acura store in Manchester. I'm sure they would have
preferred Morande's location, but it wasn't allowed.
Lee
--
To e-mail, replace "bucketofspam" with "dleegordon"
_________________________________
Lee Gordon
http://www.leegordonproductions.com
"Lee Gordon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> <<There is a range, but did you ever notice that Toyota and Lexus cars are
> sold from different properties? The same goes for Infinity and Nissan.>>
>
> When Acura was introduced into this country, the existing Honda dealers
> had first crack at the franchises, but there was a catch: the Acura
> dealership could not be located in or adjacent to the same town as that
> dealer's Honda facility. So, for example, Schaller has a Honda showroom
> in New Britain but had to locate their Acura store in Manchester. I'm
> sure they would have preferred Morande's location, but it wasn't allowed.
LOL, When Honda "Cars" were introduced into this country the existing Honda
motorcycle dealers had first crack at the franchises, but there was a catch.
Sound familiar? ;~)
The dealers had to eventually decide to sell motorcycles or automobiles but
not both from the same dealership.
On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 07:46:15 -0500, B A R R Y <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Upscale wrote:
>> It's
>> pretty obvious when you see the price discrepancy difference between General
>> and General International that there's a distinct difference between the
>> two. That's plenty of information for someone to dig deeper for additional
>> details.
>
>I agree, it should be obvious. My comments were drawn from experience
>of many forum messages from people who seemed confused.
And as one who has been through it, you are right, statistically
speaking. When a company does not clearly differentiate between their
various lines, blurring occurs in the market place. The ususal
outcome is that the top line suffers damage. This also happens to be
where the margins are usually highest and where the firms reputation
is anchored.
The big box junk at the bottom of the totem pole gets placement in the
home centers based on the reputation of the firms top line. But
margins get squeezed by the 800 lb. gorilla. You're not making any
money, but the volume is growing to the point you have to have it.
Then someone comes along and offers the gorilla a similar product for
a penny less and he gives them your shelf space. But by now, folks
are beginning to doubt the quality of your top line, so you have
trouble across all the lines.
The best strategy is to completly separate the lines with absolutley
no link bottom to top.
Frank
"Jim Stuyck" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Snip
>
> Oh...and I "caved in" maybe 10 years ago and bought a brad
> nailer. Every time I pick it up I regret having waited so long!
> Now, under close supervision,
Ok, don't go near a "pinner" nailer. I seldom use my brad nailer now that I
have the pinner. ;~)
Swingman let me use his pinner 1 year ago and I had to have one, and it does
get used often.
I let my 10-yr-old grandson
> and 8-yr-old granddaughter drive a few brads when they
> "assist" with my projects.
Cool.
"Greg G." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> George said:
>
>>"Greg G." <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>SNIP
>>>
>>> Also, Powermatic/WHM Tools is now sponsoring a new series on PBS
>>> called the Woodsmith Shop. The first episode air in my area was today.
>>>
>>> So to wrap that back around to Norm, they have a winner in him, and
>>> B&D had better watch it lest WMH Tool Group outbids them as a sponsor.
>>> It could prove to be a crippling blow to Delta.
>>>
>>
>>Yeah, FWIW, look what WMH is doing to the Performax brand.
>
> Please enlighten; as only one man I can hardly keep up with so much
> muckraking and corporate plundering without some help. :-\
>
>
>
> Greg G.
He may be referring to some of the Performax equipment now sporting a Jet
name.
Leon said:
>"Greg G." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> George said:
>>
>>>"Greg G." <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>SNIP
>>>>
>>>> Also, Powermatic/WHM Tools is now sponsoring a new series on PBS
>>>> called the Woodsmith Shop. The first episode air in my area was today.
>>>>
>>>> So to wrap that back around to Norm, they have a winner in him, and
>>>> B&D had better watch it lest WMH Tool Group outbids them as a sponsor.
>>>> It could prove to be a crippling blow to Delta.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Yeah, FWIW, look what WMH is doing to the Performax brand.
>>
>> Please enlighten; as only one man I can hardly keep up with so much
>> muckraking and corporate plundering without some help. :-\
>>
>
>He may be referring to some of the Performax equipment now sporting a Jet
>name.
Well hell, that's no problem, Leon. As long as some semblance of
quality remains. I have noticed that the castings for the
Jet/Powermatic bandsaws and such are exactly the same. Different
color and accessories. And better QC than Delta has managed thus far.
Greg G.
"SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Regarding th brads and a "classic builder" I was really just saying
Norm is perfectly OK with filled nail holes and this is kind of a
finish carpenter attitude vs a furniture builder. Seeing a filled nail
hole, to me, is not something you should find on a piece of furniture.
Maybe it's OK on a kitchen cabinet but will you see any nail holes on
a Darrel Peart table or chair?
What about thin strips of wood or moldings that hold glass in place?