The proper answer is 'buy or borrow a table saw with a dado blade'.
However, I don't want to.
I want to use my plunge router to place a 3-1/2" square lap joint
about 3/4" deep on the ends of several pressure treated 2x4s.
I will don a respirator first, no worries.
I've designed an machined jig to allow me to do
this but I want to know how you pro's would approach this
challenge before I search my junk pile for parts.
My Google-fu was not up to the challenge. Instead, it revealed
some table saw adapters.
My band saw refuses to cut anywhere near straight so that's out.
First prize answer would be an inexpensive jig I could pick up
at my local hardware store.
What would SuperWoodworker do?
Thanks!
--Winston
--
Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
>
> What would SuperWoodworker do?
>
Typically what would be done on site by an experienced framing crew
would be a circular saw to make multiple, close together shoulder cuts
at the proper depth, and a chisel to finish chopping the residue of
these cuts out.
If you have a BS, you could use that too as well. I've done it on a
TS, RAS and (as another mentioned) with a skill saw.
If you are removing 3/4" x 3.5" x 3.5" of wood, the router approach
would be better to clean up the lap after one of the aother approaches
was used to HOG OUT the majority of the lap.
On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 06:56:45 -0500, the infamous
[email protected] (Robert Bonomi) scrawled the following:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Larry Jaques <[email protected]> wrote:
>>On Mon, 26 Apr 2010 20:14:21 -0500, the infamous
>>[email protected] (Robert Bonomi) scrawled the following:
>>
>>>>Hi, Robert.
>>>>
>>>>I may revisit this approach, particularly if I can find a circular
>>>>saw blade with a very wide kerf (1/4" or wider?).
>>>
>>>I suppose you could put two blades on the saw. *grin*
>>>an actual dado set, "wobble" or otherwise, is definitely not a good idea,
>>
>>Yeah, and if one's installed backwards, it'll cut well on the return
>>stroke, huh? <chortle>
>
>Awright, wiseacre! You *do* know that somebody actually makes a hand circular
>saw with two *counter-rotating* blades on it, don't you?
ANYTHING Billy Mays sold is wonderful, right? 'Nuff said?
>>>I'll merely point out that you don't _need_ "flat" surfaces, just that
>>>the two surfaces to be joined 'match". This -is- easier to do, with a
>>>bit of 'lay them to together and see where they bind'.
>>
>>Yes you do need flat. Wavy surfaces don't glue-up well. Curved is OK
>>if they mate, but "fairly flat" is a necessity.
>
>No, you do _not_ need flat. Consider a dovetail joint -- no flat surfaces
>whatsoever. The _only_ requirement is that they mate up well.
Um, you're kidding, right? _All_ surfaces on dovies are flat. They're
just created at an angle which is non-perpendicular and non-parallel
to the lumber faces.
>The _easiest_ way to ensure a good mating it to make both surfaces flat,
>but it is -not- a requirement.
If you're using epoxy, that's true. ;)
--
Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.
On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 19:25:29 -0700, the infamous Winston
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>On 4/28/2010 5:06 PM, Lee Michaels wrote:
>> "J. Clarke" wrote
>>>
>>> One option is to have a sailboat shop or an airframe mechanic make you up
>>> a couple of lengths of rigging cable with swaged studs on each end, making
>>> sure one of them is a left hand thread to take a turnbuckle. Not gonna be
>>> cheap, but nobody's going to think it's a "bodge".
>>>
>>> Or if you _gotta_ do it yourself get some stainless cable and Norseman
>>> fittings (they make a left hand stud but good luck actually finding one in
>>> stock anywhere).
>>>
>> I used to make gym equipment and bought a swaging tool and cable cutters. I
>> have since used them many times to make all sorts of things.
>
>(Snip interesting application data)
>
>What do you think of this assembly, if I carefully avoided
>stress risers on the ends?
>
>http://www.prescable.com/top_hat.htm
>
>It doesn't look cheep but if it was reasonably priced, I would be
>able to justify the cost of the ferrule crimpers.
Ten bucks a gate, + s/h. http://fwd4.me/DXc I've done half a dozen
this way and it really is nice, Winnie.
--
Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 4/27/2010 10:42 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>
>> Just be careful how far you take principles. Sure - a cross grain joint
>> is
>> inherently inferior to a joint where the grain runs in the same
>> direction -
>> but will you ever notice that? For centuries, cross grain joints have
>> been
>> in use and have served very well. You can take the theory too far and
>> get
>> all caught up in what you should not do. Net result - analysis
>> paralysis.
>> You'll never build anything. The governing factor should be whether the
>> particular joint, or technique is sufficient for the task at hand, not
>> whether it is the best theoretical approach. A good guiding light is the
>> preponderance of evidence of eons of time. Ignore all the rest.
>
> Bingo!!
>
Damnit! I only needed the free-space and I'd have had a Bingo too! Hate it
when that happens...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 27 Apr 2010 08:18:03 GMT, the infamous Puckdropper
<puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> scrawled the following:
>"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>
>>
>> The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way
>> through.
>>
>
>So, when you cut off a piece of pressure treated lumber, and only the first
>1/4" or so is brown and the rest looks like regular wood (a little darker)
>what's the difference between the brown and the yellowish center?
Treating. The untreated center is yellowish. ;)
--
Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.
On Mon, 26 Apr 2010 20:14:21 -0500, the infamous
[email protected] (Robert Bonomi) scrawled the following:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Winston <[email protected]> wrote:
>>On 4/26/2010 1:48 PM, Robert Bonomi wrote:
>>> In article<[email protected]>,
>>> Winston<[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>(...)
>>
>>
>>>> What would SuperWoodworker do?
>>>
>>> Skilsaw (or equivalent), cut across the 2x4 at the proper distance from
>>> the end, then use the Neander approach -- wide wood chisel and a hammer
>>> to 'split' in from the end.
>>>
>>> *WAY* less dust than the router will throw up.
>>>
>>> Of course, you've got to be able to chisel a flat surface. for the lap.
>>
>>Yes. Please see my forth sentence.
>>
>>> To reduce the effort of Neandering, do a -series- of parallel custs with
>>> the Skilsaw, then break the 'fingers' off, and clean up with the chisel.
>>
>>Hi, Robert.
>>
>>I may revisit this approach, particularly if I can find a circular
>>saw blade with a very wide kerf (1/4" or wider?).
>
>I suppose you could put two blades on the saw. *grin*
>an actual dado set, "wobble" or otherwise, is definitely not a good idea,
Yeah, and if one's installed backwards, it'll cut well on the return
stroke, huh? <chortle>
>>My first attempt failed because I left way too much room between cuts,
>>as mentioned by other groupers.
>
>BTW, there's nothing that says you have to leave _any_ space between the
>cuts -- you can take it all off with the saw blade. "Break it off, and
>clean up with a chisel and/or rasp" just tends to be easier/faster,
>particularly, when you're going 'along' the grain.
Bbbut, that's awfully tricky to do.
>>My chisel-fu is not going to be up to your standard, so it may pay
>>me to continue to let the router create the flat surfaces I require.
>
>I'll merely point out that you don't _need_ "flat" surfaces, just that
>the two surfaces to be joined 'match". This -is- easier to do, with a
>bit of 'lay them to together and see where they bind'.
Yes you do need flat. Wavy surfaces don't glue-up well. Curved is OK
if they mate, but "fairly flat" is a necessity.
>I'm not disparaging the way you're currently doing it -- if it works _for_you_
>that's all that matters. <grin>
>
>When the opportunity presents itself, it is always worthwhile experimenting
>with alternative approaches -- who knows, one of them *may* fit you better
>than the way you have been doing it. Of course, it may not, but you're never
>going to know until you try it.
True, try things until one "fits" your style.
>One other alternative to consider, *IF* you've got the space to stand the 2x4
>_on_end_, and support it stably, is to use a "back saw" (hand saw with a
>reinforced spine on the blade) to cut down the middle of the 2x4s, and then
>lay them down and cut off one of the 'sides', either with the back saw, or
>a power saw. This +does+ call for some skill with the back saw, to hold it
>vertical as you get the cut started.
[One could also set the depth stop in an SCMS (sliding compound miter
saw) and cut them on one of those, Pooh.]
--
Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.
On Apr 27, 11:42=A0am, "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Winston wrote:
> > On 4/27/2010 8:06 AM, Mike Paulsen wrote:
> >> SuperWoodworker might double up 1x4s rather than cutting lap joints
> >> in 2x4s, depending on the application.
>
> > Great idea but 2 x 4 was the smallest PT lumber I could find.
>
> > As dpb says, grain orientation would prevent the joint from being
> > structurally sound anyway, so perhaps a steel frame or maybe
> > some "L" StrongTie joints.
>
> Just be careful how far you take principles. =A0Sure - a cross grain join=
t is
> inherently inferior to a joint where the grain runs in the same direction=
-
> but will you ever notice that? =A0For centuries, cross grain joints have =
been
> in use and have served very well. =A0You can take the theory too far and =
get
> all caught up in what you should not do. =A0Net result - analysis paralys=
is.
> You'll never build anything. =A0The governing factor should be whether th=
e
> particular joint, or technique is sufficient for the task at hand, not
> whether it is the best theoretical approach. =A0A good guiding light is t=
he
> preponderance of evidence of eons of time. =A0Ignore all the rest.
>
> --
>
> -Mike-
> [email protected]
re: "You can take the theory too far and get all caught up in what you
should not do. Net result - analysis paralysis."
Well said!
BTDT
Winston wrote:
> On 4/27/2010 8:06 AM, Mike Paulsen wrote:
>> SuperWoodworker might double up 1x4s rather than cutting lap joints
>> in 2x4s, depending on the application.
>
> Great idea but 2 x 4 was the smallest PT lumber I could find.
>
> As dpb says, grain orientation would prevent the joint from being
> structurally sound anyway, so perhaps a steel frame or maybe
> some "L" StrongTie joints.
>
Just be careful how far you take principles. Sure - a cross grain joint is
inherently inferior to a joint where the grain runs in the same direction -
but will you ever notice that? For centuries, cross grain joints have been
in use and have served very well. You can take the theory too far and get
all caught up in what you should not do. Net result - analysis paralysis.
You'll never build anything. The governing factor should be whether the
particular joint, or technique is sufficient for the task at hand, not
whether it is the best theoretical approach. A good guiding light is the
preponderance of evidence of eons of time. Ignore all the rest.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 14:19:44 -0400, the infamous "J. Clarke"
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>Suggestion--on any gate put in a diagonal brace. This can be a board, a
>piece of wire, a threaded rod, or whatever else suits your fancy. With
>a diagonal brace it's much much less likely to sag.
>
>Also note that aliphatic resin glues like Titebond, while they are very
>strong, tend to creep when subjected to continuous load.
That's an excellent suggestion.
ACE Hardware sells a gate brace kit with a length of wire rope, a pair
of angle bracket ends, screws, and a turnbuckle for $15. They're well
worth it and out-perform z bracing by tenfold.
--
Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.
Winston wrote:
> On 4/28/2010 8:49 AM, Morris Dovey wrote:
>
> (...)
>
>> The only thing I can really brag about is sticking with the project
>> until it was done (I _almost_ didn't).
>
> http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/JBot/
>
> I didn't see a BOM, dimensioned drawings and assembly /setup
> instructions for your JBot, Morris.
>
> You are selling the CD with all this on it for $24.95, yes?
> A 'wood parts' kit for $129.95?
> Full mechanicals kit, minus the motors and electronics for $449.95?
>
> Link? <G>
>
Be very careful of Morris. He can be evil from time to time. He enjoys
making people drool and fanticize. He turns out all this stuff and then
suggest that you could do this too. There's a couple of guys like that
here. Evil - they can be very evil...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Tom B wrote:
> "Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> <snip>
>>
>> Oooooh! Ok - now I can be my usual trouble-making self...
>>
>> Why not do your lap joints like this:
>>
>> http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/LLJ/
>>
>> with something like this:
>>
>> http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/JBot/
>>
>> :)
>>
> Braggart! <GD&R> I wish I had your abilities!
> Tom
Morris gets a kick out of being evil...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
>
> The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way
> through.
>
So, when you cut off a piece of pressure treated lumber, and only the first
1/4" or so is brown and the rest looks like regular wood (a little darker)
what's the difference between the brown and the yellowish center?
Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.
Larry Jaques <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
>
> Yeah, and if one's installed backwards, it'll cut well on the return
> stroke, huh? <chortle>
>
>
*snip*
Ever heard of the Omni Dual Saw? Same idea... except I don't know if
they'd ever tried it going backwards.
"Our saw cuts so well backwards, just imagine what it could do forwards!"
:-)
Puckdroper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.
"dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
>
> Butting in, any glue will glue but some glue better. PVA (white glue)
> is no good around water. Aliphatic ("yellow glue") may or not be
> OK...type one isn't good around water; type 2 is "water resisant"
> which should be fine; type 3 is waterproof.
>
*snip*
Would that happen to be why the various Titebonds are named the way they
are?
Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.
RE: Subject
A circular saw and a chisel followed by a flat bastard file gets the
joint made.
Assemble with some laminating epoxy thickened with micro-balloons and
clamp lightly to hold while epoxy "kicks".
Enjoy a cold beer while observing your craftsmanship and watching
epoxy kick.
Prepare for next project.
Lew
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> On 4/27/2010 4:18 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
>> "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>>
>>> The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way
>>> through.
>>>
>>
>> So, when you cut off a piece of pressure treated lumber, and only the
>> first 1/4" or so is brown and the rest looks like regular wood (a
>> little darker) what's the difference between the brown and the
>> yellowish center?
>
> I'm curious. You say "the first 1/4" or so is _brown_". Are you
> talking about "brown treated lumber"? If so that 1/4" of brown is a
> colorant, not the preservative. It's applied in a separate operation,
> not under pressure.
>
Most of the treated lumber I've seen and recognized is brown, but I do
have a piece that's yellow with a greenish hue to it. I have not cut the
yellow piece, so I don't know if it changes colors (tints) partway
through.
It's entirely possible that there's 4-5 different treatment methods "in
the wild" now and some are the partial treatment using a brown chemical
while others actually penetrate the entire piece.
After all, why do more than necessary? If someone's buying a 4x4 post to
sit on the ground for landscaping and the thinner treatment stops most
everything from getting in, why worry about the core?
Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.
"Larry Jaques" wrote
>
> ACE Hardware sells a gate brace kit with a length of wire rope, a pair
> of angle bracket ends, screws, and a turnbuckle for $15. They're well
> worth it and out-perform z bracing by tenfold.
>
I have cable swaging gear so I have made a lot of these over the years.
One advantage of the turnbuckle approach is that you can adjust it over the
years. No gate will stay the same over the years. But with an adjustable
brace, you can keep it square and true.
"Winston" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
<snipped>
>
> So next, I will try J. Clarke's suggestion because that sounds like it
> would give me a good chance at a flat face surface, quickly.
> I can afford to 'notch' the material then slice off the end if necessary.
> Raw material is cheap. Time and talent are all but nonexistent here.
>
> Thank you for your help, guys.
>
> --Winston
>
That is what I'd do in your shoes... a flatter bottom and if your routing
guide is clamped square to the pieces, a nice fit. Make a couple practice
cuts to achieve the proper depth to wind up with both pieces (joined) on the
same plane.
Be aware cross grain joints don't do well with glue alone over time... peg,
dowel, or screw them as well.
Tom
"Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
<snip>
>
> Oooooh! Ok - now I can be my usual trouble-making self...
>
> Why not do your lap joints like this:
>
> http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/LLJ/
>
> with something like this:
>
> http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/JBot/
>
> :)
>
Braggart! <GD&R> I wish I had your abilities!
Tom
"J. Clarke" wrote
>
> One option is to have a sailboat shop or an airframe mechanic make you up
> a couple of lengths of rigging cable with swaged studs on each end, making
> sure one of them is a left hand thread to take a turnbuckle. Not gonna be
> cheap, but nobody's going to think it's a "bodge".
>
> Or if you _gotta_ do it yourself get some stainless cable and Norseman
> fittings (they make a left hand stud but good luck actually finding one in
> stock anywhere).
>
I used to make gym equipment and bought a swaging tool and cable cutters. I
have since used them many times to make all sorts of things. One application
that was totally a surprise was to make some short cables connected to
eyebolts for shipping machinery in crates. The cables were looped over the
axles or some other part. They were then boltd to the crate bottom. I did a
bunch of those.
And lots of gates, fenceposts and even a leaning garage once.
Therre is a small swaging tool that I saw someplace that costs about $40. It
uses a wrench to tighten the jaws around the swage. I bought mine from a
cable shop. It was cheaper for me to buy all the tools and supplies than to
have them make me up three cables. If you make your own, you just loop the
cable through the eyebolts of the turnbuckle.
You need to measure carefully though. I screwed up a couple of thmes and had
to remake a cable. I now make up one. Then attach one end of the other. Take
some measurements. And only then will I put on that last fitting. With
turnbuckles, you don't get much room to make mistakes.
"Winston" wrote ...
> On 4/28/2010 5:06 PM, Lee Michaels wrote:
>> "J. Clarke" wrote
>>>
>>> One option is to have a sailboat shop or an airframe mechanic make you
>>> up
>>> a couple of lengths of rigging cable with swaged studs on each end,
>>> making
>>> sure one of them is a left hand thread to take a turnbuckle. Not gonna
>>> be
>>> cheap, but nobody's going to think it's a "bodge".
>>>
>>> Or if you _gotta_ do it yourself get some stainless cable and Norseman
>>> fittings (they make a left hand stud but good luck actually finding one
>>> in
>>> stock anywhere).
>>>
>> I used to make gym equipment and bought a swaging tool and cable cutters.
>> I
>> have since used them many times to make all sorts of things.
>
> (Snip interesting application data)
>
> What do you think of this assembly, if I carefully avoided
> stress risers on the ends?
>
> http://www.prescable.com/top_hat.htm
>
> It doesn't look cheep but if it was reasonably priced, I would be
> able to justify the cost of the ferrule crimpers.
>
That is way over my head. I just used eyebolts, cable and turrnbuckles.
They don't cost that much. I assume you are talking about a gate brace.
If you are talking about that fancy cab;e fence, that is a whole other
thing. That gets into high end fabrication, hardware, etc.
Winston <[email protected]> wrote in news:hrc1j411m65
@news7.newsguy.com:
*snip*
> --Winston <-- Uses drill press as paper punch.
>
How do you get around the ragged edge issue? I've thought about using the
drill press a couple times when I had to punch a bunch of holes, but it
seems to me the edges would all come out ragged and be easy to tear.
I've never gotten around to sharpening a hollow tube and using that in the
DP.
Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.
Jack Stein <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
*snip*
>
> Also, I have not a clue what "white wood" might be?
>
White wood is just a generic 2x. It's usually spruce, pine, or fir, and
sometimes it's called SPF or white wood.
Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.
"Winston" wrote
>
> There are compensations to HD.
>
> I needed some cheap scrap to make a 'story plank' for routing.
> They wanted ~$18 for MDF off the rack.
> Found a couple 8' long pieces of MDF in the scrap pile near the sheet saw
> in the back. Flagged down a sales guy who sprayed it for me.
>
> Cost: $1.00 each. That is more like it!
>
I used to buy stuff out of their scrap bin all the time. But they stopped
that and will no longer offer scrap. In fact they have big signs up all
over the back of the store that scrap is not for sale. Something must have
happened to create that policy.
Winston <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
>
> I'm beginning to think that HD managers are given a *lot*
> of autonomy or that their suppliers provide *highly* variable
> product quality and pricing.
>
I suspect your idea about the suppliers (note the plural) providing
highly variable product quality is correct. They probably have several
suppliers for the same thing, so there's no telling how good the next
product shipment will be.
>
> There are compensations to HD.
>
> I needed some cheap scrap to make a 'story plank' for routing.
> They wanted ~$18 for MDF off the rack.
> Found a couple 8' long pieces of MDF in the scrap pile near the sheet
> saw in the back. Flagged down a sales guy who sprayed it for me.
>
> Cost: $1.00 each. That is more like it!
>
> --Winston
The scrap cart is always worth checking out. Not every HD has one, but
it's worth looking for. I've come out of there with hundreds of dollars
of original price lumber while paying only a tiny bit.
It seems Home Depots are about as variable in quality as a random
sampling of hardware stores. Some are really good (like the local one
here), and others are quite bad.
Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.
Winston wrote:
>
>
> Thanks for the info, guys.
>
> I am satisfied that the diagonal 2x4 brace will be more than
> sufficient. At least that was the case with the gates that are
> currently in place.
> --Winston
Likely will. For a different look and feel, there is always the option of
corner bracing - not gussets, but bracing that fits within the door frame
itself, but rather than running diagonally corner to corner, just short
pieces in each corner. All a matter of personal taste.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Winston wrote:
> On 4/27/2010 10:35 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>
>> If you ever encounter an HD associate who you think is giving you an
>> attitude about sorting through lumber, then take it to his manager.
>
> I don't have time for that. His manager knows or he doesn't.
Yeahbut you just propogate the problem if you don't raise the point.
>
>> But then again - that does not make for as good a story here, does
>> it?
>
> What are you implying, Mike?
Implying? Hell, I never imply. It's just one of my tongue in cheek ways of
saying "Oh come on, now..."
>
>>> I looked up after loading my cart and saw that he had closed the
>>> gates on both ends of the aisle, caging me in. He re-appeared and
>>> asked if I wanted out, so I told him 'Yes, unless you want to buy me
>>> lunch'!. :)
>>
>> You never considered what their policy is? Let me inform you...
>> when they have to drop items from the overheads, they must block off
>> the aisle they are working in as well as the adjacent aisle they are
>> facing. They don't typically interrupt shopping that is underway,
>> so while they may close off the aisle you're in, they don't impact
>> your shopping in that aisle. Once you are done, they will carry on
>> with what they need to do.
>
> Policy had nothing to do with it. I was the only one in the entire
> aisle for those few minutes. No forklift in view anywhere. No
> scaffold. No employees. No other customers. Just one person. Me. Just one
> piece
> of gear. My lumber cart. This getting any clearer, Mike?
So - did I misunderstand? I thought you said they barracaded you in. Can't
imagine why they would do that unless they were getting ready to drop
something from overhead. Like I said - if they were going to drop an item
in the adjacent aisle, they would have barracaded off the aisle you were in
also. Then they would simply have waited for you to finish up and leave the
aisle before they could proceed. It's common to find barriers left up after
they are done, but that would keep you from entering, not close you in as I
thought you said.
>
>>> On recommendation from the sales guy, I bought a couple boxes of
>>> 'Primeguard Plus' square / phillips drive screws. They are
>>> said to be good for outdoor use and to be compatible with
>>> the chems in pressure treated lumber. I hope they will be
>>> OK, because they drive like a dream, even into dry wood.
>>>
>>
>> HD screws are *supposed* to be better now than they used to be, but
>> I'm not so sure. I'd probably defer to the old stand-by's myself.
>> McFeely has done well over time. HD did take a dive - at least for
>> a while, with really bad imported screw-junk.
>
> I bought the screws from a high-end lumber store, not HD.
> I think they'll work OK.
>
Probably a wise move.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 00:35:39 -0500, the infamous Mike Paulsen
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 10:06:22 -0500, the infamous Mike Paulsen
>> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>>
>>> Winston wrote:
>>>> The proper answer is 'buy or borrow a table saw with a dado blade'.
>>>>
>>>> However, I don't want to.
>>>>
>>>> I want to use my plunge router to place a 3-1/2" square lap joint
>>>> about 3/4" deep on the ends of several pressure treated 2x4s.
>>> (snip)
>>>> What would SuperWoodworker do?
>>>>
>>> SuperWoodworker might double up 1x4s rather than cutting lap joints in
>>> 2x4s, depending on the application.
>>
>> Where'd you find PT one-bys, Mike?
>>
>
>Minnesota. The local Menards and Home Depot both stock treated 1x4 and 1x6.
Amazing. I'd never heard of them before, let alone seen them. In doing
more research on it, I found out that AZQA is used on Doug Fir. I
hadn't thought that species was PTed.
--
Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.
Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 10:06:22 -0500, the infamous Mike Paulsen
> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>
>> Winston wrote:
>>> The proper answer is 'buy or borrow a table saw with a dado blade'.
>>>
>>> However, I don't want to.
>>>
>>> I want to use my plunge router to place a 3-1/2" square lap joint
>>> about 3/4" deep on the ends of several pressure treated 2x4s.
>> (snip)
>>> What would SuperWoodworker do?
>>>
>> SuperWoodworker might double up 1x4s rather than cutting lap joints in
>> 2x4s, depending on the application.
>
> Where'd you find PT one-bys, Mike?
>
Minnesota. The local Menards and Home Depot both stock treated 1x4 and 1x6.
Winston wrote:
>
> Apparently so. There doesn't appear to be a way
> to make it the concept clear to you.
>
I'm getting tired of your manner of presenting yourself. I might easily
suggest that it is you who has difficulty understanding a concept.
> I thought you said they barracaded you in.
>
> Yes, that is what I said. I was the only one in the aisle. There was
> only one person there. That was yours truly. If there had been two
> people there and one left, that is the number we are talking about.
> One more than zero and one less than two. Only one. A single unit of
> measure. That was me and my lumber cart. That was it.
Wonderful Not a very clever diatribe, and rather meaningless to the point
at hand, but... oh well. You'd have been better off if you had left my
paragraph intact so that you could respond to the intended thought, rather
than extract this section for the sake of being a wise ass, but like I
said - oh well.
>
>> Can't
>> imagine why they would do that unless they were getting ready to drop
>> something from overhead.
>
> Yes. There was no reason except to harass. People do that all the
> time. I don't understand why you can't get your mind around the concept,
> apparently.
There we go - Home Depot making a victim of you. Barracading you in an
aisle just to harass you. Just how in the world would that even be
harassing?
>
>> Like I said - if they were going to drop an item
>> in the adjacent aisle, they would have barracaded off the aisle you
>> were in also.
>
> Nonsense. They only barricade the affected aisle when they are
> stocking.
You are so wrong. You should pay attention to what people tell you before
you go off like an ass. Their policy is to block off the aisle they are
lifting/dropping in and any facing adjacent aisle when using either an order
picker, a reach truck, or a fork lift. That means the only time they will
only block off the aisle they are working in and not another, is when they
are lifting/dropping from racks along the wall. Any other activity requires
they barracade off both their aisle and the asile they are facing. If
they're just using an electric ladder or scissor lift, they won't barracade
the adjacent aisle, but you don't see those in the lumber department too
much.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Apr 26, 10:09=A0am, Winston <[email protected]> wrote:
> The proper answer is 'buy or borrow a table saw with a dado blade'.
>
> However, I don't want to.
>
> I want to use my plunge router to place a 3-1/2" square lap joint
> about 3/4" deep on the ends of several pressure treated 2x4s.
> I will don a respirator first, no worries.
>
> I've designed an machined jig to allow me to do
> this but I want to know how you pro's would approach this
> challenge before I search my junk pile for parts.
>
> My Google-fu was not up to the challenge. =A0Instead, it revealed
> some table saw adapters.
>
> My band saw refuses to cut anywhere near straight so that's out.
>
> First prize answer would be an inexpensive jig I could pick up
> at my local hardware store.
>
> What would SuperWoodworker do?
>
> Thanks!
>
> --Winston
>
> --
>
> Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
> He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
It seems to me that a fairly simple jig, based on the size of your
router base would make short work of this project.
I recently had to cut a number 3 1/2" x 1/2" deep recessed areas in
the middle of some boards and a simple frame made of 1 x 2 stock
clamped to the boards made quick work of them.
All you need is a square frame sized so that the router can only move
enough to cut a 3 1/2" square and a way to mount the jig on top of a 2
x 4.
How about this:
Size up and build the square frame and set it aside.
Take some scrap 2 X material and make a "U" shaped jig so that your 2
x 4's can slip into the "U", essentially giving you a "flat board"
just like I had. This will support your router as you rout the 2 x 4.
Mount the frame on top of this "U", positioned so the center of the
area you need to cut out is in the center of the frame.
Slip a 2 x 4 under the frame into the "U" and rout out your lap joint.
You can oversize the frame to allow the router to clean all of the
material from the end of the 2 x 4 and then just clean up the other
end of the joint with a chisel.
I don't know how this will come out, but I'll try a little ASCII
art...
The Frame:
|-------------------|
| |
| |
| |
| |
|-------------------|
The "U" (=3D) with 2 x 4 (x) inserted, obviouslY not to scale.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3DO=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DO=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DO=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DO=3D=3D=3D
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3DO=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DO=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DO=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Center the Frame over the "U", screw it where indicated (O) and rout
to your heart's content.
"Winston" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 4/27/2010 9:10 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>> Winston wrote:
>>> On 4/27/2010 6:59 AM, dpb wrote:
>
> (...)
>
>>>> Such a cross-grain joint will fail shortly even w/o the
>>>> exposure to weather.
>>>
>>> Even with screws through the facing boards and through the lap joints?
>>> I had no idea doug fir was that weak. I shall have to rethink this.
>>
>> 1. Douglas fir isn't weak. Certainly, there are others stronger but not
>> softwoods AFAIK. You are lucky to live where you can get it easily and
>> (I
>> trust) inexpensively.
>
> It does require careful sorting to find lumber that is halfway clear
> and free of bark and chips, though.
>
Unfortunately - more true than it should be these days. Though - I doubt
you are finding any bark on Home Depot wood. Bends and curves - sure, if
you're looking in the wrong stacks, but no bark.
> Heh! The Home Depot lumber guy apparently didn't like me 'cherry picking'
> his pile of 2 x 4's very much. (I put back my rejects neatly so I don't
> understand his attitude.)
>
Home Depot does not care if you cherry pick one bit. In fact - they want
you to be happy with your purchase. Maybe you're looking through the wrong
stacks, hoping to find what you shouldn't be expecting to find there. They
have both junk wood and good wood. If you want good wood - then go to that
stack and don't be talking about sorting through stacks. Sure - you'll
still have to sort through some, but not like you're talking about.
If you ever encounter an HD associate who you think is giving you an
attitude about sorting through lumber, then take it to his manager. But
then again - that does not make for as good a story here, does it?
> I looked up after loading my cart and saw that he had closed the gates
> on both ends of the aisle, caging me in. He re-appeared and asked if
> I wanted out, so I told him 'Yes, unless you want to buy me lunch'!. :)
You never considered what their policy is? Let me inform you... when they
have to drop items from the overheads, they must block off the aisle they
are working in as well as the adjacent aisle they are facing. They don't
typically interrupt shopping that is underway, so while they may close off
the aisle you're in, they don't impact your shopping in that aisle. Once
you are done, they will carry on with what they need to do.
>
> On recommendation from the sales guy, I bought a couple boxes of
> 'Primeguard Plus' square / phillips drive screws. They are
> said to be good for outdoor use and to be compatible with
> the chems in pressure treated lumber. I hope they will be
> OK, because they drive like a dream, even into dry wood.
>
HD screws are *supposed* to be better now than they used to be, but I'm not
so sure. I'd probably defer to the old stand-by's myself. McFeely has done
well over time. HD did take a dive - at least for a while, with really bad
imported screw-junk.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Winston wrote:
> The proper answer is 'buy or borrow a table saw with a dado blade'.
>
> However, I don't want to.
>
> I want to use my plunge router to place a 3-1/2" square lap joint
> about 3/4" deep on the ends of several pressure treated 2x4s.
(snip)
> What would SuperWoodworker do?
>
SuperWoodworker might double up 1x4s rather than cutting lap joints in
2x4s, depending on the application.
Jack Stein wrote:
> People tend to use PT wood where it's not needed. This includes me.
> You could build the gate out of any wood you want, white pine for
> example, and it would not rot for probably 50 to 100 years, maybe 1000
> years with proper construction and surface treatment.
My first garden gate was made out of "white wood" well primed and painted.
It was rotted in less than a year. The PT replacement is about 12 now, no
rot. Much depends on environment.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
Winston wrote:
>
> Yup. That's the effect I was aiming for with the glued and screwed
> lap joints in the corners.
>
> At one point, I had this fantasy of not using a diagonal brace,
> reasoning that the weight of the brace would probably be about the
> same as it's relative support distribution in relation to the
> effect of the corner lap joints. If you see what I mean.
> (Lucky You!) :)
>
I used the corner brace technique myself on some smallish gates for my deck.
They held square very well in upstate NY climates. These were though, as I
say, smallish. For a wider gate, I think I probably would have gone with a
diagonal brace. It is better but it all depends on how much better you
really need for the application.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 06:06:01 -0700, the infamous Winston
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>On 4/26/2010 10:43 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On 4/27/2010 12:36 AM, Winston wrote:
>>> On 4/26/2010 7:14 PM, Swingman wrote:
>>>> On 4/26/2010 9:04 PM, Winston wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I was hoping to take advantage of the raw wood in flat contact by
>>>>> gluing the corner laps together for added rigidity.
>>>>> Flatter would be better for that use, yes?
>>>>
>>>> Consider a "glue" that can be used with pressure treated wood,
>>>
>>> Whups. I guessed that the chemical treatment penetration would
>>> be shallow enough that the core would remain reasonably unaffected.
>>> I was thinking on the order of say 1/4" depth max.
>>> I will have to check into this. Thanks for the heads up.
>>
>> The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way through.
>
>That'll be the thing I learned today. Thanks!
Or not. I'd love to see a cutoff from the middle of a PT 4x4 from Mr.
Clarke. I've never seen PT injected more than about 1/2", and that was
with a vacuum/pressure treating chamber and steel knife incised on 2
sides.
--
Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.
J. Clarke wrote:
> On 4/27/2010 8:19 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On 4/27/2010 12:36 AM, Winston wrote:
>>>> On 4/26/2010 7:14 PM, Swingman wrote:
>>>>> On 4/26/2010 9:04 PM, Winston wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I was hoping to take advantage of the raw wood in flat contact by
>>>>>> gluing the corner laps together for added rigidity.
>>>>>> Flatter would be better for that use, yes?
>>>>>
>>>>> Consider a "glue" that can be used with pressure treated wood,
>>>>
>>>> Whups. I guessed that the chemical treatment penetration would
>>>> be shallow enough that the core would remain reasonably unaffected.
>>>> I was thinking on the order of say 1/4" depth max.
>>>> I will have to check into this. Thanks for the heads up.
>>>
>>> The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way
>>> through.
>>
>> Nope. Either that or you can get better PT than I can. There are
>> also different strengths of PT; eg, ground contact, direct burial,
>> etc. I have always heard - and agree - that if you cut a piece of PT the
>> resultant raw wood should receive an application of a fungicide. I
>> always do so with Cuprinol.
>
> Any PT I've cut up is the same color all the way through.
None that I have ever cut was.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
Winston wrote:
> On 4/27/2010 5:07 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>> Winston wrote:
>
> (...)
>
>>> Doubtlessly someone makes a 7-1/4" circular saw blade with a wide
>>> kerf (say 1/4"?) just perfect for this app.
>>
>> Put on more than one blade.
>
> Oh! You guys weren't kidding?
>
> I shall try that.
>
> Thanks!
>
> --Winston
Just adjust them so the centers (hub) are touching. You may have to rotate
them so teeth of one are next to the gullets of the other, maybe not.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
On 4/26/2010 9:04 PM, Winston wrote:
> I was hoping to take advantage of the raw wood in flat contact by
> gluing the corner laps together for added rigidity.
> Flatter would be better for that use, yes?
Consider a "glue" that can be used with pressure treated wood, and be
aware that a lap joint is one joint, particularly in this application,
that, in addition to being "glued", needs to be either pinned or screwed
together.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
Winston wrote:
> On 5/2/2010 8:37 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
>> Winston wrote:
>
> (...)
>
>>> I use the Whimpy Wobbly 1/4" blades.
>>
>> I mostly use 3/16th blades. I like thin blades on my saw. They are
>> perfect for 95% of everything I do on the BS, I even re-saw with
>> them. I can cut a lap joint on a 2x for a gate or a work bench, no
>> problem.
>
> If I tension the blade enough to do that, it falls off the top wheel.
Then you need to adjust your wheel. Both upper and lower should be in the
same plane.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
Winston wrote:
> On 4/26/2010 1:23 PM, keith Nuttle wrote:
>> Depending on the number of cuts through the half lap depends on how
>> easy it is to clean up.
>>
>> In mathematical terms.
>>
>> One cut between the two cuts determining the with of the lap = a lot
>> of time with the file or chisel.
>>
>> An infinite number of cuts = very clean lap.
>>
>> Something in between will make it easy to remove the excess wood, but
>> still make it quite easy to clean up the bottom surface. Usually if
>> you make the cuts in <quarter inches slices they come out pretty
>> clean with very little chisel of file work. Also a sharp chisel I
>> find works better the the file.
>
> Yup, you and dadiOH got to the key issue.
>
> I left too much material between cuts and it resulted in much more
> 'post processing' than I would have been comfortable with.
> I see now that leaving say, 1/8"-1/4" between cuts would have made
> that a whole lot easier.
>
> Doubtlessly someone makes a 7-1/4" circular saw blade with a wide kerf
> (say 1/4"?) just perfect for this app.
Put on more than one blade.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
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In article <[email protected]>,
Winston <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 4/26/2010 1:48 PM, Robert Bonomi wrote:
>> In article<[email protected]>,
>> Winston<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>(...)
>
>
>>> What would SuperWoodworker do?
>>
>> Skilsaw (or equivalent), cut across the 2x4 at the proper distance from
>> the end, then use the Neander approach -- wide wood chisel and a hammer
>> to 'split' in from the end.
>>
>> *WAY* less dust than the router will throw up.
>>
>> Of course, you've got to be able to chisel a flat surface. for the lap.
>
>Yes. Please see my forth sentence.
>
>> To reduce the effort of Neandering, do a -series- of parallel custs with
>> the Skilsaw, then break the 'fingers' off, and clean up with the chisel.
>
>Hi, Robert.
>
>I may revisit this approach, particularly if I can find a circular
>saw blade with a very wide kerf (1/4" or wider?).
I suppose you could put two blades on the saw. *grin*
an actual dado set, "wobble" or otherwise, is definitely not a good idea,
>My first attempt failed because I left way too much room between cuts,
>as mentioned by other groupers.
BTW, there's nothing that says you have to leave _any_ space between the
cuts -- you can take it all off with the saw blade. "Break it off, and
clean up with a chisel and/or rasp" just tends to be easier/faster,
particularly, when you're going 'along' the grain.
>My chisel-fu is not going to be up to your standard, so it may pay
>me to continue to let the router create the flat surfaces I require.
I'll merely point out that you don't _need_ "flat" surfaces, just that
the two surfaces to be joined 'match". This -is- easier to do, with a
bit of 'lay them to together and see where they bind'.
I'm not disparaging the way you're currently doing it -- if it works _for_you_
that's all that matters. <grin>
When the opportunity presents itself, it is always worthwhile experimenting
with alternative approaches -- who knows, one of them *may* fit you better
than the way you have been doing it. Of course, it may not, but you're never
going to know until you try it.
One other alternative to consider, *IF* you've got the space to stand the 2x4
_on_end_, and support it stably, is to use a "back saw" (hand saw with a
reinforced spine on the blade) to cut down the middle of the 2x4s, and then
lay them down and cut off one of the 'sides', either with the back saw, or
a power saw. This +does+ call for some skill with the back saw, to hold it
vertical as you get the cut started.
Winston wrote:
> On 4/26/2010 8:02 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>> Winston wrote:
>>> On 4/26/2010 7:27 AM, Swingman wrote:
>>>> On 4/26/2010 9:09 AM, Winston wrote:
>>>>> The proper answer is 'buy or borrow a table saw with a dado
>>>>> blade'. However, I don't want to.
>>>>
>>>> Typically what would be done on site by an experienced framing crew
>>>> would be a circular saw to make multiple, close together shoulder
>>>> cuts at the proper depth, and a chisel to finish chopping the
>>>> residue of these cuts out.
>>>>
>>>> Just one of many options ...
>>>
>>>
>>> I will give that a try.
>>
>> After popping the uncut parts with a chisel, use a shoemaker's rasp
>> (AKA 4 in hand rasp) to smooth the bottoms.
>> http://www.dick.biz/medias/sys_master/711049_01_P_WE_8.jpg
>
> Hokay.
>
> This morning, I followed the technique mentioned by
> you, Swingman and Anthony. (Thanks)
>
> I have a confession to make. I am not Roy Underhill.
>
> I'm an electronics tech with zero woodworking chops.
>
> I placed the cuts at depth and chipped out the scrap between cuts.
> So I got the general idea. I see that if I spent say 10 min. with a
> rasp as suggested, I would eventually arrive at a surface flat enough
> to allow a halfway decent looking workpiece, though I am dubious
> about my ability to do that *twice*. :)
Ten minutes? Nah, 1 minute tops. Maybe you didn't cut the kerfs close
enough together? Leave no more than about 1/8 between them, pop them out (I
usually use a screw driver), if one breaks high, slick it off with a wide
chisel (1" or better), use the rounded rasp side to smooth down.
___________
> So next, I will try J. Clarke's suggestion because that sounds like it
> would give me a good chance at a flat face surface, quickly.
Yes, a fence and doing multiple pieces at one time is a lot faster with
either saw or router. If you use a router, start at the outboard end so you
don't leave the router base hanging over thin air.
____________
> I can afford to 'notch' the material then slice off the end if
> necessary. Raw material is cheap. Time and talent are all but
> nonexistent here.
After you do a couple you'll be an expert :)
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
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Winston wrote:
> On 4/29/2010 7:22 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
>> Winston wrote:
>>> On 4/28/2010 6:37 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
>>>
>>> (Thoughtful reference to unfortunately wasted bandwidth deleted).
>>>
>>>> Anyway, my opinion on all this is you should, just on general
>>>> principles, figure out how to set up and use your BS to make these
>>>> half lap joints.
>>>
>>> You are right of course.
>>> My bandsaw however is very cheaply made.
>>> With extensive tuning and tweaking, it still refuses to cut
>>> straight.
>>
>> I don't have a cheap bandsaw, but it is old. My opinion, never having
>> used a cheap bandsaw mind you, is there is very little about a bs
>> that stops it from cutting "straight". If you can set the table at
>> 90° to the blade, and tension the blade enough so it is "taut" it
>> should cut "straight" Cutting an arc is more problematic as the
>> guides on a quality saw are better at this. Having said that,
>> "straight" on a bs is seldom parallel to the blade. Eventually, or
>> always, a particular blade will require cutting "straight" at an
>> angle.
>
> This makes the miter fence useless and the rip fence moderately so.
A bandsaw fence should be adjustable for drift. "Drift" is the deviation
from parallel to the blade. Drift is common to every bandsaw I have ever
used and depends on numerous things. If your fence isn't adjustable, throw
it away, it is worthless.
To adjust the fence, draw a straight line on a piece of wood 18-30" or so
long and cut along it *without* a fence. Once you have the wood being cut
straight, hold it in place and turn off the saw; now move the fence to the
wood and adjust its angle so it touches the wood you were cutting along its
entire length.
Miter gauges can be adjusted perpendicular to the fence once the fence is
adjusted.
In practice I rarely use a fence unless I am ripping lots of stuff and want
each to be close to the same thickness. Instead, I draw a line on the wood
and cut freehand using my thumb and finger as a two point fence; thumb in
front of the blade, finger after.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
Jack Stein wrote:
> dadiOH wrote:
>> Jack Stein wrote:
>>
>>> People tend to use PT wood where it's not needed. This includes me.
>>> You could build the gate out of any wood you want, white pine for
>>> example, and it would not rot for probably 50 to 100 years, maybe
>>> 1000 years with proper construction and surface treatment.
>>
>> My first garden gate was made out of "white wood" well primed and
>> painted. It was rotted in less than a year. The PT replacement is
>> about 12 now, no rot. Much depends on environment.
>
> Painted wood tends to rot immediately if moisture gets under the
> paint, which it eventually always does. If the moisture gets under
> the paint, it can't dry out, and rot always ensues. Unpainted, and
> untreated wood will not rot if it can dry. Painted wood prevents rot
> until moisture gets under the paint. Gates, other than posts sunk in the
> ground,
> tend to air dry quite well in most environments.
>
> I guess if you live in a rain forest or on the ocean, that would
> effect things. Where do you live that a painted gate rotted in less
> than a year?
Central Florida.
> Also, I have not a clue what "white wood" might be?
What Puckdropper said.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
On 4/26/2010 9:09 AM, Winston wrote:
> The proper answer is 'buy or borrow a table saw with a dado blade'.
>
> However, I don't want to.
Typically what would be done on site by an experienced framing crew
would be a circular saw to make multiple, close together shoulder cuts
at the proper depth, and a chisel to finish chopping the residue of
these cuts out.
Just one of many options ...
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
dpb wrote:
> Winston wrote:
>>> On 4/26/2010 9:04 PM, Winston wrote:
> ...
>>>> I was hoping to take advantage of the raw wood in flat contact by
>>>> gluing the corner laps together for added rigidity.
> ...
> If I'm reading your intent correctly, the corner would be grain at
> 90-deg angles. Such a cross-grain joint will fail shortly even w/o
> the exposure to weather.
Over 40 years, I have made hundreds of them. None have ever failed whether
inside or outside.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
Winston wrote:
> On 4/27/2010 6:59 AM, dpb wrote:
>> Winston wrote:
>>>> On 4/26/2010 9:04 PM, Winston wrote:
>> ...
>>>>> I was hoping to take advantage of the raw wood in flat contact by
>>>>> gluing the corner laps together for added rigidity.
>> ...
>> If I'm reading your intent correctly, the corner would be grain at
>> 90-deg angles.
>
> Yes.
>
>> Such a cross-grain joint will fail shortly even w/o the
>> exposure to weather.
>
> Even with screws through the facing boards and through the lap joints?
> I had no idea doug fir was that weak. I shall have to rethink this.
1. Douglas fir isn't weak. Certainly, there are others stronger but not
softwoods AFAIK. You are lucky to live where you can get it easily and (I
trust) inexpensively.
2. If the mating surfaces are reasonably flat your joints will be fine with
or without the screws. Screws are handy to clamp them together while the
glue dries though and won't hurt anything.
The biggest problem with screws is that it is next to impossible to find
convenient sources of hot dipped galvanized screws. Outdoors, plain steel
or electro-plated steel will rust; given time (months to years) the rusted
areas will eventually deteriorate the wood. Bronze, stainless steel and
Monel don't rust.
____________
> This woodworking stuff is more
> complicated than I thought it would be!
Not really. What is complicated is the differing opinions. The best
opinions are based on experience.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
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...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
> The proper answer is 'buy or borrow a table saw with a dado blade'.
It would be difficult to safely cut a lap joint on the end of an 8 foot 2x4
using a table saw with a dado blade. Far too easy for the long board to
shift while cutting. Maybe with a proper jig, but I wouldn't try it.
> I want to use my plunge router to place a 3-1/2" square lap joint
> about 3/4" deep on the ends of several pressure treated 2x4s.
> I will don a respirator first, no worries.
A router would work fine, and it sounds like you're alerady set up for the
task.
I don't know what kind of precision you need, but for rough carpentry I
usually "dado" using my circular saw. For instance, if I want to "let-in"
a 1x4 diagonal brace in a stud wall. Just mark the outside edges where you
need to cut, then set your circular saw to the proper depth (3/4" in your
case). Make a cut on each cut line, then a series of cuts in between. For
construction work I usually just use the claw of my hammer to knock out the
thin strips and clean up the joint. If you need a finer joint, you sould
clean it up with a chisel.
Of course, it might be just as easy to make the cut with a handsaw. With a
sharp saw, it shouldn't take more than a few minutes to cut a half lap
joint.
Take care,
Anthony
On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 18:48:21 -0400, the infamous "J. Clarke"
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>On 4/28/2010 10:33 AM, Winston wrote:
>> On 4/28/2010 5:41 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>> On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 20:03:55 -0700, the infamous Winston
>>> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>>>
>>>> On 4/27/2010 7:04 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 14:19:44 -0400, the infamous "J. Clarke"
>>>>> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Suggestion--on any gate put in a diagonal brace. This can be a
>>>>>> board, a
>>>>>> piece of wire, a threaded rod, or whatever else suits your fancy. With
>>>>>> a diagonal brace it's much much less likely to sag.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also note that aliphatic resin glues like Titebond, while they are
>>>>>> very
>>>>>> strong, tend to creep when subjected to continuous load.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's an excellent suggestion.
>>>>>
>>>>> ACE Hardware sells a gate brace kit with a length of wire rope, a pair
>>>>> of angle bracket ends, screws, and a turnbuckle for $15. They're well
>>>>> worth it and out-perform z bracing by tenfold.
>>>>
>>>> Yeahbut.
>>>>
>>>> I wanna do it myself!
>>>>
>>>> :)
>>>
>>> OK, and then do it again when the latch bolt doesn't line up any more
>>> in the spring, and again in the fall, and twice next year, too. I
>>> prefer a 30 second fix, myself. YMMV
>>
>> You are doubtlessly right, Larry. (It's 'highlight then CTRL-C')
>>
>> I would like something that looks as if I intended it as part of
>> the design in the first place, rather than something that is
>> effective but looks like 'just another Winston bodge'.
>>
>> I would even go for some diagonal 1/4" threaded rod
>> with a turnbuckle feature in the middle.
>>
>> I must ponder.
>
>One option is to have a sailboat shop or an airframe mechanic make you
>up a couple of lengths of rigging cable with swaged studs on each end,
>making sure one of them is a left hand thread to take a turnbuckle. Not
>gonna be cheap, but nobody's going to think it's a "bodge".
I thought Winnie had a commaless budget. Stainless wire rope with
properly swaged ends would cost more than the entire rest of the
fence.
>Or if you _gotta_ do it yourself get some stainless cable and Norseman
>fittings (they make a left hand stud but good luck actually finding one
>in stock anywhere).
www.Harborreight.com used to have some 4mm ends.
>
>
>
--
Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.
On Thu, 29 Apr 2010 21:01:17 -0700, the infamous Winston
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>On 4/29/2010 5:48 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 18:48:21 -0400, the infamous "J. Clarke"
>> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>
>(...)
>
>>> One option is to have a sailboat shop or an airframe mechanic make you
>>> up a couple of lengths of rigging cable with swaged studs on each end,
>>> making sure one of them is a left hand thread to take a turnbuckle. Not
>>> gonna be cheap, but nobody's going to think it's a "bodge".
>>
>> I thought Winnie had a commaless budget. Stainless wire rope with
>> properly swaged ends would cost more than the entire rest of the
>> fence.
>
>'S the reason I ask the knowledgeable.
>
>Good info. Thanks!
>
>>
>>
>>> Or if you _gotta_ do it yourself get some stainless cable and Norseman
>>> fittings (they make a left hand stud but good luck actually finding one
>>> in stock anywhere).
>>
>> www.Harborreight.com used to have some 4mm ends.
>
>Continuing Ponder Mode.
Oops, the F is missing there. But they're down for maintenance mode
since their shopping cart is passing out everyone else's info right
now. Oops. I checked yesterday and couldn't find their ends, so they
probably discontinued them. I should have bought some when I had the
chance. American made stainless fixtures are 10x the cost.
--
Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.
"Winston" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 4/27/2010 8:38 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>> Winston wrote:
>>> On 4/27/2010 5:07 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>>>> Winston wrote:
>>>
>>> (...)
>>>
>>>>> Doubtlessly someone makes a 7-1/4" circular saw blade with a wide
>>>>> kerf (say 1/4"?) just perfect for this app.
>>>>
>>>> Put on more than one blade.
>>>
>>> Oh! You guys weren't kidding?
>>>
>>> I shall try that.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> --Winston
>>
>> Just adjust them so the centers (hub) are touching. You may have to
>> rotate
>> them so teeth of one are next to the gullets of the other, maybe not.
>
> Soon as the rain lets up I'll head to the hardware store
> and pick up a couple blades.
>
> This should be good. :)
>
Let me make this really simple for you. Just cut the wood on your line.
Move over and cut again. Repeat. Knock out the remaining standing pieces.
Touch up with a chisel if you need. You're talking minutes of work here
that does not require this amount of discussion. You can make more of a
simple task than is really necessary...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Apr 26, 4:07=A0pm, Winston <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 4/26/2010 10:59 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> (...)
>
>
>
> > What? Why are you using aluminum?
>
> > Grab some scrap wood and drywall screws and throw this thing together
> > in 10 minutes.
>
> My mill can cut aluminum straighter than I can cut scrap.
>
> :)
>
> --Winston
You shouldn't really have to cut anything "straight".
The 2 x 4's for the base are already cut straight, you just have to
cut them to length.
The same goes for anything that you'll be using for the upper frame.
Any kind of scraps that can be laid out in a square will work,
including more 2 x 4's.
I really believe that you are over thinking this fairly simple
project.
On Thu, 29 Apr 2010 20:51:36 -0700, the infamous Winston
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>On 4/29/2010 3:58 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 07:33:09 -0700, the infamous Winston
>> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>
>(...)
>
>>> I would even go for some diagonal 1/4" threaded rod
>>> with a turnbuckle feature in the middle.
>>
>> Yeah, and pick up some of HD's spray-on "Pressure Treated Look" to
>> make it blend in with the sprayed lumber.
>
>'Khaki - in - a - can'? I will look for it.
More like "Hershey-squirt khaki", innit?
>> Ponder why you went to HD for lumber, too, while you're at it.
>> <titter>
>
>Yup. Don't ask me why I did that.
I won't. ;)
>I've repaired a couple fences with wood from a local outfit
>called 'Pine Cone Lumber'. Nice folks. Good quality.
>Reasonable prices.
I've heard of them, believe it or not.
>Figured I'd save a buck by driving down the street to HD anyway.
Didn't we warn you about doing that "thinking" thing? <tsk tsk tsk>
I've recently found out that our local hardware stores are priced
better than the electrical, plumbing, and fastener sections of HD, so
the new store in Phoenix (no, down the street here in Oregon, silly)
isn't a real draw to me any more.
>Bad Tech. *Thwack!* No Cookie.
<g>
--
Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.
On Apr 26, 1:48=A0pm, [email protected] (Robert Bonomi) wrote:
[on making a half-lap joint on board ends]
> Skilsaw (or equivalent), cut across the 2x4 at the proper distance from
> the end, then use the Neander approach -- wide wood chisel and a hammer
> to 'split' in from the end.
>
> *WAY* less dust than the router will throw up.
>
> Of course, you've got to be able to chisel a flat surface. for the lap.
>
> To reduce the effort of Neandering, do a -series- of parallel custs with
> the Skilsaw, then break the 'fingers' off, and clean up with the chisel.
YES! This is the least energy approach, works with the wood grain to
produce the desired shape with simple saw cuts and very quick chisel
work.
A plane or rabbet plane would easily clean up the split face, if
that's
not acceptable straight from the chisel.
The cut or cuts are shallow, and a thin kerf blade is appropriate.
Gang the
boards together and make a Skilsaw (handheld circular saw) kerf on a
half dozen at a time. When those are all done, remove the dust mask.
True neanders will have a miter saw with depth stops, in handheld
back saw style. That will work, too.
Winston wrote:
> On 4/27/2010 8:57 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>> Aliphatic ("yellow glue") may or not be OK...type one
>> isn't good around water; type 2 is "water resisant" which should be
>> fine; type 3 is waterproof.
>
> I will ask for 'type 3 aliphatic glue', yes?
>
> --Winston
That or type 2. Not likely a clerk will know what you want if you ask for
aliphatic glue though. The "type" thing is (I think) what Titebond calls
them, get it or just read the label on other brands.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
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On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 10:42:01 -0400, the infamous "J. Clarke"
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>On 4/27/2010 8:19 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On 4/27/2010 12:36 AM, Winston wrote:
>>>> On 4/26/2010 7:14 PM, Swingman wrote:
>>>>> On 4/26/2010 9:04 PM, Winston wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I was hoping to take advantage of the raw wood in flat contact by
>>>>>> gluing the corner laps together for added rigidity.
>>>>>> Flatter would be better for that use, yes?
>>>>>
>>>>> Consider a "glue" that can be used with pressure treated wood,
>>>>
>>>> Whups. I guessed that the chemical treatment penetration would
>>>> be shallow enough that the core would remain reasonably unaffected.
>>>> I was thinking on the order of say 1/4" depth max.
>>>> I will have to check into this. Thanks for the heads up.
>>>
>>> The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way
>>> through.
>>
>> Nope. Either that or you can get better PT than I can. There are also
>> different strengths of PT; eg, ground contact, direct burial, etc.
>>
>> I have always heard - and agree - that if you cut a piece of PT the
>> resultant raw wood should receive an application of a fungicide. I always
>> do so with Cuprinol.
>
>Any PT I've cut up is the same color all the way through. Yes, there
>are different grades but that is due to different formulation and
>concentration of the treating bath and to different treating techniques,
>not to different degrees of penetration.
>
>If it's dimension lumber and it's not the same color all the way through
>(leaving aside heartwood vs sapwood) then it's crappy treatment and you
>should return it and demand a replacement that has been properly
>treated. Heavy pilings sometimes don't get quite that degree of
>uniformity but even there most of the sapwood should be penetrated.
Every single piece of PT I've cut into both in California and Oregon
over the past 30 years, from at least ten different sources, has had
"crappy treatment", according to your theory, JC. Except for the end
inch, every cutoff I've made has had untreated wood inside, period.
And that goes for Womanized, CCA, AZQ, and others.
Pics, please! Location and sourcing, too, eh?
--
Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.
On Apr 26, 1:07=A0pm, Winston <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 4/26/2010 8:04 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>
>
>
> > It seems to me that a fairly simple jig, based on the size of your
> > router base would make short work of this project.
>
> (...)
>
> > Center the Frame over the "U", screw it where indicated (O) and rout
> > to your heart's content.
>
> Two Great Minds, DerbyDad!
>
> That is almost exactly what my machined jig looks like!
>
> If I can't make any headway using J. Clarke's suggestion,
> I'll go ahead and hog one of these out of some scrap aluminum.
>
> Thanks!
>
> --Winston
>
> --
>
> Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
> He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
re: I'll go ahead and hog one of these out of some scrap aluminum.
What? Why are you using aluminum?
Grab some scrap wood and drywall screws and throw this thing together
in 10 minutes.
"Jack Stein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> J. Clarke wrote:
>> On 4/27/2010 8:19 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>>> J. Clarke wrote:
>
>>>> The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way
>>>> through.
>>>
>>> Nope. Either that or you can get better PT than I can. There are also
>>> different strengths of PT; eg, ground contact, direct burial, etc.
>>>
>>> I have always heard - and agree - that if you cut a piece of PT the
>>> resultant raw wood should receive an application of a fungicide. I
>>> always
>>> do so with Cuprinol.
>>
>> Any PT I've cut up is the same color all the way through. Yes, there are
>> different grades but that is due to different formulation and
>> concentration of the treating bath and to different treating techniques,
>> not to different degrees of penetration.
>
> J. Clark is right. Here are 3 pictures of wolmanized 2x4 and a 2x6 I had
> laying around my shop. These are above ground pieces, not rated for below
> ground use and whether the pictures show it well or not, I can tell you
> the treatment is all the way through. The 3rd one shows the heart wood
> is a different color but the treatment is throughout, and not just he
> first 1/4".
>
> This is standard wolmanized lumber, can't say where I bought it but
> probably 84 lumber, a lumber yard.
>
> http://jbstein.com/Flick/Wolman1.jpg
> http://jbstein.com/Flick/Wolman2.jpg
> http://jbstein.com/Flick/Wolman3.jpg
>
>> If it's dimension lumber and it's not the same color all the way through
>> (leaving aside heartwood vs sapwood) then it's crappy treatment and you
>> should return it and demand a replacement that has been properly treated.
>> Heavy pilings sometimes don't get quite that degree of uniformity but
>> even there most of the sapwood should be penetrated.
>
> I'm pretty sure PT wood must be green when treated. If it is dry, the
> treatment won't penetrate as it is some sort of hygroscopic hocus pocus
> that is going on?
>
I don't know about DF but all 2x SYP is treated dry and 4x and 6x have
to be below 25% moisture content.
basilisk
J. Clarke wrote:
> On 4/27/2010 12:36 AM, Winston wrote:
>> On 4/26/2010 7:14 PM, Swingman wrote:
>>> On 4/26/2010 9:04 PM, Winston wrote:
>>>
>>>> I was hoping to take advantage of the raw wood in flat contact by
>>>> gluing the corner laps together for added rigidity.
>>>> Flatter would be better for that use, yes?
>>>
>>> Consider a "glue" that can be used with pressure treated wood,
>>
>> Whups. I guessed that the chemical treatment penetration would
>> be shallow enough that the core would remain reasonably unaffected.
>> I was thinking on the order of say 1/4" depth max.
>> I will have to check into this. Thanks for the heads up.
>
> The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way
> through.
Nope. Either that or you can get better PT than I can. There are also
different strengths of PT; eg, ground contact, direct burial, etc.
I have always heard - and agree - that if you cut a piece of PT the
resultant raw wood should receive an application of a fungicide. I always
do so with Cuprinol.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
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Winston wrote:
>
> I've tried lateral cuts with the skilsaw, chipping and chiseling.
> My second attempt looked a *lot* better than my first attempt.
It's a practice makes perfect sort of thing, but fortunately - not much
practice. Close to perfect is good enough.
>
> Neither gave me the great looking step provided by the router.
> Each attempt took about the same amount of time so it's an
> easy decision even though the router approach is noisier
> and messier.
>
I still use the saw kerf, chip, chissel method if I'm away from my table
saw, simply because it works. But... if I'm near my table saw, I fire up
the router (mounted under one of the wings) and do a much cleaner and
probably faster job, with it.
> I will have at least two wood screws through each glued lap
> in the corners so I'm pretty confident that will be sufficient.
>
> As Larry says, I would be well advised to provide some kind
> of enhanced diagonal support, like aircraft wire to address sag.
> I am still pondering how to make that brace look a little less
> clumsy than they normally do. Perhaps I will epoxy a couple
> 1/4-20 standoffs inside some 1/2" steel tube and then paint it
> thoroughly.
>
Or... maybe fab a hollow core wood brace cover to go over the aircraft wire
tensioner. Easily removable of course, so you can adjust if necessary. The
wood brace would be purely decorative.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 10:06:22 -0500, the infamous Mike Paulsen
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>Winston wrote:
>> The proper answer is 'buy or borrow a table saw with a dado blade'.
>>
>> However, I don't want to.
>>
>> I want to use my plunge router to place a 3-1/2" square lap joint
>> about 3/4" deep on the ends of several pressure treated 2x4s.
>(snip)
>> What would SuperWoodworker do?
>>
>
>SuperWoodworker might double up 1x4s rather than cutting lap joints in
>2x4s, depending on the application.
Where'd you find PT one-bys, Mike?
--
Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.
On 4/26/2010 7:27 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 4/26/2010 9:09 AM, Winston wrote:
>> The proper answer is 'buy or borrow a table saw with a dado blade'.
>>
>> However, I don't want to.
>
> Typically what would be done on site by an experienced framing crew
> would be a circular saw to make multiple, close together shoulder cuts
> at the proper depth, and a chisel to finish chopping the residue of
> these cuts out.
>
> Just one of many options ...
I will give that a try.
Thanks!
--Winston
On 4/26/2010 10:09 AM, Winston wrote:
> The proper answer is 'buy or borrow a table saw with a dado blade'.
>
> However, I don't want to.
>
> I want to use my plunge router to place a 3-1/2" square lap joint
> about 3/4" deep on the ends of several pressure treated 2x4s.
> I will don a respirator first, no worries.
>
> I've designed an machined jig to allow me to do
> this but I want to know how you pro's would approach this
> challenge before I search my junk pile for parts.
>
> My Google-fu was not up to the challenge. Instead, it revealed
> some table saw adapters.
>
> My band saw refuses to cut anywhere near straight so that's out.
>
> First prize answer would be an inexpensive jig I could pick up
> at my local hardware store.
>
> What would SuperWoodworker do?
>
> Thanks!
Machined jig?!?!?!?!
Clamp the 2x4s side by side. Clamp a scrap across them an appropriate
distance from the cut line as a fence. Clamp another 2x4 crosswise
along the ends for the router to ride on at the ends of the cut. Route
until done.
If this is difficult for you to set up you don't have enough clamps or
don't have the right kind of clamps. And nobody _ever_ has enough
clamps so go get some clamps if you need to.
>
> --Winston
>
>
On 4/26/2010 8:02 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> Winston wrote:
>> On 4/26/2010 7:27 AM, Swingman wrote:
>>> On 4/26/2010 9:09 AM, Winston wrote:
>>>> The proper answer is 'buy or borrow a table saw with a dado blade'.
>>>>
>>>> However, I don't want to.
>>>
>>> Typically what would be done on site by an experienced framing crew
>>> would be a circular saw to make multiple, close together shoulder
>>> cuts at the proper depth, and a chisel to finish chopping the
>>> residue of these cuts out.
>>>
>>> Just one of many options ...
>>
>>
>> I will give that a try.
>
> After popping the uncut parts with a chisel, use a shoemaker's rasp (AKA 4
> in hand rasp) to smooth the bottoms.
> http://www.dick.biz/medias/sys_master/711049_01_P_WE_8.jpg
Hokay.
This morning, I followed the technique mentioned by
you, Swingman and Anthony. (Thanks)
I have a confession to make. I am not Roy Underhill.
I'm an electronics tech with zero woodworking chops.
I placed the cuts at depth and chipped out the scrap between cuts.
So I got the general idea. I see that if I spent say 10 min. with a rasp
as suggested, I would eventually arrive at a surface flat enough to allow
a halfway decent looking workpiece, though I am dubious about my ability
to do that *twice*. :)
I've got 16 of these to do. Unlike you, my 'thrill of
creation' happens with other hardware and not with wood so much.
So next, I will try J. Clarke's suggestion because that sounds like it
would give me a good chance at a flat face surface, quickly.
I can afford to 'notch' the material then slice off the end if necessary.
Raw material is cheap. Time and talent are all but nonexistent here.
Thank you for your help, guys.
--Winston
--
Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
On 4/26/2010 8:04 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>
> It seems to me that a fairly simple jig, based on the size of your
> router base would make short work of this project.
>
(...)
> Center the Frame over the "U", screw it where indicated (O) and rout
> to your heart's content.
Two Great Minds, DerbyDad!
That is almost exactly what my machined jig looks like!
If I can't make any headway using J. Clarke's suggestion,
I'll go ahead and hog one of these out of some scrap aluminum.
Thanks!
--Winston
--
Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
Depending on the number of cuts through the half lap depends on how easy
it is to clean up.
In mathematical terms.
One cut between the two cuts determining the with of the lap = a lot of
time with the file or chisel.
An infinite number of cuts = very clean lap.
Something in between will make it easy to remove the excess wood, but
still make it quite easy to clean up the bottom surface. Usually if you
make the cuts in <quarter inches slices they come out pretty clean with
very little chisel of file work. Also a sharp chisel I find works
better the the file.
On 4/26/2010 1:03 PM, Winston wrote:
> On 4/26/2010 8:02 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>> Winston wrote:
>>> On 4/26/2010 7:27 AM, Swingman wrote:
>>>> On 4/26/2010 9:09 AM, Winston wrote:
>>>>> The proper answer is 'buy or borrow a table saw with a dado blade'.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, I don't want to.
>>>>
>>>> Typically what would be done on site by an experienced framing crew
>>>> would be a circular saw to make multiple, close together shoulder
>>>> cuts at the proper depth, and a chisel to finish chopping the
>>>> residue of these cuts out.
>>>>
>>>> Just one of many options ...
>>>
>>>
>>> I will give that a try.
>>
>> After popping the uncut parts with a chisel, use a shoemaker's rasp
>> (AKA 4
>> in hand rasp) to smooth the bottoms.
>> http://www.dick.biz/medias/sys_master/711049_01_P_WE_8.jpg
>
> Hokay.
>
> This morning, I followed the technique mentioned by
> you, Swingman and Anthony. (Thanks)
>
> I have a confession to make. I am not Roy Underhill.
>
> I'm an electronics tech with zero woodworking chops.
>
> I placed the cuts at depth and chipped out the scrap between cuts.
> So I got the general idea. I see that if I spent say 10 min. with a rasp
> as suggested, I would eventually arrive at a surface flat enough to allow
> a halfway decent looking workpiece, though I am dubious about my ability
> to do that *twice*. :)
>
> I've got 16 of these to do. Unlike you, my 'thrill of
> creation' happens with other hardware and not with wood so much.
>
> So next, I will try J. Clarke's suggestion because that sounds like it
> would give me a good chance at a flat face surface, quickly.
> I can afford to 'notch' the material then slice off the end if necessary.
> Raw material is cheap. Time and talent are all but nonexistent here.
>
> Thank you for your help, guys.
>
> --Winston
>
>
>
>
On 4/26/2010 3:07 PM, Winston wrote:
> On 4/26/2010 10:59 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> (...)
>
>>
>> What? Why are you using aluminum?
>>
>> Grab some scrap wood and drywall screws and throw this thing together
>> in 10 minutes.
>
> My mill can cut aluminum straighter than I can cut scrap.
>
> :)
Oooooh! Ok - now I can be my usual trouble-making self...
Why not do your lap joints like this:
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/LLJ/
with something like this:
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/JBot/
:)
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
On 4/26/2010 1:06 PM, dadiOH wrote:
> Winston wrote:
(...)
>> I am dubious about my ability to do that *twice*. :)
>
> Ten minutes? Nah, 1 minute tops. Maybe you didn't cut the kerfs close
> enough together? Leave no more than about 1/8 between them, pop them out (I
> usually use a screw driver), if one breaks high, slick it off with a wide
> chisel (1" or better), use the rounded rasp side to smooth down.
Ah! I was leaving perhaps 3/8" between cuts. I knew I was doing *something*
very wrong.
> ___________
>
>> So next, I will try J. Clarke's suggestion because that sounds like it
>> would give me a good chance at a flat face surface, quickly.
>
> Yes, a fence and doing multiple pieces at one time is a lot faster with
> either saw or router. If you use a router, start at the outboard end so you
> don't leave the router base hanging over thin air.
I tried J. Clarke's suggestion just now and it worked a treat.
It was noisy, somewhat slow and messy but left a *very nice looking* step
that required no further attention.
As you guys say, I will gang the planks and cut multiple at once.
I will leave extra length and a step on the 'waste' side to support the router.
Then I'll just flip them over and saw off the step.
I can't believe how nicely that worked! Thanks!
> ____________
>
>> I can afford to 'notch' the material then slice off the end if
>> necessary. Raw material is cheap. Time and talent are all but
>> nonexistent here.
>
> After you do a couple you'll be an expert :)
Heh!
--Winston
--
Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
On 4/26/2010 1:23 PM, keith Nuttle wrote:
> Depending on the number of cuts through the half lap depends on how easy
> it is to clean up.
>
> In mathematical terms.
>
> One cut between the two cuts determining the with of the lap = a lot of
> time with the file or chisel.
>
> An infinite number of cuts = very clean lap.
>
> Something in between will make it easy to remove the excess wood, but
> still make it quite easy to clean up the bottom surface. Usually if you
> make the cuts in <quarter inches slices they come out pretty clean with
> very little chisel of file work. Also a sharp chisel I find works better
> the the file.
Yup, you and dadiOH got to the key issue.
I left too much material between cuts and it resulted in much more
'post processing' than I would have been comfortable with.
I see now that leaving say, 1/8"-1/4" between cuts would have made
that a whole lot easier.
Doubtlessly someone makes a 7-1/4" circular saw blade with a wide kerf
(say 1/4"?) just perfect for this app.
Right now, I'm so pleased with the results of hogging out with the
router that I will stick with that method.
Thanks!
--Winston
--
Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
On 4/26/2010 1:38 PM, Morris Dovey wrote:
> On 4/26/2010 3:07 PM, Winston wrote:
>> On 4/26/2010 10:59 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> (...)
>>
>>>
>>> What? Why are you using aluminum?
>>>
>>> Grab some scrap wood and drywall screws and throw this thing together
>>> in 10 minutes.
>>
>> My mill can cut aluminum straighter than I can cut scrap.
>>
>> :)
>
> Oooooh! Ok - now I can be my usual trouble-making self...
>
> Why not do your lap joints like this:
>
> http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/LLJ/
>
> with something like this:
>
> http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/JBot/
>
> :)
Very nice, Morris!
--Winston
--
Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
On 4/26/2010 4:39 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
(...)
> I really believe that you are over thinking this fairly simple
> project.
You are absolutely correct.
It turned out that I only *really* needed to constrain one direction
of one axis. So I clamped a piece of scrap aluminum square on top
of my 2x4 as a fence and routed my step. It turned out much nicer
than I thought it would and requires no cleanup. That'll do.
Thanks for your thoughts on this.
--Winston
--
Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
On 4/26/2010 1:48 PM, Robert Bonomi wrote:
> In article<[email protected]>,
> Winston<[email protected]> wrote:
(...)
>> What would SuperWoodworker do?
>
> Skilsaw (or equivalent), cut across the 2x4 at the proper distance from
> the end, then use the Neander approach -- wide wood chisel and a hammer
> to 'split' in from the end.
>
> *WAY* less dust than the router will throw up.
>
> Of course, you've got to be able to chisel a flat surface. for the lap.
Yes. Please see my forth sentence.
> To reduce the effort of Neandering, do a -series- of parallel custs with
> the Skilsaw, then break the 'fingers' off, and clean up with the chisel.
Hi, Robert.
I may revisit this approach, particularly if I can find a circular
saw blade with a very wide kerf (1/4" or wider?).
My first attempt failed because I left way too much room between cuts,
as mentioned by other groupers.
My chisel-fu is not going to be up to your standard, so it may pay
me to continue to let the router create the flat surfaces I require.
That will be sufficient for the few pieces I need.
Thanks!
--Winston
--
Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
On 4/26/2010 6:14 PM, Robert Bonomi wrote:
> In article<[email protected]>,
> Winston<[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 4/26/2010 1:48 PM, Robert Bonomi wrote:
>>> In article<[email protected]>,
>>> Winston<[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> (...)
>>
>>
>>>> What would SuperWoodworker do?
>>>
>>> Skilsaw (or equivalent), cut across the 2x4 at the proper distance from
>>> the end, then use the Neander approach -- wide wood chisel and a hammer
>>> to 'split' in from the end.
>>>
>>> *WAY* less dust than the router will throw up.
>>>
>>> Of course, you've got to be able to chisel a flat surface. for the lap.
>>
>> Yes. Please see my forth sentence.
>>
>>> To reduce the effort of Neandering, do a -series- of parallel custs with
>>> the Skilsaw, then break the 'fingers' off, and clean up with the chisel.
>>
>> Hi, Robert.
>>
>> I may revisit this approach, particularly if I can find a circular
>> saw blade with a very wide kerf (1/4" or wider?).
>
> I suppose you could put two blades on the saw. *grin*
> an actual dado set, "wobble" or otherwise, is definitely not a good idea,
We agree. 'Power tool racing' is for braver souls than me.
>> My first attempt failed because I left way too much room between cuts,
>> as mentioned by other groupers.
>
> BTW, there's nothing that says you have to leave _any_ space between the
> cuts -- you can take it all off with the saw blade. "Break it off, and
> clean up with a chisel and/or rasp" just tends to be easier/faster,
> particularly, when you're going 'along' the grain.
I grok.
>> My chisel-fu is not going to be up to your standard, so it may pay
>> me to continue to let the router create the flat surfaces I require.
>
> I'll merely point out that you don't _need_ "flat" surfaces, just that
> the two surfaces to be joined 'match". This -is- easier to do, with a
> bit of 'lay them to together and see where they bind'.
I was hoping to take advantage of the raw wood in flat contact by
gluing the corner laps together for added rigidity.
Flatter would be better for that use, yes?
> I'm not disparaging the way you're currently doing it -- if it works _for_you_
> that's all that matters.<grin>
'Perfect' is the enemy of 'good enough'. I am not building a piano,
I am building a fence gate. :)
> When the opportunity presents itself, it is always worthwhile experimenting
> with alternative approaches -- who knows, one of them *may* fit you better
> than the way you have been doing it. Of course, it may not, but you're never
> going to know until you try it.
I agree.
> One other alternative to consider, *IF* you've got the space to stand the 2x4
> _on_end_, and support it stably, is to use a "back saw" (hand saw with a
> reinforced spine on the blade) to cut down the middle of the 2x4s, and then
> lay them down and cut off one of the 'sides', either with the back saw, or
> a power saw. This +does+ call for some skill with the back saw, to hold it
> vertical as you get the cut started.
I'm not interested in developing the technique necessary to make a proper
cut under these circumstances. That sounds like a lot of work and
frustration. I will let Mr. Router do that for now.
I appreciate your thoughts on this.
Thanks!
--Winston
--
Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
On 4/26/2010 7:14 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 4/26/2010 9:04 PM, Winston wrote:
>
>> I was hoping to take advantage of the raw wood in flat contact by
>> gluing the corner laps together for added rigidity.
>> Flatter would be better for that use, yes?
>
> Consider a "glue" that can be used with pressure treated wood,
Whups. I guessed that the chemical treatment penetration would
be shallow enough that the core would remain reasonably unaffected.
I was thinking on the order of say 1/4" depth max.
I will have to check into this. Thanks for the heads up.
> and be aware that a lap joint is one joint, particularly in this application,
> that, in addition to being "glued", needs to be either pinned or screwed
> together.
Yup. I bought a couple boxes of chemical resistant square drive
fasteners from a local 'pro' lumber shop. I figured the shorter
fasteners for the lap corners and the longer fasteners to attach the
fence boards to the frame. Lag bolts for the hinges.
--Winston
--
Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
On 4/27/2010 12:36 AM, Winston wrote:
> On 4/26/2010 7:14 PM, Swingman wrote:
>> On 4/26/2010 9:04 PM, Winston wrote:
>>
>>> I was hoping to take advantage of the raw wood in flat contact by
>>> gluing the corner laps together for added rigidity.
>>> Flatter would be better for that use, yes?
>>
>> Consider a "glue" that can be used with pressure treated wood,
>
> Whups. I guessed that the chemical treatment penetration would
> be shallow enough that the core would remain reasonably unaffected.
> I was thinking on the order of say 1/4" depth max.
> I will have to check into this. Thanks for the heads up.
The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way through.
>> and be aware that a lap joint is one joint, particularly in this
>> application,
>> that, in addition to being "glued", needs to be either pinned or screwed
>> together.
>
> Yup. I bought a couple boxes of chemical resistant square drive
> fasteners from a local 'pro' lumber shop. I figured the shorter
> fasteners for the lap corners and the longer fasteners to attach the
> fence boards to the frame. Lag bolts for the hinges.
>
>
> --Winston
>
>
On 4/27/2010 4:18 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
> "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>>
>> The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way
>> through.
>>
>
> So, when you cut off a piece of pressure treated lumber, and only the first
> 1/4" or so is brown and the rest looks like regular wood (a little darker)
> what's the difference between the brown and the yellowish center?
Crappy treatment.
On 4/27/2010 5:07 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> Winston wrote:
(...)
>> Doubtlessly someone makes a 7-1/4" circular saw blade with a wide kerf
>> (say 1/4"?) just perfect for this app.
>
> Put on more than one blade.
Oh! You guys weren't kidding?
I shall try that.
Thanks!
--Winston
--
Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
On 4/26/2010 10:43 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> On 4/27/2010 12:36 AM, Winston wrote:
>> On 4/26/2010 7:14 PM, Swingman wrote:
>>> On 4/26/2010 9:04 PM, Winston wrote:
>>>
>>>> I was hoping to take advantage of the raw wood in flat contact by
>>>> gluing the corner laps together for added rigidity.
>>>> Flatter would be better for that use, yes?
>>>
>>> Consider a "glue" that can be used with pressure treated wood,
>>
>> Whups. I guessed that the chemical treatment penetration would
>> be shallow enough that the core would remain reasonably unaffected.
>> I was thinking on the order of say 1/4" depth max.
>> I will have to check into this. Thanks for the heads up.
>
> The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way through.
That'll be the thing I learned today. Thanks!
--Winston
--
Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
Winston wrote:
>> On 4/26/2010 9:04 PM, Winston wrote:
...
>>> I was hoping to take advantage of the raw wood in flat contact by
>>> gluing the corner laps together for added rigidity.
...
If I'm reading your intent correctly, the corner would be grain at
90-deg angles. Such a cross-grain joint will fail shortly even w/o the
exposure to weather. Forget the glue; if anything, a flexible glue
_might_ help serve as a moisture barrier similar to a caulk. The
abutted faces will be a moisture wicking point.
As for cutting them, I make the shoulder cut w/ the circular saw and
then use the bow saw (rip blade) to cut the length. Some practice and
can do that as clean or cleaner than any other way and as quickly as well.
--
On 4/27/2010 6:51 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 01:43:14 -0400, the infamous "J. Clarke"
> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>
>> On 4/27/2010 12:36 AM, Winston wrote:
(...)
>>> Whups. I guessed that the chemical treatment penetration would
>>> be shallow enough that the core would remain reasonably unaffected.
>>> I was thinking on the order of say 1/4" depth max.
>>> I will have to check into this. Thanks for the heads up.
>>
>> The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way through.
>
> YOU, sir, have obviously never cut a pressure treated piece of lumber
> in half. The core is never, in my experience, fully treated. Copper
> solutions only penetrate about 1/4", as discussed above.
So, I learned *two* things this week.
They are mutually contradictory, but I stand by my count.
:)
Larry, can I use regular wood glue to bond inner fibers of PT doug fir?
Would epoxy work better? Some other adhesive perhaps?
> That's why I keep 2 colors of dye/preservative in my truck. I have to
> daub it on the cut ends of PT lumber when I'm done so it matches and
> is protected from bugs and moisture. http://fwd4.me/EMu brown (most
> used) and http://fwd4.me/EMy (green) are what I've found locally.
Yup, I have a can of 'environmentally friendly' sealant for cut ends.
It seems to work because I saw no deterioration in some diagonally cut
4 x 4 s that lived in the sun and rain for a decade.
(...)
> I've been using the epoxy coated deck screws, but find that upon
> removal, half the epoxy is rubbed off. I'm in the process of
> converting my stock to galv once again. I want my hard work to
> outlast me. Square drive is definitely the best answer, too, with
> combo (pozi and square) the next best thing. TORX is quite good, as
> well, but square is my fave.
Ya got that right! I tested my first square drive fasteners in lumber
a couple days ago. Absolutely *no* cam-out, even with a 2-1/2" long
screw into dry wood. Solid, Jackson.
---
Discovered an interesting thing (parenthetically speaking).
The same screws are sold in entirely different ways per market.
A 5 lb box of coated 2-1/2" screws cost me $15.00 at the local 'pro'
wood monger. The box is marked "use with phillips *or* square driver".
The same screws from the same manufacturer sold at Home Depot is
priced at >$28.00 and the box makes no mention of the 'square drive'
ability, though the heads are clearly the same. It's almost as if they
want you to cam the screw heads. Funny, that.
--Winston
--
Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
On 4/27/2010 6:59 AM, dpb wrote:
> Winston wrote:
>>> On 4/26/2010 9:04 PM, Winston wrote:
> ...
>>>> I was hoping to take advantage of the raw wood in flat contact by
>>>> gluing the corner laps together for added rigidity.
> ...
> If I'm reading your intent correctly, the corner would be grain at
> 90-deg angles.
Yes.
> Such a cross-grain joint will fail shortly even w/o the
> exposure to weather.
Even with screws through the facing boards and through the lap joints?
I had no idea doug fir was that weak. I shall have to rethink this.
Perhaps I should weld up a steel box tube frame and use tek screws
to hold the facing boards to the front. That'd work but I suspect
it would have to be powder coated. This woodworking stuff is more
complicated than I thought it would be!
> Forget the glue; if anything, a flexible glue
> _might_ help serve as a moisture barrier similar to a caulk. The abutted
> faces will be a moisture wicking point.
>
> As for cutting them, I make the shoulder cut w/ the circular saw and
> then use the bow saw (rip blade) to cut the length. Some practice and
> can do that as clean or cleaner than any other way and as quickly as well.
I can't even place a proper axial cut with a band saw!
As you say above, it would all fall apart quickly anyway.
This is educational. Thanks for your thoughts.
--Winston
--
Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
On 4/27/2010 6:42 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Apr 2010 20:14:21 -0500, the infamous
> [email protected] (Robert Bonomi) scrawled the following:
>
>> In article<[email protected]>,
>> Winston<[email protected]> wrote:
>>> On 4/26/2010 1:48 PM, Robert Bonomi wrote:
>>>> In article<[email protected]>,
>>>> Winston<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>> (...)
>>>
>>>
>>>>> What would SuperWoodworker do?
>>>>
>>>> Skilsaw (or equivalent), cut across the 2x4 at the proper distance from
>>>> the end, then use the Neander approach -- wide wood chisel and a hammer
>>>> to 'split' in from the end.
>>>>
>>>> *WAY* less dust than the router will throw up.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, you've got to be able to chisel a flat surface. for the lap.
>>>
>>> Yes. Please see my forth sentence.
>>>
>>>> To reduce the effort of Neandering, do a -series- of parallel custs with
>>>> the Skilsaw, then break the 'fingers' off, and clean up with the chisel.
>>>
>>> Hi, Robert.
>>>
>>> I may revisit this approach, particularly if I can find a circular
>>> saw blade with a very wide kerf (1/4" or wider?).
>>
>> I suppose you could put two blades on the saw. *grin*
>> an actual dado set, "wobble" or otherwise, is definitely not a good idea,
>
> Yeah, and if one's installed backwards, it'll cut well on the return
> stroke, huh?<chortle>
I will be all set during the 'big crunch'!
>>> My first attempt failed because I left way too much room between cuts,
>>> as mentioned by other groupers.
>>
>> BTW, there's nothing that says you have to leave _any_ space between the
>> cuts -- you can take it all off with the saw blade. "Break it off, and
>> clean up with a chisel and/or rasp" just tends to be easier/faster,
>> particularly, when you're going 'along' the grain.
>
> Bbbut, that's awfully tricky to do.
Indeed.
>> One other alternative to consider, *IF* you've got the space to stand the 2x4
>> _on_end_, and support it stably, is to use a "back saw" (hand saw with a
>> reinforced spine on the blade) to cut down the middle of the 2x4s, and then
>> lay them down and cut off one of the 'sides', either with the back saw, or
>> a power saw. This +does+ call for some skill with the back saw, to hold it
>> vertical as you get the cut started.
That is all but impossible for me. You should see some of the unintentional
angles I've placed along axes over the years using various saws.
Great for making stakes but I'm fresh out of vampires. Very discouraging.
> [One could also set the depth stop in an SCMS (sliding compound miter
> saw) and cut them on one of those, Pooh.]
Sometimes I forget to just walk over to the proper machine in my
10k foot^2 wood shop, like you do on your show, Norm. :)
http://www.klockit.com/itm_img/49597.jpg
But seriously, I'm trying to limit myself to only one new tool per project.
--Winston
--
Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
On 4/27/2010 8:19 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
>> On 4/27/2010 12:36 AM, Winston wrote:
>>> On 4/26/2010 7:14 PM, Swingman wrote:
>>>> On 4/26/2010 9:04 PM, Winston wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I was hoping to take advantage of the raw wood in flat contact by
>>>>> gluing the corner laps together for added rigidity.
>>>>> Flatter would be better for that use, yes?
>>>>
>>>> Consider a "glue" that can be used with pressure treated wood,
>>>
>>> Whups. I guessed that the chemical treatment penetration would
>>> be shallow enough that the core would remain reasonably unaffected.
>>> I was thinking on the order of say 1/4" depth max.
>>> I will have to check into this. Thanks for the heads up.
>>
>> The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way
>> through.
>
> Nope. Either that or you can get better PT than I can. There are also
> different strengths of PT; eg, ground contact, direct burial, etc.
>
> I have always heard - and agree - that if you cut a piece of PT the
> resultant raw wood should receive an application of a fungicide. I always
> do so with Cuprinol.
Any PT I've cut up is the same color all the way through. Yes, there
are different grades but that is due to different formulation and
concentration of the treating bath and to different treating techniques,
not to different degrees of penetration.
If it's dimension lumber and it's not the same color all the way through
(leaving aside heartwood vs sapwood) then it's crappy treatment and you
should return it and demand a replacement that has been properly
treated. Heavy pilings sometimes don't get quite that degree of
uniformity but even there most of the sapwood should be penetrated.
On 4/27/2010 8:06 AM, Mike Paulsen wrote:
> Winston wrote:
>> The proper answer is 'buy or borrow a table saw with a dado blade'.
>>
>> However, I don't want to.
>>
>> I want to use my plunge router to place a 3-1/2" square lap joint
>> about 3/4" deep on the ends of several pressure treated 2x4s.
> (snip)
>> What would SuperWoodworker do?
>>
>
> SuperWoodworker might double up 1x4s rather than cutting lap joints in
> 2x4s, depending on the application.
Great idea but 2 x 4 was the smallest PT lumber I could find.
As dpb says, grain orientation would prevent the joint from being
structurally sound anyway, so perhaps a steel frame or maybe
some "L" StrongTie joints.
http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/T-L.asp
Thanks for helping the noob, guys.
--Winston
--
Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
On 4/30/2010 8:57 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Apr 2010 20:43:54 -0700, the infamous Winston
> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>
>> On 4/29/2010 7:12 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>
>> (...)
>>
>>> Ten bucks a gate, + s/h. http://fwd4.me/DXc I've done half a dozen
>>> this way and it really is nice, Winnie.
>>
>>
>> Say! That is way better than 80+ smackolas per side.
>> Thanks, Larry!
>
> And it readjusts in 30 seconds every other season, no tools involved
> (-if- you greased the turnbuckle.)
Splendid.
--Winston
On 5/1/2010 8:36 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Sat, 01 May 2010 16:04:54 -0700, the infamous Winston
> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
(...)
>> (Mind out of the gutter, Larry)
>
> Why? All my friends are here!
Heh!
>
>> If the gates start sagging, I'll string them up with the cheapo
>> deluxe cable thingy you mentioned earlier.
>
> Yew mispeld "when".
My original fence gates were destroyed when my landscape contractor
left them open during a windstorm. (Man, wood sure shatters when you
slam it back and forth against stucco for only 8 hours.)
The gates never sagged, though. This is remarkable, because the gates
were installed backwards so that the diagonal brace was in tension
rather than in compression.
So, I'm gonna try the flat laps without the diagonal brace and
we shall see. The retrofit will be trivial WHEN these start
sagging.
:)
--Winston
On Sat, 01 May 2010 16:04:54 -0700, the infamous Winston
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>On 4/30/2010 9:04 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>> Oops, the F is missing there. But they're down for maintenance mode
>> since their shopping cart is passing out everyone else's info right
>> now. Oops. I checked yesterday and couldn't find their ends, so they
>> probably discontinued them. I should have bought some when I had the
>> chance. American made stainless fixtures are 10x the cost.
>
>I'm gonna go with the glued and screwed lap joints.
>
>(Mind out of the gutter, Larry)
Why? All my friends are here! Glue is an improper lube, BTW, but try
it and let us know when you get out of the ER. Be sure to snap pics of
the ER crew's faces when you tell them what happened.
>If the gates start sagging, I'll string them up with the cheapo
>deluxe cable thingy you mentioned earlier.
Yew mispeld "when".
--
Courage is the power to let go of the familiar.
-- Raymond Lindquist
On Thu, 29 Apr 2010 20:43:54 -0700, the infamous Winston
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>On 4/29/2010 7:12 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>(...)
>
>> Ten bucks a gate, + s/h. http://fwd4.me/DXc I've done half a dozen
>> this way and it really is nice, Winnie.
>
>
>Say! That is way better than 80+ smackolas per side.
>Thanks, Larry!
And it readjusts in 30 seconds every other season, no tools involved
(-if- you greased the turnbuckle.)
--
Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.
On 4/27/2010 8:38 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> Winston wrote:
>> On 4/27/2010 5:07 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>>> Winston wrote:
>>
>> (...)
>>
>>>> Doubtlessly someone makes a 7-1/4" circular saw blade with a wide
>>>> kerf (say 1/4"?) just perfect for this app.
>>>
>>> Put on more than one blade.
>>
>> Oh! You guys weren't kidding?
>>
>> I shall try that.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> --Winston
>
> Just adjust them so the centers (hub) are touching. You may have to rotate
> them so teeth of one are next to the gullets of the other, maybe not.
Soon as the rain lets up I'll head to the hardware store
and pick up a couple blades.
This should be good. :)
--Winston
--
Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
On 4/27/2010 8:57 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> Aliphatic ("yellow glue") may or not be OK...type one
> isn't good around water; type 2 is "water resisant" which should be fine;
> type 3 is waterproof.
I will ask for 'type 3 aliphatic glue', yes?
--Winston
--
Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
On 4/27/2010 9:10 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> Winston wrote:
>> On 4/27/2010 6:59 AM, dpb wrote:
(...)
>>> Such a cross-grain joint will fail shortly even w/o the
>>> exposure to weather.
>>
>> Even with screws through the facing boards and through the lap joints?
>> I had no idea doug fir was that weak. I shall have to rethink this.
>
> 1. Douglas fir isn't weak. Certainly, there are others stronger but not
> softwoods AFAIK. You are lucky to live where you can get it easily and (I
> trust) inexpensively.
It does require careful sorting to find lumber that is halfway clear
and free of bark and chips, though.
Heh! The Home Depot lumber guy apparently didn't like me 'cherry picking'
his pile of 2 x 4's very much. (I put back my rejects neatly so I don't
understand his attitude.)
I looked up after loading my cart and saw that he had closed the gates
on both ends of the aisle, caging me in. He re-appeared and asked if
I wanted out, so I told him 'Yes, unless you want to buy me lunch'!. :)
> 2. If the mating surfaces are reasonably flat your joints will be fine with
> or without the screws. Screws are handy to clamp them together while the
> glue dries though and won't hurt anything.
OK.
> The biggest problem with screws is that it is next to impossible to find
> convenient sources of hot dipped galvanized screws. Outdoors, plain steel
> or electro-plated steel will rust; given time (months to years) the rusted
> areas will eventually deteriorate the wood. Bronze, stainless steel and
> Monel don't rust.
On recommendation from the sales guy, I bought a couple boxes of
'Primeguard Plus' square / phillips drive screws. They are
said to be good for outdoor use and to be compatible with
the chems in pressure treated lumber. I hope they will be
OK, because they drive like a dream, even into dry wood.
(...)
>> This woodworking stuff is more
>> complicated than I thought it would be!
>
> Not really. What is complicated is the differing opinions. The best
> opinions are based on experience.
I will go with Plan 'A' (lap frame corners, glued and screwed).
I've been really lucky with the rest of the fence so perhaps
this will work, too.
Thanks!
--Winston
--
Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
On 4/27/2010 8:42 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Winston wrote:
>> On 4/27/2010 8:06 AM, Mike Paulsen wrote:
>
>>> SuperWoodworker might double up 1x4s rather than cutting lap joints
>>> in 2x4s, depending on the application.
>>
>> Great idea but 2 x 4 was the smallest PT lumber I could find.
>>
>> As dpb says, grain orientation would prevent the joint from being
>> structurally sound anyway, so perhaps a steel frame or maybe
>> some "L" StrongTie joints.
>>
>
> Just be careful how far you take principles. Sure - a cross grain joint is
> inherently inferior to a joint where the grain runs in the same direction -
> but will you ever notice that?
From what you and dadiOH are saying, the glued and screwed cross grain
corner lap joints will be sufficiently strong in a frame for a <4' wide
fence gate.
That's good enough for me, so I will try it out.
> For centuries, cross grain joints have been
> in use and have served very well. You can take the theory too far and get
> all caught up in what you should not do. Net result - analysis paralysis.
> You'll never build anything. The governing factor should be whether the
> particular joint, or technique is sufficient for the task at hand, not
> whether it is the best theoretical approach.A good guiding light is the
> preponderance of evidence of eons of time. Ignore all the rest.
OK, Thanks!
--Winston
--
Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
On Sat, 01 May 2010 21:10:08 -0700, the infamous Winston
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>On 5/1/2010 8:36 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Sat, 01 May 2010 16:04:54 -0700, the infamous Winston
>> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>
>(...)
>
>>> (Mind out of the gutter, Larry)
>>
>> Why? All my friends are here!
>
>Heh!
>
>>
>>> If the gates start sagging, I'll string them up with the cheapo
>>> deluxe cable thingy you mentioned earlier.
>>
>> Yew mispeld "when".
>
>My original fence gates were destroyed when my landscape contractor
>left them open during a windstorm. (Man, wood sure shatters when you
>slam it back and forth against stucco for only 8 hours.)
How's your stucco? =:0
>The gates never sagged, though. This is remarkable, because the gates
>were installed backwards so that the diagonal brace was in tension
>rather than in compression.
I absolutely hate seeing that...unless I'm hired to fix the gate, in
which case I point it out.
>So, I'm gonna try the flat laps without the diagonal brace and
>we shall see. The retrofit will be trivial WHEN these start
>sagging.
There ya go. Buy the kits now. Steel prices might be much higher then.
--
Courage is the power to let go of the familiar.
-- Raymond Lindquist
Don't know where this discussion is going or was. Do know how to cut a
lap on a router table. One in the picture is dovetailed (11 deg)/lap.
Does require extensive fixturing but can be cut to close tolerance.
Appreciate that lapping removes a lot of area but not depth and
therefore easy enough for the light duty of 110vac routers in router
tables. PIX: http://patwarner.com/images/dovetailed-lap.jpg
***************************************************************************=
**********************************
> >(...)
>
> >>> (Mind out of the gutter, Larry)
>
> >> Why? =A0All my friends are here!
>
> >Heh!
>
> >>> If the gates start sagging, I'll string them up with the cheapo
> >>> deluxe cable thingy you mentioned earlier.
>
> >> Yew mispeld "when".
>
> >My original fence gates were destroyed when my landscape contractor
> >left them open during a windstorm. (Man, wood sure shatters when you
> >slam it back and forth against stucco for only 8 hours.)
>
> How's your stucco? =A0=3D:0
>
> >The gates never sagged, though. This is remarkable, because the gates
> >were installed backwards so that the diagonal brace was in tension
> >rather than in compression.
>
> I absolutely hate seeing that...unless I'm hired to fix the gate, in
> which case I point it out.
>
> >So, I'm gonna try the flat laps without the diagonal brace and
> >we shall see. =A0The retrofit will be trivial WHEN these start
> >sagging.
>
> There ya go. Buy the kits now. Steel prices might be much higher then.
>
> --
> Courage is the power to let go of the familiar.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 -- Raymond Lindquist-=
Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
On 5/2/2010 7:40 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Sat, 01 May 2010 21:10:08 -0700, the infamous Winston
> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
(...)
>> My original fence gates were destroyed when my landscape contractor
>> left them open during a windstorm. (Man, wood sure shatters when you
>> slam it back and forth against stucco for only 8 hours.)
>
> How's your stucco? =:0
Luckily, the stucco looks good. Stout stuff!
I'm going to place a spacer to push the bottom gate hinges away
from the fence post by about 1". That'll make the gates self - closing.
Hopefully that'll limit damage next time.
>> The gates never sagged, though. This is remarkable, because the gates
>> were installed backwards so that the diagonal brace was in tension
>> rather than in compression.
>
> I absolutely hate seeing that...unless I'm hired to fix the gate, in
> which case I point it out.
Yeah! Those gates always struck me as odd, but I never could quite
put my finger on it. Sort of like watching people who walk with their
arms swinging in phase with their legs. Weird, (but why is that?)
>> So, I'm gonna try the flat laps without the diagonal brace and
>> we shall see. The retrofit will be trivial WHEN these start
>> sagging.
>
> There ya go. Buy the kits now. Steel prices might be much higher then.
Shouldn't exceed 5 shrimp per ton. :(
--Winston
On 5/2/2010 8:07 AM, routerman wrote:
> Don't know where this discussion is going or was.
It is all over the map. Larry hasn't called me a liberal yet, so
we still have some time to go.
> Do know how to cut a lap on a router table.
Never did, but I imagine it would be like an inverted - spindle
vertical mill. I ran out of room to store large, seldom - used
tools about a year ago. That is the only thing preventing me from
buying or building a table for my router.
I was *delighted* by the results I obtained using my little router
(3/4" deep in fir), so yesterday I bought a *manly* 1375 W router
and a couple 1" diameter cutters.
I realize this will be equivalent to mowing a lawn using scissors but
the handheld routing operation doesn't take long and the
results are *very much nicer* than anything else I've tried.
> One in the picture is dovetailed (11 deg)/lap.
> Does require extensive fixturing but can be cut to close tolerance.
That is even better looking than the step I routed using a couple
simple edge guides in my 2 x 4. Someone spent 'way more than I did
for lumber, too. (Sweet!)
> Appreciate that lapping removes a lot of area but not depth and
> therefore easy enough for the light duty of 110vac routers in router
> tables. PIX: http://patwarner.com/images/dovetailed-lap.jpg
Now where is that 'power tool lending library'?
Thanks!
--Winston
On 4/27/2010 4:18 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
> "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>>
>> The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way
>> through.
>>
>
> So, when you cut off a piece of pressure treated lumber, and only the first
> 1/4" or so is brown and the rest looks like regular wood (a little darker)
> what's the difference between the brown and the yellowish center?
I'm curious. You say "the first 1/4" or so is _brown_". Are you
talking about "brown treated lumber"? If so that 1/4" of brown is a
colorant, not the preservative. It's applied in a separate operation,
not under pressure.
On 4/27/2010 12:22 PM, Winston wrote:
> On 4/27/2010 8:39 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>> J. Clarke wrote:
>
> (...)
>
>>> Any PT I've cut up is the same color all the way through.
>>
>> None that I have ever cut was.
>
> I am So ConFused!
Don't trust either of us. Go down to Home Depot, get a green pressure
treated 4x4, cut it in half, see what the inside looks like.
On 4/27/2010 12:56 PM, Winston wrote:
> On 4/27/2010 8:42 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Winston wrote:
>>> On 4/27/2010 8:06 AM, Mike Paulsen wrote:
>>
>>>> SuperWoodworker might double up 1x4s rather than cutting lap joints
>>>> in 2x4s, depending on the application.
>>>
>>> Great idea but 2 x 4 was the smallest PT lumber I could find.
>>>
>>> As dpb says, grain orientation would prevent the joint from being
>>> structurally sound anyway, so perhaps a steel frame or maybe
>>> some "L" StrongTie joints.
>>>
>>
>> Just be careful how far you take principles. Sure - a cross grain
>> joint is
>> inherently inferior to a joint where the grain runs in the same
>> direction -
>> but will you ever notice that?
>
> From what you and dadiOH are saying, the glued and screwed cross grain
> corner lap joints will be sufficiently strong in a frame for a <4' wide
> fence gate.
>
> That's good enough for me, so I will try it out.
>
>> For centuries, cross grain joints have been
>> in use and have served very well. You can take the theory too far and get
>> all caught up in what you should not do. Net result - analysis paralysis.
>> You'll never build anything. The governing factor should be whether the
>> particular joint, or technique is sufficient for the task at hand, not
>> whether it is the best theoretical approach.A good guiding light is the
>> preponderance of evidence of eons of time. Ignore all the rest.
>
> OK, Thanks!
Suggestion--on any gate put in a diagonal brace. This can be a board, a
piece of wire, a threaded rod, or whatever else suits your fancy. With
a diagonal brace it's much much less likely to sag.
Also note that aliphatic resin glues like Titebond, while they are very
strong, tend to creep when subjected to continuous load.
On 4/27/2010 10:20 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> "Winston"<[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 4/27/2010 8:38 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>>> Winston wrote:
>>>> On 4/27/2010 5:07 AM, dadiOH wrote:
(...)
>>> Just adjust them so the centers (hub) are touching. You may have to
>>> rotate
>>> them so teeth of one are next to the gullets of the other, maybe not.
>>
>> Soon as the rain lets up I'll head to the hardware store
>> and pick up a couple blades.
>>
>> This should be good. :)
>>
>
> Let me make this really simple for you. Just cut the wood on your line.
> Move over and cut again. Repeat. Knock out the remaining standing pieces.
> Touch up with a chisel if you need. You're talking minutes of work here
> that does not require this amount of discussion. You can make more of a
> simple task than is really necessary...
Gotcha. Thanks.
--Winston
--
Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
On 4/27/2010 11:16 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
> On 4/27/2010 12:22 PM, Winston wrote:
>> On 4/27/2010 8:39 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>> (...)
>>
>>>> Any PT I've cut up is the same color all the way through.
>>>
>>> None that I have ever cut was.
>>
>> I am So ConFused!
>
> Don't trust either of us. Go down to Home Depot, get a green pressure
> treated 4x4, cut it in half, see what the inside looks like.
I have the PT 2 x 4 s and am sketching up the gate.
I am sure it will turn out fine and I thank you
guys for your thoughts.
--Winston
--
Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
On 4/27/2010 10:50 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> Winston wrote:
>> On 4/27/2010 8:57 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>>> Aliphatic ("yellow glue") may or not be OK...type one
>>> isn't good around water; type 2 is "water resisant" which should be
>>> fine; type 3 is waterproof.
>>
>> I will ask for 'type 3 aliphatic glue', yes?
>>
>> --Winston
>
> That or type 2. Not likely a clerk will know what you want if you ask for
> aliphatic glue though. The "type" thing is (I think) what Titebond calls
> them, get it or just read the label on other brands.
Gotcha. Waterproof wood glue and circ saw blades.
Thanks!
--Winston
On 4/27/2010 10:35 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> "Winston"<[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 4/27/2010 9:10 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>>> Winston wrote:
(...)
>> It does require careful sorting to find lumber that is halfway clear
>> and free of bark and chips, though.
>>
>
> Unfortunately - more true than it should be these days. Though - I doubt
> you are finding any bark on Home Depot wood. Bends and curves - sure, if
> you're looking in the wrong stacks, but no bark.
Perhaps I am mistaking the large dark rough deposits for bark.
Could be anything, I suppose.
>> Heh! The Home Depot lumber guy apparently didn't like me 'cherry picking'
>> his pile of 2 x 4's very much. (I put back my rejects neatly so I don't
>> understand his attitude.)
>>
>
> Home Depot does not care if you cherry pick one bit.
Not officially anyway. :)
> In fact - they want
> you to be happy with your purchase. Maybe you're looking through the wrong
> stacks, hoping to find what you shouldn't be expecting to find there. They
> have both junk wood and good wood. If you want good wood - then go to that
> stack and don't be talking about sorting through stacks. Sure - you'll
> still have to sort through some, but not like you're talking about.
I checked the whole lumber department. There was only one stack
of PT 2x4's and that was it.
> If you ever encounter an HD associate who you think is giving you an
> attitude about sorting through lumber, then take it to his manager.
I don't have time for that. His manager knows or he doesn't.
> But then again - that does not make for as good a story here, does it?
What are you implying, Mike?
>> I looked up after loading my cart and saw that he had closed the gates
>> on both ends of the aisle, caging me in. He re-appeared and asked if
>> I wanted out, so I told him 'Yes, unless you want to buy me lunch'!. :)
>
> You never considered what their policy is? Let me inform you... when they
> have to drop items from the overheads, they must block off the aisle they
> are working in as well as the adjacent aisle they are facing. They don't
> typically interrupt shopping that is underway, so while they may close off
> the aisle you're in, they don't impact your shopping in that aisle. Once
> you are done, they will carry on with what they need to do.
Policy had nothing to do with it. I was the only one in the entire aisle
for those few minutes. No forklift in view anywhere. No scaffold.
No employees. No other customers. Just one person. Me. Just one piece
of gear. My lumber cart. This getting any clearer, Mike?
>> On recommendation from the sales guy, I bought a couple boxes of
>> 'Primeguard Plus' square / phillips drive screws. They are
>> said to be good for outdoor use and to be compatible with
>> the chems in pressure treated lumber. I hope they will be
>> OK, because they drive like a dream, even into dry wood.
>>
>
> HD screws are *supposed* to be better now than they used to be, but I'm not
> so sure. I'd probably defer to the old stand-by's myself. McFeely has done
> well over time. HD did take a dive - at least for a while, with really bad
> imported screw-junk.
I bought the screws from a high-end lumber store, not HD.
I think they'll work OK.
--Winston
--
Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
On 4/27/2010 10:03 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 4/27/2010 9:30 AM, Winston wrote:
>
>> Larry, can I use regular wood glue to bond inner fibers of PT doug fir?
>> Would epoxy work better? Some other adhesive perhaps?
>
> Take this to the bank: use a "construction adhesive" that is formulated
> for pressure treated wood.
>
> One that immediately comes to mind, and should be easy to find at the
> BORG, is "Liquid Nails - Subfloor".
>
> Simply put, disregard anything else you read on this issue in this
> thread about gluing with other types of woodworking glues ...
Cool! Thanks!
Liquid Nails for Subflooring
Circ Saw blades
Chisel
--Winston
--
Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
On 4/27/2010 9:27 AM, dadiOH wrote:
(...)
> My garden gate frame is made of 2x6 PT lumber, half lap joints. It is
> sizeable, roughly 4' x 6'. It is 12 years old now, joints are fine. Just
> glued, no screws; not sure what glue I used but most likely Type 2 yellow.
OK now I'm feeling more confident.
> I don't recall what you are making, gate?
Yup. Two fence gates. Each about 44" wide by 60" tall.
> If so and it is sizeable and
> heavy your biggest potential problem is sag (2x4s aren't all that strong).
> A diagonal from the top outside corner to the bottom inside (hinge side)
> corner will help counter that. Ditto steel straps. See photo here...
> http://www.cornerhardware.com/howto/ht011.html
Mine will look very similar except that my frame will be thinner by 1"
since the 2x4s will lay flat against the covering fence boards just
like the gates these will replace.
> If it's a gate and you intend to attach boards to the frame, leave at least
> 1/8" between the boards; i.e., don't try to fit them together to make a
> solid wood surface. Reason is they will expand and contract and if they are
> chock-o-block one to another there is no room to expand.
Yup. My gaps will actually be much wider because I'm overlapping alternating
fence boards to imitate the look of a fence. Functional without beauty.
--Winston
--
Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
On 4/27/2010 10:06 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 4/27/2010 10:42 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>
>> Just be careful how far you take principles. Sure - a cross grain
>> joint is
>> inherently inferior to a joint where the grain runs in the same
>> direction -
>> but will you ever notice that? For centuries, cross grain joints have
>> been
>> in use and have served very well. You can take the theory too far and get
>> all caught up in what you should not do. Net result - analysis paralysis.
>> You'll never build anything. The governing factor should be whether the
>> particular joint, or technique is sufficient for the task at hand, not
>> whether it is the best theoretical approach. A good guiding light is the
>> preponderance of evidence of eons of time. Ignore all the rest.
>
> Bingo!!
>
Copy that.
--Winston
--
Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
On 4/27/2010 10:58 AM, whit3rd wrote:
> On Apr 26, 1:48 pm, [email protected] (Robert Bonomi) wrote:
>
> [on making a half-lap joint on board ends]
>
>> Skilsaw (or equivalent), cut across the 2x4 at the proper distance from
>> the end, then use the Neander approach -- wide wood chisel and a hammer
>> to 'split' in from the end.
>>
>> *WAY* less dust than the router will throw up.
>>
>> Of course, you've got to be able to chisel a flat surface. for the lap.
>>
>> To reduce the effort of Neandering, do a -series- of parallel custs with
>> the Skilsaw, then break the 'fingers' off, and clean up with the chisel.
>
> YES! This is the least energy approach, works with the wood grain to
> produce the desired shape with simple saw cuts and very quick chisel
> work.
> A plane or rabbet plane would easily clean up the split face, if
> that's
> not acceptable straight from the chisel.
>
> The cut or cuts are shallow, and a thin kerf blade is appropriate.
> Gang the
> boards together and make a Skilsaw (handheld circular saw) kerf on a
> half dozen at a time. When those are all done, remove the dust mask.
> True neanders will have a miter saw with depth stops, in handheld
> back saw style. That will work, too.
Grok that. Thanks!
--Winston
--
Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
On 4/27/2010 11:19 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
(...)
> Suggestion--on any gate put in a diagonal brace. This can be a board, a
> piece of wire, a threaded rod, or whatever else suits your fancy. With a
> diagonal brace it's much much less likely to sag.
Yup! The gates I'm replacing have those diagonal braces and I will also
incorporate diagonal braces in the new gates.
> Also note that aliphatic resin glues like Titebond, while they are very
> strong, tend to creep when subjected to continuous load.
The construction adhesive products in caulking tubes have treated me very
well so that is what I will use.
Thanks!
--Winston
--
Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
On 4/27/2010 2:07 PM, Hoosierpopi wrote:
>
>>
>> What would SuperWoodworker do?
>>
> Typically what would be done on site by an experienced framing crew
> would be a circular saw to make multiple, close together shoulder cuts
> at the proper depth, and a chisel to finish chopping the residue of
> these cuts out.
>
> If you have a BS, you could use that too as well. I've done it on a
> TS, RAS and (as another mentioned) with a skill saw.
>
> If you are removing 3/4" x 3.5" x 3.5" of wood, the router approach
> would be better to clean up the lap after one of the aother approaches
> was used to HOG OUT the majority of the lap.
Yup. That is the current plan.
I'm leaving a temporary 1" island on the end of the board to
support the router.
I think it will work just fine.
--Winston <-- The noob thanks you.
--
Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
On 4/27/2010 3:15 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Winston wrote:
>> On 4/27/2010 10:35 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>
>>> If you ever encounter an HD associate who you think is giving you an
>>> attitude about sorting through lumber, then take it to his manager.
>>
>> I don't have time for that. His manager knows or he doesn't.
>
> Yeahbut you just propogate the problem if you don't raise the point.
Nonsense.
>>> But then again - that does not make for as good a story here, does
>>> it?
>>
>> What are you implying, Mike?
>
> Implying? Hell, I never imply. It's just one of my tongue in cheek ways of
> saying "Oh come on, now..."
You weren't there. I was. That's how it went down. What's the big deal?
It was just a harmless practical joke. No big deal.
>>>> I looked up after loading my cart and saw that he had closed the
>>>> gates on both ends of the aisle, caging me in. He re-appeared and
>>>> asked if I wanted out, so I told him 'Yes, unless you want to buy me
>>>> lunch'!. :)
>>>
>>> You never considered what their policy is? Let me inform you...
>>> when they have to drop items from the overheads, they must block off
>>> the aisle they are working in as well as the adjacent aisle they are
>>> facing. They don't typically interrupt shopping that is underway,
>>> so while they may close off the aisle you're in, they don't impact
>>> your shopping in that aisle. Once you are done, they will carry on
>>> with what they need to do.
>>
>> Policy had nothing to do with it. I was the only one in the entire
>> aisle for those few minutes. No forklift in view anywhere. No
>> scaffold. No employees. No other customers. Just one person. Me. Just one
>> piece
>> of gear. My lumber cart. This getting any clearer, Mike?
>
> So - did I misunderstand?
Apparently so. There doesn't appear to be a way
to make it the concept clear to you.
I thought you said they barracaded you in.
Yes, that is what I said. I was the only one in the aisle. There was
only one person there. That was yours truly. If there had been two
people there and one left, that is the number we are talking about.
One more than zero and one less than two. Only one. A single unit of
measure. That was me and my lumber cart. That was it.
> Can't
> imagine why they would do that unless they were getting ready to drop
> something from overhead.
Yes. There was no reason except to harass. People do that all the time.
I don't understand why you can't get your mind around the concept,
apparently.
> Like I said - if they were going to drop an item
> in the adjacent aisle, they would have barracaded off the aisle you were in
> also.
Nonsense. They only barricade the affected aisle when they are stocking.
> Then they would simply have waited for you to finish up and leave the
> aisle before they could proceed. It's common to find barriers left up after
> they are done, but that would keep you from entering, not close you in as I
> thought you said.
That is what I said and said and said. Let's not waste any more bandwidth.
--Winston
--
Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
On 4/27/2010 3:38 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> RE: Subject
>
> A circular saw and a chisel followed by a flat bastard file gets the
> joint made.
>
> Assemble with some laminating epoxy thickened with micro-balloons and
> clamp lightly to hold while epoxy "kicks".
>
> Enjoy a cold beer while observing your craftsmanship and watching
> epoxy kick.
OK. Thanks Lew.
--Winston
--
Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
On 4/27/2010 5:39 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 06:06:01 -0700, the infamous Winston
> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
(...)
>> That'll be the thing I learned today. Thanks!
>
> Or not. I'd love to see a cutoff from the middle of a PT 4x4 from Mr.
> Clarke. I've never seen PT injected more than about 1/2", and that was
> with a vacuum/pressure treating chamber and steel knife incised on 2
> sides.
Just now I cut off one of my HD pressure treated 2 x 4s,
about 6" from one end and made a color scan of the
cross section. I can send a jpg if you would like, anyone
(well almost anyone). Beware, it is 2.8 MB.
Be sitting down before you look at the picture because you
will laugh your ass off.
:)
--Winston
--
Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
On 4/27/2010 8:26 PM, Winston wrote:
> Just now I cut off one of my HD pressure treated 2 x 4s,
> about 6" from one end and made a color scan of the
> cross section. I can send a jpg if you would like, anyone
> (well almost anyone). Beware, it is 2.8 MB.
>
> Be sitting down before you look at the picture because you
> will laugh your ass off.
I'd appreciate a look. My e-mail address is valid (and I can always use
a good laugh).
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
On 4/27/2010 6:07 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 07:30:31 -0700, the infamous Winston
> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
(...)
>> Larry, can I use regular wood glue to bond inner fibers of PT doug fir?
>> Would epoxy work better? Some other adhesive perhaps?
>
> Galvanized bolts work better unless you let the wood dry really well
> first, and that means it'll warp before you get it up. :(
>
> What's this for, again?
Two fence gates. Each are about 44" wide by 60" tall, overall.
The frame will be somewhat shorter.
>>> That's why I keep 2 colors of dye/preservative in my truck. I have to
>>> daub it on the cut ends of PT lumber when I'm done so it matches and
>>> is protected from bugs and moisture. http://fwd4.me/EMu brown (most
>>> used) and http://fwd4.me/EMy (green) are what I've found locally.
>>
>> Yup, I have a can of 'environmentally friendly' sealant for cut ends.
>> It seems to work because I saw no deterioration in some diagonally cut
>> 4 x 4 s that lived in the sun and rain for a decade.
>
> What's environmentally friendly about mold/mildewcide and termiticide,
> I wonder?
Dunno. Stuff works apparently. That's good enough for me.
>>> I've been using the epoxy coated deck screws, but find that upon
>>> removal, half the epoxy is rubbed off. I'm in the process of
>>> converting my stock to galv once again. I want my hard work to
>>> outlast me. Square drive is definitely the best answer, too, with
>>> combo (pozi and square) the next best thing. TORX is quite good, as
>>> well, but square is my fave.
>>
>> Ya got that right! I tested my first square drive fasteners in lumber
>> a couple days ago. Absolutely *no* cam-out, even with a 2-1/2" long
>> screw into dry wood. Solid, Jackson.
>
> That's the way things should work.
I liiike.
--Winston
--
Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
On 4/27/2010 9:26 PM, Winston wrote:
> On 4/27/2010 5:39 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 06:06:01 -0700, the infamous Winston
>> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>
> (...)
>
>>> That'll be the thing I learned today. Thanks!
>>
>> Or not. I'd love to see a cutoff from the middle of a PT 4x4 from Mr.
>> Clarke. I've never seen PT injected more than about 1/2", and that was
>> with a vacuum/pressure treating chamber and steel knife incised on 2
>> sides.
>
> Just now I cut off one of my HD pressure treated 2 x 4s,
> about 6" from one end and made a color scan of the
> cross section. I can send a jpg if you would like, anyone
> (well almost anyone). Beware, it is 2.8 MB.
>
> Be sitting down before you look at the picture because you
> will laugh your ass off.
Just put it up on flickr--an account is free.
> --Winston
On 4/27/2010 9:40 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
> "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> On 4/27/2010 4:18 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
>>> "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote in
>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way
>>>> through.
>>>>
>>>
>>> So, when you cut off a piece of pressure treated lumber, and only the
>>> first 1/4" or so is brown and the rest looks like regular wood (a
>>> little darker) what's the difference between the brown and the
>>> yellowish center?
>>
>> I'm curious. You say "the first 1/4" or so is _brown_". Are you
>> talking about "brown treated lumber"? If so that 1/4" of brown is a
>> colorant, not the preservative. It's applied in a separate operation,
>> not under pressure.
>>
>
> Most of the treated lumber I've seen and recognized is brown, but I do
> have a piece that's yellow with a greenish hue to it. I have not cut the
> yellow piece, so I don't know if it changes colors (tints) partway
> through.
I'm curious as to the treatment--almost all pressure treating of
construction lumber involves copper compounds and almost all copper
compounds are green. Brown pressure treat would usually be creosote,
which would go in railroad ties, marine pilings, and a few other uses.
The stuff is sticky and has a distinctive odor and is generally not used
for light construction.
> It's entirely possible that there's 4-5 different treatment methods "in
> the wild" now and some are the partial treatment using a brown chemical
> while others actually penetrate the entire piece.
If it's "partial treatment" it's crap. The dark brown treatment is a
coloring for deck lumber and other uses where the lumber will not be
painted and is in addition to the preservative--it's no more a
preservative itself than an application of Minwax is a preservative, it
just goes deeper so won't go away the first time you clean the deck with
a pressure washer. The only brown preservative in common use is ACQ-D
IIRC, and it's a light brown, not dark.
> After all, why do more than necessary? If someone's buying a 4x4 post to
> sit on the ground for landscaping and the thinner treatment stops most
> everything from getting in, why worry about the core?
Does your lumberyard stock two kinds of pressure treated lumber, one to
"sit on the ground" and the other to be cut up to make decks and the
like with through-holes for fasteners?
In any case, lumber rated for ground contact generally has a heavier
treatment than lumber not intended for ground contact.
On 4/27/2010 6:36 PM, Morris Dovey wrote:
> On 4/27/2010 8:26 PM, Winston wrote:
>
>> Just now I cut off one of my HD pressure treated 2 x 4s,
>> about 6" from one end and made a color scan of the
>> cross section. I can send a jpg if you would like, anyone
>> (well almost anyone). Beware, it is 2.8 MB.
>>
>> Be sitting down before you look at the picture because you
>> will laugh your ass off.
>
> I'd appreciate a look. My e-mail address is valid (and I can always use
> a good laugh).
Hokay, Morris.
Watch your inbox.
--Winston
On 4/27/2010 6:47 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
(...)
>> On recommendation from the sales guy, I bought a couple boxes of
>> 'Primeguard Plus' square / phillips drive screws. They are
>> said to be good for outdoor use and to be compatible with
>> the chems in pressure treated lumber. I hope they will be
>> OK, because they drive like a dream, even into dry wood.
>
> Yeah, those are the epoxy coated screws I complained about.
> I haven't seen any failures in PT wood yet, including the old CCA
> treated stuff, but I will be moving entirely into galv once again as
> soon as my 25 lbs of Primeguard is gone. If you drive one in and have
> to remove it for any reason, discard it and put a new one in, though.
> You'll see bare steel there, the reason you discard it.
OK. Thanks, Larry
--Winston
On 4/27/2010 7:04 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 14:19:44 -0400, the infamous "J. Clarke"
> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>
>
>> Suggestion--on any gate put in a diagonal brace. This can be a board, a
>> piece of wire, a threaded rod, or whatever else suits your fancy. With
>> a diagonal brace it's much much less likely to sag.
>>
>> Also note that aliphatic resin glues like Titebond, while they are very
>> strong, tend to creep when subjected to continuous load.
>
> That's an excellent suggestion.
>
> ACE Hardware sells a gate brace kit with a length of wire rope, a pair
> of angle bracket ends, screws, and a turnbuckle for $15. They're well
> worth it and out-perform z bracing by tenfold.
Yeahbut.
I wanna do it myself!
:)
--Winston
"Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nadaspam*@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Larry Jaques" wrote
>>
>> ACE Hardware sells a gate brace kit with a length of wire rope, a pair
>> of angle bracket ends, screws, and a turnbuckle for $15. They're well
>> worth it and out-perform z bracing by tenfold.
>>
> I have cable swaging gear so I have made a lot of these over the years.
> One advantage of the turnbuckle approach is that you can adjust it over
> the years. No gate will stay the same over the years. But with an
> adjustable brace, you can keep it square and true.
>
>
>
My experience is they won't stay the same over the first rainy season.
On 4/27/2010 9:11 PM, Rumple Stiltskin wrote:
> "Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nadaspam*@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Larry Jaques" wrote
>>>
>>> ACE Hardware sells a gate brace kit with a length of wire rope, a pair
>>> of angle bracket ends, screws, and a turnbuckle for $15. They're well
>>> worth it and out-perform z bracing by tenfold.
>>>
>> I have cable swaging gear so I have made a lot of these over the
>> years. One advantage of the turnbuckle approach is that you can adjust
>> it over the years. No gate will stay the same over the years. But with
>> an adjustable brace, you can keep it square and true.
>>
> My experience is they won't stay the same over the first rainy season.
Thanks for the info, guys.
I am satisfied that the diagonal 2x4 brace will be more than sufficient.
At least that was the case with the gates that are currently in place.
--Winston
On 4/27/2010 9:17 PM, Morris Dovey wrote:
> On 4/27/2010 9:58 PM, Winston wrote:
>
>> Watch your inbox.
>
> Thank you. I can't really tell how much is protected.
Exactly.
> If ugly will do
> the job, then that stick should last forever!
That was one of the very few *good* looking pieces
that I selected out of the HD stack.
Oh Well. It just has to work structurally.
Thanks.
--Winston
Winston wrote:
> On 4/27/2010 3:15 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> I thought you said they barracaded you in.
>
> Yes, that is what I said.
>> Can't imagine why they would do that unless they were getting ready to drop
>> something from overhead.
> Yes. There was no reason except to harass. People do that all the time.
Thats scary...
> I don't understand why you can't get your mind around the concept,
> apparently.
Mike knows workers at HD don't care if you cherry pick lumber, and he
knows they barricade aisles when they will get fired if they don't, not
to bother customers, which will get them fired if they do...
Anyway, my opinion on all this is you should, just on general
principles, figure out how to set up and use your BS to make these half
lap joints.
You could have trouble with a gate made from PT lumber unless it is high
quality lumber, but even then, PT lumber is treated while green, and
when it dries out, all sorts of nasty stuff can happen, usually it warps
or cracks where prevented from warping. You can get high quality PT
lumber, I've seen it in outdoor furniture, but I never saw it available
locally at the borgs. Having said that, I made my gate out of PT years
ago, and it is fine, but care and experience and some luck is needed in
cherry picking the lumber.
Lastly, don't use wood glue like white, yellow and so on, use high
quality construction adhesive as it will fill the rough joints made with
BS or circular saw, and remain somewhat flexible and less susceptible to
seasonal movements particularly in cross grain of a lap joint, and is
weather proof.
--
Jack
You Can't Fix Stupid, but You Can Vote it Out!
http://jbstein.com
On 4/28/2010 4:22 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Winston wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the info, guys.
>>
>> I am satisfied that the diagonal 2x4 brace will be more than
>> sufficient. At least that was the case with the gates that are
>> currently in place.
>> --Winston
>
> Likely will. For a different look and feel, there is always the option of
> corner bracing - not gussets, but bracing that fits within the door frame
> itself, but rather than running diagonally corner to corner, just short
> pieces in each corner. All a matter of personal taste.
Yup. That's the effect I was aiming for with the glued and screwed
lap joints in the corners.
At one point, I had this fantasy of not using a diagonal brace,
reasoning that the weight of the brace would probably be about the
same as it's relative support distribution in relation to the
effect of the corner lap joints. If you see what I mean.
(Lucky You!) :)
--Winston
--
Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
On 4/28/2010 5:41 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 20:03:55 -0700, the infamous Winston
> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>
>> On 4/27/2010 7:04 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>> On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 14:19:44 -0400, the infamous "J. Clarke"
>>> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Suggestion--on any gate put in a diagonal brace. This can be a board, a
>>>> piece of wire, a threaded rod, or whatever else suits your fancy. With
>>>> a diagonal brace it's much much less likely to sag.
>>>>
>>>> Also note that aliphatic resin glues like Titebond, while they are very
>>>> strong, tend to creep when subjected to continuous load.
>>>
>>> That's an excellent suggestion.
>>>
>>> ACE Hardware sells a gate brace kit with a length of wire rope, a pair
>>> of angle bracket ends, screws, and a turnbuckle for $15. They're well
>>> worth it and out-perform z bracing by tenfold.
>>
>> Yeahbut.
>>
>> I wanna do it myself!
>>
>> :)
>
> OK, and then do it again when the latch bolt doesn't line up any more
> in the spring, and again in the fall, and twice next year, too. I
> prefer a 30 second fix, myself. YMMV
You are doubtlessly right, Larry. (It's 'highlight then CTRL-C')
I would like something that looks as if I intended it as part of
the design in the first place, rather than something that is
effective but looks like 'just another Winston bodge'.
I would even go for some diagonal 1/4" threaded rod
with a turnbuckle feature in the middle.
I must ponder.
--Winston
--
Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
On 4/28/2010 8:11 AM, Tom B wrote:
>
>
> "Winston" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> <snipped>
>>
>> So next, I will try J. Clarke's suggestion because that sounds like it
>> would give me a good chance at a flat face surface, quickly.
>> I can afford to 'notch' the material then slice off the end if necessary.
>> Raw material is cheap. Time and talent are all but nonexistent here.
>>
>> Thank you for your help, guys.
>>
>> --Winston
>>
> That is what I'd do in your shoes... a flatter bottom and if your
> routing guide is clamped square to the pieces, a nice fit. Make a couple
> practice cuts to achieve the proper depth to wind up with both pieces
> (joined) on the same plane.
> Be aware cross grain joints don't do well with glue alone over time...
> peg, dowel, or screw them as well.
Copy that, Tom.
I've tried lateral cuts with the skilsaw, chipping and chiseling.
My second attempt looked a *lot* better than my first attempt.
Neither gave me the great looking step provided by the router.
Each attempt took about the same amount of time so it's an
easy decision even though the router approach is noisier
and messier.
I will have at least two wood screws through each glued lap
in the corners so I'm pretty confident that will be sufficient.
As Larry says, I would be well advised to provide some kind
of enhanced diagonal support, like aircraft wire to address sag.
I am still pondering how to make that brace look a little less
clumsy than they normally do. Perhaps I will epoxy a couple
1/4-20 standoffs inside some 1/2" steel tube and then paint it
thoroughly.
Hmm.
Thanks!
--Winston
--
Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
On 4/28/2010 10:16 AM, Tom B wrote:
> Braggart! <GD&R> I wish I had your abilities!
It's not much a matter of abilities - I really wanted an accurate
joinery machine to compensate for my _lack_ of abilities.
It was a matter of making drawings (a lot of drawings) until I had a
design that, if I could build it, would be inexpensive and do what I
wanted. That took a while...
One of the things that no one seems to notice is that there are
relatively few critical dimensions in the wooden parts. :)
Even so, by the time I was done I'd made all of the wooden parts _at_
_least_ three times before I had 'em right...
The motors and electronics, and the controller software were all off the
shelf - the results of _other_ peoples' abilities.
The only thing I can really brag about is sticking with the project
until it was done (I _almost_ didn't).
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
On 4/28/2010 8:49 AM, Morris Dovey wrote:
(...)
> The only thing I can really brag about is sticking with the project
> until it was done (I _almost_ didn't).
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/JBot/
I didn't see a BOM, dimensioned drawings and assembly /setup
instructions for your JBot, Morris.
You are selling the CD with all this on it for $24.95, yes?
A 'wood parts' kit for $129.95?
Full mechanicals kit, minus the motors and electronics for $449.95?
Link? <G>
--Winston <-- Subtle, very subtle
On 4/28/2010 11:09 AM, Winston wrote:
> On 4/28/2010 8:49 AM, Morris Dovey wrote:
>
> (...)
>
>> The only thing I can really brag about is sticking with the project
>> until it was done (I _almost_ didn't).
>
> http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/JBot/
>
> I didn't see a BOM, dimensioned drawings and assembly /setup
> instructions for your JBot, Morris.
Drawings were posted to ABPW as soon as the design was finalized, and
photos were posted to my web site as each part was made and installed.
What you see on the web site today are just a few of those photos.
> You are selling the CD with all this on it for $24.95, yes?
> A 'wood parts' kit for $129.95?
> Full mechanicals kit, minus the motors and electronics for $449.95?
>
> Link? <G>
>
> --Winston <-- Subtle, very subtle
At one time I'd entertained the notion of selling the machines RTA, but
was put to rights about issues like liability and warranty requirements
by the folks here. I decided that it was in my best interest, and in
some customers' best interests, to not sell whirly-sharp machines.
If you prefer to buy one, there are a number of similarly-sized, if
somewhat less capable, machines on the market. Check at Sears or Rockler.
I think there are plans (and probably complete kits) available from some
of the folks over on http://www.cnczone.com
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
J. Clarke wrote:
> On 4/27/2010 8:19 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>> The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way
>>> through.
>>
>> Nope. Either that or you can get better PT than I can. There are also
>> different strengths of PT; eg, ground contact, direct burial, etc.
>>
>> I have always heard - and agree - that if you cut a piece of PT the
>> resultant raw wood should receive an application of a fungicide. I
>> always
>> do so with Cuprinol.
>
> Any PT I've cut up is the same color all the way through. Yes, there
> are different grades but that is due to different formulation and
> concentration of the treating bath and to different treating techniques,
> not to different degrees of penetration.
J. Clark is right. Here are 3 pictures of wolmanized 2x4 and a 2x6 I
had laying around my shop. These are above ground pieces, not rated for
below ground use and whether the pictures show it well or not, I can
tell you the treatment is all the way through. The 3rd one shows the
heart wood is a different color but the treatment is throughout, and not
just he first 1/4".
This is standard wolmanized lumber, can't say where I bought it but
probably 84 lumber, a lumber yard.
http://jbstein.com/Flick/Wolman1.jpg
http://jbstein.com/Flick/Wolman2.jpg
http://jbstein.com/Flick/Wolman3.jpg
> If it's dimension lumber and it's not the same color all the way through
> (leaving aside heartwood vs sapwood) then it's crappy treatment and you
> should return it and demand a replacement that has been properly
> treated. Heavy pilings sometimes don't get quite that degree of
> uniformity but even there most of the sapwood should be penetrated.
I'm pretty sure PT wood must be green when treated. If it is dry, the
treatment won't penetrate as it is some sort of hygroscopic hocus pocus
that is going on?
--
Jack
News Flash: Government Motors fines their top competitor $16 Mil.
http://jbstein.com
On 4/28/2010 9:57 AM, Morris Dovey wrote:
(...)
> If you prefer to buy one, there are a number of similarly-sized, if
> somewhat less capable, machines on the market. Check at Sears or Rockler.
>
> I think there are plans (and probably complete kits) available from some
> of the folks over on http://www.cnczone.com
OK, Thanks Morris!
--Winston
On 4/28/2010 9:30 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
(...)
> Be very careful of Morris. He can be evil from time to time. He enjoys
> making people drool and fanticize. He turns out all this stuff and then
> suggest that you could do this too. There's a couple of guys like that
> here. Evil - they can be very evil...
Naaah.
He's just leaving some money on the table.
That ain't evil, exactly.
--Winston
On 4/28/2010 11:11 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
(...)
> J. Clark is right. Here are 3 pictures of wolmanized 2x4 and a 2x6 I had
> laying around my shop. These are above ground pieces, not rated for
> below ground use and whether the pictures show it well or not, I can
> tell you the treatment is all the way through. The 3rd one shows the
> heart wood is a different color but the treatment is throughout, and not
> just he first 1/4".
>
> This is standard wolmanized lumber, can't say where I bought it but
> probably 84 lumber, a lumber yard.
>
> http://jbstein.com/Flick/Wolman1.jpg
> http://jbstein.com/Flick/Wolman2.jpg
> http://jbstein.com/Flick/Wolman3.jpg
What pretty lumber you have there!
That doesn't look anything like the bargain basement
sticks I'm working with.
--Winston
On 4/28/2010 9:36 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Winston wrote:
>
>>
>> I've tried lateral cuts with the skilsaw, chipping and chiseling.
>> My second attempt looked a *lot* better than my first attempt.
>
> It's a practice makes perfect sort of thing, but fortunately - not much
> practice. Close to perfect is good enough.
The routered steps are as close as I'm gonna get to 'good enough'.
Chipping and chiseling are laudable talents but they are not
very high on my list of things that I need to master.
(...)
> I still use the saw kerf, chip, chissel method if I'm away from my table
> saw, simply because it works. But... if I'm near my table saw, I fire up
> the router (mounted under one of the wings) and do a much cleaner and
> probably faster job, with it.
One supposes that a dado blade in your table saw would be
the best WRT quality and speed.
(...)
> Or... maybe fab a hollow core wood brace cover to go over the aircraft wire
> tensioner. Easily removable of course, so you can adjust if necessary. The
> wood brace would be purely decorative.
I can't lose the mental image of the stuff that is likely
to crawl out from underneath that cover after a couple years
in the side yard. Spiders! Slugs! Centipedes! Managers!
I've been bitten by two of those and I'm not anxious to repeat the experience.
:)
--Winston
On 4/28/2010 6:37 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
(Thoughtful reference to unfortunately wasted bandwidth deleted).
> Anyway, my opinion on all this is you should, just on general
> principles, figure out how to set up and use your BS to make these half
> lap joints.
You are right of course.
My bandsaw however is very cheaply made.
With extensive tuning and tweaking, it still refuses to cut straight.
I've used *good* band saws that do cut straight. This ain't one of them.
Of course it didn't cost like a real band saw does either. :)
> You could have trouble with a gate made from PT lumber unless it is high
> quality lumber, but even then, PT lumber is treated while green, and
> when it dries out, all sorts of nasty stuff can happen, usually it warps
> or cracks where prevented from warping. You can get high quality PT
> lumber, I've seen it in outdoor furniture, but I never saw it available
> locally at the borgs. Having said that, I made my gate out of PT years
> ago, and it is fine, but care and experience and some luck is needed in
> cherry picking the lumber.
Waddaya gonna do. I repaired a back yard fence a few years ago.
Used redwood 1 x 4 as a top rail. Most of it still looks pretty good
but there is one end that just levitated off its post. Nasty looking
even after reattachment with more competent screws.
Apparently I "can't get there from here"!
We shall see how this turns out. Honestly, these gates only have
to last a few years until I can get around to replacing the concrete in
the affected side yard. Then I will weld up something with box tube.
That stuff almost never warps, checks or cracks. :)
> Lastly, don't use wood glue like white, yellow and so on, use high
> quality construction adhesive as it will fill the rough joints made with
> BS or circular saw, and remain somewhat flexible and less susceptible to
> seasonal movements particularly in cross grain of a lap joint, and is
> weather proof.
Good. I will 'stick' with the subfloor construction adhesive Swingman
suggested and clamp the daylights out of it.
Thanks, Jack
--Winston
--
Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
On 4/28/2010 10:33 AM, Winston wrote:
> On 4/28/2010 5:41 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 20:03:55 -0700, the infamous Winston
>> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>>
>>> On 4/27/2010 7:04 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 14:19:44 -0400, the infamous "J. Clarke"
>>>> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Suggestion--on any gate put in a diagonal brace. This can be a
>>>>> board, a
>>>>> piece of wire, a threaded rod, or whatever else suits your fancy. With
>>>>> a diagonal brace it's much much less likely to sag.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also note that aliphatic resin glues like Titebond, while they are
>>>>> very
>>>>> strong, tend to creep when subjected to continuous load.
>>>>
>>>> That's an excellent suggestion.
>>>>
>>>> ACE Hardware sells a gate brace kit with a length of wire rope, a pair
>>>> of angle bracket ends, screws, and a turnbuckle for $15. They're well
>>>> worth it and out-perform z bracing by tenfold.
>>>
>>> Yeahbut.
>>>
>>> I wanna do it myself!
>>>
>>> :)
>>
>> OK, and then do it again when the latch bolt doesn't line up any more
>> in the spring, and again in the fall, and twice next year, too. I
>> prefer a 30 second fix, myself. YMMV
>
> You are doubtlessly right, Larry. (It's 'highlight then CTRL-C')
>
> I would like something that looks as if I intended it as part of
> the design in the first place, rather than something that is
> effective but looks like 'just another Winston bodge'.
>
> I would even go for some diagonal 1/4" threaded rod
> with a turnbuckle feature in the middle.
>
> I must ponder.
One option is to have a sailboat shop or an airframe mechanic make you
up a couple of lengths of rigging cable with swaged studs on each end,
making sure one of them is a left hand thread to take a turnbuckle. Not
gonna be cheap, but nobody's going to think it's a "bodge".
Or if you _gotta_ do it yourself get some stainless cable and Norseman
fittings (they make a left hand stud but good luck actually finding one
in stock anywhere).
On 4/28/2010 3:48 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
(...)
> One option is to have a sailboat shop or an airframe mechanic make you
> up a couple of lengths of rigging cable with swaged studs on each end,
> making sure one of them is a left hand thread to take a turnbuckle. Not
> gonna be cheap, but nobody's going to think it's a "bodge".
>
> Or if you _gotta_ do it yourself get some stainless cable and Norseman
> fittings (they make a left hand stud but good luck actually finding one
> in stock anywhere).
I did a little research using your key phrases and
stumbled across this Beautiful Thing:
http://www.prescable.com/top_hat.htm
I would need to fabricate a couple plates to distribute the
end stress over say 2 in^2 but that assembly appeals to me
greatly. I will be seated when I am told the price.
Oh Boy!
--Winston
On 4/28/2010 5:06 PM, Lee Michaels wrote:
> "J. Clarke" wrote
>>
>> One option is to have a sailboat shop or an airframe mechanic make you up
>> a couple of lengths of rigging cable with swaged studs on each end, making
>> sure one of them is a left hand thread to take a turnbuckle. Not gonna be
>> cheap, but nobody's going to think it's a "bodge".
>>
>> Or if you _gotta_ do it yourself get some stainless cable and Norseman
>> fittings (they make a left hand stud but good luck actually finding one in
>> stock anywhere).
>>
> I used to make gym equipment and bought a swaging tool and cable cutters. I
> have since used them many times to make all sorts of things.
(Snip interesting application data)
What do you think of this assembly, if I carefully avoided
stress risers on the ends?
http://www.prescable.com/top_hat.htm
It doesn't look cheep but if it was reasonably priced, I would be
able to justify the cost of the ferrule crimpers.
--Winston
On 4/28/2010 8:22 PM, Lee Michaels wrote:
> "Winston" wrote ...
(...)
>> What do you think of this assembly, if I carefully avoided
>> stress risers on the ends?
>>
>> http://www.prescable.com/top_hat.htm
>>
>> It doesn't look cheep but if it was reasonably priced, I would be
>> able to justify the cost of the ferrule crimpers.
>>
> That is way over my head. I just used eyebolts, cable and turrnbuckles.
> They don't cost that much. I assume you are talking about a gate brace.
Yup. Something a little more attractive (or less visible)
than the standard eyebolt-cable-turnbuckle combo.
> If you are talking about that fancy cab;e fence, that is a whole other
> thing. That gets into high end fabrication, hardware, etc.
Oh no! I'm still talking 2x4s and fence boards. Nothing fancy.
--Winston
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Winston wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the info, guys.
>>
>> I am satisfied that the diagonal 2x4 brace will be more than
>> sufficient. At least that was the case with the gates that are
>> currently in place.
>> --Winston
>
> Likely will. For a different look and feel, there is always the option of
> corner bracing - not gussets, but bracing that fits within the door frame
> itself, but rather than running diagonally corner to corner, just short
> pieces in each corner. All a matter of personal taste.
>
This is all over a gate?? The corner kits they sell at the Borg work great!
No joints or glue required. Cut the stock to size and screw the corners to
it. Two of the corners come with hinges attached.
"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 20:03:55 -0700, the infamous Winston
> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>
>>On 4/27/2010 7:04 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>> On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 14:19:44 -0400, the infamous "J. Clarke"
>>> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Suggestion--on any gate put in a diagonal brace. This can be a board,
>>>> a
>>>> piece of wire, a threaded rod, or whatever else suits your fancy. With
>>>> a diagonal brace it's much much less likely to sag.
>>>>
>>>> Also note that aliphatic resin glues like Titebond, while they are very
>>>> strong, tend to creep when subjected to continuous load.
>>>
>>> That's an excellent suggestion.
>>>
>>> ACE Hardware sells a gate brace kit with a length of wire rope, a pair
>>> of angle bracket ends, screws, and a turnbuckle for $15. They're well
>>> worth it and out-perform z bracing by tenfold.
>>
>>Yeahbut.
>>
>>I wanna do it myself!
>>
>>:)
>
> OK, and then do it again when the latch bolt doesn't line up any more
> in the spring, and again in the fall, and twice next year, too. I
> prefer a 30 second fix, myself. YMMV
>
If the latch bolt no longer lines up, you just move the bolt end ... :-()
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 4/28/2010 10:33 AM, Winston wrote:
>> On 4/28/2010 5:41 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>> On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 20:03:55 -0700, the infamous Winston
>>> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>>>
>>>> On 4/27/2010 7:04 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 14:19:44 -0400, the infamous "J. Clarke"
>>>>> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Suggestion--on any gate put in a diagonal brace. This can be a
>>>>>> board, a
>>>>>> piece of wire, a threaded rod, or whatever else suits your fancy.
>>>>>> With
>>>>>> a diagonal brace it's much much less likely to sag.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also note that aliphatic resin glues like Titebond, while they are
>>>>>> very
>>>>>> strong, tend to creep when subjected to continuous load.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's an excellent suggestion.
>>>>>
>>>>> ACE Hardware sells a gate brace kit with a length of wire rope, a pair
>>>>> of angle bracket ends, screws, and a turnbuckle for $15. They're well
>>>>> worth it and out-perform z bracing by tenfold.
>>>>
>>>> Yeahbut.
>>>>
>>>> I wanna do it myself!
>>>>
>>>> :)
>>>
>>> OK, and then do it again when the latch bolt doesn't line up any more
>>> in the spring, and again in the fall, and twice next year, too. I
>>> prefer a 30 second fix, myself. YMMV
>>
>> You are doubtlessly right, Larry. (It's 'highlight then CTRL-C')
>>
>> I would like something that looks as if I intended it as part of
>> the design in the first place, rather than something that is
>> effective but looks like 'just another Winston bodge'.
>>
>> I would even go for some diagonal 1/4" threaded rod
>> with a turnbuckle feature in the middle.
>>
>> I must ponder.
>
> One option is to have a sailboat shop or an airframe mechanic make you up
> a couple of lengths of rigging cable with swaged studs on each end, making
> sure one of them is a left hand thread to take a turnbuckle. Not gonna be
> cheap, but nobody's going to think it's a "bodge".
>
> Or if you _gotta_ do it yourself get some stainless cable and Norseman
> fittings (they make a left hand stud but good luck actually finding one in
> stock anywhere).
>
>
>
>
>
Serious Overkill!! LOL!!
On 4/29/2010 1:24 AM, Rumple Stiltskin wrote:
(...)
> This is all over a gate??
No! It's about two gates.
> The corner kits they sell at the Borg work
> great! No joints or glue required. Cut the stock to size and screw the
> corners to it. Two of the corners come with hinges attached.
168 smackers for a few bits of galvanize for both sides?
I think I can do better than that.
Besides "I wanna do it myself!"
:)
--Winston
On 4/29/2010 1:27 AM, Rumple Stiltskin wrote:
> "Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
(...)
>> OK, and then do it again when the latch bolt doesn't line up any more
>> in the spring, and again in the fall, and twice next year, too. I
>> prefer a 30 second fix, myself. YMMV
>>
>
> If the latch bolt no longer lines up, you just move the bolt end ... :-()
That's what I've been doing, twice a year.
It sure tears up the verticals on the swinging end of the gates.
If I'm going to have something that is 'high maintenance', it should
be a *lot* more fun to play with than a fence gate.
--Winston
Winston wrote:
> On 4/28/2010 6:37 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
>
> (Thoughtful reference to unfortunately wasted bandwidth deleted).
>
>> Anyway, my opinion on all this is you should, just on general
>> principles, figure out how to set up and use your BS to make these half
>> lap joints.
>
> You are right of course.
> My bandsaw however is very cheaply made.
> With extensive tuning and tweaking, it still refuses to cut straight.
I don't have a cheap bandsaw, but it is old. My opinion, never having
used a cheap bandsaw mind you, is there is very little about a bs that
stops it from cutting "straight". If you can set the table at 90° to
the blade, and tension the blade enough so it is "taut" it should cut
"straight" Cutting an arc is more problematic as the guides on a
quality saw are better at this. Having said that, "straight" on a bs is
seldom parallel to the blade. Eventually, or always, a particular blade
will require cutting "straight" at an angle. This angle will change
from blade to blade, and cut to cut as it changes as the blade dulls. I
can't see anything about a band saw, cheap or expensive that prohibits
cutting straight?
> I've used *good* band saws that do cut straight. This ain't one of them.
> Of course it didn't cost like a real band saw does either. :)
I still think the main differences other than obvious stuff like depth
of cut and power is in ease of set up and maintaining set up. For
example, I can adjust my blade guide height while the saw is running,
you can't do that on all saws. At any rate, cutting straight I think is
more in technique and blade choice, but I've been wrong before...
> We shall see how this turns out. Honestly, these gates only have
> to last a few years until I can get around to replacing the concrete in
> the affected side yard. Then I will weld up something with box tube.
People tend to use PT wood where it's not needed. This includes me.
You could build the gate out of any wood you want, white pine for
example, and it would not rot for probably 50 to 100 years, maybe 1000
years with proper construction and surface treatment.
--
Jack
You only have the rights you are willing to fight for.
http://jbstein.com
On 4/29/2010 6:52 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
> Winston<[email protected]> wrote in news:hrc1j411m65
> @news7.newsguy.com:
>
> *snip*
>
>> --Winston<-- Uses drill press as paper punch.
>>
>
> How do you get around the ragged edge issue? I've thought about using the
> drill press a couple times when I had to punch a bunch of holes, but it
> seems to me the edges would all come out ragged and be easy to tear.
>
> I've never gotten around to sharpening a hollow tube and using that in the
> DP.
You got it! The cutter is like a miniature pilotless hole saw, conceptually.
Notice the internal angle used to create a knife edge around the
business end:
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/254162155/Hollow_Paper_Drills_for_Heidelberg_printing/showimage.html
http://img.directindustry.com/images_di/photo-g/paper-drill-bit-356008.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_drilling
https://officeequipmentmachineshop.com/display/13882/0/?gclid=CMrKuseMrKECFR5ciAodhXX-Eg
It goes without saying that you need to hold the paper down to the
table to prevent tearing.
--Winston
On 4/29/2010 7:22 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
> Winston wrote:
>> On 4/28/2010 6:37 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
>>
>> (Thoughtful reference to unfortunately wasted bandwidth deleted).
>>
>>> Anyway, my opinion on all this is you should, just on general
>>> principles, figure out how to set up and use your BS to make these half
>>> lap joints.
>>
>> You are right of course.
>> My bandsaw however is very cheaply made.
>> With extensive tuning and tweaking, it still refuses to cut straight.
>
> I don't have a cheap bandsaw, but it is old. My opinion, never having
> used a cheap bandsaw mind you, is there is very little about a bs that
> stops it from cutting "straight". If you can set the table at 90° to the
> blade, and tension the blade enough so it is "taut" it should cut
> "straight" Cutting an arc is more problematic as the guides on a quality
> saw are better at this. Having said that, "straight" on a bs is seldom
> parallel to the blade. Eventually, or always, a particular blade will
> require cutting "straight" at an angle.
This makes the miter fence useless and the rip fence moderately so.
> This angle will change from
> blade to blade, and cut to cut as it changes as the blade dulls. I can't
> see anything about a band saw, cheap or expensive that prohibits cutting
> straight?
I don't know enough about the physics to explain it efficiently.
Perhaps the blade guides in my saw need to be ground or replaced.
I can visualize how the set screw could indent each mushy guide,
preventing a worn guide from getting close enough to the side of
the blade. That would do it for sure!
Having said that, I had a horizontal / vertical band saw that used
the outside of ball bearing races as lateral blade guides.
I could snug those guides tight enough to cause them to emit
ugly noises and the darned saw still wouldn't cut truly straight.
I never understood the reason.
I bought a Makita 'dry saw' for ferrous metal a few years ago.
*That thing* cuts *straight* and *fast*! (Nice miters, too).
It is a beautiful machine.
>> I've used *good* band saws that do cut straight. This ain't one of them.
>> Of course it didn't cost like a real band saw does either. :)
>
> I still think the main differences other than obvious stuff like depth
> of cut and power is in ease of set up and maintaining set up. For
> example, I can adjust my blade guide height while the saw is running,
> you can't do that on all saws. At any rate, cutting straight I think is
> more in technique and blade choice, but I've been wrong before...
That is though provoking. I will have to check those guides.
>> We shall see how this turns out. Honestly, these gates only have
>> to last a few years until I can get around to replacing the concrete in
>> the affected side yard. Then I will weld up something with box tube.
>
> People tend to use PT wood where it's not needed. This includes me. You
> could build the gate out of any wood you want, white pine for example,
> and it would not rot for probably 50 to 100 years, maybe 1000 years with
> proper construction and surface treatment.
You got me there. I'm an electronics tech with *no* wood working skill
so I bumble along as well as I can with the generous advice from folks
who are in the know.
I've been told that regular doug fir 4x4s are perfectly fine for fence
posts, yet I always replace them with PT because of the astounding rate
at which the 'professionally installed' posts rot away.
This is where I'm happiest though because I'm learning new stuff!
--Winston
Winston wrote:
> On 4/28/2010 11:11 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
>> J. Clark is right. Here are 3 pictures of wolmanized 2x4 and a 2x6 I had
>> laying around my shop. These are above ground pieces, not rated for
>> below ground use and whether the pictures show it well or not, I can
>> tell you the treatment is all the way through. The 3rd one shows the
>> heart wood is a different color but the treatment is throughout, and not
>> just he first 1/4".
>> This is standard wolmanized lumber, can't say where I bought it but
>> probably 84 lumber, a lumber yard.
>>
>> http://jbstein.com/Flick/Wolman1.jpg
>> http://jbstein.com/Flick/Wolman2.jpg
>> http://jbstein.com/Flick/Wolman3.jpg
>
> What pretty lumber you have there!
After thinking about it, the last PT lumber I bought was at Home Depot
when my son built a couple of picnic tables out of it. The pictures
just show that the treatment goes all the way through as J.Clark
professed, and the sticker still on the end says for above ground use.
> That doesn't look anything like the bargain basement
> sticks I'm working with.
You can bet I cherry picked like crazy. I never bought lumber w/o
cherry picking, even at the best lumber yards.
--
Jack
A.C.O.R.N: For Democrats that just can't vote often enough...
http://jbstein.com
On 4/29/2010 8:48 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> Winston wrote:
>> On 4/29/2010 7:22 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
>>> Winston wrote:
>>>> On 4/28/2010 6:37 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
>>>>
>>>> (Thoughtful reference to unfortunately wasted bandwidth deleted).
>>>>
>>>>> Anyway, my opinion on all this is you should, just on general
>>>>> principles, figure out how to set up and use your BS to make these
>>>>> half lap joints.
>>>>
>>>> You are right of course.
>>>> My bandsaw however is very cheaply made.
>>>> With extensive tuning and tweaking, it still refuses to cut
>>>> straight.
>>>
>>> I don't have a cheap bandsaw, but it is old. My opinion, never having
>>> used a cheap bandsaw mind you, is there is very little about a bs
>>> that stops it from cutting "straight". If you can set the table at
>>> 90° to the blade, and tension the blade enough so it is "taut" it
>>> should cut "straight" Cutting an arc is more problematic as the
>>> guides on a quality saw are better at this. Having said that,
>>> "straight" on a bs is seldom parallel to the blade. Eventually, or
>>> always, a particular blade will require cutting "straight" at an
>>> angle.
My saw is now cutting much straighter.
Thanks, Jack for the nudge.
I paid more careful attention when tightening the clamping setscrews
on the lateral blade guides. The setscrews on the top guide are not
normal to any surface on the guides, they are at an angle so that as
they bear down, they slide the guide in relation to the post.
I clamped the guide in place before tightening the clamping screw
and the saw is working much better.
http://users.stratuswave.net/~wd8jik/bjig/fence3.JPG
>> This makes the miter fence useless and the rip fence moderately so.
>
> A bandsaw fence should be adjustable for drift. "Drift" is the deviation
> from parallel to the blade. Drift is common to every bandsaw I have ever
> used and depends on numerous things. If your fence isn't adjustable, throw
> it away, it is worthless.
>
> To adjust the fence, draw a straight line on a piece of wood 18-30" or so
> long and cut along it *without* a fence. Once you have the wood being cut
> straight, hold it in place and turn off the saw; now move the fence to the
> wood and adjust its angle so it touches the wood you were cutting along its
> entire length.
>
> Miter gauges can be adjusted perpendicular to the fence once the fence is
> adjusted.
>
> In practice I rarely use a fence unless I am ripping lots of stuff and want
> each to be close to the same thickness. Instead, I draw a line on the wood
> and cut freehand using my thumb and finger as a two point fence; thumb in
> front of the blade, finger after.
Copy that dadiOH.
Thanks!
--Winston
--
Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
On 4/29/2010 3:58 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 07:33:09 -0700, the infamous Winston
> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
(...)
>> I would even go for some diagonal 1/4" threaded rod
>> with a turnbuckle feature in the middle.
>
> Yeah, and pick up some of HD's spray-on "Pressure Treated Look" to
> make it blend in with the sprayed lumber.
'Khaki - in - a - can'? I will look for it.
> Ponder why you went to HD for lumber, too, while you're at it.
> <titter>
Yup. Don't ask me why I did that.
I've repaired a couple fences with wood from a local outfit
called 'Pine Cone Lumber'. Nice folks. Good quality.
Reasonable prices. Figured I'd save a buck by driving down
the street to HD anyway.
Bad Tech. *Thwack!* No Cookie.
--Winston
On 4/29/2010 5:48 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 18:48:21 -0400, the infamous "J. Clarke"
> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
(...)
>> One option is to have a sailboat shop or an airframe mechanic make you
>> up a couple of lengths of rigging cable with swaged studs on each end,
>> making sure one of them is a left hand thread to take a turnbuckle. Not
>> gonna be cheap, but nobody's going to think it's a "bodge".
>
> I thought Winnie had a commaless budget. Stainless wire rope with
> properly swaged ends would cost more than the entire rest of the
> fence.
'S the reason I ask the knowledgeable.
Good info. Thanks!
>
>
>> Or if you _gotta_ do it yourself get some stainless cable and Norseman
>> fittings (they make a left hand stud but good luck actually finding one
>> in stock anywhere).
>
> www.Harborreight.com used to have some 4mm ends.
Continuing Ponder Mode.
--Winston
--
Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
dadiOH wrote:
> Jack Stein wrote:
>
>> People tend to use PT wood where it's not needed. This includes me.
>> You could build the gate out of any wood you want, white pine for
>> example, and it would not rot for probably 50 to 100 years, maybe 1000
>> years with proper construction and surface treatment.
>
> My first garden gate was made out of "white wood" well primed and painted.
> It was rotted in less than a year. The PT replacement is about 12 now, no
> rot. Much depends on environment.
Painted wood tends to rot immediately if moisture gets under the paint,
which it eventually always does. If the moisture gets under the paint,
it can't dry out, and rot always ensues. Unpainted, and untreated wood
will not rot if it can dry. Painted wood prevents rot until moisture
gets under the paint. Gates, other than posts sunk in the ground, tend
to air dry quite well in most environments.
I guess if you live in a rain forest or on the ocean, that would effect
things. Where do you live that a painted gate rotted in less than a year?
Also, I have not a clue what "white wood" might be?
--
Jack
Free men do not ask permission to bear arms.
http://jbstein.com
Larry Jaques wrote:
> Yeah, and pick up some of HD's spray-on "Pressure Treated Look" to
> make it blend in with the sprayed lumber.
I've bought PT lumber at HD and it was fine, and the treatment went all
the way through as shown in the pictures I posted.
>> I must ponder.
>
> Ponder why you went to HD for lumber, too, while you're at it.
> <titter>
About every lumber yard within reach has disappeared from my area. I
buy lumber at HD and have been mostly happy with it. I recently bought
some 3/4 plywood that was on sale for $23 a sheet. I was building a
rolling lumber rack. The cheap stuff was $19 a sheet, and was junk.
The $23 was as good as AB ply gets. I felt bad using it on a base for a
lumber rack...
You can buy unbelievably good Oak lumber at my HD and it is perfect.
The price is stupid though, but Festools would work well on it.
Construction lumber is good, I've bought lots of it at my HD and it was
fine. Biggest problem I found is pricing. Often, it makes no sense,
like a 10' 2x6 costing less than an 8' 2x6.
I'm sure it depends on lots of stuff what the quality is like, but it is
as good as any general contractors lumber yard I've been. If you are
looking for walnut to build a fine dining room table, you are at the
wrong place.
--
Jack
Got Change: Democratic Republic ======> Banana Republic!
http://jbstein.com
Winston wrote:
> On 4/29/2010 7:22 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
>> Having said that, "straight" on a bs is seldom
>> parallel to the blade. Eventually, or always, a particular blade will
>> require cutting "straight" at an angle.
>
> This makes the miter fence useless and the rip fence moderately so.
Pretty much. I don't recall ever using a miter fence on the BS, and
generally I only use a rip fence if I have the table tilted at 45°. For
resawing, a rip fence can be used, but must be set at the cutting angle
of the particular saw blade in use, or just a point at the blade like
this fence:
(http://images.meredith.com/wood/images/p_374_1_1.gif).
For cutting a lap joint on the end of a 2x I would use no fence on the
band saw. Fences and miter gages are more of a tool for the table saw.
Draw lines on the wood, and cut along them, free hand.
> I don't know enough about the physics to explain it efficiently.
> Perhaps the blade guides in my saw need to be ground or replaced.
I think the guides are mainly for cutting arcs, not so much straight lines.
> I can visualize how the set screw could indent each mushy guide,
> preventing a worn guide from getting close enough to the side of
> the blade. That would do it for sure!
Those guides pretty much keep the blade from twisting when cutting an
arc. Theoretically, when cutting a straight line, the guides should not
come into play at all.
> Having said that, I had a horizontal / vertical band saw that used
> the outside of ball bearing races as lateral blade guides.
> I could snug those guides tight enough to cause them to emit
> ugly noises and the darned saw still wouldn't cut truly straight.
> I never understood the reason.
Again, if you lose the fence, or, adjust the fence so it cuts at the
correct angle for that blade, then you will cut straight enough for a
bandsaw. Truly straight is more of a job for the table saw.
>
> I bought a Makita 'dry saw' for ferrous metal a few years ago.
> *That thing* cuts *straight* and *fast*! (Nice miters, too).
> It is a beautiful machine.
>>> I've used *good* band saws that do cut straight. This ain't one of them.
>>> Of course it didn't cost like a real band saw does either. :)
Yes, there is cheap, there is good, and there is industrial. My saw is
cheap compared to industrial, and good compared to cheap:-) My guess is
none of them really cut "straight" other than saw mills and stuff like
that. Saw mills don't cut arcs very well either:-)
>> I still think the main differences other than obvious stuff like depth
>> of cut and power is in ease of set up and maintaining set up. For
>> example, I can adjust my blade guide height while the saw is running,
>> you can't do that on all saws. At any rate, cutting straight I think is
>> more in technique and blade choice, but I've been wrong before...
>
> That is though provoking. I will have to check those guides.
Thought provoking? That's the nicest thing anyone ever said about me,
really. Thanks for that, it is 60% of my intent:-)
> You got me there. I'm an electronics tech with *no* wood working skill
> so I bumble along as well as I can with the generous advice from folks
> who are in the know.
I hear ya. Around here, advice comes from everybody. Take it all,
including mine, with a grain of salt.
> I've been told that regular doug fir 4x4s are perfectly fine for fence
> posts, yet I always replace them with PT because of the astounding rate
> at which the 'professionally installed' posts rot away.
PT wood is required if underground and not in a desert. As long as the
wood can air dry reasonably well, rot should not be a big issue. The
only untreated wood I've heard of good for fence posts is Locust. PT is
much easier to find:-)
--
Jack
News Flash: Government Motors (GM) fines their top competitor $16 Mil.
http://jbstein.com
On 5/1/2010 6:38 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
> Winston wrote:
>> On 4/29/2010 7:22 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
>
>>> Having said that, "straight" on a bs is seldom
>>> parallel to the blade. Eventually, or always, a particular blade will
>>> require cutting "straight" at an angle.
>>
>> This makes the miter fence useless and the rip fence moderately so.
>
> Pretty much. I don't recall ever using a miter fence on the BS, and
> generally I only use a rip fence if I have the table tilted at 45°. For
> resawing, a rip fence can be used, but must be set at the cutting angle
> of the particular saw blade in use, or just a point at the blade like
> this fence:
>
> (http://images.meredith.com/wood/images/p_374_1_1.gif).
>
> For cutting a lap joint on the end of a 2x I would use no fence on the
> band saw. Fences and miter gages are more of a tool for the table saw.
> Draw lines on the wood, and cut along them, free hand.
I tried that yesterday morning. It produced the quickest, quietest step
feature in the end of the 2x4.
However! I checked the thickness of the resulting step and it was
all over the map. Worst case variation was like -0.1"!!
Part of that has to be the extremely rough texture of the board,
I assume. I gave up and bought a mucho macho plunge router to
perform both the roughing and final depth finishing.
>> I don't know enough about the physics to explain it efficiently.
>> Perhaps the blade guides in my saw need to be ground or replaced.
>
> I think the guides are mainly for cutting arcs, not so much straight lines.
I use the Whimpy Wobbly 1/4" blades.
>> I can visualize how the set screw could indent each mushy guide,
>> preventing a worn guide from getting close enough to the side of
>> the blade. That would do it for sure!
>
> Those guides pretty much keep the blade from twisting when cutting an
> arc. Theoretically, when cutting a straight line, the guides should not
> come into play at all.
>
>> Having said that, I had a horizontal / vertical band saw that used
>> the outside of ball bearing races as lateral blade guides.
>> I could snug those guides tight enough to cause them to emit
>> ugly noises and the darned saw still wouldn't cut truly straight.
>> I never understood the reason.
>
> Again, if you lose the fence, or, adjust the fence so it cuts at the
> correct angle for that blade, then you will cut straight enough for a
> bandsaw. Truly straight is more of a job for the table saw.
>>
>> I bought a Makita 'dry saw' for ferrous metal a few years ago.
>> *That thing* cuts *straight* and *fast*! (Nice miters, too).
>> It is a beautiful machine.
>
>>>> I've used *good* band saws that do cut straight. This ain't one of
>>>> them.
>>>> Of course it didn't cost like a real band saw does either. :)
>
> Yes, there is cheap, there is good, and there is industrial. My saw is
> cheap compared to industrial, and good compared to cheap:-) My guess is
> none of them really cut "straight" other than saw mills and stuff like
> that. Saw mills don't cut arcs very well either:-)
Heh!
>>> I still think the main differences other than obvious stuff like depth
>>> of cut and power is in ease of set up and maintaining set up. For
>>> example, I can adjust my blade guide height while the saw is running,
>>> you can't do that on all saws. At any rate, cutting straight I think is
>>> more in technique and blade choice, but I've been wrong before...
>>
>> That is though provoking. I will have to check those guides.
>
> Thought provoking? That's the nicest thing anyone ever said about me,
> really. Thanks for that, it is 60% of my intent:-)
>
>> You got me there. I'm an electronics tech with *no* wood working skill
>> so I bumble along as well as I can with the generous advice from folks
>> who are in the know.
>
> I hear ya. Around here, advice comes from everybody. Take it all,
> including mine, with a grain of salt.
Heh!
>> I've been told that regular doug fir 4x4s are perfectly fine for fence
>> posts, yet I always replace them with PT because of the astounding rate
>> at which the 'professionally installed' posts rot away.
>
> PT wood is required if underground and not in a desert. As long as the
> wood can air dry reasonably well, rot should not be a big issue. The
> only untreated wood I've heard of good for fence posts is Locust. PT is
> much easier to find:-)
Thanks!
--Winston
On 4/30/2010 9:01 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Apr 2010 20:51:36 -0700, the infamous Winston
> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
(...)
>> 'Khaki - in - a - can'? I will look for it.
>
> More like "Hershey-squirt khaki", innit?
Dark chocolate, not milk chocolate.
> I've heard of them, believe it or not.
Yup. Originally thought of them because I used to work with
one of the owner's sons who is an EE. (So's the other one.)
> Didn't we warn you about doing that "thinking" thing?<tsk tsk tsk>
Tis sad.
> I've recently found out that our local hardware stores are priced
> better than the electrical, plumbing, and fastener sections of HD, so
> the new store in Phoenix (no, down the street here in Oregon, silly)
> isn't a real draw to me any more.
Sometimes the longer drive is well worth it.
--Winston
On 4/30/2010 9:04 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> Oops, the F is missing there. But they're down for maintenance mode
> since their shopping cart is passing out everyone else's info right
> now. Oops. I checked yesterday and couldn't find their ends, so they
> probably discontinued them. I should have bought some when I had the
> chance. American made stainless fixtures are 10x the cost.
I'm gonna go with the glued and screwed lap joints.
(Mind out of the gutter, Larry)
If the gates start sagging, I'll string them up with the cheapo
deluxe cable thingy you mentioned earlier.
--Winston
On 5/1/2010 5:54 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
> Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>> Yeah, and pick up some of HD's spray-on "Pressure Treated Look" to
>> make it blend in with the sprayed lumber.
>
> I've bought PT lumber at HD and it was fine, and the treatment went all
> the way through as shown in the pictures I posted.
I'm beginning to think that HD managers are given a *lot*
of autonomy or that their suppliers provide *highly* variable
product quality and pricing.
>>> I must ponder.
>>
>> Ponder why you went to HD for lumber, too, while you're at it.
>> <titter>
>
> About every lumber yard within reach has disappeared from my area.I buy
> lumber at HD and have been mostly happy with it. I recently bought some
> 3/4 plywood that was on sale for $23 a sheet. I was building a rolling
> lumber rack. The cheap stuff was $19 a sheet, and was junk. The $23 was
> as good as AB ply gets. I felt bad using it on a base for a lumber rack...
>
> You can buy unbelievably good Oak lumber at my HD and it is perfect. The
> price is stupid though, but Festools would work well on it. Construction
> lumber is good, I've bought lots of it at my HD and it was fine. Biggest
> problem I found is pricing. Often, it makes no sense, like a 10' 2x6
> costing less than an 8' 2x6.
>
> I'm sure it depends on lots of stuff what the quality is like, but it is
> as good as any general contractors lumber yard I've been. If you are
> looking for walnut to build a fine dining room table, you are at the
> wrong place.
There are compensations to HD.
I needed some cheap scrap to make a 'story plank' for routing.
They wanted ~$18 for MDF off the rack.
Found a couple 8' long pieces of MDF in the scrap pile near the sheet saw
in the back. Flagged down a sales guy who sprayed it for me.
Cost: $1.00 each. That is more like it!
--Winston
On 5/1/2010 4:23 PM, Lee Michaels wrote:
> "Winston" wrote
>>
>> There are compensations to HD.
>>
>> I needed some cheap scrap to make a 'story plank' for routing.
>> They wanted ~$18 for MDF off the rack.
>> Found a couple 8' long pieces of MDF in the scrap pile near the sheet saw
>> in the back. Flagged down a sales guy who sprayed it for me.
>>
>> Cost: $1.00 each. That is more like it!
>>
> I used to buy stuff out of their scrap bin all the time. But they stopped
> that and will no longer offer scrap. In fact they have big signs up all
> over the back of the store that scrap is not for sale. Something must have
> happened to create that policy.
Is that true for all the HDs in your area or just the one store?
I find them to be variable. Some managers are focused on getting lots
of cash out of the customer and some managers try very hard to keep
that nasty cash in the customer's pocket. Another Mystery!
For instance, yesterday I made a U-turn in front of my local store
so that I could spend >$200 for a router and cutters at another HD that
was at some distance.
--Winston
On 5/1/2010 6:36 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
> Winston<[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
(...)
>> Cost: $1.00 each. That is more like it!
>>
>> --Winston
>
> The scrap cart is always worth checking out. Not every HD has one, but
> it's worth looking for. I've come out of there with hundreds of dollars
> of original price lumber while paying only a tiny bit.
>
> It seems Home Depots are about as variable in quality as a random
> sampling of hardware stores. Some are really good (like the local one
> here), and others are quite bad.
My local HD is a little bipolar.
Sometimes they set off the RFID alarm as you exit
then ignore you when you walk back in to see what
the deal is.
Sometimes they are pleasant, helpful and accommodating.
Sometimes they narrow their eyes and address you with a snarl.
Sometimes they locate an item for you in *seconds*.
Man, you *never* know what Sylvia is gonna do!
--Winston
Lee Michaels wrote:
> "Winston" wrote
>> There are compensations to HD.
>>
>> I needed some cheap scrap to make a 'story plank' for routing.
>> They wanted ~$18 for MDF off the rack.
>> Found a couple 8' long pieces of MDF in the scrap pile near the sheet saw
>> in the back. Flagged down a sales guy who sprayed it for me.
>>
>> Cost: $1.00 each. That is more like it!
>>
> I used to buy stuff out of their scrap bin all the time. But they stopped
> that and will no longer offer scrap. In fact they have big signs up all
> over the back of the store that scrap is not for sale. Something must have
> happened to create that policy.
My HD still sells scrap, at least as of about a month or so ago. I just
discovered this and have bought all sorts of good stuff, like 2x12x4'
for 50 cents, stuff like that. Figures they'd stop it just after I
discovered it...
--
Jack
News Flash: Government Motors (GM) fines their top competitor $16 Mil.
http://jbstein.com
Winston wrote:
> On 5/1/2010 6:38 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
>> Winston wrote:
>>> On 4/29/2010 7:22 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
>> For cutting a lap joint on the end of a 2x I would use no fence on the
>> band saw. Fences and miter gages are more of a tool for the table saw.
>> Draw lines on the wood, and cut along them, free hand.
>
> I tried that yesterday morning. It produced the quickest, quietest step
> feature in the end of the 2x4.
> However! I checked the thickness of the resulting step and it was
> all over the map. Worst case variation was like -0.1"!!
> Part of that has to be the extremely rough texture of the board,
> I assume. I gave up and bought a mucho macho plunge router to
> perform both the roughing and final depth finishing.
Yes, the cut of a bs is going to be rough, but less rough than using a
circular saw, multiple cuts and a framing hammer to knock off the slivers:-)
>> I think the guides are mainly for cutting arcs, not so much straight
>> lines.
> I use the Whimpy Wobbly 1/4" blades.
I mostly use 3/16th blades. I like thin blades on my saw. They are
perfect for 95% of everything I do on the BS, I even re-saw with them.
I can cut a lap joint on a 2x for a gate or a work bench, no problem. I
wouldn't use it for a joint on a roll top desk, or any household
furniture. If I were cutting 15 or 20 of them and the work was short
enough, I'd use the table saw and a tenoning jig. If too long, I'd use
a router and cut multiple boards at once.
--
Jack
The reason I carry a gun is because a cop is too heavy.
http://jbstein.com
On 5/2/2010 8:37 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
> Winston wrote:
(...)
>> I use the Whimpy Wobbly 1/4" blades.
>
> I mostly use 3/16th blades. I like thin blades on my saw. They are
> perfect for 95% of everything I do on the BS, I even re-saw with them. I
> can cut a lap joint on a 2x for a gate or a work bench, no problem.
If I tension the blade enough to do that, it falls off the top wheel.
I think the frame of the saw is bending. Hmm. Time to buy a real saw!
:)
(...)
> If I were cutting 15 or 20 of them and the work was short
> enough, I'd use the table saw and a tenoning jig. If too long, I'd use a
> router and cut multiple boards at once.
Yup. I'm going to mix your metaphor and cut them using a story board
and my new mucho router.
--Winston
On 5/2/2010 11:43 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> Winston wrote:
>> On 5/2/2010 8:37 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
>>> Winston wrote:
>>
>> (...)
>>
>>>> I use the Whimpy Wobbly 1/4" blades.
>>>
>>> I mostly use 3/16th blades. I like thin blades on my saw. They are
>>> perfect for 95% of everything I do on the BS, I even re-saw with
>>> them. I can cut a lap joint on a 2x for a gate or a work bench, no
>>> problem.
>>
>> If I tension the blade enough to do that, it falls off the top wheel.
>
> Then you need to adjust your wheel. Both upper and lower should be in the
> same plane.
(Embarrassed Cough) Yes. Better now. Thanks!
--Winston
On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 07:44:26 -0700, the infamous Winston
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>On 4/27/2010 6:59 AM, dpb wrote:
>> Winston wrote:
>>>> On 4/26/2010 9:04 PM, Winston wrote:
>> ...
>>>>> I was hoping to take advantage of the raw wood in flat contact by
>>>>> gluing the corner laps together for added rigidity.
>> ...
>> If I'm reading your intent correctly, the corner would be grain at
>> 90-deg angles.
>
>Yes.
>
>> Such a cross-grain joint will fail shortly even w/o the
>> exposure to weather.
>
>Even with screws through the facing boards and through the lap joints?
>I had no idea doug fir was that weak. I shall have to rethink this.
Doug fir isn't used in PT. PT is the cheapest, weakest wood they can
find, the second grade SPF. (spruce/pine/fir, other than Douglas)
Doug fir is an extremely strong pineywood, drying hard enough to bend
green sinkers in a single pound.
>Perhaps I should weld up a steel box tube frame and use tek screws
>to hold the facing boards to the front. That'd work but I suspect
>it would have to be powder coated. This woodworking stuff is more
>complicated than I thought it would be!
Ayup.
>> Forget the glue; if anything, a flexible glue
>> _might_ help serve as a moisture barrier similar to a caulk. The abutted
>> faces will be a moisture wicking point.
>>
>> As for cutting them, I make the shoulder cut w/ the circular saw and
>> then use the bow saw (rip blade) to cut the length. Some practice and
>> can do that as clean or cleaner than any other way and as quickly as well.
>
>I can't even place a proper axial cut with a band saw!
Eek!
>As you say above, it would all fall apart quickly anyway.
Coated metal is a good choice, butcha can use wood or plastic decking
over it.
>This is educational. Thanks for your thoughts.
Of course. The Wreck is just like Wreck.Metalheads, only different.
--
Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.
In article <[email protected]>,
Winston <[email protected]> wrote:
>The proper answer is 'buy or borrow a table saw with a dado blade'.
>
>However, I don't want to.
>
>I want to use my plunge router to place a 3-1/2" square lap joint
>about 3/4" deep on the ends of several pressure treated 2x4s.
>I will don a respirator first, no worries.
>
>I've designed an machined jig to allow me to do
>this but I want to know how you pro's would approach this
>challenge before I search my junk pile for parts.
>
>My Google-fu was not up to the challenge. Instead, it revealed
>some table saw adapters.
>
>My band saw refuses to cut anywhere near straight so that's out.
>
>First prize answer would be an inexpensive jig I could pick up
>at my local hardware store.
>
>What would SuperWoodworker do?
Skilsaw (or equivalent), cut across the 2x4 at the proper distance from
the end, then use the Neander approach -- wide wood chisel and a hammer
to 'split' in from the end.
*WAY* less dust than the router will throw up.
Of course, you've got to be able to chisel a flat surface. for the lap.
To reduce the effort of Neandering, do a -series- of parallel custs with
the Skilsaw, then break the 'fingers' off, and clean up with the chisel.
On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 14:16:31 -0400, the infamous "J. Clarke"
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>On 4/27/2010 12:22 PM, Winston wrote:
>> On 4/27/2010 8:39 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>> (...)
>>
>>>> Any PT I've cut up is the same color all the way through.
>>>
>>> None that I have ever cut was.
>>
>> I am So ConFused!
>
>Don't trust either of us. Go down to Home Depot, get a green pressure
>treated 4x4, cut it in half, see what the inside looks like.
GREEN? Hell, son, it's all brown now. ;)
--
Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.
Winston wrote:
> On 4/26/2010 7:27 AM, Swingman wrote:
>> On 4/26/2010 9:09 AM, Winston wrote:
>>> The proper answer is 'buy or borrow a table saw with a dado blade'.
>>>
>>> However, I don't want to.
>>
>> Typically what would be done on site by an experienced framing crew
>> would be a circular saw to make multiple, close together shoulder
>> cuts at the proper depth, and a chisel to finish chopping the
>> residue of these cuts out.
>>
>> Just one of many options ...
>
>
> I will give that a try.
After popping the uncut parts with a chisel, use a shoemaker's rasp (AKA 4
in hand rasp) to smooth the bottoms.
http://www.dick.biz/medias/sys_master/711049_01_P_WE_8.jpg
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
Winston wrote:
> On 4/27/2010 8:06 AM, Mike Paulsen wrote:
>> Winston wrote:
>>> The proper answer is 'buy or borrow a table saw with a dado blade'.
>>>
>>> However, I don't want to.
>>>
>>> I want to use my plunge router to place a 3-1/2" square lap joint
>>> about 3/4" deep on the ends of several pressure treated 2x4s.
>> (snip)
>>> What would SuperWoodworker do?
>>>
>>
>> SuperWoodworker might double up 1x4s rather than cutting lap joints
>> in 2x4s, depending on the application.
>
> Great idea but 2 x 4 was the smallest PT lumber I could find.
>
> As dpb says, grain orientation would prevent the joint from being
> structurally sound anyway, so perhaps a steel frame or maybe
> some "L" StrongTie joints.
>
> http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/T-L.asp
My garden gate frame is made of 2x6 PT lumber, half lap joints. It is
sizeable, roughly 4' x 6'. It is 12 years old now, joints are fine. Just
glued, no screws; not sure what glue I used but most likely Type 2 yellow.
I don't recall what you are making, gate? If so and it is sizeable and
heavy your biggest potential problem is sag (2x4s aren't all that strong).
A diagonal from the top outside corner to the bottom inside (hinge side)
corner will help counter that. Ditto steel straps. See photo here...
http://www.cornerhardware.com/howto/ht011.html
If it's a gate and you intend to attach boards to the frame, leave at least
1/8" between the boards; i.e., don't try to fit them together to make a
solid wood surface. Reason is they will expand and contract and if they are
chock-o-block one to another there is no room to expand.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 12:03:17 -0500, the infamous Swingman
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>On 4/27/2010 9:30 AM, Winston wrote:
>
>> Larry, can I use regular wood glue to bond inner fibers of PT doug fir?
>> Would epoxy work better? Some other adhesive perhaps?
>
>Take this to the bank: use a "construction adhesive" that is formulated
>for pressure treated wood.
>
>One that immediately comes to mind, and should be easy to find at the
>BORG, is "Liquid Nails - Subfloor".
"Goes on wet, comes up sticky!"
>Simply put, disregard anything else you read on this issue in this
>thread about gluing with other types of woodworking glues ...
What he said, but I still prefer galvanized glue for the PT crap.
--
Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.
On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 20:03:55 -0700, the infamous Winston
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>On 4/27/2010 7:04 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 14:19:44 -0400, the infamous "J. Clarke"
>> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>>
>>
>>> Suggestion--on any gate put in a diagonal brace. This can be a board, a
>>> piece of wire, a threaded rod, or whatever else suits your fancy. With
>>> a diagonal brace it's much much less likely to sag.
>>>
>>> Also note that aliphatic resin glues like Titebond, while they are very
>>> strong, tend to creep when subjected to continuous load.
>>
>> That's an excellent suggestion.
>>
>> ACE Hardware sells a gate brace kit with a length of wire rope, a pair
>> of angle bracket ends, screws, and a turnbuckle for $15. They're well
>> worth it and out-perform z bracing by tenfold.
>
>Yeahbut.
>
>I wanna do it myself!
>
>:)
OK, and then do it again when the latch bolt doesn't line up any more
in the spring, and again in the fall, and twice next year, too. I
prefer a 30 second fix, myself. YMMV
--
Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.
On Sat, 01 May 2010 08:54:02 -0400, the infamous Jack Stein
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>> Yeah, and pick up some of HD's spray-on "Pressure Treated Look" to
>> make it blend in with the sprayed lumber.
>
>I've bought PT lumber at HD and it was fine, and the treatment went all
>the way through as shown in the pictures I posted.
Evidently, the accidentally bought some Wolmanized wood which had a
100% treatment. Go figure.
>>> I must ponder.
>>
>> Ponder why you went to HD for lumber, too, while you're at it.
>> <titter>
>
>About every lumber yard within reach has disappeared from my area. I
>buy lumber at HD and have been mostly happy with it. I recently bought
>some 3/4 plywood that was on sale for $23 a sheet. I was building a
>rolling lumber rack. The cheap stuff was $19 a sheet, and was junk.
>The $23 was as good as AB ply gets. I felt bad using it on a base for a
>lumber rack...
We still have lumber up here in the PNW, thank Crom.
>You can buy unbelievably good Oak lumber at my HD and it is perfect.
>The price is stupid though, but Festools would work well on it.
<pricy, knowing grinne>
>Construction lumber is good, I've bought lots of it at my HD and it was
>fine. Biggest problem I found is pricing. Often, it makes no sense,
>like a 10' 2x6 costing less than an 8' 2x6.
Their 4x4s were cheaper than 2x4s one time I was there. I left
scratching my head. They must import it from China. US and CA mills
wouldn't lower themselves to put out the crap I've seen at Homey's
Despot stores.
>I'm sure it depends on lots of stuff what the quality is like, but it is
>as good as any general contractors lumber yard I've been. If you are
>looking for walnut to build a fine dining room table, you are at the
>wrong place.
I've seen perfectly good (looking, but was it case-hardened?)
hardwoods there, but never good dimensional lumber. I buy local,
always.
--
Courage is the power to let go of the familiar.
-- Raymond Lindquist
On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 18:26:54 -0700, the infamous Winston
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>On 4/27/2010 5:39 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 06:06:01 -0700, the infamous Winston
>> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>
>(...)
>
>>> That'll be the thing I learned today. Thanks!
>>
>> Or not. I'd love to see a cutoff from the middle of a PT 4x4 from Mr.
>> Clarke. I've never seen PT injected more than about 1/2", and that was
>> with a vacuum/pressure treating chamber and steel knife incised on 2
>> sides.
>
>Just now I cut off one of my HD pressure treated 2 x 4s,
>about 6" from one end and made a color scan of the
>cross section. I can send a jpg if you would like, anyone
>(well almost anyone). Beware, it is 2.8 MB.
>
>Be sitting down before you look at the picture because you
>will laugh your ass off.
Is it sprayed on? Now you know why you don't buy wood at Homey's
Despot.
Send the pic! You have my addy.
--
Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.
On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 09:48:48 -0700, the infamous Winston
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>On 4/27/2010 9:10 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>> Winston wrote:
>>> On 4/27/2010 6:59 AM, dpb wrote:
>
>(...)
>
>>>> Such a cross-grain joint will fail shortly even w/o the
>>>> exposure to weather.
>>>
>>> Even with screws through the facing boards and through the lap joints?
>>> I had no idea doug fir was that weak. I shall have to rethink this.
>>
>> 1. Douglas fir isn't weak. Certainly, there are others stronger but not
>> softwoods AFAIK. You are lucky to live where you can get it easily and (I
>> trust) inexpensively.
>
>It does require careful sorting to find lumber that is halfway clear
>and free of bark and chips, though.
I've seen ten year old plain doug fir decking which has survived
better than pressure treated lumber here in rainy Oregano. It's good
schtuff, Maynard.
>Heh! The Home Depot lumber guy apparently didn't like me 'cherry picking'
>his pile of 2 x 4's very much. (I put back my rejects neatly so I don't
>understand his attitude.)
Tell him to kiss your ass, and shop at a _real_ lumberyard next time,
Pooh.
>I looked up after loading my cart and saw that he had closed the gates
>on both ends of the aisle, caging me in. He re-appeared and asked if
>I wanted out, so I told him 'Yes, unless you want to buy me lunch'!. :)
Wow.
>> 2. If the mating surfaces are reasonably flat your joints will be fine with
>> or without the screws. Screws are handy to clamp them together while the
>> glue dries though and won't hurt anything.
>
>OK.
Nahm's brad nailah won't help in this instance.
>> The biggest problem with screws is that it is next to impossible to find
>> convenient sources of hot dipped galvanized screws. Outdoors, plain steel
>> or electro-plated steel will rust; given time (months to years) the rusted
>> areas will eventually deteriorate the wood. Bronze, stainless steel and
>> Monel don't rust.
>
>On recommendation from the sales guy, I bought a couple boxes of
>'Primeguard Plus' square / phillips drive screws. They are
>said to be good for outdoor use and to be compatible with
>the chems in pressure treated lumber. I hope they will be
>OK, because they drive like a dream, even into dry wood.
Yeah, those are the epoxy coated screws I complained about.
I haven't seen any failures in PT wood yet, including the old CCA
treated stuff, but I will be moving entirely into galv once again as
soon as my 25 lbs of Primeguard is gone. If you drive one in and have
to remove it for any reason, discard it and put a new one in, though.
You'll see bare steel there, the reason you discard it.
>>> This woodworking stuff is more
>>> complicated than I thought it would be!
>>
>> Not really. What is complicated is the differing opinions. The best
>> opinions are based on experience.
>
>
>I will go with Plan 'A' (lap frame corners, glued and screwed).
There ya go.
>I've been really lucky with the rest of the fence so perhaps
>this will work, too.
G'luck!
--
Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.
On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 01:43:14 -0400, the infamous "J. Clarke"
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>On 4/27/2010 12:36 AM, Winston wrote:
>> On 4/26/2010 7:14 PM, Swingman wrote:
>>> On 4/26/2010 9:04 PM, Winston wrote:
>>>
>>>> I was hoping to take advantage of the raw wood in flat contact by
>>>> gluing the corner laps together for added rigidity.
>>>> Flatter would be better for that use, yes?
>>>
>>> Consider a "glue" that can be used with pressure treated wood,
>>
>> Whups. I guessed that the chemical treatment penetration would
>> be shallow enough that the core would remain reasonably unaffected.
>> I was thinking on the order of say 1/4" depth max.
>> I will have to check into this. Thanks for the heads up.
>
>The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way through.
YOU, sir, have obviously never cut a pressure treated piece of lumber
in half. The core is never, in my experience, fully treated. Copper
solutions only penetrate about 1/4", as discussed above.
That's why I keep 2 colors of dye/preservative in my truck. I have to
daub it on the cut ends of PT lumber when I'm done so it matches and
is protected from bugs and moisture. http://fwd4.me/EMu brown (most
used) and http://fwd4.me/EMy (green) are what I've found locally.
>>> and be aware that a lap joint is one joint, particularly in this
>>> application,
>>> that, in addition to being "glued", needs to be either pinned or screwed
>>> together.
>>
>> Yup. I bought a couple boxes of chemical resistant square drive
>> fasteners from a local 'pro' lumber shop. I figured the shorter
>> fasteners for the lap corners and the longer fasteners to attach the
>> fence boards to the frame. Lag bolts for the hinges.
I've been using the epoxy coated deck screws, but find that upon
removal, half the epoxy is rubbed off. I'm in the process of
converting my stock to galv once again. I want my hard work to
outlast me. Square drive is definitely the best answer, too, with
combo (pozi and square) the next best thing. TORX is quite good, as
well, but square is my fave.
--
Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.
On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 07:30:31 -0700, the infamous Winston
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>On 4/27/2010 6:51 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 01:43:14 -0400, the infamous "J. Clarke"
>> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>>
>>> On 4/27/2010 12:36 AM, Winston wrote:
>
>(...)
>
>>>> Whups. I guessed that the chemical treatment penetration would
>>>> be shallow enough that the core would remain reasonably unaffected.
>>>> I was thinking on the order of say 1/4" depth max.
>>>> I will have to check into this. Thanks for the heads up.
>>>
>>> The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way through.
>>
>> YOU, sir, have obviously never cut a pressure treated piece of lumber
>> in half. The core is never, in my experience, fully treated. Copper
>> solutions only penetrate about 1/4", as discussed above.
>
>So, I learned *two* things this week.
>They are mutually contradictory, but I stand by my count.
>
>:)
>Larry, can I use regular wood glue to bond inner fibers of PT doug fir?
>Would epoxy work better? Some other adhesive perhaps?
Galvanized bolts work better unless you let the wood dry really well
first, and that means it'll warp before you get it up. :(
What's this for, again?
>> That's why I keep 2 colors of dye/preservative in my truck. I have to
>> daub it on the cut ends of PT lumber when I'm done so it matches and
>> is protected from bugs and moisture. http://fwd4.me/EMu brown (most
>> used) and http://fwd4.me/EMy (green) are what I've found locally.
>
>Yup, I have a can of 'environmentally friendly' sealant for cut ends.
>It seems to work because I saw no deterioration in some diagonally cut
>4 x 4 s that lived in the sun and rain for a decade.
What's environmentally friendly about mold/mildewcide and termiticide,
I wonder?
>> I've been using the epoxy coated deck screws, but find that upon
>> removal, half the epoxy is rubbed off. I'm in the process of
>> converting my stock to galv once again. I want my hard work to
>> outlast me. Square drive is definitely the best answer, too, with
>> combo (pozi and square) the next best thing. TORX is quite good, as
>> well, but square is my fave.
>
>Ya got that right! I tested my first square drive fasteners in lumber
>a couple days ago. Absolutely *no* cam-out, even with a 2-1/2" long
>screw into dry wood. Solid, Jackson.
That's the way things should work.
>Discovered an interesting thing (parenthetically speaking).
>The same screws are sold in entirely different ways per market.
>
>A 5 lb box of coated 2-1/2" screws cost me $15.00 at the local 'pro'
>wood monger. The box is marked "use with phillips *or* square driver".
Damn, those are CHEAP! I pay $20+ for those here, $25 for the normal
3-1/2-inchers, GripRITEs from Taiwan. Pozi heads, like yours.
Galv and other high-tech coatings are higher, too.
>The same screws from the same manufacturer sold at Home Depot is
>priced at >$28.00 and the box makes no mention of the 'square drive'
>ability, though the heads are clearly the same. It's almost as if they
>want you to cam the screw heads. Funny, that.
Yeah, that's why I use an impact driver exclusively, and square or
pozi heads almost exclusively.
--
Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.
On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 07:33:09 -0700, the infamous Winston
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>On 4/28/2010 5:41 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 20:03:55 -0700, the infamous Winston
>> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>>
>>> On 4/27/2010 7:04 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 14:19:44 -0400, the infamous "J. Clarke"
>>>> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Suggestion--on any gate put in a diagonal brace. This can be a board, a
>>>>> piece of wire, a threaded rod, or whatever else suits your fancy. With
>>>>> a diagonal brace it's much much less likely to sag.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also note that aliphatic resin glues like Titebond, while they are very
>>>>> strong, tend to creep when subjected to continuous load.
>>>>
>>>> That's an excellent suggestion.
>>>>
>>>> ACE Hardware sells a gate brace kit with a length of wire rope, a pair
>>>> of angle bracket ends, screws, and a turnbuckle for $15. They're well
>>>> worth it and out-perform z bracing by tenfold.
>>>
>>> Yeahbut.
>>>
>>> I wanna do it myself!
>>>
>>> :)
>>
>> OK, and then do it again when the latch bolt doesn't line up any more
>> in the spring, and again in the fall, and twice next year, too. I
>> prefer a 30 second fix, myself. YMMV
>
>You are doubtlessly right, Larry. (It's 'highlight then CTRL-C')
>
>I would like something that looks as if I intended it as part of
>the design in the first place, rather than something that is
>effective but looks like 'just another Winston bodge'.
>
>I would even go for some diagonal 1/4" threaded rod
>with a turnbuckle feature in the middle.
Yeah, and pick up some of HD's spray-on "Pressure Treated Look" to
make it blend in with the sprayed lumber.
>I must ponder.
Ponder why you went to HD for lumber, too, while you're at it.
<titter>
--
Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.
On 4/27/2010 10:42 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Just be careful how far you take principles. Sure - a cross grain joint is
> inherently inferior to a joint where the grain runs in the same direction -
> but will you ever notice that? For centuries, cross grain joints have been
> in use and have served very well. You can take the theory too far and get
> all caught up in what you should not do. Net result - analysis paralysis.
> You'll never build anything. The governing factor should be whether the
> particular joint, or technique is sufficient for the task at hand, not
> whether it is the best theoretical approach. A good guiding light is the
> preponderance of evidence of eons of time. Ignore all the rest.
Bingo!!
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
On 4/27/2010 9:30 AM, Winston wrote:
> Larry, can I use regular wood glue to bond inner fibers of PT doug fir?
> Would epoxy work better? Some other adhesive perhaps?
Take this to the bank: use a "construction adhesive" that is formulated
for pressure treated wood.
One that immediately comes to mind, and should be easy to find at the
BORG, is "Liquid Nails - Subfloor".
Simply put, disregard anything else you read on this issue in this
thread about gluing with other types of woodworking glues ...
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
Winston wrote:
> On 4/27/2010 6:51 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 01:43:14 -0400, the infamous "J. Clarke"
>> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>>
>>> On 4/27/2010 12:36 AM, Winston wrote:
>
> (...)
>
>>>> Whups. I guessed that the chemical treatment penetration would
>>>> be shallow enough that the core would remain reasonably unaffected.
>>>> I was thinking on the order of say 1/4" depth max.
>>>> I will have to check into this. Thanks for the heads up.
>>>
>>> The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way
>>> through.
>>
>> YOU, sir, have obviously never cut a pressure treated piece of lumber
>> in half. The core is never, in my experience, fully treated. Copper
>> solutions only penetrate about 1/4", as discussed above.
>
> So, I learned *two* things this week.
> They are mutually contradictory, but I stand by my count.
>
> :)
>
> Larry, can I use regular wood glue to bond inner fibers of PT doug
> fir? Would epoxy work better? Some other adhesive perhaps?
Butting in, any glue will glue but some glue better. PVA (white glue) is no
good around water. Aliphatic ("yellow glue") may or not be OK...type one
isn't good around water; type 2 is "water resisant" which should be fine;
type 3 is waterproof.
Also water proof are epoxy, Resorcinol, and urea-formaldehyde glues such as
Weldwood Plastic Resin. All are overkill for your project IMO.
Epoxy is good for joining less than good joints when it is thickened with
something like Cab-o-Sil.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
In article <[email protected]>,
Larry Jaques <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Mon, 26 Apr 2010 20:14:21 -0500, the infamous
>[email protected] (Robert Bonomi) scrawled the following:
>
>>>Hi, Robert.
>>>
>>>I may revisit this approach, particularly if I can find a circular
>>>saw blade with a very wide kerf (1/4" or wider?).
>>
>>I suppose you could put two blades on the saw. *grin*
>>an actual dado set, "wobble" or otherwise, is definitely not a good idea,
>
>Yeah, and if one's installed backwards, it'll cut well on the return
>stroke, huh? <chortle>
Awright, wiseacre! You *do* know that somebody actually makes a hand circular
saw with two *counter-rotating* blades on it, don't you?
>>I'll merely point out that you don't _need_ "flat" surfaces, just that
>>the two surfaces to be joined 'match". This -is- easier to do, with a
>>bit of 'lay them to together and see where they bind'.
>
>Yes you do need flat. Wavy surfaces don't glue-up well. Curved is OK
>if they mate, but "fairly flat" is a necessity.
No, you do _not_ need flat. Consider a dovetail joint -- no flat surfaces
whatsoever. The _only_ requirement is that they mate up well.
The _easiest_ way to ensure a good mating it to make both surfaces flat,
but it is -not- a requirement.