Moving the shop to the basement

Only comment on the dust collection is to capture it at the source/tool bef=
ore it gets into the air. If you are capturing the dust in those air filtr=
ation systems that hang from the ceiling, then it is too late. Its already=
in the air AND your LUNGS. Look at the European tools. They seem to pay =
more attention to dust collection and safety of the user. Festool is a fre=
quently mentioned brand. And others. The full face respirators make sense=
. They put clean air over your face to breathe and keep the dirty, dusty a=
ir out of your lungs.

On Sat, 5 Mar 2016 16:36:13 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:

>On 3/5/2016 10:13 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>> Only comment on the dust collection is to capture it at the
>>> source/tool before it gets into the air.
>>
>> Try as I might that doesn't work out in practice as well as it does in
>> theory... Dust escapes off the top of the saw blade, out of the sides of
>> sheet/disk sanders, off the ends of belt sanders, around the band saw
>> blade, etc.
>
>IMHO the dust that is produced by a TS, BS, jointer etc is not the dust
>that is going to be as harmful as the dust coming off of the sanders.
>
>Not trying to be a smart ass but until you use a Festool sander and vac
>with HEPA certification you have not seen what can actually be captured.

I was going to let you do the Festool commercial. ;-)

But you're right. I don't have the Festool Vac (yet) but have been
sanding today with a Crapsman shop vac with a HEPA filter. The
escaped dust is minimal but it is there. The sander isn't exactly
clean after use. I didn't worry about traipsing upstairs without
changing clothes, though. SWMBO didn't yell at me, either. ;-)

BTW, the Granat paper is great stuff. I did have trouble with the
edges fraying, though. I was doing inside corners and a lot of edges,
though.
>
>Some does escape, but typically not enough to be a problem. As I have
>commented earlier I don't carry dust into the house after sanding. In
>fact I produce much more dust when using a 4" square piece of sand paper
>to hand sand to ease over a few edges that gets away during the sanding
>of a whole job using the Festool setup. About 8 years ago I refaced a
>kitchen for a customer. He taped off the openings of the cabinets on
>the inside so that the edges of the face frames were exposed. I sanded
>for about an hour going through 3 grits and he could find no dust on the
>counter tops. He felt that taping the cabinets was a waste of his time.
>But in all seriousness I can run my sander over the edge of a panel and
>see the dust fall away and immediately get sucked back up into the
>sander from mid air.
>
>
>
>
>
>

"Gramps' shop" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> We're giving up the house and moving to a condo. This means moving my
> shop from my 3-car garage to the basement. As I have a bit of COPD, I
> need to be more careful of dust and solvents. The three open garage
> doors were a blessing.
>
> I use conventional dust masks while sanding and have a 2hp dust
> collector. Any recommendations on a suitable air filtration system
> that won't set me back a fortune? Also ... any thoughts on the
> benefit of a full face respirator? Kind of the equivalent of a
> condom, eh?
>
> Larry

Want to give a Trend AirShield Pro a try? I can't use it because the dry
moving air drives my sinuses nuts and I wind up with a cold. I'd be
willing to send it to you to try for a bit with the promise of some kind
of trade in turn.

Maybe a halfway decent Stanley hand plane or two, Bosch Jigsaw, lathe
tooling, or even just some nice hardwood... Something along those lines.

Puckdropper

"John Grossbohlin" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Festool does have a good track record in that regard. However, I
> imagine that like many others my tool assortment started 30+ years ago
> and consists of other brands... I've got almost all Porter-Cable
> tailed hand tools (at least 15 of them that I can think of without
> visiting the shop) and most of them are 20+ years old. I've been able
> to get parts for them to keep them running so I don't anticipate
> replacing any of them unless they totally fail. As such, unless I have
> a large cash windfall that allows me to abandon everything I own I
> don't see Festool in my future. ;~)

I was really impressed with a new Bosch ROS a few months ago. Even without
a vacuum attached (I didn't have one at my aunt's house), it got about 90%
of the dust. Sure wasn't bad at all.

Puckdropper

Hepa filter to sweep the air 24x7.
Martin

On 3/4/2016 6:54 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
> We're giving up the house and moving to a condo. This means moving my shop from my 3-car garage to the basement. As I have a bit of COPD, I need to be more careful of dust and solvents. The three open garage doors were a blessing.
>
> I use conventional dust masks while sanding and have a 2hp dust collector. Any recommendations on a suitable air filtration system that won't set me back a fortune? Also ... any thoughts on the benefit of a full face respirator? Kind of the equivalent of a condom, eh?
>
> Larry
>

On 3/5/2016 6:54 PM, krw wrote:
> On Sat, 5 Mar 2016 16:36:13 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
>> On 3/5/2016 10:13 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>>> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>> Only comment on the dust collection is to capture it at the
>>>> source/tool before it gets into the air.
>>>
>>> Try as I might that doesn't work out in practice as well as it does in
>>> theory... Dust escapes off the top of the saw blade, out of the sides of
>>> sheet/disk sanders, off the ends of belt sanders, around the band saw
>>> blade, etc.
>>
>> IMHO the dust that is produced by a TS, BS, jointer etc is not the dust
>> that is going to be as harmful as the dust coming off of the sanders.
>>
>> Not trying to be a smart ass but until you use a Festool sander and vac
>> with HEPA certification you have not seen what can actually be captured.
>
> I was going to let you do the Festool commercial. ;-)
>
> But you're right. I don't have the Festool Vac (yet) but have been
> sanding today with a Crapsman shop vac with a HEPA filter. The
> escaped dust is minimal but it is there. The sander isn't exactly
> clean after use. I didn't worry about traipsing upstairs without
> changing clothes, though. SWMBO didn't yell at me, either. ;-)

I remember the days when I had to blow off, change clothes. and take a
shower after sanding. I hardly have to take a shower more than once a
month now. ;~)



>
> BTW, the Granat paper is great stuff. I did have trouble with the
> edges fraying, though. I was doing inside corners and a lot of edges,
> though.

Yeah, I think I may have said somewhere that I thought the Ruben paper
was heavier and I originally had doubts about the toughness of the
Granat. But it will last and last and is hard to clog.
It is tougher however than the paper it supposedly replaced, the
Cristal, IIRC>




>>
>> Some does escape, but typically not enough to be a problem. As I have
>> commented earlier I don't carry dust into the house after sanding. In
>> fact I produce much more dust when using a 4" square piece of sand paper
>> to hand sand to ease over a few edges that gets away during the sanding
>> of a whole job using the Festool setup. About 8 years ago I refaced a
>> kitchen for a customer. He taped off the openings of the cabinets on
>> the inside so that the edges of the face frames were exposed. I sanded
>> for about an hour going through 3 grits and he could find no dust on the
>> counter tops. He felt that taping the cabinets was a waste of his time.
>> But in all seriousness I can run my sander over the edge of a panel and
>> see the dust fall away and immediately get sucked back up into the
>> sander from mid air.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

On 3/5/2016 10:13 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> Only comment on the dust collection is to capture it at the
>> source/tool before it gets into the air.
>
> Try as I might that doesn't work out in practice as well as it does in
> theory... Dust escapes off the top of the saw blade, out of the sides of
> sheet/disk sanders, off the ends of belt sanders, around the band saw
> blade, etc.

IMHO the dust that is produced by a TS, BS, jointer etc is not the dust
that is going to be as harmful as the dust coming off of the sanders.

Not trying to be a smart ass but until you use a Festool sander and vac
with HEPA certification you have not seen what can actually be captured.

Some does escape, but typically not enough to be a problem. As I have
commented earlier I don't carry dust into the house after sanding. In
fact I produce much more dust when using a 4" square piece of sand paper
to hand sand to ease over a few edges that gets away during the sanding
of a whole job using the Festool setup. About 8 years ago I refaced a
kitchen for a customer. He taped off the openings of the cabinets on
the inside so that the edges of the face frames were exposed. I sanded
for about an hour going through 3 grits and he could find no dust on the
counter tops. He felt that taping the cabinets was a waste of his time.
But in all seriousness I can run my sander over the edge of a panel and
see the dust fall away and immediately get sucked back up into the
sander from mid air.

"Leon" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>On 3/6/2016 10:17 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:

> Festool does have a good track record in that regard. However, I imagine
> that like many others my tool assortment started 30+ years ago and
> consists of other brands... I've got almost all Porter-Cable tailed hand
> tools (at least 15 of them that I can think of without visiting the
> shop) and most of them are 20+ years old. I've been able to get parts
> for them to keep them running so I don't anticipate replacing any of
> them unless they totally fail. As such, unless I have a large cash
> windfall that allows me to abandon everything I own I don't see Festool
> in my future. ;~)


>It is all to do with what your priorities are.

>Expensive to replace, yes.

>A trip to the hospital for health issues, more expensive.

Yup... priorities and opportunity costs abound!

Putting things in context: If I were doing this day in day out to make a
living I'd be doing a lot of things differently... I'd have at least 6-10
times more floor space; Ceilings at least 12'; Bigger cyclone dust collector
located in it's own room/shed; Larger spiral pipe for the dust collection
trunk lines with hard piped connections to machines; Larger ambient air
cleaners; Separate room/building for finishing with air handling/filtration;
A panel saw or large electronic table saw with scoring blade and sliding
tables to supplement my 3 HP cabinet saw; a 20-24" jointer to supplement my
8", A big European style band saw to replace my 110 year old 36" Crescent
band saw to gain resaw capacity, etc. Last but not least the tailed hand
tools would probably be Festool. In the mean time, as a skilled part-time
hobbyist, I'll stick with my dust collector/ambient air cleaner and work
practices to control the dust from power tools, and continue to use my
tailless hand tools. Since I made the last series of stationary tool and
dust handling upgrades 12 years ago airborne dust has been greatly reduced
and I've had no problems with my eyes, nose, or lungs while working in the
shop... even on those relatively rare occasions when I had to do a lot of
powered dry sanding.

Thanks for the offer, but I'm afraid I''d have the same problem with dry moving air.
>
> Want to give a Trend AirShield Pro a try? I can't use it because the dry
> moving air drives my sinuses nuts and I wind up with a cold. I'd be
> willing to send it to you to try for a bit with the promise of some kind
> of trade in turn.
>
> Maybe a halfway decent Stanley hand plane or two, Bosch Jigsaw, lathe
> tooling, or even just some nice hardwood... Something along those lines.
>
> Puckdropper

On 3/6/2016 10:17 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
> "Leon" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> On 3/5/2016 10:13 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>> Only comment on the dust collection is to capture it at the
>>> source/tool before it gets into the air.
>>
>> Try as I might that doesn't work out in practice as well as it does in
>> theory... Dust escapes off the top of the saw blade, out of the sides of
>> sheet/disk sanders, off the ends of belt sanders, around the band saw
>> blade, etc.
>
>> IMHO the dust that is produced by a TS, BS, jointer etc is not the
>> dust that is going to be as harmful as the dust coming off of the
>> sanders.
>
> If solid wood was the only thing going through the table saw I'd be less
> concerned about it.... running MDF, particle board, PVC, PT, and other
> "man made" products through it is another story... as such my ambient
> air cleaner is positioned to pull the air away from the operator of the
> table saw. Though the chips are pretty well handled by the dust
> collection it is not unusual to find the area around the jointer, BS,
> thickness planer, shaper, and router table covered with fine dust and
> the filters on my ambient air cleaner support that observation. While
> sanding, whether by hand or power, I set up a a dust collector hose to
> draw the dust off and use the ambient air cleaner. Except for around
> bench height I stay pretty clean when sanding. I "shower" with the dust
> collector hose before leaving the shop.
>
> Tracking things out of the shop on the bottom of my shoes is the biggest
> problem. I think I may have a solution to that. I got a large entry door
> mat at Sam's Club last fall. That thing is amazing... When I take my
> English Setter out I make him dance around on the mat to clean his paws.
> I no longer have mud/gravel/grass clippings/leaf litter/water/etc.
> coming into the house on his paws. The mat does an excellent job of
> cleaning off shoes too so I plan to get another one for the shop door.
>
>> Not trying to be a smart ass but until you use a Festool sander and
>> vac with HEPA certification you have not seen what can actually be
>> captured.
>
> Festool does have a good track record in that regard. However, I imagine
> that like many others my tool assortment started 30+ years ago and
> consists of other brands... I've got almost all Porter-Cable tailed hand
> tools (at least 15 of them that I can think of without visiting the
> shop) and most of them are 20+ years old. I've been able to get parts
> for them to keep them running so I don't anticipate replacing any of
> them unless they totally fail. As such, unless I have a large cash
> windfall that allows me to abandon everything I own I don't see Festool
> in my future. ;~)


It is all to do with what your priorities are.

Expensive to replace, yes.

A trip to the hospital for health issues, more expensive.

SNIP

> AND I can walk straight into the house with out bringing in dust after
> sanding.

SWMBO already has spoken to me about tracking shop effluent into the new digs. Depending on what she wants to spend on new flooring and the new kitchen, I may have a couple of bucks left over for shop stuff. Then again, probably not.

On Sat, 5 Mar 2016 11:13:44 -0500, "John Grossbohlin"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>>Only comment on the dust collection is to capture it at the source/tool
>>before it gets into the air.
>
>Try as I might that doesn't work out in practice as well as it does in
>theory... Dust escapes off the top of the saw blade, out of the sides of
>sheet/disk sanders, off the ends of belt sanders, around the band saw blade,
>etc. As such I use an ambient air filter to grab the airborne particles. I
>also set up a dust collector hose to draw air from around items being sanded
>that isn't captured by the collection on the tool itself. I do the same
>thing when using things like a circular saw or trim saw. Between those
>measures and the ambient air filter I capture most of the airborne dust
>pretty well. The chips and shavings coming off the jointer and thickness
>planer are less of an airborne issue but they do need to be removed to avoid
>clogging up the machines...

I'm not too worried about breathing the saw dust that flies off the
front of the table saw. It's pretty big stuff. Sanders are another
matter, entirely. I think dust collection at the source is key, here.
>
>Another solution is to not use power tools or dry sand anything. ;~) I'll
>perfectly happy to use my froe, hand saws, hand planes, spoke shaves,
>scrapers, chisels, etc. to dimension stock and create the joinery. Shavings
>and chips from hand tools don't tend to become air borne beyond their trip
>to the floor. ;~)

That's a solution but not for everyone. ;-)
>

On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 16:54:05 -0800 (PST), "Gramps' shop"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>We're giving up the house and moving to a condo. This means moving my shop from my 3-car garage to the basement. As I have a bit of COPD, I need to be more careful of dust and solvents. The three open garage doors were a blessing.
>
>I use conventional dust masks while sanding and have a 2hp dust collector. Any recommendations on a suitable air filtration system that won't set me back a fortune? Also ... any thoughts on the benefit of a full face respirator? Kind of the equivalent of a condom, eh?
>
>Larry

You might want to look at something similar to this.
http://www.woodcraft.com/product/857601/rikon-3-speed-air-cleaner-400-cfm.aspx

Two separate filters, multi-speed. remote switch and timer off.

You could also fabricate one out of an old FAU saving only the fan
compartment, but something similar to this will get you guaranteed
results if sized for your work area.
If you have a window area you could put in a small duct booster fan
for fresh air at one side and at the other use the same thing for an
exhaust fan. With the three done properly you can in essence have your
3 car fresh air options, still, for safety health reasons get a good
comfortable, easy to breath through mask system if you have copd.

Best of luck to you in your future there.

On 3/5/2016 12:46 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> Only comment on the dust collection is to capture it at the
> source/tool before it gets into the air. If you are capturing the
> dust in those air filtration systems that hang from the ceiling, then
> it is too late. Its already in the air AND your LUNGS. Look at the
> European tools. They seem to pay more attention to dust collection
> and safety of the user. Festool is a frequently mentioned brand.
> And others. The full face respirators make sense. They put clean
> air over your face to breathe and keep the dirty, dusty air out of
> your lungs.
>

They also make full environmental control self contained system with air
packs you wear on your back.

However like respirators, I can not imaging working more that a short
time wearing one.

In fact I don't believe they are designed for full time use.

On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 16:54:05 -0800 (PST)
"Gramps' shop" <[email protected]> wrote:

> I use conventional dust masks while sanding and have a 2hp dust
> collector. Any recommendations on a suitable air filtration system
> that won't set me back a fortune? Also ... any thoughts on the

like other post said collect the dust before it goes into the air


> benefit of a full face respirator? Kind of the equivalent of a

try wearing one for a while and i think you will appreciate the
other advice about not letting the dust in the air in the first
place

they are no fun and are hard to breath thru and you cannot wait
to get that thing off your face

On 3/4/2016 11:46 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> Only comment on the dust collection is to capture it at the
> source/tool before it gets into the air. If you are capturing the
> dust in those air filtration systems that hang from the ceiling, then
> it is too late. Its already in the air AND your LUNGS.

Exactly! I think room air filtration simply keeps the fine dust off of
everything in the shop, a little better than nothing at all but the dust
has to be in the air floating around before getting to the filtration
system.




Look at the
> European tools. They seem to pay more attention to dust collection
> and safety of the user. Festool is a frequently mentioned brand.
> And others. The full face respirators make sense. They put clean
> air over your face to breathe and keep the dirty, dusty air out of
> your lungs.
>

On 3/4/2016 6:54 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
> We're giving up the house and moving to a condo. This means moving
> my shop from my 3-car garage to the basement. As I have a bit of
> COPD, I need to be more careful of dust and solvents. The three open
> garage doors were a blessing.
>
> I use conventional dust masks while sanding and have a 2hp dust
> collector. Any recommendations on a suitable air filtration system
> that won't set me back a fortune? Also ... any thoughts on the
> benefit of a full face respirator? Kind of the equivalent of a
> condom, eh?
>
> Larry
>


Well at the risk of sounding like a broken record,,,

An alternative to air filtration which might not get the dust before
your nose does consider a vac hooked directly to your sanders. I
personally can't stand any type mask on my face. I recall hot and humid
inside.

Anyway Festool, Fein and a few others make HEPA rated shop vacs that are
quiet and very effective used with their same brand sanders. I have
been using the Festool vac and sanders for 7~8 years and I'll never go
back to not using this type set up or a noisy shop vac.

Yes it is expensive but maybe not much more than adding an air
filtration system that actually works well enough for you to not breath
in dust. I typically go straight from sanding to staining or varnishing
with out having to remove dust after sanding.
AND I can walk straight into the house with out bringing in dust after
sanding.

wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>Only comment on the dust collection is to capture it at the source/tool
>before it gets into the air.

Try as I might that doesn't work out in practice as well as it does in
theory... Dust escapes off the top of the saw blade, out of the sides of
sheet/disk sanders, off the ends of belt sanders, around the band saw blade,
etc. As such I use an ambient air filter to grab the airborne particles. I
also set up a dust collector hose to draw air from around items being sanded
that isn't captured by the collection on the tool itself. I do the same
thing when using things like a circular saw or trim saw. Between those
measures and the ambient air filter I capture most of the airborne dust
pretty well. The chips and shavings coming off the jointer and thickness
planer are less of an airborne issue but they do need to be removed to avoid
clogging up the machines...

Another solution is to not use power tools or dry sand anything. ;~) I'll
perfectly happy to use my froe, hand saws, hand planes, spoke shaves,
scrapers, chisels, etc. to dimension stock and create the joinery. Shavings
and chips from hand tools don't tend to become air borne beyond their trip
to the floor. ;~)

John

"Leon" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

On 3/5/2016 10:13 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> Only comment on the dust collection is to capture it at the
>> source/tool before it gets into the air.
>
> Try as I might that doesn't work out in practice as well as it does in
> theory... Dust escapes off the top of the saw blade, out of the sides of
> sheet/disk sanders, off the ends of belt sanders, around the band saw
> blade, etc.

>IMHO the dust that is produced by a TS, BS, jointer etc is not the dust
>that is going to be as harmful as the dust coming off of the sanders.

If solid wood was the only thing going through the table saw I'd be less
concerned about it.... running MDF, particle board, PVC, PT, and other "man
made" products through it is another story... as such my ambient air cleaner
is positioned to pull the air away from the operator of the table saw.
Though the chips are pretty well handled by the dust collection it is not
unusual to find the area around the jointer, BS, thickness planer, shaper,
and router table covered with fine dust and the filters on my ambient air
cleaner support that observation. While sanding, whether by hand or power, I
set up a a dust collector hose to draw the dust off and use the ambient air
cleaner. Except for around bench height I stay pretty clean when sanding. I
"shower" with the dust collector hose before leaving the shop.

Tracking things out of the shop on the bottom of my shoes is the biggest
problem. I think I may have a solution to that. I got a large entry door mat
at Sam's Club last fall. That thing is amazing... When I take my English
Setter out I make him dance around on the mat to clean his paws. I no longer
have mud/gravel/grass clippings/leaf litter/water/etc. coming into the house
on his paws. The mat does an excellent job of cleaning off shoes too so I
plan to get another one for the shop door.

>Not trying to be a smart ass but until you use a Festool sander and vac
>with HEPA certification you have not seen what can actually be captured.

Festool does have a good track record in that regard. However, I imagine
that like many others my tool assortment started 30+ years ago and consists
of other brands... I've got almost all Porter-Cable tailed hand tools (at
least 15 of them that I can think of without visiting the shop) and most of
them are 20+ years old. I've been able to get parts for them to keep them
running so I don't anticipate replacing any of them unless they totally
fail. As such, unless I have a large cash windfall that allows me to abandon
everything I own I don't see Festool in my future. ;~)