Shellac is perma-gelatin

[email protected] wrote:

> I'm trying to use Shellac flakes for the second time and am having some
> trouble. The first time I used it they dissovled after about three days
> without much fuss, but this go-round I've got a big blob of gelatin at
> the bottom of my bottle that I can't get to dissolve. Here are the
> facts of the case:
>
> * Bought blonde dewaxed shellac from Woodcraft on Thursday
> * About an hour later, I smashed it to smithereens with a hammer and
> added it to brand new alcohol (in a well sealed plastic bottle, also
> from Woodcraft) in a 2# cut
> * I tried adding it to the alcohol slowly and letting it dissolve, but
> it just sat at the bottom and stared at me desipte repeated stirrings,
> so I dumped it all in.
> * The bottle is a very well sealed glass jar with a rubber grommet and
> a metal latch - no chance of moisture getting in that I can see.
> * I put the bottle in a bath of warm water to speed the reaction
> * Come back four days later, and there's goopy shellac gelatin on the
> bottom, maybe about a quarter of the original volume, undissolved. I've
> spent the last couple hours breaking it up, warming it, shaking it, and
> repeating, and it's still just gelatin--the undissolved portion hasn't
> changed much.
>
> Is this shellac no good? Should I return it? Did I blow it in step 3 by
> being impatient? I still have another bottle of flakes in the fride and
> I don't want to screw up another batch.
>
> Thanks,
> George
George, You have gotten a lot of feedback. The advice on the premix is a
good way to go IF you are not using the BLOND shellac as your final finish.
The premix is decidedly orange, while the blond is more of a light yellow.

It all depends on what you are using it for.

As for your problem, The problem could either have been the shellac or
alcohol. I use shellac a lot, in fact almost totally. Unlike others who
have responded, I have had shellac take up to two weeks to dissolve. Like
you, I got a gel and then slowly the gel dissolved. Use the see it shake
it method but be patient, it will very probably finally all dissolve.

Deb

Go to Home Depot and buy some Bulls Eye premixed.

I'm steering clear of premixed because all the books agree that it goes
bad in six months, and if the flakes I'm buying are possibly bad, I
can't even imagine how bad the situation is at home depot. I need help
to figure out if my current batch is salvageable and what I should do
differently with my next batch.

Well, that's certainly the easiest possible answer. I'll go to Lowes
tomorrow as their web site says they carry it (no luck at HD). Now,
what to do with the 4 pounds of flakes I have?

D'oh...looks like it's not dewaxed! This furniture is too important to
take chances with so I don't think I can live with that. Argh, why must
everything be flawed?!

I followed the directions on the bag for a 2# cut; two quarts of
alcohol for one pound of flakes.

It was a little clumpy as flakes, which worried me, but I crushed it
because that would increase the surface area. I've been keeping it in
hot water all day and it's mostly dissolved, so the situation isn't
quite as grim as I thought this morning, although I certainly won't
dare use it until testing it.

I did see on person say that heating it up makes the final finish more
brittle. But since only one person has said that, I'm choosing not to
believe it for now :)

I did find a dewaxed premix called Bullseye Sealcoat which I bought off
Rockler, so I'll give that a try - people seemed to think that one was
close to blonde, while the non-dewaxed ones appear to be more orange
(they call it "amber"). At any rate, it looks like I'll have more than
enough shellac one way or another :)

Thanks for your help,
George

You must regularly shake or stir the mixture of shellac flakes and
alcohol to get the flakes to dissolve. A temperature of 70-80° F is fine,
you do not have to warm it above this. Leaving it to sit for days will do
nothing for dissolution. All you will get is an softened blob at the bottom
of the container. Try shaking it every hour or two. Grinding up the flakes
was a good idea to increase surface area but you still must mix it
regularly. As for Zinsser's Seal-Coat, it is already a two pound cut of
dewaxed shellac. If you like the color, there is no reason not to use it.

Good Luck.


<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm trying to use Shellac flakes for the second time and am having some
> trouble. The first time I used it they dissovled after about three days
> without much fuss, but this go-round I've got a big blob of gelatin at
> the bottom of my bottle that I can't get to dissolve. Here are the
> facts of the case:
>
> * Bought blonde dewaxed shellac from Woodcraft on Thursday
> * About an hour later, I smashed it to smithereens with a hammer and
> added it to brand new alcohol (in a well sealed plastic bottle, also
> from Woodcraft) in a 2# cut
> * I tried adding it to the alcohol slowly and letting it dissolve, but
> it just sat at the bottom and stared at me desipte repeated stirrings,
> so I dumped it all in.
> * The bottle is a very well sealed glass jar with a rubber grommet and
> a metal latch - no chance of moisture getting in that I can see.
> * I put the bottle in a bath of warm water to speed the reaction
> * Come back four days later, and there's goopy shellac gelatin on the
> bottom, maybe about a quarter of the original volume, undissolved. I've
> spent the last couple hours breaking it up, warming it, shaking it, and
> repeating, and it's still just gelatin--the undissolved portion hasn't
> changed much.
>
> Is this shellac no good? Should I return it? Did I blow it in step 3 by
> being impatient? I still have another bottle of flakes in the fride and
> I don't want to screw up another batch.
>
> Thanks,
> George
>

[email protected] wrote:

> D'oh...looks like it's not dewaxed! This furniture is too important to
> take chances with so I don't think I can live with that. Argh, why must
> everything be flawed?!

To solve the wax problem, either use Seal Coat, or just de-wax it yourself.
Seal Coat is a 2# cut, and it's dewaxed out of the can. (I've heard...
Haven't used it.) The regular Bullseye stuff is a 3# cut.

If you're mixing down some 3# into a jar to make a 2# cut, say, then pour
off some of the 3#, add a suitable amount of alkie-haul, and shake it all
up. After it's mixed, let it sit a bit. Probably overnight should do it.
You'll wind up with goopy yellow stuff at the bottom of the jar, and amber
liquid on top. Pour off the amber liquid, and that's your dewaxed shellac.

Of course, having said all that, I didn't bother to decant the shellac I
used on my chess box last year. (Wow, it has been over a year since I
finished a project. :( ) It came out just fine.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm trying to use Shellac flakes for the second time and am having some
> trouble. The first time I used it they dissovled after about three days
> without much fuss, but this go-round I've got a big blob of gelatin at
> the bottom of my bottle that I can't get to dissolve. Here are the
> facts of the case:
>
> * Bought blonde dewaxed shellac from Woodcraft on Thursday
> * About an hour later, I smashed it to smithereens with a hammer and
> added it to brand new alcohol (in a well sealed plastic bottle, also
> from Woodcraft) in a 2# cut
> * I tried adding it to the alcohol slowly and letting it dissolve, but
> it just sat at the bottom and stared at me desipte repeated stirrings,
> so I dumped it all in.
> * The bottle is a very well sealed glass jar with a rubber grommet and
> a metal latch - no chance of moisture getting in that I can see.
> * I put the bottle in a bath of warm water to speed the reaction
> * Come back four days later, and there's goopy shellac gelatin on the
> bottom, maybe about a quarter of the original volume, undissolved. I've
> spent the last couple hours breaking it up, warming it, shaking it, and
> repeating, and it's still just gelatin--the undissolved portion hasn't
> changed much.
>

I mix my own in small batches, and I use the see it shake it method. I make
in the morning, shake every time I can, and it's dissolved by afternoon.

Two things you can do to hurt your chances are decrease the surface area
actually exposed to alcohol by making a bunch of small grains and allowing
the to clump to form, and attempting a two or three pound cut direct, rather
than adding flakes to a made one-pound. Try larger pieces and one-pound, to
be enriched later.

If your books all agree on that, you're reading the wrong books. Sorry, but
there's simply no rule that always holds, here or anywhere. In general,
shellac you mix, or premixed shellac, will go bad somewhere between 6 months
and about 5 years. While it varies with the specific shellac, it primarily
depends on the storage temperature. When I had a cold workshop, I mixed
shellac and easily kept it for years, and never saw any go bad. A friend in a
warmer climate (and heated workshop) got just under a year.

Further, the new Zinsser has demonstrated it will remain good for much longer
than natural shellac. They sent me a test sample when it first came out, and
it lived up to their claims. Only more recent books are aware of this.

Further, I use different shellac colors which I mix from flakes. These are
stored in sealed container, in a refrigerator, and I've used some over 15
years old.

Finally, you may just have a bad batch of shellac. I don't know what cut
you're trying to mix, or what type of alcohol, but if some stirring together
with a pot of hot water doesn't do it then something's wrong with it. (I
assume you're not trying for a 12# cut, of course.)

GerryG

On 28 Dec 2004 11:58:54 -0800, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I'm steering clear of premixed because all the books agree that it goes
>bad in six months, and if the flakes I'm buying are possibly bad, I
>can't even imagine how bad the situation is at home depot. I need help
>to figure out if my current batch is salvageable and what I should do
>differently with my next batch.

"[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> D'oh...looks like it's not dewaxed! This furniture is too important to
> take chances with so I don't think I can live with that. Argh, why must
> everything be flawed?!
>

What's not dewaxed? The Zinsser? If you want dewaxed Zinsser, buy the
SealCoat sanding sealer. You _could_ decant/dewax the other, but that's an
awful lot of hassle, IMHO.

If you got the flake at Woodcraft, what brand was it? I've gotten Hock and
Liberon from them, retail. Both worked well for me, as does/did the
Zinsser canned stuff.

If you thinned your mixed batch with more solvent, can you get more of the
gel to disolve?

Patriarch

On 28 Dec 2004 11:58:54 -0800, [email protected] <[email protected]>
wrote:
> I'm steering clear of premixed because all the books agree that it goes
> bad in six months, and if the flakes I'm buying are possibly bad, I
> can't even imagine how bad the situation is at home depot. I need help
> to figure out if my current batch is salvageable and what I should do
> differently with my next batch.
>

Bullseye has a "born on" date, and promises a 3-year shelf life.

I've never tried to push it, but it's cheap enough.

Flakes can go bad, but mixed shellac WILL go bad. My understanding is
that bad flakes are the result of too warm or damp a storage situation,
but I've never had bad flakes.

On 28 Dec 2004 11:16:18 -0800, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>* About an hour later, I smashed it to smithereens with a hammer and
>added it to brand new alcohol (in a well sealed plastic bottle, also
>from Woodcraft) in a 2# cut

Howdy,

I am confused by the very last phrase above ("in a 2# cut.")

How much shellac (by weight) do you have in how much alcohol
(by volume)?

I suspect that you may just have more shellac than you can
get into solution.

You may already be aware that 2# cut would mean two pounds
of shellac in a gallon of alcohol.

Is that the ratio you actually have?

HTH,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Why did you have to smash it with a hammer? Wasn't it flakes to begin
with? If it was clumped up, there may have been something wrong with
it (moisture?) to begin with.

Unheated, shellac does take a long time to dissolve, IME. Sometimes a
couple days to become completely dissolved, with some intermediate
shaking and stirring. But if it's still a gloppy mess after four
days, that's not normal. Try heating it in a pan of hot -- not just
warm but almost boiling -- water for an hour or two. I find that's
the best way to dissolve it.

(As I'm sure you now, alcohol fumes and an open flame are a bad
combination, so you want to do the heating with a hotplate or on an
electric range, or boil the water and turn off the gas before putting
the shellac in the pan.)

On 28 Dec 2004 11:16:18 -0800, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>I'm trying to use Shellac flakes for the second time and am having some
>trouble. The first time I used it they dissovled after about three days
>without much fuss, but this go-round I've got a big blob of gelatin at
>the bottom of my bottle that I can't get to dissolve. Here are the
>facts of the case:
>
>* Bought blonde dewaxed shellac from Woodcraft on Thursday
>* About an hour later, I smashed it to smithereens with a hammer and
>added it to brand new alcohol (in a well sealed plastic bottle, also
>from Woodcraft) in a 2# cut
>* I tried adding it to the alcohol slowly and letting it dissolve, but
>it just sat at the bottom and stared at me desipte repeated stirrings,
>so I dumped it all in.
>* The bottle is a very well sealed glass jar with a rubber grommet and
>a metal latch - no chance of moisture getting in that I can see.
>* I put the bottle in a bath of warm water to speed the reaction
>* Come back four days later, and there's goopy shellac gelatin on the
>bottom, maybe about a quarter of the original volume, undissolved. I've
>spent the last couple hours breaking it up, warming it, shaking it, and
>repeating, and it's still just gelatin--the undissolved portion hasn't
>changed much.
>
>Is this shellac no good? Should I return it? Did I blow it in step 3 by
>being impatient? I still have another bottle of flakes in the fride and
>I don't want to screw up another batch.
>
>Thanks,
>George

-- jc
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If e-mailing me, please use jc631 at optonline dot net