Setting a wagon tire

In article <[email protected]>, J. Clarke
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Working on a decorative wagon wheel in wood, but I'd really like to put
> a metal tire on it. Now, that's no trick if it's just for looks--make a
> steel ring that's close enough to the dimension that a little epoxy
> under it will hold it, but the devil in me wants to do a proper job and
> shrink the thing.
>
> Trouble is that this is a no-burn area so I can't just light a fire in
> the back yard and heat the tire.
>
> So, any ideas on how to go about this? The wheel is 2 feet in diameter,
> making the tire too big to fit in a barbecue or the like. If I was
> making a bunch of 'em I'd be tempted to just build a charcoal pit big
> enough and call it a barbie, but that's a lot of work for one wheel.
>
> And yeah, I know I can find a blacksmith, but I'm more interested in the
> making than in having a wheel.

I'm coming in late and you've probably already solved the problem. But,
if not, have you considered induction heating? No open flames, no
smoke, and I know it can be done with small pieces (bearings, e.g.)
with regular house current. Here's the relevant section from Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_heating
"Heating to fit"
"Induction heating is often used to heat an item causing it to expand
prior to fitting or assembly. Bearings are routinely heated in this way
using mains frequency (50/60 Hz) and a laminated steel transformer type
core passing through the centre of the bearing."

It might require a little research and initial expense. Both the
engineering and the outlay might be beyond your reach. I know it is
beyond mine.

-Frank

--
Here's some of my work:
http://www.sharpbywarner.com

"Robert Bonomi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Jack Stein <[email protected]> wrote:
>>CW wrote:
>>
>>> In the time it has taken to discuss this, I would have dug a shallow
>>> hole,
>>> filled it with charcoal and done it. This is a classic case of
>>> overcomplicating things.
>>
>>But then I wouldn't have known the history of the wheelwright, would not
>>have watched LOX light a charcoal grill, would not have seen what
>>happens when a bowl of Liquid Nitrogen is dumped in a swimming pool
>>(spin off of the LOX) would not have known HF sells a propane weed
>>burner for $12.

I've seen Barbecuing with Liquid Oxygen. Where's the liquid nitrogen one?

Steve

visit my blog at http://cabgbypasssurgery.com

On Aug 1, 5:07=A0am, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:

> That "burn permit" is the city wanting to make money under the guise of
> "environmentalism". It's about time some of these idiots started
> "disappearing".

No, it's a way of preventing yahoos from starting wild fires.

On Jul 31, 11:12=A0am, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 7/31/2010 10:13 AM, Larry W wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article<[email protected]>,
> > J. Clarke<[email protected]> =A0wrote:
> >> Working on a decorative wagon wheel in wood, but I'd really like to pu=
t
> >> a metal tire on it. =A0Now, that's no trick if it's just for looks--ma=
ke a
> >> steel ring that's close enough to the dimension that a little epoxy
> >> under it will hold it, but the devil in me wants to do a proper job an=
d
> >> shrink the thing.
>
> >> Trouble is that this is a no-burn area so I can't just light a fire in
> >> the back yard and heat the tire.
>
> >> So, any ideas on how to go about this? =A0The wheel is 2 feet in diame=
ter,
> >> making the tire too big to fit in a barbecue or the like. =A0If I was
> >> making a bunch of 'em I'd be tempted to just build a charcoal pit big
> >> enough and call it a barbie, but that's a lot of work for one wheel.
>
> >> And yeah, I know I can find a blacksmith, but I'm more interested in t=
he
> >> making than in having a wheel.
>
> > 2 feet in diameter is about the size of a large pizza. Will it fit
> > in your oven?
>
> No. =A021 wide by 17 deep. =A0There's also the question of whether it get=
s
> hot enough for good take-up. =A0The tire doesn't just have to fit, it has
> to be a little undersized when cold so that it loads the wooden parts in
> compression--that's where the strength of the wheel comes from. =A0500F
> will give about a quarter inch of expansion with low carbon steel, red
> heat will give close to a half inch. =A0The various 1800s and early 1900s
> blacksmithing journals suggest that the iron in use at the time would
> expand more than this.
>
> By the way, the large pizza from the big chains is 14-15 inch, the
> independents may go 18.

Three barbecues in a triangle?

According to this sectional tires are also authentic:
http://www.wheelwrights.org/craft_history_frame.html

I'd angle the ends of one felloe such that screws through the rim
wedge it in.

Long ago I watched the smith at Mystic Seaport finish a wheel. IIRC he
had a jig that clamped the wheel together and located the hot rim when
he dropped it on.

jsw

On Aug 4, 11:08=A0pm, "Steve W." <[email protected]> wrote:
> RicodJour wrote:
> > On Aug 4, 7:11 pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> It's not that rubber tires are "unholy"--their rule is no powered
> >> vehicles that can be driven on the highway and no rubber tires is a wa=
y
> >> to enforce it.
>
> > I'm not sure I follow - I've seen Amish wagons on the road, both with
> > rubber wheels and without. =A0What does that have to do with it being
> > powered? =A0None of the Amish wagons are powered.
>
> If you saw a buggy with rubber wheels it was NOT Amish. More likely
> Mennonite.
>
> Basically there are different orders of plain folks.
> Old order Amish - These are the ones who shun pretty much all modern
> technology, no powered machinery on the farm and maybe a phone stuck on
> a pole out in the middle of a field for all the "local" Amish to use.
>
> New order Amish - These allow some modern technology like generators and
> =A0solar power as well as some powered machinery on the farm with maybe a
> steel wheeled tractor or crawler allowed. They allow a phone in the barn
> or greenhouse and some even have a drivers license even though they are
> not supposed to drive cars.
>
> Mennonite - The closest to what we take for normal people. They allow
> tractors and rubber tires on the buggies, some even have cars. They do
> some stuff the old ways but also have cell phones and electricity in
> some places.

I hang out on newsgroups - maybe too much - and I don't know if I know
what a 'normal' person is anymore!

> >> Much of the Amish attitude toward technology is pragmatic--it's not th=
at
> >> it's "unholy", it's that they want to maintain a particular social
> >> structure of their community and they're perfectly happy to go with
> >> technologies that don't upset that social structure but they after due
> >> consideration forbid those that do upset it.
>
> > Different sects of the Amish have different takes on the rubber. =A0Som=
e
> > allow it, some don't. =A0Least that's what I've read. =A0And it's ownin=
g
> > things that creates the problem. =A0The Amish can take public
> > transportation and they'll hire buses when necessary.
>
> Yep, and they also hire out locals to take good to market sales and
> such. One of the locals has me drive him or his wife around quite a bit
> to different farmers markets. VERY nice folks. The neighbors are
> currently selling out their farm and I'm hoping that some friends of the
> =A0Amish I know buy it.

I hope the Amish buy this place:
http://newsfeed.time.com/2010/08/02/n-h-farm-on-sale-after-378-years-in-the=
-family/

I'd hate to be the one to make the decision to sell such a place.

R

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Working on a decorative wagon wheel in wood, but I'd really like to put a
> metal tire on it. Now, that's no trick if it's just for looks--make a
> steel ring that's close enough to the dimension that a little epoxy under
> it will hold it, but the devil in me wants to do a proper job and shrink
> the thing.
>
> Trouble is that this is a no-burn area so I can't just light a fire in the
> back yard and heat the tire.
>
> So, any ideas on how to go about this? The wheel is 2 feet in diameter,
> making the tire too big to fit in a barbecue or the like. If I was making
> a bunch of 'em I'd be tempted to just build a charcoal pit big enough and
> call it a barbie, but that's a lot of work for one wheel.
>
> And yeah, I know I can find a blacksmith, but I'm more interested in the
> making than in having a wheel.

Well, you could get a big tank of propane and/or other gas and just heat up
the whole thing. I would think tha it would take a fair amount of gas and
time.

As for a charcol pit, that would probsbly work. How about just making a
circular pit? Dig a hole in the ground a bit bigger than the wheel, but
leave the middle intact. So you are just heating the steel itself and not a
big unrelated area.

This seems like a whole lot of work and bother for a little authenticity.
Is it really worth all this trouble?

>
> No. 21 wide by 17 deep. There's also the question of whether it gets
> hot enough for good take-up. The tire doesn't just have to fit, it has
> to be a little undersized when cold so that it loads the wooden parts in
> compression--that's where the strength of the wheel comes from. 500F
> will give about a quarter inch of expansion with low carbon steel, red
> heat will give close to a half inch. The various 1800s and early 1900s
> blacksmithing journals suggest that the iron in use at the time would
> expand more than this.
>
> By the way, the large pizza from the big chains is 14-15 inch, the
> independents may go 18.
>
>

Clear a spot on the ground and pile some charcoal over it. Perhaps use old
bricks to shore up the outer diameter of the pile. I don't know if this
violates your 'no burn' statute, but you could say you are roasting a goat.

Judicious use of a high output propane weed burner would eventually work as
well.

-Bruce

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 7/31/2010 10:30 AM, Steve Lusardi wrote:
>> Simple, make the ring 1/8 small. Roll to shape and butt weld. Dress with
>> a grinder and heat with a rose bud acetylene torch . Set in place and
>> let it cool. No smoke, no noise and no problems.
>
> Thinking on this yet more, any recommendation on a starter setup for
> acetylene? Should I go with the Lincoln package that Lowes and Home
> Despot and the like have, or find a welding store and ask for advice or is
> there a standard first set that everbody has or what?
>
> If I'm going to spend the money I may as well get set up with something
> decent that can grow with me.
>
I used to make gym equipment and used acetylene to cut things. When I wanted
to heat something up to bend it I used propane. Now if you have other uses
for it, OK. But if this is the only thing you are going to do with it,
consider propane.

The welding rigs you get at the big box stores are cheapened to specs by the
stores. They wanted to sell something at a particular price point. The stuff
you buy at a real welding store is much better quality. Of course, you pay
for that quality.

I would, at the very least, go to a welding store or two and talk to them.
They are far more knowledgable and can steer you in the right direction.

Another thing to consider, the cost of tanks. Each area has their own
particular laws concerning tanks. Where I am, you cannot own them. You must
rent them. And they can only be transported in an upright position in a
secure carrier of some kind. There may be restrictions on even having tanks
at home. And if you do, you may need to post signs and notify the fire
department. Again, each area is different. This is another reason to talk to
the local welding store. They know all the regulations for the local area.
They need to if they want a viable business.

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> No. 21 wide by 17 deep. There's also the question of whether it gets
> hot enough for good take-up. The tire doesn't just have to fit, it
> has to be a little undersized when cold so that it loads the wooden
> parts in compression--that's where the strength of the wheel comes
> from. 500F will give about a quarter inch of expansion with low
> carbon steel, red heat will give close to a half inch. The various
> 1800s and early 1900s blacksmithing journals suggest that the iron in
> use at the time would expand more than this.
>
> By the way, the large pizza from the big chains is 14-15 inch, the
> independents may go 18.
>

You've got 27" to work with if you put it in diagonally. There's a third
dimension to be concerned about, but it's faster to try it than to work
on all the calculations.

It doesn't matter if your oven tops out before the wheel has expanded
enough, though. (But you knew this.)

Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.

"Steve W." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>>>>>
>
> You should talk to one of the local Amish smiths. In this area they are
> using a neat wheel. They look like the standard wood/steel construction.
> BUT they actually have a wood center/spokes/rim, Then they have a layer
> of rubber glued to that and a steel ring around all of it. The rubber
> gives a better ride and seems to lower the wear on the steel as well.
>
> --
> Steve W.

Sounds a bit fancy and prideful to me...

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in news:i32np002bm0
@news6.newsguy.com:

>>
>> You've got 27" to work with if you put it in diagonally.
>
> How do you figure? If I tilt it up front to back then I've only got the
> 21 width. If I tilt it side to side then I've only got the 17 depth.

Pythagorean theorem. This only would work if you've got enough height to
stand the wheel vertically across the oven.

Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.

"Michael A. Terrell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> ATP wrote:
>>
>> "Steve W." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> > You should talk to one of the local Amish smiths. In this area they are
>> > using a neat wheel. They look like the standard wood/steel
>> > construction.
>> > BUT they actually have a wood center/spokes/rim, Then they have a layer
>> > of rubber glued to that and a steel ring around all of it. The rubber
>> > gives a better ride and seems to lower the wear on the steel as well.
>>
>> Sounds a bit fancy and prideful to me...
>
>
> Why? It sounds like less labor, for a longer useful life.

I'm kidding, but the Amish have an unusual take on things. I guess rubber
under the steel is OK, but rubber tires would be unholy. But whatever
they're doing seems to be working for them. I wonder if they're still busy
making those stoves...

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 8/4/2010 4:44 PM, ATP wrote:
>> "Michael A. Terrell"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> ATP wrote:
>>>>
>>>> "Steve W."<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>
>>>>> You should talk to one of the local Amish smiths. In this area they
>>>>> are
>>>>> using a neat wheel. They look like the standard wood/steel
>>>>> construction.
>>>>> BUT they actually have a wood center/spokes/rim, Then they have a
>>>>> layer
>>>>> of rubber glued to that and a steel ring around all of it. The rubber
>>>>> gives a better ride and seems to lower the wear on the steel as well.
>>>>
>>>> Sounds a bit fancy and prideful to me...
>>>
>>>
>>> Why? It sounds like less labor, for a longer useful life.
>>
>> I'm kidding, but the Amish have an unusual take on things. I guess rubber
>> under the steel is OK, but rubber tires would be unholy. But whatever
>> they're doing seems to be working for them. I wonder if they're still
>> busy
>> making those stoves...
>
> It's not that rubber tires are "unholy"--their rule is no powered vehicles
> that can be driven on the highway and no rubber tires is a way to enforce
> it.
>
> Much of the Amish attitude toward technology is pragmatic--it's not that
> it's "unholy", it's that they want to maintain a particular social
> structure of their community and they're perfectly happy to go with
> technologies that don't upset that social structure but they after due
> consideration forbid those that do upset it.
>>
That makes more sense.

In article
<[email protected]>,
rangerssuck <[email protected]> wrote:
> > That "burn permit" is the city wanting to make money under the guise of
> > "environmentalism". It's about time some of these idiots started
> > "disappearing".

> No, it's a way of preventing yahoos from starting wild fires.

Does it work?

On Aug 4, 7:11=A0pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 8/4/2010 4:44 PM, ATP wrote:
>
> > I'm kidding, but the Amish have an unusual take on things. I guess rubb=
er
> > under the steel is OK, but rubber tires would be unholy. But whatever
> > they're doing seems to be working for them. I wonder if they're still b=
usy
> > making those stoves...
>
> It's not that rubber tires are "unholy"--their rule is no powered
> vehicles that can be driven on the highway and no rubber tires is a way
> to enforce it.

I'm not sure I follow - I've seen Amish wagons on the road, both with
rubber wheels and without. What does that have to do with it being
powered? None of the Amish wagons are powered.

> Much of the Amish attitude toward technology is pragmatic--it's not that
> it's "unholy", it's that they want to maintain a particular social
> structure of their community and they're perfectly happy to go with
> technologies that don't upset that social structure but they after due
> consideration forbid those that do upset it.

Different sects of the Amish have different takes on the rubber. Some
allow it, some don't. Least that's what I've read. And it's owning
things that creates the problem. The Amish can take public
transportation and they'll hire buses when necessary.

R

On Jul 31, 12:39=A0pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 7/31/2010 11:14 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>
> > On 7/31/2010 10:30 AM, Steve Lusardi wrote:
> >> Simple, make the ring 1/8 small. Roll to shape and butt weld. Dress wi=
th
> >> a grinder and heat with a rose bud acetylene torch . Set in place and
> >> let it cool. No smoke, no noise and no problems.
>
> > Can the whole two foot diameter wheel be brought to temperature at once
> > with a rose bud torch?
>
> Thinking about it, this is probably the way to go. =A0Push me off center
> to get an oxyacetylene rig.

Or build a Morris Dovey solar collector and heat it up parabolically.

R

On Aug 5, 9:22=A0am, [email protected] (Doug Miller) wrote:
>
> Or German Baptists (aka "Dunkers"). Their dress is almost identical to th=
e
> Amish, the men have the same beards, and they typically work in the same
> occupations (chiefly farming, cabinetmaking, and teaching). Their theolog=
y is
> very similar to the Amish, except that they're more accepting of modern
> technology. They use electricity, telephones, cars, and tractors. They do=
n't
> watch television or listen to the radio, and usually remove the stereos f=
rom
> their cars.

Hmmm, I think there must be some Dunkers living in the South Bronx.
Lots of stereos missing there.

R

On Jul 31, 12:10=A0pm, "Lee Michaels" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> > Working on a decorative wagon wheel in wood, but I'd really like to put=
a
> > metal tire on it. =A0Now, that's no trick if it's just for looks--make =
a
> > steel ring that's close enough to the dimension that a little epoxy und=
er
> > it will hold it, but the devil in me wants to do a proper job and shrin=
k
> > the thing.
>
> > Trouble is that this is a no-burn area so I can't just light a fire in =
the
> > back yard and heat the tire.
>
> > So, any ideas on how to go about this? =A0The wheel is 2 feet in diamet=
er,
> > making the tire too big to fit in a barbecue or the like. =A0If I was m=
aking
> > a bunch of 'em I'd be tempted to just build a charcoal pit big enough a=
nd
> > call it a barbie, but that's a lot of work for one wheel.
>
> > And yeah, I know I can find a blacksmith, but I'm more interested in th=
e
> > making than in having a wheel.
>
> Well, you could get a big tank of propane and/or other gas and just heat =
up
> the whole thing. I would think tha it would take a fair amount of gas and
> time.
>
> As for a charcol pit, that would probsbly work. How about just making a
> circular pit? =A0Dig a hole in the ground a bit bigger than the wheel, bu=
t
> leave the middle intact. So you are just heating the steel itself and not=
a
> big unrelated area.
>
> This seems like a whole lot of work and bother for a little authenticity.
> Is it really worth all this trouble?

Use the tire as the fire ring....
Once it is hot enough, install.

On Aug 5, 4:17=A0am, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 8/4/2010 11:08 PM, Steve W. wrote:
>
>
>
> > RicodJour wrote:
> >> On Aug 4, 7:11 pm, "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> =A0wrote:
> >>> On 8/4/2010 4:44 PM, ATP wrote:
>
> >>>> I'm kidding, but the Amish have an unusual take on things. I guess r=
ubber
> >>>> under the steel is OK, but rubber tires would be unholy. But whateve=
r
> >>>> they're doing seems to be working for them. I wonder if they're stil=
l busy
> >>>> making those stoves...
> >>> It's not that rubber tires are "unholy"--their rule is no powered
> >>> vehicles that can be driven on the highway and no rubber tires is a w=
ay
> >>> to enforce it.
>
> >> I'm not sure I follow - I've seen Amish wagons on the road, both with
> >> rubber wheels and without. =A0What does that have to do with it being
> >> powered? =A0None of the Amish wagons are powered.
>
> > If you saw a buggy with rubber wheels it was NOT Amish. More likely
> > Mennonite.
>
> > Basically there are different orders of plain folks.
> > Old order Amish - These are the ones who shun pretty much all modern
> > technology, no powered machinery on the farm and maybe a phone stuck on
> > a pole out in the middle of a field for all the "local" Amish to use.
>
> > New order Amish - These allow some modern technology like generators an=
d
> > =A0 solar power as well as some powered machinery on the farm with mayb=
e a
> > steel wheeled tractor or crawler allowed. They allow a phone in the bar=
n
> > or greenhouse and some even have a drivers license even though they are
> > not supposed to drive cars.
>
> > Mennonite - The closest to what we take for normal people. They allow
> > tractors and rubber tires on the buggies, some even have cars. They do
> > some stuff the old ways but also have cell phones and electricity in
> > some places.
>
> I understand that a surprising number of Amish have cell phones. =A0The
> way I saw it explained by one who has one is that he went to the Bishop
> or the elders or whatever they have (I forget the details) with this new
> thing and asked if he could try it. =A0He was told that he could, with th=
e
> understanding that he might have to give it up later if if was decided
> that such things were not acceptable.
>
> As to what makes a cell phone different from a wired phone, I suspect
> the wires have a good deal to do with it.

The Ohio Amish furniture company I bought my stuff from wasn't
connected to the grid but had cell phones, an took plastic. To power
the machinery they had a bank of three diesel generators. Other
furniture stores in the area had gas lighting. Rather surprising to
walk under a fixture in the middle of the summer.

"Joseph Gwinn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> The diameter (2') is only one of the three needed numbers. What is
> thickness
> and width?
>
> Joe Gwinn



In the time it has taken to discuss this, I would have dug a shallow hole,
filled it with charcoal and done it. This is a classic case of
overcomplicating things.

On Jul 31, 10:24=A0pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 7/31/2010 9:58 PM, CW wrote:
>
> > In the time it has taken to discuss this, I would have dug a shallow ho=
le,
> > filled it with charcoal and done it. This is a classic case of
> > overcomplicating things.
>
> Not an option. =A0If it was I would already have done it.

I don't understand something about this no-fire regulation. Where
exactly is it that you can't have a BBQ? Seems outlandish.

R

On Sat, 31 Jul 2010 09:06:16 -0400, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Working on a decorative wagon wheel in wood, but I'd really like to put
>a metal tire on it. Now, that's no trick if it's just for looks--make a
>steel ring that's close enough to the dimension that a little epoxy
>under it will hold it, but the devil in me wants to do a proper job and
>shrink the thing.
>
>Trouble is that this is a no-burn area so I can't just light a fire in
>the back yard and heat the tire.
>
>So, any ideas on how to go about this? The wheel is 2 feet in diameter,
>making the tire too big to fit in a barbecue or the like. If I was
>making a bunch of 'em I'd be tempted to just build a charcoal pit big
>enough and call it a barbie, but that's a lot of work for one wheel.
>
>And yeah, I know I can find a blacksmith, but I'm more interested in the
>making than in having a wheel.


Got a good rosebud for your torch?

Gunner


"A conservative who doesn't believe? in God simply doesn't pray;
a godless liberal wants no one to pray. A conservative who doesn't
like guns doesn't buy one; a liberal gun-hater wants to disarm us all.
A gay conservative has sex his own way; a gay liberal requires us all
to watch and accept his perversion and have it taught to children.
A conservative who is offended by a radio show changes the station;
an offended liberal wants it banned, prosecuted and persecuted."
Bobby XD9

How hot does it have to be?

The coefficient of thermal expansion for steel is 0.00000645in/in/deg F.

75 inches x 0.00000645 = 0.00048375 PER DEGREE INCREASE.

So, how much fit do you need?

In article <[email protected]>,
cavelamb <[email protected]> wrote:
>How hot does it have to be?
>
>The coefficient of thermal expansion for steel is 0.00000645in/in/deg F.
>
>75 inches x 0.00000645 = 0.00048375 PER DEGREE INCREASE.
>
>So, how much fit do you need?
>
Calculating the change in circumference is the 'hard way' to get the answer.

A 'hole' in a piece of 'something'(anything) expands at the *exactly* the
same rate as the material surrounding it.

So, the diameter will increase by 24*.00000645 inches per degree or,
.00015480 in/degree.

Assuming 70f ambient. heating to 500F gets 0.0665+" on the diameter, which
is almost exactly 1/15th of an inch. heating to 1000F gets 0.1439+" just over
1/7".

The tricky part is manhandling the two parts so the surfaces stay "parallel"
from inner side to outer side, and getting things in place before the tire
cools appreciably.

I'd be tempted to 'cheat', and subject the wooden wheel to a dry ice (or
similar) treatment, to -shrink- it as much as possible.

Also get the wood as _dry_ as possible before mounting the tire, and then
let it absorb moisture back to 'normal' level. every little bit helps. ;)

I'm with you on the ring. Should be real if possible.

How about a ring of charcoal brickets like used for the Bar-B-Que fires.
Maybe a small hill in the center of the main ring circle.

lay out the ring on the ground - make a row inside and outside - then
crunch them together, run a line of fire starter if you don't use auto-start ones.

So no real fire, just some bricks - and you can hose them down after wards.

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
"Our Republic and the Press will Rise or Fall Together": Joseph Pulitzer
TSRA: Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Originator & Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member. http://lufkinced.com/

On 7/31/2010 8:06 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
> Working on a decorative wagon wheel in wood, but I'd really like to put a metal
> tire on it. Now, that's no trick if it's just for looks--make a steel ring
> that's close enough to the dimension that a little epoxy under it will hold it,
> but the devil in me wants to do a proper job and shrink the thing.
>
> Trouble is that this is a no-burn area so I can't just light a fire in the back
> yard and heat the tire.
>
> So, any ideas on how to go about this? The wheel is 2 feet in diameter, making
> the tire too big to fit in a barbecue or the like. If I was making a bunch of
> 'em I'd be tempted to just build a charcoal pit big enough and call it a barbie,
> but that's a lot of work for one wheel.
>
> And yeah, I know I can find a blacksmith, but I'm more interested in the making
> than in having a wheel.

In article <[email protected]>,
Jack Stein <[email protected]> wrote:
>CW wrote:
>
>> In the time it has taken to discuss this, I would have dug a shallow hole,
>> filled it with charcoal and done it. This is a classic case of
>> overcomplicating things.
>
>But then I wouldn't have known the history of the wheelwright, would not
>have watched LOX light a charcoal grill, would not have seen what
>happens when a bowl of Liquid Nitrogen is dumped in a swimming pool
>(spin off of the LOX) would not have known HF sells a propane weed
>burner for $12.
>
>On the other hand, if it were me, I would have likely screwed up a wheel
>or two before asking, and another after asking before realizing there is
>more toit than meets the eye...

of course there is, this is the *very* special case of a _round_ toit.

In article <[email protected]>,
Stuart <[email protected]> wrote:
>In article
><[email protected]>,
> rangerssuck <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > That "burn permit" is the city wanting to make money under the guise of
>> > "environmentalism". It's about time some of these idiots started
>> > "disappearing".
>
>> No, it's a way of preventing yahoos from starting wild fires.
>
>Does it work?
>

Fairly well, actually. Not 100%, but the number of wildfires started
'per capita' is *way* down in the areas that do this.

CW wrote:
>
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > On Sat, 31 Jul 2010 21:39:49 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour
> > <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>On Jul 31, 10:24 pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>> On 7/31/2010 9:58 PM, CW wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > In the time it has taken to discuss this, I would have dug a shallow
> >>> > hole,
> >>> > filled it with charcoal and done it. This is a classic case of
> >>> > overcomplicating things.
> >>>
> >>> Not an option. If it was I would already have done it.
> >>
> >>I don't understand something about this no-fire regulation. Where
> >>exactly is it that you can't have a BBQ? Seems outlandish.
> >
> > A *lot* of places have no *open* fire regulations, at least part of the
> > time.
> > There are "Red Flag" warnings issued here on dry days (quite often in the
> > Winter). Some areas require a "burn permit" for an open fire.
>
> That "burn permit" is the city wanting to make money under the guise of
> "environmentalism". It's about time some of these idiots started
> "disappearing".


Be careful what you ask for, idiot.

ATP wrote:
>
> "Steve W." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > You should talk to one of the local Amish smiths. In this area they are
> > using a neat wheel. They look like the standard wood/steel construction.
> > BUT they actually have a wood center/spokes/rim, Then they have a layer
> > of rubber glued to that and a steel ring around all of it. The rubber
> > gives a better ride and seems to lower the wear on the steel as well.
>
> Sounds a bit fancy and prideful to me...


Why? It sounds like less labor, for a longer useful life.

cavelamb <[email protected]> fired this volley in
news:[email protected]:

> So, how much fit do you need?

Well, it ain't much, really. If you heated it up 500F, you'd get a 1/4"
(roughly) circumferential expansion, which would be 1/4 over pi inches in
diameter, or roughly a bit more than 1/16" diametral expansion.

That's enough, I'd say, to get it over a well-sized wheel. If not - if
you wanted to pull the wheel together tighter than you built it - heat it
up 1000F for an 1/8" increase.

On a wooden wheel, what you really need to do is make sure it will shrink
down further than the amount it burns away the wood before it's below
450F. That's more dependent upon the skill of the wheelwright in
mounting and chilling the tire than it is upon the actual temperature to
which it's heated.

LLoyd

"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung##spamblock**@hotmail.com> fired this volley in
news:[email protected]:

> If you heat it up, and then slide it onto the wooden wheel. Won't that
> char the wheel some?

It does, indeed. The "art" is in having it char away less wood than the
amount it will shrink after cooling. There are ways.

LLoyd

On Jul 31, 10:24=A0am, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 7/31/2010 9:44 AM, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
>
>
>
> > In article<[email protected]>,
> > =A0 "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> =A0wrote:
>
> >> Working on a decorative wagon wheel in wood, but I'd really like to pu=
t
> >> a metal tire on it. =A0Now, that's no trick if it's just for looks--ma=
ke a
> >> steel ring that's close enough to the dimension that a little epoxy
> >> under it will hold it, but the devil in me wants to do a proper job an=
d
> >> shrink the thing.
>
> >> Trouble is that this is a no-burn area so I can't just light a fire in
> >> the back yard and heat the tire.
>
> >> So, any ideas on how to go about this? =A0The wheel is 2 feet in diame=
ter,
> >> making the tire too big to fit in a barbecue or the like. =A0If I was
> >> making a bunch of 'em I'd be tempted to just build a charcoal pit big
> >> enough and call it a barbie, but that's a lot of work for one wheel.
>
> >> And yeah, I know I can find a blacksmith, but I'm more interested in t=
he
> >> making than in having a wheel.
>
> > A charcoal fire will do the trick, and most jurisdictions allow grills.=
=A0It's
> > the smoke they object to.
>
> > How big is the tire?
>
> <sigh> =A0Count up four paragraphs.

I counted up four paragraphs and it said some thing about finding a
blacksmith, but nothing about the size of the wheel.

How big is the wheel? {ducking}

R

On Sat, 31 Jul 2010 21:39:49 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Jul 31, 10:24 pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 7/31/2010 9:58 PM, CW wrote:
>>
>> > In the time it has taken to discuss this, I would have dug a shallow hole,
>> > filled it with charcoal and done it. This is a classic case of
>> > overcomplicating things.
>>
>> Not an option.  If it was I would already have done it.
>
>I don't understand something about this no-fire regulation. Where
>exactly is it that you can't have a BBQ? Seems outlandish.

A *lot* of places have no *open* fire regulations, at least part of the time.
There are "Red Flag" warnings issued here on dry days (quite often in the
Winter). Some areas require a "burn permit" for an open fire.

On Aug 2, 3:58=A0am, [email protected] (Robert Bonomi) wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
>
> >By the way, the large pizza from the big chains is 14-15 inch, the
> >independents may go 18.
>
> Yeahbut applies. =A0a standard commercial pizza oven holds typically
> *six* minimum (16-18") and will hit into the 8-900F range if pushed.
>
> Now, arranging to "borrow' a pizza place's oven, *that's* a whole nuther
> level of complexity. =A0<grin>

Not at all. Stick a flat metal circle on it, tell the pizza guy that
you'll pay him $20 to test out your new invention - The Pizza Magic
Oven Ring. Then after the 'test', grab the thing, run outside and
start pounding the wheel together in his parking lot.

R

On Jul 31, 9:06=A0am, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Working on a decorative wagon wheel in wood, but I'd really like to put
> a metal tire on it. =A0Now, that's no trick if it's just for looks--make =
a
> steel ring that's close enough to the dimension that a little epoxy
> under it will hold it, but the devil in me wants to do a proper job and
> shrink the thing.
>
> Trouble is that this is a no-burn area so I can't just light a fire in
> the back yard and heat the tire.
>
> So, any ideas on how to go about this? =A0The wheel is 2 feet in diameter=
,
> making the tire too big to fit in a barbecue or the like. =A0If I was
> making a bunch of 'em I'd be tempted to just build a charcoal pit big
> enough and call it a barbie, but that's a lot of work for one wheel.
>
> And yeah, I know I can find a blacksmith, but I'm more interested in the
> making than in having a wheel.

I've started searching YouTube directly. Google doesn't always find
pertinent videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DWjxWg__-vZ4&feature=3Dplayer_embedded

R

On Sat, 31 Jul 2010 14:57:25 -0400, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 7/31/2010 1:58 PM, Cross-Slide wrote:
>> On Jul 31, 12:10 pm, "Lee Michaels"<[email protected]> wrote:
>>> "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Working on a decorative wagon wheel in wood, but I'd really like to put a
>>>> metal tire on it. Now, that's no trick if it's just for looks--make a
>>>> steel ring that's close enough to the dimension that a little epoxy under
>>>> it will hold it, but the devil in me wants to do a proper job and shrink
>>>> the thing.
>>>
>>>> Trouble is that this is a no-burn area so I can't just light a fire in the
>>>> back yard and heat the tire.
>>>
>>>> So, any ideas on how to go about this? The wheel is 2 feet in diameter,
>>>> making the tire too big to fit in a barbecue or the like. If I was making
>>>> a bunch of 'em I'd be tempted to just build a charcoal pit big enough and
>>>> call it a barbie, but that's a lot of work for one wheel.
>>>
>>>> And yeah, I know I can find a blacksmith, but I'm more interested in the
>>>> making than in having a wheel.
>>>
>>> Well, you could get a big tank of propane and/or other gas and just heat up
>>> the whole thing. I would think tha it would take a fair amount of gas and
>>> time.
>>>
>>> As for a charcol pit, that would probsbly work. How about just making a
>>> circular pit? Dig a hole in the ground a bit bigger than the wheel, but
>>> leave the middle intact. So you are just heating the steel itself and not a
>>> big unrelated area.
>>>
>>> This seems like a whole lot of work and bother for a little authenticity.
>>> Is it really worth all this trouble?
>>
>> Use the tire as the fire ring....
>> Once it is hot enough, install.
>
>There's a notion, but will that get it properly red hot?

Sure, use a little LOX.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBLr_XrooLs

On Jul 31, 12:14=A0pm, Tim Wescott <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 07/31/2010 08:26 AM, RicodJour wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 31, 10:24 am, "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> =A0wrote:
> >> On 7/31/2010 9:44 AM, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
>
> >>> In article<[email protected]>,
> >>> =A0 =A0"J. Clarke"<[email protected]> =A0 =A0wrote:
>
> >>>> Working on a decorative wagon wheel in wood, but I'd really like to =
put
> >>>> a metal tire on it. =A0Now, that's no trick if it's just for looks--=
make a
> >>>> steel ring that's close enough to the dimension that a little epoxy
> >>>> under it will hold it, but the devil in me wants to do a proper job =
and
> >>>> shrink the thing.
>
> >>>> Trouble is that this is a no-burn area so I can't just light a fire =
in
> >>>> the back yard and heat the tire.
>
> >>>> So, any ideas on how to go about this? =A0The wheel is 2 feet in dia=
meter,
> >>>> making the tire too big to fit in a barbecue or the like. =A0If I wa=
s
> >>>> making a bunch of 'em I'd be tempted to just build a charcoal pit bi=
g
> >>>> enough and call it a barbie, but that's a lot of work for one wheel.
>
> >>>> And yeah, I know I can find a blacksmith, but I'm more interested in=
the
> >>>> making than in having a wheel.
>
> >>> A charcoal fire will do the trick, and most jurisdictions allow grill=
s. =A0It's
> >>> the smoke they object to.
>
> >>> How big is the tire?
>
> >> <sigh> =A0 =A0Count up four paragraphs.
>
> > I counted up four paragraphs and it said some thing about finding a
> > blacksmith, but nothing about the size of the wheel.
>
> > How big is the wheel? =A0{ducking}
>
> "The wheel is 2 feet in diameter, making the tire too big to fit in a
> barbecue or the like."

Okay, are we talking about J. Clarke's feet or yours? One of each...?
{ducking once again}

R

On Jul 31, 2:11=A0pm, Bruce <[email protected]> wrote:
> > ...
>
> Clear a spot on the ground and pile some charcoal over it. Perhaps use ol=
d
> bricks to shore up the outer diameter of the pile. I don't know if this
> violates your 'no burn' statute, but you could say you are roasting a goa=
t.
>...
> -Bruce

That's it! Just tell them you are resurrecting an ancient practice
that requires sacrificing a goat.

If you heat it up, and then slide it onto the wooden wheel. Won't that
char the wheel some?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On 7/31/2010 12:21 PM, Joseph Gwinn wrote:

>
> The diameter (2') is only one of the three needed numbers. What is
> thickness
> and width?

An inch wide, 3/16 thick.

Six guys with six torches? When I was more actively doing HVAC. The
boss and I would chit chat while we used two torches and two rolls of
solder to assemble 1 1/4 copper pipe for boiler heat systems.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


"J. Clarke" <[email protected]>
wrote in message news:[email protected]...

> Can the whole two foot diameter wheel be brought to temperature at
> once
> with a rose bud torch?

Thinking about it, this is probably the way to go. Push me off center
to get an oxyacetylene rig.

J. Clarke wrote:
>
> It's a no burn ordinance, not a no smoke ordinance. It's the fire not
> in a fireproof container that's the issue, not the smoke.
>

So put the wheel, tire, a bag of charcoal, some matches, a few tools, and
firebrick in your car and drive down the road to somewhere that's not so
anal.

How hard could that be?

On Sat, 31 Jul 2010 18:00:14 -0400, Joseph Gwinn <[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>> On 7/31/2010 4:09 PM, Artemus wrote:
>> > "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>> > news:[email protected]...
>> >> Working on a decorative wagon wheel in wood, but I'd really like to put
>> >> a metal tire on it. Now, that's no trick if it's just for looks--make a
>> >> steel ring that's close enough to the dimension that a little epoxy
>> >> under it will hold it, but the devil in me wants to do a proper job and
>> >> shrink the thing.
>> >>
>> >> Trouble is that this is a no-burn area so I can't just light a fire in
>> >> the back yard and heat the tire.
>> >>
>> >> So, any ideas on how to go about this? The wheel is 2 feet in diameter,
>> >> making the tire too big to fit in a barbecue or the like. If I was
>> >> making a bunch of 'em I'd be tempted to just build a charcoal pit big
>> >> enough and call it a barbie, but that's a lot of work for one wheel.
>> >>
>> >> And yeah, I know I can find a blacksmith, but I'm more interested in the
>> >> making than in having a wheel.
>> >
>> > There's no need to dig a pit. Just set the rim on the ground and raise it
>> > up about an inch or two with rocks or anything that won't burn. Cover
>> > the entire rim with charcoal and light it. There's no need for charcoal in
>> > the center of the circle. It shouldn't burn with any more smoke than a
>> > bbq.
>>
>> It's a no burn ordinance, not a no smoke ordinance. It's the fire not
>> in a fireproof container that's the issue, not the smoke.
>
>A ring of firebrick laying on the ground is by definition a fireproof container.
>That's what firebrick is made for. So would a sheet of steel qualify.
>
>I would get a copy of the actual ordinance and see what it *really* requires.

They're probably concerned about sparks flying, catching the rest of the state
on fire.

In article <[email protected]>,
J. Clarke <[email protected]> wrote:
>Working on a decorative wagon wheel in wood, but I'd really like to put
>a metal tire on it. Now, that's no trick if it's just for looks--make a
>steel ring that's close enough to the dimension that a little epoxy
>under it will hold it, but the devil in me wants to do a proper job and
>shrink the thing.
>
>Trouble is that this is a no-burn area so I can't just light a fire in
>the back yard and heat the tire.
>
>So, any ideas on how to go about this? The wheel is 2 feet in diameter,
>making the tire too big to fit in a barbecue or the like. If I was
>making a bunch of 'em I'd be tempted to just build a charcoal pit big
>enough and call it a barbie, but that's a lot of work for one wheel.
>
>And yeah, I know I can find a blacksmith, but I'm more interested in the
>making than in having a wheel.

2 feet in diameter is about the size of a large pizza. Will it fit
in your oven?


--
When the game is over, the pawn and the king are returned to the same box.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar.org

Simple, make the ring 1/8 small. Roll to shape and butt weld. Dress with a grinder and heat with a rose bud acetylene torch . Set
in place and let it cool. No smoke, no noise and no problems.
Steve

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Working on a decorative wagon wheel in wood, but I'd really like to put a metal tire on it. Now, that's no trick if it's just
> for looks--make a steel ring that's close enough to the dimension that a little epoxy under it will hold it, but the devil in me
> wants to do a proper job and shrink the thing.
>
> Trouble is that this is a no-burn area so I can't just light a fire in the back yard and heat the tire.
>
> So, any ideas on how to go about this? The wheel is 2 feet in diameter, making the tire too big to fit in a barbecue or the
> like. If I was making a bunch of 'em I'd be tempted to just build a charcoal pit big enough and call it a barbie, but that's a
> lot of work for one wheel.
>
> And yeah, I know I can find a blacksmith, but I'm more interested in the making than in having a wheel.

On 7/31/2010 9:44 AM, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
> In article<[email protected]>,
> "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Working on a decorative wagon wheel in wood, but I'd really like to put
>> a metal tire on it. Now, that's no trick if it's just for looks--make a
>> steel ring that's close enough to the dimension that a little epoxy
>> under it will hold it, but the devil in me wants to do a proper job and
>> shrink the thing.
>>
>> Trouble is that this is a no-burn area so I can't just light a fire in
>> the back yard and heat the tire.
>>
>> So, any ideas on how to go about this? The wheel is 2 feet in diameter,
>> making the tire too big to fit in a barbecue or the like. If I was
>> making a bunch of 'em I'd be tempted to just build a charcoal pit big
>> enough and call it a barbie, but that's a lot of work for one wheel.
>>
>> And yeah, I know I can find a blacksmith, but I'm more interested in the
>> making than in having a wheel.
>
> A charcoal fire will do the trick, and most jurisdictions allow grills. It's
> the smoke they object to.
>
> How big is the tire?

<sigh> Count up four paragraphs.

On 7/31/2010 10:30 AM, Steve Lusardi wrote:
> Simple, make the ring 1/8 small. Roll to shape and butt weld. Dress with
> a grinder and heat with a rose bud acetylene torch . Set in place and
> let it cool. No smoke, no noise and no problems.

Can the whole two foot diameter wheel be brought to temperature at once
with a rose bud torch?

> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Working on a decorative wagon wheel in wood, but I'd really like to
>> put a metal tire on it. Now, that's no trick if it's just for
>> looks--make a steel ring that's close enough to the dimension that a
>> little epoxy under it will hold it, but the devil in me wants to do a
>> proper job and shrink the thing.
>>
>> Trouble is that this is a no-burn area so I can't just light a fire in
>> the back yard and heat the tire.
>>
>> So, any ideas on how to go about this? The wheel is 2 feet in
>> diameter, making the tire too big to fit in a barbecue or the like. If
>> I was making a bunch of 'em I'd be tempted to just build a charcoal
>> pit big enough and call it a barbie, but that's a lot of work for one
>> wheel.
>>
>> And yeah, I know I can find a blacksmith, but I'm more interested in
>> the making than in having a wheel.
>

On 7/31/2010 10:13 AM, Larry W wrote:
> In article<[email protected]>,
> J. Clarke<[email protected]> wrote:
>> Working on a decorative wagon wheel in wood, but I'd really like to put
>> a metal tire on it. Now, that's no trick if it's just for looks--make a
>> steel ring that's close enough to the dimension that a little epoxy
>> under it will hold it, but the devil in me wants to do a proper job and
>> shrink the thing.
>>
>> Trouble is that this is a no-burn area so I can't just light a fire in
>> the back yard and heat the tire.
>>
>> So, any ideas on how to go about this? The wheel is 2 feet in diameter,
>> making the tire too big to fit in a barbecue or the like. If I was
>> making a bunch of 'em I'd be tempted to just build a charcoal pit big
>> enough and call it a barbie, but that's a lot of work for one wheel.
>>
>> And yeah, I know I can find a blacksmith, but I'm more interested in the
>> making than in having a wheel.
>
> 2 feet in diameter is about the size of a large pizza. Will it fit
> in your oven?

No. 21 wide by 17 deep. There's also the question of whether it gets
hot enough for good take-up. The tire doesn't just have to fit, it has
to be a little undersized when cold so that it loads the wooden parts in
compression--that's where the strength of the wheel comes from. 500F
will give about a quarter inch of expansion with low carbon steel, red
heat will give close to a half inch. The various 1800s and early 1900s
blacksmithing journals suggest that the iron in use at the time would
expand more than this.

By the way, the large pizza from the big chains is 14-15 inch, the
independents may go 18.

On 7/31/2010 11:14 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
> On 7/31/2010 10:30 AM, Steve Lusardi wrote:
>> Simple, make the ring 1/8 small. Roll to shape and butt weld. Dress with
>> a grinder and heat with a rose bud acetylene torch . Set in place and
>> let it cool. No smoke, no noise and no problems.
>
> Can the whole two foot diameter wheel be brought to temperature at once
> with a rose bud torch?

Thinking about it, this is probably the way to go. Push me off center
to get an oxyacetylene rig.

>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Working on a decorative wagon wheel in wood, but I'd really like to
>>> put a metal tire on it. Now, that's no trick if it's just for
>>> looks--make a steel ring that's close enough to the dimension that a
>>> little epoxy under it will hold it, but the devil in me wants to do a
>>> proper job and shrink the thing.
>>>
>>> Trouble is that this is a no-burn area so I can't just light a fire in
>>> the back yard and heat the tire.
>>>
>>> So, any ideas on how to go about this? The wheel is 2 feet in
>>> diameter, making the tire too big to fit in a barbecue or the like. If
>>> I was making a bunch of 'em I'd be tempted to just build a charcoal
>>> pit big enough and call it a barbie, but that's a lot of work for one
>>> wheel.
>>>
>>> And yeah, I know I can find a blacksmith, but I'm more interested in
>>> the making than in having a wheel.
>>
>

On 7/31/2010 12:21 PM, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
> In article<[email protected]>,
> Tim Wescott<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 07/31/2010 08:26 AM, RicodJour wrote:
>>> On Jul 31, 10:24 am, "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> On 7/31/2010 9:44 AM, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> In article<[email protected]>,
>>>>> "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Working on a decorative wagon wheel in wood, but I'd really like to put
>>>>>> a metal tire on it. Now, that's no trick if it's just for looks--make a
>>>>>> steel ring that's close enough to the dimension that a little epoxy
>>>>>> under it will hold it, but the devil in me wants to do a proper job and
>>>>>> shrink the thing.
>>>>
>>>>>> Trouble is that this is a no-burn area so I can't just light a fire in
>>>>>> the back yard and heat the tire.
>>>>
>>>>>> So, any ideas on how to go about this? The wheel is 2 feet in diameter,
>>>>>> making the tire too big to fit in a barbecue or the like. If I was
>>>>>> making a bunch of 'em I'd be tempted to just build a charcoal pit big
>>>>>> enough and call it a barbie, but that's a lot of work for one wheel.
>>>>
>>>>>> And yeah, I know I can find a blacksmith, but I'm more interested in the
>>>>>> making than in having a wheel.
>>>>
>>>>> A charcoal fire will do the trick, and most jurisdictions allow grills.
>>>>> It's
>>>>> the smoke they object to.
>>>>
>>>>> How big is the tire?
>>>>
>>>> <sigh> Count up four paragraphs.
>>>
>>> I counted up four paragraphs and it said some thing about finding a
>>> blacksmith, but nothing about the size of the wheel.
>>>
>>> How big is the wheel? {ducking}
>>
>> "The wheel is 2 feet in diameter, making the tire too big to fit in a
>> barbecue or the like."
>
> The diameter (2') is only one of the three needed numbers. What is thickness
> and width?

An inch wide, 3/16 thick.

On 7/31/2010 1:10 PM, Lee Michaels wrote:
> "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Working on a decorative wagon wheel in wood, but I'd really like to put a
>> metal tire on it. Now, that's no trick if it's just for looks--make a
>> steel ring that's close enough to the dimension that a little epoxy under
>> it will hold it, but the devil in me wants to do a proper job and shrink
>> the thing.
>>
>> Trouble is that this is a no-burn area so I can't just light a fire in the
>> back yard and heat the tire.
>>
>> So, any ideas on how to go about this? The wheel is 2 feet in diameter,
>> making the tire too big to fit in a barbecue or the like. If I was making
>> a bunch of 'em I'd be tempted to just build a charcoal pit big enough and
>> call it a barbie, but that's a lot of work for one wheel.
>>
>> And yeah, I know I can find a blacksmith, but I'm more interested in the
>> making than in having a wheel.
>
> Well, you could get a big tank of propane and/or other gas and just heat up
> the whole thing. I would think tha it would take a fair amount of gas and
> time.
>
> As for a charcol pit, that would probsbly work. How about just making a
> circular pit? Dig a hole in the ground a bit bigger than the wheel, but
> leave the middle intact. So you are just heating the steel itself and not a
> big unrelated area.
>
> This seems like a whole lot of work and bother for a little authenticity.
> Is it really worth all this trouble?

It's about the journey, not the destination. I'd like to do it just so
I know I can.

On 7/31/2010 1:58 PM, Cross-Slide wrote:
> On Jul 31, 12:10 pm, "Lee Michaels"<[email protected]> wrote:
>> "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>
>>
>>> Working on a decorative wagon wheel in wood, but I'd really like to put a
>>> metal tire on it. Now, that's no trick if it's just for looks--make a
>>> steel ring that's close enough to the dimension that a little epoxy under
>>> it will hold it, but the devil in me wants to do a proper job and shrink
>>> the thing.
>>
>>> Trouble is that this is a no-burn area so I can't just light a fire in the
>>> back yard and heat the tire.
>>
>>> So, any ideas on how to go about this? The wheel is 2 feet in diameter,
>>> making the tire too big to fit in a barbecue or the like. If I was making
>>> a bunch of 'em I'd be tempted to just build a charcoal pit big enough and
>>> call it a barbie, but that's a lot of work for one wheel.
>>
>>> And yeah, I know I can find a blacksmith, but I'm more interested in the
>>> making than in having a wheel.
>>
>> Well, you could get a big tank of propane and/or other gas and just heat up
>> the whole thing. I would think tha it would take a fair amount of gas and
>> time.
>>
>> As for a charcol pit, that would probsbly work. How about just making a
>> circular pit? Dig a hole in the ground a bit bigger than the wheel, but
>> leave the middle intact. So you are just heating the steel itself and not a
>> big unrelated area.
>>
>> This seems like a whole lot of work and bother for a little authenticity.
>> Is it really worth all this trouble?
>
> Use the tire as the fire ring....
> Once it is hot enough, install.

There's a notion, but will that get it properly red hot?

On 7/31/2010 1:32 PM, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
> In article<[email protected]>, "J. Clarke"<[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> On 7/31/2010 12:21 PM, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
>>> In article<[email protected]>,
>>> Tim Wescott<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 07/31/2010 08:26 AM, RicodJour wrote:
>>>>> On Jul 31, 10:24 am, "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>> On 7/31/2010 9:44 AM, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In article<[email protected]>,
>>>>>>> "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Working on a decorative wagon wheel in wood, but I'd really like to
>>>>>>>> put
>>>>>>>> a metal tire on it. Now, that's no trick if it's just for looks--make
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> steel ring that's close enough to the dimension that a little epoxy
>>>>>>>> under it will hold it, but the devil in me wants to do a proper job
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> shrink the thing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Trouble is that this is a no-burn area so I can't just light a fire in
>>>>>>>> the back yard and heat the tire.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So, any ideas on how to go about this? The wheel is 2 feet in
>>>>>>>> diameter,
>>>>>>>> making the tire too big to fit in a barbecue or the like. If I was
>>>>>>>> making a bunch of 'em I'd be tempted to just build a charcoal pit big
>>>>>>>> enough and call it a barbie, but that's a lot of work for one wheel.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And yeah, I know I can find a blacksmith, but I'm more interested in
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> making than in having a wheel.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A charcoal fire will do the trick, and most jurisdictions allow grills.
>>>>>>> It's
>>>>>>> the smoke they object to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How big is the tire?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <sigh> Count up four paragraphs.
>>>>>
>>>>> I counted up four paragraphs and it said some thing about finding a
>>>>> blacksmith, but nothing about the size of the wheel.
>>>>>
>>>>> How big is the wheel? {ducking}
>>>>
>>>> "The wheel is 2 feet in diameter, making the tire too big to fit in a
>>>> barbecue or the like."
>>>
>>> The diameter (2') is only one of the three needed numbers. What is
>>> thickness
>>> and width?
>>
>> An inch wide, 3/16 thick.
>
> Ahh. That's reasonably substantial. Thinner would be herder to keep hot using
> a torch. I bet a propane weedburner would do the job, especially if the heat
> were confined with some firebricks.

That's another good idea, appeals to the small boy in me, and is cheaper
than an oxyacetylene rig. So should I go for the 500,000 BTU Red
Dragon, the 100,000, whatever Home Despot has, or the 12.99 Harbor
Freight jobbie?

Wish I'd thought about using one of those when I was trying to get my
muffler off a while back, but I'd have probably just set the Jeep on fire.

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Working on a decorative wagon wheel in wood, but I'd really like to put
> a metal tire on it. Now, that's no trick if it's just for looks--make a
> steel ring that's close enough to the dimension that a little epoxy
> under it will hold it, but the devil in me wants to do a proper job and
> shrink the thing.
>
> Trouble is that this is a no-burn area so I can't just light a fire in
> the back yard and heat the tire.
>
> So, any ideas on how to go about this? The wheel is 2 feet in diameter,
> making the tire too big to fit in a barbecue or the like. If I was
> making a bunch of 'em I'd be tempted to just build a charcoal pit big
> enough and call it a barbie, but that's a lot of work for one wheel.
>
> And yeah, I know I can find a blacksmith, but I'm more interested in the
> making than in having a wheel.

There's no need to dig a pit. Just set the rim on the ground and raise it
up about an inch or two with rocks or anything that won't burn. Cover
the entire rim with charcoal and light it. There's no need for charcoal in
the center of the circle. It shouldn't burn with any more smoke than a
bbq. Raising the rim gives room for air to get to the charcoal under it
and will heat it better. Underhill, the Woodwright, did a show years
back on this very subject. The actual fitting required some fine adjustments
with a sledgehammer, and be sure to have plenty of buckets of water handy
for when the fitting is done.
Art

On 7/31/2010 10:30 AM, Steve Lusardi wrote:
> Simple, make the ring 1/8 small. Roll to shape and butt weld. Dress with
> a grinder and heat with a rose bud acetylene torch . Set in place and
> let it cool. No smoke, no noise and no problems.

Thinking on this yet more, any recommendation on a starter setup for
acetylene? Should I go with the Lincoln package that Lowes and Home
Despot and the like have, or find a welding store and ask for advice or
is there a standard first set that everbody has or what?

If I'm going to spend the money I may as well get set up with something
decent that can grow with me.

Jim Wilkins wrote:
...

> That's it! Just tell them you are resurrecting an ancient practice
> that requires sacrificing a goat.

Not that ancient around here, it seems from the number entrails bags we
get in the fields and road ditches... :(

--

RicodJour wrote:
...
> Or build a Morris Dovey solar collector and heat it up parabolically.
...

chuckle...

--

On 7/31/2010 4:09 PM, Artemus wrote:
> "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Working on a decorative wagon wheel in wood, but I'd really like to put
>> a metal tire on it. Now, that's no trick if it's just for looks--make a
>> steel ring that's close enough to the dimension that a little epoxy
>> under it will hold it, but the devil in me wants to do a proper job and
>> shrink the thing.
>>
>> Trouble is that this is a no-burn area so I can't just light a fire in
>> the back yard and heat the tire.
>>
>> So, any ideas on how to go about this? The wheel is 2 feet in diameter,
>> making the tire too big to fit in a barbecue or the like. If I was
>> making a bunch of 'em I'd be tempted to just build a charcoal pit big
>> enough and call it a barbie, but that's a lot of work for one wheel.
>>
>> And yeah, I know I can find a blacksmith, but I'm more interested in the
>> making than in having a wheel.
>
> There's no need to dig a pit. Just set the rim on the ground and raise it
> up about an inch or two with rocks or anything that won't burn. Cover
> the entire rim with charcoal and light it. There's no need for charcoal in
> the center of the circle. It shouldn't burn with any more smoke than a
> bbq.

It's a no burn ordinance, not a no smoke ordinance. It's the fire not
in a fireproof container that's the issue, not the smoke.

> Raising the rim gives room for air to get to the charcoal under it
> and will heat it better. Underhill, the Woodwright, did a show years
> back on this very subject. The actual fitting required some fine adjustments
> with a sledgehammer, and be sure to have plenty of buckets of water handy
> for when the fitting is done.
> Art
>
>

On 7/31/2010 6:00 PM, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
> In article<[email protected]>, "J. Clarke"<[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> On 7/31/2010 4:09 PM, Artemus wrote:
>>> "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> Working on a decorative wagon wheel in wood, but I'd really like to put
>>>> a metal tire on it. Now, that's no trick if it's just for looks--make a
>>>> steel ring that's close enough to the dimension that a little epoxy
>>>> under it will hold it, but the devil in me wants to do a proper job and
>>>> shrink the thing.
>>>>
>>>> Trouble is that this is a no-burn area so I can't just light a fire in
>>>> the back yard and heat the tire.
>>>>
>>>> So, any ideas on how to go about this? The wheel is 2 feet in diameter,
>>>> making the tire too big to fit in a barbecue or the like. If I was
>>>> making a bunch of 'em I'd be tempted to just build a charcoal pit big
>>>> enough and call it a barbie, but that's a lot of work for one wheel.
>>>>
>>>> And yeah, I know I can find a blacksmith, but I'm more interested in the
>>>> making than in having a wheel.
>>>
>>> There's no need to dig a pit. Just set the rim on the ground and raise it
>>> up about an inch or two with rocks or anything that won't burn. Cover
>>> the entire rim with charcoal and light it. There's no need for charcoal in
>>> the center of the circle. It shouldn't burn with any more smoke than a
>>> bbq.
>>
>> It's a no burn ordinance, not a no smoke ordinance. It's the fire not
>> in a fireproof container that's the issue, not the smoke.
>
> A ring of firebrick laying on the ground is by definition a fireproof container.
> That's what firebrick is made for. So would a sheet of steel qualify.

> I would get a copy of the actual ordinance and see what it *really* requires.

And that is more effort than I want to go through for this project.
This is supposed to be recreation.

On 7/31/2010 9:28 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
> "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>>
>> No. 21 wide by 17 deep. There's also the question of whether it gets
>> hot enough for good take-up. The tire doesn't just have to fit, it
>> has to be a little undersized when cold so that it loads the wooden
>> parts in compression--that's where the strength of the wheel comes
>> from. 500F will give about a quarter inch of expansion with low
>> carbon steel, red heat will give close to a half inch. The various
>> 1800s and early 1900s blacksmithing journals suggest that the iron in
>> use at the time would expand more than this.
>>
>> By the way, the large pizza from the big chains is 14-15 inch, the
>> independents may go 18.
>>
>
> You've got 27" to work with if you put it in diagonally.

How do you figure? If I tilt it up front to back then I've only got the
21 width. If I tilt it side to side then I've only got the 17 depth.

> There's a third
> dimension to be concerned about, but it's faster to try it than to work
> on all the calculations.
>
> It doesn't matter if your oven tops out before the wheel has expanded
> enough, though. (But you knew this.)
>
> Puckdropper

On 7/31/2010 9:58 PM, CW wrote:
> "Joseph Gwinn"<[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> The diameter (2') is only one of the three needed numbers. What is
>> thickness
>> and width?
>>
>> Joe Gwinn
>
>
>
> In the time it has taken to discuss this, I would have dug a shallow hole,
> filled it with charcoal and done it. This is a classic case of
> overcomplicating things.

Not an option. If it was I would already have done it.

On 7/31/2010 9:01 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
> Six guys with six torches? When I was more actively doing HVAC. The
> boss and I would chit chat while we used two torches and two rolls of
> solder to assemble 1 1/4 copper pipe for boiler heat systems.

Looking at this further, I may need a bigger tank than I'd want to
handle to get this whole thing to red heat with oxyacetylene. Mongo
weed burner is looking like the right tool.

On 8/1/2010 5:07 AM, CW wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Sat, 31 Jul 2010 21:39:49 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour
>> <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Jul 31, 10:24 pm, "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> On 7/31/2010 9:58 PM, CW wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In the time it has taken to discuss this, I would have dug a shallow
>>>>> hole,
>>>>> filled it with charcoal and done it. This is a classic case of
>>>>> overcomplicating things.
>>>>
>>>> Not an option. If it was I would already have done it.
>>>
>>> I don't understand something about this no-fire regulation. Where
>>> exactly is it that you can't have a BBQ? Seems outlandish.
>>
>> A *lot* of places have no *open* fire regulations, at least part of the
>> time.
>> There are "Red Flag" warnings issued here on dry days (quite often in the
>> Winter). Some areas require a "burn permit" for an open fire.
>
> That "burn permit" is the city wanting to make money under the guise of
> "environmentalism". It's about time some of these idiots started
> "disappearing".

You can have a barbecue here but it has to be in either the portable
kind on wheels or if you're going to use a pile of bricks then you need
to pull a permit and get the inspector to approve it, and he's not gonna
unless the bricks are mortared together.

CW wrote:
...

> That "burn permit" is the city wanting to make money under the guise of
> "environmentalism". It's about time some of these idiots started
> "disappearing".

Not at all in areas that have or are susceptible to red flag warnings --
it's common-sense protection to minimize chances for wildfires that
easily can get out of hand.

The "permit" is no-cost; the requirement means there's some control over
where/what/when and an awareness of who/where/when so have handle on
responders and sufficient to handle just in case.

The difference to the miscreant is if have gotten the permit and
something happens as long as you abided by conditions and it was an
inadvertent incident such as a sudden gust of wind you're off the hook.
If, otoh, you ignore and go ahead any way, you can be liable for
responder costs and penalties.

--

CW wrote:

> In the time it has taken to discuss this, I would have dug a shallow hole,
> filled it with charcoal and done it. This is a classic case of
> overcomplicating things.

But then I wouldn't have known the history of the wheelwright, would not
have watched LOX light a charcoal grill, would not have seen what
happens when a bowl of Liquid Nitrogen is dumped in a swimming pool
(spin off of the LOX) would not have known HF sells a propane weed
burner for $12.

On the other hand, if it were me, I would have likely screwed up a wheel
or two before asking, and another after asking before realizing there is
more toit than meets the eye...

--
Jack
Conservatives believe every day is the Fourth of July, Liberals believe
every day is April 15.
http://jbstein.com

J. Clarke wrote:
> On 7/31/2010 6:00 PM, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
>> In article<[email protected]>, "J.
>> Clarke"<[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 7/31/2010 4:09 PM, Artemus wrote:
>>>> "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> Working on a decorative wagon wheel in wood, but I'd really like to
>>>>> put
>>>>> a metal tire on it. Now, that's no trick if it's just for
>>>>> looks--make a
>>>>> steel ring that's close enough to the dimension that a little epoxy
>>>>> under it will hold it, but the devil in me wants to do a proper job
>>>>> and
>>>>> shrink the thing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Trouble is that this is a no-burn area so I can't just light a fire in
>>>>> the back yard and heat the tire.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, any ideas on how to go about this? The wheel is 2 feet in
>>>>> diameter,
>>>>> making the tire too big to fit in a barbecue or the like. If I was
>>>>> making a bunch of 'em I'd be tempted to just build a charcoal pit big
>>>>> enough and call it a barbie, but that's a lot of work for one wheel.
>>>>>
>>>>> And yeah, I know I can find a blacksmith, but I'm more interested
>>>>> in the
>>>>> making than in having a wheel.
>>>>

You should talk to one of the local Amish smiths. In this area they are
using a neat wheel. They look like the standard wood/steel construction.
BUT they actually have a wood center/spokes/rim, Then they have a layer
of rubber glued to that and a steel ring around all of it. The rubber
gives a better ride and seems to lower the wear on the steel as well.

--
Steve W.

On 8/1/2010 2:09 PM, Steve W. wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
>> On 7/31/2010 6:00 PM, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
>>> In article<[email protected]>, "J.
>>> Clarke"<[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 7/31/2010 4:09 PM, Artemus wrote:
>>>>> "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>> Working on a decorative wagon wheel in wood, but I'd really like to
>>>>>> put
>>>>>> a metal tire on it. Now, that's no trick if it's just for
>>>>>> looks--make a
>>>>>> steel ring that's close enough to the dimension that a little epoxy
>>>>>> under it will hold it, but the devil in me wants to do a proper job
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> shrink the thing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Trouble is that this is a no-burn area so I can't just light a fire in
>>>>>> the back yard and heat the tire.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, any ideas on how to go about this? The wheel is 2 feet in
>>>>>> diameter,
>>>>>> making the tire too big to fit in a barbecue or the like. If I was
>>>>>> making a bunch of 'em I'd be tempted to just build a charcoal pit big
>>>>>> enough and call it a barbie, but that's a lot of work for one wheel.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And yeah, I know I can find a blacksmith, but I'm more interested
>>>>>> in the
>>>>>> making than in having a wheel.
>>>>>
>
> You should talk to one of the local Amish smiths.

The nearest Amish smith to here is about 250 miles away and I have to
drive through NYC to get there.

> In this area they are
> using a neat wheel. They look like the standard wood/steel construction.
> BUT they actually have a wood center/spokes/rim, Then they have a layer
> of rubber glued to that and a steel ring around all of it. The rubber
> gives a better ride and seems to lower the wear on the steel as well.

The layer of rubber is a thought.

"Stuart" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article
> <[email protected]>,
> rangerssuck <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > That "burn permit" is the city wanting to make money under the guise of
>> > "environmentalism". It's about time some of these idiots started
>> > "disappearing".
>
>> No, it's a way of preventing yahoos from starting wild fires.
>
> Does it work?
>


Apparently not.

On 8/1/2010 10:30 PM, HeyBub wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>> It's a no burn ordinance, not a no smoke ordinance. It's the fire not
>> in a fireproof container that's the issue, not the smoke.
>>
>
> So put the wheel, tire, a bag of charcoal, some matches, a few tools, and
> firebrick in your car and drive down the road to somewhere that's not so
> anal.
>
> How hard could that be?

That would likely be in another state.

In article <[email protected]>,
Robert Bonomi <[email protected]> wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Jack Stein <[email protected]> wrote:
>>CW wrote:
>>
>>> In the time it has taken to discuss this, I would have dug a shallow hole,
>>> filled it with charcoal and done it. This is a classic case of
>>> overcomplicating things.
>>
>>But then I wouldn't have known the history of the wheelwright, would not
>>have watched LOX light a charcoal grill, would not have seen what
>>happens when a bowl of Liquid Nitrogen is dumped in a swimming pool
>>(spin off of the LOX) would not have known HF sells a propane weed
>>burner for $12.
>>
>>On the other hand, if it were me, I would have likely screwed up a wheel
>>or two before asking, and another after asking before realizing there is
>>more toit than meets the eye...
>
>of course there is, this is the *very* special case of a _round_ toit.

Hey, by the way, HF sells a decorative wagon wheel, too! Problem solved!

--
Better to be stuck up in a tree than tied to one.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar.org

Steve B wrote:

>> Jack Stein wrote:
>>> But then I wouldn't have known the history of the wheelwright, would not
>>> have watched LOX light a charcoal grill, would not have seen what
>>> happens when a bowl of Liquid Nitrogen is dumped in a swimming pool
>>> (spin off of the LOX) would not have known HF sells a propane weed
>>> burner for $12.
>
> I've seen Barbecuing with Liquid Oxygen. Where's the liquid nitrogen one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2mj-Sq2oeo&NR=1

--
Jack
Got Change: Now CHANGE IT BACK!
http://jbstein.com

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>> Now, arranging to "borrow' a pizza place's oven, *that's* a whole
>> nuther level of complexity. <grin>
>>
>> Similarly, it'd take a *really* big ceramics kiln to fit that tire
>> in.

nah, that's a pretty average one. mine will take a 21" round with about 1/2"
to spare on the sides.

you might call around to some ceramic or glass artists, a ceramic supply
store, or one of those paint on ceramics mall places, to 'borrow' some heat
for a while. the charge for a firing would be only a few dollars.

regards,
charlie
http://www.glassartists.org/ChaniArts

On 8/4/2010 4:44 PM, ATP wrote:
> "Michael A. Terrell"<[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> ATP wrote:
>>>
>>> "Steve W."<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>> You should talk to one of the local Amish smiths. In this area they are
>>>> using a neat wheel. They look like the standard wood/steel
>>>> construction.
>>>> BUT they actually have a wood center/spokes/rim, Then they have a layer
>>>> of rubber glued to that and a steel ring around all of it. The rubber
>>>> gives a better ride and seems to lower the wear on the steel as well.
>>>
>>> Sounds a bit fancy and prideful to me...
>>
>>
>> Why? It sounds like less labor, for a longer useful life.
>
> I'm kidding, but the Amish have an unusual take on things. I guess rubber
> under the steel is OK, but rubber tires would be unholy. But whatever
> they're doing seems to be working for them. I wonder if they're still busy
> making those stoves...

It's not that rubber tires are "unholy"--their rule is no powered
vehicles that can be driven on the highway and no rubber tires is a way
to enforce it.

Much of the Amish attitude toward technology is pragmatic--it's not that
it's "unholy", it's that they want to maintain a particular social
structure of their community and they're perfectly happy to go with
technologies that don't upset that social structure but they after due
consideration forbid those that do upset it.
>
>

RicodJour wrote:
> On Aug 4, 7:11 pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 8/4/2010 4:44 PM, ATP wrote:
>>
>>> I'm kidding, but the Amish have an unusual take on things. I guess rubber
>>> under the steel is OK, but rubber tires would be unholy. But whatever
>>> they're doing seems to be working for them. I wonder if they're still busy
>>> making those stoves...
>> It's not that rubber tires are "unholy"--their rule is no powered
>> vehicles that can be driven on the highway and no rubber tires is a way
>> to enforce it.
>
> I'm not sure I follow - I've seen Amish wagons on the road, both with
> rubber wheels and without. What does that have to do with it being
> powered? None of the Amish wagons are powered.

If you saw a buggy with rubber wheels it was NOT Amish. More likely
Mennonite.

Basically there are different orders of plain folks.
Old order Amish - These are the ones who shun pretty much all modern
technology, no powered machinery on the farm and maybe a phone stuck on
a pole out in the middle of a field for all the "local" Amish to use.

New order Amish - These allow some modern technology like generators and
solar power as well as some powered machinery on the farm with maybe a
steel wheeled tractor or crawler allowed. They allow a phone in the barn
or greenhouse and some even have a drivers license even though they are
not supposed to drive cars.

Mennonite - The closest to what we take for normal people. They allow
tractors and rubber tires on the buggies, some even have cars. They do
some stuff the old ways but also have cell phones and electricity in
some places.


>
>> Much of the Amish attitude toward technology is pragmatic--it's not that
>> it's "unholy", it's that they want to maintain a particular social
>> structure of their community and they're perfectly happy to go with
>> technologies that don't upset that social structure but they after due
>> consideration forbid those that do upset it.
>
> Different sects of the Amish have different takes on the rubber. Some
> allow it, some don't. Least that's what I've read. And it's owning
> things that creates the problem. The Amish can take public
> transportation and they'll hire buses when necessary.

Yep, and they also hire out locals to take good to market sales and
such. One of the locals has me drive him or his wife around quite a bit
to different farmers markets. VERY nice folks. The neighbors are
currently selling out their farm and I'm hoping that some friends of the
Amish I know buy it.

--
Steve W.

"Steve W." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> RicodJour wrote:
>> On Aug 4, 7:11 pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> On 8/4/2010 4:44 PM, ATP wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm kidding, but the Amish have an unusual take on things. I guess
>>>> rubber
>>>> under the steel is OK, but rubber tires would be unholy. But whatever
>>>> they're doing seems to be working for them. I wonder if they're still
>>>> busy
>>>> making those stoves...
>>> It's not that rubber tires are "unholy"--their rule is no powered
>>> vehicles that can be driven on the highway and no rubber tires is a way
>>> to enforce it.
>>
>> I'm not sure I follow - I've seen Amish wagons on the road, both with
>> rubber wheels and without. What does that have to do with it being
>> powered? None of the Amish wagons are powered.
>
> If you saw a buggy with rubber wheels it was NOT Amish. More likely
> Mennonite.
>
> Basically there are different orders of plain folks.
> Old order Amish - These are the ones who shun pretty much all modern
> technology, no powered machinery on the farm and maybe a phone stuck on
> a pole out in the middle of a field for all the "local" Amish to use.
>
> New order Amish - These allow some modern technology like generators and
> solar power as well as some powered machinery on the farm with maybe a
> steel wheeled tractor or crawler allowed. They allow a phone in the barn
> or greenhouse and some even have a drivers license even though they are
> not supposed to drive cars.
>
> Mennonite - The closest to what we take for normal people. They allow
> tractors and rubber tires on the buggies, some even have cars. They do
> some stuff the old ways but also have cell phones and electricity in
> some places.


Best auto mechanic I ever knew was Mennonite!

On 8/4/2010 11:08 PM, Steve W. wrote:
> RicodJour wrote:
>> On Aug 4, 7:11 pm, "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote:
>>> On 8/4/2010 4:44 PM, ATP wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm kidding, but the Amish have an unusual take on things. I guess rubber
>>>> under the steel is OK, but rubber tires would be unholy. But whatever
>>>> they're doing seems to be working for them. I wonder if they're still busy
>>>> making those stoves...
>>> It's not that rubber tires are "unholy"--their rule is no powered
>>> vehicles that can be driven on the highway and no rubber tires is a way
>>> to enforce it.
>>
>> I'm not sure I follow - I've seen Amish wagons on the road, both with
>> rubber wheels and without. What does that have to do with it being
>> powered? None of the Amish wagons are powered.
>
> If you saw a buggy with rubber wheels it was NOT Amish. More likely
> Mennonite.
>
> Basically there are different orders of plain folks.
> Old order Amish - These are the ones who shun pretty much all modern
> technology, no powered machinery on the farm and maybe a phone stuck on
> a pole out in the middle of a field for all the "local" Amish to use.
>
> New order Amish - These allow some modern technology like generators and
> solar power as well as some powered machinery on the farm with maybe a
> steel wheeled tractor or crawler allowed. They allow a phone in the barn
> or greenhouse and some even have a drivers license even though they are
> not supposed to drive cars.
>
> Mennonite - The closest to what we take for normal people. They allow
> tractors and rubber tires on the buggies, some even have cars. They do
> some stuff the old ways but also have cell phones and electricity in
> some places.

I understand that a surprising number of Amish have cell phones. The
way I saw it explained by one who has one is that he went to the Bishop
or the elders or whatever they have (I forget the details) with this new
thing and asked if he could try it. He was told that he could, with the
understanding that he might have to give it up later if if was decided
that such things were not acceptable.

As to what makes a cell phone different from a wired phone, I suspect
the wires have a good deal to do with it.

>>> Much of the Amish attitude toward technology is pragmatic--it's not that
>>> it's "unholy", it's that they want to maintain a particular social
>>> structure of their community and they're perfectly happy to go with
>>> technologies that don't upset that social structure but they after due
>>> consideration forbid those that do upset it.
>>
>> Different sects of the Amish have different takes on the rubber. Some
>> allow it, some don't. Least that's what I've read. And it's owning
>> things that creates the problem. The Amish can take public
>> transportation and they'll hire buses when necessary.
>
> Yep, and they also hire out locals to take good to market sales and
> such. One of the locals has me drive him or his wife around quite a bit
> to different farmers markets. VERY nice folks. The neighbors are
> currently selling out their farm and I'm hoping that some friends of the
> Amish I know buy it.
>

On 8/5/2010 7:58 AM, Markem wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Aug 2010 19:35:44 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Aug 4, 7:11 pm, "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote:
>>> On 8/4/2010 4:44 PM, ATP wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm kidding, but the Amish have an unusual take on things. I guess rubber
>>>> under the steel is OK, but rubber tires would be unholy. But whatever
>>>> they're doing seems to be working for them. I wonder if they're still busy
>>>> making those stoves...
>>>
>>> It's not that rubber tires are "unholy"--their rule is no powered
>>> vehicles that can be driven on the highway and no rubber tires is a way
>>> to enforce it.
>>
>> I'm not sure I follow - I've seen Amish wagons on the road, both with
>> rubber wheels and without. What does that have to do with it being
>> powered? None of the Amish wagons are powered.
>>
>>> Much of the Amish attitude toward technology is pragmatic--it's not that
>>> it's "unholy", it's that they want to maintain a particular social
>>> structure of their community and they're perfectly happy to go with
>>> technologies that don't upset that social structure but they after due
>>> consideration forbid those that do upset it.
>>
>> Different sects of the Amish have different takes on the rubber. Some
>> allow it, some don't. Least that's what I've read. And it's owning
>> things that creates the problem. The Amish can take public
>> transportation and they'll hire buses when necessary.
>
> There are some Amish here in Southern Illinois that drive pickup
> trucks, John Deere tractors and such.

Are you sure those aren't Mennonites?

John Deere tractors could be New Order Amish, but pickup trucks don't
seem very likely unless there was some truly extraordinary situation.

In article <[email protected]>, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 8/5/2010 7:58 AM, Markem wrote:
>> On Wed, 4 Aug 2010 19:35:44 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On Aug 4, 7:11 pm, "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> On 8/4/2010 4:44 PM, ATP wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I'm kidding, but the Amish have an unusual take on things. I guess rubber
>>>>> under the steel is OK, but rubber tires would be unholy. But whatever
>>>>> they're doing seems to be working for them. I wonder if they're still busy
>>>>> making those stoves...
>>>>
>>>> It's not that rubber tires are "unholy"--their rule is no powered
>>>> vehicles that can be driven on the highway and no rubber tires is a way
>>>> to enforce it.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure I follow - I've seen Amish wagons on the road, both with
>>> rubber wheels and without. What does that have to do with it being
>>> powered? None of the Amish wagons are powered.
>>>
>>>> Much of the Amish attitude toward technology is pragmatic--it's not that
>>>> it's "unholy", it's that they want to maintain a particular social
>>>> structure of their community and they're perfectly happy to go with
>>>> technologies that don't upset that social structure but they after due
>>>> consideration forbid those that do upset it.
>>>
>>> Different sects of the Amish have different takes on the rubber. Some
>>> allow it, some don't. Least that's what I've read. And it's owning
>>> things that creates the problem. The Amish can take public
>>> transportation and they'll hire buses when necessary.
>>
>> There are some Amish here in Southern Illinois that drive pickup
>> trucks, John Deere tractors and such.
>
>Are you sure those aren't Mennonites?

Or German Baptists (aka "Dunkers"). Their dress is almost identical to the
Amish, the men have the same beards, and they typically work in the same
occupations (chiefly farming, cabinetmaking, and teaching). Their theology is
very similar to the Amish, except that they're more accepting of modern
technology. They use electricity, telephones, cars, and tractors. They don't
watch television or listen to the radio, and usually remove the stereos from
their cars. (We used to live in a rural area of central Indiana, and had
several German Baptist neighbors. They're fine people, kind, hard working,
generous, and absolutely honest.)

In article <[email protected]>, RicodJour <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Aug 5, 9:22=A0am, [email protected] (Doug Miller) wrote:
>>
>> Or German Baptists (aka "Dunkers"). Their dress is almost identical to the
>> Amish, the men have the same beards, and they typically work in the same
>> occupations (chiefly farming, cabinetmaking, and teaching). Their theology is
>> very similar to the Amish, except that they're more accepting of modern
>> technology. They use electricity, telephones, cars, and tractors. They don't
>> watch television or listen to the radio, and usually remove the stereos from
>> their cars.
>
>Hmmm, I think there must be some Dunkers living in the South Bronx.
>Lots of stereos missing there.

I meant from _their own_ cars. ;-)

On Wed, 4 Aug 2010 19:35:44 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Aug 4, 7:11 pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 8/4/2010 4:44 PM, ATP wrote:
>>
>> > I'm kidding, but the Amish have an unusual take on things. I guess rubber
>> > under the steel is OK, but rubber tires would be unholy. But whatever
>> > they're doing seems to be working for them. I wonder if they're still busy
>> > making those stoves...
>>
>> It's not that rubber tires are "unholy"--their rule is no powered
>> vehicles that can be driven on the highway and no rubber tires is a way
>> to enforce it.
>
>I'm not sure I follow - I've seen Amish wagons on the road, both with
>rubber wheels and without. What does that have to do with it being
>powered? None of the Amish wagons are powered.
>
>> Much of the Amish attitude toward technology is pragmatic--it's not that
>> it's "unholy", it's that they want to maintain a particular social
>> structure of their community and they're perfectly happy to go with
>> technologies that don't upset that social structure but they after due
>> consideration forbid those that do upset it.
>
>Different sects of the Amish have different takes on the rubber. Some
>allow it, some don't. Least that's what I've read. And it's owning
>things that creates the problem. The Amish can take public
>transportation and they'll hire buses when necessary.

There are some Amish here in Southern Illinois that drive pickup
trucks, John Deere tractors and such.

Mark

In article <[email protected]>, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]>
wrote:

> On 7/31/2010 1:32 PM, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
> > In article<[email protected]>, "J.
> > Clarke"<[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On 7/31/2010 12:21 PM, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
> >>> In article<[email protected]>,
> >>> Tim Wescott<[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 07/31/2010 08:26 AM, RicodJour wrote:
> >>>>> On Jul 31, 10:24 am, "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>>>> On 7/31/2010 9:44 AM, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> In article<[email protected]>,
> >>>>>>> "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Working on a decorative wagon wheel in wood, but I'd really like to
> >>>>>>>> put
> >>>>>>>> a metal tire on it. Now, that's no trick if it's just for
> >>>>>>>> looks--make
> >>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>> steel ring that's close enough to the dimension that a little epoxy
> >>>>>>>> under it will hold it, but the devil in me wants to do a proper job
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>> shrink the thing.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Trouble is that this is a no-burn area so I can't just light a fire
> >>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>> the back yard and heat the tire.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> So, any ideas on how to go about this? The wheel is 2 feet in
> >>>>>>>> diameter,
> >>>>>>>> making the tire too big to fit in a barbecue or the like. If I was
> >>>>>>>> making a bunch of 'em I'd be tempted to just build a charcoal pit
> >>>>>>>> big
> >>>>>>>> enough and call it a barbie, but that's a lot of work for one wheel.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> And yeah, I know I can find a blacksmith, but I'm more interested in
> >>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>> making than in having a wheel.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> A charcoal fire will do the trick, and most jurisdictions allow
> >>>>>>> grills.
> >>>>>>> It's
> >>>>>>> the smoke they object to.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> How big is the tire?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> <sigh> Count up four paragraphs.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I counted up four paragraphs and it said some thing about finding a
> >>>>> blacksmith, but nothing about the size of the wheel.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> How big is the wheel? {ducking}
> >>>>
> >>>> "The wheel is 2 feet in diameter, making the tire too big to fit in a
> >>>> barbecue or the like."
> >>>
> >>> The diameter (2') is only one of the three needed numbers. What is
> >>> thickness
> >>> and width?
> >>
> >> An inch wide, 3/16 thick.
> >
> > Ahh. That's reasonably substantial. Thinner would be harder to keep hot
> > using a torch. I bet a propane weedburner would do the job, especially if the
> > heat were confined with some firebricks.
>
> That's another good idea, appeals to the small boy in me, and is cheaper
> than an oxyacetylene rig.

Also, the heat content of acetylene is far less than that of propane, so propane
is better for bulk heating. I learned this from a book on brazing and silver
soldering. The author is a UK model builder, and he makes silver-soldered brass
boilers for model steam engines.


> So should I go for the 500,000 BTU Red
> Dragon, the 100,000, whatever Home Despot has, or the 12.99 Harbor
> Freight jobbie?

I have a Home Despot weedburner, and while it does work, it is awkward to use
because it lacks a built-in lighter, so you cannot turn it on and off so easily.
An ordinary spark lighter didn't work, and I ended up using a small propane
torch as a lighter. Clumsy. So, I would recommend getting a unit with built in
lighter. I'll probably buy one someday.

I have no experience with the HF unit.

I would think that 100,000 BTU/hr is enough, but you will need the firebricks to
make a simple muffle to contain and focus the heat.

If you can manage the charcoal ring fire, that may be easier. Use the
weedburner to light the charcoal. Firebricks are still useful. Or half-bricks.


For doing hot work on my wooden workbench, I went down to a local brickyard and
bought $35 worth of ordinary firebricks and half-bricks. (Have the shape and
density of an ordinary red brick, but are yellow; used to line fireplaces.)
When I need to do some hot work, I make a cleverly arranged pile of bricks on
the bench and get to work. With a muffle, I can easily get small objects up to
a bright orange heat. After it all cools, the bricks go back to their storage
pile. The only scorch marks on the bench are where I didn't pile enough bricks
in place, and some flame spilled over the edge and impinged on the wood. The
backside of a full brick does not get hot enough to be a problem.


> Wish I'd thought about using one of those when I was trying to get my
> muffler off a while back, but I'd have probably just set the Jeep on fire.

Unh. Too much of a good thing.

For a muffler, I would guess that an air-acetylene turbotorch would work. Or
air-propane turbotorch. But I've never had to use a torch on a muffler. It was
cheaper in time to simply cut the entire old exhaust system off right up to the
cast iron manifold using a cold chisel, and replace all that rusty tin. At
least on the Volvos of the day, with care you could perhaps save the long pipe
(which ran the hottest and so corroded the least), but it was not worth the
trouble.

Joe Gwinn

In article <[email protected]>,
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Working on a decorative wagon wheel in wood, but I'd really like to put
> a metal tire on it. Now, that's no trick if it's just for looks--make a
> steel ring that's close enough to the dimension that a little epoxy
> under it will hold it, but the devil in me wants to do a proper job and
> shrink the thing.
>
> Trouble is that this is a no-burn area so I can't just light a fire in
> the back yard and heat the tire.
>
> So, any ideas on how to go about this? The wheel is 2 feet in diameter,
> making the tire too big to fit in a barbecue or the like. If I was
> making a bunch of 'em I'd be tempted to just build a charcoal pit big
> enough and call it a barbie, but that's a lot of work for one wheel.
>
> And yeah, I know I can find a blacksmith, but I'm more interested in the
> making than in having a wheel.

A charcoal fire will do the trick, and most jurisdictions allow grills. It's
the smoke they object to.

How big is the tire?

Joe Gwinn

In article <[email protected]>,
Tim Wescott <[email protected]> wrote:

> On 07/31/2010 08:26 AM, RicodJour wrote:
> > On Jul 31, 10:24 am, "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote:
> >> On 7/31/2010 9:44 AM, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> In article<[email protected]>,
> >>> "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >>>> Working on a decorative wagon wheel in wood, but I'd really like to put
> >>>> a metal tire on it. Now, that's no trick if it's just for looks--make a
> >>>> steel ring that's close enough to the dimension that a little epoxy
> >>>> under it will hold it, but the devil in me wants to do a proper job and
> >>>> shrink the thing.
> >>
> >>>> Trouble is that this is a no-burn area so I can't just light a fire in
> >>>> the back yard and heat the tire.
> >>
> >>>> So, any ideas on how to go about this? The wheel is 2 feet in diameter,
> >>>> making the tire too big to fit in a barbecue or the like. If I was
> >>>> making a bunch of 'em I'd be tempted to just build a charcoal pit big
> >>>> enough and call it a barbie, but that's a lot of work for one wheel.
> >>
> >>>> And yeah, I know I can find a blacksmith, but I'm more interested in the
> >>>> making than in having a wheel.
> >>
> >>> A charcoal fire will do the trick, and most jurisdictions allow grills.
> >>> It's
> >>> the smoke they object to.
> >>
> >>> How big is the tire?
> >>
> >> <sigh> Count up four paragraphs.
> >
> > I counted up four paragraphs and it said some thing about finding a
> > blacksmith, but nothing about the size of the wheel.
> >
> > How big is the wheel? {ducking}
>
> "The wheel is 2 feet in diameter, making the tire too big to fit in a
> barbecue or the like."

The diameter (2') is only one of the three needed numbers. What is thickness
and width?

Joe Gwinn

In article <[email protected]>, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]>
wrote:

> On 7/31/2010 12:21 PM, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
> > In article<[email protected]>,
> > Tim Wescott<[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> On 07/31/2010 08:26 AM, RicodJour wrote:
> >>> On Jul 31, 10:24 am, "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>> On 7/31/2010 9:44 AM, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> In article<[email protected]>,
> >>>>> "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>> Working on a decorative wagon wheel in wood, but I'd really like to
> >>>>>> put
> >>>>>> a metal tire on it. Now, that's no trick if it's just for looks--make
> >>>>>> a
> >>>>>> steel ring that's close enough to the dimension that a little epoxy
> >>>>>> under it will hold it, but the devil in me wants to do a proper job
> >>>>>> and
> >>>>>> shrink the thing.
> >>>>
> >>>>>> Trouble is that this is a no-burn area so I can't just light a fire in
> >>>>>> the back yard and heat the tire.
> >>>>
> >>>>>> So, any ideas on how to go about this? The wheel is 2 feet in
> >>>>>> diameter,
> >>>>>> making the tire too big to fit in a barbecue or the like. If I was
> >>>>>> making a bunch of 'em I'd be tempted to just build a charcoal pit big
> >>>>>> enough and call it a barbie, but that's a lot of work for one wheel.
> >>>>
> >>>>>> And yeah, I know I can find a blacksmith, but I'm more interested in
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> making than in having a wheel.
> >>>>
> >>>>> A charcoal fire will do the trick, and most jurisdictions allow grills.
> >>>>> It's
> >>>>> the smoke they object to.
> >>>>
> >>>>> How big is the tire?
> >>>>
> >>>> <sigh> Count up four paragraphs.
> >>>
> >>> I counted up four paragraphs and it said some thing about finding a
> >>> blacksmith, but nothing about the size of the wheel.
> >>>
> >>> How big is the wheel? {ducking}
> >>
> >> "The wheel is 2 feet in diameter, making the tire too big to fit in a
> >> barbecue or the like."
> >
> > The diameter (2') is only one of the three needed numbers. What is
> > thickness
> > and width?
>
> An inch wide, 3/16 thick.

Ahh. That's reasonably substantial. Thinner would be herder to keep hot using
a torch. I bet a propane weedburner would do the job, especially if the heat
were confined with some firebricks.

Joe Gwinn

In article <[email protected]>, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]>
wrote:

> On 7/31/2010 4:09 PM, Artemus wrote:
> > "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >> Working on a decorative wagon wheel in wood, but I'd really like to put
> >> a metal tire on it. Now, that's no trick if it's just for looks--make a
> >> steel ring that's close enough to the dimension that a little epoxy
> >> under it will hold it, but the devil in me wants to do a proper job and
> >> shrink the thing.
> >>
> >> Trouble is that this is a no-burn area so I can't just light a fire in
> >> the back yard and heat the tire.
> >>
> >> So, any ideas on how to go about this? The wheel is 2 feet in diameter,
> >> making the tire too big to fit in a barbecue or the like. If I was
> >> making a bunch of 'em I'd be tempted to just build a charcoal pit big
> >> enough and call it a barbie, but that's a lot of work for one wheel.
> >>
> >> And yeah, I know I can find a blacksmith, but I'm more interested in the
> >> making than in having a wheel.
> >
> > There's no need to dig a pit. Just set the rim on the ground and raise it
> > up about an inch or two with rocks or anything that won't burn. Cover
> > the entire rim with charcoal and light it. There's no need for charcoal in
> > the center of the circle. It shouldn't burn with any more smoke than a
> > bbq.
>
> It's a no burn ordinance, not a no smoke ordinance. It's the fire not
> in a fireproof container that's the issue, not the smoke.

A ring of firebrick laying on the ground is by definition a fireproof container.
That's what firebrick is made for. So would a sheet of steel qualify.

I would get a copy of the actual ordinance and see what it *really* requires.

Joe Gwinn

On Sat, 31 Jul 2010 09:14:13 -0700, Tim Wescott <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 07/31/2010 08:26 AM, RicodJour wrote:
>> On Jul 31, 10:24 am, "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote:
>>> On 7/31/2010 9:44 AM, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> In article<[email protected]>,
>>>> "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Working on a decorative wagon wheel in wood, but I'd really like to put
>>>>> a metal tire on it. Now, that's no trick if it's just for looks--make a
>>>>> steel ring that's close enough to the dimension that a little epoxy
>>>>> under it will hold it, but the devil in me wants to do a proper job and
>>>>> shrink the thing.
>>>
>>>>> Trouble is that this is a no-burn area so I can't just light a fire in
>>>>> the back yard and heat the tire.
>>>
>>>>> So, any ideas on how to go about this? The wheel is 2 feet in diameter,
>>>>> making the tire too big to fit in a barbecue or the like. If I was
>>>>> making a bunch of 'em I'd be tempted to just build a charcoal pit big
>>>>> enough and call it a barbie, but that's a lot of work for one wheel.
>>>
>>>>> And yeah, I know I can find a blacksmith, but I'm more interested in the
>>>>> making than in having a wheel.
>>>
>>>> A charcoal fire will do the trick, and most jurisdictions allow grills. It's
>>>> the smoke they object to.
>>>
>>>> How big is the tire?
>>>
>>> <sigh> Count up four paragraphs.
>>
>> I counted up four paragraphs and it said some thing about finding a
>> blacksmith, but nothing about the size of the wheel.
>>
>> How big is the wheel? {ducking}
>
>"The wheel is 2 feet in diameter, making the tire too big to fit in a
>barbecue or the like."

How about one of these.

http://www.harborfreight.com/lawn-garden/heaters/propane-torch-91033.html

Mark

J. Clarke wrote:
> On 7/31/2010 1:10 PM, Lee Michaels wrote:
>> "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Working on a decorative wagon wheel in wood, but I'd really like to
>>> put a
>>> metal tire on it. Now, that's no trick if it's just for looks--make a
>>> steel ring that's close enough to the dimension that a little epoxy
>>> under
>>> it will hold it, but the devil in me wants to do a proper job and shrink
>>> the thing.
>>>
>>> Trouble is that this is a no-burn area so I can't just light a fire
>>> in the
>>> back yard and heat the tire.
>>>
>>> So, any ideas on how to go about this? The wheel is 2 feet in diameter,
>>> making the tire too big to fit in a barbecue or the like. If I was
>>> making
>>> a bunch of 'em I'd be tempted to just build a charcoal pit big enough
>>> and
>>> call it a barbie, but that's a lot of work for one wheel.
>>>
>>> And yeah, I know I can find a blacksmith, but I'm more interested in the
>>> making than in having a wheel.
>>
>> Well, you could get a big tank of propane and/or other gas and just
>> heat up
>> the whole thing. I would think tha it would take a fair amount of gas and
>> time.
>>
>> As for a charcol pit, that would probsbly work. How about just making a
>> circular pit? Dig a hole in the ground a bit bigger than the wheel, but
>> leave the middle intact. So you are just heating the steel itself and
>> not a
>> big unrelated area.
>>
>> This seems like a whole lot of work and bother for a little authenticity.
>> Is it really worth all this trouble?
>
> It's about the journey, not the destination. I'd like to do it just so
> I know I can.
Id go down the propane route.as follows by making a vertical furnace.
Get your weed killer big as you can afford.
use bricks to make 2 walls 2in apart by 2ft long by 2 ft tall. blockoff
one end and the top all bar say a 2in part.
put your iron wheel inside between the 2 walls.
In the opposite bottom corner leave a 2in gap. Light your propane burner
apply flame to bottom hole. Heat steadily for probably 30 mins till the
whole of the inside is red hot inc the iron wheel.
Have your wooden wheel supported flat on some bricks and your tongs at
the ready. Take out the redhot iron place on the wheel and hammer down.
Pour lots of cold water on it ant it will shrink up well.all youll get
is lot of steam.
hope this helps.
Ted
Dorset in UK.

In article <[email protected]>,
J. Clarke <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 7/31/2010 4:09 PM, Artemus wrote:
>> "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Working on a decorative wagon wheel in wood, but I'd really like to put
>>> a metal tire on it. Now, that's no trick if it's just for looks--make a
>>> steel ring that's close enough to the dimension that a little epoxy
>>> under it will hold it, but the devil in me wants to do a proper job and
>>> shrink the thing.
>>>
>>> Trouble is that this is a no-burn area so I can't just light a fire in
>>> the back yard and heat the tire.
>>>
>>> So, any ideas on how to go about this? The wheel is 2 feet in diameter,
>>> making the tire too big to fit in a barbecue or the like. If I was
>>> making a bunch of 'em I'd be tempted to just build a charcoal pit big
>>> enough and call it a barbie, but that's a lot of work for one wheel.
>>>
>>> And yeah, I know I can find a blacksmith, but I'm more interested in the
>>> making than in having a wheel.
>>
>> There's no need to dig a pit. Just set the rim on the ground and raise it
>> up about an inch or two with rocks or anything that won't burn. Cover
>> the entire rim with charcoal and light it. There's no need for charcoal in
>> the center of the circle. It shouldn't burn with any more smoke than a
>> bbq.
>
>It's a no burn ordinance, not a no smoke ordinance. It's the fire not
>in a fireproof container that's the issue, not the smoke.

AH! if -that's- all. get some roofing 'gutter'. the galvanized variety.
tack pieces together to approximate a circle of the right diameter.

Add tire, charcoal, and torch it.

In article <[email protected]>,
J. Clarke <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 7/31/2010 10:13 AM, Larry W wrote:
>> In article<[email protected]>,
>> J. Clarke<[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Working on a decorative wagon wheel in wood, but I'd really like to put
>>> a metal tire on it. Now, that's no trick if it's just for looks--make a
>>> steel ring that's close enough to the dimension that a little epoxy
>>> under it will hold it, but the devil in me wants to do a proper job and
>>> shrink the thing.
>>>
>>> Trouble is that this is a no-burn area so I can't just light a fire in
>>> the back yard and heat the tire.
>>>
>>> So, any ideas on how to go about this? The wheel is 2 feet in diameter,
>>> making the tire too big to fit in a barbecue or the like. If I was
>>> making a bunch of 'em I'd be tempted to just build a charcoal pit big
>>> enough and call it a barbie, but that's a lot of work for one wheel.
>>>
>>> And yeah, I know I can find a blacksmith, but I'm more interested in the
>>> making than in having a wheel.
>>
>> 2 feet in diameter is about the size of a large pizza. Will it fit
>> in your oven?
>
>No. 21 wide by 17 deep. There's also the question of whether it gets
>hot enough for good take-up. The tire doesn't just have to fit, it has
>to be a little undersized when cold so that it loads the wooden parts in
>compression--that's where the strength of the wheel comes from. 500F
>will give about a quarter inch of expansion with low carbon steel, red
>heat will give close to a half inch. The various 1800s and early 1900s
>blacksmithing journals suggest that the iron in use at the time would
>expand more than this.
>
>By the way, the large pizza from the big chains is 14-15 inch, the
>independents may go 18.

Yeahbut applies. a standard commercial pizza oven holds typically
*six* minimum (16-18") and will hit into the 8-900F range if pushed.

Now, arranging to "borrow' a pizza place's oven, *that's* a whole nuther
level of complexity. <grin>

Similarly, it'd take a *really* big ceramics kiln to fit that tire in.

"Frank Warner" <[email protected]> wrote

> I'm coming in late and you've probably already solved the problem. But,
> if not, have you considered induction heating? No open flames, no
> smoke, and I know it can be done with small pieces (bearings, e.g.)
> with regular house current. Here's the relevant section from Wikipedia:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_heating
>
You can also make your own oven in the garage. I have stacked up bricks to
make an area as large as is needed, and put a piece of drywall on top of it.
Use a hot plate or burner from a scavanged stove for the heat.
--
Jim in NC

Robert Bonomi wrote:
>
> In article <[email protected]>,
> J. Clarke <[email protected]> wrote:
> >On 7/31/2010 10:13 AM, Larry W wrote:
> >> In article<[email protected]>,
> >> J. Clarke<[email protected]> wrote:
> >>> Working on a decorative wagon wheel in wood, but I'd really like to put
> >>> a metal tire on it. Now, that's no trick if it's just for looks--make a
> >>> steel ring that's close enough to the dimension that a little epoxy
> >>> under it will hold it, but the devil in me wants to do a proper job and
> >>> shrink the thing.
> >>>
> >>> Trouble is that this is a no-burn area so I can't just light a fire in
> >>> the back yard and heat the tire.
> >>>
> >>> So, any ideas on how to go about this? The wheel is 2 feet in diameter,
> >>> making the tire too big to fit in a barbecue or the like. If I was
> >>> making a bunch of 'em I'd be tempted to just build a charcoal pit big
> >>> enough and call it a barbie, but that's a lot of work for one wheel.
> >>>
> >>> And yeah, I know I can find a blacksmith, but I'm more interested in the
> >>> making than in having a wheel.
> >>
> >> 2 feet in diameter is about the size of a large pizza. Will it fit
> >> in your oven?
> >
> >No. 21 wide by 17 deep. There's also the question of whether it gets
> >hot enough for good take-up. The tire doesn't just have to fit, it has
> >to be a little undersized when cold so that it loads the wooden parts in
> >compression--that's where the strength of the wheel comes from. 500F
> >will give about a quarter inch of expansion with low carbon steel, red
> >heat will give close to a half inch. The various 1800s and early 1900s
> >blacksmithing journals suggest that the iron in use at the time would
> >expand more than this.
> >
> >By the way, the large pizza from the big chains is 14-15 inch, the
> >independents may go 18.


Cassano's used to sell a 40" party pizza, but you had to order it
three days before the party. The price was about $30, 25 years ago. I
always wanted to see how much I could eat, in one try. When I was in my
20s, we used to have pizza eating contests. We had a half hour for
lunch, which gave us 20 minutes to eat. I could put away one and a half
18" thick crust pizza and two large glasses of Pepsi. I weighted 175
pounds. The only one in the group who ever beat me weighed close to 400
pounds. :)

http://cassanos.com/


> Yeahbut applies. a standard commercial pizza oven holds typically
> *six* minimum (16-18") and will hit into the 8-900F range if pushed.


A lot of places use belt drive ovens these days. They look like
early hot air reflow soldering machines.


> Now, arranging to "borrow' a pizza place's oven, *that's* a whole nuther
> level of complexity. <grin>
>
> Similarly, it'd take a *really* big ceramics kiln to fit that tire in.

"Ve haf vays to make you tok."

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" <lloydspinsidemindspring.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung##spamblock**@hotmail.com> fired this volley
in
news:[email protected]:

> If you heat it up, and then slide it onto the wooden wheel. Won't
> that
> char the wheel some?

It does, indeed. The "art" is in having it char away less wood than
the
amount it will shrink after cooling. There are ways.

LLoyd

On Wed, 4 Aug 2010 16:44:46 -0400, "ATP" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Michael A. Terrell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> ATP wrote:
>>>
>>> "Steve W." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> > You should talk to one of the local Amish smiths. In this area they are
>>> > using a neat wheel. They look like the standard wood/steel
>>> > construction.
>>> > BUT they actually have a wood center/spokes/rim, Then they have a layer
>>> > of rubber glued to that and a steel ring around all of it. The rubber
>>> > gives a better ride and seems to lower the wear on the steel as well.
>>>
>>> Sounds a bit fancy and prideful to me...
>>
>>
>> Why? It sounds like less labor, for a longer useful life.
>
>I'm kidding, but the Amish have an unusual take on things. I guess rubber
>under the steel is OK, but rubber tires would be unholy. But whatever
>they're doing seems to be working for them. I wonder if they're still busy
>making those stoves...

Don't know about stoves, but they're still doing some nice woodworking. We
have a couple of rooms and will be adding more this year.

J. Clarke wrote:
> On 7/31/2010 9:01 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
>> Six guys with six torches? When I was more actively doing HVAC. The
>> boss and I would chit chat while we used two torches and two rolls of
>> solder to assemble 1 1/4 copper pipe for boiler heat systems.
>
> Looking at this further, I may need a bigger tank than I'd want to
> handle to get this whole thing to red heat with oxyacetylene. Mongo
> weed burner is looking like the right tool.
>


Or maybe two of them.
One on each side would sure make for a quicker job.

--

Richard Lamb

On Sat, 31 Jul 2010 15:32:44 -0400, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 7/31/2010 10:30 AM, Steve Lusardi wrote:
>> Simple, make the ring 1/8 small. Roll to shape and butt weld. Dress with
>> a grinder and heat with a rose bud acetylene torch . Set in place and
>> let it cool. No smoke, no noise and no problems.
>
>Thinking on this yet more, any recommendation on a starter setup for
>acetylene? Should I go with the Lincoln package that Lowes and Home
>Despot and the like have, or find a welding store and ask for advice or
>is there a standard first set that everbody has or what?
>
>If I'm going to spend the money I may as well get set up with something
>decent that can grow with me.

Check your local Craigslist or put on an add for a torch, tips, ROSEBUD
and gauges.

Most of the sets Ive found here in California are the tiny a/c service
bottles. Get the biggest set of bottles (and cart) you can find.

Gunner


"A conservative who doesn't believe? in God simply doesn't pray;
a godless liberal wants no one to pray. A conservative who doesn't
like guns doesn't buy one; a liberal gun-hater wants to disarm us all.
A gay conservative has sex his own way; a gay liberal requires us all
to watch and accept his perversion and have it taught to children.
A conservative who is offended by a radio show changes the station;
an offended liberal wants it banned, prosecuted and persecuted."
Bobby XD9

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 31 Jul 2010 21:39:49 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour
> <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>On Jul 31, 10:24 pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> On 7/31/2010 9:58 PM, CW wrote:
>>>
>>> > In the time it has taken to discuss this, I would have dug a shallow
>>> > hole,
>>> > filled it with charcoal and done it. This is a classic case of
>>> > overcomplicating things.
>>>
>>> Not an option. If it was I would already have done it.
>>
>>I don't understand something about this no-fire regulation. Where
>>exactly is it that you can't have a BBQ? Seems outlandish.
>
> A *lot* of places have no *open* fire regulations, at least part of the
> time.
> There are "Red Flag" warnings issued here on dry days (quite often in the
> Winter). Some areas require a "burn permit" for an open fire.

That "burn permit" is the city wanting to make money under the guise of
"environmentalism". It's about time some of these idiots started
"disappearing".

You need to get the whole tire to about the same heat to get the stretch
you need. How about using a DC welder, as they do to thaw pipes? That
oughta work.
They used to use a pine stick to test for the right temp. When the
pine stick smokes and feels like it is "slippery" when pushed along the
tire when it is touched to the tire, it is hot enough. I think that's
about 700° F or so.
You will need at least 4 supports under the wheel for the tire to
stop at. More is better. Be ready with at least one helper. And have
4 or 5 pails of water sitting right by your setup to cook the assembly
so it doesn't scortch to much.
The amount of undersize that you will need will depend on how round
the tire is and how round the wheel is. Also depends upon how tightly
the wheel parts fit. If you start out with a tire about 1/8" undersize
and it doesn't shrink up tight, you can shorten it and try again.

I have only assisted in one session doing this to 4 wheels for a circus
Hippopotamus wagon, but that's what I remember.

Pete Stanaitis
--------------------------------------------------

J. Clarke wrote:
> Working on a decorative wagon wheel in wood, but I'd really like to put
> a metal tire on it. Now, that's no trick if it's just for looks--make a
> steel ring that's close enough to the dimension that a little epoxy
> under it will hold it, but the devil in me wants to do a proper job and
> shrink the thing.
>
> Trouble is that this is a no-burn area so I can't just light a fire in
> the back yard and heat the tire.
>
> So, any ideas on how to go about this? The wheel is 2 feet in diameter,
> making the tire too big to fit in a barbecue or the like. If I was
> making a bunch of 'em I'd be tempted to just build a charcoal pit big
> enough and call it a barbie, but that's a lot of work for one wheel.
>
> And yeah, I know I can find a blacksmith, but I'm more interested in the
> making than in having a wheel.

On 07/31/2010 08:26 AM, RicodJour wrote:
> On Jul 31, 10:24 am, "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 7/31/2010 9:44 AM, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> In article<[email protected]>,
>>> "J. Clarke"<[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>> Working on a decorative wagon wheel in wood, but I'd really like to put
>>>> a metal tire on it. Now, that's no trick if it's just for looks--make a
>>>> steel ring that's close enough to the dimension that a little epoxy
>>>> under it will hold it, but the devil in me wants to do a proper job and
>>>> shrink the thing.
>>
>>>> Trouble is that this is a no-burn area so I can't just light a fire in
>>>> the back yard and heat the tire.
>>
>>>> So, any ideas on how to go about this? The wheel is 2 feet in diameter,
>>>> making the tire too big to fit in a barbecue or the like. If I was
>>>> making a bunch of 'em I'd be tempted to just build a charcoal pit big
>>>> enough and call it a barbie, but that's a lot of work for one wheel.
>>
>>>> And yeah, I know I can find a blacksmith, but I'm more interested in the
>>>> making than in having a wheel.
>>
>>> A charcoal fire will do the trick, and most jurisdictions allow grills. It's
>>> the smoke they object to.
>>
>>> How big is the tire?
>>
>> <sigh> Count up four paragraphs.
>
> I counted up four paragraphs and it said some thing about finding a
> blacksmith, but nothing about the size of the wheel.
>
> How big is the wheel? {ducking}

"The wheel is 2 feet in diameter, making the tire too big to fit in a
barbecue or the like."

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html