TV Stand Project and Cabinetry

On 12/3/2012 11:57 AM, Sonny wrote:
> Results: a perfectly square cabinet, with all the many benefits >> therefrom. >> > > This should be in a FAQ somewhere. I agree; it's great stuff! > >

> And do a final dry fit of all parts, before committing to glue-up?

A quickie 'idiot check', to insure the shop dummy hasn't done something
stupid, is always in order ... ;)

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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Sunday, January 13, 2013 5:41:26 AM UTC-6, Bill wrote:

> I'm not exactly sure why at least 3 of us want to make SketchUp users
>=20
> out of everyone.

SU is free. Everyone should, at least, check it out. Even if someone can'=
t perform its basics tasks, it'll give the woodworker some elements of draf=
ting/pre-drafting, design, measrue and asssembly, beyond their present abil=
ities. Once you see its helpfulness, you'll want to exploer, more, of its =
assistance to you. ***Assistance to you - more below!

> But just for fun I drew a couple moldings, my first effort,
>=20
> and took 2 snapshots (using Steve's tip on Exporting 2D images), just to=
=20
>=20
> help illustratethat this is not a bad tool to experiment with=20
>=20
> moldings.

Right. With my last reply, I almost spoke too fast. =20

For that transition, from top to cabinet, any molding would likely work jus=
t fine. When you don't have scrap molding to place, there, and see, in per=
son, another viewing option is helpful.

*I almost spoke too fast (I initially misread what you wrote). Re: ***ass=
istance to you. When I first read your posting, I read it as your dependi=
ng on SU, itself, to make the decision for you, as to what molding would be=
best, and not that you would use SU to assist in your deciding.

Regarding the transition moldings, elements. I would suggest not making th=
e molding so large or elaborate as to draw attention to itself. It is to b=
e a transition piece, not necessarily a prominent design feature. When jud=
ging what molding to use, don't look at the molding. Look at the 2 feature=
s it is transitioning to-from, to make sure the transition is smooth and no=
t interrupted by the molding, i.e., not interrupted by an over large or ela=
borate molding.

Sonny

On 12/2/2012 9:35 PM, Bill wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>> On 12/2/2012 6:06 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>
>>> I started a new thread for this project.
>>>
>>> I have been thinking more about a face frame and cabinet
>>> doors for my project.
>>
>>> I am gaining the impression that a good quality face frame is typically
>>> make out of pieces of genuine solid wood even when the rest of the
>>> cabinet carcase may be made from man-made materials. Is this the way
>>> that you would proceed?
>>
>> More often than not, absolutely correct. There are many valid methods to
>> skin that cat, and we all have our favorites.
>>
>> Still have that Sketchup?
>>
>> Here's one way to make a solid wood face frame (I use pocket hole
>> joinery for the rails and stiles in all cases), and how the face frame
>> and casework go together:
>>
>> http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=7571eb024b5207f1b2c2cd006d206129&prevstart=0
>>
>>
>>
>> Here's a face frame only model that can be re-sized:
>>
>> http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=4bc56dea899d4062b2c2cd006d206129&prevstart=0
>>
>>
>
> Mucho-Thanks!
>
> If I understand the diagram, you have grooves along the backs of each of
> the rails and stiles of the face frame. That is a marvelous way to
> increase the gluing surface, if it fits! Note to self: Make sure the
> grooves fit over all 4 of the outer faces of the carcase.
>
> I assume that you use dominos where the rail and stiles meet (besides
> pocket holes)? Without tenons, I can see that one could trim the
> lengths for a perfect fit prior to assembly.
>
> You've given me lots of good ideas to borrow from!
>
> Bill
>

Bill the cabinets that I have been making lately, the last 14 cabinets
in the past 2 years actually have front and back face frames. I did not
use screws on the face frames but did use Domino's for the front and or
a combination of lap joint and domino on the back face frames. All face
frames mate with the carcase via dadoes in the mating sides.

You mentioned that this all has to fit the outer faces of the carcase
and that is very true. There is nothing wrong with using pocket hole
screws except with my back face frames the screws would show from the
front side. Additionally when you use pocket hole screws you are pretty
much locked into the where every thing fits when it comes time to mate
the carcase and the face frames. With Domino's you can use a wider
mortise setting so that you have a little wiggle room. Basically I dry
fit the carcase and also dry fit the face frame on top to insure it will
all fit together. I then remove the face frame and glue it together,
place it back on top of the of the dry fit carcase using waxed paper in
between to keep them from sticking to each other. With slightly over
sized mortices for the Domino's I get a little wiggle room, 1/8" or so.
While this does not seem like a lot of wiggle it is often a great help
especially when a single cabinet may have as many as 16 dadoes in the
carcase and both face frames that all have to come together.
Typically the wiggle room aids in assembly and disappears once all the
pieces are in place and the clamps have every thing fitting as it should
be while the glue sets.
It is imperative that that your measurements and cuts are accurate and
where they need to be.

Bill wrote:
> I like the idea of screwing the highest "top" on from below, but the
> 2nd
> level sort of gets in the way (of doing that well).
--------------------------------------------------------------
That's why "stubby" screwdriver's exist or a 1/4"
ratchet drive with a screwdriver bit, or even a right angle
screwdriver drive.

Lew

On Friday, January 11, 2013 12:32:17 AM UTC-6, Bill wrote:

> I like the idea of screwing the highest "top" on from below, but the 2nd
>=20
> level sort of gets in the way (of doing that well). I may attach the top=
=20
>=20
> with biscuits or dowels (or both--just a few biscuits for alignment).

I vote screws only. Hex head screws and a socket should make attaching si=
mple and easy, despite the lower shelf. Keep the task simple and easy. =20

Alignment wouldn't be that far off, anyway, even if you simply eyeballed it=
. Your transition molding (*below) will take care of any alignment discrep=
ancy. By all means, making it routine practice, for any project, to be acc=
urate with any type of alignment is good practice. It just seemed, to me, =
bisquits and/or dowels is a bit overkill in achieving the alignment for the=
top.... again, keep it simple and easy, when you can.

*Transition molding -=20
> I will surely need some sort of molding between the faceframe and the=20
> top too. Maybe a simple cove (concave)?=20


> Sometime I'll see what that combination looks like in SketchUp; this is=
=20
> a new domain for me.

You want an expert opinion, ask your wife. Those women have an eye, and/or=
the gene, for those details. Us guys don't got no sense when it comes to =
decorating.

Sonny

Results: a perfectly square cabinet, with all the many benefits >> therefrom. >> > > This should be in a FAQ somewhere. I agree; it's great stuff! > >


And do a final dry fit of all parts, before committing to glue-up?

Sonny

On 12/2/2012 6:06 PM, Bill wrote:
>
> I started a new thread for this project.
>
> I have been thinking more about a face frame and cabinet
> doors for my project.
\
> I am gaining the impression that a good quality face frame is typically
> make out of pieces of genuine solid wood even when the rest of the
> cabinet carcase may be made from man-made materials. Is this the way
> that you would proceed?

More often than not, absolutely correct. There are many valid methods to
skin that cat, and we all have our favorites.

Still have that Sketchup?

Here's one way to make a solid wood face frame (I use pocket hole
joinery for the rails and stiles in all cases), and how the face frame
and casework go together:

http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=7571eb024b5207f1b2c2cd006d206129&prevstart=0

Here's a face frame only model that can be re-sized:

http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=4bc56dea899d4062b2c2cd006d206129&prevstart=0

There are many variations on this theme, as well as many advantages for
doing it as modeled, as it is a method that has stood the test of time.
BTW, these are dynamic models, which can be re-sized to make it easier
to fill linear distances in a kitchen or built-in areas for both
planning, bidding, and building.

Often when you are building furniture that is casework based, it is
beneficial to use face frames on both sides of the casework ... I use
this method frequently, and I know for a fact that Leon uses it to good
advantage on those beautiful tall cabinets he builds.

> Admittedly, this makes me ponder whether wood
> expansion/contraction could weaken the glue joints holding the face
> frame to the carcase.

FF's rails and stiles are generally 1 1/2" - 3" wide, so for most
species that you would use to build face frames there will not be enough
cross grain instability to cause that problem.

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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 1/9/2013 6:22 AM, Bill wrote:
> I wanted to share the drawing I did tonight with the kind folks here who
> help make my progress possible, so I put it on my web site (the
> earlier version is there too, just for the sake of comparison).
>
> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

Looking very good, Bill.

It's totally a matter of taste, and suit yourself, but I would put the
wider rails of your face frames on the bottom, not the top.

Also, you might want to consider making a similar base to this, with six
adjustable feet, for the TV unit to sit on:

https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopTexasTansu2005#5669704288278669858

A base of this type would provide support for your span; make a nice
visual transition from the face frame; and would easily support six
adjustable feet (one in each corner, and two in the middle, front and
back) that would insure that the unit sits solidly on an uneven floor
without detracting from the visual aspect.

Although, this one is a bit more fancy with the curves, it gives the
appearance of having four feet, and if you do it like this, you will
only need four adjustable feet.

Here's the casework:

https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopDiningRoomHutch2009#5663816516513022130

Here's the casework with base attached:

https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopDiningRoomHutch2009#5663816532739249570

Here's what the base looks like from bottom side:

https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopDiningRoomHutch2009#5663816543789641538

Here's the whole enchilada trimmed out:

https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopDiningRoomHutch2009#5663816649603519954

Concept drawing, showing a wider unit than yours, sitting on a base with
four adjustable feet, with a whole lot more weight and longer span to
contend with:

https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopDiningRoomHutch2009#5664536626288014658

And, so you can orbit around something completed, here's the same model
I used to collaborate with the client, who lived a few hundred miles
away, for both the design and fabrication of the dining room set I made
for her:

http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=afc4558167d08ac659b0e787f72ad393&prevstart=0

Just some more ideas to play around with.

BTW, congratulation on your modeling. You are obviously becoming quite
proficient with SketchUp and it shows, AND, as we see here, it gives you
the ability to benefit with a bit of collaboration and swapping of ideas.

Whichever way you go, you're doing good ...

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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 12/6/2012 3:59 PM, dadiOH wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>
>> I agree that a "fake stile" would be off the charts cheap! it took
>> me a few seconds to even imagine one.
>
> I can't say I agree with you (or Swingman) on this. The stile isn't fake
> except that it isn't part of the face frame. What it does is give you
> complete access to a large, double door cabinet.

On a properly designed, modern cabinet and properly hung/hinged doors I
can get that without a center stile, and, better yet, without having to
open and close cabinet doors in sequence:

https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopKitchensInNewConstruction20022011#5661516994414540946

https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopKitchensInNewConstruction20022011#5661516985289451570

Thirty years ago, both those cabinets would have had partial inset doors
with a fake center stile because it was easier/cheaper to do it that
way, and took less skill.

Even worse on frameless cabinets ... ugh.

> Logically, large things are stored in large cabinets and if there were a
> center stile on the face frame the size of storable items would be cut way
> down.

Not necessary in today's modern kitchen, as shown above.

Besides, there is little as fugly as the ubiquitous dings on the
adjacent door made by the fake stile when opening/closing in the wrong
sequence ... unless it is the ubiquitous off-the-shelf molding
traditionally used to make the lip by those without the skill set to do
a proper door. :)

My clients can't wait to get rid of the damned things ... and I haven't
had any one request them in longer than I can remember.

Of course, you're correct ... YMMV ;)

--
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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 1/12/2013 10:45 PM, Bill wrote:

> -- Thank you for including that little morsal! In my mind, I had
> been struggling to make the case fit the base.
> Given what can go wrong at assembly, it seems like the dado groove for
> the floor should be cut just a tad deep (less than 1/16" say), so that
> the corners of the base can meet perfectly. Is that reasonable thinking?

Yes, if I understand your question correctly.

In this one below, the cabinet/casework simply sits upon the ledge
formed by the rabbet in the removable base, but you still want a
reasonably close fit for the visual aspect, but with a bit of wiggle
room for ease of use, say 1/8" all around:

https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopTexasTansu2005#5669704288278669858

This type of base is easy to make because you can route/cut rabbets in
long pieces the stock you use for the sides, then "cut to fit with
miters" the base sides, just as you would with trim on a table top.

I do like to reinforce the corners of this type of base, either with
wood blocks, angled corner braces of wood, or, as in the photo, I used
leftover metal corner braces from a previous project ... suit yourself.

>> Both bases are built with the same approach,
> --- But the latter one just has a rebate to hold the carcase right? Or
> did you add more wood to the base (like in the "belt w/suspenders"
> approach?)

In this one, instead of a rabbet edge for the casework to sit on, I
simply used a 1 x 2 x 3/4 "ledger board", glued and screwed to the back
of the base sides:

https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopDiningRoomHutch2009#5663816543789641538

The idea in both examples is to form a ledge for the cabinet/casework to
sit upon.

I prefer this method when the superstructure will be very heavy and I
want the base to be an integral part of the structure.

You decision entirely, based on your design.

> The hardware that you used in the corners of the first example appears
> stronger than the 2 pieces of wood (which appear just butt-jointed
> together) under the levelers in the 2nd example (which I assume have the
> same reinforcing intent).

That "ledger board" is mitered in the corners, and glued and screwed to
the visible sides of the base, as well as the spacer blocks for the
levelers ... no butt joints. ;)

IOW, by gluing all these components to the four sides of the base
itself, you are effectively making a single component out of all the parts.

My rationale for making an effort to create a "single component", is
that I like to transfer all weight to the floor/ground in as straight
and direct a manner as possible, just as you would do with beams and
headers in a construction project.

> Is anything else reinforcing the corners of
> the base that I can't see, like biscuits?

Yes ... when I do mitered corners in furniture and casework of any kind,
I always reinforce the inherently weak miter joint in some manner; in
this particular case with biscuits, because I own a plate jointer.

Doing so makes it easier to align during assembly and glue-up, and you
do indeed get added strength from the biscuits in this application
(regardless of what some will proclaim to the contrary).

You could also use any of the other traditional methods to reinforce
miter joints ... splines, etc.

> Maybe you have a hunch what the next incarnation of my TV-Stand will
> look like?
>
> The only other new thing that occured to me is that for an inset cabinet
> door, a hungarian hinge attaches to the inside wall, I believe.
> Presently my "inside wall" is also the end of my case and will be a
> about 2 inches away or so. I assume that there is a hinge for an inset
> cabinet door that attaches to the back and edge of the faceframe. I
> need to learn more about them. Classes resume Monday, so I can mostly
> just think and draw for the time being anyway. A detailed SketchUp parts
> diagram will be a reasonable short term goal. I won't comit to a design
> until I locate my hinges! I feel like I made some big steps this week!

Absolutely do all your research and choose, and insure availability of
your hinges and slides well before you decide upon a final design.

You've come a long way toward getting the idea handsomely, Bill! :)

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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 1/12/2013 1:24 AM, Bill wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>>
>> Here's the casework:
>>
>> https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopDiningRoomHutch2009#5663816516513022130
>>
>>
>> Here's the casework with base attached:
>>
>> https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopDiningRoomHutch2009#5663816532739249570
>>
>>
>> Here's what the base looks like from bottom side:
>>
>> https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopDiningRoomHutch2009#5663816543789641538
>>
>>
> I alternated looking at picture 3 and 4 of the base for at least a half
> hour before I figured out how complicated, or simple, the base really is
> depending on one's point of view. At first I thought the cabinetry
> rested on top of the base (silly me!)
> Really remarkable construction (and evidently rock-solid).
>
> If there are any other newbes reading who like cabinetry, I suggest they
> not pass up this great lessson (and I think it's a tough one).
>
> BTW, I don't think you learn technique like this at the table saw... and
> I just proved that you don't need a table saw to learn this technique.
> Wonderfully satisfying "solution"...

This was a commissioned piece for a client who lives about 150 miles
from here. Last thing I want to do is to get a call from a client in the
future with a problem, so I tend to overbuild with a belt and suspenders
approach. I don't mind being invited back to "touch" years and more down
the road, but certainly never want to go back for a "fix" of any kind.

This particular piece your were talking about above, the base is an
integral part of the bottom, and was actually built around, and attached
to, the bottom cabinet as it was applied.

On the first example in the previous post (Tansu stack-able cabinets),
the base and the bottom cabinets are separate units, to make it easy to
move around, and facilitate stacking the parts in different configurations:

https://plus.google.com/photos/111355467778981859077/albums/5669704268273941697/5669704373306878306

Both bases are built with the same approach, one that is certainly not
my invention, but an old one which I basically copied/picked up from a
cabinetmaker I had to good fortune to work with in England for a while,
whose family had been in the business for a few hundred years.

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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 12/6/2012 11:54 AM, Bill wrote:
> On 12/6/2012 12:39 PM, Bill wrote:
>> On 12/6/2012 9:46 AM, Swingman wrote:
>>> On 12/5/2012 11:22 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>> Somehow I came upon a site describing "partial inset doors" and
>>>> acquainted myself with the terms: inset, lip and reveal (thanks Larry
>>>> Jaques--that last term helped me get started). I learned inset and
>>>> lip
>>>> of 3/8" are pretty standard as is a 1" reveal (maybe that's more
>>>> standard on kitchen cabinets, than tv-stands?)
>>>
>>> Be careful now ...these days about the only thing in the kitchen cabinet
>>> business that screams "CHEAP" louder than lipped (partial inset) cabinet
>>> doors is attaching a fake stile to one lipped door in a two door
>>> cabinet. :)
>>
>> It was just a lesson I picked up, I'm not married to it.
>>
>> An "inset" door adds more to the aura of craftsmanship, ay?
>>
>> I agree that a "fake stile" would be off the charts cheap! it took me
>> a few seconds to even imagine one.
>>
>> After I build a carcase, I can assess whether it will be able to support
>> inset doors or not
>
> Oops, I should have said a carcase and a *face frame*!

Listen up!

<preach mode>

Equally important with batch cutting, and the overriding pursuit of
square, in building cabinetry and furniture:

Design parameters, and certainly the final dimensions of many components
(doors and drawers), more often than not hinge (no pun intended) upon
the hardware being used!

Rule: Decide upon the hardware you are going to use for the entire
project ...to wit: hinges and hardware for the doors; drawer slides and
hardware for the drawers.

Rule: Then purchase those hinges, drawer slides and all hardware
_BEFORE_ you begin the project; or, at a very minimum, satisfy yourself
110% that said hardware, or alternate hardware that requires the exact
same dimensions you built to, will be available upon completion.

There are NO exceptions to the two above rules ... none.

Or, more simply put: Decide upon your hardware before you design and build.

</preach mode>

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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 1/11/2013 12:32 AM, Bill wrote:
> Part of me thinks I should just go begin work on the base, but I know
> Swingman would advise that that's all wrong--one is
> supposed to have a "more or less complete" vision before starting to cut
> the wood! ; )

You have my permission to have at it! :)

You learn more by doing, than by talking about doing ...

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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

Bill <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

Bill,

Not sure if you know this but you can export an image of your project
without the menu buttons by using File > Export > 2D Graphic.

This allows you to create an image of whatever view is on your screen at
the time without cluttering up the image. You can choose 4 different
formats for the image (jpg, tif, bmp, and png).

Hope this helps.

Steve

Bill <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> -Steve- wrote:
>> Bill <[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>> Bill,
>>
>> Not sure if you know this but you can export an image of your project
>> without the menu buttons by using File > Export > 2D Graphic.
>>
>> This allows you to create an image of whatever view is on your screen
at
>> the time without cluttering up the image. You can choose 4 different
>> formats for the image (jpg, tif, bmp, and png).
>>
>> Hope this helps.
> I didn't know that, and it will definitely help. Thank you!
>
> BTW, are you the Steve from Indiana who teaches woodworking classes?
>
>
>>
>> Steve
>
>

Nope. Southern California.

Swingman <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> On 1/9/2013 6:22 AM, Bill wrote:
>> I wanted to share the drawing I did tonight with the kind folks here
>> who help make my progress possible, so I put it on my web site (the
>> earlier version is there too, just for the sake of comparison).
>>
>> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>
> Looking very good, Bill.
>
> It's totally a matter of taste, and suit yourself, but I would put the
> wider rails of your face frames on the bottom, not the top.
>
> Also, you might want to consider making a similar base to this, with
> six adjustable feet, for the TV unit to sit on:
>
> https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopTexasTansu2
> 005#5669704288278669858
>
> A base of this type would provide support for your span; make a nice
> visual transition from the face frame; and would easily support six
> adjustable feet (one in each corner, and two in the middle, front and
> back) that would insure that the unit sits solidly on an uneven floor
> without detracting from the visual aspect.
>
> Although, this one is a bit more fancy with the curves, it gives the
> appearance of having four feet, and if you do it like this, you will
> only need four adjustable feet.
>
> Here's the casework:
>
> https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopDiningRoomH
> utch2009#5663816516513022130
>
> Here's the casework with base attached:
>
> https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopDiningRoomH
> utch2009#5663816532739249570
>
> Here's what the base looks like from bottom side:
>
> https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopDiningRoomH
> utch2009#5663816543789641538
>
> Here's the whole enchilada trimmed out:
>
> https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopDiningRoomH
> utch2009#5663816649603519954
>
> Concept drawing, showing a wider unit than yours, sitting on a base
> with four adjustable feet, with a whole lot more weight and longer
> span to contend with:
>
> https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopDiningRoomH
> utch2009#5664536626288014658
>
> And, so you can orbit around something completed, here's the same
> model I used to collaborate with the client, who lived a few hundred
> miles away, for both the design and fabrication of the dining room set
> I made for her:
>
> http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=afc4558167d08ac659b0
> e787f72ad393&prevstart=0
>
> Just some more ideas to play around with.
>
> BTW, congratulation on your modeling. You are obviously becoming quite
> proficient with SketchUp and it shows, AND, as we see here, it gives
> you the ability to benefit with a bit of collaboration and swapping of
> ideas.
>
> Whichever way you go, you're doing good ...
>
+1 for everything. Gave me the best idea yet of how to attach the
shelves of my coffeetable ...

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Bill <[email protected]> wrote in news:kcu6on012e1
@news3.newsguy.com:

> http://web.n

Bill,

Congrats. Your pictures are a lot cleaner without all the menu clutter.
Every time I do something for the house I export a concept image to show
SWMBO for her approval.

Steve

On 1/8/2013 1:18 AM, Bill wrote:
> Swingman,
>
> You posted a SU drawing of assembled rails and stiles a short while back
> (from your DC-WallCabinet).
>
> I assume you knock down a wall in each of the stiles (so that the groove
> is not obstructed by the side of the stile).
> I assume you do this with the TS, carefully, while you're cutting the
> other grooves,
> as your machine will already be set-up for it after you cut grooves in
> the respective rails.

No, and AFTER assembly of the faceframe ... I almost always use my
laminate router to join the grooves in the rails with the grooves in the
stiles, and I almost always do it by hand, simply marking the lines with
a square as extensions of the existing dadoes, and routing to that line.

You can make a jig, and, IIRC, that is what Leon does, but I find I can
do it much quicker with almost the same accuracy (this operation doesn't
have to be the picture of perfection unless it is visible, in which case
I will use a chisel to mark the edges of the joining groove, then either
chisel it out or use the router by hand ... this latter method keeps the
edges nice and crisp if they are going to be visible, which they rarely are)

> If I understand your suggestions,

Not "suggestions" ... this is a concise method/methodology, just as a
"method engineer" would dictate in a factory setting as a sequence of
events for fabrication of any part, including the whole. :)

> I think a reasonable sequence of
> operations (omitting the cabinet doors) is:
>
> 1. Glue faceframe parts together.

Cut your dadoes and grooves in the face frame stiles and rail BEFORE you
assemble the face frames (with the exception of the above).

When making a "cabinet", you will find assembling the cabinet's face
frame's with pocket hold joinery provides more than enough strength, and
is a quick and elegant method.

> 2. Cut the sides, top, and back of the cabinet to fit the face frame.

Cut ALL your end panels (sides) and floors (top and bottom, usually the
same dimension) at one time. Then

Cut all dadoes/grooves in your end panels, then

> 3. Glue the pieces from Step 2 together and into the face face

Lay the face frame face down on a suitably flat surface. Glue and
assemble the end panels and floors to each other, and to the face frame.
Clamp, nail, screw as needed.

4. Once the above casework is assembled (without the back), double check
your measurements for the back; cut backs to size; and glue, screw, nail
in place as desired.

> Please correct me if anything looks amiss! Your drawing will certainly
> result in my making the "lip" on the bottom smaller
> (and more sophisticated-looking)--1/8", then I would have made it. A
> nice touch..

I like having that 1/8" "lip" between the top of the bottom rail and the
floor of the cabinet, and I use it all the time, in every cabinet I
build, but it is optional ... some folks don't like it. I do.

Why? That "lip" forces the floor of the cabinet to be perfectly flat,
which can be difficult to do without the lip ... and, no matter how well
you choose your stock, plywood is not always flat, and Murphy guarantees
that the only non-flat part of the cabinet will end up where it looks
the worst.

> Cheers,
> Bill
>
>
> By the way, to my surprise I found I can get a 1/4" Cherry dowel at
> Rockler for a few bucks. If I slice some notches (to avoid
> glue-squeezeout) on the bottom 5/4" of a length of a dowel, will this
> give me a suitable dowel for my casework joinery? I intend them for the
> top and bottom in addition to the dado.

That will work, but it is unnecessary. A properly sized, glued and
clamped dado joint will suffice. Most of the time, where you may need
some other type of mechanical fastener (screws, dowels, nails, brads),
it may well be in area that will covered by trim on the outside of the
cabinet ... in that case use an appropriately sized finish nail or brad.

Another trick to reinforce a dado joint in a cabinet is to toenail a
brad though the horizontal piece and into the vertical piece in such a
manner that is almost invisible, and being careful to not breakthrough
to the other side of the vertical pieces.

> I'm not sure it I need dowels
> to secure the faceframe.

Gluing the face frame to the casework will usually suffice.

> I would prefer not to put dowels down the
> front of the work unless it is suggested to help support the (heavy?)
> cabinet doors. The impression I have is that glue is up to the task.

It is.

That said, I am one of those folks who, after handling, viewing and
observing some beautiful antique furniture from both the US and Europe,
have NO problem whatsoever using a strategically placed mechanical
fastener (finish nail/brad) in a visible part of a piece of furniture
... what was done by the old masters is good enough for me.

I do take great care, as they did, in orderly, even placement of any
fastener, respecting the direction of the grain, and using an
appropriately colored filler that will make it almost indistinguishable
for other elements of the natural wood.

So be it ... in sixty years of making things out of wood I've not had a
single remark in that regard

And,for your Faceframes, by all means, spring for a Kreg pocket hole kit
... you will be glad that you did.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

Swingman;2971419 Wrote:
> On 12/3/2012 11:57 AM, Sonny wrote:-
> Results: a perfectly square cabinet, with all the many benefits
> therefrom. This should be in a FAQ somewhere. I agree; it's great
> stuff! -
> -
> And do a final dry fit of all parts, before committing to glue-up?-
>
> Agree with you and thanks for starting this tread form where I got many
> useful ideas regarding this tips. I also like solid wood overly doors.




--
anisagimran

On 1/8/2013 10:02 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 1/8/2013 1:18 AM, Bill wrote:
>> Swingman,
>>
>> You posted a SU drawing of assembled rails and stiles a short while back
>> (from your DC-WallCabinet).
>>
>> I assume you knock down a wall in each of the stiles (so that the groove
>> is not obstructed by the side of the stile).
>> I assume you do this with the TS, carefully, while you're cutting the
>> other grooves,
>> as your machine will already be set-up for it after you cut grooves in
>> the respective rails.
>
> No, and AFTER assembly of the faceframe ... I almost always use my
> laminate router to join the grooves in the rails with the grooves in the
> stiles, and I almost always do it by hand, simply marking the lines with
> a square as extensions of the existing dadoes, and routing to that line.
>
> You can make a jig, and, IIRC, that is what Leon does, but I find I can
> do it much quicker with almost the same accuracy (this operation doesn't
> have to be the picture of perfection unless it is visible, in which case
> I will use a chisel to mark the edges of the joining groove, then either
> chisel it out or use the router by hand ... this latter method keeps the
> edges nice and crisp if they are going to be visible, which they rarely
> are)

I am using a router fence/guide now to complete the unions of the
grooves on the face frames. Clean accurate cuts on this process are
more necessary for me as I commonly use "back" face frames on my
cabinets now. If the back of the cabinet is visible it is important
that the completed grooves look good. For front face frames with out a
mirror back the hand guided router is the best choice for me.

On 1/13/2013 5:41 AM, Bill wrote:

> They are the 3rd and 4th image on my website (below), if anyone wants to
> see. They are not intended to be glamour shots. I am just trying to
> inform, and maybe entertain a little, and I learned a little in the
> process. I'm a SU user who doesn't practice much, and Iprobably rate 2
> out of 10and am aspiring to get to 3! : ) Search for the SketchUcation
> Newsletter if you want to see really wondrous SU work.

Well done, Bill ... what you just did is the absolute epitome of why I
have been basically evangelizing about SU for woodworking for the past
six years.

At the top of the list of benefits, besides the myriad benefits your
projects ultimately gain from perfecting a design, are "presentation"
and "collaboration".

You have "presented" your ideas in a clear, concise manner, and opened
the door, and your mind, for further ideas through "collaboration", from
which you can now pick and choose.

Those who make a conscious effort to make full use of available
technology in their endeavors, of all types, are much more likely to
succeed.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 12/2/2012 9:35 PM, Bill wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>> On 12/2/2012 6:06 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>
>>> I started a new thread for this project.
>>>
>>> I have been thinking more about a face frame and cabinet
>>> doors for my project.
>>
>>> I am gaining the impression that a good quality face frame is typically
>>> make out of pieces of genuine solid wood even when the rest of the
>>> cabinet carcase may be made from man-made materials. Is this the way
>>> that you would proceed?
>>
>> More often than not, absolutely correct. There are many valid methods to
>> skin that cat, and we all have our favorites.
>>
>> Still have that Sketchup?
>>
>> Here's one way to make a solid wood face frame (I use pocket hole
>> joinery for the rails and stiles in all cases), and how the face frame
>> and casework go together:
>>
>> http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=7571eb024b5207f1b2c2cd006d206129&prevstart=0
>>
>>
>>
>> Here's a face frame only model that can be re-sized:
>>
>> http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=4bc56dea899d4062b2c2cd006d206129&prevstart=0
>>
>>
>
> Mucho-Thanks!
>
> If I understand the diagram, you have grooves along the backs of each of
> the rails and stiles of the face frame. That is a marvelous way to
> increase the gluing surface, if it fits! Note to self: Make sure the
> grooves fit over all 4 of the outer faces of the carcase.
>
> I assume that you use dominos where the rail and stiles meet (besides
> pocket holes)? Without tenons, I can see that one could trim the
> lengths for a perfect fit prior to assembly.

No dominoes or tenons on the face frames as a rule. Not necessary when
using pocket joinery to make face frames.

Since the face frame will be attached to the casework, pocket hole
joinery supplies more than enough joint strength necessary for the face
frame.

IOW, both components, face frame and casework, end up with more strength
and rigidity than they possess individually.

> You've given me lots of good ideas to borrow from!

Remember what we previously preached about "square" being the holy grail
of cabinet making?

Want to understand how cabinets in factories and large scale cabinet
shops are made consistently square, where BOTH efficiency and square are
of paramount importance?

FACT: It's much, much easier to build a perfectly square "face frame",
with fewer parts, than it is to build/assemble perfectly square,
multiple part casework, and then attempt to add the face frame to the
casework.

So, use the same methods that the big boy cabinet shops and method
engineers in the factories use to insure their products garner the
multitude of benefits and value from building square products:

Build your face frames first, complete with grooves and dadoes ...
taking care to build it perfectly square (batch cutting FF parts,
dadoes, etc).

Only then do you assemble the casework parts (end panels, floors and
partitions) ... directly _on top of_ that perfectly square face frame
... and the grooves/rabbets/dadoes make it virtually impossible to go wrong.

Results: a perfectly square cabinet, with all the many benefits therefrom.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Thu, 06 Dec 2012 00:22:01 -0500, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>>> On 12/2/2012 6:06 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I started a new thread for this project.
>>>>
>>>> I have been thinking more about a face frame and cabinet
>>>> doors for my project.
>
>Somehow I came upon a site describing "partial inset doors" and
>acquainted myself with the terms: inset, lip and reveal (thanks Larry
>Jaques--that last term helped me get started). I learned inset and lip
>of 3/8" are pretty standard as is a 1" reveal (maybe that's more
>standard on kitchen cabinets, than tv-stands?)

Jewelcome.


>I found I was able to view (through Google) dozens, if not hundreds or
>more, or various pictures of cabinet doors. At this point I don't see
>how I could settle for cabinet doors I didn't have to agonize over! I
>hope this helps someone spill their morning cofee! It makes me laugh,
>sort of.

Bill OBSESSING? Whoda thunk it? <g>


>It's all fun and games until noticing that one end of the table is 3/4
>of an inch higher than the other end! : )

Helps with the runoff during a rainfall, right? What, you say it
doesn't rain in your living room? Oh. That could be a problem.
Measure the legs, cut to fit, sand to dewobble. If you have a large
assembly table, you can stick an 80grit PSA pad down, set the table on
the assy table, and rub the long leg over it a few times, then move
over 'til the legs are all on the table. Repeat until wobble goes
away.

--
...in order that a man may be happy, it is
necessary that he should not only be capable
of his work, but a good judge of his work.
-- John Ruskin

On 12/5/2012 11:22 PM, Bill wrote:
> Somehow I came upon a site describing "partial inset doors" and
> acquainted myself with the terms: inset, lip and reveal (thanks Larry
> Jaques--that last term helped me get started). I learned inset and lip
> of 3/8" are pretty standard as is a 1" reveal (maybe that's more
> standard on kitchen cabinets, than tv-stands?)

Be careful now ...these days about the only thing in the kitchen cabinet
business that screams "CHEAP" louder than lipped (partial inset) cabinet
doors is attaching a fake stile to one lipped door in a two door cabinet. :)

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

Bill wrote:

>
> I am gaining the impression that a good quality face frame is
> typically make out of pieces of genuine solid wood even when the rest
> of the cabinet carcase may be made from man-made materials. Is this
> the way that you would proceed? Admittedly, this makes me ponder
> whether wood expansion/contraction could weaken the glue joints
> holding the face frame to the carcase.
>

Well - since that's how fine quality furnishings are constructed, one might
guess...

>
>
> BTW, I tried out my new Milwaukee jigsaw in an unrelated house repair
> yesterday (cutting a few planks of Ash), and got very smoothe
> cuts--the best I've experienced from a jigsaw. However, my experience
> has been limited to the use of several of vintage Craftsman sabre
> saws, each of which had disuaded me from the use of such saws. I
> found the little LED light on the front to the Milwaukee saw very
> convenient too!

No doubt - your saw is in a completely different league than those old
Craftsman tools. You're going to love it more every time you use it. And -
those LED's are the ticket, aren't they?

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Swingman wrote:
> On 12/2/2012 6:06 PM, Bill wrote:
>>
>> I started a new thread for this project.
>>
>> I have been thinking more about a face frame and cabinet
>> doors for my project.
>
>> I am gaining the impression that a good quality face frame is typically
>> make out of pieces of genuine solid wood even when the rest of the
>> cabinet carcase may be made from man-made materials. Is this the way
>> that you would proceed?
>
> More often than not, absolutely correct. There are many valid methods to
> skin that cat, and we all have our favorites.
>
> Still have that Sketchup?
>
> Here's one way to make a solid wood face frame (I use pocket hole
> joinery for the rails and stiles in all cases), and how the face frame
> and casework go together:
>
> http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=7571eb024b5207f1b2c2cd006d206129&prevstart=0
>
>
> Here's a face frame only model that can be re-sized:
>
> http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=4bc56dea899d4062b2c2cd006d206129&prevstart=0
>

Mucho-Thanks!

If I understand the diagram, you have grooves along the backs of each of
the rails and stiles of the face frame. That is a marvelous way to
increase the gluing surface, if it fits! Note to self: Make sure the
grooves fit over all 4 of the outer faces of the carcase.

I assume that you use dominos where the rail and stiles meet (besides
pocket holes)? Without tenons, I can see that one could trim the
lengths for a perfect fit prior to assembly.

You've given me lots of good ideas to borrow from!

Bill

Bill wrote:

> I am gaining the impression that a good quality face frame is
> typically make out of pieces of genuine solid wood even when the rest
> of the cabinet carcase may be made from man-made materials. Is this
> the way that you would proceed?

Yes, it is the norm.

> Admittedly, this makes me ponder
> whether wood expansion/contraction could weaken the glue joints
> holding the face frame to the carcase.

Face frames are normally narrow, NP with expansion/contraction popping them
loose from the case. One can always attach them mechanically too; heck,
that is my norm...FF screwed to the case, no glue, screw holes plugged with
face grain plugs cut from same wood as the FF.


--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out...
http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On 12/3/12 7:49 AM, Swingman wrote:
>
> Remember what we previously preached about "square" being the holy grail
> of cabinet making?
>
> Want to understand how cabinets in factories and large scale cabinet
> shops are made consistently square, where BOTH efficiency and square are
> of paramount importance?
>
> FACT: It's much, much easier to build a perfectly square "face frame",
> with fewer parts, than it is to build/assemble perfectly square,
> multiple part casework, and then attempt to add the face frame to the
> casework.
>
> So, use the same methods that the big boy cabinet shops and method
> engineers in the factories use to insure their products garner the
> multitude of benefits and value from building square products:
>
> Build your face frames first, complete with grooves and dadoes ...
> taking care to build it perfectly square (batch cutting FF parts,
> dadoes, etc).
>
> Only then do you assemble the casework parts (end panels, floors and
> partitions) ... directly _on top of_ that perfectly square face frame
> ... and the grooves/rabbets/dadoes make it virtually impossible to go
> wrong.
>
> Results: a perfectly square cabinet, with all the many benefits therefrom.
>

This should be in a FAQ somewhere.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 12/3/2012 12:06 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 12/3/12 7:49 AM, Swingman wrote:
>>
>> Remember what we previously preached about "square" being the holy grail
>> of cabinet making?
>>
>> Want to understand how cabinets in factories and large scale cabinet
>> shops are made consistently square, where BOTH efficiency and square are
>> of paramount importance?
>>
>> FACT: It's much, much easier to build a perfectly square "face frame",
>> with fewer parts, than it is to build/assemble perfectly square,
>> multiple part casework, and then attempt to add the face frame to the
>> casework.
>>
>> So, use the same methods that the big boy cabinet shops and method
>> engineers in the factories use to insure their products garner the
>> multitude of benefits and value from building square products:
>>
>> Build your face frames first, complete with grooves and dadoes ...
>> taking care to build it perfectly square (batch cutting FF parts,
>> dadoes, etc).
>>
>> Only then do you assemble the casework parts (end panels, floors and
>> partitions) ... directly _on top of_ that perfectly square face frame
>> ... and the grooves/rabbets/dadoes make it virtually impossible to go
>> wrong.
>>
>> Results: a perfectly square cabinet, with all the many benefits
>> therefrom.
>>
>
> This should be in a FAQ somewhere.

I agree; it's great stuff!



>
>

Leon wrote:
> On 12/2/2012 9:35 PM, Bill wrote:
>> Swingman wrote:
>>> On 12/2/2012 6:06 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I started a new thread for this project.
>>>>
>>>> I have been thinking more about a face frame and cabinet
>>>> doors for my project.
>>>
>>>> I am gaining the impression that a good quality face frame is typically
>>>> make out of pieces of genuine solid wood even when the rest of the
>>>> cabinet carcase may be made from man-made materials. Is this the way
>>>> that you would proceed?
>>>
>>> More often than not, absolutely correct. There are many valid methods to
>>> skin that cat, and we all have our favorites.
>>>
>>> Still have that Sketchup?
>>>
>>> Here's one way to make a solid wood face frame (I use pocket hole
>>> joinery for the rails and stiles in all cases), and how the face frame
>>> and casework go together:
>>>
>>> http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=7571eb024b5207f1b2c2cd006d206129&prevstart=0
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Here's a face frame only model that can be re-sized:
>>>
>>> http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=4bc56dea899d4062b2c2cd006d206129&prevstart=0
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Mucho-Thanks!
>>
>> If I understand the diagram, you have grooves along the backs of each of
>> the rails and stiles of the face frame. That is a marvelous way to
>> increase the gluing surface, if it fits! Note to self: Make sure the
>> grooves fit over all 4 of the outer faces of the carcase.
>>
>> I assume that you use dominos where the rail and stiles meet (besides
>> pocket holes)? Without tenons, I can see that one could trim the
>> lengths for a perfect fit prior to assembly.
>>
>> You've given me lots of good ideas to borrow from!
>>
>> Bill
>>
>
> Bill the cabinets that I have been making lately, the last 14 cabinets
> in the past 2 years actually have front and back face frames. I did not
> use screws on the face frames but did use Domino's for the front and or
> a combination of lap joint and domino on the back face frames. All face
> frames mate with the carcase via dadoes in the mating sides.
>
> You mentioned that this all has to fit the outer faces of the carcase
> and that is very true. There is nothing wrong with using pocket hole
> screws except with my back face frames the screws would show from the
> front side. Additionally when you use pocket hole screws you are pretty
> much locked into the where every thing fits when it comes time to mate
> the carcase and the face frames. With Domino's you can use a wider
> mortise setting so that you have a little wiggle room. Basically I dry
> fit the carcase and also dry fit the face frame on top to insure it will
> all fit together. I then remove the face frame and glue it together,
> place it back on top of the of the dry fit carcase using waxed paper in
> between to keep them from sticking to each other.

Let me see if I understand what you are saying. If you were going to
make two FFs, you would glue and fit them to a dry-fit carcase, and then
glue (or pocket hole screw) the carcase and the FFs together the next day?



With slightly over
> sized mortices for the Domino's I get a little wiggle room, 1/8" or so.
> While this does not seem like a lot of wiggle it is often a great help
> especially when a single cabinet may have as many as 16 dadoes in the
> carcase and both face frames that all have to come together.
> Typically the wiggle room aids in assembly and disappears once all the
> pieces are in place and the clamps have every thing fitting as it should
> be while the glue sets.
> It is imperative that that your measurements and cuts are accurate and
> where they need to be.


It occurred to me today that I either need pre-dimensioned wood, or need
to hand or machine-joint my Cherry wood that I haven't got yet.
I have collected quite a few hand planes.

>> On 12/2/2012 6:06 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>
>>> I started a new thread for this project.
>>>
>>> I have been thinking more about a face frame and cabinet
>>> doors for my project.

Somehow I came upon a site describing "partial inset doors" and
acquainted myself with the terms: inset, lip and reveal (thanks Larry
Jaques--that last term helped me get started). I learned inset and lip
of 3/8" are pretty standard as is a 1" reveal (maybe that's more
standard on kitchen cabinets, than tv-stands?)

I found I was able to view (through Google) dozens, if not hundreds or
more, or various pictures of cabinet doors. At this point I don't see
how I could settle for cabinet doors I didn't have to agonize over! I
hope this helps someone spill their morning cofee! It makes me laugh,
sort of.

It's all fun and games until noticing that one end of the table is 3/4
of an inch higher than the other end! : )

Bill

On 12/6/2012 9:46 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 12/5/2012 11:22 PM, Bill wrote:
>> Somehow I came upon a site describing "partial inset doors" and
>> acquainted myself with the terms: inset, lip and reveal (thanks Larry
>> Jaques--that last term helped me get started). I learned inset and lip
>> of 3/8" are pretty standard as is a 1" reveal (maybe that's more
>> standard on kitchen cabinets, than tv-stands?)
>
> Be careful now ...these days about the only thing in the kitchen cabinet
> business that screams "CHEAP" louder than lipped (partial inset) cabinet
> doors is attaching a fake stile to one lipped door in a two door
> cabinet. :)

It was just a lesson I picked up, I'm not married to it.

An "inset" door adds more to the aura of craftsmanship, ay?

I agree that a "fake stile" would be off the charts cheap! it took me
a few seconds to even imagine one.

After I build a carcase, I can assess whether it will be able to support
inset doors or not--or maybe just one of each! : )

On 12/6/2012 12:39 PM, Bill wrote:
> On 12/6/2012 9:46 AM, Swingman wrote:
>> On 12/5/2012 11:22 PM, Bill wrote:
>>> Somehow I came upon a site describing "partial inset doors" and
>>> acquainted myself with the terms: inset, lip and reveal (thanks Larry
>>> Jaques--that last term helped me get started). I learned inset and lip
>>> of 3/8" are pretty standard as is a 1" reveal (maybe that's more
>>> standard on kitchen cabinets, than tv-stands?)
>>
>> Be careful now ...these days about the only thing in the kitchen cabinet
>> business that screams "CHEAP" louder than lipped (partial inset) cabinet
>> doors is attaching a fake stile to one lipped door in a two door
>> cabinet. :)
>
> It was just a lesson I picked up, I'm not married to it.
>
> An "inset" door adds more to the aura of craftsmanship, ay?
>
> I agree that a "fake stile" would be off the charts cheap! it took me
> a few seconds to even imagine one.
>
> After I build a carcase, I can assess whether it will be able to support
> inset doors or not

Oops, I should have said a carcase and a *face frame*!


--or maybe just one of each! : )
>

Bill wrote:

> I agree that a "fake stile" would be off the charts cheap! it took
> me a few seconds to even imagine one.

I can't say I agree with you (or Swingman) on this. The stile isn't fake
except that it isn't part of the face frame. What it does is give you
complete access to a large, double door cabinet.

Logically, large things are stored in large cabinets and if there were a
center stile on the face frame the size of storable items would be cut way
down.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out...
http://www.floridaloghouse.net

Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Thu, 06 Dec 2012 00:22:01 -0500, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>> I found I was able to view (through Google) dozens, if not hundreds or
>> more, or various pictures of cabinet doors. At this point I don't see
>> how I could settle for cabinet doors I didn't have to agonize over! I
>> hope this helps someone spill their morning cofee! It makes me laugh,
>> sort of.
>
> Bill OBSESSING? Whoda thunk it? <g>

I think the "Kid-in-a-candyshop" analogy fits pretty well.
Lots of oohing and ahhing! : )

My mom used to hand us kids the Sears catalog, and tell us to pick
something out. Like the Red Rider BB-Gun, with the compass in the stock.

Swingman wrote:
> On 12/6/2012 3:59 PM, dadiOH wrote:
>> Bill wrote:
>>
>>> I agree that a "fake stile" would be off the charts cheap! it took
>>> me a few seconds to even imagine one.
>>
>> I can't say I agree with you (or Swingman) on this. The stile isn't
>> fake except that it isn't part of the face frame. What it does is
>> give you complete access to a large, double door cabinet.
>
> On a properly designed, modern cabinet and properly hung/hinged doors
> I can get that without a center stile, and, better yet, without
> having to open and close cabinet doors in sequence:

Very true except I like solid wood overlay doors and need an area for
expansion/contraction.

"Solid" because I like the clean look; "overlay" because I can get cleaner
by doing away with pulls by cutting a short cove in the top centers. YMMV

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out...
http://www.floridaloghouse.net

Swingman,

You posted a SU drawing of assembled rails and stiles a short while back
(from your DC-WallCabinet).

I assume you knock down a wall in each of the stiles (so that the groove
is not obstructed by the side of the stile).
I assume you do this with the TS, carefully, while you're cutting the
other grooves,
as your machine will already be set-up for it after you cut grooves in
the respective rails.

If I understand your suggestions, I think a reasonable sequence of
operations (omitting the cabinet doors) is:

1. Glue faceframe parts together.

2. Cut the sides, top, and back of the cabinet to fit the face frame.

3. Glue the pieces from Step 2 together and into the face face

Please correct me if anything looks amiss! Your drawing will certainly
result in my making the "lip" on the bottom smaller
(and more sophisticated-looking)--1/8", then I would have made it. A
nice touch..

Cheers,
Bill


By the way, to my surprise I found I can get a 1/4" Cherry dowel at
Rockler for a few bucks. If I slice some notches (to avoid
glue-squeezeout) on the bottom 5/4" of a length of a dowel, will this
give me a suitable dowel for my casework joinery? I intend them for the
top and bottom in addition to the dado. I'm not sure it I need dowels
to secure the faceframe. I would prefer not to put dowels down the
front of the work unless it is suggested to help support the (heavy?)
cabinet doors. The impression I have is that glue is up to the task.

** Printed for further reflection. You're a clear writer. Thanks!!! **

Bill



Swingman wrote:
> On 1/8/2013 1:18 AM, Bill wrote:
>> Swingman,
>>
>> You posted a SU drawing of assembled rails and stiles a short while back
>> (from your DC-WallCabinet).
>>
>> I assume you knock down a wall in each of the stiles (so that the groove
>> is not obstructed by the side of the stile).
>> I assume you do this with the TS, carefully, while you're cutting the
>> other grooves,
>> as your machine will already be set-up for it after you cut grooves in
>> the respective rails.
>
> No, and AFTER assembly of the faceframe ... I almost always use my
> laminate router to join the grooves in the rails with the grooves in
> the stiles, and I almost always do it by hand, simply marking the
> lines with a square as extensions of the existing dadoes, and routing
> to that line.
>
> You can make a jig, and, IIRC, that is what Leon does, but I find I
> can do it much quicker with almost the same accuracy (this operation
> doesn't have to be the picture of perfection unless it is visible, in
> which case I will use a chisel to mark the edges of the joining
> groove, then either chisel it out or use the router by hand ... this
> latter method keeps the edges nice and crisp if they are going to be
> visible, which they rarely are)
>
>> If I understand your suggestions,
>
> Not "suggestions" ... this is a concise method/methodology, just as a
> "method engineer" would dictate in a factory setting as a sequence of
> events for fabrication of any part, including the whole. :)
>
>> I think a reasonable sequence of
>> operations (omitting the cabinet doors) is:
>>
>> 1. Glue faceframe parts together.
>
> Cut your dadoes and grooves in the face frame stiles and rail BEFORE
> you assemble the face frames (with the exception of the above).
>
> When making a "cabinet", you will find assembling the cabinet's face
> frame's with pocket hold joinery provides more than enough strength,
> and is a quick and elegant method.
>
>> 2. Cut the sides, top, and back of the cabinet to fit the face frame.
>
> Cut ALL your end panels (sides) and floors (top and bottom, usually
> the same dimension) at one time. Then
>
> Cut all dadoes/grooves in your end panels, then
>
>> 3. Glue the pieces from Step 2 together and into the face face
>
> Lay the face frame face down on a suitably flat surface. Glue and
> assemble the end panels and floors to each other, and to the face
> frame. Clamp, nail, screw as needed.
>
> 4. Once the above casework is assembled (without the back), double
> check your measurements for the back; cut backs to size; and glue,
> screw, nail in place as desired.
>
>> Please correct me if anything looks amiss! Your drawing will certainly
>> result in my making the "lip" on the bottom smaller
>> (and more sophisticated-looking)--1/8", then I would have made it. A
>> nice touch..
>
> I like having that 1/8" "lip" between the top of the bottom rail and
> the floor of the cabinet, and I use it all the time, in every cabinet
> I build, but it is optional ... some folks don't like it. I do.
>
> Why? That "lip" forces the floor of the cabinet to be perfectly flat,
> which can be difficult to do without the lip ... and, no matter how
> well you choose your stock, plywood is not always flat, and Murphy
> guarantees that the only non-flat part of the cabinet will end up
> where it looks the worst.
>
>> Cheers,
>> Bill
>>
>>
>> By the way, to my surprise I found I can get a 1/4" Cherry dowel at
>> Rockler for a few bucks. If I slice some notches (to avoid
>> glue-squeezeout) on the bottom 5/4" of a length of a dowel, will this
>> give me a suitable dowel for my casework joinery? I intend them for the
>> top and bottom in addition to the dado.
>
> That will work, but it is unnecessary. A properly sized, glued and
> clamped dado joint will suffice. Most of the time, where you may need
> some other type of mechanical fastener (screws, dowels, nails, brads),
> it may well be in area that will covered by trim on the outside of the
> cabinet ... in that case use an appropriately sized finish nail or brad.
>
> Another trick to reinforce a dado joint in a cabinet is to toenail a
> brad though the horizontal piece and into the vertical piece in such a
> manner that is almost invisible, and being careful to not breakthrough
> to the other side of the vertical pieces.
>
>> I'm not sure it I need dowels
>> to secure the faceframe.
>
> Gluing the face frame to the casework will usually suffice.
>
>> I would prefer not to put dowels down the
>> front of the work unless it is suggested to help support the (heavy?)
>> cabinet doors. The impression I have is that glue is up to the task.
>
> It is.
>
> That said, I am one of those folks who, after handling, viewing and
> observing some beautiful antique furniture from both the US and
> Europe, have NO problem whatsoever using a strategically placed
> mechanical fastener (finish nail/brad) in a visible part of a piece of
> furniture ... what was done by the old masters is good enough for me.
>
> I do take great care, as they did, in orderly, even placement of any
> fastener, respecting the direction of the grain, and using an
> appropriately colored filler that will make it almost
> indistinguishable for other elements of the natural wood.
>
> So be it ... in sixty years of making things out of wood I've not had
> a single remark in that regard
>
> And,for your Faceframes, by all means, spring for a Kreg pocket hole
> kit ... you will be glad that you did.
>

Swingman wrote:
> And, for your Faceframes, by all means, spring for a Kreg pocket hole
> kit ... you will be glad that you did.
>

I may wish I did. How about my new plate jointer? I'll be using it,
at least, for my panels in my cabinet doors.
I can see, however, that gluing biscuits may not be as quick and
convenient as making pocket hole joints.

By the way, I did buy the 2" blade to cut slots for the FF biscuits
(encouraged by your recommendation, IIRC), but I'm not sure (yet) whether
biscuits of that size have a role in this project. Noticing that the #20
biscuits are 1" wide makes me think I would better
use the #10 which are 3/4" wide to make a butt-joint using 3/4"
plywood. I need to revisit my book on plate-jointers.

As long as my angles come out "true" (90-degrees) everything should be
okay! At least, that's the way I heard the preachin'! : )

Bill

Bill wrote:
>
> As long as my angles come out "true" (90-degrees) everything should be
> okay! At least, that's the way I heard the preachin'! : )
>
> Bill

I wanted to share the drawing I did tonight with the kind folks here who
help make my progress possible, so I put it on my web site (the
earlier version is there too, just for the sake of comparison).

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

It's always rewarding to get feedback. And, it needs feet--how many I
don't know! :)

Cheers,
Bill

Bill wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>>
>> As long as my angles come out "true" (90-degrees) everything should
>> be okay! At least, that's the way I heard the preachin'! : )
>>
>> Bill
>
> I wanted to share the drawing I did tonight with the kind folks here
> who help make my progress possible, so I put it on my web site (the
> earlier version is there too, just for the sake of comparison).
>
> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>
> It's always rewarding to get feedback. And, it needs feet--how many I
> don't know! :)
>

Good job Bill. I'm curious why you feel the double layer for the top is
necessary? Have you considered corner bracing between the front rails and
the side rails (45 degree angle), which you could then drill to accept a
screw coming up from the underside into the bottom of the top? With the
dimensions of your project, a 3/4in top would be plenty strong enough
without doubling it up. Or... am I missing something in your design intent?

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Swingman wrote:
> AND, as we see here, SketchUp gives you the ability to benefit with a
> bit of collaboration and swapping of ideas.
>

You are very kind. Thank you for sharing so many ideas from your work.

Bill

-Steve- wrote:
> Bill <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
> Bill,
>
> Not sure if you know this but you can export an image of your project
> without the menu buttons by using File > Export > 2D Graphic.
>
> This allows you to create an image of whatever view is on your screen at
> the time without cluttering up the image. You can choose 4 different
> formats for the image (jpg, tif, bmp, and png).
>
> Hope this helps.
I didn't know that, and it will definitely help. Thank you!

BTW, are you the Steve from Indiana who teaches woodworking classes?


>
> Steve

Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>> Bill wrote:
>>> As long as my angles come out "true" (90-degrees) everything should
>>> be okay! At least, that's the way I heard the preachin'! : )
>>>
>>> Bill
>> I wanted to share the drawing I did tonight with the kind folks here
>> who help make my progress possible, so I put it on my web site (the
>> earlier version is there too, just for the sake of comparison).
>>
>> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>>
>> It's always rewarding to get feedback. And, it needs feet--how many I
>> don't know! :)
>>
> Good job Bill. I'm curious why you feel the double layer for the top is
> necessary?
I'm not sure whether it's "necessary", but I though it added structural
integrity, including securing the faceframe (close to where the cabinets
hang).
Otherwise the faceframe may not "feel" secure when the cabinets are
used, and
that would be sort of disappointing.

I like the idea of screwing the highest "top" on from below, but the 2nd
level sort of gets in the way (of doing that well). I may attach the top
with biscuits or dowels (or both--just a few biscuits for alignment).

Besides that I have been considering adding a 1" wide banding around the
top, with mitered corners, so
that I could route a profile into it. Maybe a gently-sloped "Roman Ogee"
shape onto to the top face?
I will surely need some sort of molding between the faceframe and the
top too. Maybe a simple cove (concave)?
Sometime I'll see what that combination looks like in SketchUp; this is
a new domain for me.

Part of me thinks I should just go begin work on the base, but I know
Swingman would advise that that's all wrong--one is
supposed to have a "more or less complete" vision before starting to cut
the wood! ; )

Cheers,
Bill


> Have you considered corner bracing between the front rails and
> the side rails (45 degree angle), which you could then drill to accept a
> screw coming up from the underside into the bottom of the top? With the
> dimensions of your project, a 3/4in top would be plenty strong enough
> without doubling it up. Or... am I missing something in your design intent?
>

Lew Hodgett wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>> I like the idea of screwing the highest "top" on from below, but the
>> 2nd
>> level sort of gets in the way (of doing that well).
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> That's why "stubby" screwdriver's exist or a 1/4"
> ratchet drive with a screwdriver bit, or even a right angle
> screwdriver drive.
>
> Lew
>
>
>
That ought to save time, and look better, to boot!

Bill

Sonny wrote:
>> Sometime I'll see what that combination looks like in SketchUp; this is
>> a new domain for me.
> You want an expert opinion, ask your wife. Those women have an eye, and/or the gene, for those details. Us guys don't got no sense when it comes to decorating.

My wife was an "army brat" who didn't develop that gene. I just
consulted with her (for fun), and got the acknowledgement thast these
decision are "all mine".
On the positive side, she is eager to have some finely crafted wooden
furniture (my words).

Cheers,
Bill

>
> Sonny

Swingman wrote:
>
> Here's the casework:
>
> https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopDiningRoomHutch2009#5663816516513022130
>
>
> Here's the casework with base attached:
>
> https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopDiningRoomHutch2009#5663816532739249570
>
>
> Here's what the base looks like from bottom side:
>
> https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopDiningRoomHutch2009#5663816543789641538
>
>
I alternated looking at picture 3 and 4 of the base for at least a half
hour before I figured out how complicated, or simple, the base really is
depending on one's point of view. At first I thought the cabinetry
rested on top of the base (silly me!)
Really remarkable construction (and evidently rock-solid).

If there are any other newbes reading who like cabinetry, I suggest they
not pass up this great lessson (and I think it's a tough one).

BTW, I don't think you learn technique like this at the table saw... and
I just proved that you don't need a table saw to learn this technique.
Wonderfully satisfying "solution"...

Bill

Swingman wrote:
>
> This particular piece your were talking about above, the base is an
> integral part of the bottom, and was actually built around, and
> attached to, the bottom cabinet as it was applied.
-- Thank you for including that little morsal! In my mind, I had
been struggling to make the case fit the base.
Given what can go wrong at assembly, it seems like the dado groove for
the floor should be cut just a tad deep (less than 1/16" say), so that
the corners of the base can meet perfectly. Is that reasonable thinking?
>
> On the first example in the previous post (Tansu stack-able cabinets),
> the base and the bottom cabinets are separate units, to make it easy
> to move around, and facilitate stacking the parts in different
> configurations:
>
> https://plus.google.com/photos/111355467778981859077/albums/5669704268273941697/5669704373306878306
>
>
> Both bases are built with the same approach,
--- But the latter one just has a rebate to hold the carcase right?
Or did you add more wood to the base (like in the "belt w/suspenders"
approach?)
The hardware that you used in the corners of the first example appears
stronger than the 2 pieces of wood (which appear just butt-jointed
together) under the levelers in the 2nd example (which I assume have the
same reinforcing intent). Is anything else reinforcing the corners of
the base that I can't see, like biscuits?

Maybe you have a hunch what the next incarnation of my TV-Stand will
look like?

The only other new thing that occured to me is that for an inset cabinet
door, a hungarian hinge attaches to the inside wall, I believe.
Presently my "inside wall" is also the end of my case and will be a
about 2 inches away or so. I assume that there is a hinge for an inset
cabinet door that attaches to the back and edge of the faceframe. I
need to learn more about them. Classes resume Monday, so I can mostly
just think and draw for the time being anyway. A detailed SketchUp parts
diagram will be a reasonable short term goal. I won't comit to a design
until I locate my hinges! I feel like I made some big steps this week!

Cheers,
Bill


> one that is certainly not my invention, but an old one which I
> basically copied/picked up from a cabinetmaker I had to good fortune
> to work with in England for a while, whose family had been in the
> business for a few hundred years.
>

Sonny wrote:
> On Friday, January 11, 2013 12:32:17 AM UTC-6, Bill wrote:
>
>> I will surely need some sort of molding between the faceframe and the
>> top too. Maybe a simple cove (concave)?
>
>> Sometime I'll see what that combination looks like in SketchUp; this is
>> a new domain for me.
> You want an expert opinion, ask your wife. Those women have an eye, and/or the gene, for those details. Us guys don't got no sense when it comes to decorating.
>
> Sonny

I'm not exactly sure why at least 3 of us want to make SketchUp users
out of everyone. But just for fun I drew a couple moldings, my first effort,
and took 2 snapshots (using Steve's tip on Exporting 2D images), just to
help illustratethat this is not a bad tool to experiment with
moldings.Iknow alot more is possible, asI subscribe to the free
SketchUcation Newsletter, but this only took 10 or 15 minutes, including
do-overs!

They are the 3rd and 4th image on my website (below), if anyone wants to
see. They are not intended to be glamour shots. I am just trying to
inform, and maybe entertain a little, and I learned a little in the
process. I'm a SU user who doesn't practice much, and Iprobably rate 2
out of 10and am aspiring to get to 3! : ) Search for the SketchUcation
Newsletter if you want to see really wondrous SU work.

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

Bill

Sonny wrote:
> Regarding the transition moldings, elements. I would suggest not
> making the molding so large or elaborate as to draw attention to
> itself. It is to be a transition piece, not necessarily a prominent
> design feature. When judging what molding to use, don't look at the
> molding. Look at the 2 features it is transitioning to-from, to make
> sure the transition is smooth and not interrupted by the molding,
> i.e., not interrupted by an over large or elaborate molding. Sonny

Thank you. That is helpful guidance.

Bill

-Steve- wrote:
> Bill <[email protected]> wrote in news:kcu6on012e1
> @news3.newsguy.com:
>
>> http://web.n
>
> Bill,
>
> Congrats. Your pictures are a lot cleaner without all the menu
> clutter. Every time I do something for the house I export a concept
> image to show SWMBO for her approval.
>

That's were I see the value in a utility like this. It serves no purpose in
helping me visualize or understand how parts of a project will go together
for me, but it is very helpful as a presentation tool for others to get an
idea what you're talking about. I have not used it so much as a
collaboration tool, but I can certainly see it's value there as well.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 12/3/2012 6:16 PM, Bill wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>> On 12/2/2012 9:35 PM, Bill wrote:
>>> Swingman wrote:
>>>> On 12/2/2012 6:06 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I started a new thread for this project.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have been thinking more about a face frame and cabinet
>>>>> doors for my project.
>>>>
>>>>> I am gaining the impression that a good quality face frame is
>>>>> typically
>>>>> make out of pieces of genuine solid wood even when the rest of the
>>>>> cabinet carcase may be made from man-made materials. Is this the way
>>>>> that you would proceed?
>>>>
>>>> More often than not, absolutely correct. There are many valid
>>>> methods to
>>>> skin that cat, and we all have our favorites.
>>>>
>>>> Still have that Sketchup?
>>>>
>>>> Here's one way to make a solid wood face frame (I use pocket hole
>>>> joinery for the rails and stiles in all cases), and how the face frame
>>>> and casework go together:
>>>>
>>>> http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=7571eb024b5207f1b2c2cd006d206129&prevstart=0
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Here's a face frame only model that can be re-sized:
>>>>
>>>> http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=4bc56dea899d4062b2c2cd006d206129&prevstart=0
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Mucho-Thanks!
>>>
>>> If I understand the diagram, you have grooves along the backs of each of
>>> the rails and stiles of the face frame. That is a marvelous way to
>>> increase the gluing surface, if it fits! Note to self: Make sure the
>>> grooves fit over all 4 of the outer faces of the carcase.
>>>
>>> I assume that you use dominos where the rail and stiles meet (besides
>>> pocket holes)? Without tenons, I can see that one could trim the
>>> lengths for a perfect fit prior to assembly.
>>>
>>> You've given me lots of good ideas to borrow from!
>>>
>>> Bill
>>>
>>
>> Bill the cabinets that I have been making lately, the last 14 cabinets
>> in the past 2 years actually have front and back face frames. I did not
>> use screws on the face frames but did use Domino's for the front and or
>> a combination of lap joint and domino on the back face frames. All face
>> frames mate with the carcase via dadoes in the mating sides.
>>
>> You mentioned that this all has to fit the outer faces of the carcase
>> and that is very true. There is nothing wrong with using pocket hole
>> screws except with my back face frames the screws would show from the
>> front side. Additionally when you use pocket hole screws you are pretty
>> much locked into the where every thing fits when it comes time to mate
>> the carcase and the face frames. With Domino's you can use a wider
>> mortise setting so that you have a little wiggle room. Basically I dry
>> fit the carcase and also dry fit the face frame on top to insure it will
>> all fit together. I then remove the face frame and glue it together,
>> place it back on top of the of the dry fit carcase using waxed paper in
>> between to keep them from sticking to each other.
>
> Let me see if I understand what you are saying. If you were going to
> make two FFs, you would glue and fit them to a dry-fit carcase, and then
> glue (or pocket hole screw) the carcase and the FFs together the next day?

Close ;~) No screws at all. The carcase parts are fitted with dadoes
also. I glue the front face frames together on the dry fit carcase,
turn all that over and do the same with the back face frame. Then I
pull the face frames off, front and back, glue the dado of the carcase
sides, top, and bottom, and glue all of that to the front and back face
frame dadoes at one time. I usually use 12~16 clamps to sandwich all of
that together.


>
> With slightly over
>> sized mortices for the Domino's I get a little wiggle room, 1/8" or so.
>> While this does not seem like a lot of wiggle it is often a great help
>> especially when a single cabinet may have as many as 16 dadoes in the
>> carcase and both face frames that all have to come together.
>> Typically the wiggle room aids in assembly and disappears once all the
>> pieces are in place and the clamps have every thing fitting as it should
>> be while the glue sets.
>> It is imperative that that your measurements and cuts are accurate and
>> where they need to be.
>
>
> It occurred to me today that I either need pre-dimensioned wood, or need
> to hand or machine-joint my Cherry wood that I haven't got yet.
> I have collected quite a few hand planes.
>
Yes you absolutely want stock that is precisely the size you think it is.