An article in the recent Forbes magazine explains the Sears will
gradually disappear. The real estate occupied by the company is worth
more than the stock value. Thus it makes sense to sell of pieces to
recover the value of the real estate. It cannot be done all at once due
to taxes. Much of the gain can be used ot offset loses from K-mart. I
realize that much of this newsgroup considers Sears products to be
greatly inferior. Many of us initially purchased Craftsman tools when
that was all we could afford.
The head of K-mart is not a man who has made his name in the retail
markets. He has made his reputation by being a trader.
Dick
"The real estate occupied by the company is worth more than the stock
value. Thus it makes sense to sell of pieces to recover the value of
the real estate"
This is typical of the cursory insight provided by the likes of Forbes.
The analysis assumes a static equity valuation, clearly a weak
assumption, particularly given that the catalyst for the article is
probably the merger. If we assume the first sentence is true, the
question should be "why?". It must be that the real estate is more
valuable in some other use, than it is to Sears, as currently
configured. The new strategy, the merger, etc. were undertaken,
presumably, to add value to the company. At some stock valuation, the
stores will exceed that value of the real estate in some other use. I
have no opinion on whether the strategy will pay off in the long run,
but is is silly to assume that liquidation is the optimal path, as
Forbes has apparently concluded.
GregP wrote:
> KMart has already sold off stores located on properties
> with high values.
Hey no problem here then. Sears sits in a mall where the other two anchor
stores are empty, and the whole thing is perpetually almost vacant.
Ours should be one of the last to go then. :)
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/
As another pointed out, Sears (or at least someone with some influence!) has
actually been listening to what's happened to the Craftsman trade name by
the schlocking-down of the tools that made it what it once was.
Now you find "Craftsman" and "Craftsman PROFESSIONAL" tools side by side on
the shelves.
The "Craftsman" tools are those we all deride -- the Ryobi re-dos and the
Blank & Fletcher foul-ups.
The CRAFTSMAN PROFESSIONAL line is another story! Those suckers cost (a
lot) more for good reason: they're actually substantaial tools. Those new
table saws by Orion (22124 and the others) and the 15" Lathe and the
Planer-Jointer are prime examples that Sears is really making its way back
to providing real value over the long haul while remaining "right around the
corner". That "being right around the corner" is going to continue to mean
a lot to the final purchase decision -- especially when the machine quality
is "right there" up against the mail-order competition.
--
-- Steve
www.ApacheTrail.com/ww/
Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> writes:
> One other bit of questionable analysis: since most Sears stores are in
>shopping centers, my understanding was that this was lease space. Sears
>could vacate, but gain no appreciation in value because it is the mall
>owner, not Sears that owns the building and the real estate.
Many mall anchor stores are owned by the tenant. The mall only owns the
common space and the non-anchor stores.
Brian Elfert
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>My 20+ year old Craftsman items were purchased because I thought they
>were better than department store tools at the time of purchase. The
>Craftsman stuff was usually MORE EXPENSIVE than a typical department
>store brand, not, "the only thing I could afford". I truly THOUGHT
>that I was buying a high quality tool.
You WERE. Twenty years ago. Hand tools, anyway. I'm still using Craftsman
wrenches and the like, that I bought 25-30 years ago, and they're still good
tools.
Farther back than that, the power tools were good, too.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.
On 11 Dec 2004 09:52:57 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
>"The real estate occupied by the company is worth more than the stock
>value. Thus it makes sense to sell of pieces to recover the value of
>the real estate"
>
>This is typical of the cursory insight provided by the likes of Forbes.
Actually I'd say Forbes is quite in tune with modern practice and in
this case I believe they have called it correctly.
>The analysis assumes a static equity valuation, clearly a weak
>assumption, particularly given that the catalyst for the article is
>probably the merger. If we assume the first sentence is true, the
>question should be "why?". It must be that the real estate is more
>valuable in some other use, than it is to Sears, as currently
>configured. The new strategy, the merger, etc. were undertaken,
>presumably, to add value to the company.
You'd think so, wouldn't you?
Sadly, in many cases you'd be wrong. Such mergers, buyouts, etc. are
all too often undertaken as a way to get the value _out_ of the
company rather than to add value to it.
This isn't at all uncommon, although it appears to be primarily a
post-WWII phenomenon. One of the things that finally killed pulp
magazines was that the major distributor was cannibalized in exactly
this way.
The people who now control Sears are not retailers and I doubt
seriously they have much idea how to turn around a company as troubled
as Sears. After all, K-Mart hasn't exactly been soaring under their
leadership. True, it is out of bankruptcy and showing a profit, but
much of that is a result of the restructuring that was done in
bankruptcy, not major improvements in their performance.
OTOH Sears is still sitting on a lot of prime suburban real estate,
acquired 40 or 50 years ago at low prices. That makes it an attractive
target for cannibalization.
> At some stock valuation, the
>stores will exceed that value of the real estate in some other use. I
>have no opinion on whether the strategy will pay off in the long run,
>but is is silly to assume that liquidation is the optimal path, as
>Forbes has apparently concluded.
The question, of course, is 'optimal for whom?' (Or 'who', but let's
not go there.) For the company, or even for the stockholders in
general, selling off the real estate and folding the company might not
be optimal at all. However the people driving things at Sears/KMart
are not average stock holders. They are traders who are used to making
money buying and selling things rather than by building and running
businesses. From their standpoint they believe the maximum ROI lies in
tearing Sears apart and selling off the pieces.
--RC
Projects expand to fill the clamps available -- plus 20 percent
On 15 Dec 2004 14:37:07 GMT, Brian Elfert <[email protected]> wrote:
>Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> writes:
>
>> One other bit of questionable analysis: since most Sears stores are in
>>shopping centers, my understanding was that this was lease space. Sears
>>could vacate, but gain no appreciation in value because it is the mall
>>owner, not Sears that owns the building and the real estate.
>
>Many mall anchor stores are owned by the tenant. The mall only owns the
>common space and the non-anchor stores.
>
>Brian Elfert
That was certainly true in at least a couple of cases in this area. I
don't know about the others.
--RC
Projects expand to fill the clamps available -- plus 20 percent
On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 08:47:35 -0800, Tim Douglass
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Yeah, mine's a lot smaller than it was 15 years ago.
>
According to your website, that appears to be by choice, no?
Barry
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 22:54:32 -0500, GregP <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 14:59:14 GMT, Ba r r y
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>Union jobs, at least here in the Northeastern USA.
>>
>>On big commercial construction projects, all new tools are usually bid
>>into the job. At the end of the job, the trades people pick by
>>seniority what they want. Much of it goes to pawn shops, as these
>>folks already have what they want from other jobs.
>>
>>The rest of them are stolen from jobsites, vehicles, or home shops, or
>>pawned by legitimate owners with financial problems.
>>
>
> I hadn't heard of the construction handouts. I assumed that most
> of them were stolen, which is why I never go to pawn shops.
> It sounds like I should take a look some time.
Regardless of origin, I've never been overly impressed when I've gone
into pawn shops. The prices listed are so close to new retail, it just
isn't worth the risk or hassle. If they are marking high in order to
haggle, I've got better things to do with my time than that.
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 14:59:14 GMT, Ba r r y
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Union jobs, at least here in the Northeastern USA.
>
>On big commercial construction projects, all new tools are usually bid
>into the job. At the end of the job, the trades people pick by
>seniority what they want. Much of it goes to pawn shops, as these
>folks already have what they want from other jobs.
>
>The rest of them are stolen from jobsites, vehicles, or home shops, or
>pawned by legitimate owners with financial problems.
>
I hadn't heard of the construction handouts. I assumed that most
of them were stolen, which is why I never go to pawn shops.
It sounds like I should take a look some time.
What pee's me off about KMart/Sears is that they filed for Chapter 11
bankruptcy a year or 2 ago. I had 3,000 dollars worth of their common stock
and was told it was now worthless and to go ahead and claim it as a loss on
my income tax. And now, low and behold they go ahead and acquire Sears and
the so-called future looks bright for KMart. All of the sudden they got
cash to buy out Sears and us stock holders of a year or so ago are screwed
and can not recoup our money. It just doesn't seem fair. I'm thinking
about writing the SEC for an explanation. As far as I am concerned, before
I trade at KMart they can go pee up a rope.
It feels good to blow off steam now and then.
"Doug Winterburn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 22:02:55 -0800, Tim Douglass wrote:
>
> > True. But the unfortunate truth is that in many areas and industries
wages
> > have actually gone down over the last 20 years. 25 years ago I made more
> > per hour as a drywall finisher than they make now in this area - in fact
I
> > made more than twice what they are making. Granted, there are
differences
> > between Seattle area and Central Oregon, but a lot of the trades are
> > paying less now than they used to. Lots of high-tech jobs are also
paying
> > less than 10 years ago. I just wanted to ding the OP a bit about costs
and
> > wages.
>
> ...and yet, the average hourly wage continues to rise and is at an all
> time high, even adjusted for inflation. Some employment areas are
> over supplied and others under supplied, thus some wages drop and some
> increase, but overall folks are making more money. The info is
> available on the bls.gov site.
>
> -Doug
>
> --
>
> To escape criticism--do nothing, say nothing, be nothing." (Elbert
Hubbard)
>
That's altogether the wrong attitude. You should be happy to give up your
money to further the interest of corporate
America.
"Bob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:JTivd.651643$mD.273712@attbi_s02...
> What pee's me off about KMart/Sears is that they filed for Chapter 11
> bankruptcy a year or 2 ago. I had 3,000 dollars worth of their common
stock
> and was told it was now worthless and to go ahead and claim it as a loss
on
> my income tax. And now, low and behold they go ahead and acquire Sears
and
> the so-called future looks bright for KMart. All of the sudden they got
> cash to buy out Sears and us stock holders of a year or so ago are screwed
> and can not recoup our money. It just doesn't seem fair. I'm thinking
> about writing the SEC for an explanation. As far as I am concerned,
before
> I trade at KMart they can go pee up a rope.
> It feels good to blow off steam now and then.
>
>
>
> "Doug Winterburn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 22:02:55 -0800, Tim Douglass wrote:
> >
> > > True. But the unfortunate truth is that in many areas and industries
> wages
> > > have actually gone down over the last 20 years. 25 years ago I made
more
> > > per hour as a drywall finisher than they make now in this area - in
fact
> I
> > > made more than twice what they are making. Granted, there are
> differences
> > > between Seattle area and Central Oregon, but a lot of the trades are
> > > paying less now than they used to. Lots of high-tech jobs are also
> paying
> > > less than 10 years ago. I just wanted to ding the OP a bit about costs
> and
> > > wages.
> >
> > ...and yet, the average hourly wage continues to rise and is at an all
> > time high, even adjusted for inflation. Some employment areas are
> > over supplied and others under supplied, thus some wages drop and some
> > increase, but overall folks are making more money. The info is
> > available on the bls.gov site.
> >
> > -Doug
> >
> > --
> >
> > To escape criticism--do nothing, say nothing, be nothing." (Elbert
> Hubbard)
> >
>
>
In the fifties, I bought sockets from Crescent and from Craftsman. The
Craftsman sockets would take more abuse and Sears would exchange a
damaged one, no questions asked. Don't know about today but then, the
"perceived" quality didn't have anything to do with "made in America" or
advertising.
bob g.
Ba r r y wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 22:05:46 -0800, Richard Cline <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>>realize that much of this newsgroup considers Sears products to be
>>greatly inferior. Many of us initially purchased Craftsman tools when
>>that was all we could afford.
>
>
> Nowadays that theory really dosen't hold water.
>
> My 20+ year old Craftsman items were purchased because I thought they
> were better than department store tools at the time of purchase. The
> Craftsman stuff was usually MORE EXPENSIVE than a typical department
> store brand, not, "the only thing I could afford". I truly THOUGHT
> that I was buying a high quality tool.
>
> I also had a Sears credit card, as they gave them to everyone,
> including 18 year olds who barely had a job. Back then, Visa denied
> those folks. Sears sold only Craftsman, no DeWalt, Makita, etc...
> Also, "pro" brands, like DeWalt, Bosch, Porter Cable, and Makita were
> only sold by "tool dealers", often at list price.
>
> Competition from home centers, Al Gore's Internet, and among the
> brands themselves, changed all of that. 9.6v Makita drills are the
> same price now as they were 15 years ago, but are paychecks sure
> aren't!
>
> Over the years, I've realized that I often was buying overpriced
> department store quality tools. Craftsman of the late 70's and 80's
> was Black and Decker department store crap, but came with a blow
> molded case.
>
> Nowadays I see two levels of Craftsman tools:
>
> * The "Pro" version, such as the rebadged Bosch router. With today's
> BORGs and online tool sources, the Craftsman version is often more
> expensive than the native brand version. This tool is marketed at
> the guy who remembers when Craftsman was a good tool, but has explored
> the other brands.
>
> * The "yuppie" version, usually aimed at some non-existent price
> point. These tools are Kmart quality, with bells, whistles, and Bob
> Vila to sell it for slightly more than the Kmart version. With
> experience, the bells and whistles usually prove to be gimmicks. If
> it's more expensive, it must be better, right? They fall in between
> the cheapie and the lower-end home center version. Companies like
> Ryobi seem to pretty adept at meeting these challenges, with a better
> quality homeowner quality tool.
>
> Many of us "tool snobs" have a pile of Craftsman tools that suck, and
> in some cases are totally unfit for the job. These tools have been
> replaced with usable examples, so we spent much more in the long run.
> I try really hard to help others avoid doing the same Someone with
> limited funds is better off with pawn shop name brand tools.
>
> Screw me once, shame on you, screw me twice, shame on me! <G>
>
> Barry
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 22:54:32 -0500, GregP <[email protected]>
wrote:
> I hadn't heard of the construction handouts. I assumed that most
> of them were stolen, which is why I never go to pawn shops.
> It sounds like I should take a look some time.
On big union commercial jobs it's apparently easier and cheaper to buy
all new small power tools and abandon it at the end of the job.
During the job, the security people take a "nothing leaves" rule.
Between jobs, it's difficult and expensive for contractors to store
the stuff. This might also be a regional thing.
I guess this would be how you buy enough DeWalt for a free Corvette.
<G>
FWIW, I didn't believe this story the first time I heard it, but it's
been confirmed by many independent sources.
Barry
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 09:45:26 -0500, GregP <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 14:34:52 GMT, Ba r r y
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Someone with
>>limited funds is better off with pawn shop name brand tools.
>
>
> With the buying patterns you just described, don't
> you wonder just how is it that pawnshops end up
> with these tools ?
Union jobs, at least here in the Northeastern USA.
On big commercial construction projects, all new tools are usually bid
into the job. At the end of the job, the trades people pick by
seniority what they want. Much of it goes to pawn shops, as these
folks already have what they want from other jobs.
The rest of them are stolen from jobsites, vehicles, or home shops, or
pawned by legitimate owners with financial problems.
Barry
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 14:34:52 GMT, Ba r r y
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Competition from home centers, Al Gore's Internet, and among the
>brands themselves, changed all of that. 9.6v Makita drills are the
>same price now as they were 15 years ago, but are paychecks sure
>aren't!
Yeah, mine's a lot smaller than it was 15 years ago.
Tim Douglass
http://www.DouglassClan.com
On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 18:41:01 GMT, Ba r r y
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 08:47:35 -0800, Tim Douglass
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Yeah, mine's a lot smaller than it was 15 years ago.
>>
>
>
>According to your website, that appears to be by choice, no?
True. But the unfortunate truth is that in many areas and industries
wages have actually gone down over the last 20 years. 25 years ago I
made more per hour as a drywall finisher than they make now in this
area - in fact I made more than twice what they are making. Granted,
there are differences between Seattle area and Central Oregon, but a
lot of the trades are paying less now than they used to. Lots of
high-tech jobs are also paying less than 10 years ago. I just wanted
to ding the OP a bit about costs and wages.
Tim Douglass
http://www.DouglassClan.com
In article <JTivd.651643$mD.273712@attbi_s02>, "Bob" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> What pee's me off about KMart/Sears is that they filed for Chapter 11
> bankruptcy a year or 2 ago. I had 3,000 dollars worth of their common stock
> and was told it was now worthless and to go ahead and claim it as a loss on
> my income tax. And now, low and behold they go ahead and acquire Sears and
> the so-called future looks bright for KMart. All of the sudden they got
> cash to buy out Sears and us stock holders of a year or so ago are screwed
> and can not recoup our money. It just doesn't seem fair. I'm thinking
> about writing the SEC for an explanation.
When companies go bankrupt, the common stock holders usually lose
everything. The people who hold the company's debt (in the form of
bonds, usually) have to be repaid before the stockholders. That's the
price stockholders pay for the chance to make a lot more than the
bondholders; they also risk losing everything.
The KMart of today shares nothing with the previous KMart corporation
except the name. In this case, the Kmart's creditors got the remains of
the company, reorganized, and reissued new stock.
--
Hank Gillette
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote:
> The question, of course, is 'optimal for whom?' (Or 'who', but let's
> not go there.) For the company, or even for the stockholders in
> general, selling off the real estate and folding the company might not
> be optimal at all.
On the other hand, given the decline of the department store on one end,
and Walmart eating everyone's lunch on the discount side, liquidating
the company might be in everyone's best interest. Clearly the consumers'
aren't going there.
--
Hank Gillette
On 11 Dec 2004 09:52:57 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
>......I
>have no opinion on whether the strategy will pay off in the long run,
>but is is silly to assume that liquidation is the optimal path, as
>Forbes has apparently concluded.
KMart has already sold off stores located on properties
with high values.
On 13 Dec 2004 12:16:57 GMT, [email protected] (Kevin Daly)
wrote:
>> KMart has already sold off stores located on properties
>> with high values.
>
>Hehehe. Sears was the purchaser of many of these (I believe 66 was the last
>count).
That's right ! I forgot about that...
On 11 Dec 2004 09:52:57 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
>"The real estate occupied by the company is worth more than the stock
>value. Thus it makes sense to sell of pieces to recover the value of
>the real estate"
>
>This is typical of the cursory insight provided by the likes of Forbes.
>The analysis assumes a static equity valuation, clearly a weak
>assumption, particularly given that the catalyst for the article is
>probably the merger. If we assume the first sentence is true, the
>question should be "why?". It must be that the real estate is more
>valuable in some other use, than it is to Sears, as currently
>configured. The new strategy, the merger, etc. were undertaken,
>presumably, to add value to the company. At some stock valuation, the
>stores will exceed that value of the real estate in some other use. I
>have no opinion on whether the strategy will pay off in the long run,
>but is is silly to assume that liquidation is the optimal path, as
>Forbes has apparently concluded.
One other bit of questionable analysis: since most Sears stores are in
shopping centers, my understanding was that this was lease space. Sears
could vacate, but gain no appreciation in value because it is the mall
owner, not Sears that owns the building and the real estate.
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 14:34:52 GMT, Ba r r y
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Someone with
>limited funds is better off with pawn shop name brand tools.
With the buying patterns you just described, don't
you wonder just how is it that pawnshops end up
with these tools ?
On 15 Dec 2004 14:37:07 GMT, Brian Elfert <[email protected]> wrote:
>Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> writes:
>
>> One other bit of questionable analysis: since most Sears stores are in
>>shopping centers, my understanding was that this was lease space. Sears
>>could vacate, but gain no appreciation in value because it is the mall
>>owner, not Sears that owns the building and the real estate.
>
>Many mall anchor stores are owned by the tenant. The mall only owns the
>common space and the non-anchor stores.
>
Interesting, thanks for the information.
>Brian Elfert
On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 22:02:55 -0800, Tim Douglass wrote:
> True. But the unfortunate truth is that in many areas and industries wages
> have actually gone down over the last 20 years. 25 years ago I made more
> per hour as a drywall finisher than they make now in this area - in fact I
> made more than twice what they are making. Granted, there are differences
> between Seattle area and Central Oregon, but a lot of the trades are
> paying less now than they used to. Lots of high-tech jobs are also paying
> less than 10 years ago. I just wanted to ding the OP a bit about costs and
> wages.
...and yet, the average hourly wage continues to rise and is at an all
time high, even adjusted for inflation. Some employment areas are
over supplied and others under supplied, thus some wages drop and some
increase, but overall folks are making more money. The info is
available on the bls.gov site.
-Doug
--
To escape criticism--do nothing, say nothing, be nothing." (Elbert Hubbard)
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 15:51:05 +0000, Bob wrote:
> What pee's me off about KMart/Sears is that they filed for Chapter 11
> bankruptcy a year or 2 ago. I had 3,000 dollars worth of their common
> stock and was told it was now worthless and to go ahead and claim it as a
> loss on my income tax. And now, low and behold they go ahead and acquire
> Sears and the so-called future looks bright for KMart. All of the sudden
> they got cash to buy out Sears and us stock holders of a year or so ago
> are screwed and can not recoup our money. It just doesn't seem fair.
> I'm thinking about writing the SEC for an explanation. As far as I am
> concerned, before I trade at KMart they can go pee up a rope. It feels
> good to blow off steam now and then.
You could'a bought back into the re-organized company last year in May at
about $15/share. If you'd doubled up your investment of $3000 for a total
of $6000, it'd be worth $21,000 today for a tidy profit of $15,000.
<http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=KMRT&t=2y>
- Doug
--
To escape criticism--do nothing, say nothing, be nothing." (Elbert Hubbard)
>
>Nowadays that theory really dosen't hold water.
>
>My 20+ year old Craftsman items were purchased because I thought they
>were better than department store tools at the time of purchase. The
>Craftsman stuff was usually MORE EXPENSIVE than a typical department
>store brand, not, "the only thing I could afford". I truly THOUGHT
>that I was buying a high quality tool.
>
>I also had a Sears credit card, as they gave them to everyone,
>including 18 year olds who barely had a job. Back then, Visa denied
>those folks. Sears sold only Craftsman, no DeWalt, Makita, etc...
>Also, "pro" brands, like DeWalt, Bosch, Porter Cable, and Makita were
>only sold by "tool dealers", often at list price.
>
====================
I have to agree basically agree.....
I "outfitted" my "new"...lol since my old shop was the trunk of my
car...shop just after I got of of College and the military in the Mid
60's...
20 mile drive into town to Sears, Wards, & JC Penny or a 150 mile hike
to the big city that had a store that sold expensive machines... Sears
offered better tools then the two other stores...PLUS like you said
that little plastic card was my savior at the time...
I still use my belt/disc sander and am still in LOVE woith my floor
model Drill press... any yes I still have my RAS ...the other Sears
tools have long since been replaced...
But it was more the assumed quality, that darn Plastic card, and the
fact that SEARS was just down the road rather then 150 miles down the
Highway in the big city...
Bob Griffiths
of course today I honestly fell like I now live in the Big City...More
people locally then cows, No more covered bridges for sure... .
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 22:05:46 -0800, Richard Cline <[email protected]>
wrote:
>realize that much of this newsgroup considers Sears products to be
>greatly inferior. Many of us initially purchased Craftsman tools when
>that was all we could afford.
Nowadays that theory really dosen't hold water.
My 20+ year old Craftsman items were purchased because I thought they
were better than department store tools at the time of purchase. The
Craftsman stuff was usually MORE EXPENSIVE than a typical department
store brand, not, "the only thing I could afford". I truly THOUGHT
that I was buying a high quality tool.
I also had a Sears credit card, as they gave them to everyone,
including 18 year olds who barely had a job. Back then, Visa denied
those folks. Sears sold only Craftsman, no DeWalt, Makita, etc...
Also, "pro" brands, like DeWalt, Bosch, Porter Cable, and Makita were
only sold by "tool dealers", often at list price.
Competition from home centers, Al Gore's Internet, and among the
brands themselves, changed all of that. 9.6v Makita drills are the
same price now as they were 15 years ago, but are paychecks sure
aren't!
Over the years, I've realized that I often was buying overpriced
department store quality tools. Craftsman of the late 70's and 80's
was Black and Decker department store crap, but came with a blow
molded case.
Nowadays I see two levels of Craftsman tools:
* The "Pro" version, such as the rebadged Bosch router. With today's
BORGs and online tool sources, the Craftsman version is often more
expensive than the native brand version. This tool is marketed at
the guy who remembers when Craftsman was a good tool, but has explored
the other brands.
* The "yuppie" version, usually aimed at some non-existent price
point. These tools are Kmart quality, with bells, whistles, and Bob
Vila to sell it for slightly more than the Kmart version. With
experience, the bells and whistles usually prove to be gimmicks. If
it's more expensive, it must be better, right? They fall in between
the cheapie and the lower-end home center version. Companies like
Ryobi seem to pretty adept at meeting these challenges, with a better
quality homeowner quality tool.
Many of us "tool snobs" have a pile of Craftsman tools that suck, and
in some cases are totally unfit for the job. These tools have been
replaced with usable examples, so we spent much more in the long run.
I try really hard to help others avoid doing the same Someone with
limited funds is better off with pawn shop name brand tools.
Screw me once, shame on you, screw me twice, shame on me! <G>
Barry
They turned me down for a credit card in 1986. I had just gotten out of the
army. Had a perfect credit rating before going in. As ex military though, I
couldn't be trusted.
"Ba r r y" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I also had a Sears credit card, as they gave them to everyone,
> including 18 year olds who barely had a job.
Sears makes emough money through the Sears Bank, their real estate
company, Lens Crafters and other interests, they probably don't give a
shit if they sell another tool. Here's a hint. When I was in China a
couple years ago, there was a big building with the name Craftsman on
it. Supposedly, where Craftsman products are made. You'd have a better
chance of getting into a nuclear plant, because the Craftsman plant is
where they have their child and slave labor making clothes, not tools.
"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >
> I was thinking that same thing. Craftsman plant. Ha, ha, ha.
>
> - -
>
I fellow would die of old age looking for a manufacturing plant with a Sears
or Craftsman logo on it, seeing that Sears does not manufacture a thing they
sell!
Greg
Handsome Stranger blurts:
>Sears makes emough money through the Sears Bank, their real estate
>company, Lens Crafters and other interests, they probably don't give a
>shit if they sell another tool. Here's a hint. When I was in China a
>couple years ago, there was a big building with the name Craftsman on
>it. Supposedly, where Craftsman products are made. You'd have a better
>chance of getting into a nuclear plant, because the Craftsman plant is
>where they have their child and slave labor making clothes, not tools.
Do you ever gag on your own bullshit?
Charlie Self
"Man is the only animal that blushes. Or needs to." Mark Twain
Charlie Self wrote:
> Do you ever gag on your own bullshit?
Aw, cumon Charlie, tell us how you really feel. %-)
Dave in Fairfax
--
Dave Leader
reply-to doesn't work
use:
daveldr at att dot net
American Association of Woodturners
http://www.woodturner.org
Capital Area Woodturners
http://www.capwoodturners.org/
PATINA
http://www.Patinatools.org/
"Ba r r y" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 15:57:39 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> I was thinking that same thing. Craftsman plant. Ha, ha, ha.
>>>
>>> - -
>>> LRod
>>
>>Yes, it is in the same industrial park as the Kenmore plant.
And The "Kenmore" plant is right next to the park where the little Inca Dove
birdies cooo "Whirlpool" all the live long day.
> Isn't that right next to the Diehard factory?
No... that's off to the left behind the Bruce Willis statue
> Barry
--
-- Steve
www.ApacheTrail.com/ww/
"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> I was thinking that same thing. Craftsman plant. Ha, ha, ha.
>
> - -
> LRod
Yes, it is in the same industrial park as the Kenmore plant.
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 15:57:39 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> I was thinking that same thing. Craftsman plant. Ha, ha, ha.
>>
>> - -
>> LRod
>
>Yes, it is in the same industrial park as the Kenmore plant.
>
Isn't that right next to the Diehard factory?
Barry
LRod wrote:
> On 11 Dec 2004 08:51:08 GMT, [email protected] (Charlie Self)
> wrote:
>
>>Handsome Stranger blurts:
>>
>>>Sears makes emough money through the Sears Bank, their real estate
>>>company, Lens Crafters and other interests, they probably don't give a
>>>shit if they sell another tool. Here's a hint. When I was in China a
>>>couple years ago, there was a big building with the name Craftsman on
>>>it. Supposedly, where Craftsman products are made. You'd have a better
>>>chance of getting into a nuclear plant, because the Craftsman plant is
>>>where they have their child and slave labor making clothes, not tools.
>>
>>Do you ever gag on your own bullshit?
>
> I was thinking that same thing. Craftsman plant. Ha, ha, ha.
Probably was such a building--if you read the fine print it was probably the
"happy joyful lucky craftsman company" or some such (love those Oriental
names) and had nothing whatsoever to do with Sears.
>
> - -
> LRod
>
> Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
>
> Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
>
> http://www.woodbutcher.net
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
On 11 Dec 2004 08:51:08 GMT, [email protected] (Charlie Self)
wrote:
>Handsome Stranger blurts:
>
>>Sears makes emough money through the Sears Bank, their real estate
>>company, Lens Crafters and other interests, they probably don't give a
>>shit if they sell another tool. Here's a hint. When I was in China a
>>couple years ago, there was a big building with the name Craftsman on
>>it. Supposedly, where Craftsman products are made. You'd have a better
>>chance of getting into a nuclear plant, because the Craftsman plant is
>>where they have their child and slave labor making clothes, not tools.
>
>Do you ever gag on your own bullshit?
>
>Charlie Self
>"Man is the only animal that blushes. Or needs to." Mark Twain
come on, Charlie... quit holding back and tell 'em how you really
feel.. rofl
On 11 Dec 2004 08:51:08 GMT, [email protected] (Charlie Self)
wrote:
>Handsome Stranger blurts:
>
>>Sears makes emough money through the Sears Bank, their real estate
>>company, Lens Crafters and other interests, they probably don't give a
>>shit if they sell another tool. Here's a hint. When I was in China a
>>couple years ago, there was a big building with the name Craftsman on
>>it. Supposedly, where Craftsman products are made. You'd have a better
>>chance of getting into a nuclear plant, because the Craftsman plant is
>>where they have their child and slave labor making clothes, not tools.
>
>Do you ever gag on your own bullshit?
I was thinking that same thing. Craftsman plant. Ha, ha, ha.
- -
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 17:40:25 GMT, Ba r r y
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 15:57:39 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> I was thinking that same thing. Craftsman plant. Ha, ha, ha.
>>>
>>> - -
>>> LRod
>>
>>Yes, it is in the same industrial park as the Kenmore plant.
>>
>
>
>Isn't that right next to the Diehard factory?
>
Would be, but they couldn't get it started.
>Barry
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 15:57:39 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> I was thinking that same thing. Craftsman plant. Ha, ha, ha.
>Yes, it is in the same industrial park as the Kenmore plant.
complete with "child and slave labor?"
- -
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
Charlie Self wrote:
> Handsome Stranger blurts:
>
>
>>Sears makes emough money through the Sears Bank, their real estate
>>company, Lens Crafters and other interests, they probably don't give a
>>shit if they sell another tool. Here's a hint. When I was in China a
>>couple years ago, there was a big building with the name Craftsman on
>>it. Supposedly, where Craftsman products are made. You'd have a better
>>chance of getting into a nuclear plant, because the Craftsman plant is
>>where they have their child and slave labor making clothes, not tools.
>
>
> Do you ever gag on your own bullshit?
>
> Charlie Self
> "Man is the only animal that blushes. Or needs to." Mark Twain
I guess on your trips to China you saw quite a bit, huh Charley?
Handsome Stranger babbles:
>Charlie Self wrote:
>
>> Handsome Stranger blurts:
>>
>>
>>>Sears makes emough money through the Sears Bank, their real estate
>>>company, Lens Crafters and other interests, they probably don't give a
>>>shit if they sell another tool. Here's a hint. When I was in China a
>>>couple years ago, there was a big building with the name Craftsman on
>>>it. Supposedly, where Craftsman products are made. You'd have a better
>>>chance of getting into a nuclear plant, because the Craftsman plant is
>>>where they have their child and slave labor making clothes, not tools.
>>
>>
>> Do you ever gag on your own bullshit?
>>
>> Charlie Self
>> "Man is the only animal that blushes. Or needs to." Mark Twain
>
>I guess on your trips to China you saw quite a bit, huh Charley
Nope. But I do know enough to listen to people who aren't full of
invention...AKA as full of shit.
Craftsman's name wouldn't be on the plant, especially for making clothing, but
if it were, it would not be Sears, or at least would not have to be. Has anyone
else heard of Sears Bank? No. I thought no. Sears sold its real estate company
years ago.
IF, and I emphasize the IF, you were ever in China, you got your leg severely
yanked, I'd say. Or, as I suspect, you're a bullshitter who doesn't like to be
called on it.
Charlie Self
"Man is the only animal that blushes. Or needs to." Mark Twain