SawStop vs. Bosch-- Let the Games Begin!!

On 3/16/2015 3:20 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Monday, March 16, 2015 at 12:47:48 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>
>>
>> And if Bosch is successful is this good bye to the belligerent brands
>> that chose to not incorporate the technology? Saws with this feature,
>> Bosch and SawStop just might attract ALL of the consumers. Bosch has a
>> slight advantage in that it offers the safety feature and does not carry
>> the burden that SawStop has with those that refuse to buy the SawStop
>> brand regardless of its benefits.
>
> Profoundly advantageous safety features may not be enough. I remember all the debate here and everywhere else, mostly built in lies and innuendo that had full grown men crying desperate tears over the loss of civil rights, screaming for the overthrow of the government, whispering about a grass roots backlash against the "jackbooted thugs" etc. Listening to their demands to water the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants, I got a little fired up myself and was going to join a local (maybe it was... maybe it wasn't...) militia.
>
> Then I realized all I had to do was to pick out the saw I wanted and buy that one, and at least some of my nanny state problems were solved. It was a quick fix.

Yeah I never could quite understand the fear, no one has to buy a
particular saw, just like no one has to buy a pick up truck, which have
certain government mandated features the automobiles don't. Use saws or
track saws would have been another option. I guess some wanted to be
able to buy a SawStop with out the safety feature....


>
> To me, the hardest thing that Bosch will have to overcome isn't copyright infringement, operating protocols, etc. that are at this point exhaustively researched for challenges by legions of engineers/lawyers. What saved SawStop from being a good idea that went nowhere was the fact that they are damn good saws. I used one to build a small set of cabinets and tables about 6 years ago and the saw I used was marvelous. It was "as shipped" from a local tool supply company and was set up (not tuned up) on site. Had to have been one of the best saws I have ever used. The guy that takes care of it was shop teacher and about 3 years ago he told me that in his high school shop, it was still as well running and accurate as when I used it.

IIRC many years ago I saw a prototype SawStop TS and I could swear it
looked exactly like a Powermatic 2000 other than color. I don't think
Bosch would have too much of an issue building big iron machines as they
are a long established company and they could do as SawStop, Powermatic,
and Jet do, have China/Taiwan build the saw to their specs.
As you said the trick will be getting copyrights. Maybe they have made
a deal with SawStop...






> I can see contractor "site saw" like some are making these days getting great benefit from that technology, but don't know that they will be able to hit any kind of workable price point.

I can see that being a great direction to go, contractor saws on job sites.


> As far as a cabinet grade or professional shop grade tool, seems Bosch would be starting from square one. I have never seen Bosch big iron in a woodworking (auto, yes) environment although I have several of their hand tools. I think it would be a long haul to get to the point where they could create and sustain a market for a new professional table saw, but possbily even longer to get to the kind of quality that SawStop is putting out.

SawStop did it, but then SawStop really had no competition with these
features...

It will be real interesting to see how this all plays out. If Bosch is
successful there will be no excuse for others not to follow.

On 3/18/2015 7:00 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 12:23:16 -0500
> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized bade,
>
> SS destrroys the blade when deployed?
> didnt know that

That is not a certainty but I would certainly return the blade to the
manufacturer with details and an estimate to restore. I understand that
some have been repaired.
I am not sure that realistically it will matter one way or another.
Considering the fact that you save a trip to the ER the cost of a new
blade and brake does not even factor in if you screw up.
For certain the Bosch will be less expensive for every owner to perform
the weenie test. ;~)


>
> A few things come to mind with these "saftey" features.
>
> the study about anti-lock breaking not having the effect that
> was expected. There was a reduction in collisions but not anywhere
> near industry projections
>
> in other words people took more chances because their car came
> with ABS, over confident in the ABS

There are those that look at it that way but if you test the limits of
your anti lock brakes by driving more recklessly there is a big
possibility that you are going to do something else that is stupid which
will kill you. I don't buy it myself. I'm not one to look down the
barrel of a gun and pull the trigger because I know the safety is on....


>
> another thought, I think it's cirrus planes that have a
> ballistic chute attached to the airframe***
> but you pull that and insurance says plane is a total loss

LOL... I bet there are those that would not want that feature to save
their lives to keep from totaling the airplane..

>
> and yet another is all the extra cost/complexity worth it
> has it reduced accidents or do saw operators take more risks

For me absolutely the SawStop was worth the price. 3 table saws ago I
cut half my thumb off on my TS. No one could believe that happened to
ME. I was pretty strict safety.

Unfortunately I am not up on the 1,342,657,345,343,001 possible ways to
harm your self with a TS. I don't believe anyone else is either. Then
add to that no one is perfect and some times we work a little too
long... There are countless reasons. Anyway I can afford it so I
bought it. I really don't want to go to the ER again. FWIW I had
turned my saw off before cutting my thumb. Yes it was a dumb mistake
and one I repeated one year later. It all happened so fast I had no
idea what happened. Fortunately when I repeated the mistake 1 year
later I did not have as much thumb in harms way and only felt the breeze
of the blade as it was coasting down to a stop.



>
> does removing the need to use tools responsibly make more
> irresponsible operators

I would say for the vast majority no. For those that throw caution to
the wind, if this does not get them something else will.
And FWIW putting a blade brake on a saw does not guarantee not being harmed.


>
>
> ***that feature did sell a lot of planes but all the data on
> plane accidents and incidents (and there's a lot of data!)
> shows that high 90 percent are due to pilot error
> ok sure pull the chute when you screw up and walk away
> maybe, not all have survived even after chute deployment
> I recall an incident early on when poor guy pulled it
> and discovered the hard way that the wind was blowing
> 25knots at ground level

On 3/18/2015 8:12 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 17:00:58 -0700, Electric Comet
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 12:23:16 -0500
>> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized bade,
>>
>> SS destrroys the blade when deployed?
>
> And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull your
> hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with it. ;-)
>
> <...>
>
Wow that should be in Bosch's and SawStops sales pitch.

On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 13:47:37 -0400, Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 3/24/2015 10:43 AM, Max wrote:
>
>>>
>>> for another case of safety features with lots of data look at NFL
>>> injuries went way up after they started using helmets, etc.
>>> in other words the operators tested the limits
>>> many have paid the price
>>>
>>> long winded point is just that safety features can blur the fundamentals
>>>
>>
>> It occurs to me to wonder how many people there might be who have become
>> more aware of their vehicles limitations because of the emphasis on ABS.
>>
>
>You mean like the 4WD SUV's that drivers feel can still go 70 mph on an
>icy road? Four wheel drive does not mean four wheel stop. Strictly
>anecdotal, but I've seen more of them in the ditch than regular cars.

I had a 4WD pickup when we lived in VT. When it snowed I would tell
my wife that I had 4WD so could drive anywhere. I then told her that
it was an "Off Road" truck, so I could also drive it off the road. It
took her a few times before she understood what I was saying. ;-)

On 3/21/2015 5:58 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Mar 2015 14:23:38 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 3/21/2015 11:09 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 23:28:50 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/18/2015 8:56 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> On 3/18/15 8:55 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 20:15:38 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3/18/15 8:12 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 17:00:58 -0700, Electric Comet
>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 12:23:16 -0500 -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized
>>>>>>>>>> bade,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> SS destrroys the blade when deployed?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull
>>>>>>>> your hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with it.
>>>>>>>> ;-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <...>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You'll do the same with the Bosch, except you'll be right back to work
>>>>>>> after switching the brake firing mechanism around because it works
>>>>>>> twice, instead of once. PLUS you won't be out a blade.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sure. Wake me up when it comes on a real saw.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know about you, but I don't want to carry my cabinet saw out to
>>>>> a work site.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> No kidding.... I think it was very wise of Bosch to go for the
>>>> contractor market as those guys are the ones that spend the most hours
>>>> in a day and working in locations that are not great.
>>>> Between Bosch and SawStop I think there is going to be faster
>>>> acceptance/switch to these saws than the stationary units.
>>>>
>>> Maybe but I haven't seen a table saw at a (new construction) job site
>>> in probably fifty years. The last two homes we've had have been in
>>> new developments, so construction is all around us. Not a table saw
>>> to be heard. ;-) With all of the alternatives, today, why would one
>>> be needed? Construction isn't cabinetmaking, after all.
>>>
>> You see plenty of TS's at remodeling jobs and especially ones where
>> prefab cabs are being torn out and replaced with job built.
>
> The above video was clearly of new construction rough carpentry.
>

Well you know, you may not have a complete picture of how all trades
operate everywhere in the country. While I agree that there is less
need for a TS the way homes are built these days true custom homes still
have trimmers and carpenters that use TS's on site. Swingman built a
custom home about 5 years ago and while he and I did prebuild the
kitchen cabinets off site he did have a bench top TS on site. I highly
suspect flooring guys would have one too given the fact that you are
going to have to rip some pieces.
And, both SawStop and Bosch both now have similar saws intended to be
used on construction sites with built in stands that go up and down
stairs. I doubt that either flipped a coin for deciding whether to
target this market with their product or not. And given that, with a
safer portable TS available the tide may change and contractors may
decide to have a TS, which can rip and cross cut, vs. a miter saw that
can only cut to length and a circular saw for ripping.

On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 17:00:58 -0700, Electric Comet
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 12:23:16 -0500
>-MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized bade,
>
>SS destrroys the blade when deployed?

And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull your
hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with it. ;-)

<...>

On Monday, March 23, 2015 at 12:13:09 PM UTC-4, Electric Comet wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 20:36:38 -0400
> Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
>=20
> > Yeah, yeah, yeah, that has been hashed to death with no evidence to=20
> > prove it. IMO, you may be more careful knowing a trip could save
> > your fingers but cost you $200 for cartridge and blade.
> >=20
>=20
> No evidence to prove which
> That safety features make operators more responsible
> or it makes them less responsible
>=20
>=20
> there are mountains of data that show drivers of cars with ABS
> were driving more aggressively and taking more risks with
> stopping/breaking
>=20

Correlation does not imply causation.

I haven't studied the data, so this is a question, not an argument:

Does the data clearly show that the drivers were being more aggressive *bec=
ause* the vehicles had ABS?=20

One could argue that along with ABS came many other technological enhanceme=
nts related to handling, performance, etc. and those enhancements contribut=
ed more to the increase in aggressive driving than the ABS. Better braking =
systems in general may have contributed to more aggressive driving/braking,=
but can it be shown that it was specifically the ABS?=20

On 3/18/2015 3:41 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 16:12:14 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>> Here she is!
>> http://youtu.be/nbDf2dpQVIY
>
> Nice. Any suggested retail price available? And, as someone mentioned
> before, I'd love to see a professional model.
>

I'd love to see a professional model too....

A cabinet saw with that feature would be nice. ;-)

On 3/23/2015 10:15 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 17:40:56 -0500
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
>> I kind'a don't believe that the anti lock brakes cause wreckless
>
> Reworded it sounds like you misunderstood to begin with
>
> It's a high profile example look it up if you care
>
> the point stands and I stand by it
> the safety features that are perceived as eliminating all or
> most all the dangers will be tested by the operators
> that's human nature
>
>
> whether that's breaking way later in the case of cars or flying
> in weather you'd have avoided without your ballistic chute or
> being less mindful of where the blade is on the table saw with
> flesh detection
> it will be tested
>
> I like ABS brakes and they are a really good idea
> I like the flesh detection but don't want it but it's a good idea
> and will get better but i still think operators should learn
> the basics of the tools and materials and know that safety features
> don't replace the need for being mindful of high speed steel
>
>
>
> for another case of safety features with lots of data look at NFL
> injuries went way up after they started using helmets, etc.
> in other words the operators tested the limits
> many have paid the price
>
> long winded point is just that safety features can blur the fundamentals
>

It occurs to me to wonder how many people there might be who have become
more aware of their vehicles limitations because of the emphasis on ABS.

On 3/24/2015 9:50 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Max wrote:
>
>>
>> It occurs to me to wonder how many people there might be who have
>> become more aware of their vehicles limitations because of the
>> emphasis on ABS.
>
> I would argue that less have become more aware. I would argue that the
> technology has created a (false) confidence in them which encourages them to
> simply trust in the technology, and drive them further away from really
> understanding the limitiations and the dynamics of driving a car. Look at
> how it works today - they simply stand on the brake with the trust that the
> car will take care of the situation. They don't even understand why pulsing
> or pumping a brake is of value.
>

I even wonder how many drivers know what ABS is. ;-)

On 3/24/2015 11:47 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 3/24/2015 10:43 AM, Max wrote:
>
>>>
>>> for another case of safety features with lots of data look at NFL
>>> injuries went way up after they started using helmets, etc.
>>> in other words the operators tested the limits
>>> many have paid the price
>>>
>>> long winded point is just that safety features can blur the fundamentals
>>>
>>
>> It occurs to me to wonder how many people there might be who have become
>> more aware of their vehicles limitations because of the emphasis on ABS.
>>
>
> You mean like the 4WD SUV's that drivers feel can still go 70 mph on an
> icy road? Four wheel drive does not mean four wheel stop. Strictly
> anecdotal, but I've seen more of them in the ditch than regular cars.

We have a winner, folks.

On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 15:57:57 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>As you said the trick will be getting copyrights. Maybe they have made
>a deal with SawStop...

Or maybe, Bosch has locked up the rest of the open patents so between
them both, they've got it all locked up.

On 3/19/2015 7:25 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Mar 2015 09:03:59 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 3/19/2015 7:44 AM, hubops wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized bade,
>>>>>
>>>>> SS destrroys the blade when deployed?
>>>>
>>>> And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull your
>>>> hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with it. ;-)
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The few SawStop mechanisms that I've sold - were all due to
>>> " non personal " contact - ie : wet wood and metal ..
>>> John T.
>>>
>>>
>>> --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: [email protected] ---
>>>
>>
>>
>> Which reminds me, I need to call SS and inquire into the details of
>> cutting wet wood. I have cut wet wood and the saw simply shut down
>> after cutting a few inches. It continued to do this until I used the
>> over ride switch. But I wonder what is going to happen if I cut into my
>> aluminum miter fence...
>
> Gee, Leon. Who would do such a thing? ;-)
>

That is how you tell if it is aluminum or iron! :~)

On 3/18/2015 8:56 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 3/18/15 8:55 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 20:15:38 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/18/15 8:12 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 17:00:58 -0700, Electric Comet
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 12:23:16 -0500 -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized
>>>>>> bade,
>>>>>
>>>>> SS destrroys the blade when deployed?
>>>>
>>>> And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull
>>>> your hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with it.
>>>> ;-)
>>>>
>>>> <...>
>>>>
>>>
>>> You'll do the same with the Bosch, except you'll be right back to work
>>> after switching the brake firing mechanism around because it works
>>> twice, instead of once. PLUS you won't be out a blade.
>>
>> Sure. Wake me up when it comes on a real saw.
>>
>
> I don't know about you, but I don't want to carry my cabinet saw out to
> a work site.
>
>
No kidding.... I think it was very wise of Bosch to go for the
contractor market as those guys are the ones that spend the most hours
in a day and working in locations that are not great.
Between Bosch and SawStop I think there is going to be faster
acceptance/switch to these saws than the stationary units.

On 3/23/2015 5:11 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Electric Comet wrote:
>
>>
>> there are mountains of data that show drivers of cars with ABS
>> were driving more aggressively and taking more risks with
>> stopping/breaking
>>
>
> Ok - I have to call Bullshit on this one - sorry. I believe there may be
> some data that suggests that drivers became more complacent - or more
> ignorant with the advent of ABS, but I'm not ready to buy into the claim
> that there are mountains of data that show they simply drove more
> aggressively. You'll have to defend that assertion a bit more to convince
> me. Don't draw conclusions - simply show that data that you say there is
> mountains of.

I kind'a don't believe that the anti lock brakes cause wreckless
behavior either. I bet if you really could analyze "ALL" the
situations, not that which only data was gathered on, it would probably
show that these more modern vehicles with anti lock brakes also have two
to three times more HP than models with out. There is absolutely more
HP on the road today than there probably ever has been. I guarantee you
more HP is going to translate to higher speeds during a crash and if the
vehicle is not physically capable of stopping in a short distance anti
lock brakes most likely will not prevent a crash either. If you removed
the anti lock brakes from all modern cars you most likely would see even
more wrecks than now.

On 3/19/2015 12:18 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 20:36:38 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
>> Yeah, yeah, yeah, that has been hashed to death with no evidence to
>> prove it. IMO, you may be more careful knowing a trip could save your
>> fingers but cost you $200 for cartridge and blade.
>
> This entire topic has been hashed to death! Couldn't you all just refer
> folks to the posts you made the last time Sawstop was mentioned?
>


So has the entire topic of woodworking. This is current and well worth
repeating if some one is interested.

If I hear of another comment about the ancient art of hand planing,
which has been discussed for hundreds of years I'm..... ;~)

On 3/18/2015 8:00 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 12:23:16 -0500
> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized bade,
>
> SS destrroys the blade when deployed?
> didnt know that

Cheap compared to cutting off you hand.
>
> A few things come to mind with these "saftey" features.
>


>
> does removing the need to use tools responsibly make more
> irresponsible operators
>

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that has been hashed to death with no evidence to
prove it. IMO, you may be more careful knowing a trip could save your
fingers but cost you $200 for cartridge and blade.

On 3/19/2015 7:44 AM, hubops wrote:
>
>>>
>>>> Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized bade,
>>>
>>> SS destrroys the blade when deployed?
>>
>> And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull your
>> hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with it. ;-)
>>
>
>
> The few SawStop mechanisms that I've sold - were all due to
> " non personal " contact - ie : wet wood and metal ..
> John T.
>
>
> --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: [email protected] ---
>


Which reminds me, I need to call SS and inquire into the details of
cutting wet wood. I have cut wet wood and the saw simply shut down
after cutting a few inches. It continued to do this until I used the
over ride switch. But I wonder what is going to happen if I cut into my
aluminum miter fence...

On 3/19/2015 9:32 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 3/18/15 11:25 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 3/18/2015 8:15 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 3/18/15 8:12 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 17:00:58 -0700, Electric Comet
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 12:23:16 -0500 -MIKE-
>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized
>>>>>> bade,
>>>>>
>>>>> SS destrroys the blade when deployed?
>>>>
>>>> And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull
>>>> your hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with
>>>> it. ;-)
>>>>
>>>> <...>
>>>>
>>>
>>> You'll do the same with the Bosch, except you'll be right back to
>>> work after switching the brake firing mechanism around because it
>>> works twice, instead of once. PLUS you won't be out a blade.
>>
>> But as you well know the double use feature will create a false sense
>> of security. ;~) You know when when you have a flat tire and open
>> the trunk and realize that the spare is on the ground already. ;~)
>> The cartridge trips and no worries until you realize that you have
>> already performed the hot dog demonstration once before. ;~)
>>
>> It is a cool feature of not damaging the blade but if that feature is
>> important to you, you have my nod to buy that particular saw to
>> begin with. It sounds like you already know you are going to need
>> it.
>>
>
> That could be said of the SawStop, too. I have no (hot)dog in this
> race, but to me if all other things are equal, the Bosch wins. We won't
> know until some of the magazines and websites do some good side-by-side
> comparisons which one is a better saw, taking into consideration aspects
> other than the safety-brake.
>
>
I was just kidding. ;~)

On 3/19/2015 7:03 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 3/19/2015 7:44 AM, hubops wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>>> Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized bade,
>>>>
>>>> SS destrroys the blade when deployed?
>>>
>>> And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull your
>>> hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with it. ;-)
>>>
>>
>>
>> The few SawStop mechanisms that I've sold - were all due to
>> " non personal " contact - ie : wet wood and metal ..
>> John T.
>>
>>
>> --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: [email protected] ---
>>
>
>
> Which reminds me, I need to call SS and inquire into the details of
> cutting wet wood. I have cut wet wood and the saw simply shut down
> after cutting a few inches. It continued to do this until I used the
> over ride switch. But I wonder what is going to happen if I cut into my
> aluminum miter fence...

A friend of mine has already 'tried that experiment'. He has the
blade/brake combo hanging on his shop wall.


Dan

On Monday, March 16, 2015 at 12:47:48 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

>=20
> And if Bosch is successful is this good bye to the belligerent brands=20
> that chose to not incorporate the technology? Saws with this feature,=20
> Bosch and SawStop just might attract ALL of the consumers. Bosch has a=
=20
> slight advantage in that it offers the safety feature and does not carry=
=20
> the burden that SawStop has with those that refuse to buy the SawStop=20
> brand regardless of its benefits.

Profoundly advantageous safety features may not be enough. I remember all =
the debate here and everywhere else, mostly built in lies and innuendo that=
had full grown men crying desperate tears over the loss of civil rights, s=
creaming for the overthrow of the government, whispering about a grass root=
s backlash against the "jackbooted thugs" etc. Listening to their demands =
to water the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants, I got a little fire=
d up myself and was going to join a local (maybe it was... maybe it wasn't.=
..) militia.

Then I realized all I had to do was to pick out the saw I wanted and buy th=
at one, and at least some of my nanny state problems were solved. It was a=
quick fix. =20

To me, the hardest thing that Bosch will have to overcome isn't copyright i=
nfringement, operating protocols, etc. that are at this point exhaustively =
researched for challenges by legions of engineers/lawyers. What saved SawS=
top from being a good idea that went nowhere was the fact that they are dam=
n good saws. I used one to build a small set of cabinets and tables about =
6 years ago and the saw I used was marvelous. It was "as shipped" from a l=
ocal tool supply company and was set up (not tuned up) on site. Had to hav=
e been one of the best saws I have ever used. The guy that takes care of i=
t was shop teacher and about 3 years ago he told me that in his high schoo=
l shop, it was still as well running and accurate as when I used it.

I can see contractor "site saw" like some are making these days getting gre=
at benefit from that technology, but don't know that they will be able to h=
it any kind of workable price point.

As far as a cabinet grade or professional shop grade tool, seems Bosch woul=
d be starting from square one. I have never seen Bosch big iron in a woodw=
orking (auto, yes) environment although I have several of their hand tools.=
I think it would be a long haul to get to the point where they could crea=
te and sustain a market for a new professional table saw, but possbily even=
longer to get to the kind of quality that SawStop is putting out.

Robert

On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 23:28:50 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 3/18/2015 8:56 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 3/18/15 8:55 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 20:15:38 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/18/15 8:12 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 17:00:58 -0700, Electric Comet
>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 12:23:16 -0500 -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized
>>>>>>> bade,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> SS destrroys the blade when deployed?
>>>>>
>>>>> And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull
>>>>> your hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with it.
>>>>> ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> <...>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You'll do the same with the Bosch, except you'll be right back to work
>>>> after switching the brake firing mechanism around because it works
>>>> twice, instead of once. PLUS you won't be out a blade.
>>>
>>> Sure. Wake me up when it comes on a real saw.
>>>
>>
>> I don't know about you, but I don't want to carry my cabinet saw out to
>> a work site.
>>
>>
>No kidding.... I think it was very wise of Bosch to go for the
>contractor market as those guys are the ones that spend the most hours
>in a day and working in locations that are not great.
>Between Bosch and SawStop I think there is going to be faster
>acceptance/switch to these saws than the stationary units.
>
Maybe but I haven't seen a table saw at a (new construction) job site
in probably fifty years. The last two homes we've had have been in
new developments, so construction is all around us. Not a table saw
to be heard. ;-) With all of the alternatives, today, why would one
be needed? Construction isn't cabinetmaking, after all.

On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 20:15:38 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 3/18/15 8:12 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 17:00:58 -0700, Electric Comet
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 12:23:16 -0500 -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized
>>>> bade,
>>>
>>> SS destrroys the blade when deployed?
>>
>> And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull
>> your hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with it.
>> ;-)
>>
>> <...>
>>
>
>You'll do the same with the Bosch, except you'll be right back to work
>after switching the brake firing mechanism around because it works
>twice, instead of once. PLUS you won't be out a blade.

Sure. Wake me up when it comes on a real saw.

On Sat, 21 Mar 2015 14:23:38 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 3/21/2015 11:09 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 23:28:50 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/18/2015 8:56 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 3/18/15 8:55 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 20:15:38 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/18/15 8:12 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 17:00:58 -0700, Electric Comet
>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 12:23:16 -0500 -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized
>>>>>>>>> bade,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> SS destrroys the blade when deployed?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull
>>>>>>> your hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with it.
>>>>>>> ;-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <...>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You'll do the same with the Bosch, except you'll be right back to work
>>>>>> after switching the brake firing mechanism around because it works
>>>>>> twice, instead of once. PLUS you won't be out a blade.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sure. Wake me up when it comes on a real saw.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I don't know about you, but I don't want to carry my cabinet saw out to
>>>> a work site.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> No kidding.... I think it was very wise of Bosch to go for the
>>> contractor market as those guys are the ones that spend the most hours
>>> in a day and working in locations that are not great.
>>> Between Bosch and SawStop I think there is going to be faster
>>> acceptance/switch to these saws than the stationary units.
>>>
>> Maybe but I haven't seen a table saw at a (new construction) job site
>> in probably fifty years. The last two homes we've had have been in
>> new developments, so construction is all around us. Not a table saw
>> to be heard. ;-) With all of the alternatives, today, why would one
>> be needed? Construction isn't cabinetmaking, after all.
>>
>You see plenty of TS's at remodeling jobs and especially ones where
>prefab cabs are being torn out and replaced with job built.

The above video was clearly of new construction rough carpentry.

On Tuesday, March 24, 2015 at 2:29:49 PM UTC-4, Max wrote:
> On 3/24/2015 11:47 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> > On 3/24/2015 10:43 AM, Max wrote:
> >
> >>>
> >>> for another case of safety features with lots of data look at NFL
> >>> injuries went way up after they started using helmets, etc.
> >>> in other words the operators tested the limits
> >>> many have paid the price
> >>>
> >>> long winded point is just that safety features can blur the fundament=
als
> >>>
> >>
> >> It occurs to me to wonder how many people there might be who have beco=
me
> >> more aware of their vehicles limitations because of the emphasis on AB=
S.
> >>
> >
> > You mean like the 4WD SUV's that drivers feel can still go 70 mph on an
> > icy road? Four wheel drive does not mean four wheel stop. Strictly
> > anecdotal, but I've seen more of them in the ditch than regular cars.
>=20
> We have a winner, folks.

A few years ago SWMBO and I were white knuckling it on a 2 lane highway dur=
ing a blizzard. We were moving along slow but smooth with the rest of the t=
raffic, doing maybe 20 MPH.

Suddenly, an SUV goes sailing past us on the right hand shoulder, kicking u=
p snow and scaring the crap out of us and others. You could see brakes ligh=
ts go on as the SUV startled the drivers he was passing. SWMBO and I wished=
ill upon the SUV driver for being such an A-hole. I'm sure we were not alo=
ne.

A few miles down the road, traffic was reduced to a crawl. As we proceeded =
slowly along with the other cars, we started to hear horns beeping. Then, j=
ust ahead, we saw the headlights of the SUV pointing across the highway, wh=
ile his rear wheels were stuck in the ditch. All of the folks he had passed=
were honking their horns to say "Hi!" as they drove right by, leaving him =
in the ditch. I, too, sounded a hardy greeting.

On Thursday, March 19, 2015 at 9:59:15 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:

...snip...
> I try to never use the TS when some one comes up to=20
> visit me in my garage unless they are actually there to help.

That reminds of what I told SWMBO many years ago, after she startled me by =
pounding loudly on the shop door while it was very quiet and I was just sta=
nding there thinking.

"If you don't hear the sound of a power tool, please don't pound on the doo=
r because it will startle me. If you do hear the sound of a power tool, ple=
ase don't pound on the door because it will startle me. Being startled when=
it's quiet is annoying. Being startled when it's noisy is dangerous."

On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 16:12:14 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>Here she is!
>http://youtu.be/nbDf2dpQVIY

Nice. Any suggested retail price available? And, as someone mentioned
before, I'd love to see a professional model.

"Dave in SoTex" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>>>SS destroys the blade when deployed?
>>
>> And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull your
>> hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with it. ;-)
>
> I went ahead and ordered a replacement cartridge when I bought my SS -
> it was $69 for a 10-inch cartridge and $89 for the 8-inch dado cartridge.
> Money well spent I'd say.

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/839901/SawStop-10-Brake-Cartridge.aspx
http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/839902/SawStop-8-Dado-Brake-Cartridge.aspx

On 3/21/2015 11:09 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 23:28:50 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 3/18/2015 8:56 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 3/18/15 8:55 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 20:15:38 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/18/15 8:12 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 17:00:58 -0700, Electric Comet
>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 12:23:16 -0500 -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized
>>>>>>>> bade,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> SS destrroys the blade when deployed?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull
>>>>>> your hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with it.
>>>>>> ;-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <...>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You'll do the same with the Bosch, except you'll be right back to work
>>>>> after switching the brake firing mechanism around because it works
>>>>> twice, instead of once. PLUS you won't be out a blade.
>>>>
>>>> Sure. Wake me up when it comes on a real saw.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don't know about you, but I don't want to carry my cabinet saw out to
>>> a work site.
>>>
>>>
>> No kidding.... I think it was very wise of Bosch to go for the
>> contractor market as those guys are the ones that spend the most hours
>> in a day and working in locations that are not great.
>> Between Bosch and SawStop I think there is going to be faster
>> acceptance/switch to these saws than the stationary units.
>>
> Maybe but I haven't seen a table saw at a (new construction) job site
> in probably fifty years. The last two homes we've had have been in
> new developments, so construction is all around us. Not a table saw
> to be heard. ;-) With all of the alternatives, today, why would one
> be needed? Construction isn't cabinetmaking, after all.
>
You see plenty of TS's at remodeling jobs and especially ones where
prefab cabs are being torn out and replaced with job built.

Om craiglist locally a SS contractors saw

http://carbondale.craigslist.org/tls/4938152999.html

On Thu, 19 Mar 2015 09:03:59 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 3/19/2015 7:44 AM, hubops wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>>> Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized bade,
>>>>
>>>> SS destrroys the blade when deployed?
>>>
>>> And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull your
>>> hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with it. ;-)
>>>
>>
>>
>> The few SawStop mechanisms that I've sold - were all due to
>> " non personal " contact - ie : wet wood and metal ..
>> John T.
>>
>>
>> --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: [email protected] ---
>>
>
>
>Which reminds me, I need to call SS and inquire into the details of
>cutting wet wood. I have cut wet wood and the saw simply shut down
>after cutting a few inches. It continued to do this until I used the
>over ride switch. But I wonder what is going to happen if I cut into my
>aluminum miter fence...

Gee, Leon. Who would do such a thing? ;-)

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...


>>SS destroys the blade when deployed?
>
> And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull your
> hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with it. ;-)

I went ahead and ordered a replacement cartridge when I bought my SS -
it was $69 for a 10-inch cartridge and $89 for the 8-inch dado cartridge.
Money well spent I'd say.

Dave in SoTex

On 3/18/2015 7:56 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 3/18/15 6:43 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 3/18/2015 4:12 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 3/16/15 12:23 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> It seems Bosch has built the better mouse trap. Their brake
>>>> doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized bade, including
>>>> dado sets. I wonder what the lawyer fees amount to? :-)
>>>>
>>>> <http://www.woodmagazine.com/blogs/woodworking-blog/2015/03/16/bosch-develops-tablesaw-with-blade-brake-safety/>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Here she is!
>>>
>>> http://youtu.be/nbDf2dpQVIY
>>>
>>
>> Interesting, and also interesting more expensive than the SawStop by
>> a few hundred dollars. The SS seems to have a lot of cool features.
>>
>> http://www.sawstop.com/table-saws/by-model/jobsite-saw#overview
>
> The Bosch had a lot of cool features, too, from what I could tell.
> Also, I don't know what the SawStop MSRP is, but I'm thinking they are
> like Festool in that they don't allow much discounting by the retailer.

I think you are right about not having wiggle room for pricing but
surprisingly Woodcraft has the SawStop on their site for $1299.00.
http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/862994/SawStop-Jobsite-Saw-wCart-and-Fence.aspx





>
> The Bosch may indeed sell for the same as the SawStop out the door.
> We shall see.
>
>

On 3/24/2015 10:43 AM, Max wrote:

>>
>> for another case of safety features with lots of data look at NFL
>> injuries went way up after they started using helmets, etc.
>> in other words the operators tested the limits
>> many have paid the price
>>
>> long winded point is just that safety features can blur the fundamentals
>>
>
> It occurs to me to wonder how many people there might be who have become
> more aware of their vehicles limitations because of the emphasis on ABS.
>

You mean like the 4WD SUV's that drivers feel can still go 70 mph on an
icy road? Four wheel drive does not mean four wheel stop. Strictly
anecdotal, but I've seen more of them in the ditch than regular cars.

On 3/18/2015 11:06 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 3/18/15 10:54 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 3/18/2015 7:56 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 3/18/15 6:43 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>> On 3/18/2015 4:12 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> On 3/16/15 12:23 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>> It seems Bosch has built the better mouse trap. Their brake
>>>>>> doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized bade,
>>>>>> including dado sets. I wonder what the lawyer fees amount to?
>>>>>> :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <http://www.woodmagazine.com/blogs/woodworking-blog/2015/03/16/bosch-develops-tablesaw-with-blade-brake-safety/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Here she is!
>>>>>
>>>>> http://youtu.be/nbDf2dpQVIY
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Interesting, and also interesting more expensive than the SawStop
>>>> by a few hundred dollars. The SS seems to have a lot of cool
>>>> features.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.sawstop.com/table-saws/by-model/jobsite-saw#overview
>>>
>>> The Bosch had a lot of cool features, too, from what I could tell.
>>> Also, I don't know what the SawStop MSRP is, but I'm thinking they
>>> are like Festool in that they don't allow much discounting by the
>>> retailer.
>>
>> I think you are right about not having wiggle room for pricing but
>> surprisingly Woodcraft has the SawStop on their site for $1299.00.
>> http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/862994/SawStop-Jobsite-Saw-wCart-and-Fence.aspx
>>
>>
>>
>
> You just have to think the Bosch will sell for that price in the store.
> I don't see them going through the trouble to compete with the only
> other saw that does the same thing, without competing in price, too.
>
>
It will be interesting to see if the pricing equalizes. But you know
Bosch is a German company like Festool. They may feel that their saw is
worth the extra cash, and it may very well be. It might be smarter to
be a bit more expensive especially if it compares equally to the
SawStop. Someone always sells the same features for more money, it may
as well be Bosch.

On 3/16/15 12:47 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 3/16/2015 12:23 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> It seems Bosch has built the better mouse trap. Their brake doesn't
>> destroy the blade and works on any sized bade, including dado
>> sets. I wonder what the lawyer fees amount to? :-)
>>
>> <http://www.woodmagazine.com/blogs/woodworking-blog/2015/03/16/bosch-develops-tablesaw-with-blade-brake-safety/>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> Cool!
>
> The games that begin may in fact be in the courts. SawStop has
> countless patents on their design, including the blade dropping below
> the surface.
>
> If they have not infringed on any patents this may in fact be the
> better mouse trap. My gut feeling has always been that SawStop drops
> the blade so that the belts go slack and the brake only has to stop
> the mass of the blade and not the motor too.
>
> Second issue will be if Bosch will try to compete on the same level.
> While SawStop has only been around for 15 or so years, and marketing
> for the past 7~10 years, they do have proven heavy duty tables saws,
> the pro cabinet saw and the industrial cabinet saw. It will be
> interesting to see of Bosch targets that market too or if they will
> stay with their bench top models.
>
> And if Bosch is successful is this good bye to the belligerent brands
> that chose to not incorporate the technology? Saws with this
> feature, Bosch and SawStop just might attract ALL of the consumers.
> Bosch has a slight advantage in that it offers the safety feature and
> does not carry the burden that SawStop has with those that refuse to
> buy the SawStop brand regardless of its benefits.
>

I'll tell you one thing, SawStop needs better demonstrators.

I just happened to walk into our local Woodcraft and there was a SawStop
guy there demonstrating the table saw. He had the blade all the way up
and when he started the saw it started making a horrible grinding
racket, then stopped abruptly. Turns out he has the blade too far up
and it was pressing into the table insert. I didn't know that was
possible but he did it. It tripped the built-in breaker and he couldn't
figure out how to reset it.

About 10 minutes later they figured it out and he did the hotdog trick.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 3/16/15 12:23 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> It seems Bosch has built the better mouse trap.
> Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized bade,
> including dado sets.
> I wonder what the lawyer fees amount to? :-)
>
> <http://www.woodmagazine.com/blogs/woodworking-blog/2015/03/16/bosch-develops-tablesaw-with-blade-brake-safety/>
>

Here she is!

http://youtu.be/nbDf2dpQVIY


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 3/18/15 4:41 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 16:12:14 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>> Here she is!
>> http://youtu.be/nbDf2dpQVIY
>
> Nice. Any suggested retail price available? And, as someone mentioned
> before, I'd love to see a professional model.
>

I saw $1500 MSLP on one site.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 12:23:16 -0500
-MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:

> Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized bade,

SS destrroys the blade when deployed?
didnt know that

A few things come to mind with these "saftey" features.

the study about anti-lock breaking not having the effect that
was expected. There was a reduction in collisions but not anywhere
near industry projections

in other words people took more chances because their car came
with ABS, over confident in the ABS

another thought, I think it's cirrus planes that have a
ballistic chute attached to the airframe***
but you pull that and insurance says plane is a total loss


and yet another is all the extra cost/complexity worth it
has it reduced accidents or do saw operators take more risks

does removing the need to use tools responsibly make more
irresponsible operators



***that feature did sell a lot of planes but all the data on
plane accidents and incidents (and there's a lot of data!)
shows that high 90 percent are due to pilot error
ok sure pull the chute when you screw up and walk away
maybe, not all have survived even after chute deployment
I recall an incident early on when poor guy pulled it
and discovered the hard way that the wind was blowing
25knots at ground level

On 3/18/15 6:43 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 3/18/2015 4:12 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 3/16/15 12:23 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> It seems Bosch has built the better mouse trap. Their brake
>>> doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized bade, including
>>> dado sets. I wonder what the lawyer fees amount to? :-)
>>>
>>> <http://www.woodmagazine.com/blogs/woodworking-blog/2015/03/16/bosch-develops-tablesaw-with-blade-brake-safety/>
>>>
>>
>> Here she is!
>>
>> http://youtu.be/nbDf2dpQVIY
>>
>
> Interesting, and also interesting more expensive than the SawStop by
> a few hundred dollars. The SS seems to have a lot of cool features.
>
> http://www.sawstop.com/table-saws/by-model/jobsite-saw#overview

The Bosch had a lot of cool features, too, from what I could tell.
Also, I don't know what the SawStop MSRP is, but I'm thinking they are
like Festool in that they don't allow much discounting by the retailer.

The Bosch may indeed sell for the same as the SawStop out the door.
We shall see.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 3/18/15 8:12 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 17:00:58 -0700, Electric Comet
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 12:23:16 -0500 -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized
>>> bade,
>>
>> SS destrroys the blade when deployed?
>
> And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull
> your hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with it.
> ;-)
>
> <...>
>

You'll do the same with the Bosch, except you'll be right back to work
after switching the brake firing mechanism around because it works
twice, instead of once. PLUS you won't be out a blade.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 3/18/15 8:55 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 20:15:38 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> On 3/18/15 8:12 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 17:00:58 -0700, Electric Comet
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 12:23:16 -0500 -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized
>>>>> bade,
>>>>
>>>> SS destrroys the blade when deployed?
>>>
>>> And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull
>>> your hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with it.
>>> ;-)
>>>
>>> <...>
>>>
>>
>> You'll do the same with the Bosch, except you'll be right back to work
>> after switching the brake firing mechanism around because it works
>> twice, instead of once. PLUS you won't be out a blade.
>
> Sure. Wake me up when it comes on a real saw.
>

I don't know about you, but I don't want to carry my cabinet saw out to
a work site.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 3/18/15 10:54 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 3/18/2015 7:56 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 3/18/15 6:43 PM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 3/18/2015 4:12 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 3/16/15 12:23 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>> It seems Bosch has built the better mouse trap. Their brake
>>>>> doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized bade,
>>>>> including dado sets. I wonder what the lawyer fees amount to?
>>>>> :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> <http://www.woodmagazine.com/blogs/woodworking-blog/2015/03/16/bosch-develops-tablesaw-with-blade-brake-safety/>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Here she is!
>>>>
>>>> http://youtu.be/nbDf2dpQVIY
>>>>
>>>
>>> Interesting, and also interesting more expensive than the SawStop
>>> by a few hundred dollars. The SS seems to have a lot of cool
>>> features.
>>>
>>> http://www.sawstop.com/table-saws/by-model/jobsite-saw#overview
>>
>> The Bosch had a lot of cool features, too, from what I could tell.
>> Also, I don't know what the SawStop MSRP is, but I'm thinking they
>> are like Festool in that they don't allow much discounting by the
>> retailer.
>
> I think you are right about not having wiggle room for pricing but
> surprisingly Woodcraft has the SawStop on their site for $1299.00.
> http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/862994/SawStop-Jobsite-Saw-wCart-and-Fence.aspx
>
>

You just have to think the Bosch will sell for that price in the store.
I don't see them going through the trouble to compete with the only
other saw that does the same thing, without competing in price, too.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 23:17:21 -0500
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:

> That is not a certainty but I would certainly return the blade to the
> manufacturer with details and an estimate to restore. I understand
> that some have been repaired.

What happens to the blade?
is it pinched and warped or something more violent


> I am not sure that realistically it will matter one way or another.
> Considering the fact that you save a trip to the ER the cost of a new
> blade and brake does not even factor in if you screw up.

Can't put a price on having all your original appendages
i didn't know how the SS worked other than I saw the gizmo at
the heart of it, the electronic part not the mechanical

> There are those that look at it that way but if you test the limits
> of your anti lock brakes by driving more recklessly there is a big
> possibility that you are going to do something else that is stupid

well they gather mountains of data because that's what insurance
companies do and these were not daredevils just normal drivers
that thought hey I have ABS so i can expect more from this car
it's a subtle thing that showed up after a lot of data

we will never get that data with tablesaws
i think the most important thing is to understand what's really
going on with any tool

people need to stop and think what forces are involved
what might happen if something goes wrong
which direction will it go, etc.

it comes easier to some than to others

> LOL... I bet there are those that would not want that feature to
> save their lives to keep from totaling the airplane..

no joke there're definitely pilots that see it as an impediment to
honing and keeping real pilot skills

but it sells more planes, funny thing is those planes without a
chute are really nice and much safer than the previous designs
but it comes down to good maintanence with planes

> For me absolutely the SawStop was worth the price. 3 table saws ago
> I cut half my thumb off on my TS. No one could believe that happened
> to ME. I was pretty strict safety.

sory to hear that


> Unfortunately I am not up on the 1,342,657,345,343,001 possible ways
> to harm your self with a TS. I don't believe anyone else is either.

It's potential to harm is great but it's overblown and I think that
is even a problem for a lot of folks, they fear the table saw and
operating it in fear is not good combo


> Then add to that no one is perfect and some times we work a little
> too long... There are countless reasons. Anyway I can afford it so
> I bought it. I really don't want to go to the ER again. FWIW I had

plus as I've seen you mention it's a well made saw


> I would say for the vast majority no. For those that throw caution
> to the wind, if this does not get them something else will.
> And FWIW putting a blade brake on a saw does not guarantee not being
> harmed.

I'm glad you said that because the mindset in the shop or around
power tools is very important

gotta know when to do something with potential for harm
I do most cutting early when I'm fresh but may be a luxury for some

if I'm distracted with something try to deal with it then get back
to the saw

On 3/18/15 11:25 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 3/18/2015 8:15 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 3/18/15 8:12 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 17:00:58 -0700, Electric Comet
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 12:23:16 -0500 -MIKE-
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized
>>>>> bade,
>>>>
>>>> SS destrroys the blade when deployed?
>>>
>>> And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull
>>> your hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with
>>> it. ;-)
>>>
>>> <...>
>>>
>>
>> You'll do the same with the Bosch, except you'll be right back to
>> work after switching the brake firing mechanism around because it
>> works twice, instead of once. PLUS you won't be out a blade.
>
> But as you well know the double use feature will create a false sense
> of security. ;~) You know when when you have a flat tire and open
> the trunk and realize that the spare is on the ground already. ;~)
> The cartridge trips and no worries until you realize that you have
> already performed the hot dog demonstration once before. ;~)
>
> It is a cool feature of not damaging the blade but if that feature is
> important to you, you have my nod to buy that particular saw to
> begin with. It sounds like you already know you are going to need
> it.
>

That could be said of the SawStop, too. I have no (hot)dog in this
race, but to me if all other things are equal, the Bosch wins. We won't
know until some of the magazines and websites do some good side-by-side
comparisons which one is a better saw, taking into consideration aspects
other than the safety-brake.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Dan Coby wrote:
> On 3/19/2015 7:03 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 3/19/2015 7:44 AM, hubops wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized bade,
>>>>>
>>>>> SS destrroys the blade when deployed?
>>>>
>>>> And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull your
>>>> hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with it. ;-)
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The few SawStop mechanisms that I've sold - were all due to
>>> " non personal " contact - ie : wet wood and metal ..
>>> John T.
>>>
>>>
>>> --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: [email protected] ---
>>>
>>
>>
>> Which reminds me, I need to call SS and inquire into the details of
>> cutting wet wood. I have cut wet wood and the saw simply shut down
>> after cutting a few inches. It continued to do this until I used the
>> over ride switch. But I wonder what is going to happen if I cut into my
>> aluminum miter fence...
>
> A friend of mine has already 'tried that experiment'. He has the
> blade/brake combo hanging on his shop wall.

Gosh, I could have warned him! ; )

>
>
> Dan

On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 17:00:58 -0700, Electric Comet wrote:

> SS destrroys the blade when deployed?
> didnt know that

It works by firing a block of aluminum up into the blade. It'd take one
heck of a sturdy blade to survive that! Even getting the block of
aluminum off of the blade is a bear.

On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 20:36:38 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

> Yeah, yeah, yeah, that has been hashed to death with no evidence to
> prove it. IMO, you may be more careful knowing a trip could save your
> fingers but cost you $200 for cartridge and blade.

This entire topic has been hashed to death! Couldn't you all just refer
folks to the posts you made the last time Sawstop was mentioned?

Leon wrote:
> On 3/19/2015 12:18 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
>> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 20:36:38 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>
>>> Yeah, yeah, yeah, that has been hashed to death with no evidence to
>>> prove it. IMO, you may be more careful knowing a trip could save your
>>> fingers but cost you $200 for cartridge and blade.
>>
>> This entire topic has been hashed to death! Couldn't you all just refer
>> folks to the posts you made the last time Sawstop was mentioned?
>>
>
>
> So has the entire topic of woodworking. This is current and well
> worth repeating if some one is interested.
>
> If I hear of another comment about the ancient art of hand planing,
> which has been discussed for hundreds of years I'm..... ;~)

Roland Johnson gave a great 1 hour talk on the art of refurbishing
ancient cast iron hand planes at the woodworking shows. Do you like the
wooden ones or the cast iron ones better? ; )

On 3/21/15 11:09 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 23:28:50 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 3/18/2015 8:56 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 3/18/15 8:55 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 20:15:38 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/18/15 8:12 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 17:00:58 -0700, Electric Comet
>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 12:23:16 -0500 -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized
>>>>>>>> bade,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> SS destrroys the blade when deployed?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull
>>>>>> your hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with it.
>>>>>> ;-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <...>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You'll do the same with the Bosch, except you'll be right back to work
>>>>> after switching the brake firing mechanism around because it works
>>>>> twice, instead of once. PLUS you won't be out a blade.
>>>>
>>>> Sure. Wake me up when it comes on a real saw.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don't know about you, but I don't want to carry my cabinet saw out to
>>> a work site.
>>>
>>>
>> No kidding.... I think it was very wise of Bosch to go for the
>> contractor market as those guys are the ones that spend the most hours
>> in a day and working in locations that are not great.
>> Between Bosch and SawStop I think there is going to be faster
>> acceptance/switch to these saws than the stationary units.
>>
> Maybe but I haven't seen a table saw at a (new construction) job site
> in probably fifty years. The last two homes we've had have been in
> new developments, so construction is all around us. Not a table saw
> to be heard. ;-) With all of the alternatives, today, why would one
> be needed? Construction isn't cabinetmaking, after all.
>

Funny, I see them around here all the time.
Mostly flooring guys using them to rip.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

[email protected] wrote in news:[email protected]:

> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 23:28:50 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>>>
>>No kidding.... I think it was very wise of Bosch to go for the
>>contractor market as those guys are the ones that spend the most hours
>>in a day and working in locations that are not great.
>>Between Bosch and SawStop I think there is going to be faster
>>acceptance/switch to these saws than the stationary units.
>>
> Maybe but I haven't seen a table saw at a (new construction) job site
> in probably fifty years. The last two homes we've had have been in
> new developments, so construction is all around us. Not a table saw
> to be heard. ;-) With all of the alternatives, today, why would one
> be needed? Construction isn't cabinetmaking, after all.
>
Did a big remodel (with addition) a few years back. I had a table saw on
site, and the contractor/carpenter used it extensively. Especially for
flooring

Cabinetry was done offsite, and I did the trim & baseboards.

--
-----------------------------------------------------
Free Software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
-----------------------------------------------------

On Thu, 19 Mar 2015 13:57:19 -0500
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:

> Ok, to be completely honest as to how this works the aluminum block
> is not fired. It is under spring tension and held in place by a
> fusable link. When the machine detects skin contact an electrical
> charge is sent to melt the fusable link and the spring pushes the
> aluminum part of the brake into the blade. The rotation of the blade
> does the rest, it naturally cuts and jams into the block like it
> would into a piece of wood.

Interesting implementation
wonder if this idea came from industry to if it's a novel idea/approach


>
> I have yet to see a blade destroy itself after this event, and I have
> seen it happen many times in demonstrations. Certainly the blade is
> damaged to some extent and may certainly not be worth repairing but
> is a far cry from being non survivable or destroyed.

damage is what
bent/warped blade or fractures or

> tooth. But again I would certainly want to have the blade checked
> out before reusing.

Who would check it out to your satisfaction and what would they charge

I would just try the blade and see if it works

BTW in the bosch video I thought I saw the blade out of balance or
off center when it was restarted
maybe it was just the logo on the blade


>
> Now having said all of this the force of the motor is gone when the
> blade drops and the brake trips so I am certain that this minimizes
> damage to both the blade and brake.

makes sense but like below depends on the blade

> Can the blade be reused if the safety system brake is activated?
> When the safety system activates, it will often damage one to two
> teeth on the blade. It is usually cost-effective to have high-quality
> blades repaired by a qualified blade sharpening service. However,
> less expensive blades should be discarded.

a visual inspection and a test run seems adequate

On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 20:36:38 -0400
Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:

> Yeah, yeah, yeah, that has been hashed to death with no evidence to
> prove it. IMO, you may be more careful knowing a trip could save
> your fingers but cost you $200 for cartridge and blade.
>

No evidence to prove which
That safety features make operators more responsible
or it makes them less responsible


there are mountains of data that show drivers of cars with ABS
were driving more aggressively and taking more risks with
stopping/breaking

operators need to know the machine and what to expect and think
through what to do if the saw does the unexpected

On Thu, 19 Mar 2015 23:50:57 -0400
Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

> Roland Johnson gave a great 1 hour talk on the art of refurbishing
> ancient cast iron hand planes at the woodworking shows. Do you like
> the wooden ones or the cast iron ones better? ; )

I have never had or used a wood plane
aren't they usually larger in size so they have enough mass to give
a consistent cut

Electric Comet wrote:

>
> there are mountains of data that show drivers of cars with ABS
> were driving more aggressively and taking more risks with
> stopping/breaking
>

Ok - I have to call Bullshit on this one - sorry. I believe there may be
some data that suggests that drivers became more complacent - or more
ignorant with the advent of ABS, but I'm not ready to buy into the claim
that there are mountains of data that show they simply drove more
aggressively. You'll have to defend that assertion a bit more to convince
me. Don't draw conclusions - simply show that data that you say there is
mountains of.

> operators need to know the machine and what to expect and think
> through what to do if the saw does the unexpected

Agreed.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 18:11:38 -0400
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Ok - I have to call Bullshit on this one - sorry. I believe there

Fine by me

On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 17:40:56 -0500
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:

> I kind'a don't believe that the anti lock brakes cause wreckless

Reworded it sounds like you misunderstood to begin with

It's a high profile example look it up if you care

the point stands and I stand by it
the safety features that are perceived as eliminating all or
most all the dangers will be tested by the operators
that's human nature


whether that's breaking way later in the case of cars or flying
in weather you'd have avoided without your ballistic chute or
being less mindful of where the blade is on the table saw with
flesh detection
it will be tested

I like ABS brakes and they are a really good idea
I like the flesh detection but don't want it but it's a good idea
and will get better but i still think operators should learn
the basics of the tools and materials and know that safety features
don't replace the need for being mindful of high speed steel



for another case of safety features with lots of data look at NFL
injuries went way up after they started using helmets, etc.
in other words the operators tested the limits
many have paid the price

long winded point is just that safety features can blur the fundamentals

Max wrote:

>
> It occurs to me to wonder how many people there might be who have
> become more aware of their vehicles limitations because of the
> emphasis on ABS.

I would argue that less have become more aware. I would argue that the
technology has created a (false) confidence in them which encourages them to
simply trust in the technology, and drive them further away from really
understanding the limitiations and the dynamics of driving a car. Look at
how it works today - they simply stand on the brake with the trust that the
car will take care of the situation. They don't even understand why pulsing
or pumping a brake is of value.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 13:05:26 -0700 (PDT)
DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote:

> All of the folks he had passed were honking their horns to say "Hi!"
> as they drove right by, leaving him in the ditch. I, too, sounded a
> hardy greeting.

what if it was an emergency
giving birth or about to
or he didn't have a SawStop

On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 11:50:08 -0400
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote:

> the technology has created a (false) confidence in them which
> encourages them to simply trust in the technology, and drive them
> further away from really understanding the limitiations and the
> dynamics of driving a car. Look at how it works today - they simply

this is what the actuarials and ntsb found and my point
when ABS was first introduced the car makers/sellers made a big deal
of it to sell more cars
car buyers knew they had some new brake related safety feature
called ABS

flesh detection will also do the same
i.e. cause over confidence
hopefully it will only lead to maybe an ache or pain and a little
disappointment

I wish a bunch of people would buy a bosch and use it a lot and
report back here

On 3/16/2015 12:23 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> It seems Bosch has built the better mouse trap.
> Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized bade,
> including dado sets.
> I wonder what the lawyer fees amount to? :-)
>
> <http://www.woodmagazine.com/blogs/woodworking-blog/2015/03/16/bosch-develops-tablesaw-with-blade-brake-safety/>
>
>
>
Cool!

The games that begin may in fact be in the courts. SawStop has
countless patents on their design, including the blade dropping below
the surface.

If they have not infringed on any patents this may in fact be the better
mouse trap. My gut feeling has always been that SawStop drops the blade
so that the belts go slack and the brake only has to stop the mass of
the blade and not the motor too.

Second issue will be if Bosch will try to compete on the same level.
While SawStop has only been around for 15 or so years, and marketing for
the past 7~10 years, they do have proven heavy duty tables saws, the
pro cabinet saw and the industrial cabinet saw. It will be interesting
to see of Bosch targets that market too or if they will stay with their
bench top models.

And if Bosch is successful is this good bye to the belligerent brands
that chose to not incorporate the technology? Saws with this feature,
Bosch and SawStop just might attract ALL of the consumers. Bosch has a
slight advantage in that it offers the safety feature and does not carry
the burden that SawStop has with those that refuse to buy the SawStop
brand regardless of its benefits.

On 3/19/2015 12:15 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 17:00:58 -0700, Electric Comet wrote:
>
>> SS destrroys the blade when deployed?
>> didnt know that
>
> It works by firing a block of aluminum up into the blade. It'd take one
> heck of a sturdy blade to survive that! Even getting the block of
> aluminum off of the blade is a bear.
>


Ok, to be completely honest as to how this works the aluminum block is
not fired. It is under spring tension and held in place by a fusable
link. When the machine detects skin contact an electrical charge is
sent to melt the fusable link and the spring pushes the aluminum part of
the brake into the blade. The rotation of the blade does the rest, it
naturally cuts and jams into the block like it would into a piece of wood.

I have yet to see a blade destroy itself after this event, and I have
seen it happen many times in demonstrations. Certainly the blade is
damaged to some extent and may certainly not be worth repairing but is a
far cry from being non survivable or destroyed.

There are several pictures here of a blade that was used in the test. I
don't see anything wrong with the blade but I certainly would want it to
be checked out before returning it to normal use.

http://www.newwoodworker.com/reviews/sawstop2.html

If you google sawstop blade brake and click on images there will be
numerous images of blades imedded in the brake and and after the brake
was removed. None that I can see is even missing a carbide tooth. But
again I would certainly want to have the blade checked out before reusing.

Now having said all of this the force of the motor is gone when the
blade drops and the brake trips so I am certain that this minimizes
damage to both the blade and brake.


And from the expert advice at the SawStop FAQ web site,

Can the blade be reused if the safety system brake is activated?
When the safety system activates, it will often damage one to two teeth
on the blade. It is usually cost-effective to have high-quality blades
repaired by a qualified blade sharpening service. However, less
expensive blades should be discarded.

>>
>>> Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized bade,
>>
>>SS destrroys the blade when deployed?
>
>And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull your
>hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with it. ;-)
>


The few SawStop mechanisms that I've sold - were all due to
" non personal " contact - ie : wet wood and metal ..
John T.


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: [email protected] ---

On 3/23/2015 11:15 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 17:40:56 -0500
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
>> I kind'a don't believe that the anti lock brakes cause wreckless
>
> Reworded it sounds like you misunderstood to begin with
>
> It's a high profile example look it up if you care
>
> the point stands and I stand by it
> the safety features that are perceived as eliminating all or
> most all the dangers will be tested by the operators
> that's human nature

I don't know of any one that perceives safety equipment, anti lock
brakes, as a way to eliminate all or most all of the dangers.
That is a conclusion by reading results of the collection of just a few
aspects of the reason that there may be more accidents.
What if the data indicated the coloration to HP also. Perhaps with the
same safety equipment with lower HP engines the data would show positive
results. More than likely with out the safety equipment the data would
point to even more accidents.

Maybe our less educated group of new drivers just don't know any better
because they were not taught properly to drive. More money went towards
entertainment.

On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 13:05:26 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Tuesday, March 24, 2015 at 2:29:49 PM UTC-4, Max wrote:
>> On 3/24/2015 11:47 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> > On 3/24/2015 10:43 AM, Max wrote:
>> >
>> >>>
>> >>> for another case of safety features with lots of data look at NFL
>> >>> injuries went way up after they started using helmets, etc.
>> >>> in other words the operators tested the limits
>> >>> many have paid the price
>> >>>
>> >>> long winded point is just that safety features can blur the fundamentals
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> It occurs to me to wonder how many people there might be who have become
>> >> more aware of their vehicles limitations because of the emphasis on ABS.
>> >>
>> >
>> > You mean like the 4WD SUV's that drivers feel can still go 70 mph on an
>> > icy road? Four wheel drive does not mean four wheel stop. Strictly
>> > anecdotal, but I've seen more of them in the ditch than regular cars.
>>
>> We have a winner, folks.
>
>A few years ago SWMBO and I were white knuckling it on a 2 lane highway during a blizzard. We were moving along slow but smooth with the rest of the traffic, doing maybe 20 MPH.
>
>Suddenly, an SUV goes sailing past us on the right hand shoulder, kicking up snow and scaring the crap out of us and others. You could see brakes lights go on as the SUV startled the drivers he was passing. SWMBO and I wished ill upon the SUV driver for being such an A-hole. I'm sure we were not alone.
>
>A few miles down the road, traffic was reduced to a crawl. As we proceeded slowly along with the other cars, we started to hear horns beeping. Then, just ahead, we saw the headlights of the SUV pointing across the highway, while his rear wheels were stuck in the ditch. All of the folks he had passed were honking their horns to say "Hi!" as they drove right by, leaving him in the ditch. I, too, sounded a hardy greeting.

I've seen exactly the same with 2WD cars. Once I told my wife that
we'd be seeing him again. Sure 'nuff, about five miles down the
road... Idiots buy all sorts of vehicles.

On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 20:56:43 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 3/18/15 8:55 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 20:15:38 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/18/15 8:12 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 17:00:58 -0700, Electric Comet
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 12:23:16 -0500 -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized
>>>>>> bade,
>>>>>
>>>>> SS destrroys the blade when deployed?
>>>>
>>>> And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull
>>>> your hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with it.
>>>> ;-)
>>>>
>>>> <...>
>>>>
>>>
>>> You'll do the same with the Bosch, except you'll be right back to work
>>> after switching the brake firing mechanism around because it works
>>> twice, instead of once. PLUS you won't be out a blade.
>>
>> Sure. Wake me up when it comes on a real saw.
>>
>
>I don't know about you, but I don't want to carry my cabinet saw out to
>a work site.

I don't either but I solve that problem by carrying the work to the
saw. ;-)

On 3/19/2015 1:06 AM, Electric Comet wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 23:17:21 -0500
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
>> That is not a certainty but I would certainly return the blade to the
>> manufacturer with details and an estimate to restore. I understand
>> that some have been repaired.
>
> What happens to the blade?
> is it pinched and warped or something more violent

A spring loaded aluminum brake pad with relief holes drilled in it is
pushed up into the spinning blade. It normally rests less than 1/8" from
the blade and is about 2" long. The holes allow the blade to penetrate
deeply into the aluminum. Also the blade drops below the surface of the
saw releasing tension on belts so that the brake does not have to stop
the momentum of the motor too. Because most quality carbide blades can
very easily cut through aluminum I don't believe the damage is severe
but I certainly would want the manufacturer to do and sign off on the
repair. I suspect a few teeth would have to be replaced and the blade
maybe be re flattened. something I have Forrest check for every time I
send my blades in for resharpening.

>
>
>> I am not sure that realistically it will matter one way or another.
>> Considering the fact that you save a trip to the ER the cost of a new
>> blade and brake does not even factor in if you screw up.
>
> Can't put a price on having all your original appendages
> i didn't know how the SS worked other than I saw the gizmo at
> the heart of it, the electronic part not the mechanical
>
>> There are those that look at it that way but if you test the limits
>> of your anti lock brakes by driving more recklessly there is a big
>> possibility that you are going to do something else that is stupid
>
> well they gather mountains of data because that's what insurance
> companies do and these were not daredevils just normal drivers
> that thought hey I have ABS so i can expect more from this car
> it's a subtle thing that showed up after a lot of data
>
> we will never get that data with tablesaws
> i think the most important thing is to understand what's really
> going on with any tool
>
> people need to stop and think what forces are involved
> what might happen if something goes wrong
> which direction will it go, etc.

Exactly and then expect the unexpected.



>
> it comes easier to some than to others
>
>> LOL... I bet there are those that would not want that feature to
>> save their lives to keep from totaling the airplane..
>
> no joke there're definitely pilots that see it as an impediment to
> honing and keeping real pilot skills

LOL yeah that same through process is mentioned with TS safety by some.
And that is a good thing but having a safer saw is part of practicing
saw safety.
>
> but it sells more planes, funny thing is those planes without a
> chute are really nice and much safer than the previous designs
> but it comes down to good maintanence with planes
>
>> For me absolutely the SawStop was worth the price. 3 table saws ago
>> I cut half my thumb off on my TS. No one could believe that happened
>> to ME. I was pretty strict safety.
>
> sory to hear that
>
>
>> Unfortunately I am not up on the 1,342,657,345,343,001 possible ways
>> to harm your self with a TS. I don't believe anyone else is either.
>
> It's potential to harm is great but it's overblown and I think that
> is even a problem for a lot of folks, they fear the table saw and
> operating it in fear is not good combo

Absolutely. You certainly should not feat operating a TS as this is the
first sign that you may not know all of the possible situations you can
encounter if you are not thinking about what you are doing. OTOH you
should feat what can happen if you are careless.
After I cut my thumb I was more fearful of the saw, up until I almost
cut my thumb again and finally realized exactly took place. Originally
I thought I was cutting a piece of wood and had a kick back. I was
cutting a dado. In actuality I had finished the cut, laid the wood
down, turned the saw off, and was reaching over the spinning blade to
grab the far end of the fence to remove it.

New rule.... don't go near the blade after a cut until you see it stop
spinning. Seems pretty damn reasonable to do this anyway but some of us
learn the hard way. But having said that there are numerous similar
ways to be hurt while not cutting wood.


>
>
>> Then add to that no one is perfect and some times we work a little
>> too long... There are countless reasons. Anyway I can afford it so
>> I bought it. I really don't want to go to the ER again. FWIW I had
>
> plus as I've seen you mention it's a well made saw

The industrial version certainly is, there is a lot of cast iron under
the table. A comparison I make is that the SS industrial, being a
cabinet saw too, is that it has about 200 lbs more iron in the trunnion
assembly. It weighs in at about 700lbs with the hydraulic mobile base,
52" capacity fence and out feed rollers.
The SS Professional saw I am sure is every bit as well built as most any
cabinet saw in the same price range. I had a Jet cabinet saw and wanted
to step up to heavier and to a larger/deeper table top in addition to
having the safer features of a riving knife and the blade brake. That
was the only reason I chose the industrial over the professional version.



>
>
>> I would say for the vast majority no. For those that throw caution
>> to the wind, if this does not get them something else will.
>> And FWIW putting a blade brake on a saw does not guarantee not being
>> harmed.
>
> I'm glad you said that because the mindset in the shop or around
> power tools is very important
>
> gotta know when to do something with potential for harm
> I do most cutting early when I'm fresh but may be a luxury for some
>
> if I'm distracted with something try to deal with it then get back
> to the saw

Yes, if you are on a deadline you have to often work past your prime
attention time. I try to never use the TS when some one comes up to
visit me in my garage unless they are actually there to help.

On 3/18/2015 8:15 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 3/18/15 8:12 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 17:00:58 -0700, Electric Comet
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 12:23:16 -0500 -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized
>>>> bade,
>>>
>>> SS destrroys the blade when deployed?
>>
>> And the brake mechanism, about $200 all in. OTOH, when you pull
>> your hand back, you'll be happy to reach into your wallet with it.
>> ;-)
>>
>> <...>
>>
>
> You'll do the same with the Bosch, except you'll be right back to work
> after switching the brake firing mechanism around because it works
> twice, instead of once. PLUS you won't be out a blade.

But as you well know the double use feature will create a false sense of
security. ;~) You know when when you have a flat tire and open the
trunk and realize that the spare is on the ground already. ;~)
The cartridge trips and no worries until you realize that you have
already performed the hot dog demonstration once before. ;~)

It is a cool feature of not damaging the blade but if that feature is
important to you, you have my nod to buy that particular saw to begin
with. It sounds like you already know you are going to need it.

On 3/16/2015 1:39 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 3/16/15 12:47 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 3/16/2015 12:23 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> It seems Bosch has built the better mouse trap. Their brake doesn't
>>> destroy the blade and works on any sized bade, including dado
>>> sets. I wonder what the lawyer fees amount to? :-)
>>>
>>> <http://www.woodmagazine.com/blogs/woodworking-blog/2015/03/16/bosch-develops-tablesaw-with-blade-brake-safety/>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Cool!
>>
>> The games that begin may in fact be in the courts. SawStop has
>> countless patents on their design, including the blade dropping below
>> the surface.
>>
>> If they have not infringed on any patents this may in fact be the
>> better mouse trap. My gut feeling has always been that SawStop drops
>> the blade so that the belts go slack and the brake only has to stop
>> the mass of the blade and not the motor too.
>>
>> Second issue will be if Bosch will try to compete on the same level.
>> While SawStop has only been around for 15 or so years, and marketing
>> for the past 7~10 years, they do have proven heavy duty tables saws,
>> the pro cabinet saw and the industrial cabinet saw. It will be
>> interesting to see of Bosch targets that market too or if they will
>> stay with their bench top models.
>>
>> And if Bosch is successful is this good bye to the belligerent brands
>> that chose to not incorporate the technology? Saws with this
>> feature, Bosch and SawStop just might attract ALL of the consumers.
>> Bosch has a slight advantage in that it offers the safety feature and
>> does not carry the burden that SawStop has with those that refuse to
>> buy the SawStop brand regardless of its benefits.
>>
>
> I'll tell you one thing, SawStop needs better demonstrators.
>
> I just happened to walk into our local Woodcraft and there was a SawStop
> guy there demonstrating the table saw. He had the blade all the way up
> and when he started the saw it started making a horrible grinding
> racket, then stopped abruptly. Turns out he has the blade too far up
> and it was pressing into the table insert. I didn't know that was
> possible but he did it. It tripped the built-in breaker and he couldn't
> figure out how to reset it.
>
> About 10 minutes later they figured it out and he did the hotdog trick.
>
>
Genius! The manager that opened my local Woodcraft about 7 years ago
give notice and went to work for SawStop early this year. ;~)

On 3/18/2015 4:12 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 3/16/15 12:23 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> It seems Bosch has built the better mouse trap.
>> Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized bade,
>> including dado sets.
>> I wonder what the lawyer fees amount to? :-)
>>
>> <http://www.woodmagazine.com/blogs/woodworking-blog/2015/03/16/bosch-develops-tablesaw-with-blade-brake-safety/>
>>
>>
>
> Here she is!
>
> http://youtu.be/nbDf2dpQVIY
>
>


Interesting, and also interesting more expensive than the SawStop by a
few hundred dollars.
The SS seems to have a lot of cool features.

http://www.sawstop.com/table-saws/by-model/jobsite-saw#overview