Out on a large job yesterday I ran into a lighting specialist for a
well known company here. He was discussing the merits of different
lighting solutions, LED being one on the table. The man was an
encyclopedia of information.
I will pass this on to you guys and you can do as you will with the
info. Apparently there have been hundreds of fires started by LED
bulbs that were of inferior quality or were improperly vented, many
sold through Home Depot, Lowes and other improvement centers. The rep
showed me picture after picture of local incidents where the bulbs
themselves either melted or caught fire.
http://www.eastcountymagazine.org/node/12795
http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Recalls/2013/LED-Light-Bulbs-Recalled-by-Lighting-Science-Group
There are other manufacturers and articles easily found by DAGS.
According to him, this is the tip of the iceberg as the market has
been flooded with all manner of LED lights of different styles and
configurations. I know this to be true as I have seen more different
kinds of light over the last year that my clients have dug up than I
knew ever existed. Since a couple of them have picked out their own
lighting and a lot of my clients have changed over to LED on a rebate
program from our local power company I know there are a ton of these
bulbs out there.
As much as I read, someway I missed this issue. Thinking others may
have as well, I thought I would pass along. According to the lighting
rep, the only safe bulbs are the ones with the UL testing cert on the
package.
And here I was thinking how nice those low voltage LED strips look
under cabinets or over bookcases... certain types fall in that same
danger category.
Robert
On Apr 24, 12:04=A0pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Out on a large job yesterday I ran into a lighting specialist for a
> well known company here. =A0He was discussing the merits of different
> lighting solutions, LED being one on the table. =A0The man was an
> encyclopedia of information.
>
> I will pass this on to you guys and you can do as you will with the
> info. =A0Apparently there have been hundreds of fires started by LED
> bulbs that were of inferior quality or were improperly vented, many
> sold through Home Depot, Lowes and other improvement centers. =A0The rep
> showed me picture after picture of local incidents where the bulbs
> themselves either melted or caught fire.
>
> http://www.eastcountymagazine.org/node/12795
>
> http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Recalls/2013/LED-Light-Bulbs-Recalled-by-Light...
>
> There are other manufacturers and articles easily found by DAGS.
>
> According to him, this is the tip of the iceberg as the market has
> been flooded with all manner of LED lights of different styles and
> configurations. =A0I know this to be true as I have seen more different
> kinds of light over the last year that my clients have dug up than I
> knew ever existed. =A0Since a couple of them have picked out their own
> lighting and a lot of my clients have changed over to LED on a rebate
> program from our local power company I know there are a ton of these
> bulbs out there.
>
> As much as I read, someway I missed this issue. =A0Thinking others may
> have as well, I thought I would pass along. =A0According to the lighting
> rep, the only safe bulbs are the ones with the UL testing cert on the
> package.
>
> And here I was thinking how nice those low voltage LED strips look
> under cabinets or over bookcases... =A0certain types fall in that same
> danger category.
>
> Robert
Expect that the burned units had plastic casings on their
power supplies. Metal casings bleed off heat much better,
which helps to keep the enclosed circuits from burning out.
Most of the failed T-8 (cheap) fluorescent ballasts I've seen
were plastic boxes. Failed metal-enclosed ballasts are
almost dead-on reliable.
On Wed, 24 Apr 2013 23:44:13 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Leon, you are on your game. The lights in question are failing
>because of the associated electronics as well as plain poor design.
>The associated voltage steppers that go with the 12 volt system are
>for the most part just junk, and inside the box they look like a
>ballast for a florescent fixture. No complicated electronics or
>circuit boards, heat sinks or anything else. So the 12V systems fail
>at the transformer/voltage reducer according to the lighting engineer
>I met.
>
>The larger bulbs are failing NOT from electronic failure, not from any
>voltage problems, or anything of that nature. Bright, room lighting
>LEDs are not flashlight bulbs or low voltage stuff that you put in
>your china cabinet. They generate a fair amount of heat, and they
>must be put in a fixture that dissipates heat or has a proper heat
>sink. These bulbs however are being used in living room lamps, track
>lighting, room lighting, etc. and those fixtures probably don't allow
>the heat to disperse. Certainly, the big box stores provide no
>warnings on proper usage, and that is where the problem starts.
>Unless they are extremely low lumen, those types of bulbs should not
>be put into fixtures designed for incandescent bulbs. The additional
>problems with the bulbs are that they are usually bigger than the
>incandescent bulbs, and they block air flow even more.
>
>Until about a year ago when I put in my first set of LEDs and was
>educated by my electrician, I thought I could cover up the ceiling
>cans for better attic efficiency. I was warned then about the heat,
>but I thought it was only on dedicated fixtures (in this case kitchen
>ceiling recessed cans). No insulation on or within 2" of the cans.
>
>Adding to the problem is the lack of quality that many of the LEDs
>exhibit. The overwhelming bulk are made in China, and that has led to
>all kinds of quality variances. Most large companies make bulbs
>there, but many are certified as 900X factory manufacturers, so that
>helps with manufacturing, but then it doesn't do anything for a poor
>design. Crap is still crap, it is just well made crap.
>
>According to the lighting engineer, by the time the recalls are over,
>there should be about million bulbs being recalled voluntarily or
>involuntarily, and at this point he said the count is at about a half
>million. I can see that. He was pulling out almost 3000 of these
>types of bulbs on a shopping center that were put in by a competitor.
>His competitor simply changed the bulbs... not enough air flow around
>the bulb (and according to him a very crappy bulb to begin with) and
>the were literally melting parts of the bulb and fixtures.
>
>While on topic, he also affirmed what I had read about manufacturer's
>changing their claims of LEDs lasting an average of 50,000 service
>hours. One of the trade publications I had come across said that a
>more reasonable figure for quality LEDs should be pegged at 25K, not
>50K of service hours. The engineer said their newest packaging is
>coming in with that on the boxes, so something else to think about.
>
>While the service hours won't affect any of us, he does malls, parking
>lots, parks, warehouses, factories, car dealerships, etc., so he is
>always keen on all aspects of lighting from a lamp to a factory
>floor. It was good for me to get it all straight from an expert.
>
>Robert
Having been it the energy retrofit market for years before retiring
this has been an on going issue since electronics have played a bigger
of manufacturing. You have so much more potential for failure when
you add in the number of additional components. In the beginning of
electronic ballast installations, on many jobs the failure rate was so
high the manufacturer would end up paying you to go redo the job. You
wanted to be sure you bought from major suppliers.
Mike M
On Wed, 24 Apr 2013 12:52:41 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 4/24/2013 12:13 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>> "Leon" wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> On 4/24/2013 11:40 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>>
>>>> Interesting... LEDs seem like such innocuous devices but having been
>>>> burned
>>>> by my LED Surefire flashlight heat is clearly an issue even with good
>>>> quality LED devices.
>>
>>> I have to ask, what part of your LED flash light burned you???
>>
>> The lens. Surefire warns about heat and I know LEOs and armed guards
>> whom have had similar things happen...
>
>Wow I would never have thought that possible. We have 2, 5 LED dimable
>lamps over our headboard for reading. They can stay on all day long and
>the lenses don't even get warm.
I have lamps with 4 3 watt Crees that never get more than just
slightly uncomfortably warm after 4 or 5 hours.
>
>>
>>>> From this posting we can safely assume there are poor
>>>> quality LED devices out there that present additional risks. I wonder
>>>> how
>>>> we, as consumers, can tell the difference between good ones and those of
>>>> poor quality?
>>
>>> Look for the UL label.
>>
>> Are there UL labels on bulbs or just the devices? I ask because I never
>> noticed them on bulbs.
>>
>>
>Just going by what Robert/Nailshooter indicated. I have never looked.
On Apr 24, 10:04=A0am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> http://www.eastcountymagazine.org/node/12795
>
> http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Recalls/2013/LED-Light-Bulbs-Recalled-by-Light...
>
These are 110v screw-in LED bulbs meant to replace "standard"
incandescents. LEDs typically have a working voltage of 3.3 v DC, at
about 30 mA (for an individual LED). I would be willing to bet that
these units that are overheating have defective power supplies. You
can only get so cheap before safety is affected.
"Leon" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>> I have to ask, what part of your LED flash light burned you???
>
>> The lens. Surefire warns about heat and I know LEOs and armed guards
>> whom have had similar things happen...
>Wow I would never have thought that possible. We have 2, 5 LED dimable
>lamps over our headboard for reading. They can stay on all day long and
>the lenses don't even get warm.
It probably has a lot to do the intensity of the bulbs... on the high
setting it puts out 160 lumen which is likely significantly more than a
reading light. I can read by the lowest setting which is 5 lumen. I should
note too that I had been using the flashlight on it's highest setting for
quite some time in summer conditions so it had a chance to get hot. Most of
the time the duration of use is short and I seldom need more than the 5 or
50 lumen settings so heat isn't usually an issue. In comparison, a AA LED
Mini-Maglite is pretty much cold!
On 4/24/2013 12:13 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
> "Leon" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> On 4/24/2013 11:40 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>
>>> Interesting... LEDs seem like such innocuous devices but having been
>>> burned
>>> by my LED Surefire flashlight heat is clearly an issue even with good
>>> quality LED devices.
>
>> I have to ask, what part of your LED flash light burned you???
>
> The lens. Surefire warns about heat and I know LEOs and armed guards
> whom have had similar things happen...
Wow I would never have thought that possible. We have 2, 5 LED dimable
lamps over our headboard for reading. They can stay on all day long and
the lenses don't even get warm.
>
>>> From this posting we can safely assume there are poor
>>> quality LED devices out there that present additional risks. I wonder
>>> how
>>> we, as consumers, can tell the difference between good ones and those of
>>> poor quality?
>
>> Look for the UL label.
>
> Are there UL labels on bulbs or just the devices? I ask because I never
> noticed them on bulbs.
>
>
Just going by what Robert/Nailshooter indicated. I have never looked.
wrote in message
news:b87efe52-4bbf-4b75-858d-25e1de627684@b20g2000yqo.googlegroups.com...
Leon, you are on your game. The lights in question are failing
because of the associated electronics as well as plain poor design.
The associated voltage steppers that go with the 12 volt system are
for the most part just junk, and inside the box they look like a
ballast for a florescent fixture. No complicated electronics or
circuit boards, heat sinks or anything else. So the 12V systems fail
at the transformer/voltage reducer according to the lighting engineer
I met.
The larger bulbs are failing NOT from electronic failure, not from any
voltage problems, or anything of that nature. Bright, room lighting
LEDs are not flashlight bulbs or low voltage stuff that you put in
your china cabinet. They generate a fair amount of heat, and they
must be put in a fixture that dissipates heat or has a proper heat
sink. These bulbs however are being used in living room lamps, track
lighting, room lighting, etc. and those fixtures probably don't allow
the heat to disperse. Certainly, the big box stores provide no
warnings on proper usage, and that is where the problem starts.
Unless they are extremely low lumen, those types of bulbs should not
be put into fixtures designed for incandescent bulbs. The additional
problems with the bulbs are that they are usually bigger than the
incandescent bulbs, and they block air flow even more.
Until about a year ago when I put in my first set of LEDs and was
educated by my electrician, I thought I could cover up the ceiling
cans for better attic efficiency. I was warned then about the heat,
but I thought it was only on dedicated fixtures (in this case kitchen
ceiling recessed cans). No insulation on or within 2" of the cans.
Adding to the problem is the lack of quality that many of the LEDs
exhibit. The overwhelming bulk are made in China, and that has led to
all kinds of quality variances. Most large companies make bulbs
there, but many are certified as 900X factory manufacturers, so that
helps with manufacturing, but then it doesn't do anything for a poor
design. Crap is still crap, it is just well made crap.
==================================================================================================
I assume you mean ISO 9000, not 900X. ISO 9000 has nothing to do with
quality. All they do is make sure that you are fallowing the procedures that
you said you would. If your procedures are screwed up, ISO will make sure
they stay that way.
On 4/24/2013 5:40 PM, FrozenNorth wrote:
> On 4/24/2013 12:17 PM, Leon wrote:
>>
>> I have had my eye on the LED ribbons that Lee Valley sells I'll have to
>> look into seeing if they carry the UL label.
>
> Just a heads up, I was in a Lee Valley store last week, they had a
> notice up that they are in short supply of many parts for those, and out
> on others. High demand was cited.
HD sells the same brand on line. But thanks.
On 4/24/2013 4:50 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Apr 2013 11:17:49 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> I have had my eye on the LED ribbons that Lee Valley sells I'll have to
>> look into seeing if they carry the UL label.
>
> While certainly not absolutely fireproof, they are 12v, so that should
> meliorate some of your aprehensions.
>
But they use a 110 volt transformer and I would be willing to bet that
the electronics are the problem with the units causing fires.
And having been in the automotive business I can assure 12 volts is as
likely to cause a fire as 110. Its the amperage available that affords
the opportunity.
"Leon" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On 4/24/2013 11:40 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>>Interesting... LEDs seem like such innocuous devices but having been
>>burned
>> by my LED Surefire flashlight heat is clearly an issue even with good
>> quality LED devices.
>I have to ask, what part of your LED flash light burned you???
The lens. Surefire warns about heat and I know LEOs and armed guards whom
have had similar things happen...
>> From this posting we can safely assume there are poor
>> quality LED devices out there that present additional risks. I wonder how
>> we, as consumers, can tell the difference between good ones and those of
>> poor quality?
>Look for the UL label.
Are there UL labels on bulbs or just the devices? I ask because I never
noticed them on bulbs.
On 4/24/2013 11:04 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> Out on a large job yesterday I ran into a lighting specialist for a
> well known company here. He was discussing the merits of different
> lighting solutions, LED being one on the table. The man was an
> encyclopedia of information.
>
> I will pass this on to you guys and you can do as you will with the
> info. Apparently there have been hundreds of fires started by LED
> bulbs that were of inferior quality or were improperly vented, many
> sold through Home Depot, Lowes and other improvement centers. The rep
> showed me picture after picture of local incidents where the bulbs
> themselves either melted or caught fire.
>
> http://www.eastcountymagazine.org/node/12795
>
> http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Recalls/2013/LED-Light-Bulbs-Recalled-by-Lighting-Science-Group
>
> There are other manufacturers and articles easily found by DAGS.
>
> According to him, this is the tip of the iceberg as the market has
> been flooded with all manner of LED lights of different styles and
> configurations. I know this to be true as I have seen more different
> kinds of light over the last year that my clients have dug up than I
> knew ever existed. Since a couple of them have picked out their own
> lighting and a lot of my clients have changed over to LED on a rebate
> program from our local power company I know there are a ton of these
> bulbs out there.
>
> As much as I read, someway I missed this issue. Thinking others may
> have as well, I thought I would pass along. According to the lighting
> rep, the only safe bulbs are the ones with the UL testing cert on the
> package.
>
> And here I was thinking how nice those low voltage LED strips look
> under cabinets or over bookcases... certain types fall in that same
> danger category.
>
> Robert
>
Thanks for the info Robert. Every actual LED that I have seen does not
even get warm. I see your examples point towards the lamp assembly
which would include the transformer/electronics that power the LED. I
would have to think that the LED itself is not the problem rather the
other elements involved in powering the actual LED.
I have had my eye on the LED ribbons that Lee Valley sells I'll have to
look into seeing if they carry the UL label.
On 4/24/2013 11:40 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> ...
>
>> I will pass this on to you guys and you can do as you will with the
>> info. Apparently there have been hundreds of fires started by LED
>> bulbs that were of inferior quality or were improperly vented, many
>> sold through Home Depot, Lowes and other improvement centers. The rep
>> showed me picture after picture of local incidents where the bulbs
>> themselves either melted or caught fire.
>
> Interesting... LEDs seem like such innocuous devices but having been burned
> by my LED Surefire flashlight heat is clearly an issue even with good
> quality LED devices.
I have to ask, what part of your LED flash light burned you???
From this posting we can safely assume there are poor
> quality LED devices out there that present additional risks. I wonder how
> we, as consumers, can tell the difference between good ones and those of
> poor quality?
Look for the UL label.
Leon, you are on your game. The lights in question are failing
because of the associated electronics as well as plain poor design.
The associated voltage steppers that go with the 12 volt system are
for the most part just junk, and inside the box they look like a
ballast for a florescent fixture. No complicated electronics or
circuit boards, heat sinks or anything else. So the 12V systems fail
at the transformer/voltage reducer according to the lighting engineer
I met.
The larger bulbs are failing NOT from electronic failure, not from any
voltage problems, or anything of that nature. Bright, room lighting
LEDs are not flashlight bulbs or low voltage stuff that you put in
your china cabinet. They generate a fair amount of heat, and they
must be put in a fixture that dissipates heat or has a proper heat
sink. These bulbs however are being used in living room lamps, track
lighting, room lighting, etc. and those fixtures probably don't allow
the heat to disperse. Certainly, the big box stores provide no
warnings on proper usage, and that is where the problem starts.
Unless they are extremely low lumen, those types of bulbs should not
be put into fixtures designed for incandescent bulbs. The additional
problems with the bulbs are that they are usually bigger than the
incandescent bulbs, and they block air flow even more.
Until about a year ago when I put in my first set of LEDs and was
educated by my electrician, I thought I could cover up the ceiling
cans for better attic efficiency. I was warned then about the heat,
but I thought it was only on dedicated fixtures (in this case kitchen
ceiling recessed cans). No insulation on or within 2" of the cans.
Adding to the problem is the lack of quality that many of the LEDs
exhibit. The overwhelming bulk are made in China, and that has led to
all kinds of quality variances. Most large companies make bulbs
there, but many are certified as 900X factory manufacturers, so that
helps with manufacturing, but then it doesn't do anything for a poor
design. Crap is still crap, it is just well made crap.
According to the lighting engineer, by the time the recalls are over,
there should be about million bulbs being recalled voluntarily or
involuntarily, and at this point he said the count is at about a half
million. I can see that. He was pulling out almost 3000 of these
types of bulbs on a shopping center that were put in by a competitor.
His competitor simply changed the bulbs... not enough air flow around
the bulb (and according to him a very crappy bulb to begin with) and
the were literally melting parts of the bulb and fixtures.
While on topic, he also affirmed what I had read about manufacturer's
changing their claims of LEDs lasting an average of 50,000 service
hours. One of the trade publications I had come across said that a
more reasonable figure for quality LEDs should be pegged at 25K, not
50K of service hours. The engineer said their newest packaging is
coming in with that on the boxes, so something else to think about.
While the service hours won't affect any of us, he does malls, parking
lots, parks, warehouses, factories, car dealerships, etc., so he is
always keen on all aspects of lighting from a lamp to a factory
floor. It was good for me to get it all straight from an expert.
Robert
On Wed, 24 Apr 2013 18:16:17 -0600, lektric dan wrote
(in article
<[email protected]>):
> On Apr 24, 10:04 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> http://www.eastcountymagazine.org/node/12795
>>
>> http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Recalls/2013/LED-Light-Bulbs-Recalled-by-Light...
>>
> These are 110v screw-in LED bulbs meant to replace "standard"
> incandescents. LEDs typically have a working voltage of 3.3 v DC, at
> about 30 mA (for an individual LED). I would be willing to bet that
> these units that are overheating have defective power supplies. You
> can only get so cheap before safety is affected.
Exactly.
Many of the LED's take far more current, some I've used take several amps.
LED arrays look like a single device, but actually are many smaller LEDs
inside a single package. I've used arrays (Cree) that take 48V at about
300ma.
Note that LED's are current, not voltage dependent devices. A proper power
supply will be current regulated.
-Bruce
wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
...
>I will pass this on to you guys and you can do as you will with the
>info. Apparently there have been hundreds of fires started by LED
>bulbs that were of inferior quality or were improperly vented, many
>sold through Home Depot, Lowes and other improvement centers. The rep
>showed me picture after picture of local incidents where the bulbs
>themselves either melted or caught fire.
Interesting... LEDs seem like such innocuous devices but having been burned
by my LED Surefire flashlight heat is clearly an issue even with good
quality LED devices. From this posting we can safely assume there are poor
quality LED devices out there that present additional risks. I wonder how
we, as consumers, can tell the difference between good ones and those of
poor quality?
On Apr 25, 3:05=A0am, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
> wrote in messagenews:[email protected]=
glegroups.com...
>
> Leon, you are on your game. =A0The lights in question are failing
> because of the associated electronics as well as plain poor design.
> The associated voltage steppers that go with the 12 volt system are
> for the most part just junk, and inside the box they look like a
> ballast for a florescent fixture. =A0No complicated electronics or
> circuit boards, heat sinks or anything else. =A0So the 12V systems fail
> at the transformer/voltage reducer according to the lighting engineer
> I met.
>
> The larger bulbs are failing NOT from electronic failure, not from any
> voltage problems, or anything of that nature. =A0Bright, room lighting
> LEDs are not flashlight bulbs or low voltage stuff that you put in
> your china cabinet. =A0They generate a fair amount of heat, and they
> must be put in a fixture that dissipates heat or has a proper heat
> sink. =A0These bulbs however are being used in living room lamps, track
> lighting, room lighting, etc. and those fixtures probably don't allow
> the heat to disperse. =A0Certainly, the big box stores provide no
> warnings on proper usage, and that is where the problem starts.
> Unless they are extremely low lumen, those types of bulbs should not
> be put into fixtures designed for incandescent bulbs. =A0The additional
> problems with the bulbs are that they are usually bigger than the
> incandescent bulbs, and they block air flow even more.
>
> Until about a year ago when I put in my first set of LEDs and was
> educated by my electrician, I thought I could cover up the ceiling
> cans for better attic efficiency. =A0I was warned then about the heat,
> but I thought it was only on dedicated fixtures (in this case kitchen
> ceiling recessed cans). No insulation on or within 2" of the cans.
>
> Adding to the problem is the lack of quality that many of the LEDs
> exhibit. =A0The overwhelming bulk are made in China, and that has led to
> all kinds of quality variances. =A0Most large companies make bulbs
> there, but many are certified as 900X factory manufacturers, so that
> helps with manufacturing, but then it doesn't do anything for a poor
> design. =A0Crap is still crap, it is just well made crap.
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
> I assume you mean ISO 9000, not 900X. =A0ISO 9000 has nothing to do with
> quality. All they do is make sure that you are fallowing the procedures t=
hat
> you said you would. If your procedures are screwed up, ISO will make sure
> they stay that way.
"X" is actually a common expression used not only in mathematics, but
also in
different sectors of science and by some like me when expressing
themselves
in writing. In all cases, the "X" denotes and unknown factor, in this
case a digit.
Since there are ISO 9000 designations and sub designations, I did not
want to confuse the issue by putting the wrong standard in my post
fearing I might
confuse someone and lead them off track to the subject at hand,as I
apparently
did. So to be clear "X" marks an unknown, exact digit (by me) in this
case.
>> Most large companies make bulbs
>> there, but many are certified as 900X factory manufacturers, so that
>> helps with manufacturing, but then it doesn't do anything for a poor
>> design. Crap is still crap, it is just well made crap.
> All they do is make sure that you are fallowing the procedures that
> you said you would. If your procedures are screwed up, ISO will make sure
> they stay that way.
Again, I didn't think I was being obtuse, but apparently I was. I
stated that
while the ISO certification helps with manufacturing (after all, it is
a
management protocol quality certification) I thought I was clear about
it not
helping poor design when I said "it doesn't do anything for a poor
design".
Good or bad procedures will not fix a poor design.
It seemed clear, but then I tried to reinforce the statement with
"Crap is still
crap, it is just well made crap." Crap is often used as slang for
something
worthless or without value, and in some cases commonly used in
American
vernacular as a referral to feces. What I was intending with that
statement
was that the procedures used in an ISO certified factory will not fix
a poor
design, the intention on my part when making that statement being to
drive
the point home.
Robert
On 4/24/2013 11:04 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> Out on a large job yesterday I ran into a lighting specialist for a
> well known company here. He was discussing the merits of different
> lighting solutions, LED being one on the table. The man was an
> encyclopedia of information.
>
> I will pass this on to you guys and you can do as you will with the
> info. Apparently there have been hundreds of fires started by LED
> bulbs that were of inferior quality or were improperly vented, many
> sold through Home Depot, Lowes and other improvement centers. The rep
> showed me picture after picture of local incidents where the bulbs
> themselves either melted or caught fire.
>
> http://www.eastcountymagazine.org/node/12795
>
> http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Recalls/2013/LED-Light-Bulbs-Recalled-by-Lighting-Science-Group
>
> There are other manufacturers and articles easily found by DAGS.
>
> According to him, this is the tip of the iceberg as the market has
> been flooded with all manner of LED lights of different styles and
> configurations. I know this to be true as I have seen more different
> kinds of light over the last year that my clients have dug up than I
> knew ever existed. Since a couple of them have picked out their own
> lighting and a lot of my clients have changed over to LED on a rebate
> program from our local power company I know there are a ton of these
> bulbs out there.
>
> As much as I read, someway I missed this issue. Thinking others may
> have as well, I thought I would pass along. According to the lighting
> rep, the only safe bulbs are the ones with the UL testing cert on the
> package.
>
> And here I was thinking how nice those low voltage LED strips look
> under cabinets or over bookcases... certain types fall in that same
> danger category.
>
> Robert
>
As a follow up, the Flex Ribbon LED lights that Lee Valley sells are UL
approved per the manufacturers response to this question.
On Wed, 24 Apr 2013 11:52:12 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 4/24/2013 11:40 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> ...
>>
>>> I will pass this on to you guys and you can do as you will with the
>>> info. Apparently there have been hundreds of fires started by LED
>>> bulbs that were of inferior quality or were improperly vented, many
>>> sold through Home Depot, Lowes and other improvement centers. The rep
>>> showed me picture after picture of local incidents where the bulbs
>>> themselves either melted or caught fire.
>>
>> Interesting... LEDs seem like such innocuous devices but having been burned
>> by my LED Surefire flashlight heat is clearly an issue even with good
>> quality LED devices.
>
>I have to ask, what part of your LED flash light burned you???
>
>
> From this posting we can safely assume there are poor
>> quality LED devices out there that present additional risks. I wonder how
>> we, as consumers, can tell the difference between good ones and those of
>> poor quality?
>
>Look for the UL label.
And the absense of the c.h.i.n.a. label
On 4/24/2013 12:17 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 4/24/2013 11:04 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>> Out on a large job yesterday I ran into a lighting specialist for a
>> well known company here. He was discussing the merits of different
>> lighting solutions, LED being one on the table. The man was an
>> encyclopedia of information.
>>
>> I will pass this on to you guys and you can do as you will with the
>> info. Apparently there have been hundreds of fires started by LED
>> bulbs that were of inferior quality or were improperly vented, many
>> sold through Home Depot, Lowes and other improvement centers. The rep
>> showed me picture after picture of local incidents where the bulbs
>> themselves either melted or caught fire.
>>
>> http://www.eastcountymagazine.org/node/12795
>>
>> http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Recalls/2013/LED-Light-Bulbs-Recalled-by-Lighting-Science-Group
>>
>>
>> There are other manufacturers and articles easily found by DAGS.
>>
>> According to him, this is the tip of the iceberg as the market has
>> been flooded with all manner of LED lights of different styles and
>> configurations. I know this to be true as I have seen more different
>> kinds of light over the last year that my clients have dug up than I
>> knew ever existed. Since a couple of them have picked out their own
>> lighting and a lot of my clients have changed over to LED on a rebate
>> program from our local power company I know there are a ton of these
>> bulbs out there.
>>
>> As much as I read, someway I missed this issue. Thinking others may
>> have as well, I thought I would pass along. According to the lighting
>> rep, the only safe bulbs are the ones with the UL testing cert on the
>> package.
>>
>> And here I was thinking how nice those low voltage LED strips look
>> under cabinets or over bookcases... certain types fall in that same
>> danger category.
>>
>> Robert
>>
> Thanks for the info Robert. Every actual LED that I have seen does not
> even get warm. I see your examples point towards the lamp assembly
> which would include the transformer/electronics that power the LED. I
> would have to think that the LED itself is not the problem rather the
> other elements involved in powering the actual LED.
>
> I have had my eye on the LED ribbons that Lee Valley sells I'll have to
> look into seeing if they carry the UL label.
I would suspect that any LED light that screw into an normal socket
would have some way of reducing the voltage from 120 alternating to low
voltage direct current.
So any of the screw into the 120 volt sockets could over heat and cause
fires, if the voltage reduction circuits were not adequate.
On 4/24/2013 12:17 PM, Leon wrote:
>
> I have had my eye on the LED ribbons that Lee Valley sells I'll have to
> look into seeing if they carry the UL label.
Just a heads up, I was in a Lee Valley store last week, they had a
notice up that they are in short supply of many parts for those, and out
on others. High demand was cited.
--
Froz...
The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.
On Wed, 24 Apr 2013 15:50:21 -0600, [email protected] wrote
(in article <[email protected]>):
> On Wed, 24 Apr 2013 11:17:49 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> I have had my eye on the LED ribbons that Lee Valley sells I'll have to
>> look into seeing if they carry the UL label.
>
> While certainly not absolutely fireproof, they are 12v, so that should
> meliorate some of your aprehensions.
I've used many feet of the LED ribbon in woodworking projects as embedded
lighting for glass artwork.
You can find them far cheaper on ebay and amazon (about $0.70/foot) than most
anywhere else.
All the components are passive and not prone to fire, basically it is a
series of three LED's with a small current limiting resistor repeated along
the length. Power is 12 volts, which I usually supply by a wall-wort or
surplus laptop power supply when more current is needed.
The 120V LED bulbs have the ac-dc conversion and current regulation in their
base and this is where cheap components can cause fire issues.
As stated before, it is not the LED itself that poses the hazard, it is the
power supply and finding UL rated power supplies is easy.
-Bruce