"Jay Pique" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Do these things really work? I'm interested in knowing whether I
> could drive them through the face of 1/2" plywood into the edge of
> 3/4" plywood without splitting. (Assuming I'm reasonably near to the
> middle of the edge.)
>
> JP
I've done that. I like Spax screws. Of course you do have to use the right
size. A #12 X 2 1/2" may split it.
Ed
What's not to like about a screw? ;).
Newfoundland (note the capitalized "N", are big friendly beasts but the
darned things are about the size of a Shetland Pony and I would hate to have
to feed one. Also, 1982 was still a bit too close to the adoption of the
red maple leaf flag. I know even my dad, a WWII vet, swore that his flag
was the Canadian Ensign (small Union Jack on a red field with the Canadian
Coat of Arms in the corner) 'cause that was the flag he served and fought
over. So I imagine that in 1982 there were still a lot of vets and others
to whom the red maple leaf was too new, too different or whatever.
But a Robertson Screw! It doesn't get any better than that!
"Jim" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Grandpa:
>
> I probably should have been more specific when I said they were not in
> common use. Industry was starting to adopt them, especially the mobile
home
> and recreational vehicle industry. Adoption was also fairly regional for
> some reason - probably word of mouth or cross-pollinatio as employees
moved
> from one company to another. What I was trying to say was that they were
not
> in common use by recreational woodworkers, even though there were in fact
a
> few mail order catalogs selling asmall selections, even back then.
>
> I really didn't mean to imply that they were unknown - heck, they were
> invented in 1908 in Canada, and have been the preferred recess type there
> for many many years. (In fact, the Canadian magazine "TODAY" initiated a
> subscriber survey in 1982, which resulted in the Robertson screw receiving
> the number one ranking of the best things about Canada. It even beat out
the
> newfoundland dog, and the Canadian flag!
>
> Jim Ray, President
> McFeely's Square Drive Screws
> www.mcfeelys.com
>
> "Grandpa" <jsdebooATcomcast.net> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Maybe not in common use but square drive screws as we called them were
> > certainly used many years ago. In high school in the mid 60's I worked
> > at a trailer & camper mfgr, Fleetcraft in DT Seattle and we used them
> > for that. The only problem really was the bit to drive them in. It
> > wore out (rounded end) very quickly unless your air drill was exactly
> > parallel to the screw, which took a few extra seconds. Since time was
> > money you had to work fast and that made for a lot of worn out tips
> > which you had to buy, they were not supplied at company cost<sigh>. Of
> > course the worn out bit meant a worn out screw head too so buyer beware
> > - back then.
> >
> > Jim wrote:
> >
> > <snipped>
> > >
> > > The term "Square Drive" is one that we have been using for almost
twenty
> > > years, not because we were trying to establish a new standard or
> anything,
> > > but because we wanted a descriptive name for the recess when trying to
> > > promote them to woodworkers in the USA.
> >
>
>
In article <[email protected]>, Robert Wein
<[email protected]> wrote:
> Not wanting to sound flippant, but wouldn't "Square Drive" be more
> accurately referred to as "Robertson"?
There are two versions... IIRC, Robertson is tapered slightly while
square drive is not.
djb
--
Was that last sig line lame or what?
In article <[email protected]>, Jim <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Actually, a popular myth. Not sure how it got started, but it sure does make
> the rounds. See my response to Michael Daly above.
Okay, but are there not two versions, one tapered, one not?
djb
--
Was that last sig line lame or what?
"Jay Pique" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> Do these things really work?
Yeah - I was skeptical but the lil' buggers are nice. I keep a box of #8 by
1 1/2" around. And I don't bother with pilot holes.
> I'm interested in knowing whether I
> could drive them through the face of 1/2" plywood
Easy..
> into the edge of
> 3/4" plywood without splitting.
Hard... Don't think Spax brings anything to the table when it comes to
screwing into the edge of anything. Think you'd still be doing pilot holes.
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 08:58:34 -0400, "Jim" <[email protected]> wrote:
[snip]
>Hope a bit of this helps.
>
>Jim Ray, President
>McFeely's Square Drive Screws
>www.mcfeelys.com
Jim, you are way to helpful to be real. I just wanted to let you know
that your knowledge and contributions to this group are greatly
appreciated.
Tim Douglass
http://www.DouglassClan.com
"Robin Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Robert Wein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Not wanting to sound flippant, but wouldn't "Square Drive" be more
> > accurately referred to as "Robertson"?
> >
> > Or does that violate a trademark of some sort?
> >
> <snip>
>
> Hi -
>
> You're correct - it's a trademark. You can't use "Robertson", unless you
buy
> the product from Robertson...
>
> Cheers -
>
> Rob Lee
Where's Mr. Phillips when you need him?
Jon~
On 16-Apr-2004, "Doug Brown" <[email protected]> wrote:
> But a Robertson Screw! It doesn't get any better than that!
I'd agree - the best out there.
BTW, Robertson was quite a prolific inventor. He also invented
the tracer bullet in WWI.
Mike
"Doug Brown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> But a Robertson Screw! It doesn't get any better than that!
Did you verify that with Mrs. Robertson?
"Robert Wein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Not wanting to sound flippant, but wouldn't "Square Drive" be more
> accurately referred to as "Robertson"?
>
> Or does that violate a trademark of some sort?
>
<snip>
Hi -
You're correct - it's a trademark. You can't use "Robertson", unless you buy
the product from Robertson...
Cheers -
Rob Lee
Maybe not in common use but square drive screws as we called them were
certainly used many years ago. In high school in the mid 60's I worked
at a trailer & camper mfgr, Fleetcraft in DT Seattle and we used them
for that. The only problem really was the bit to drive them in. It
wore out (rounded end) very quickly unless your air drill was exactly
parallel to the screw, which took a few extra seconds. Since time was
money you had to work fast and that made for a lot of worn out tips
which you had to buy, they were not supplied at company cost<sigh>. Of
course the worn out bit meant a worn out screw head too so buyer beware
- back then.
Jim wrote:
<snipped>
>
> The term "Square Drive" is one that we have been using for almost twenty
> years, not because we were trying to establish a new standard or anything,
> but because we wanted a descriptive name for the recess when trying to
> promote them to woodworkers in the USA.
Phillips bits are designed to cam-out when overtorqued.
Robertson/square bits are designed not to cam-out when overtorqued.
Slot bits slip out very often...
Grandpa wrote:
> You know, this all begs the question, what makes this screw, or a torx
> tip or others better than the standard phillips or straight slot screws?
> I've used a lot of different ones over the years and have not found one
> to be 'better' than another. Were I to have to select one over the
> other, I'd opt for a combo phillips/straight slot. I am curious though
> if perhaps I'm missing something? A sincere question sir.
On 15-Apr-2004, "Stephen M" <[email protected]> wrote:
> FWIW, Mcfeeley's site (Jim's) does cite the inventor
ISTR that someone on this ng said that square drive are straight
sided whereas Robertson are slightly tapered.
Is this true? I know the Robertson are tapered and like them
that way (easier to put the screwdriver tip in), but know nothing
about the US Square Drive brand.
Mike - who always buys Robertson wood screws.
PS - Pre NAFTA, all (almost all?) electrical stuff in Canada used
Robertson or Robertson/Slot screw heads. Now a lot is Philips
or Philips/Slot, which sucks - you can't get a Philips to stay on
the end of the screwdriver and it takes two hands to put in a
screw or bolt!
"Robin Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> You're correct - it's a trademark. You can't use "Robertson", unless
> you buy the product from Robertson...
I find that to be "a good thing". I don't know how many "square drive"
tools I have thrown away over the years, but I still have every screwdriver
with the Robertson name on it. That name on a tool (or a box of screws)
really means something.
Jay:
Yes, Spax screws really do work. They come complete with threads and
everything! ;-)
However, more to your question, and following my rather flipant answer, the
real issue when using a screw as you propose is the fact that all screws act
as wedges. Splitting can be avoided by removing the material that the screw
shank would ordinarily displace (drilling a pilot hole), or by placing the
screw far enough away from the edge of the board that the material's
interfiber strength is not exceeded. Small screws obviously displace less
material, so they tend to cause fewer splitting problems.
Spax screws, as well as the many variations of sawtooth screws on the market
(including our own ProMaster screws) all work basically the same way - the
saw teeth are designed to cut the fibers as the screw is driven. This does
little to reduce the material displaced by the screw shank. It does seem to
make the screw drive more easily, and it does seem to reduce splitting under
certain conditions.
Unfortunately, the edge grain of plywood is quite different than the face or
edge grain of solid lumber. Plywood is easily de-laminated, and because of
the cross grain laminations, a screw is threading itself into both edge
grain and end grain. Thus, plywood is especially suscepitble to splitting
when a screw is drive into edge grain.
There are several solutions to this:
1. Predrill the hole in the edge plywood edge grain. Use a bit slightly
smaller than the screw shank, and use an extra-long screw to maximize the
thread contact. Also, unless using our ProMax screws with their Optimized
Thread Length, it is a good idea to drill a clearance hole in the first
board so that the screw can not cross thread.
2. Excavate a recess in the plywood edge grain into which you glue a block
of wood, which you can then drive a screw into using your preferred method.
3. Drill a 1" to 1-1/2" diameter hole in the face of the plywood, about 3/4"
to 1" from the edge, but only about 3/4 of the way through the plywood. Then
glue a matching sized dowel into the hole (make sure you orient the grain so
that the face grain is parallel to the edge of the plywood). Drive the screw
so that it threads into the dowel for a very strong joint.
Hope a bit of this helps.
Jim Ray, President
McFeely's Square Drive Screws
www.mcfeelys.com
"Jay Pique" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Do these things really work? I'm interested in knowing whether I
> could drive them through the face of 1/2" plywood into the edge of
> 3/4" plywood without splitting. (Assuming I'm reasonably near to the
> middle of the edge.)
>
> JP
Not wanting to sound flippant, but wouldn't "Square Drive" be more
accurately referred to as "Robertson"?
Or does that violate a trademark of some sort?
I have built furniture for family in the US (I'm in Canada), and I always
use the Robertson (Square Drive) screws. They had to fix something their
son broke, and I had to send them a screwdriver to do it because they
couldn't buy a Robertson where they live!!
"Jim" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Jay:
>
[snip]
>
> Hope a bit of this helps.
>
> Jim Ray, President
> McFeely's Square Drive Screws
> www.mcfeelys.com
I doubt that you will find a more qualified guy to respond than Jim but..
P.L. robertson invented the them in 1908.
The namesake company is still in business:
http://www.robertsonscrew.com/
I suspect that Robertson is a trademark of the Robertson screw company, not
unlike "Kleenex" is to "facial tissue"
FWIW, Mcfeeley's site (Jim's) does cite the inventor
http://www.mcfeelys.com/tech.asp
-Steve
"Robert Wein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Not wanting to sound flippant, but wouldn't "Square Drive" be more
> accurately referred to as "Robertson"?
>
> Or does that violate a trademark of some sort?
>
> I have built furniture for family in the US (I'm in Canada), and I always
> use the Robertson (Square Drive) screws. They had to fix something their
> son broke, and I had to send them a screwdriver to do it because they
> couldn't buy a Robertson where they live!!
>
>
> "Jim" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Jay:
> >
> [snip]
> >
> > Hope a bit of this helps.
> >
> > Jim Ray, President
> > McFeely's Square Drive Screws
> > www.mcfeelys.com
>
>
Michael:
This is one I have answered before, but I'm just too lazy to search for my
prior postings, so here goes again. You can probably Google it though.
The Square Drive recess is an Industrial Fastener Institute (IFI) standard,
and calls for 1.5 degree taper to each face of the recess (3 degrees
total). To my knowledge, no manufacturer purposely makes the recess
non-compliant. One of the major obstacles the inventory overcame was
developing a basically parallel sided recess that was manufacturable.
Providing a slight taper to the recess allowed for easy removal of the
"punch" that forms the recess. The reason for the taper is thus one of
manufacturability, not trademark (and of course, the patents expired long
ago).
The term "Square Drive" is one that we have been using for almost twenty
years, not because we were trying to establish a new standard or anything,
but because we wanted a descriptive name for the recess when trying to
promote them to woodworkers in the USA. There were already enough "vanity"
recess names (Frearson, Phillips, Reed-Prince, etc) that meant nothing to
the user not having prior knowledge of the recess shape (quick now, what is
a Frearson recess?). Identifying the screws as "Square Drive" in our catalog
helped the woodworker know what the screws looked like without research. I
can't tell you that we coined the name "Square Drive", but the screws
certainly were not in common use 20 years ago.
Your comment about the pre-NAFTA Robertson recess use on electrical parts is
interesting. Most of the electrical stuff I work on now has Robertson recess
screws, and much of it is of Canadian manufacture. Please don't tell me that
the US market is starting to see the light just as the Canadians succumb to
the sometimes illogical demands of the US market. Ironic, and rather tragic.
HTH
Jim Ray, President
McFeely's Square Drive Screws
www.mcfeelys.com
"Michael Daly" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 15-Apr-2004, "Stephen M" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > FWIW, Mcfeeley's site (Jim's) does cite the inventor
>
> ISTR that someone on this ng said that square drive are straight
> sided whereas Robertson are slightly tapered.
>
> Is this true? I know the Robertson are tapered and like them
> that way (easier to put the screwdriver tip in), but know nothing
> about the US Square Drive brand.
>
> Mike - who always buys Robertson wood screws.
>
> PS - Pre NAFTA, all (almost all?) electrical stuff in Canada used
> Robertson or Robertson/Slot screw heads. Now a lot is Philips
> or Philips/Slot, which sucks - you can't get a Philips to stay on
> the end of the screwdriver and it takes two hands to put in a
> screw or bolt!
Dave:
Actually, a popular myth. Not sure how it got started, but it sure does make
the rounds. See my response to Michael Daly above.
Jim Ray, President
McFeely's Square Drive Screws
www.mcfeelys.com
"Dave Balderstone" <dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_S.balderstone.ca> wrote in message
news:150420041634221862%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_S.balderstone.ca...
> In article <[email protected]>, Robert Wein
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Not wanting to sound flippant, but wouldn't "Square Drive" be more
> > accurately referred to as "Robertson"?
>
> There are two versions... IIRC, Robertson is tapered slightly while
> square drive is not.
>
> djb
>
> --
> Was that last sig line lame or what?
Dave:
I can't say that every Square Drive screw ever made has been made according
to the IFI standard, but those that are made to the standard have tapered
sides. As I mentioned in my earlier posting, parallel sides make the screws
almost impossible to manufacture because the punch that forms the recess
becomes difficult (if not impossible) to extract. The slight taper provided
in the IFI standard is virtually imperceptible, it's the key to Robertson's
original patents, and it's the thing that makes the recess both functional
(stick fit) and manufacturable. There are two versions only if the
manufacturer doesn't know what the heck they are doing. I guess when it
comes right down to it, there may be two versions: one that works and one
that doesn't! ;-)
So friends, that is why it is important to deal with a supplier that stands
behind their product. (And for what its worth, I can assure you, our Square
Drive Screws have recesses with tapered sides!!!)
Jim Ray, President
McFeely's Square Drive Screws
www.mcfeelys.com
"Dave Balderstone" <dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_S.balderstone.ca> wrote in message
news:150420042111430314%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_S.balderstone.ca...
> In article <[email protected]>, Jim <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > Actually, a popular myth. Not sure how it got started, but it sure does
make
> > the rounds. See my response to Michael Daly above.
>
> Okay, but are there not two versions, one tapered, one not?
>
> djb
>
> --
> Was that last sig line lame or what?
Grandpa:
I probably should have been more specific when I said they were not in
common use. Industry was starting to adopt them, especially the mobile home
and recreational vehicle industry. Adoption was also fairly regional for
some reason - probably word of mouth or cross-pollinatio as employees moved
from one company to another. What I was trying to say was that they were not
in common use by recreational woodworkers, even though there were in fact a
few mail order catalogs selling asmall selections, even back then.
I really didn't mean to imply that they were unknown - heck, they were
invented in 1908 in Canada, and have been the preferred recess type there
for many many years. (In fact, the Canadian magazine "TODAY" initiated a
subscriber survey in 1982, which resulted in the Robertson screw receiving
the number one ranking of the best things about Canada. It even beat out the
newfoundland dog, and the Canadian flag!
Jim Ray, President
McFeely's Square Drive Screws
www.mcfeelys.com
"Grandpa" <jsdebooATcomcast.net> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Maybe not in common use but square drive screws as we called them were
> certainly used many years ago. In high school in the mid 60's I worked
> at a trailer & camper mfgr, Fleetcraft in DT Seattle and we used them
> for that. The only problem really was the bit to drive them in. It
> wore out (rounded end) very quickly unless your air drill was exactly
> parallel to the screw, which took a few extra seconds. Since time was
> money you had to work fast and that made for a lot of worn out tips
> which you had to buy, they were not supplied at company cost<sigh>. Of
> course the worn out bit meant a worn out screw head too so buyer beware
> - back then.
>
> Jim wrote:
>
> <snipped>
> >
> > The term "Square Drive" is one that we have been using for almost twenty
> > years, not because we were trying to establish a new standard or
anything,
> > but because we wanted a descriptive name for the recess when trying to
> > promote them to woodworkers in the USA.
>
In article <[email protected]>,
P©WÉ®T©©LMAN ²ºº4 <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Robin Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Robert Wein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> > Not wanting to sound flippant, but wouldn't "Square Drive" be more
>> > accurately referred to as "Robertson"?
>> >
>> > Or does that violate a trademark of some sort?
>> >
>> <snip>
>>
>> Hi -
>>
>> You're correct - it's a trademark. You can't use "Robertson", unless you
>buy
>> the product from Robertson...
>>
>> Cheers -
>>
>> Rob Lee
>
>Where's Mr. Phillips when you need him?
Don't ask the Secretary.
".... if caught or captured, the Secretary will disavow all knowledge.." :)
"Jay Pique" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I'm most interested in the ability to dispense with the drilling of pilot
holes.
> Would anyone care to do a bit of experimenting with a few 1.5 inch sixes
and
> eights to see if the splitting issue is significant? Hmmm...maybe I
should just
> break out the crowbar and buy a few myself!
I'm a confirmed McFeely's man now - 'cept for that one box of Spax (?spaxes?
spaxies?).
C'mon sing along with me!
"I'm a McFeely Man now, now.
I'm a McFeely Man now, now.
I'm a McFeely Man now, now.
I'm a McFeely Man now, now.
Bangity, bang.
Bangity, bang.
I'm a McFeely Man now, now!"
<To the tune of Sesame Street's I'm a Little Airplane>
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 17:37:09 GMT, "mttt" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Jay Pique" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>
>> Do these things really work?
>
>Yeah - I was skeptical but the lil' buggers are nice. I keep a box of #8 by
>1 1/2" around. And I don't bother with pilot holes.
>
>> I'm interested in knowing whether I
>> could drive them through the face of 1/2" plywood
>
>Easy..
>
>> into the edge of
>> 3/4" plywood without splitting.
>
>Hard... Don't think Spax brings anything to the table when it comes to
>screwing into the edge of anything. Think you'd still be doing pilot holes.
I'm most interested in the ability to dispense with the drilling of pilot holes.
Would anyone care to do a bit of experimenting with a few 1.5 inch sixes and
eights to see if the splitting issue is significant? Hmmm...maybe I should just
break out the crowbar and buy a few myself!
JP
*********************
Now accepting donations of Spax Screws.
You know, this all begs the question, what makes this screw, or a torx
tip or others better than the standard phillips or straight slot screws?
I've used a lot of different ones over the years and have not found
one to be 'better' than another. Were I to have to select one over the
other, I'd opt for a combo phillips/straight slot. I am curious though
if perhaps I'm missing something? A sincere question sir.
Jim wrote:
> Grandpa:
>
> I probably should have been more specific when I said they were not in
> common use. Industry was starting to adopt them, especially the mobile home
> and recreational vehicle industry. Adoption was also fairly regional for
> some reason - probably word of mouth or cross-pollinatio as employees moved
> from one company to another. What I was trying to say was that they were not
> in common use by recreational woodworkers, even though there were in fact a
> few mail order catalogs selling asmall selections, even back then.
On 16-Apr-2004, Grandpa <jsdebooATcomcast.net> wrote:
> I am curious though
> if perhaps I'm missing something?
A Robertson screwdriver will hold the screw and allow you to
drive the screw with one hand. With a Philips, you have to use
one hand to hold the screw and the other to drive it. This makes
it much easier to drive a screw in an ackward spot with a Robertson.
After a lifetime of using Robertson and all the others, I'd have
to say it is the best overall.
Mike