Any 240v woodworking equipment need a neutral?

In article <[email protected]>, B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote:
>Doug Miller wrote:
>>
>> Ground it to your planer sled.
>>
>
>Planer sleds take too long to use.

But you won't need a jointer.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"B A R R Y" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> Swingman wrote:
> > "B A R R Y" wrote in message
> >> Swingman wrote:
> >>
> >>> you don't "need" a ground for the equipment to work.
> >> What if it's a dust collector?
> >
> > No problem ... ground it to the jointer.
> >
> What if I don't have a jointer?

No problem ... use one of those wrist thingy's, attach it next to your
electronic ankle bracelet, and ground it to your computer.

We know damn well you have a computer!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06







































;)

"Swingman" made this timely comment
>
> BTW, there is, or used to be, an "Electrical FAQ" posted here periodically
> back in the much kinder, gentler days of the _real men wooddorkers_ of
> yore:
>
> ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/news.answers/electrical-wiring/part1
> ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/news.answers/electrical-wiring/part2
>
> Don't know if it is still valid cuz one of the necessary qualifications
> for
> the previously mentioned wooddorkers was having the (kinder, gentler) time
> to read through it.
>
Maybe if you serve up some of that famous family gumbo and a few cold
brewski's, we will just mellow right out!!

Toller wrote:
> Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without neutrals?
> I am running a new circuit and would prefer to use 10/2 rather than 10/3;
> but sure don't want to do it twice.

I assume you are talking about 10/2 WITH GROUND. You don't need a
neutral, but you definitely need a ground.

DonkeyHody

Toller wrote:
> Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without neutrals?
> I am running a new circuit and would prefer to use 10/2 rather than 10/3;
> but sure don't want to do it twice.

You can use 10/2... on most breaker boxes, the ground and white wire
are connected to the same bus anyhow.. You only need 10/3 for something
like a 4 prong dryer plug.

Toller wrote:

> Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without neutrals?

Not in most of the World, that's for certain.

Doug Miller wrote:
>
> That pretty much goes without saying... I think you'd have a pretty tough time
> buying 10/2, or anything else, withOUT ground, even if you tried. Certainly
> all of the 14, 12, and 10-ga cables that the home center stores carry have a
> ground.
>
OK, maybe my point was unnecessary. My point was not about the
importance of buying the right wire, but hooking up the ground. It's
really no different from wiring anything else he might be hooking up.
I'm just anal about grounding. And GFCI. And a lot of other things you
can get by with for ten thousand times before it kills you on ten
thousand and one. I just don't feel nearly as immortal as I once did.

DonkeyHody
"I woke up on the right side of the grass again this morning."

Swingman wrote:
[snipped for brevity]
>
> Now, we sit back and wait for the flames to start ...
>

*smacking my forehead on my desk*

OH NOES!!!, Not THIS farking topic again????

As an EE, my philosophy is very simple: If you need to be asking
questions like that, you shouldn't be screwing with it. And to even
THINK about whether to use a ground or not is simply beyond me.
I have seen accident reports and photographs come across my
desk-------->>>220 can bite your ass big time, blow off a few fingers
if you're really lucky and the juice doesn't go from one hand via your
chest anywhere. That 220 will kill you.You will not be pining, you'll
pass on. You will be no more. You will have ceased to be. Expired and
gone to meet your maker. You'll be a stiff. Bereft of life, you'll rest
in peace.........

I think the stock answer, here in the Wreck, should be: "GET AN
ELECTRICIAN!"

And while the electrician is there, have him run some ground wires on
your dust collector.


ok..my bad..


r

In article <[email protected]>,
Toller <[email protected]> wrote:
>Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without neutrals?

Anything that has just a 240V motor does not need a neutral. But
accessories such as lights do. As electronic controls on tools will
become more common, I would expect more of them to need neutrals.

Just because you run 4-wire cable does not mean you have to install
the much more expensive 4-wire outlets; those can be retrofitted when
needed.

Side remark: What everyone calls neutral (on a 120/240V circuit), the
electrical code calls the grounded conductor. What everyone calls
ground, the electrical code calls the grounding conductur. The
difference is small, but crucial.

>I am running a new circuit and would prefer to use 10/2 rather than 10/3;
>but sure don't want to do it twice.

If you don't want to do it twice, then run 10/3 (with ground!) now.
Even better, in a few places where you might want to add high-powered
tools (such as a 5HP table saw), run 8-3 instead; the cost is only a
little higher. Ideally, you should run conduit (3/4" EMT is better,
as it is easier to pull #10 and #8 wires through it); but installing
conduit in an existing stud wall is a big pain, and flexible conduit
is really hard to pull through. While you are at it, terminate all
240V cables in extra-deep metal 2-gang boxes (not plastic), with mud
rings. Then you can later replace the single-gang mud ring with a
2-gang mud ring, and install larger outlets: trying to squeeze a 50A
4-wire 240V outlet into a single-gang box is either impossible or very
hard, and certainly violates code.

"bf" <[email protected]> wrote:
> You can use 10/2... on most breaker boxes, the ground and white wire
> are connected to the same bus anyhow.. You only need 10/3 for
> something like a 4 prong dryer plug.

If you mean by this that you can use 10/2 with ground wire, and then
at the device end use the ground as both a neutral and a ground, you
are absolutely wrong. Yes, they may be connected at the breaker box,
but by no means on all breaker boxes (read the electrical code, in
many cases they have to be isolated from each other). Deliberately
running current through the safety grounding wire is extremely
dangerous, bordering on suicidal. Extremely bad advice.

While we are at it: I would recommend GFCIs for everything in a shop,
in particular if the shop has a concrete floor, is in a basement, or
has any risk of getting wet. 2-pole 220V GFCI breakers for the
electrical panel are inexpensive and easy to find.

--
The address in the header is invalid for obvious reasons. Please
reconstruct the address from the information below (look for _).
Ralph Becker-Szendy _firstname_@lr_dot_los-gatos_dot_ca.us

Swingman wrote:

>
> ... and joint that sumbitch while you're at it!
>

Well, yeah... always joint everything. It is bad not to joint.

I'm still trying to figure out if I want a left tilt or a right tilt
saw.

r

Doug Miller wrote:

>
> Right, and wiring a 240V motor with three wires (two ungrounded conductors,
> one groundING conductor, and NO groundED conductor) is the approved manner of
> doing so.

Wonder what the 3rd wire on a 220 outlet on a generator does? It isn't
a 'ground' until you hammer in several feet of copper rod into the
ground beside the generator..or am I just stirring shit?

r

Toller wrote:


> No, it is only a neutral with our 240v system, but that is just a name.
> But that is pretty much my point; 3 wires - hot, grounded/neutral,
> grounding.

Nope.. that's not it. wire 1 is phase 1 at 120 to ground/neutral
wire 2 is phase 2 at 120 to groun/neutral. Potential between wire one
and 2 is 240,
No ground required, but highly recommended... and downright silly not
to have a ground. (Wire # 3, in a 10/2 a copper uninsulated wire aka
ground.
In a 10/3 there are 4 wires.

Swingman wrote:
> "Robatoy" wrote in message
> >
> > Swingman wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > ... and joint that sumbitch while you're at it!
> > >
> >
> > Well, yeah... always joint everything. It is bad not to joint.
> >
> > I'm still trying to figure out if I want a left tilt or a right tilt
> > saw.
>
> Keep in mind that if you have a left tilt saw, you need a right tilt jointer
> to keep things complementary.

Agreed....IF you reverse the groundwire. When dealing with
counter-rotating wooddorking machines, you don't have to give it any
stick when becoming airborne.

Toller wrote:

> Really? In countries where the base voltage, how many wires do they have?

Same as anywhere else. It's not the voltage, it's the number of phases.

If you use single phase (and "domestic" always does) then you need a
neutral. This isn't because you "need" it as a consumer, just because
it's the convenient way to tap a supply transformer for a single phase
output.

If you use multi-phase (i.e. three phase), then you don't need and
don't use a neutral. There's just little point to it.

If you choose too low a consumption voltage in designing a system-wide
standard (i.e. 110V) then it becomes necessary to also provide a high
"high power domestic" feed of twice this, hacked together by using
opposing phases of a two phase supply. You don't even need neutral here
either. It can be useful though for loads that are easily split in two
(i.e. heating elements) and is naturally provided if the "double
voltage" system is already providing a neutral connection to the supply
transformer's centre tap.

Doug Miller wrote:

> Ummmmm.... the "grounded" conductor and the "neutral" conductor are the same
> thing.

No they're not! Only in TN-C systems. There are several other ways to
arrange things, and the others are just as popular.

Toller, If it's only a 240v motor the 10-2 is correct. Let us know what
machine you are trying to connect. Are you connecting to a main panel
or a sub panel?

Doug Miller wrote:

> >If you use multi-phase (i.e. three phase), then you don't need and
> >don't use a neutral. There's just little point to it.
>
> Explain that a little further, if you would please. Here in the US, 3-phase
> power *does* have a neutral. The voltage is (typically) 208V phase-to-phase,
> and 120V phase-to-neutral.

That's not a 3-phase system, it's a combination of 3-phase and single
phase. Only the single phase component needs the neutral to supply
power, but because it's also bonded to the local earth it's supplied as
well. It's sometimes used for the provision of separate heating
elements on each phase, also with electrode boilers so as to limit
potential difference between the water and earth.

Doug Miller wrote:

> 120V devices
> are powered by using any one of the three phases, and a neutral which is
> bonded to earth ground.
>
> 208V devices use any two of the three phase conductors, or all three, and no
> neutral.

That's what I'm telling you. Both systems are wired through similar
cabling, but the neutral only gets used when it's supplying a simgle
phase device.

And the "208V 2 out of 3 phases" unbalanced systems are an abomination
unto the hallowed memory of Tesla.

Doug Miller wrote:
>The three phases are tapped off a rotary generator at
> the power plant, 120 degrees apart, with the neutral as earth ground.

That is correct. That configuration is visible at the transmission
lines.
The very basic reason for that, is the attainable rpm of either 2 or 4
pole generators.
4 Pole being the choice of large diameter (1800 RPM turbines, lest the
turbine blade-tips break the soundbarrier.)

r

Robatoy wrote:

> The very basic reason for that, is the attainable rpm of either 2 or 4
> pole generators.

What does any of that have to do with the use of 3 phase transmission,
or 3 phase transformers?

Andy Dingley <[email protected]> wrote:
> Robatoy wrote:
>
> > The very basic reason for that, is the attainable rpm of either 2 or 4
> > pole generators.
>
> What does any of that have to do with the use of 3 phase transmission,
> or 3 phase transformers?

Everything. Try working out the rpm at 60 Hz and pole structure with 4
or 5 windings.

Is any of it relevant to the topic at hand? Nope.

r

Leon wrote:
> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
>
> >
> > Keep in mind that if you have a left tilt saw, you need a right tilt
> > jointer
> > to keep things complementary.
>
>
> BUT !! Would you not have to run your fresh cut wood through a right tilt
> jointer, Backwards if you use a left tilt saw?

How fresh?

r

Leon wrote:
> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > "B A R R Y" wrote in message
> >> Swingman wrote:
> >>
> >> > you don't "need" a ground for the equipment to work.
> >>
> >> What if it's a dust collector?
> >
> > No problem ... ground it to the jointer.
>
>
> BUT don't lick you finger and touch it.

I don't know you well enough to have you lick MY finger.

r

Doug Miller wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote:
> >Robatoy wrote:
> >>
> >> I'm still trying to figure out if I want a left tilt or a right tilt
> >> saw.
> >
> >Important, as we want to ground the correct side. Otherwise, the
> >electrons may not fit down the wire.
>
> Or, even worse, they'll fall out the wrong end.
>
Have you ever tried to sweep those?
The only thing that sweeps fallen electricals is an oscilloscoop.

Swingman wrote:
> "Leon" wrote in message
>
> > Nope, not liable just like you are not liable if you sell your car and the
> > new owner wrecks it. The owner is making the decision to buy your house
> and
> > has every opportunity to inspect or have it inspected before closing.
> > Unless stipulations are noted, houses are sold "as is".
>
> Except for "new" houses, at least in Texas.
>

I know that to be the case in Ontario, and I'm pretty sure in all of
Kanuckistan.
New houses have warranties as well. But ifyou have a 1000 sq-ft house
and decide to add 4000 sq-ft, you're on your own with the contractor.
(Still needs to meet code though.)

Anyone can install wiring. That's why there are inspectors. Same with
plumbing.
Natural Gas fitters are a different story, for all the obvious reasons.

You need a 3-phase power if your cutterhead on your jointer has 3
blades.

r

[email protected] wrote:

>
> Just curious, though, does the Sawstop saw require 240V with neutral?
>
>

That oughtta be good for another 50 posts..LOL

Good one, Larry.

*Still laughing*

r

A Lurker wrote:

> Oh what to do! I'm currently wrestling with my used right tilt Unisaw
> that I recently upgraded to, but my black leads are going to the left
> side screws on the 240volt receptacles. I'm afraid they must go to the
> right side screw terminals, so I guess I have to get rid of it and get a
> left tilt saw to match my wiring. By the way which is better left or
> right tilt saws.

Nonononoooo. Use spade lugs. Most garden supply stores will sell them.
Left tilt, right tilt.. whaddisthis a frickin' pinball? Kidding. The
left tilt is better.
>
> And now Rob says I need 3 phase power. The DJ-20 that BARRY made me aware
> of says it is single phase on the motor, but it has three cutter heads.
> If I upgrade to three phase power what happens if I then upgrade to a
> spiral cutter head, will I need 60K power for all those multiple cutters?

You can get around that by getting a frequency converter. Either solid
state or an old motor/generator set. With all them cutters, you'll need
to get the frequency way up, and as far as I know, only the power
supply of a Tupolev jet-liner has an M/G set that will work. They can
be had.
>
> And now I'm going to do my dust collection. So I have heavy walled
> spiral pipe and fittings along with blast proof Kevlar hoses (yes I'm not
> kidding .... but they were a freebie)but do I need to ground the bags on
> the collector itself; after all they are only fabric and the dust in them
> is not grounded. The complexity and danger of it all, good thing I read
> the Wreck daily :)
>
DUDE!! Ground the bags... do it now!!! If too many electricals build up
in the corner of the bag, and you touch it.. your bag can blow right
off!

It could happen....

r --->who thinks that our friends Down Under have to reverse to a
right-tilt.

Toller wrote:
> Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without neutrals?
> I am running a new circuit and would prefer to use 10/2 rather than 10/3;
> but sure don't want to do it twice.

Most doesn't need neutral. However, consider a 240V bandsaw with a 120V
work-light on it. You could rig this up to run off a single plug, but
you would need a neutral. (Basically the same scenario as an electric
kitchen stove.)

That said, it would probably be cheaper to run 10/2 and 14/2 and provide
two receptacles rather than running 10/3.

Chris

bf wrote:

> You can use 10/2... on most breaker boxes, the ground and white wire
> are connected to the same bus anyhow.. You only need 10/3 for something
> like a 4 prong dryer plug.

The safety ground is there for a reason...you really don't want to be
running current through it on a normal basis, especially when it may be
connected to the metal equipment body.

As mentioned earlier, if the 240V equipment has any 120V accessories on
it, then you need 3-conductor wire and a 4-prong plug. (Or two separate
plugs.)

Chris

alexy wrote:
> Chris Friesen <[email protected]> wrote:

>>That said, it would probably be cheaper to run 10/2 and 14/2 and provide
>>two receptacles rather than running 10/3.

> Or, cheaper yet, buy a 240-volt bulb. That's what my bandsaw has, but
> I've never replaced it--are they hard to find?

Yep, probably that's the best bet for a task light. I have no idea how
hard they are to get...but they don't show up at my favorite tool store
or at Home Depot.

Might have to go to a lighting supplier.

Chris

resrfglc wrote:
> One other point: Insurance.
>
> If there's a fire, etc. and the investigation uncovers your home-brew
> cost-saving electrical work, your insurance company can simply deny your
> claim because you promised them you would never install electrical without a
> permit, licensed contractor and appropriate inspections.
>
> A missing neutral would be hard to disguise!

If you've got 240V equipment with no 120V accessories, then there's no
reason to have a neutral.

For a pure 240V load you have two hots and a grounding conductor (aka
"ground"). No neutral is needed or required by code.

The only time you need a grounded conductor (aka "neutral") is when you
have unbalanced loads on the two hots. This is only the case if you
have a mix of 120/240V devices on that circuit.

Chris

On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 19:48:21 GMT, resrfglc wrote:

> CODES DO REQUIRE IT. Call your County Electrical Inspector. Or, better yet,
> google National Fire & Electrical Codes or similar)

Please cite NEC where it says neutral is required for 220/240V devices.

--
Art Greenberg
artg at eclipse dot net

"B A R R Y" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Swingman wrote:
> > "B A R R Y" wrote in message
> >> Swingman wrote:
> >>
> >>> you don't "need" a ground for the equipment to work.
> >> What if it's a dust collector?
> >
> > No problem ... ground it to the jointer.
> >
>
>
> What if I don't have a jointer?

I haven't used a jointer since the 60's. Then I learnt how to roll my
own...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

In article <[email protected]>, "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Doug Miller wrote:
>
>>
>> Right, and wiring a 240V motor with three wires (two ungrounded conductors,
>> one groundING conductor, and NO groundED conductor) is the approved manner of
>> doing so.
>
>Wonder what the 3rd wire on a 220 outlet on a generator does? It isn't
>a 'ground' until you hammer in several feet of copper rod into the
>ground beside the generator..or am I just stirring shit?

It's the neutral, as in tapped from the center of the transformer secondary,
same as the supply from the utility company. It's there so that you can run
240 *and* 120 loads.

Ground is the generator frame.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Toller wrote:
>
>
>> No, it is only a neutral with our 240v system, but that is just a name.
>> But that is pretty much my point; 3 wires - hot, grounded/neutral,
>> grounding.
>
> Nope.. that's not it. wire 1 is phase 1 at 120 to ground/neutral
> wire 2 is phase 2 at 120 to groun/neutral. Potential between wire one
> and 2 is 240,
> No ground required, but highly recommended... and downright silly not
> to have a ground. (Wire # 3, in a 10/2 a copper uninsulated wire aka
> ground.
> In a 10/3 there are 4 wires.
>
That is true here, but this particular thread is about the rest of the
world. I thought their hots were 240v, but I could be wrong.

"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >Doug Miller wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Right, and wiring a 240V motor with three wires (two ungrounded
conductors,
> >> one groundING conductor, and NO groundED conductor) is the approved
manner of
> >> doing so.
> >
> >Wonder what the 3rd wire on a 220 outlet on a generator does? It isn't
> >a 'ground' until you hammer in several feet of copper rod into the
> >ground beside the generator..or am I just stirring shit?
>
> It's the neutral, as in tapped from the center of the transformer
secondary,
> same as the supply from the utility company. It's there so that you can
run
> 240 *and* 120 loads.
>
> Ground is the generator frame.
>

Only if you tie the generator frame to earth ground.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

http://www.mikeholt.com/index.php?id=homegeneral

Take the time to check this expert web site for a definitive answer
[email protected] for e-mail questions.


"Toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Toller wrote:
>>
>>> Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without
>>> neutrals?
>>
>> Not in most of the World, that's for certain.
>>
> Really? In countries where the base voltage, how many wires do they have?
> I would think a hot, a grounded, and a grounding. What would a "neutral"
> be used for?
>

http://www.mikeholt.com/index.php?id=homegeneral

Take the time to check this expert web site for a definitive answer
[email protected] for e-mail questions.


"Toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Toller wrote:
>>
>>> Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without
>>> neutrals?
>>
>> Not in most of the World, that's for certain.
>>
> Really? In countries where the base voltage, how many wires do they have?
> I would think a hot, a grounded, and a grounding. What would a "neutral"
> be used for?
>

On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 11:07:07 -0600, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Now, if you can convince my framing and trim crews of that, who routinely
>use two wires with NO plug to run their 220v equipment, my hat will be off
>to you! ;)

You only have to fry one of them in front of the others really, the
message will get across. ;P

Markem
(sixoneeight) = 618

In article <[email protected]>, "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> In article <[email protected]>, "Toller"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>><[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>>
>>>> Toller wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without
>>>>> neutrals?
>>>>
>>>> Not in most of the World, that's for certain.
>>>>
>>>Really? In countries where the base voltage, how many wires do they have?
>>>I would think a hot, a grounded, and a grounding. What would a "neutral"
>>>be
>>>used for?
>>>
>> Ummmmm.... the "grounded" conductor and the "neutral" conductor are the
>> same
>> thing.
>>
>No, it is only a neutral with our 240v system, but that is just a name.

No, actually, if it's the grounded conductor, it's the neutral conductor,
regardless.

>But that is pretty much my point; 3 wires - hot, grounded/neutral,
>grounding.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "Toller"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>><[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> Toller wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without
>>>> neutrals?
>>>
>>> Not in most of the World, that's for certain.
>>>
>>Really? In countries where the base voltage, how many wires do they have?
>>I would think a hot, a grounded, and a grounding. What would a "neutral"
>>be
>>used for?
>>
> Ummmmm.... the "grounded" conductor and the "neutral" conductor are the
> same
> thing.
>
No, it is only a neutral with our 240v system, but that is just a name.
But that is pretty much my point; 3 wires - hot, grounded/neutral,
grounding.

Swingman wrote:
> "B A R R Y" wrote in message
>> Swingman wrote:
>>
>>> you don't "need" a ground for the equipment to work.
>> What if it's a dust collector?
>
> No problem ... ground it to the jointer.
>


What if I don't have a jointer?

"resrfglc" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:W6ofh.531$yZ4.255@trnddc05...
> Better you should ask a contingency-fee attorney. Of course its not the
> "norm," but if you re-work your home's electrical service and sell it to
> someone who dies in a fire blamed on your wiring, you can bet the
attorney's
> will be looking at the depth of your pockets.
>
> And don't take legal advice from a real estate broker - they aren't even
> allowed to write purchase and sale contracts!

Instead we should take legal and electrical advice from you?????


>
> All we (those of us urging prudence, code compliance and completeness) are
> doing istryng to give OP the best advice possible. we are talking the
> difference of less than twenty-cents per foot for a host of reasons the
> least of which might well be his eventual liability exposure.

You have not given the OP any advice that is compliant with NEC yet. So,
your point is...?

>
> I grant you that the device will operate if he only pulls two blue twelve
> gauge conductors across the room and staple them to the floor joists
rather
> than enclose them in EMT or the equivalent.
>
> But I wouldn't do it that way nor advise another to take that minimalist
> route to wire shop or home.
>

I get it - you're trying to be a comedian in this thread. Phew! You really
had me going for a while. Hell - I thought you were serious with your other
posts in this thread.


--

-Mike-
[email protected]

In article <[email protected]>, "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
><[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Toller wrote:
>>
>>> Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without
>>> neutrals?
>>
>> Not in most of the World, that's for certain.
>>
>Really? In countries where the base voltage, how many wires do they have?
>I would think a hot, a grounded, and a grounding. What would a "neutral" be
>used for?
>
Ummmmm.... the "grounded" conductor and the "neutral" conductor are the same
thing.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"resrfglc" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:Tdifh.4241$495.1629@trnddc06...

>
> Do it to "code" and you will not be sorry.

Please cite the code that calls for 10/3. Code is quite happy with 10/2.
This is the second time you've referenced "code". Do you know what the code
says?

>
> I know the cost of wire is nuts nowadays, but the old rule "do it right
the
> first time" has proven itself may times over to be the best advice.
>

And right would be 10/2.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"resrfglc" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:txifh.4246$495.2153@trnddc06...

>
> If you "fix" your wiring to do otherwise, none of the safety measures
> designed into the product may save your home or ass as intended.
>
> an your insurance is voided

Wrong.

> and your liability is (neighbor's house catches fire) is 100%.

Wrong.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Robatoy wrote:
>
> I'm still trying to figure out if I want a left tilt or a right tilt
> saw.

Important, as we want to ground the correct side. Otherwise, the
electrons may not fit down the wire.

"resrfglc" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:txifh.4246$495.2153@trnddc06...
> You are confusing physical and electrical "You only need 10/3 for
> something like a 4 prong dryer plug. " and practice with CODE.
>
> The "GROUND (bare copper) is the mechanical ground. The White, neutral is
> the Electrical ground.
>
> Remember, every electrical appliance or tool you purchase is designed and
> built upon the assumption that it will be powered up in an APPROVED MANNER
> that meets the Standard Electrical Code.
>
> If you "fix" your wiring to do otherwise, none of the safety measures
> designed into the product may save your home or ass as intended.
>
> And the manufacturer escapes all liability an your insurance is voided and
> your liability is (neighbor's house catches fire) is 100%.
>
> For this you want to save $23.00?
>
>
I give up, what is a mechanical ground, as opposed to an electrical ground?
And, since 240v machines only have three wires, what do you do with the
extra wire in the supply?

Well, hehe - whilst the subect is VERY serious - I truly needed that giggle.

Of course - key point - if you have to ask - u probably don't get the
sarcasm either.

I am NEARLY complete on my new shed/shop - whats the one thing I didn't
touch...? zzzzt.

:-)

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Swingman wrote:
> [snipped for brevity]
>>
>> Now, we sit back and wait for the flames to start ...
>>
>
> *smacking my forehead on my desk*
>
> OH NOES!!!, Not THIS farking topic again????
>
> As an EE, my philosophy is very simple: If you need to be asking
> questions like that, you shouldn't be screwing with it. And to even
> THINK about whether to use a ground or not is simply beyond me.
> I have seen accident reports and photographs come across my
> desk-------->>>220 can bite your ass big time, blow off a few fingers
> if you're really lucky and the juice doesn't go from one hand via your
> chest anywhere. That 220 will kill you.You will not be pining, you'll
> pass on. You will be no more. You will have ceased to be. Expired and
> gone to meet your maker. You'll be a stiff. Bereft of life, you'll rest
> in peace.........
>
> I think the stock answer, here in the Wreck, should be: "GET AN
> ELECTRICIAN!"
>
> And while the electrician is there, have him run some ground wires on
> your dust collector.
>
>
> ok..my bad..
>
>
> r
>

On Tue, 12 Dec 2006 02:04:38 GMT, "resrfglc" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>"clause where I promise to hire an electrician"
>
>No, its not likely to be so clearly identifiable in the small print. But
>they are rife with exculpation clauses. So is your mortgage agreement.
>Basically, they are not insuring against your failure to do things properly,
>follow the codes, etc.
>
>I'll bet you have never read your insurance policy or mortgage agreement all
>the way through. Not being a smart-ass here, but trying to make thepoint
>that it is best to build in right and bulletproof the first time out for a
>number of reasons not necessarily limited to insurance, liability and so
>forth,
Since I've seen this troll on several usenet sites, I decided I would
read my policy cover to cover to discern the accuracy of the
statement. Not there.

And you don't have to be a licensed electrician to wire by the code.
You just have to know the code.

>
>Let's leave it at: "If your house burned down as a result of an electrical
>fire, would call you all the insurer and advise that you had installed the
>suspected circuit?"
>
>
>"Frank Boettcher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 16:12:02 GMT, "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without
>>>neutrals?
>>>I am running a new circuit and would prefer to use 10/2 rather than 10/3;
>>>but sure don't want to do it twice.
>>>
>>
>>
>> If there are no 120 accessory items on the machine.
>>
>> However, as one who is at this very moment lamenting the fact that he
>> did not plan ahead and pull what he should have pulled when he
>> originally built his shop, and now to expand it will have to pull
>> again, knowing it would have been just as easy and not much more cost
>> to pull more than one would need, my advice in that area should be
>> predictable (as I slap my head in dismay).
>>
>> But:
>>
>> You do not need a grounded conductor if you do not have any
>> requirement for it on the machine.
>>
>> You DO need a grounding conductor. You're health and well being might
>> require it. Additionally, you will negate the work of that fine
>> individual(s) at the end of the assembly line who painstakenly checked
>> each and every machine for complete ground continuity before it was
>> shipped to you.
>>
>> In my area, the only requirement for a licensed electrician is at a
>> service entrance set, and no permit is required to run a circuit
>> inside your house.
>>
>> I don't know about your insurance policy, but mine does not have a
>> clause where I promise to hire an electrician, disallowing the policy
>> if I don't.
>>
>> Frank
>

"resrfglc" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:W6ofh.531$yZ4.255@trnddc05...
> Better you should ask a contingency-fee attorney. Of course its not the
> "norm," but if you re-work your home's electrical service and sell it to
> someone who dies in a fire blamed on your wiring, you can bet the
> attorney's will be looking at the depth of your pockets.

Nope, not liable just like you are not liable if you sell your car and the
new owner wrecks it. The owner is making the decision to buy your house and
has every opportunity to inspect or have it inspected before closing.
Unless stipulations are noted, houses are sold "as is".

"resrfglc" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:W6ofh.530$yZ4.186@trnddc05...

>
> Let's leave it at: "If your house burned down as a result of an electrical
> fire, would call you all the insurer and advise that you had installed the
> suspected circuit?"
>

Yup - and I would be perfectly comfortable having them or any other
inspector look at it. Unlike you, some of us actually know what we are
doing with electricity.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"resrfglc" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:Udifh.4242$495.840@trnddc06...
> One other point: Insurance.
>
> If there's a fire, etc. and the investigation uncovers your home-brew
> cost-saving electrical work, your insurance company can simply deny your
> claim because you promised them you would never install electrical without
a
> permit, licensed contractor and appropriate inspections.
>

Bullshit.

> A missing neutral would be hard to disguise!

There is not "missing neutral". You need to quit giving advice on things
you don't know.


--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"resrfglc" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:sxifh.4243$495.4018@trnddc06...
> Good point. We don't know what may be connected down the road, neitherdoes
> he. And, if the fire occurs to someone he sold the house to - guess who is
> liable for damages?
>

Ah.... my favorite BS stuff. Throw some fear, uncertainty and doubt into
something when proper knowledge fails.

It's a purpose device. Who cares what may go in there in 5 years? Wire
that in at that time. Unless it's a clothes dryer it won't likely need a
neutral anyway.

And... who is liable for damages if there is a house fire? Here it comes...
THE INSURANCE COMPANY. Please explain how the home owner is going to liable
for wiring a saw with 10/2 with a ground? He's not. Even if he wires it
wrong and sells the house, he's not liable. Geeze...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"But if code doesn't require it and "

CODES DO REQUIRE IT. Call your County Electrical Inspector. Or, better yet,
google National Fire & Electrical Codes or similar)


"Toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "resrfglc" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:Udifh.4242$495.840@trnddc06...
>> One other point: Insurance.
>>
>> If there's a fire, etc. and the investigation uncovers your home-brew
>> cost-saving electrical work, your insurance company can simply deny your
>> claim because you promised them you would never install electrical
>> without a permit, licensed contractor and appropriate inspections.
>>
>> A missing neutral would be hard to disguise!
>>
>
> But if code doesn't require it and it isn't connected to anything...
> What on earth is home-brew about it?
>

On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 11:07:07 -0600, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"DonkeyHody" wrote in message
>>
>> Toller wrote:
>> > Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without
>neutrals?
>> > I am running a new circuit and would prefer to use 10/2 rather than
>10/3;
>> > but sure don't want to do it twice.
>>
>> I assume you are talking about 10/2 WITH GROUND. You don't need a
>> neutral, but you definitely need a ground.
>
>Now, if you can convince my framing and trim crews of that, who routinely
>use two wires with NO plug to run their 220v equipment, my hat will be off
>to you! ;)
>
>And for the OP ... In the sense that 220/240 equipment will work without a
>ground wire (just a hot from each leg is all that is "needed" to function),
>you don't "need" a ground for the equipment to work.
>
>BUT, and it's a BIG but, you will surely want to have a ground, if for
>nothing else but code compliance and safety.
>
>The neutral is not used for 220/240v unless the equipment needs 115v
>internally for timers, lights, etc ... not something normally found in
>woodworking shop equipment.
>
>Now, we sit back and wait for the flames to start ...


Wrecklish - A Guide For The Non-Native Speaker

"'Lecktricity" - Although thought to be in the firm grip of science by
most, Wreckers have proven this to be a fecund area of debate and
opinion. When soliciting "Advise" about "'Lecktricity", one must
always be sure that it is "UL Approved", rather than "URL Approved".

"Planner", "Planar", "Planer" - All of these refer to a machine that
is used to thickness and surface lumber. They may be used
interchangeably but the local preference is for "Planner". Some would
insist that a good "Planner" would make his infeed and outfeed
"Planar" with the bed of the "Planer" but these sorts don't last long
around here.


"Jointer", "Joiner" - Also terms that can be swapped indiscriminately
without fear of reprisal. To those who would say that a "Joiner" can
use a "Jointer" but that most "Jointers" lack the intellect to use a
"Joiner" properly, most Wreckers would merely say, "Feh!".


"Mantel", "Mantle" - This one is obviously a fielder's choice although
the origin is cloaked in mystery. It is said by some that a "Joiner"
may wear a "Mantle" whilst building a "Mantel", while one who would
wear a "Mantel" might have a Christ Complex, or at least be
uncomfortable at parties. Ancient references suggest that Mickey
Mantle, while capable of building a Mickey Mantel, could not construct
a Mickey Mantle, at least out of wood. Then again…


"Advice", "Advise", "Vice", "Vise" - Certainly all victims of the same
root structure, these are properly used as follows: "I went to the
Wreck to solicit "Advise" about the proper selection of a "Vice" and
having been "Adviced" by the cognoscenti, I avoided the "Vise" of
misapplication." Sparkling in its clarity, that.


"Board Foot", "Bored Foot" - Whilst one is a unit of measure equal to
144 cubic inches, the other is what happens to a pedestrial appendage
that is used as a hold down on the drill press. Which is which is a
matter of hot debate.


"Tenon", "Tendon" - While it is entirely proper to say "He severed his
"Tendon" while cutting his "Tenon", it is also perfectly fine to say
"He severed his "Tenon" while cutting his "Tendon". Don't worry about
this one it hardly ever comes up.


"SawStop" - A device which has been proven to make safe the cutting of
hotdogs on the tablesaw. The Hotdog, Wurst, Weiner and Kielbasa Cabal
is said to be pushing for its required use on all future tablesaws.


"Spontaneous Combustion" - A theory proposed by the those who insist
that dust collection piping that is made of plastic will lead
inevitably to shop explosions of nearly nuclear force. (cf:
parthenogenesis.)


"Norm", "Roy" - Greek gods cloaked in the motley of modern usage. The
"Normites" make use of "'Lecktricity" (see below) while the "Royds"
eschew all modern devices, save "BandAids", which are specifically
included in their rituals and are, in fact, the common sign of the
brethren, so that they may know each other at WoodDorking Shows.

I must humbly beseech you to accept my apologies for the
incompleteness of this guide and reference. I would hope that Messr.
Eisan of Canukistan would enshrine this poor beginning in the Holy FAQ
as a living document - to be added to and amended as the members see
fit.


I remain, Your Obedient Servant In WoodDorking,

Regards,

Tom Watson

tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

In article <[email protected]>, B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote:
>Doug Miller wrote:
>>
>> Or, even worse, they'll fall out the wrong end.
>
>Upside down electrons have reverse polarity!

Does that make your meter spin backward, so the power company has to pay you?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Roy Smith wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Robatoy wrote:
>>
>>> Have you ever tried to sweep those?
>>> The only thing that sweeps fallen electricals is an oscilloscoop.
>> I get a charge out of that!
>
> Did you hear the one about the two atoms walking down the street? One says
> to the other, "I think I lost an electron". "Are you sure?", asks the
> other. "Yes, I'm positive".


I hope it didn't worry! I'm sure another electron would find it
positively attractive.

In article <[email protected]>, "DonkeyHody" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Toller wrote:
>> Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without neutrals?
>> I am running a new circuit and would prefer to use 10/2 rather than 10/3;
>> but sure don't want to do it twice.
>
>I assume you are talking about 10/2 WITH GROUND. You don't need a
>neutral, but you definitely need a ground.

That pretty much goes without saying... I think you'd have a pretty tough time
buying 10/2, or anything else, withOUT ground, even if you tried. Certainly
all of the 14, 12, and 10-ga cables that the home center stores carry have a
ground.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>

>
> And... who is liable for damages if there is a house fire? Here it
> comes...
> THE INSURANCE COMPANY. Please explain how the home owner is going to
> liable
> for wiring a saw with 10/2 with a ground? He's not. Even if he wires it
> wrong and sells the house, he's not liable. Geeze...
>

That is correct. My insurance man filled me in on that and a real estate
friend concurred.

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Swingman wrote:
> > "Robatoy" wrote in message
> > >
> > > Swingman wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > ... and joint that sumbitch while you're at it!
> > > >
> > >
> > > Well, yeah... always joint everything. It is bad not to joint.
> > >
> > > I'm still trying to figure out if I want a left tilt or a right tilt
> > > saw.
> >
> > Keep in mind that if you have a left tilt saw, you need a right tilt
jointer
> > to keep things complementary.
>
> Agreed....IF you reverse the groundwire.

> When dealing with
> counter-rotating wooddorking machines, you don't have to give it any
> stick when becoming airborne.

Damn ... there's a lot of things a proper dorker needs to keep in mind when
multi-dorking.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06

Doug Miller wrote:
>
> Ground it to your planer sled.
>

Planer sleds take too long to use.

"Unless stipulations are noted, houses are sold "as is"."

You may so stipulate in the contract, but the law does not allow one to
escape liability by making such broad declarations. If you know the wiring
is faulty ( an potentially dangerous condition exists and that the fault
would not be readily apparent (e.g. is hidden) a good attorney could get you
not withstanding your "as-is" declaration.

Of course, if the house were sold as a virtual tear-down - uninhabitable at
closing, for instance, your "as-is" declaration would have more effect. But
if you sol a home that was apparently fully functional and habitation upon
closing was clearly anticipated by the purchaser, you might find the
declaration ineffective at court were he family to have been burned alive in
an electrical ire resulting for thief use of a defective electrical circuit
you installed and did not declare during negotiations.

e.g. you cannot legally hide a dangerous condition and escape liability with
a broad declaration. Under USC every product carries an implied warranty of
suitability for intended use.

I won a case against General Motors years ago in West Palm Beach based upon
the claim that, despite the expiration of the warranty, the defect was
created at the point of manufacture and remained hidden for several years
(e.g. something no inspection absent a complete dismantle could have found)
until the leak materialized and my vehicle no longer kept out the rain.

The case remains in the Public Record. The case also serves the point that
the dollar value is most significant in the decision to sue or seek
overturning a decision.

GM may well have believed they might prevail in an appeal (as I was unable
to afford an attorney) but likely decided the effort was not cost effective.

Had I tried a class action, we might have seen a more vigorous response from
the automaker as the potential claim would have risen to millions of dollars
in fees alone.

Congress has seen fit to change the laws to make it more difficult for you
and I to bring a suit and to limit liability when we do. But, if the stakes
are high enough, one can find an attorney willing to take it on and find a
reading of that insurance policy or sales contract upon which he might
prevail.



"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Leon" wrote in message
>
>> Nope, not liable just like you are not liable if you sell your car and
>> the
>> new owner wrecks it. The owner is making the decision to buy your house
> and
>> has every opportunity to inspect or have it inspected before closing.
>> Unless stipulations are noted, houses are sold "as is".
>
> Except for "new" houses, at least in Texas.
>
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 10/29/06
>
>

Doug Miller wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Doug Miller wrote:
>>> Ground it to your planer sled.
>>>
>> Planer sleds take too long to use.
>
> But you won't need a jointer.
>

_I_ have a jointer, but was asking for the benefit of those who don't.
We don't want to see any electricutions!

Swingman wrote:

> you don't "need" a ground for the equipment to work.

What if it's a dust collector?

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "B A R R Y" wrote in message
>> Swingman wrote:
>>
>> > you don't "need" a ground for the equipment to work.
>>
>> What if it's a dust collector?
>
> No problem ... ground it to the jointer.


BUT don't lick you finger and touch it.

"And... who is liable for damages if there is a house fire? Here it
comes...THE INSURANCE COMPANY."

No, the insurance company isn't liable. The ISURED PARTY is liable. The
Insurance company has contracted to assume some portion of the damages
assessed to the INSURED PARTY after which, the INSURED PARTY is responsible
for the difference.

They have simply agreed to reimburse the insured for a portion of claims
(after the deductible) and often to assume theresponsibility of taking
thecase to court or settling. If you sustain a million dollar judgment plus
fees and had a half-million of coverage, you will be responsible for the
balance "out of pocket." This because you, the insured, are liable for your
acts and omissions.

And, if your insurance company can prove that you did not adhere to the
contract for insurance, they can walk away, leaving you responsible for the
entire judgment.

Stuff they did not teach in Wood shop, but important none the less.




"M Berger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Are either of them a good lawyer? You're not off the
> hook for negligence -- and knowing that you connected
> something not according to code might easily constitute
> negligence.
>
> Leon wrote:
>> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>> And... who is liable for damages if there is a house fire? Here it
>>> comes...
>>> THE INSURANCE COMPANY. Please explain how the home owner is going to
>>> liable
>>> for wiring a saw with 10/2 with a ground? He's not. Even if he wires
>>> it
>>> wrong and sells the house, he's not liable. Geeze...
>>>
>>
>> That is correct. My insurance man filled me in on that and a real estate
>> friend concurred.

>>> Swingman wrote:
>>>
>>>> you don't "need" a ground for the equipment to work.
>>> What if it's a dust collector?
>>
>> No problem ... ground it to the jointer.
>>
>
>
> What if I don't have a jointer?

Ground it to your bench grinder, and call it a jointer.

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>

>
> Keep in mind that if you have a left tilt saw, you need a right tilt
> jointer
> to keep things complementary.


BUT !! Would you not have to run your fresh cut wood through a right tilt
jointer, Backwards if you use a left tilt saw?

In article <[email protected]>,
Andy Dingley <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Robatoy wrote:
>
>> The very basic reason for that, is the attainable rpm of either 2 or 4
>> pole generators.
>
>What does any of that have to do with the use of 3 phase transmission,
>or 3 phase transformers?
>

Or with running a 240V circuit in your basement?

--
For every complicated, difficult problem, there is a simple, easy
solution that does not work.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - [email protected]

In article <[email protected]>,
Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Robatoy" wrote in message
>>
>> Swingman wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > ... and joint that sumbitch while you're at it!
>> >
>>
>> Well, yeah... always joint everything. It is bad not to joint.
>>
>> I'm still trying to figure out if I want a left tilt or a right tilt
>> saw.
>
>Keep in mind that if you have a left tilt saw, you need a right tilt jointer
>to keep things complementary.
>
>--
>www.e-woodshop.net
>Last update: 10/29/06
>
>

I'm holding out for the ambidextrous dual-tilt model.

--
For every complicated, difficult problem, there is a simple, easy
solution that does not work.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - [email protected]

In article <Udifh.4242$495.840@trnddc06>,
resrfglc <[email protected]> wrote:
>One other point: Insurance.
>
>If there's a fire, etc. and the investigation uncovers your home-brew
>cost-saving electrical work, your insurance company can simply deny your
>claim because you promised them you would never install electrical without a
>permit, licensed contractor and appropriate inspections.
>


Oh, yeah, and I'm sure the insurance companies refuse to pay when
you've plugged too many devices into your extension cord, like you
promised you wouldn't too.

I've read and re-read my homeowners policy and while some of the fine
print is quite "amusing", damn if I can find that clause about not
paying if the wiring is not up to code.


--
For every complicated, difficult problem, there is a simple, easy
solution that does not work.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - [email protected]

In article <[email protected]>,
Toller <[email protected]> wrote:
>Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without neutrals?
>I am running a new circuit and would prefer to use 10/2 rather than 10/3;
>but sure don't want to do it twice.
>
>


If I was installing a new circuit I'd definitely go with the 10/3,
reason being that the trend these days is for more and more equipment
to have electronics, CPUs, etc. and while manufacturers _could_ design
the power supplies for these items to run from 240, it would be
cheaper for them to use the more common 120V power supplies. Plus,
with 120 at the equipment, you have more flexibility in adding work
lights, accessories (power feeder maybe?) and using 120V coils in
mag switches, etc.

That said, I must say that almost all of my stuff is used and
personally I don't foresee getting any of that "new fangloed"
equipment in my lifetime.

Just curious, though, does the Sawstop saw require 240V with neutral?


--
For every complicated, difficult problem, there is a simple, easy
solution that does not work.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - [email protected]

"Leon" wrote in message

> Nope, not liable just like you are not liable if you sell your car and the
> new owner wrecks it. The owner is making the decision to buy your house
and
> has every opportunity to inspect or have it inspected before closing.
> Unless stipulations are noted, houses are sold "as is".

Except for "new" houses, at least in Texas.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06

"B A R R Y" wrote in message
> Swingman wrote:
>
> > you don't "need" a ground for the equipment to work.
>
> What if it's a dust collector?

No problem ... ground it to the jointer.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06

In article <[email protected]>, "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >
>> >Doug Miller wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Right, and wiring a 240V motor with three wires (two ungrounded
>conductors,
>> >> one groundING conductor, and NO groundED conductor) is the approved
>manner of
>> >> doing so.
>> >
>> >Wonder what the 3rd wire on a 220 outlet on a generator does? It isn't
>> >a 'ground' until you hammer in several feet of copper rod into the
>> >ground beside the generator..or am I just stirring shit?
>>
>> It's the neutral, as in tapped from the center of the transformer
>secondary,
>> same as the supply from the utility company. It's there so that you can
>run
>> 240 *and* 120 loads.
>>
>> Ground is the generator frame.
>>
>
>Only if you tie the generator frame to earth ground.
>
No, the generator frame is still equipment ground, whether or not it's tied to
earth ground. *Not* tying it to earth ground isn't good practice, but that
doesn't change the fact that it *is* equipment ground for the power produced
by the generator.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"resrfglc" <[email protected]> writes:
>Don't skimp. Do it "Right" the first time. Use 10/3 with ground and be safe;
>safer; ready for change, not sorry.

If he were to do it "right" the first time, he'd use 10/2 w/g.

>
>Also, the circuit can be used to pull a 110/120 outlet as well.

If you were to wire a separate 110v outlet from this (instead of
using a 4-pole receptacle), you'd be in violation of code, since
the breakers are handle-tied (which would prevent one from being
able to disconnect the 110v circuit without also disconnecting the
220v circuit).

>
>Do it to "code" and you will not be sorry.

While this is generally true; doing to the specific requirements
of your jurisdiction is better.

scott

"resrfglc" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:Udifh.4242$495.840@trnddc06...
> One other point: Insurance.
>
> If there's a fire, etc. and the investigation uncovers your home-brew
> cost-saving electrical work, your insurance company can simply deny your
> claim because you promised them you would never install electrical without
> a permit, licensed contractor and appropriate inspections.
>
> A missing neutral would be hard to disguise!
>

But if code doesn't require it and it isn't connected to anything...
What on earth is home-brew about it?

Don't skimp. Do it "Right" the first time. Use 10/3 with ground and be safe;
safer; ready for change, not sorry.

Also, the circuit can be used to pull a 110/120 outlet as well.

Do it to "code" and you will not be sorry.

I know the cost of wire is nuts nowadays, but the old rule "do it right the
first time" has proven itself may times over to be the best advice.


"Toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without
> neutrals?
> I am running a new circuit and would prefer to use 10/2 rather than 10/3;
> but sure don't want to do it twice.
>

In article <[email protected]>, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Robatoy" wrote in message
>>
>> Swingman wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > ... and joint that sumbitch while you're at it!
>> >
>>
>> Well, yeah... always joint everything. It is bad not to joint.
>>
>> I'm still trying to figure out if I want a left tilt or a right tilt
>> saw.
>
>Keep in mind that if you have a left tilt saw, you need a right tilt jointer
>to keep things complementary.
>
Is that still true in Australia?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

One other point: Insurance.

If there's a fire, etc. and the investigation uncovers your home-brew
cost-saving electrical work, your insurance company can simply deny your
claim because you promised them you would never install electrical without a
permit, licensed contractor and appropriate inspections.

A missing neutral would be hard to disguise!

"Toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without
> neutrals?
> I am running a new circuit and would prefer to use 10/2 rather than 10/3;
> but sure don't want to do it twice.
>

"Toller" wrote in message

>
> "resrfglc" wrote in message
>
> > One other point: Insurance.
> >
> > If there's a fire, etc. and the investigation uncovers your home-brew
> > cost-saving electrical work, your insurance company can simply deny your
> > claim because you promised them you would never install electrical
without
> > a permit, licensed contractor and appropriate inspections.
> >
> > A missing neutral would be hard to disguise!
> >
>
> But if code doesn't require it and it isn't connected to anything...
> What on earth is home-brew about it?

Hush now, and be a good wooddorker ... we're in the presence of superior
insurance/electrical dorkiness.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06

In article <[email protected]>, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Toller" wrote in message
>
>>
>> "resrfglc" wrote in message
>>
>> > One other point: Insurance.
>> >
>> > If there's a fire, etc. and the investigation uncovers your home-brew
>> > cost-saving electrical work, your insurance company can simply deny your
>> > claim because you promised them you would never install electrical
>without
>> > a permit, licensed contractor and appropriate inspections.
>> >
>> > A missing neutral would be hard to disguise!
>> >
>>
>> But if code doesn't require it and it isn't connected to anything...
>> What on earth is home-brew about it?
>
>Hush now, and be a good wooddorker ... we're in the presence of superior
>insurance/electrical dorkiness.
>
Chill out, Swingman. This may be a first -- me *defending* Toller's point of
view on an electrical issue -- but he's on perfectly solid ground here, and
"resrfglc" is out to lunch.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article <[email protected]>, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:

>However, do be VERY careful about colors ... when what is normally the
>neutral, (white) wire in the 10/2 w/G you mentioned, is used as one of the
>two current carrying wires in a 220/240 circuit, it should be taped/marked
>on BOTH ends, usually with black tape, to clearly indicate that is carrying
>current and is NOT a "neutral".

So here's a question for any electrical inspectors that may be listening in:
Code requires that any wire so marked must be "permanently reidentified....by
painting or other effective means". Is taping "permanent" or "effective"
enough? I usually use a permanent marker.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"DonkeyHody" wrote in message
>
> Toller wrote:
> > Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without
neutrals?
> > I am running a new circuit and would prefer to use 10/2 rather than
10/3;
> > but sure don't want to do it twice.
>
> I assume you are talking about 10/2 WITH GROUND. You don't need a
> neutral, but you definitely need a ground.

Now, if you can convince my framing and trim crews of that, who routinely
use two wires with NO plug to run their 220v equipment, my hat will be off
to you! ;)

And for the OP ... In the sense that 220/240 equipment will work without a
ground wire (just a hot from each leg is all that is "needed" to function),
you don't "need" a ground for the equipment to work.

BUT, and it's a BIG but, you will surely want to have a ground, if for
nothing else but code compliance and safety.

The neutral is not used for 220/240v unless the equipment needs 115v
internally for timers, lights, etc ... not something normally found in
woodworking shop equipment.

Now, we sit back and wait for the flames to start ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06

"clause where I promise to hire an electrician"

No, its not likely to be so clearly identifiable in the small print. But
they are rife with exculpation clauses. So is your mortgage agreement.
Basically, they are not insuring against your failure to do things properly,
follow the codes, etc.

I'll bet you have never read your insurance policy or mortgage agreement all
the way through. Not being a smart-ass here, but trying to make thepoint
that it is best to build in right and bulletproof the first time out for a
number of reasons not necessarily limited to insurance, liability and so
forth,

Let's leave it at: "If your house burned down as a result of an electrical
fire, would call you all the insurer and advise that you had installed the
suspected circuit?"


"Frank Boettcher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 16:12:02 GMT, "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without
>>neutrals?
>>I am running a new circuit and would prefer to use 10/2 rather than 10/3;
>>but sure don't want to do it twice.
>>
>
>
> If there are no 120 accessory items on the machine.
>
> However, as one who is at this very moment lamenting the fact that he
> did not plan ahead and pull what he should have pulled when he
> originally built his shop, and now to expand it will have to pull
> again, knowing it would have been just as easy and not much more cost
> to pull more than one would need, my advice in that area should be
> predictable (as I slap my head in dismay).
>
> But:
>
> You do not need a grounded conductor if you do not have any
> requirement for it on the machine.
>
> You DO need a grounding conductor. You're health and well being might
> require it. Additionally, you will negate the work of that fine
> individual(s) at the end of the assembly line who painstakenly checked
> each and every machine for complete ground continuity before it was
> shipped to you.
>
> In my area, the only requirement for a licensed electrician is at a
> service entrance set, and no permit is required to run a circuit
> inside your house.
>
> I don't know about your insurance policy, but mine does not have a
> clause where I promise to hire an electrician, disallowing the policy
> if I don't.
>
> Frank

Better you should ask a contingency-fee attorney. Of course its not the
"norm," but if you re-work your home's electrical service and sell it to
someone who dies in a fire blamed on your wiring, you can bet the attorney's
will be looking at the depth of your pockets.

And don't take legal advice from a real estate broker - they aren't even
allowed to write purchase and sale contracts!

All we (those of us urging prudence, code compliance and completeness) are
doing istryng to give OP the best advice possible. we are talking the
difference of less than twenty-cents per foot for a host of reasons the
least of which might well be his eventual liability exposure.

I grant you that the device will operate if he only pulls two blue twelve
gauge conductors across the room and staple them to the floor joists rather
than enclose them in EMT or the equivalent.

But I wouldn't do it that way nor advise another to take that minimalist
route to wire shop or home.



"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>
>>
>> And... who is liable for damages if there is a house fire? Here it
>> comes...
>> THE INSURANCE COMPANY. Please explain how the home owner is going to
>> liable
>> for wiring a saw with 10/2 with a ground? He's not. Even if he wires it
>> wrong and sells the house, he's not liable. Geeze...
>>
>
> That is correct. My insurance man filled me in on that and a real estate
> friend concurred.
>

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

<snip>
>
> You need a 3-phase power if your cutterhead on your jointer has 3
> blades.
>
> r
>
>

Oh what to do! I'm currently wrestling with my used right tilt Unisaw
that I recently upgraded to, but my black leads are going to the left
side screws on the 240volt receptacles. I'm afraid they must go to the
right side screw terminals, so I guess I have to get rid of it and get a
left tilt saw to match my wiring. By the way which is better left or
right tilt saws.

And now Rob says I need 3 phase power. The DJ-20 that BARRY made me aware
of says it is single phase on the motor, but it has three cutter heads.
If I upgrade to three phase power what happens if I then upgrade to a
spiral cutter head, will I need 60K power for all those multiple cutters?

And now I'm going to do my dust collection. So I have heavy walled
spiral pipe and fittings along with blast proof Kevlar hoses (yes I'm not
kidding .... but they were a freebie)but do I need to ground the bags on
the collector itself; after all they are only fabric and the dust in them
is not grounded. The complexity and danger of it all, good thing I read
the Wreck daily :)

Jerry

"Toller" wrote in message
>
> "resrfglc" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:9Cifh.1120$IO5.493@trnddc01...
> > "But if code doesn't require it and "
> >
> > CODES DO REQUIRE IT. Call your County Electrical Inspector. Or, better
> > yet, google National Fire & Electrical Codes or similar)
> >
> Cite a code section.
> If my county had inspectors, which they don't, what would I ask?
> "Uh, I have a circuit that doesn't need a neutral; in fact, I don't even
> have anything to attach it to. Do I need a neutral?"
> I presume they would tell me that if I don't need a neutral, I don't need
a
> neutral.

Don't believe it ... a neutral is NOT required for the 220/240 equipment
circuit that you are originally asking about.

However, do be VERY careful about colors ... when what is normally the
neutral, (white) wire in the 10/2 w/G you mentioned, is used as one of the
two current carrying wires in a 220/240 circuit, it should be taped/marked
on BOTH ends, usually with black tape, to clearly indicate that is carrying
current and is NOT a "neutral".

This is important, _is_ a violation of code if not done ... and may be a
source of the confusion.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06

Doug Miller wrote:
>
> Or, even worse, they'll fall out the wrong end.
>


Upside down electrons have reverse polarity!

> Chill out, Swingman. This may be a first -- me *defending* Toller's point
> of
> view on an electrical issue

Hey, you got something completely wrong a couple months ago, and I didn't
say a word.

In article <[email protected]>, "Andy Dingley <[email protected]>" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Doug Miller wrote:
>
>> >If you use multi-phase (i.e. three phase), then you don't need and
>> >don't use a neutral. There's just little point to it.
>>
>> Explain that a little further, if you would please. Here in the US, 3-phase
>> power *does* have a neutral. The voltage is (typically) 208V phase-to-phase,
>> and 120V phase-to-neutral.
>
>That's not a 3-phase system, it's a combination of 3-phase and single
>phase.

How do you figure that? The three phases are tapped off a rotary generator at
the power plant, 120 degrees apart, with the neutral as earth ground. Any one
of the three phases can be used separately, of course, but there's no
"combination" present.

>Only the single phase component needs the neutral to supply
>power,

Might be different in the UK, but there isn't a separate "single phase
component" in North American three-phase power distribution -- 120V devices
are powered by using any one of the three phases, and a neutral which is
bonded to earth ground.

208V devices use any two of the three phase conductors, or all three, and no
neutral.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article <[email protected]>, M Berger <[email protected]> wrote:
>Are either of them a good lawyer? You're not off the
>hook for negligence -- and knowing that you connected
>something not according to code might easily constitute
>negligence.

Can we p l e a s e get a grip here? Wiring a 240V table saw without a
neutral conductor is COMPLETELY CODE-COMPLIANT. Nothing wrong with the
practice whatsoever. There isn't even any place on a 240V table saw where you
can connect the damn neutral wire if you have one! 240V loads DO NOT need a
neutral.

[Above applies to North America]

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Swingman wrote:
> [snipped for brevity]
> >
> > Now, we sit back and wait for the flames to start ...
> >
>
> *smacking my forehead on my desk*
>
> OH NOES!!!, Not THIS farking topic again????
>
> As an EE, my philosophy is very simple: If you need to be asking
> questions like that, you shouldn't be screwing with it. And to even
> THINK about whether to use a ground or not is simply beyond me.
> I have seen accident reports and photographs come across my
> desk-------->>>220 can bite your ass big time, blow off a few fingers
> if you're really lucky and the juice doesn't go from one hand via your
> chest anywhere. That 220 will kill you.You will not be pining, you'll
> pass on. You will be no more. You will have ceased to be. Expired and
> gone to meet your maker. You'll be a stiff. Bereft of life, you'll rest
> in peace.........
>
> I think the stock answer, here in the Wreck, should be: "GET AN
> ELECTRICIAN!"
>
> And while the electrician is there, have him run some ground wires on
> your dust collector.
>
>
> ok..my bad..
>

Yes - your bad on this one. The OP stated 10/2. Can you even buy 10/2
without a ground anymore? Swing's story was about people on his job site,
not a reference to anything the OP posted.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

In article <[email protected]>, "Andy Dingley <[email protected]>" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Toller wrote:
>
>> Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without neutrals?
>
>Not in most of the World, that's for certain.
>
LOL! Good point. We know Toller's in the US, though.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Chris Friesen <[email protected]> wrote:

>Toller wrote:
>> Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without neutrals?
>> I am running a new circuit and would prefer to use 10/2 rather than 10/3;
>> but sure don't want to do it twice.
>
>Most doesn't need neutral. However, consider a 240V bandsaw with a 120V
>work-light on it. You could rig this up to run off a single plug, but
>you would need a neutral. (Basically the same scenario as an electric
>kitchen stove.)
>
>That said, it would probably be cheaper to run 10/2 and 14/2 and provide
>two receptacles rather than running 10/3.

Or, cheaper yet, buy a 240-volt bulb. That's what my bandsaw has, but
I've never replaced it--are they hard to find?
>
>Chris

--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

"bf" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Toller wrote:
> > Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without
neutrals?
> > I am running a new circuit and would prefer to use 10/2 rather than
10/3;
> > but sure don't want to do it twice.
>
> You can use 10/2... on most breaker boxes, the ground and white wire
> are connected to the same bus anyhow.. You only need 10/3 for something
> like a 4 prong dryer plug.
>

Not for 240V operation.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Doug Miller wrote:
>
> Does that make your meter spin backward, so the power company has to pay you?
>

That's it! The retirement program I've been looking for!

"Robatoy" wrote in message

> I think the stock answer, here in the Wreck, should be: "GET AN
> ELECTRICIAN!"
>
> And while the electrician is there, have him run some ground wires on
> your dust collector.
>
>
> ok..my bad..

... and joint that sumbitch while you're at it!

BTW, there is, or used to be, an "Electrical FAQ" posted here periodically
back in the much kinder, gentler days of the _real men wooddorkers_ of yore:

ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/news.answers/electrical-wiring/part1
ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/news.answers/electrical-wiring/part2

Don't know if it is still valid cuz one of the necessary qualifications for
the previously mentioned wooddorkers was having the (kinder, gentler) time
to read through it.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>
> The neutral is not used for 220/240v unless the equipment needs 115v
> internally for timers, lights, etc ... not something normally found in
> woodworking shop equipment.
>
> Now, we sit back and wait for the flames to start ...
>

Well - you know what they say - you just never know when you might want to
hook a clothes dryer up to that cabinet saw...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Are either of them a good lawyer? You're not off the
hook for negligence -- and knowing that you connected
something not according to code might easily constitute
negligence.

Leon wrote:
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> And... who is liable for damages if there is a house fire? Here it
>> comes...
>> THE INSURANCE COMPANY. Please explain how the home owner is going to
>> liable
>> for wiring a saw with 10/2 with a ground? He's not. Even if he wires it
>> wrong and sells the house, he's not liable. Geeze...
>>
>
> That is correct. My insurance man filled me in on that and a real estate
> friend concurred.
>
>

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Toller wrote:
>
>> Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without
>> neutrals?
>
> Not in most of the World, that's for certain.
>
Really? In countries where the base voltage, how many wires do they have?
I would think a hot, a grounded, and a grounding. What would a "neutral" be
used for?

On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 18:10:45 -0500, "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"resrfglc" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:txifh.4246$495.2153@trnddc06...
>
>>
>> If you "fix" your wiring to do otherwise, none of the safety measures
>> designed into the product may save your home or ass as intended.
>>
>> an your insurance is voided
>
>Wrong.
>
>> and your liability is (neighbor's house catches fire) is 100%.
>
>Wrong.


I think we may both be feeding the troll.

Frank

"Robatoy" wrote in message
>
> Swingman wrote:
>
> >
> > ... and joint that sumbitch while you're at it!
> >
>
> Well, yeah... always joint everything. It is bad not to joint.
>
> I'm still trying to figure out if I want a left tilt or a right tilt
> saw.

Keep in mind that if you have a left tilt saw, you need a right tilt jointer
to keep things complementary.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06

In article <[email protected]>, "Andy Dingley <[email protected]>" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Doug Miller wrote:
>
>> 120V devices
>> are powered by using any one of the three phases, and a neutral which is
>> bonded to earth ground.
>>
>> 208V devices use any two of the three phase conductors, or all three, and no
>> neutral.
>
>That's what I'm telling you. Both systems are wired through similar
>cabling, but the neutral only gets used when it's supplying a simgle
>phase device.

OK, we're on the same page now. You confused me with your reference to it as a
"combination" of 3-phase and single-phase -- that's not the way I see it.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article <[email protected]>, "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote:

>That is true here, but this particular thread is about the rest of the
>world. I thought their hots were 240v, but I could be wrong.

In much of the rest of the world, yes, that's right. Their 240V circuits are
wired analogously to our 120V circuits, just at a higher voltage.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article <9Cifh.1120$IO5.493@trnddc01>, "resrfglc" <[email protected]> wrote:
>"But if code doesn't require it and "
>
>CODES DO REQUIRE IT. Call your County Electrical Inspector. Or, better yet,
>google National Fire & Electrical Codes or similar)

Code DOES NOT require a neutral supplying a pure 240V load.

If you think it does... cite the relevant article.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article <[email protected]>, "Andy Dingley <[email protected]>" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Toller wrote:
>
>> Really? In countries where the base voltage, how many wires do they have?
>
>Same as anywhere else. It's not the voltage, it's the number of phases.
>
>If you use single phase (and "domestic" always does) then you need a
>neutral. This isn't because you "need" it as a consumer, just because
>it's the convenient way to tap a supply transformer for a single phase
>output.
>
>If you use multi-phase (i.e. three phase), then you don't need and
>don't use a neutral. There's just little point to it.

Explain that a little further, if you would please. Here in the US, 3-phase
power *does* have a neutral. The voltage is (typically) 208V phase-to-phase,
and 120V phase-to-neutral.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article <[email protected]>, B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote:
>Robatoy wrote:
>>
>> I'm still trying to figure out if I want a left tilt or a right tilt
>> saw.
>
>Important, as we want to ground the correct side. Otherwise, the
>electrons may not fit down the wire.

Or, even worse, they'll fall out the wrong end.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article <[email protected]>, "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without neutrals?

It's fair to say that all 240V equipment that doesn't also have 120V loads
doesn't need a neutral.

IME, big iron woodworking equipment consists, electrically, of a motor and a
switch.

240V motors don't need a neutral.

>I am running a new circuit and would prefer to use 10/2 rather than 10/3;
>but sure don't want to do it twice.

As long as 10ga wire, and a 30A breaker, are appropriate for the load, you're
good to go with 10/2 -- but consider that 10/3 would provide the ability to
add 120V receptacles later if you need them.

Another thought might be to pull three individual conductors (red, black, and
green) through conduit, instead of running cable. Then if you ever need a
neutral in the future, pull a white wire through too.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article <pgAfh.938$yZ4.219@trnddc05>, "resrfglc" <[email protected]> wrote:
>While one may wire a circuit for a specific tool, the circuit doesn't know
>hat. Not might others who subsequently own that circuit (as when they
>purchase the home).
>
>Circuits installed in homes are, therefore, just 110/120VAC or 220/240VAC
>circuits terminated with breakers and receptacles that would appear to
>indicate the design amperage but in no way indicate which "tool" the
>installer initially had in mind when adding the run out to the portion of
>the home the installer might have used for a workshop or sauna - who knows?

Equipment is typically provided by its manufacturer with a plug that is
appropriate to that equipment -- a plug which prevents connection of that
equipment to a receptacle that is not suitable.
>
>I bought a hoe that saw its share of homebrew re-wiring all of which may
>well have minimally served the installer at the moment but had seen adapted
>to serve uses beyond the limits a strict interpretation of the electrical
>codes I'd come across in dealing with several inspections and inspectors in
>South Florida over the years.

You'll excuse me, I'm sure, if I smile a little bit here, as your previous
posts don't indicate any degree of familiarity at all with the NEC, or indeed
with residential wiring practices in general.
>
>As I cannot find the NEC on-line (save in offers to sell me a copy for sixty
>bucks or so), I've been unable to find and cite the advice recalled from
>various and sundry wiring projects involving City Electrical Inspectors who
>were able to quote me the relevant code at the time.

Right here:
http://nfpa-acs-01.gvpi.net:8080/rrserver/browser?title=/NFPASTD/7005SB

Read to your heart's content, and try to back up the silly claims you've been
making.

>So, I may well be advocating over kill in insisting that OP consider running
>10/3 out to his shop to support a motor that only demands two hot conductors
>and an equipment ground to actually operate (indeed, will do so without
>running the equipment ground others have chimed in to support installing).

You didn't just insist that he "consider" it -- you insisted that it was
required by Code.

>Part of my issue, aside from exculpation clauses in insurance policies an
>the potential liability to a subsequent purchaser under law,

You haven't cited any of those, either.

> was the
>practical matter of expending the additional cash to cover the cost of the
>neutral conductor out to the intended outlet in anticipation of the one
>constant all reasonable wood workers can agree upon - change.
>
>As, if and when I can find the code book, I shall look up a residential
>240VAC circuit and report what I find verbatim

That won't be necessary -- simply citing the relevant article and section will
do, since all of us have the same access to it on-line that you do.

Again, the full 2005 NEC is at
http://nfpa-acs-01.gvpi.net:8080/rrserver/browser?title=/NFPASTD/7005SB

> (since no one else seems to
>have access to the code to do so not withstanding the ad hominid attacks in
>response to my prudent suggestions herein.

You haven't made any "prudent suggestions" -- just uninformed claims about
supposed Code requirements that do not in fact exist.
>
>So for those vociferous folks who would find me so fallible and my advice to
>go with 10/3 rather tan 10/2) so offensive, ignorant and objectionable as to
>warrant attacks on my credibility, intelligence and motives, let me agree to
>disagree an leave it there.

You've ruined your own credibility by making unfounded and erroneous claims
about phantom "requirements".

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Toller" wrote in message
>
> > Chill out, Swingman. This may be a first -- me *defending* Toller's
point
> > of
> > view on an electrical issue
>
> Hey, you got something completely wrong a couple months ago, and I didn't
> say a word.

Who said that??

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06

"resrfglc" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:9Cifh.1120$IO5.493@trnddc01...
> "But if code doesn't require it and "
>
> CODES DO REQUIRE IT. Call your County Electrical Inspector. Or, better
> yet, google National Fire & Electrical Codes or similar)
>
Cite a code section.
If my county had inspectors, which they don't, what would I ask?
"Uh, I have a circuit that doesn't need a neutral; in fact, I don't even
have anything to attach it to. Do I need a neutral?"
I presume they would tell me that if I don't need a neutral, I don't need a
neutral.

Robatoy wrote:

>>
> Have you ever tried to sweep those?
> The only thing that sweeps fallen electricals is an oscilloscoop.

I get a charge out of that!

On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 16:12:02 GMT, "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without neutrals?
>I am running a new circuit and would prefer to use 10/2 rather than 10/3;
>but sure don't want to do it twice.
>


If there are no 120 accessory items on the machine.

However, as one who is at this very moment lamenting the fact that he
did not plan ahead and pull what he should have pulled when he
originally built his shop, and now to expand it will have to pull
again, knowing it would have been just as easy and not much more cost
to pull more than one would need, my advice in that area should be
predictable (as I slap my head in dismay).

But:

You do not need a grounded conductor if you do not have any
requirement for it on the machine.

You DO need a grounding conductor. You're health and well being might
require it. Additionally, you will negate the work of that fine
individual(s) at the end of the assembly line who painstakenly checked
each and every machine for complete ground continuity before it was
shipped to you.

In my area, the only requirement for a licensed electrician is at a
service entrance set, and no permit is required to run a circuit
inside your house.

I don't know about your insurance policy, but mine does not have a
clause where I promise to hire an electrician, disallowing the policy
if I don't.

Frank

In article <[email protected]>, B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote:
>Swingman wrote:
>> "B A R R Y" wrote in message
>>> Swingman wrote:
>>>
>>>> you don't "need" a ground for the equipment to work.
>>> What if it's a dust collector?
>>
>> No problem ... ground it to the jointer.
>>
>
>
>What if I don't have a jointer?

Ground it to your planer sled.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Lee Michaels" wrote in message

> Maybe if you serve up some of that famous family gumbo and a few cold
> brewski's, we will just mellow right out!!

Easy for you to say ... it's hard to be mellow when you don't smoke or drink
beer any longer and you have to chop all those damn vegetables!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06

While one may wire a circuit for a specific tool, the circuit doesn't know
hat. Not might others who subsequently own that circuit (as when they
purchase the home).

Circuits installed in homes are, therefore, just 110/120VAC or 220/240VAC
circuits terminated with breakers and receptacles that would appear to
indicate the design amperage but in no way indicate which "tool" the
installer initially had in mind when adding the run out to the portion of
the home the installer might have used for a workshop or sauna - who knows?

I bought a hoe that saw its share of homebrew re-wiring all of which may
well have minimally served the installer at the moment but had seen adapted
to serve uses beyond the limits a strict interpretation of the electrical
codes I'd come across in dealing with several inspections and inspectors in
South Florida over the years.

As I cannot find the NEC on-line (save in offers to sell me a copy for sixty
bucks or so), I've been unable to find and cite the advice recalled from
various and sundry wiring projects involving City Electrical Inspectors who
were able to quote me the relevant code at the time.

So, I may well be advocating over kill in insisting that OP consider running
10/3 out to his shop to support a motor that only demands two hot conductors
and an equipment ground to actually operate (indeed, will do so without
running the equipment ground others have chimed in to support installing).

Part of my issue, aside from exculpation clauses in insurance policies an
the potential liability to a subsequent purchaser under law, was the
practical matter of expending the additional cash to cover the cost of the
neutral conductor out to the intended outlet in anticipation of the one
constant all reasonable wood workers can agree upon - change.

As, if and when I can find the code book, I shall look up a residential
240VAC circuit and report what I find verbatim (since no one else seems to
have access to the code to do so not withstanding the ad hominid attacks in
response to my prudent suggestions herein.

So for those vociferous folks who would find me so fallible and my advice to
go with 10/3 rather tan 10/2) so offensive, ignorant and objectionable as to
warrant attacks on my credibility, intelligence and motives, let me agree to
disagree an leave it there.

I must admit that the insurance and legal points made were a bit "out there"
in the sense that such cases seldom arise unless the loss of life is
significant and the pockets of the liable party are obviously deep.

But, in my defense, we were notified that the crack in the pane of the
window in our garage would result in the cancellation of our policy if not
corrected in two weeks! Good thing they had not inspected my electrical
wiring eh?

Before one blithely assumes he is "covered" by his homeowners, perhaps a
review of what happened to all those folks in Louisiana an the Gulf Coast
after the Hurricane. Disputes over whether rising water or wind-driven water
caused the damages with the majority of the insured walking away with little
or nothing despite their coverage. Talk about your exculpation clauses!

What if the motor of the intended device would operate upon two twelve's -
would that be OK as well?It would be less expensive.

I suspect the OP has long since abandoned reading this thread as I should
and will forthwith as my intent was not to antagonize those with as much
time on their hands as I but to offer well-intended advice to a fellow
carpenter the result of which could not be assailed as unsafe, dangerous,
nor imprudent only unnecessary.


"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "resrfglc" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:Tdifh.4241$495.1629@trnddc06...
>
>>
>> Do it to "code" and you will not be sorry.
>
> Please cite the code that calls for 10/3. Code is quite happy with 10/2.
> This is the second time you've referenced "code". Do you know what the
> code
> says?
>
>>
>> I know the cost of wire is nuts nowadays, but the old rule "do it right
> the
>> first time" has proven itself may times over to be the best advice.
>>
>
> And right would be 10/2.
>
> --
>
> -Mike-
> [email protected]
>
>

In article <Udifh.4242$495.840@trnddc06>, "resrfglc" <[email protected]> wrote:
>One other point: Insurance.
>
>If there's a fire, etc. and the investigation uncovers your home-brew
>cost-saving electrical work, your insurance company can simply deny your
>claim because you promised them you would never install electrical without a
>permit, licensed contractor and appropriate inspections.

This comes up about once a month, it seems, in alt.home.repair. So far,
nobody has been able to substantiate an instance of this actually happening.
Maybe you can be the first.

In any event, what he's proposing to do isn't hazardous in the least.
>
>A missing neutral would be hard to disguise!

He doesn't *need* a neutral for a 240V motor.
>
>"Toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without
>> neutrals?
>> I am running a new circuit and would prefer to use 10/2 rather than 10/3;
>> but sure don't want to do it twice.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 20:27:47 GMT, "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"resrfglc" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:txifh.4246$495.2153@trnddc06...
>> You are confusing physical and electrical "You only need 10/3 for
>> something like a 4 prong dryer plug. " and practice with CODE.
>>
>> The "GROUND (bare copper) is the mechanical ground. The White, neutral is
>> the Electrical ground.
>>
>> Remember, every electrical appliance or tool you purchase is designed and
>> built upon the assumption that it will be powered up in an APPROVED MANNER
>> that meets the Standard Electrical Code.
>>
>> If you "fix" your wiring to do otherwise, none of the safety measures
>> designed into the product may save your home or ass as intended.
>>
>> And the manufacturer escapes all liability an your insurance is voided and
>> your liability is (neighbor's house catches fire) is 100%.
>>
>> For this you want to save $23.00?
>>
>>
>I give up, what is a mechanical ground, as opposed to an electrical ground?
>And, since 240v machines only have three wires, what do you do with the
>extra wire in the supply?
>


A troll sir, meant to confuse.

A nuetral is a grounded conductor, required on that drier because it
has 120V circuits within it.

A ground is a grounding conductor, only used as a path back to ground
from any conducting point on your appliance, tool, etc. in the event
you have an electrical fault. It provides a path that, I'm sure you
will agree, is a better path to ground than through your carcass.

Frank

Robatoy wrote:
>ou will not be pining, you'll
> pass on. You will be no more. You will have ceased to be. Expired and
> gone to meet your maker. You'll be a stiff. Bereft of life, you'll rest
> in peace.........

And you won't even be a parrot.

In article <[email protected]>,
B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote:

> Robatoy wrote:
>
> >>
> > Have you ever tried to sweep those?
> > The only thing that sweeps fallen electricals is an oscilloscoop.
>
> I get a charge out of that!

Did you hear the one about the two atoms walking down the street? One says
to the other, "I think I lost an electron". "Are you sure?", asks the
other. "Yes, I'm positive".

If you don't know, why answer?
And, why answer twice?

"resrfglc" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:2Gifh.4634$bj5.2686@trnddc07...
> http://www.mikeholt.com/index.php?id=homegeneral
>
> Take the time to check this expert web site for a definitive answer
> [email protected] for e-mail questions.
>
>
> "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> Toller wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without
>>>> neutrals?
>>>
>>> Not in most of the World, that's for certain.
>>>
>> Really? In countries where the base voltage, how many wires do they
>> have?
>> I would think a hot, a grounded, and a grounding. What would a "neutral"
>> be used for?
>>
>
>

Good point. We don't know what may be connected down the road, neitherdoes
he. And, if the fire occurs to someone he sold the house to - guess who is
liable for damages?


"B A R R Y" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Swingman wrote:
>
>> you don't "need" a ground for the equipment to work.
>
> What if it's a dust collector?

In article <txifh.4246$495.2153@trnddc06>, "resrfglc" <[email protected]> wrote:
>You are confusing physical and electrical "You only need 10/3 for something
>like a 4 prong dryer plug. " and practice with CODE.
>
>The "GROUND (bare copper) is the mechanical ground. The White, neutral is
>the Electrical ground.

OK, fine -- show us where the Code requires a neutral conductor on a 240V
load.
>
>Remember, every electrical appliance or tool you purchase is designed and
>built upon the assumption that it will be powered up in an APPROVED MANNER
>that meets the Standard Electrical Code.

Right, and wiring a 240V motor with three wires (two ungrounded conductors,
one groundING conductor, and NO groundED conductor) is the approved manner of
doing so.

Don't think so? Think about this -- if you supply that groundED (neutral,
white) wire, what do you propose connecting it to?? There are only three
connections on a 240V motor: motor winding A, motor winding B, equipment
ground. Where does that neutral wire go?

No current will flow in that wire, connected or not. It's not needed
electrically, and it's not required by the NEC either. You think it is? Cite
the article of the Code that says so.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Nope, not at all. Go price the wire.

One should always run the most robust line one can afford and that can carry
the intended load and a bit more.

And one should always consider safety and follow Electrical Codes to the
letter.


"Chris Friesen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Toller wrote:
>> Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without
>> neutrals?
>> I am running a new circuit and would prefer to use 10/2 rather than 10/3;
>> but sure don't want to do it twice.
>
> Most doesn't need neutral. However, consider a 240V bandsaw with a 120V
> work-light on it. You could rig this up to run off a single plug, but you
> would need a neutral. (Basically the same scenario as an electric kitchen
> stove.)
>
> That said, it would probably be cheaper to run 10/2 and 14/2 and provide
> two receptacles rather than running 10/3.
>
> Chris

Why not simply re-wire the bulb socket to attach one side to the neutral and
run a 120VAC bulb?

Better than cursing the darkness, no?



"alexy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Chris Friesen <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Toller wrote:
>>> Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without
>>> neutrals?
>>> I am running a new circuit and would prefer to use 10/2 rather than
>>> 10/3;
>>> but sure don't want to do it twice.
>>
>>Most doesn't need neutral. However, consider a 240V bandsaw with a 120V
>>work-light on it. You could rig this up to run off a single plug, but
>>you would need a neutral. (Basically the same scenario as an electric
>>kitchen stove.)
>>
>>That said, it would probably be cheaper to run 10/2 and 14/2 and provide
>>two receptacles rather than running 10/3.
>
> Or, cheaper yet, buy a 240-volt bulb. That's what my bandsaw has, but
> I've never replaced it--are they hard to find?
>>
>>Chris
>
> --
> Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked
> infrequently.

You are confusing physical and electrical "You only need 10/3 for something
like a 4 prong dryer plug. " and practice with CODE.

The "GROUND (bare copper) is the mechanical ground. The White, neutral is
the Electrical ground.

Remember, every electrical appliance or tool you purchase is designed and
built upon the assumption that it will be powered up in an APPROVED MANNER
that meets the Standard Electrical Code.

If you "fix" your wiring to do otherwise, none of the safety measures
designed into the product may save your home or ass as intended.

And the manufacturer escapes all liability an your insurance is voided and
your liability is (neighbor's house catches fire) is 100%.

For this you want to save $23.00?


"bf" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Toller wrote:
>> Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without
>> neutrals?
>> I am running a new circuit and would prefer to use 10/2 rather than 10/3;
>> but sure don't want to do it twice.
>
> You can use 10/2... on most breaker boxes, the ground and white wire
> are connected to the same bus anyhow.. You only need 10/3 for something
> like a 4 prong dryer plug.
>