Just completed new birch ply base cabinets for a kitchen in a rental
apartment. I'd like them to match the original top cabinets that are still
in place.
I've tried several shades of minwax stains with both varnish and
polyurethane as a protective coat. I think I have the right "darkness" but
I'm having trouble matching the "orange" color of the original cabinets.
Could the orange tone be due to aging? The original cabinets are 40 years
old. Could I sand the original and recoat?
Any thoughts or suggestions would be aprreciated
TIA
Ken
Ok, fair enough, I stand corrected on the toner. Good information.
I also do not have a problem with oil as a grain enhancer. I, myself, don't
like to use it on light wood , I think it yellows to much, kind of looks
like a dog pissed on it.. My preference is a light application of aniline
dye matched as closely as possible to the woods own tone. Much as you
describe the toner application. On as dark wood, such as walnut, it's a
deferent story.
One question though. If a dye is used as a toner what fixes it on the non
pours finish undercoat?
--
Mike G.
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net
"Baron" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Mike G.,
> With all due respect, I strongly disagree with your conclusion that
"the
> process of sandwiching color between layers of finish also, and there is
no
> way around it, obscures the grain of the wood to one extent or another."
> It is pretty standard to use toners, whether they be lacquer or
shellac
> based, in finishing and refinishing. The toners I am referring to do not
> use pigments but rather dyes. While aniline dye is a misnomer as they are
> no longer used, the name has stuck around. The same dyes are in toners.
> They are completely transparent and only impart color, not detectable
> opacity. In fact, this technique tends to make the finish look more like
> stained glass rather than wood with mud on it. It is also easier to sneak
> up on a color with toners rather than with a stain applied directly to
wood.
> For obvious reasons, toners are much more reversible.
> For grain enhancement, a little oil on the wood does the trick
although
> shellac has some of the same refractive index properties. Shellac doesn't
> soak into the wood nearly as much as an oil so the effect with shellac is
> not nearly as dramatic.
> I agree with your comment with respect to glazes but not toners.
>
> "Mike G" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
Mike G.,
With all due respect, I strongly disagree with your conclusion that "the
process of sandwiching color between layers of finish also, and there is no
way around it, obscures the grain of the wood to one extent or another."
It is pretty standard to use toners, whether they be lacquer or shellac
based, in finishing and refinishing. The toners I am referring to do not
use pigments but rather dyes. While aniline dye is a misnomer as they are
no longer used, the name has stuck around. The same dyes are in toners.
They are completely transparent and only impart color, not detectable
opacity. In fact, this technique tends to make the finish look more like
stained glass rather than wood with mud on it. It is also easier to sneak
up on a color with toners rather than with a stain applied directly to wood.
For obvious reasons, toners are much more reversible.
For grain enhancement, a little oil on the wood does the trick although
shellac has some of the same refractive index properties. Shellac doesn't
soak into the wood nearly as much as an oil so the effect with shellac is
not nearly as dramatic.
I agree with your comment with respect to glazes but not toners.
"Mike G" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> This is just a thought and not a condemnation of glazes so don't no one
get
> a bent out of shape.
>
> Glazes and toners have their place and are handy techniques to be able to
> do. They are especially useful for blending heart and sap wood and
handling
> miss matched grain (as anyone who has ever stripped a factory produced
> cherry piece can attest to). They also work well as a way to accent
certain
> aspects of a piece or to handle difficult to stain woods..
>
> However, the process of sandwiching color between layers of finish also,
and
> there is no way around it, obscures the grain of the wood to one extent or
> another. It will rob it of most of the sense of depth you can get if there
> is nothing between the top of the finish and the wood.
>
> Where, as probably true in this case (red oak) or at least should be, none
> of the above is applicable an aniline dye is probably a much better
choice.
> Anilines, which soak into the cells of the wood rather then sitting on top
> of them, work wonderfully at enhancing grain and adding to the sense of
> depth.
>
> --
> Mike G.
> Heirloom Woods
> www.heirloom-woods.net
The dye is dissolved in the lacquer, shellac, etc. Vendors formulate
different toners to be compatible with their different lines of finishes.
Typically, the toner burns into the previous layer just like applying a
clear coat of shellac, lacquer, etc. If the toner is in something that is
not an evaporative finish, like a varnish, then it must be applied within a
time window or the previous film must be allowed to cure and then be
roughened so there will be a good mechanical hold. Typically, I make my own
toners just by adding TransTints to shellac and then either spraying or
brushing.
I agree you on the light versus dark wood and oil.
"Mike G" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Ok, fair enough, I stand corrected on the toner. Good information.
>
> I also do not have a problem with oil as a grain enhancer. I, myself,
don't
> like to use it on light wood , I think it yellows to much, kind of looks
> like a dog pissed on it.. My preference is a light application of aniline
> dye matched as closely as possible to the woods own tone. Much as you
> describe the toner application. On as dark wood, such as walnut, it's a
> deferent story.
>
> One question though. If a dye is used as a toner what fixes it on the non
> pours finish undercoat?
>
> --
> Mike G.
> Heirloom Woods
> www.heirloom-woods.net
Yes, aging changes the tone of the stain color. You might try using
some reddish analine dye (Available from woodworker's supply). I use
water base but you'll need to match the base of the type of stain you're
using. It comes in water, oil, and alcohol. Your stain is probably
water or oil based. It'll tell you on the container.
Mike in Pelham, NC
Ken Johnsen wrote:
>Just completed new birch ply base cabinets for a kitchen in a rental
>apartment. I'd like them to match the original top cabinets that are still
>in place.
>
>I've tried several shades of minwax stains with both varnish and
>polyurethane as a protective coat. I think I have the right "darkness" but
>I'm having trouble matching the "orange" color of the original cabinets.
>
>Could the orange tone be due to aging? The original cabinets are 40 years
>old. Could I sand the original and recoat?
>
>Any thoughts or suggestions would be aprreciated
>
>TIA
>
>Ken
>
>
>
>
Ken,
Read the thread "Water based glaze" that started on 7-28-03. As long as you
are using an oil based final finish, a glaze/toner should do the trick for
you.
One real advantage is that you can test your glaze/toner in a small area on
the cabinet and if it isn't good enough, wipe it off with paint thinner and a
rag and then adjust your color and try again.
Stewart
Ken Johnsen wrote:
> Just completed new birch ply base cabinets for a kitchen in a rental
> apartment. I'd like them to match the original top cabinets that are still
> in place.
>
> I've tried several shades of minwax stains with both varnish and
> polyurethane as a protective coat. I think I have the right "darkness" but
> I'm having trouble matching the "orange" color of the original cabinets.
>
> Could the orange tone be due to aging? The original cabinets are 40 years
> old. Could I sand the original and recoat?
>
> Any thoughts or suggestions would be aprreciated
>
> TIA
>
> Ken
Mike G wrote:
> This is just a thought and not a condemnation of glazes so don't no one get
> a bent out of shape.
>
> Glazes and toners have their place and are handy techniques to be able to
> do. They are especially useful for blending heart and sap wood and handling
> miss matched grain (as anyone who has ever stripped a factory produced
> cherry piece can attest to). They also work well as a way to accent certain
> aspects of a piece or to handle difficult to stain woods..
>
> However, the process of sandwiching color between layers of finish also, and
> there is no way around it, obscures the grain of the wood to one extent or
> another. It will rob it of most of the sense of depth you can get if there
> is nothing between the top of the finish and the wood.
>
> Where, as probably true in this case (red oak) or at least should be, none
> of the above is applicable an aniline dye is probably a much better choice.
> Anilines, which soak into the cells of the wood rather then sitting on top
> of them, work wonderfully at enhancing grain and adding to the sense of
> depth.
>
> --
> Mike G.
> Heirloom Woods
> www.heirloom-woods.net
Mike,
I wouldn't argue with anything you said. However, the posts I responded to were
unique because Ken wanted to match new work to old and Todd wanted to
experiment. In both cases I felt that a toner/glaze would work.
Another area where they are helpful is in restoration work when scratxches,
knicks, and veneer chips have to be repaired and colored. A thin glaze/toner can
help integrate the repair color with the rest of the color.
Stewart
As already suggested aniline dyes are one approach as is appropriately
colored pigments or appropriately based artist colors.
--
Mike G.
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net
"Ken Johnsen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Just completed new birch ply base cabinets for a kitchen in a rental
> apartment. I'd like them to match the original top cabinets that are still
> in place.
>
> I've tried several shades of minwax stains with both varnish and
> polyurethane as a protective coat. I think I have the right "darkness" but
> I'm having trouble matching the "orange" color of the original cabinets.
>
> Could the orange tone be due to aging? The original cabinets are 40 years
> old. Could I sand the original and recoat?
>
> Any thoughts or suggestions would be aprreciated
>
> TIA
>
> Ken
>
>
Thank you
Take care
--
Mike G.
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net
"Baron" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> The dye is dissolved in the lacquer, shellac, etc. Vendors formulate
> different toners to be compatible with their different lines of finishes.
> Typically, the toner burns into the previous layer just like applying a
> clear coat of shellac, lacquer, etc. If the toner is in something that is
> not an evaporative finish, like a varnish, then it must be applied within
a
> time window or the previous film must be allowed to cure and then be
> roughened so there will be a good mechanical hold. Typically, I make my
own
> toners just by adding TransTints to shellac and then either spraying or
> brushing.
> I agree you on the light versus dark wood and oil.
>
> "Mike G" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > Ok, fair enough, I stand corrected on the toner. Good information.
> >
> > I also do not have a problem with oil as a grain enhancer. I, myself,
> don't
> > like to use it on light wood , I think it yellows to much, kind of looks
> > like a dog pissed on it.. My preference is a light application of
aniline
> > dye matched as closely as possible to the woods own tone. Much as you
> > describe the toner application. On as dark wood, such as walnut, it's a
> > deferent story.
> >
> > One question though. If a dye is used as a toner what fixes it on the
non
> > pours finish undercoat?
> >
> > --
> > Mike G.
> > Heirloom Woods
> > www.heirloom-woods.net
>
>
This is just a thought and not a condemnation of glazes so don't no one get
a bent out of shape.
Glazes and toners have their place and are handy techniques to be able to
do. They are especially useful for blending heart and sap wood and handling
miss matched grain (as anyone who has ever stripped a factory produced
cherry piece can attest to). They also work well as a way to accent certain
aspects of a piece or to handle difficult to stain woods..
However, the process of sandwiching color between layers of finish also, and
there is no way around it, obscures the grain of the wood to one extent or
another. It will rob it of most of the sense of depth you can get if there
is nothing between the top of the finish and the wood.
Where, as probably true in this case (red oak) or at least should be, none
of the above is applicable an aniline dye is probably a much better choice.
Anilines, which soak into the cells of the wood rather then sitting on top
of them, work wonderfully at enhancing grain and adding to the sense of
depth.
--
Mike G.
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net
"Stewart Schooley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Ken,
>
> Read the thread "Water based glaze" that started on 7-28-03. As long as
you
> are using an oil based final finish, a glaze/toner should do the trick for
> you.
>
> One real advantage is that you can test your glaze/toner in a small area
on
> the cabinet and if it isn't good enough, wipe it off with paint thinner
and a
> rag and then adjust your color and try again.
>
> Stewart
>
> Ken Johnsen wrote:
>
> > Just completed new birch ply base cabinets for a kitchen in a rental
> > apartment. I'd like them to match the original top cabinets that are
still
> > in place.
> >
> > I've tried several shades of minwax stains with both varnish and
> > polyurethane as a protective coat. I think I have the right "darkness"
but
> > I'm having trouble matching the "orange" color of the original cabinets.
> >
> > Could the orange tone be due to aging? The original cabinets are 40
years
> > old. Could I sand the original and recoat?
> >
> > Any thoughts or suggestions would be aprreciated
> >
> > TIA
> >
> > Ken
>
More than likely, it is the finish that has ambered over the years. The
wood too, may have darkened some over time. If you strip it, you may find
the original cabinets darker than the new cabinets and you will still have
some matching to do. In the past, I have used dyes to correct for color.
You might try something like -
http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/htdocs/Japandrycolors.htm
You can add a little to the stain for the new cabinets to match the old
cabinets.
Preston
"Ken Johnsen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Just completed new birch ply base cabinets for a kitchen in a rental
> apartment. I'd like them to match the original top cabinets that are still
> in place.
>
> I've tried several shades of minwax stains with both varnish and
> polyurethane as a protective coat. I think I have the right "darkness" but
> I'm having trouble matching the "orange" color of the original cabinets.
>
> Could the orange tone be due to aging? The original cabinets are 40 years
> old. Could I sand the original and recoat?
>
> Any thoughts or suggestions would be aprreciated
>
> TIA
>
> Ken
>
>