Greetings all. Been years since my last post; glad to see the "wreck"
is still so active.
The interior of our boat has teak paneling with satin (tending toward
matte) polyurethane finish. When we took a big roll a few months ago a
laptop flew off the table and hit the bulkhead (wall), putting a good-
size (1/2" x 1/2") ding in it. The ding has that cracked whitish
plastic look to it.
I'd appreciate any advice the group members may have as to how I can
repair (or at least reduce the visual signature of) this damage.
Pictures available if necessary.
Thanks!
/afb
On Mar 21, 1:52=A0am, adam b <[email protected]> wrote:
SNIP
> Do I have that right?
>
> As for the lacquer, is there a specific type/brand that we should be
> using? We are in now Australia so U.S. brands may not be available.
> You are correct that the original poly finish is probably clear or
> close to it, but I can't be sure that there wasn't some "warming" in
> it. That said, I do have the ability to test on a hidden area to
> determine how closely the lacquer matches the poly.
>
> Thanks again!
Glad to be of some help. As noted, I think no matter what you do this
will be seen. Probably not by others without close study, but it
won't disappear.
Try your finish in an unnoticeable place. If it is too light,
remember that the finish you apply will amber over time as well. So
if you tint now, it may be too dark later. If it was a pretty close
match now, I would go with it.
I don't know what kinds of lacquer you have down there, but here in
the USA I would find a can of DEFT. It is always consistent quality,
lasts well, and I haves used it for years. It is a brushing lacquer,
so it will be thicker than some products, but thins well and easily.
Stay away from any conversion products that are the super hard
lacquers or spray type lacquers. These are high performance products
that are meant to be sprayed and they dry very quickly.
Stick with any high quality brushing lacquer and you should be OK.
Come back, start another thread and let us know how your work turned
out!
Robert
On Mar 20, 8:59 pm, Michael Joel <[email protected]> wrote:
> I don't deal a lot with poly.
This is obvious. Not to be an ass about this, but you shouldn't
speculate on such a serious subject. It's the man's boat! He is
asking for solutions, not wild ideas that do not work or parroting of
folklore.
> Poly is not easy to truly fix. I am almost certain there are special
> kits out there for working with poly and vinyl (from what I have seen
> these are very expensive kits).
Nope. You can top coat, add more finish of the same type, over coat
an area, and all kinds of other things. But there is no magic kit.
> The following is my *opinion* what I would do - or try
Glad you specified "opinion" as your qualifier.
> Use shellac (a.k.a french polish/french lacquer).
Shellac on a water going vessel? Shellac for a vessel that (just a
guess here with the big roll comment) may be exposed to salt water?
Even if it wasn't a salt air environment, shellac is a lousy choice
for exterior use.
You should know that "french polish" is a technique, not a finish. At
least in my mind, I don't recall shellac ever being called lacquer.
You can "french polish" shellac, lacquer, and even paint as well.
However, applying a french polishing technique to lacquer certainly
does not turn it into shellac. It is still shellac, not lacquer. The
<<technique>> of french polishing is applied to a top coat material
and has been for centuries.
> I would try steaming the dent first - that is put enough water on the
> dent until the wood is wet then touch it with a soldering pen or gun.
First of all, your steaming efforts will soften the remaining finish
and in some case cause the finish to come off the surface. Second, if
it like 99% of the poly finishes out there, it is heat sensitive.
When I have refinished small areas that I strip first, I use a heat
gun and the poly will peel off. Why start that process? Steam heat
from a soldering pen or gun to raise a 1/2" x 5/8" dent? You could
never generate enough heat with one of those over a large enough
surface to raise the dent. Note too, that no DENT was mentioned. If
this was a glancing blow, then the dent left will be too small to
worry about fixing.
> Clean the old poly off the damage area.
No. Absolutely no cleaning. Check out he picture later in this
thread. First, regardless of the picture, you don't clean off the old
sealant. Cut it off. And by looking at the picture, you can see why
you cut away damage on poly, not clean it. Regardless of what you see
in the ensuing picture from Adam, you don't just clean off the broken
finish. There is already and adherence problem when the finish spalls
like that. It shouldn't lift around the perimeter of the damaged
area. A dent will discolor and crack the finish, and maybe chip it.
But with a properly applied finish a dent won't cause it to lift off
the wood. This also goes back to the steam, soldering irons and heat
when repairing poly. You would lift this finish off the wood quite
easily since the adhesion of the top coat isn't that great.
Regardless of what you see in the picture, this is not case specific.
If you apply heat and steam to polyurethane product you can cause the
finish to fail with little or not effort. You will wind up with more
problems than you started with in the beginning.
> If you can't raise the dent then you need to fill it - maybe use a
> crystal clear epoxy. (I don't like the idea of coloring the epoxy
> because this can easily lead to a bigger headache)
No, again. Epoxy can easily dry to such a hardness that top coats of
finish may not adhere well, and will not give off the same reflective
light as the other surfaces. Also, when used as filler, epoxy will
almost certainly amber much darker over time than the surrounding
finishes. Additionally, since you cannot sand the edge of epoxy
filler flat to blend it into the surrounding finish areas, you will
have instant witness lines. You could under fill the dent, but then
if you have used a much epoxy as I have over the years you will know
that the surface of the epoxy will be thin thin on the top, and thick
on the bottom. Remember, this is on a WALL. A vertical surface, so
you have gravity as a factor. Depending on the type and brand of
epoxy you use, it may also shrink as it cures over a period of time,
making your repair very evident.
> Then use a shellac with a stain to match (follow directions on the
> french polish or french lacquer - or get a book that talks about doing
> french polishing).
??? You can buy clear shellac... shellac isn't appropriate here, but
why would you want to stain the finish? You won't ever get good
results with a stain in finish as you can't control the amount of
color or its density over a series of coats. Stain the wood, then
after you have achieved the perfect color, seal it up. He may or may
not need stain to match. He never said it was stained, it might be,
but most teak is finished clear. And why would you french polish
(which is gloss) to mimic a near matte top coat?
> If the damage is such that the grain is not visible through the patch
> then use some pigment stain (mixed with shellac) to draw in these fake
> grains.
> After it dries give a few more coats of shellac.
>
> Rub down with 0000 steal wool when dry to produce a matte.
A few coats of shellac? How high will you build that dent up? Think
of this; look at the surface around an overfilled nail hole of dent.
See how the edges resist being sanded flush and you have a ring around
the patch material that you can see is untouched? That is what you
have if you over fill and try to sand or remove enough material around
it to get it flush. That means you will undoubtedly be cutting into
the surrounding surface when you sand, causing more damage.
Remember, you will have to get the final repair about flush to the
surrounding surfaces. And why would you want to draw in grain lines
when using a clear finish that is matching a clear finish? What would
be the point of that?
Honestly, I don't know where all that came from. No idea.
Since I do this from time to time for a living, here is what I would
do. As with MJ's post, feel free to take this with a grain of salt if
you wish. Regardless of how you repair this problem, you will still
see it with close inspection.
Check the finish and see if it old enough to chip and break as opposed
to still being a bit elastic. If it breaks easily, take the tip of an
exacto style knife and break off as little as possible to get the
loose pieces off. If it still a bit soft, lift the edge with
something and cut the poly (carefully) at the point of adherence.
Carefully inspect the surface under a magnifying glass to see of there
are any loose edges. This is important, when you apply a top coat, if
the edge is loose and traps air under it you will see it as an obvious
line under the finish.
Cut down a popsicle stick, tongue depressor, or what ever you can find
that is small and flexible, and cut one end to about 1/8" inch in
width. Wrap some 180 or 220 around the 1/8" point sand the edges a
tiny bit to round it where you cut or broke off the finish. Sand as
little as possible, your motion with the grain, towards the inside of
the patch only, not back and forth. You are only trying to break up
the sharp edge of the remaining finish.
Since this is a vertical surface, my choice of repair material would
be lacquer.
It is perfect for this application as it dries very quickly allowing
you to make multiple coats quickly, and each subsequent coat will
completely blend (resolvate) into the previous coat. Thin it quite a
bit, and apply with an artist's brush, pushing the lacquer into the
edges before smoothing. Make sure you don't leave any new finish on
the old finish. After the first coat, apply the lacquer within the
perimeter of the patch, and don't go over the edges. Apply as many
coats as you need to get the repair area flush or just slightly below
flush with the other surface. Don't overfill it! if you do you will
have to find a way to sand it off, and when you do you will see it.
It is actually better to be a tiny bit under filled rather than over
filled. If you over fill you won't be able to sand your excess
material off/even without cutting into the existing coated surface.
Remember, most of the time a good finish repair is simply about
fooling the eye, nothing else. So if you under fill the surface just
a tiny, tiny bit, you can easily match reflectivity of the patch
surface of the filled area by putting a flattening device such as
scotch brite pads or even a bit of well worn fine grit sandpaper to
work, using a very light touch. Move your flattener in the direction
of the grain ONLY to mimic the striations of the grain.
I wouldn't use steel wool as it has oil on it to keep it from
rusting. If you decide that you should have put one more coat of
lacquer on your patch before you call it good, you will now have to
clean the oil off the patch area before finishing instead of just
putting a bit more on top of the old finish.
No steaming or soldering irons, no shellac, no french polishing (still
don't know where that came from...) and no steel wool.
And wow.... later added by MJ
" I imagine you can treat the witness lines the same as graining.
Color them out."
>> I imagine << that you do not have one iota of knowledge on this subject. Not a remote clue, no idea, and probably haven't seen the ball since the kickoff.
Robert
"adam b" wrote:
> Robert, thanks for your detailed suggestions. I'd like to try and
> echo
> them back in summary to ensure that I understand the overall
> process:
-------------------------------------
With deference to Robert's excellent repair approach, time for a
bulkhead mounted, teak "Doo-Dad" to cover the damaged surface.
"Doo-Dad" would cover almost any thing you want to build.
If you still use paper charts, a holder for your dividers, pencils
and/or straight edges.
A mounting pad for a gimbaled kerosene sailing lamp.
A holder for your binoculars.
A holder for your favorite bottle of single malt.
The list is almost endless.
BTDT, don't need the T-Shirt.
BTW, Epifanes is the poly of choice in almost every boat yard world
wide.
Have fun.
Lew
"adam b" wrote:
> Thanks, Lew. Unfortunately the location of the ding (top of the
stairs, 18" above the pilothouse sole) makes it the last place that
any possible "do-dad" would make sense. :(
---------------------------
Sounds like a perfect place for an engraved brass nameplate either
describing the event covered by nameplate such as "Adam's puter
landing place" or a ship's nameplate providing year built, builder's
name, displacement, owner's name, etc.
Lew
adam b wrote:
> Greetings all. Been years since my last post; glad to see the "wreck"
> is still so active.
>
> The interior of our boat has teak paneling with satin (tending toward
> matte) polyurethane finish. When we took a big roll a few months ago a
> laptop flew off the table and hit the bulkhead (wall), putting a good-
> size (1/2" x 1/2") ding in it. The ding has that cracked whitish
> plastic look to it.
>
> I'd appreciate any advice the group members may have as to how I can
> repair (or at least reduce the visual signature of) this damage.
> Pictures available if necessary.
>
> Thanks!
>
> /afb
I don't deal a lot with poly.
Poly is not easy to truly fix. I am almost certain there are special
kits out there for working with poly and vinyl (from what I have seen
these are very expensive kits).
The following is my *opinion* what I would do - or try
Use shellac (a.k.a french polish/french lacquer).
I would try steaming the dent first - that is put enough water on the
dent until the wood is wet then touch it with a soldering pen or gun.
Clean the old poly off the damage area.
If you can't raise the dent then you need to fill it - maybe use a
crystal clear epoxy. (I don't like the idea of coloring the epoxy
because this can easily lead to a bigger headache)
Then use a shellac with a stain to match (follow directions on the
french polish or french lacquer - or get a book that talks about doing
french polishing).
If the damage is such that the grain is not visible through the patch
then use some pigment stain (mixed with shellac) to draw in these fake
grains.
After it dries give a few more coats of shellac.
Rub down with 0000 steal wool when dry to produce a matte.
-- -- -- -- -- -- --
Michael Joel
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes,
His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen,
being understood through what has been made,
so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God,
they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became
futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
- Romans 1:20-21 (NASB)
parksfamily2 ------ ---- --- gmail ----- ----- com
replace dashes with correct symbols
[email protected]
Wanted to apologize for getting upset with your comments. I let it get
me angry - no reason I should have.
--
Michael Joel
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes,
His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen,
being understood through what has been made,
so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God,
they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became
futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
- Romans 1:20-21 (NASB)
parksfamily2 ------ ---- --- gmail ----- ----- com
replace dashes with correct symbols
Had to comment on a few points
[email protected] wrote:
> Shellac on a water going vessel? Shellac for a vessel that (just a
> guess here with the big roll comment) may be exposed to salt water?
> Even if it wasn't a salt air environment, shellac is a lousy choice
> for exterior use.
You think lacquer has a large advantage over shellac (esp. dewaxed
shellac) when it comes to moisture?
>
> You should know that "french polish" is a technique, not a finish. At
> least in my mind, I don't recall shellac ever being called lacquer.
> You can "french polish" shellac, lacquer, and even paint as well.
> However, applying a french polishing technique to lacquer certainly
> does not turn it into shellac. It is still shellac, not lacquer. The
> <<technique>> of french polishing is applied to a top coat material
> and has been for centuries.
>
You have never heard of shellac referred to as a lacquer? It is indeed
done.
French polish is a technique - it is used with SHELLAC. French Lacquer -
is in fact - another shellac based product. All use a form of french polish.
French polish is used commonly for repair work.
OP:
Again - get a book and see who is right - that is all it takes (not the
internet, which is almost useless). In fact getting a finish and finish
repair book would be a much better place to start than a newsgroup. Look
up the author Bob Flexnor (I think I spelled it right). Very good books.
On Mar 22, 1:44=A0pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
> -------------------------------------
> With deference to Robert's excellent repair approach, time for a
> bulkhead mounted, teak "Doo-Dad" to cover the damaged surface.
Thanks, Lew. Unfortunately the location of the ding (top of the
stairs, 18" above the pilothouse sole) makes it the last place that
any possible "do-dad" would make sense. :(
/afb
Robert, thanks for your detailed suggestions. I'd like to try and echo
them back in summary to ensure that I understand the overall process:
Step 1: Using the tip of an x-acto, pick or peel the damaged finish
away from the surface. If the finish at the edges is still soft,
separate the good from the damaged finish by cutting it. Be sure to
remove enough material to ensure that the edge of the undamaged poly
has full adhesion to the teak.
Step 2: Gently sand the edge of the cut or broken finish.
Step 3: Apply lacquer over the bare wood, starting at the edges of the
damaged area and pushing out to ensure a butt match of finishes
without overfinishing the poly with lacquer. Build up the divot using
thin layers.
Do I have that right?
As for the lacquer, is there a specific type/brand that we should be
using? We are in now Australia so U.S. brands may not be available.
You are correct that the original poly finish is probably clear or
close to it, but I can't be sure that there wasn't some "warming" in
it. That said, I do have the ability to test on a hidden area to
determine how closely the lacquer matches the poly.
Thanks again!
/afb
"adam b" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On Mar 22, 1:44 pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
> -------------------------------------
> With deference to Robert's excellent repair approach, time for a
> bulkhead mounted, teak "Doo-Dad" to cover the damaged surface.
Thanks, Lew. Unfortunately the location of the ding (top of the
stairs, 18" above the pilothouse sole) makes it the last place that
any possible "do-dad" would make sense. :(
/afb
***********************
How about a small downward shining night vision retaining light? Illuminate
the stairs slightly and cover the ding.
This cover idea has definite merit. The repair will always still be
visible, in my opinion.
-- Jim in NC
On Tue, 20 Mar 2012 17:30:33 -0700 (PDT), adam b
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Greetings all. Been years since my last post; glad to see the "wreck"
>is still so active.
>
>The interior of our boat has teak paneling with satin (tending toward
>matte) polyurethane finish. When we took a big roll a few months ago a
>laptop flew off the table and hit the bulkhead (wall), putting a good-
>size (1/2" x 1/2") ding in it. The ding has that cracked whitish
>plastic look to it.
>
>I'd appreciate any advice the group members may have as to how I can
>repair (or at least reduce the visual signature of) this damage.
>Pictures available if necessary.
This is the perfect opportunity to add a cup holder, Adam!
Or spackle and a Grateful Dead sticker.
Sorry, I don't do polyurinestain repair so I can't help with a
finishing tip, other than to avoid poly. Witness lines on poly are
simply horrible.
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-273141.html
--
Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens.
-- Jimi Hendrix
On Tue, 20 Mar 2012 17:30:33 -0700 (PDT), adam b
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Greetings all. Been years since my last post; glad to see the "wreck"
>is still so active.
>
>The interior of our boat has teak paneling with satin (tending toward
>matte) polyurethane finish. When we took a big roll a few months ago a
>laptop flew off the table and hit the bulkhead (wall), putting a good-
>size (1/2" x 1/2") ding in it. The ding has that cracked whitish
>plastic look to it.
>
>I'd appreciate any advice the group members may have as to how I can
>repair (or at least reduce the visual signature of) this damage.
>Pictures available if necessary.
>
>Thanks!
>
>/afb
I had a similar problem with a newly finished bathroom vanity that I
chipped an area with a tool during the installation of the vanity.
I discovered that using the end of a toothpick as an applicator I
could fill the chip with a couple applications. The cracking around
the edges immediately sucked up the new Poly and they completely
disappeared! Adding another coat of poly in the chip to overfill it
provided the base to sand with 800 grit to feather the edges into the
surrounding area. A final buffing and repair is invisible.
No chipping of old poly was required. Good luck.
[email protected] wrote:
> On Mar 20, 8:59 pm, Michael Joel <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>I don't deal a lot with poly.
>
>
> This is obvious. Not to be an ass about this, but you shouldn't
> speculate on such a serious subject. It's the man's boat! He is
> asking for solutions, not wild ideas that do not work or parroting of
> folklore.
>
>
>>Poly is not easy to truly fix. I am almost certain there are special
>>kits out there for working with poly and vinyl (from what I have seen
>>these are very expensive kits).
>
>
> Nope. You can top coat, add more finish of the same type, over coat
> an area, and all kinds of other things. But there is no magic kit.
>
>
>>The following is my *opinion* what I would do - or try
>
>
> Glad you specified "opinion" as your qualifier.
>
>
>>Use shellac (a.k.a french polish/french lacquer).
>
>
> Shellac on a water going vessel? Shellac for a vessel that (just a
> guess here with the big roll comment) may be exposed to salt water?
> Even if it wasn't a salt air environment, shellac is a lousy choice
> for exterior use.
>
> You should know that "french polish" is a technique, not a finish. At
> least in my mind, I don't recall shellac ever being called lacquer.
> You can "french polish" shellac, lacquer, and even paint as well.
> However, applying a french polishing technique to lacquer certainly
> does not turn it into shellac. It is still shellac, not lacquer. The
> <<technique>> of french polishing is applied to a top coat material
> and has been for centuries.
>
>
>>I would try steaming the dent first - that is put enough water on the
>>dent until the wood is wet then touch it with a soldering pen or gun.
>
>
> First of all, your steaming efforts will soften the remaining finish
> and in some case cause the finish to come off the surface. Second, if
> it like 99% of the poly finishes out there, it is heat sensitive.
> When I have refinished small areas that I strip first, I use a heat
> gun and the poly will peel off. Why start that process? Steam heat
> from a soldering pen or gun to raise a 1/2" x 5/8" dent? You could
> never generate enough heat with one of those over a large enough
> surface to raise the dent. Note too, that no DENT was mentioned. If
> this was a glancing blow, then the dent left will be too small to
> worry about fixing.
>
>
>>Clean the old poly off the damage area.
>
>
> No. Absolutely no cleaning. Check out he picture later in this
> thread. First, regardless of the picture, you don't clean off the old
> sealant. Cut it off. And by looking at the picture, you can see why
> you cut away damage on poly, not clean it. Regardless of what you see
> in the ensuing picture from Adam, you don't just clean off the broken
> finish. There is already and adherence problem when the finish spalls
> like that. It shouldn't lift around the perimeter of the damaged
> area. A dent will discolor and crack the finish, and maybe chip it.
> But with a properly applied finish a dent won't cause it to lift off
> the wood. This also goes back to the steam, soldering irons and heat
> when repairing poly. You would lift this finish off the wood quite
> easily since the adhesion of the top coat isn't that great.
> Regardless of what you see in the picture, this is not case specific.
> If you apply heat and steam to polyurethane product you can cause the
> finish to fail with little or not effort. You will wind up with more
> problems than you started with in the beginning.
>
>
>>If you can't raise the dent then you need to fill it - maybe use a
>>crystal clear epoxy. (I don't like the idea of coloring the epoxy
>>because this can easily lead to a bigger headache)
>
>
> No, again. Epoxy can easily dry to such a hardness that top coats of
> finish may not adhere well, and will not give off the same reflective
> light as the other surfaces. Also, when used as filler, epoxy will
> almost certainly amber much darker over time than the surrounding
> finishes. Additionally, since you cannot sand the edge of epoxy
> filler flat to blend it into the surrounding finish areas, you will
> have instant witness lines. You could under fill the dent, but then
> if you have used a much epoxy as I have over the years you will know
> that the surface of the epoxy will be thin thin on the top, and thick
> on the bottom. Remember, this is on a WALL. A vertical surface, so
> you have gravity as a factor. Depending on the type and brand of
> epoxy you use, it may also shrink as it cures over a period of time,
> making your repair very evident.
>
>
>>Then use a shellac with a stain to match (follow directions on the
>>french polish or french lacquer - or get a book that talks about doing
>>french polishing).
>
>
> ??? You can buy clear shellac... shellac isn't appropriate here, but
> why would you want to stain the finish? You won't ever get good
> results with a stain in finish as you can't control the amount of
> color or its density over a series of coats. Stain the wood, then
> after you have achieved the perfect color, seal it up. He may or may
> not need stain to match. He never said it was stained, it might be,
> but most teak is finished clear. And why would you french polish
> (which is gloss) to mimic a near matte top coat?
>
>
>>If the damage is such that the grain is not visible through the patch
>>then use some pigment stain (mixed with shellac) to draw in these fake
>>grains.
>>After it dries give a few more coats of shellac.
>>
>>Rub down with 0000 steal wool when dry to produce a matte.
>
>
> A few coats of shellac? How high will you build that dent up? Think
> of this; look at the surface around an overfilled nail hole of dent.
> See how the edges resist being sanded flush and you have a ring around
> the patch material that you can see is untouched? That is what you
> have if you over fill and try to sand or remove enough material around
> it to get it flush. That means you will undoubtedly be cutting into
> the surrounding surface when you sand, causing more damage.
>
> Remember, you will have to get the final repair about flush to the
> surrounding surfaces. And why would you want to draw in grain lines
> when using a clear finish that is matching a clear finish? What would
> be the point of that?
>
> Honestly, I don't know where all that came from. No idea.
>
> Since I do this from time to time for a living, here is what I would
> do. As with MJ's post, feel free to take this with a grain of salt if
> you wish. Regardless of how you repair this problem, you will still
> see it with close inspection.
>
> Check the finish and see if it old enough to chip and break as opposed
> to still being a bit elastic. If it breaks easily, take the tip of an
> exacto style knife and break off as little as possible to get the
> loose pieces off. If it still a bit soft, lift the edge with
> something and cut the poly (carefully) at the point of adherence.
> Carefully inspect the surface under a magnifying glass to see of there
> are any loose edges. This is important, when you apply a top coat, if
> the edge is loose and traps air under it you will see it as an obvious
> line under the finish.
>
> Cut down a popsicle stick, tongue depressor, or what ever you can find
> that is small and flexible, and cut one end to about 1/8" inch in
> width. Wrap some 180 or 220 around the 1/8" point sand the edges a
> tiny bit to round it where you cut or broke off the finish. Sand as
> little as possible, your motion with the grain, towards the inside of
> the patch only, not back and forth. You are only trying to break up
> the sharp edge of the remaining finish.
>
> Since this is a vertical surface, my choice of repair material would
> be lacquer.
> It is perfect for this application as it dries very quickly allowing
> you to make multiple coats quickly, and each subsequent coat will
> completely blend (resolvate) into the previous coat. Thin it quite a
> bit, and apply with an artist's brush, pushing the lacquer into the
> edges before smoothing. Make sure you don't leave any new finish on
> the old finish. After the first coat, apply the lacquer within the
> perimeter of the patch, and don't go over the edges. Apply as many
> coats as you need to get the repair area flush or just slightly below
> flush with the other surface. Don't overfill it! if you do you will
> have to find a way to sand it off, and when you do you will see it.
> It is actually better to be a tiny bit under filled rather than over
> filled. If you over fill you won't be able to sand your excess
> material off/even without cutting into the existing coated surface.
>
> Remember, most of the time a good finish repair is simply about
> fooling the eye, nothing else. So if you under fill the surface just
> a tiny, tiny bit, you can easily match reflectivity of the patch
> surface of the filled area by putting a flattening device such as
> scotch brite pads or even a bit of well worn fine grit sandpaper to
> work, using a very light touch. Move your flattener in the direction
> of the grain ONLY to mimic the striations of the grain.
>
> I wouldn't use steel wool as it has oil on it to keep it from
> rusting. If you decide that you should have put one more coat of
> lacquer on your patch before you call it good, you will now have to
> clean the oil off the patch area before finishing instead of just
> putting a bit more on top of the old finish.
>
> No steaming or soldering irons, no shellac, no french polishing (still
> don't know where that came from...) and no steel wool.
>
> And wow.... later added by MJ
>
> " I imagine you can treat the witness lines the same as graining.
> Color them out."
>
>
>>>I imagine << that you do not have one iota of knowledge on this subject. Not a remote clue, no idea, and probably haven't seen the ball since the kickoff.
>
>
> Robert
>
Sir -
You obviously have some problems.
The outline I gave was a *common* method for basic touch-up.
Use his method.
We will see who doesn't know what they are talking about.
Again - Get a book on basic finishing and touch up and see which one it
agrees with.
--
Michael Joel
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes,
His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen,
being understood through what has been made,
so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God,
they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became
futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
- Romans 1:20-21 (NASB)
parksfamily2 ------ ---- --- gmail ----- ----- com
replace dashes with correct symbols
Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Mar 2012 17:30:33 -0700 (PDT), adam b
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Greetings all. Been years since my last post; glad to see the "wreck"
>>is still so active.
>>
>>The interior of our boat has teak paneling with satin (tending toward
>>matte) polyurethane finish. When we took a big roll a few months ago a
>>laptop flew off the table and hit the bulkhead (wall), putting a good-
>>size (1/2" x 1/2") ding in it. The ding has that cracked whitish
>>plastic look to it.
>>
>>I'd appreciate any advice the group members may have as to how I can
>>repair (or at least reduce the visual signature of) this damage.
>>Pictures available if necessary.
>
>
> This is the perfect opportunity to add a cup holder, Adam!
> Or spackle and a Grateful Dead sticker.
>
> Sorry, I don't do polyurinestain repair so I can't help with a
> finishing tip, other than to avoid poly. Witness lines on poly are
> simply horrible.
> http://www.tdpri.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-273141.html
>
> --
> Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens.
> -- Jimi Hendrix
I imagine you can treat the witness lines the same as graining. Color
them out.
Mike
--
Michael Joel
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes,
His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen,
being understood through what has been made,
so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God,
they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became
futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
- Romans 1:20-21 (NASB)
parksfamily2 ------ ---- --- gmail ----- ----- com
replace dashes with correct symbols
On 3/21/2012 8:48 AM, Michael Joel wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>> On Mar 20, 8:59 pm, Michael Joel <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I don't deal a lot with poly.
>>
>>
>> This is obvious. Not to be an ass about this, but you shouldn't
>> speculate on such a serious subject. It's the man's boat! He is
>> asking for solutions, not wild ideas that do not work or parroting of
>> folklore.
>>
>>
>>> Poly is not easy to truly fix. I am almost certain there are special
>>> kits out there for working with poly and vinyl (from what I have seen
>>> these are very expensive kits).
>>
>>
>> Nope. You can top coat, add more finish of the same type, over coat
>> an area, and all kinds of other things. But there is no magic kit.
>>
>>
>>> The following is my *opinion* what I would do - or try
>>
>>
>> Glad you specified "opinion" as your qualifier.
>>
>>
>>> Use shellac (a.k.a french polish/french lacquer).
>>
>>
>> Shellac on a water going vessel? Shellac for a vessel that (just a
>> guess here with the big roll comment) may be exposed to salt water?
>> Even if it wasn't a salt air environment, shellac is a lousy choice
>> for exterior use.
>>
>> You should know that "french polish" is a technique, not a finish. At
>> least in my mind, I don't recall shellac ever being called lacquer.
>> You can "french polish" shellac, lacquer, and even paint as well.
>> However, applying a french polishing technique to lacquer certainly
>> does not turn it into shellac. It is still shellac, not lacquer. The
>> <<technique>> of french polishing is applied to a top coat material
>> and has been for centuries.
>>
>>
>>> I would try steaming the dent first - that is put enough water on the
>>> dent until the wood is wet then touch it with a soldering pen or gun.
>>
>>
>> First of all, your steaming efforts will soften the remaining finish
>> and in some case cause the finish to come off the surface. Second, if
>> it like 99% of the poly finishes out there, it is heat sensitive.
>> When I have refinished small areas that I strip first, I use a heat
>> gun and the poly will peel off. Why start that process? Steam heat
>> from a soldering pen or gun to raise a 1/2" x 5/8" dent? You could
>> never generate enough heat with one of those over a large enough
>> surface to raise the dent. Note too, that no DENT was mentioned. If
>> this was a glancing blow, then the dent left will be too small to
>> worry about fixing.
>>
>>
>>> Clean the old poly off the damage area.
>>
>>
>> No. Absolutely no cleaning. Check out he picture later in this
>> thread. First, regardless of the picture, you don't clean off the old
>> sealant. Cut it off. And by looking at the picture, you can see why
>> you cut away damage on poly, not clean it. Regardless of what you see
>> in the ensuing picture from Adam, you don't just clean off the broken
>> finish. There is already and adherence problem when the finish spalls
>> like that. It shouldn't lift around the perimeter of the damaged
>> area. A dent will discolor and crack the finish, and maybe chip it.
>> But with a properly applied finish a dent won't cause it to lift off
>> the wood. This also goes back to the steam, soldering irons and heat
>> when repairing poly. You would lift this finish off the wood quite
>> easily since the adhesion of the top coat isn't that great.
>> Regardless of what you see in the picture, this is not case specific.
>> If you apply heat and steam to polyurethane product you can cause the
>> finish to fail with little or not effort. You will wind up with more
>> problems than you started with in the beginning.
>>
>>
>>> If you can't raise the dent then you need to fill it - maybe use a
>>> crystal clear epoxy. (I don't like the idea of coloring the epoxy
>>> because this can easily lead to a bigger headache)
>>
>>
>> No, again. Epoxy can easily dry to such a hardness that top coats of
>> finish may not adhere well, and will not give off the same reflective
>> light as the other surfaces. Also, when used as filler, epoxy will
>> almost certainly amber much darker over time than the surrounding
>> finishes. Additionally, since you cannot sand the edge of epoxy
>> filler flat to blend it into the surrounding finish areas, you will
>> have instant witness lines. You could under fill the dent, but then
>> if you have used a much epoxy as I have over the years you will know
>> that the surface of the epoxy will be thin thin on the top, and thick
>> on the bottom. Remember, this is on a WALL. A vertical surface, so
>> you have gravity as a factor. Depending on the type and brand of
>> epoxy you use, it may also shrink as it cures over a period of time,
>> making your repair very evident.
>>
>>
>>> Then use a shellac with a stain to match (follow directions on the
>>> french polish or french lacquer - or get a book that talks about doing
>>> french polishing).
>>
>>
>> ??? You can buy clear shellac... shellac isn't appropriate here, but
>> why would you want to stain the finish? You won't ever get good
>> results with a stain in finish as you can't control the amount of
>> color or its density over a series of coats. Stain the wood, then
>> after you have achieved the perfect color, seal it up. He may or may
>> not need stain to match. He never said it was stained, it might be,
>> but most teak is finished clear. And why would you french polish
>> (which is gloss) to mimic a near matte top coat?
>>
>>
>>> If the damage is such that the grain is not visible through the patch
>>> then use some pigment stain (mixed with shellac) to draw in these fake
>>> grains.
>>> After it dries give a few more coats of shellac.
>>>
>>> Rub down with 0000 steal wool when dry to produce a matte.
>>
>>
>> A few coats of shellac? How high will you build that dent up? Think
>> of this; look at the surface around an overfilled nail hole of dent.
>> See how the edges resist being sanded flush and you have a ring around
>> the patch material that you can see is untouched? That is what you
>> have if you over fill and try to sand or remove enough material around
>> it to get it flush. That means you will undoubtedly be cutting into
>> the surrounding surface when you sand, causing more damage.
>>
>> Remember, you will have to get the final repair about flush to the
>> surrounding surfaces. And why would you want to draw in grain lines
>> when using a clear finish that is matching a clear finish? What would
>> be the point of that?
>>
>> Honestly, I don't know where all that came from. No idea.
>>
>> Since I do this from time to time for a living, here is what I would
>> do. As with MJ's post, feel free to take this with a grain of salt if
>> you wish. Regardless of how you repair this problem, you will still
>> see it with close inspection.
>>
>> Check the finish and see if it old enough to chip and break as opposed
>> to still being a bit elastic. If it breaks easily, take the tip of an
>> exacto style knife and break off as little as possible to get the
>> loose pieces off. If it still a bit soft, lift the edge with
>> something and cut the poly (carefully) at the point of adherence.
>> Carefully inspect the surface under a magnifying glass to see of there
>> are any loose edges. This is important, when you apply a top coat, if
>> the edge is loose and traps air under it you will see it as an obvious
>> line under the finish.
>>
>> Cut down a popsicle stick, tongue depressor, or what ever you can find
>> that is small and flexible, and cut one end to about 1/8" inch in
>> width. Wrap some 180 or 220 around the 1/8" point sand the edges a
>> tiny bit to round it where you cut or broke off the finish. Sand as
>> little as possible, your motion with the grain, towards the inside of
>> the patch only, not back and forth. You are only trying to break up
>> the sharp edge of the remaining finish.
>>
>> Since this is a vertical surface, my choice of repair material would
>> be lacquer.
>> It is perfect for this application as it dries very quickly allowing
>> you to make multiple coats quickly, and each subsequent coat will
>> completely blend (resolvate) into the previous coat. Thin it quite a
>> bit, and apply with an artist's brush, pushing the lacquer into the
>> edges before smoothing. Make sure you don't leave any new finish on
>> the old finish. After the first coat, apply the lacquer within the
>> perimeter of the patch, and don't go over the edges. Apply as many
>> coats as you need to get the repair area flush or just slightly below
>> flush with the other surface. Don't overfill it! if you do you will
>> have to find a way to sand it off, and when you do you will see it.
>> It is actually better to be a tiny bit under filled rather than over
>> filled. If you over fill you won't be able to sand your excess
>> material off/even without cutting into the existing coated surface.
>>
>> Remember, most of the time a good finish repair is simply about
>> fooling the eye, nothing else. So if you under fill the surface just
>> a tiny, tiny bit, you can easily match reflectivity of the patch
>> surface of the filled area by putting a flattening device such as
>> scotch brite pads or even a bit of well worn fine grit sandpaper to
>> work, using a very light touch. Move your flattener in the direction
>> of the grain ONLY to mimic the striations of the grain.
>>
>> I wouldn't use steel wool as it has oil on it to keep it from
>> rusting. If you decide that you should have put one more coat of
>> lacquer on your patch before you call it good, you will now have to
>> clean the oil off the patch area before finishing instead of just
>> putting a bit more on top of the old finish.
>>
>> No steaming or soldering irons, no shellac, no french polishing (still
>> don't know where that came from...) and no steel wool.
>>
>> And wow.... later added by MJ
>>
>> " I imagine you can treat the witness lines the same as graining.
>> Color them out."
>>
>>
>>>> I imagine << that you do not have one iota of knowledge on this
>>>> subject. Not a remote clue, no idea, and probably haven't seen the
>>>> ball since the kickoff.
>>
>>
>> Robert
>>
>
> Sir -
> You obviously have some problems.
> The outline I gave was a *common* method for basic touch-up.
>
> Use his method.
>
> We will see who doesn't know what they are talking about.
>
>
> Again - Get a book on basic finishing and touch up and see which one it
> agrees with.
>
I basically find that a great many how to books are regurgitated
comments made in other books and not accurately copied.
I put much much more faith in actual experience rather than how a book
and or its comments were interpreted.