Sensitized to formaldehyde/need workbench

"HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>
>> Stay away from Harbor Freight for the C-Clamps and the Pipe Clamps,
>> but there bar clamps pass muster, especially when on sale.
>>
>
> What could possibly go wrong with a C-clamp?
>
>

I've never had any trouble with a HF C-Clamp. However, I work with
mainly pine and damage to the wood occurs before they reach their
breaking points. Like all HF tools, you are their quality control, so be
wary.

We had some extremely cheap ones that had a cap on the screw. The cap
would often fall off and the mechanism was terrible. They actually
gained value when thrown in the trash, cause now they're not worthless C-
clamps, they're garbage!

These days, I usually reach for an Irwin Quick Grip. The C-clamps are
good when I need more clamping pressure or want to drive something hard
in. When all you've got is C-clamps, they'll put nails in...

Puckdropper
--
"The potential difference between the top and bottom of a tree is the
reason why all trees have to be grounded..." -- Bored Borg on
rec.woodworking

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

"Bill" wrote:

> I'm not sure where Pop-A-Top actually started out, but where I used
> to
> hear it, when you heard it, the lights came on and that meant you
> had to leave...

Depending on the bar, it was "Good Night Ladies" or "They All Get
Better looking At Closing Time", depending on the clientelle.

> Thank you for the detailed directions! If I'm going to make a
> mountain out
> of a molehill I want to do it right! At this point, the idea of a
> 3"+ top is starting
> to make me drool.

If you really want to guild the lilly, knock out any knots and then
back fill proud with epoxy fairing putty, then sand when cured.

Do this before any glue-up work.

Lew

"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

*snip*

> BTW, I noticed Woodcraft has 2" thick granite surface plate (tool shop
> "A" grade)
> and a honing guide on sale this month. I intend to try the "scary
> sharp" sharpening
> technique. I have a new plane and a new set of chisels that have never
> been used.
>
*snip*
>
> http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2003114/576/Honing-Guide.aspx
>
> Please let me know whether you can vouch for this sharpening solution.
> I'll keep
> thinking about workbenches! :)
>
> Thanks,
> Bill

I've got something very similar, and it's useless. Maybe the Woodcraft
version would be better, but mine doesn't seem to lock down tight or
match the contour on the chisel (that's probably part of the problem.)

You might get better results cutting an angled piece of wood (I hear Skil
makes an angle finder ha ha), and applying a rare earth magnet to the
top. Then add a couple small wheels.

Puckdropper
--
"The potential difference between the top and bottom of a tree is the
reason why all trees have to be grounded..." -- Bored Borg on
rec.woodworking

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I learned a new word this week. Not only am I allergic to formaldehyde,
>but I'm "sensitized" to it--which
> means it doesn't take that much to get a reaction from my immune system. I
> can't even tolerate a two year
> old unfinished piece of plywood or particle board in my garage (that I've
> previously stored it in a shed for two years).
> The recent heat and humidity probably played a factor, but that's not the
> point.
>
> I just bought a house (with a garage) and I am now eager to build a
> workbench and build a few projects.
> I suspect I could probably build a workbench from some 2 by 4's or 4 by
> 4's. I'm not sure what to use for a top--maybe
> some "formaldehyde-free" plywood (I've never seen it in person, but I've
> heard it exists).
>
> Whatever I put on top, I want to mound my medium size engineers bench vise
> on it for general usage--which
> means I want a bench that will hold things while I beat them with a hammer
> from time-to-time--ideally
> without the bench moving or other things flying off the bench. Maybe part
> of the trick there is to load up a bottom shelf, I'm not
> sure.
>
> I have the book, "Build Your Own Custom Workbench" by Mark Corke, and on
> page 111, he builds a 7-foot
> "traditional workbench" using 2" thick maple boards for the top, and 7/8"
> thich poplar for everything else, but there
> are no lower shelves, drawers, or anything like that. I thought poplar
> was a "light" wood?--too light to support the
> hammering I mentioned above? I'm just thinking...
>
> I would be grateful if anyone could provide me any advice or suggestions
> about what type of construction materials
> I might use for a workbench or any other comments that may be useful to
> me. I've waited a long time to
> have a workshop/garage as I moved from my parents house about 30 years ago
> and have been an apartment dweller until this month.
> It surely makes sense to invest some serious thought into my new
> workbench. At least I have more patience now
> than I did 30 years ago--I suspect my work will be the better for it! :)
>

http://www.grizzly.com/products/category.aspx?key=360100

"Bill" wrote:

> Lew,
>
> So it would start out at 1 1/2 inches thick (before flattening).
> Will that be adequate
> for a 7' by 30" top (I realize there are other variables, and I'm
> planning a 3' section
> in the middle which will have to deal with gravity on its own...)?

You are making a mountain out of a mole hill<G>.

1) Start with a 2x8 and sand one side with some 100 grit.

2) Rip 2x8 approximately in half.

3) Glue and clamp sanded faces together with factory edge down for
registration (Alternate clamps up/down).

4) Repeat above to make 10 sets for a 30" wide bench.

5) Repeat process above making 5 sets, gluing sanded faces together.

6) Repeat process making one set 18" wide and one set 12" wide, gluing
sanded faces together.

7) Repeat process to form 30" wide top, gluing sanded faces together..

8) Head to the drum sanding shop and end up with 30" Wide x 73" long x
3-1/2" finished top ready for final trim.

9) Return home, Pop-A-Top, maybe 2-3, and enjoy the fruits of your
labor.

Question for the CW folks:

Where did the phrase "Pop-A-Top" come from?

Lew

"Bill" wrote:
> That's an inspiring story. After you glued all of the pieces
> together, did you hand plane the surface or use a belt sander, or
> something else? I suspect you used quite a few clamps. Is using
> clamps on both sides enough to keep all of the pieces in place?
> This is practically a good enough reason for me to consider buying a
> jointer (which I assume is capable of doing the planing you
> mentioned above). Sorry for the novice questions.

If you want to eat a steer, you have to cut him up in little pieces
first.

Same principle applies to building a bench top.

Say you want to build a 72" x 24" top using 2x8x10 ft stock.

1) Cross cut 8 pieces, 2x8x73 saving cutoffs for table leg structure.

2) Rip 73 long board approximately in half, turn one piece end for end
and gluing together with TiteBond II with factory edge down.

You are limited by how many clamps you have as to how fast you
complete this process.

Trick is to rip and glue as quickly as possible to minimize any
possible twist.

Continue until you have eight (8) sub assemblies.

The next step is optional, the inclusion of 3/8-16x 22" long, all
thread bolts in the top. (Not req'd IMHO, if you do a proper glue up.)

3) Glue up a pair of 2x4s to form a group of four (4) 2x4 sub
assemblies.

Repeat process until you have four (4) sub assemblies.

4) Glue up a pair of remaining 2x4 assemblies to form a group of eight
(8) 2x4s.

Repeat process until you have two (2) sub assemblies.

5) Glue up final pair of 2x4 assemblies to form the completed top.

6) Time to load top in vehicle and head to the commercial drum sander
to level out top.

For less than $30 you will have a flat top.

Sure beats screwing around with a belt sander IMHO.

Finally trim top to 72" finished length and get started on the base.

Have fun.

Lew

On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 06:08:30 -0400, "Bill" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"Rick Samuel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> They might use urea formaldehyde glue. Better to make your own using
>> carpenter's (yellow) glue or PVA (white) glue.
>>
>> Luigi
>>
>> Just what I did, got a bunch of SYP 2x10's, ripped them to 2.3 inches,
>> jointed and planed, then glued 'um up. Larger pieces of SYP many times
>> are almost clear, few small knots, none were loose.
>> Yeah, not a "traditional" workbench, price is right and stout. I pined
>> all the M&T joints in the legs, with 3/4 dowels, offset 1/64-1/32, pulled
>> up tight.
>>
>
>That's an inspiring story. After you glued all of the pieces together, did
>you hand plane the surface or use a belt sander, or something else? I
>suspect you used quite a few clamps. Is using clamps on both sides enough
>to keep all of the pieces in place? This is practically a good enough
>reason for me to consider buying a jointer (which I assume is capable of
>doing the planing you mentioned above). Sorry for the novice questions.
>
>Bill
>
>
Drill all the parts before you glue them together - pass a length of
allthread through each set of holes and tighten the nuts. No external
clamps required. If you like you can put another peice over the end of
the althread, or better yet counterbore the outer boards and put plugs
in on the "front" side to hide the fasteners. The workbench will NEVER
split.

"Bill" wrote:

> If I understand the instructions for the workbench top, I would need
> about 10 bar clamps at least 32" in size or pipe clamps. Could you
> briefly explain why I will need SO MANY C-clamps (or were you just
> trying to make the point about how inordinately expensive a jointer
> would be)? I'll try to keep reading and learning.

Clamps create a source of point loading.

What you need for a glue-up is uniform loading.

The more clamps, the closer they are spaced.

The closer the clamp spacing, the more uniform the loading at the glue
surface will be and the lower the individual clamp pressure needs to
be.

As I said before, clamps are like sex, there is no such thing as too
many<grin>.

Lew

"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Bill" wrote:
>>
>>> A gallon of epoxy covering from Lowes is about $60 and is supposed to
>>> cover 250 square
>>> feet.
>>
>> Cold day in hell when you can buy a gallon of epoxy for $60, closer to
>> $100.
>
>
> I guess this is what I was looking at the other day (or something very
> similar to it):
>
> http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=288556-4-002.0051730.007
>
>
> It might be adequate for my current needs. At this point, I just want to
> stand on and look at a clean floor rather than a very grimey one. I'm not
> planning to show it off on tv or anything. :)
>
> Bill
>
>
>
>


This may interest you: - something I came across recently.

There is a forum at Garagejournal.com with a thread describing contributors
experiences with Quikcrete epoxy kits from Lowes. Cost seems to be around
$65 per kit to cover around 250 sq ft. Thread starter describes the whole
process including floor grinding, with photo's.
General consensus seems to be that it performs well.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33702

diggerop

"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Bill" wrote:
>
>> A gallon of epoxy covering from Lowes is about $60 and is supposed to
>> cover 250 square
>> feet.
>
> Cold day in hell when you can buy a gallon of epoxy for $60, closer to
> $100.
>
> I don't know what those people are smoking, but it is good stuff.


These guys must be on some sensational stuff : )

Aero Marine Products in San Diego
300/1 1 Gallon Kit - Total yield of 1 Gallon of epoxy
Consists of 1/2 Gallon of #300 resin and 1/2 Gallon of #11 Hardener
Price: $46 per kit

diggerop

"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>> Bill | 2009-08-14 | 5:37:28 AM wrote:
>>
>>>My garage floor is badly stained too--from trans fluids, paint
>>>stains, and who knows what...
>>>I've heard there are some good options
>>>painting the floor (epoxy-related)--I haven't learned yet how much
>>>prep they require.
>>
>
>
> "SteveBell" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>> Yes, some of the floor products are good, but the good ones are very
>> expensive, and the ones you buy at the big-box stores aren't the good
>> ones. All of them need a good, clean surface to bond to, so you'll
>> spend tons of time cleaning the concrete beforehand. You might even
>> have to rent a concrete grinder. Before you make up your mind what to
>> do, look at options like rubber tiles and roll coverings.
>>
>> --
>> Steve Bell
>> New Life Home Improvement
>> Arlington, TX USA
>
> I called a fellow (Indiana): $2000 to prep and surface my two car garage
> with
> something claimed to be 4 times as strong as epoxy. He said the prep
> (concrete grinder)
> is the expensive part when I said that I don't need to have it look like
> an auto
> showroom--that I mainly was interested that it be cleaned.
>
> Since then, I learned that I can locally rent a big gas or electric
> concrete grinder for $95/day (I
> will call to find out if I should expect other expenses such as grinding
> disks).
>
> A gallon of epoxy covering from Lowes is about $60 and is supposed to
> cover 250 square
> feet. My garage is 450 square feet, so I'll need two gallons. If this
> sort of product is only
> "good", then what other coverings might you recommend ? Epoxy "Paint"
> seems
> more desirable to me than rubber tiles or roll coverings.
>
> Any thoughts welcome of course.
>
> Bill
>

Good advice from Steve.

There are two essential rules to consider when applying epoxy; -

Rule 1/. Surface Preparation is Critical
Rule 2/. See Rule 1

The following links appear to provide a good starting point on the process.

http://www.epoxyproducts.com/prep.html

http://www.epoxyproducts.com/beginfloor4u.html

http://www.epoxyproducts.com/slab4u.html

diggerop

"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "diggerop" wrote:
>
>> These guys must be on some sensational stuff : )
>>
>> Aero Marine Products in San Diego
>> 300/1 1 Gallon Kit - Total yield of 1 Gallon of epoxy
>> Consists of 1/2 Gallon of #300 resin and 1/2 Gallon of #11 Hardener
>> Price: $46 per kit
>
>
> $46 is for a gallon of casting resin(red)
>
> Doesn't appear to package a gallon kit for laminating(green), but 1-1/2
> gallon is $74 which is ($49+/gal) still pretty good for small quantity.
>
> Lew
>
>
>

I'm being pedantic, I know, ..... however,


Casting resin (white polymer) is even cheaper - $79 for 2 gal - which
equates to $39.50/gal

From their site:

AeroMarine Casting Resin is a thin, fast setting polymer used for casting
parts for many applications. It features a simple “one to one” mix ratio. It
contains no fillers, has no odor, and cures to an off-white color. Colorants
are available, and this product is easily painted.

RED SYSTEM: AeroMarine 300/11 epoxy is a simple, non-critical 1:1 by volume
mix. It has a 45 minute work life, 24 hour cure, and is a medium syrup
viscosity. Used for bonding, great for concrete repair, and general
woodworking applications. It is widely used by people building boats,
airplanes, r/c models, etc. ($46/gal)

diggerop

On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 08:09:19 -0500, "HeyBub" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>
>> Stay away from Harbor Freight for the C-Clamps and the Pipe Clamps,
>> but there bar clamps pass muster, especially when on sale.
>>
>
>What could possibly go wrong with a C-clamp?
>

Try one made in the USA. Then try one made in China. The one made in
China slipped off my work and is a rough screw.

On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 06:21:10 -0400, "Bill" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I learned a new word this week. Not only am I allergic to formaldehyde, but
>I'm "sensitized" to it--which
...

>Thanks,
>Bill
>

Hey Bill, I built my (large) workbench from 2x4s. After 18 years it
is banged up, stained, gouged, etc. From time to time I use a belt
sander on it to clean it up a little.

I know about formaldehyde. Once I worked in a new building and
several of us got headaches every day from the outgassing of man-made
materials (particleboard, carpeting, chairs, ceiling tiles, glues,
etc.) You can "age" ply in the garage for 3-4 months, but I would not
recommned it if allergic.

On Aug 11, 3:08=A0am, "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Rick Samuel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > They might use urea formaldehyde glue. Better to make your own using
> > carpenter's (yellow) glue or PVA (white) glue.
>
> > Luigi
>
> > Just what I did, got a bunch of SYP 2x10's, ripped them to 2.3 inches,
> > jointed and planed, then glued 'um up. =A0Larger pieces of SYP many tim=
es
> > are almost clear, few small knots, none were loose.
> > Yeah, not a "traditional" workbench, price is right and stout. =A0I pin=
ed
> > all the M&T joints in the legs, with 3/4 dowels, offset 1/64-1/32, pull=
ed
> > up tight.
>
> That's an inspiring story. After you glued all of the pieces together, di=
d
> you hand plane the surface or use a belt sander, or something else? =A0I
> suspect you used quite a few clamps. =A0 Is using clamps on both sides en=
ough
> to keep all of the pieces in place? =A0This is practically a good enough
> reason for me to consider buying a jointer (which I assume is capable of
> doing the planing you mentioned above). =A0Sorry for the novice questions=
.
>
> Bill

I made mine out of clear Douglas fir 2X6s, ripped in half, jointed &
then planed. Glued it all together using pipe clamps. But it did not
come out perfect, so I scrub planed one side, ripped the whole
assembly in half on the table saw & ran it through my planer. Then I
glued the two halves back together, then added 2"X2" birch to each
side. Before that, I had previously cut 3/4" dadoes for dog holes in
one of the two halves and on the birch.

Flattened it all with a #7 Stanley jointer and applied linseed oil.

Luigi

Bill wrote:
> I learned a new word this week. Not only am I allergic to
> formaldehyde, but I'm "sensitized" to it--which
> means it doesn't take that much to get a reaction from my immune
> system. I can't even tolerate a two year
> old unfinished piece of plywood or particle board in my garage (that
> I've previously stored it in a shed for two years).
> The recent heat and humidity probably played a factor, but that's not
> the point.
>
> I just bought a house (with a garage) and I am now eager to build a
> workbench and build a few projects.
> I suspect I could probably build a workbench from some 2 by 4's or 4
> by 4's. I'm not sure what to use for a top--maybe
> some "formaldehyde-free" plywood (I've never seen it in person, but
> I've heard it exists).
>
> Whatever I put on top, I want to mound my medium size engineers bench
> vise on it for general usage--which
> means I want a bench that will hold things while I beat them with a
> hammer from time-to-time--ideally
> without the bench moving or other things flying off the bench. Maybe
> part of the trick there is to load up a bottom shelf, I'm not
> sure.
>
> I have the book, "Build Your Own Custom Workbench" by Mark Corke, and
> on page 111, he builds a 7-foot
> "traditional workbench" using 2" thick maple boards for the top, and
> 7/8" thich poplar for everything else, but there
> are no lower shelves, drawers, or anything like that. I thought
> poplar was a "light" wood?--too light to support the
> hammering I mentioned above? I'm just thinking...
>
> I would be grateful if anyone could provide me any advice or
> suggestions about what type of construction materials
> I might use for a workbench or any other comments that may be useful
> to me. I've waited a long time to
> have a workshop/garage as I moved from my parents house about 30
> years ago and have been an apartment dweller until this month.
> It surely makes sense to invest some serious thought into my new
> workbench. At least I have more patience now
> than I did 30 years ago--I suspect my work will be the better for it!
> :)

Can't you get shots?

"diggerop" wrote:

> These guys must be on some sensational stuff : )
>
> Aero Marine Products in San Diego
> 300/1 1 Gallon Kit - Total yield of 1 Gallon of epoxy
> Consists of 1/2 Gallon of #300 resin and 1/2 Gallon of #11 Hardener
> Price: $46 per kit


$46 is for a gallon of casting resin(red)

Doesn't appear to package a gallon kit for laminating(green), but
1-1/2 gallon is $74 which is ($49+/gal) still pretty good for small
quantity.

Lew

Bill wrote:
> I learned a new word this week. Not only am I allergic to formaldehyde, but
> I'm "sensitized" to it--which
> means it doesn't take that much to get a reaction from my immune system. I
> can't even tolerate a two year
> old unfinished piece of plywood or particle board in my garage (that I've
> previously stored it in a shed for two years).

There is urea formaldehyde free plywood available and it may be easier
to find than you think.

Anything from Columbia Forest Products, one of Home Depots biggest
suppliers (and their exclusive hardwood plywood supplier in some areas),
is formaldehyde free plywood, so start at the BORG.

Here lately in our area, BORG hardwood plywood is often better than some
A-1 ply you'll find at twice the price in a lumber yard or hardwood
dealer, you just have to shop around and know the difference ... and it
runs in shipment cycles so you need to stay on top of it.

... and I buy a good deal of plywood. :)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

I am interested in developing skills
> in luthiery (e.g. setting up the bridge or sound post on a fiddle) and
> perhaps eventually
> building a whole instrument or three. I'll start small :)


A related note:

The absolutely coolest special-purpose workbench I have seen was at a
luthier.

It had adjustible posts with pads that to which you could strap an iregular
(carved back) guitar. This allowed hin to secure the guitar for things like
dressing frets.

The really cool feature was that the whole top could pivot along it's long
axis so that rotate the guitar into playing position (to test it) without
unsecuring it from the bench top.

-Steve

"Bill" wrote:

> I just requested it from my library.

It's a great book and very informative in a down to earth way.

> Part of my intent was to not have to ask so many questions to the
> group. I expect that after I look at the book, any questions that I
> have will be better ones.

Better than what?

You have had some very good questions.

> I hope for an early 2010 assembly. I've got a co-project of
> patching, painting and cleaning my garage/"workshop to be" with a
> concrete grinder--never used one of those before, but they evidently
> rent them in town at $95/day! :)

Sounds like a total PITA project.

> Based on your last message, I need to plan on buying a few more pipe
> clamps too (12)...

A suggested new project, a 4x8 general purpose table which I found to
be absolutely indispensable,

Start by building a 4x8 frame with doubled (sistered) 2x6 and 2x6
interior studs on 24" centers.

(Basically looks like stud wall when complete)

Cut 4, 2x6x32" pieces for legs.

Cut gusset plates about 18"x24" from 1/2 CDX ply.
(8 Req'd)

You want these to be triangular in shape along one edge so if you are
careful with your layout, you will save a little ply.

These ply gussets get sandwiched between the 2x6 legs and 2x6 table
top(stud wall).

As Norm would say, "Time for a little assembly".

Attach gusset plates to stud wall with glue and deck screws, then
attach legs to gusset plates with more glue and deck screws.

Use some 1x4 for diagonal braces to keep legs in place.

Next cover table top with doubled 4x8x1/2 ply.

(I used 1/2" CDX.)

Plug any voids in surface ply with filler, sand smooth, then paint.

I used one of these for 10 years. Kept it outside and covered with a
silver tarp.

Wouldn't have been able to work without it.

(Your Planer fits very well when you want to use it, at least mine
did)

Have fun.

Lew

> I would be grateful if anyone could provide me any advice or suggestions
> about what type of construction materials
> I might use for a workbench or any other comments that may be useful to
> me.

This is an excellent book:

http://www.amazon.com/Workbench-Book-Craftsmans-Workbenches-Woodworking/dp/1561582700

I think it's appropriate for you because it covers a wide variety of
approaches the topic of "workbench" ... from traditional european to
Japanese to conteporary plywood designs... even a chaper on the ubiquitous
"Workmate".

A great book book if you're not sure what type of bench to build. And by
"bench", I mean, loosely defined, shop work surface.

That said, I have arguably 4 "workbenches" in my shop. Different
shapes/designs and materials work better for differnt operations.

For instance my TS outfeed table is made from a sheet of melamine. It's
totally inappropriate as a "pounding surface" but it makes a fantastic
assembly table and finishing space because it is flat, I can get in three
sides of it and neither glue nor finishes stick to it.

A single bench is just about never good at everything. It really depends on
what you want to do with it.

Regards,

Steve

"Bill" wrote:

> From what I have read, paint does not prevent outgassing of
> formaldehyde--but there
> are sealants that do. I am currently sitting at a Sauder computer
> desk I assembled in 1997
> which gives me no problems now. It did in 1997, but I was less
> sensitive at that time.

Once you asre sensitized, you are basically screwed.

Just trying to see if there were any work arounds that produced a
result you could live with.


Lew

"alexy" wrote:


> Some have
> suggested taking it to a commercial shop to get the top finished on
> their wide belt sander. That would be a lot easier than doing the
> rough flattening with planes (as I did). But I don't see how that
> process could make it flat (if that is important to you). Maybe
> someone who has used that approach could address that.

Typical drum sander has three, 48" wide, sanding drums, about 12"-15"
diameter, each driven by a 20-25HP motor with coarse, medium and fine
drums.

Operates much the same as a planer taking off the high spots about
1/64"-1/32" per pass.

You definitely end up with a flat surface.

Lew

----------------------------------------------------
diggerop wrote:
> http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33702
--------------------------------------------------------
"Bill" wrote:

> Thank you for posting this, diggerop.
>
> That must be what I found at Lowes site the other day because the
> price and the square footage is about the same. What do you think
> of the result, Lew (I don't have other results to compare it to, but
> I think it looks pretty good)?

What is being described is a catalyzed resin system, which is what it
should be if epoxy based.

I must admit, I'm prejudiced.

One look at that concrete grinder brought back memories of many years
ago behind the business end of a floor sander while in college.

I swore I'd never do it again.

The secret of doing a coating like this will be the surface prep.

I'm sure that will include a muriatic acid etch followed by a
neutralization wash.

As far as life is concerned, 8 months doesn't impress me.

A couple of years on a garage floor in the rust belt where salt laden
snow drops off the car when you park it inside at night is a more
realistic test IMHO.

I also painted my brand new garage floor subjected to conditions like
that.

Lasted about a year.

When it comes to concrete coatings, I'm wary of any DIY process.

YMMV

Lew

"Bill" wrote:

> Wood being unstable, I'm thinking that that these pieces may not lie
> together as nicely as one would like.

One of the reasons you only glue one joint at a time.

> I was thinking of using 6 pipe clamps for this (and all) of the
> glueing. It seems like one could take advantage of the "factory
> edge down" guidance to assist here.

You are goinjg to want to alternate clamps (One up, one down) to keep
things in line.

Plan on a dozen clamps.

>Especially since, by the time everything is glued together, the
>errors could be added together 8 times.

Not if you follow my glue-up schedule I gave you.

> Is the plan to just sand away all uneven-ness with the commercial
> drum sander later?

Yep.

> I've got a 9" and 14" planes now and a 12.5" bench planer. I could
> put the glued 8" wide by 73" pieces through my bench planer and glue
> them after that--maybe there is no significant advantage though,
> huh, since the 8" wide by 73" pieces probably each have their own
> character (deviations from true-ness). I'd like to think I might
> finish the jobs with the hand planes, but I'll see what you folks
> think first. I hope to complete 2 benches along with a shelf or
> two for them.

Don't send a boy to do a man's job.

You will end up fiddle f**king with those hand tools forever and
probably still won't be happy.

$30 spent for drum sander time is the best $30 you will spend on this
project.

Have fun.

Lew

"Bill" wrote:

> Remember where this thread started...I've not had luck being around
> fresh plywood at all. I do need to draw up a design for my bench
> (es) though.

To answer your question, "yes", but I forgot.

Can you paint the stuff or is just being on the same planet with it a
problem?

Lew

Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
> Stay away from Harbor Freight for the C-Clamps and the Pipe Clamps,
> but there bar clamps pass muster, especially when on sale.
>

What could possibly go wrong with a C-clamp?

"Bill" wrote:

> I've been thinking about the pipe for the pipe clamps.
>
> I assume that "black steel 3/4, schedule 40" is the right type.
>
> I was thinking 24 to 28 two foot pieces would be about right, so
> that
> using couplets, that would allow me to have 12 to 14 four-foot
> clamps

> I know someone who can thread the pipe for me if I buy unthreaded
> pipe--but where? What is a good source for this pipe?
>
> I've been scrounging around the Internet, so I'm not idealess, but I
> still would like to hear your ideas.

48" pipe is a good length.

These days there are speciality firms that make pipe nipples all day
long.

Find a plumbing supply house and get a quote on 3/4" Sch 40, black,
48" Lg, threaded nipples.

Throw in a 3/4" coupling for each nipple and you are good to go.

Have fun.

Lew

On Aug 12, 11:48=A0am, Just Wondering <[email protected]> wrote:
> Doug Miller wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>, "HeyBub" <=
[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Lew Hodgett wrote:
> >>> Stay away from Harbor Freight for the C-Clamps and the Pipe Clamps,
> >>> but there bar clamps pass muster, especially when on sale.
>
> >> What could possibly go wrong with a C-clamp?
>
> > Steel too soft, frame bends when tightened. BTDT.
>
> The working end falls off the tightening screw.

I've had these things happen to me when I bought cheap clamps (from
local hardware stores and not from Harbor Fright): C-clamps bending,
the foot falling off, pipe clamp ends with no thread (I returned
those), pipe clamps that slip when tightened.

The moral of the story is: don't buy cheap Chinese clamps, no matter
where.

Luigi

PS I learned that the working end was called a foot here on the wreck
when I called it a thingie.

Doug Miller wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, "HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>> Stay away from Harbor Freight for the C-Clamps and the Pipe Clamps,
>>> but there bar clamps pass muster, especially when on sale.
>>>
>> What could possibly go wrong with a C-clamp?
>
> Steel too soft, frame bends when tightened. BTDT.

The working end falls off the tightening screw.

On Aug 10, 5:32=A0am, "Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*[email protected]>
wrote:
> "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> >I learned a new word this week. =A0Not only am I allergic to formaldehyd=
e,
> >but I'm "sensitized" to it--which
> > means it doesn't take that much to get a reaction from my immune system=
. I
> > can't even tolerate a two year
> > old unfinished piece of plywood or particle board in my garage (that I'=
ve
> > previously stored it in a shed for two years).
> > The recent heat and humidity probably played a factor, but that's not t=
he
> > point.

> http://www.grizzly.com/products/category.aspx?key=3D360100

They might use urea formaldehyde glue. Better to make your own using
carpenter's (yellow) glue or PVA (white) glue.

Luigi

> If you want to eat a steer, you have to cut him up in little pieces first.

You've obviously never seen *me* eat. <grin>
--


Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/AutoDrill

V8013-R

"Bill" wrote:

> I guess this is what I was looking at the other day (or something
> very similar to it):
>
> http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=288556-4-002.0051730.007
>
>
> It might be adequate for my current needs.

Water based, one part epoxy, $27.88/gal.

Dream on.

If you think this is going to do your job, we should talk about some
swamp land over in Arizona.<G>

Cleaning up and sealing a concrete slab is a lot of work and it won't
be cheap.

IMHO, you have two choices, do it first class or stay at home.

There are no coach fares on this one.

Lew

Bill wrote:
> I learned a new word this week. Not only am I allergic to
> formaldehyde, but I'm "sensitized" to it--which
> means it doesn't take that much to get a reaction from my immune
> system. I can't even tolerate a two year
> old unfinished piece of plywood or particle board in my garage (that
> I've previously stored it in a shed for two years).
> The recent heat and humidity probably played a factor, but that's not
> the point.
>
> I just bought a house (with a garage) and I am now eager to build a
> workbench and build a few projects.
> I suspect I could probably build a workbench from some 2 by 4's or 4
> by 4's. I'm not sure what to use for a top--maybe
> some "formaldehyde-free" plywood (I've never seen it in person, but
> I've heard it exists).
>
> Whatever I put on top, I want to mound my medium size engineers bench
> vise on it for general usage--which
> means I want a bench that will hold things while I beat them with a
> hammer from time-to-time--ideally
> without the bench moving or other things flying off the bench. Maybe
> part of the trick there is to load up a bottom shelf, I'm not
> sure.
>
> I have the book, "Build Your Own Custom Workbench" by Mark Corke, and
> on page 111, he builds a 7-foot
> "traditional workbench" using 2" thick maple boards for the top, and
> 7/8" thich poplar for everything else, but there
> are no lower shelves, drawers, or anything like that. I thought
> poplar was a "light" wood?--too light to support the
> hammering I mentioned above? I'm just thinking...
>
> I would be grateful if anyone could provide me any advice or
> suggestions about what type of construction materials
> I might use for a workbench or any other comments that may be useful
> to me. I've waited a long time to
> have a workshop/garage as I moved from my parents house about 30
> years ago and have been an apartment dweller until this month.
> It surely makes sense to invest some serious thought into my new
> workbench. At least I have more patience now
> than I did 30 years ago--I suspect my work will be the better for it!
> :)
>
> Sorry for writing so much....

Sensitization sucks--one of the best painters at Enormous Aerospace where I
used to work walked into the plant one day, picked up the same spray gun he
had been using every day for 20 years, puffed up like a balloon, and had to
be rushed to the hospital. He couldn't even come into the plant anymore
after that.

A club I belong to has a rule on all club functions--NO STRAWBERRIES--one of
the founder members walked into a party one time and keeled over--turned out
that there were strawberries just sitting in a bowl and unbeknownst to him
he had become sensitized--he didn't even touch them, they got him from
across the room--and we'd rather have him than the strawberries.

What kind of projects do you want to do? If you're talking furniture
crafting or cabinetry then you need a flat top somewhere for a reference
surface--on the other hand a machinists vise sticking up will get in the way
of that kind of use. If you're looking for a mechanic's bench throwing
something together from 2x4 and 2x6s should work fine. If you want it to be
immobile then fasten a 2x4 cleat to the studs on the wall and fasten one
side of the benchtop to that--it's not going to go anywhere unless you
manage to knock the building down.

Ideally if you're doing both mechanical and woodworking projects you want
both anyway--no matter how careful you are you're going to get metal chips
and oil and whatnot on the mechanicking bench and using it for woodworking
will result in the chips scratching your finish and oil and grease getting
onto the unfinished wood.

First of all, any non-manufactured material will be formaldehyde free.
So, any sort of lumber will do ya. For the banging part, you could use
a small anvil, depending on how uch you're banging away. If all you need
is a sturdy bench that won't move, weight is the key -- and you're right,
loading up shelves will work fine.

There is a new book on bulding and designing workbenches which I think is
just right for your purposes -- shows a large variety of options, and
discusses lumber selection in detail. It's by Chris Schwarz, and there's
a good review here:

http://thewoodwhisperer.com/workbenches-by-chris-schwarz-book-review/


Anoher option to consider is the following. Woodcraft sells metal pieces
for worktables and benches; you pick the lengths you want and they bolt
together. You then fill in the top and shelf area with
(in my case) plywood or MDF, but you'd need something else. I built a very
solid general-purpose bench/table with these parts and have been very
pleased with its rigidity. It's mae by Rpusseau, and here is the link:

http://www.woodcraft.com/Family/2020346/2020346.aspx

(I bet an industrial supplier, like Grainger or MSC, would have similar
things in a larger range of sizes.)

For shelves and top, you could try to source formaldehyde-free MDF or
plywood -- I know it exists, but you should call a large lumber supplier
to find out how to get your hands on it (look under "lumber" and
"hardwoods" in the yellow pages).

Or, you can glue up pieces of regular lumber to make a wide top, and if
needed, get a local cabinet shop to sand it flat for you on their
ginormous drum sander.

Or, you can buy a premade maple benchtop slab, like this one:
http://www.woodcraft.com/Family/2005134/2005134.aspx

Similar products are available from a varity of woodworking and industrial
suppliers.

This is a solvable problem, and you'll have many happy years of
woodworking ahead!

-- Andy Barss


Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
: I learned a new word this week. Not only am I allergic to formaldehyde, but
: I'm "sensitized" to it--which
: means it doesn't take that much to get a reaction from my immune system. I
: can't even tolerate a two year
: old unfinished piece of plywood or particle board in my garage (that I've
: previously stored it in a shed for two years).
: The recent heat and humidity probably played a factor, but that's not the
: point.

: I just bought a house (with a garage) and I am now eager to build a
: workbench and build a few projects.
: I suspect I could probably build a workbench from some 2 by 4's or 4 by 4's.
: I'm not sure what to use for a top--maybe
: some "formaldehyde-free" plywood (I've never seen it in person, but I've
: heard it exists).

: Whatever I put on top, I want to mound my medium size engineers bench vise
: on it for general usage--which
: means I want a bench that will hold things while I beat them with a hammer
: from time-to-time--ideally
: without the bench moving or other things flying off the bench. Maybe part
: of the trick there is to load up a bottom shelf, I'm not
: sure.

: I have the book, "Build Your Own Custom Workbench" by Mark Corke, and on
: page 111, he builds a 7-foot
: "traditional workbench" using 2" thick maple boards for the top, and 7/8"
: thich poplar for everything else, but there
: are no lower shelves, drawers, or anything like that. I thought poplar was
: a "light" wood?--too light to support the
: hammering I mentioned above? I'm just thinking...

: I would be grateful if anyone could provide me any advice or suggestions
: about what type of construction materials
: I might use for a workbench or any other comments that may be useful to me.
: I've waited a long time to
: have a workshop/garage as I moved from my parents house about 30 years ago
: and have been an apartment dweller until this month.
: It surely makes sense to invest some serious thought into my new workbench.
: At least I have more patience now
: than I did 30 years ago--I suspect my work will be the better for it! :)

: Sorry for writing so much....

: Thanks,
: Bill



--
<o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o>
Andy Barss
Department of Linguistics, University of Arizona
Communications 114A, 626-3284
<o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o><o>

"Phisherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 06:21:10 -0400, "Bill" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>I learned a new word this week. Not only am I allergic to formaldehyde,
>>but
>>I'm "sensitized" to it--which
> ...
>
>>Thanks,
>>Bill
>>
>
> Hey Bill, I built my (large) workbench from 2x4s. After 18 years it
> is banged up, stained, gouged, etc. From time to time I use a belt
> sander on it to clean it up a little.
>
> I know about formaldehyde. Once I worked in a new building and
> several of us got headaches every day from the outgassing of man-made
> materials (particleboard, carpeting, chairs, ceiling tiles, glues,
> etc.) You can "age" ply in the garage for 3-4 months, but I would not
> recommned it if allergic.



Thank you for all of the thoughtful suggestions. Since I grew up with
one workbench, I hadn't considered having more than one, but that's makes
more sense--one to "fix mechanical things or open a can of paint" on
and one to pursue woodworking on. I am interested in developing skills
in luthiery (e.g. setting up the bridge or sound post on a fiddle) and
perhaps eventually
building a whole instrument or three. I'll start small :) It hadn't
really thought about
how oil from one project could really muck-up woodwork in the other.
I'm going to review all of the books and materials that were recommended.
I'm always grateful for your thoughts and suggestions!

BTW, I noticed Woodcraft has 2" thick granite surface plate (tool shop "A"
grade)
and a honing guide on sale this month. I intend to try the "scary sharp"
sharpening
technique. I have a new plane and a new set of chisels that have never been
used.

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2004864/7535/Granite-Surface-Plate.aspx

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2003114/576/Honing-Guide.aspx

Please let me know whether you can vouch for this sharpening solution. I'll
keep
thinking about workbenches! :)

Thanks,
Bill

> Can't you get shots?

Nope, I asked.

They might use urea formaldehyde glue. Better to make your own using
carpenter's (yellow) glue or PVA (white) glue.

Luigi

Just what I did, got a bunch of SYP 2x10's, ripped them to 2.3 inches,
jointed and planed, then glued 'um up. Larger pieces of SYP many times are
almost clear, few small knots, none were loose.
Yeah, not a "traditional" workbench, price is right and stout. I pined all
the M&T joints in the legs, with 3/4 dowels, offset 1/64-1/32, pulled up
tight.

"Rick Samuel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> They might use urea formaldehyde glue. Better to make your own using
> carpenter's (yellow) glue or PVA (white) glue.
>
> Luigi
>
> Just what I did, got a bunch of SYP 2x10's, ripped them to 2.3 inches,
> jointed and planed, then glued 'um up. Larger pieces of SYP many times
> are almost clear, few small knots, none were loose.
> Yeah, not a "traditional" workbench, price is right and stout. I pined
> all the M&T joints in the legs, with 3/4 dowels, offset 1/64-1/32, pulled
> up tight.
>

That's an inspiring story. After you glued all of the pieces together, did
you hand plane the surface or use a belt sander, or something else? I
suspect you used quite a few clamps. Is using clamps on both sides enough
to keep all of the pieces in place? This is practically a good enough
reason for me to consider buying a jointer (which I assume is capable of
doing the planing you mentioned above). Sorry for the novice questions.

Bill

"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote:


>That's an inspiring story. After you glued all of the pieces together, did
>you hand plane the surface or use a belt sander, or something else? I
>suspect you used quite a few clamps. Is using clamps on both sides enough
>to keep all of the pieces in place? This is practically a good enough
>reason for me to consider buying a jointer (which I assume is capable of
>doing the planing you mentioned above). Sorry for the novice questions.

Bill, I'm with several others here. I built mine out of SYP. Very
heavy and stable. After a couple of years, I planed the top, thinking
the wood had probably moved and I would be reflattening it. Not so! I
merely removed some shallow scratches, and when I saw I was taking
uniform thin shavings, decided that I wouldn't take the chance of
messing up a good thing going after a few errant chisel marks.

If you have a jointer and planer, it can make stock prep for the
glue-up MUCH easier, but unless you have an aircraft carrier size
jointer, you will not flatten the finished bench with that. Some have
suggested taking it to a commercial shop to get the top finished on
their wide belt sander. That would be a lot easier than doing the
rough flattening with planes (as I did). But I don't see how that
process could make it flat (if that is important to you). Maybe
someone who has used that approach could address that. After the final
flattening of my bench with my #8, it is nowhere convex, and concavity
is on the order of 0.001" per foot. Specifically, anywhere on my top,
I can only fit a 0.002" to 0.005" feeler gage under the center of a
four foot straightedge.
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Bill" wrote:
>> That's an inspiring story. After you glued all of the pieces together,
>> did you hand plane the surface or use a belt sander, or something else?
>> I suspect you used quite a few clamps. Is using clamps on both sides
>> enough to keep all of the pieces in place? This is practically a good
>> enough reason for me to consider buying a jointer (which I assume is
>> capable of doing the planing you mentioned above). Sorry for the novice
>> questions.
>
> If you want to eat a steer, you have to cut him up in little pieces first.
>
> Same principle applies to building a bench top.
>
> Say you want to build a 72" x 24" top using 2x8x10 ft stock.
>
> 1) Cross cut 8 pieces, 2x8x73 saving cutoffs for table leg structure.
>
> 2) Rip 73 long board approximately in half, turn one piece end for end and
> gluing together with TiteBond II with factory edge down.
>
> You are limited by how many clamps you have as to how fast you complete
> this process.
...


I understand your directions. I'll need a table saw and a jointer (I already
had plans to buy a table saw, in any event). How many bar clamps should one
use to properly glue the 73" boards, and what type might you recommend for
someone who doesn't have any? Having been an apartment dweller, most of the
tools I have now fit in a couple of tool boxes. This is beginning to sound
like a great first project, or second, project! I think I'll eek out a
birdfeeder first to get a feel for these tools... Thanks for all of your
help! While I'm collecting tools, and determining out how much money I'll
need, I'll be reading up on workbenches. I've requested Scott Landis'
Workbench Book from the library. I suppose much of the "secret" is to read
the right books. I've been focusing on luthiery for a couple of months, I no
doubt need to consult some "practical" ones.

Thanks,
Bill

"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Bill" wrote:
>
> > I understand your directions. I'll need a table saw and a jointer
> (I already
>> had plans to buy a table saw, in any event). How many bar clamps should
>> one use to properly glue the 73" boards, and what type might you
>> recommend for someone who doesn't have any?
>
> T/S, yes.
>
> BTW, you don't buy a T/S, you buy the fence that goes on the T/S.
>
> IMHO, the Delta Unifence is tough to beat.
>
> Jointer, not yet.
>
> A table top planer will be far more useful than a jointer and with a
> simple jig you can use the T/S to create straight glue lines, thus no
> jointer needed.
>
> Clamps are like sex, you can never have too many.


If I understand the instructions for the workbench top, I would need about
10 bar clamps at least 32" in size or pipe clamps. Could you briefly
explain why I will need SO MANY C-clamps (or were you just trying to make
the point about how inordinately expensive a jointer would be)? I'll try to
keep reading and learning.

Thanks,
Bill

"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Bill" wrote:
>
>> If I understand the instructions for the workbench top, I would need
>> about 10 bar clamps at least 32" in size or pipe clamps. Could you
>> briefly explain why I will need SO MANY C-clamps (or were you just trying
>> to make the point about how inordinately expensive a jointer would be)?
>> I'll try to keep reading and learning.
>
> Clamps create a source of point loading.
>
> What you need for a glue-up is uniform loading.
>
> The more clamps, the closer they are spaced.
>
> The closer the clamp spacing, the more uniform the loading at the glue
> surface will be and the lower the individual clamp pressure needs to be.
>
> As I said before, clamps are like sex, there is no such thing as too
> many<grin>.

Violin makers often make their own clamps with two small disks of wood, with
a bolt several inches long, going through the two disks, and an elbow nut.
The work is of course clamped between the two disks. I think they may use 30
or so at once. Before today, I thought that was alot! :)

Thinking about tools (including jigs and fixtures) is great, no? It seems
to stimulate the mind in a satisfying way. I know that I don't know that
much, but I feel good when I learn something new. I know that the first
part of my previous statement is true because, as a brand new homeowner, I
am encountering alot of how much I don't know lately... :)

When you use a whole bunch of clamps in a row, say like when making the
benchtop, it seems like putting an extra board under a row of clamps would
distribute that "point loading" into more uniform loading. Maybe it depends
on the strength of the board? Still it seems like 1 clamp per foot is a
reasonable minimum.

Bill

"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:l1qgm.1674
>
> Jointer, not yet.
>
> A table top planer will be far more useful than a jointer and with a
> simple jig you can use the T/S to create straight glue lines, thus no
> jointer needed.


I found that jig here (I think) in case another reader is interested
http://eberhardt.bz/GME_Wood_Land/GME_Woodworking_Stuff/1_Jigs_Tools/6_Tablesaw_Jigs.pdf

Bill

In article <[email protected]>, "HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>
>> Stay away from Harbor Freight for the C-Clamps and the Pipe Clamps,
>> but there bar clamps pass muster, especially when on sale.
>>
>
>What could possibly go wrong with a C-clamp?

Steel too soft, frame bends when tightened. BTDT.

HeyBub wrote:
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>
>> Stay away from Harbor Freight for the C-Clamps and the Pipe Clamps,
>> but there bar clamps pass muster, especially when on sale.
>>
>
> What could possibly go wrong with a C-clamp?

Two things--1: It bends. 2: The surface of the screw is bad enough that
it can't be tightened properly.

Just Wondering wrote:
> Doug Miller wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> "HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>>> Stay away from Harbor Freight for the C-Clamps and the Pipe Clamps,
>>>> but there bar clamps pass muster, especially when on sale.
>>>>
>>> What could possibly go wrong with a C-clamp?
>>
>> Steel too soft, frame bends when tightened. BTDT.
>
> The working end falls off the tightening screw.

In honesty, I've seen that happen on MIL-SPEC clamps. They'd seen forty
years of hard service and been through a couple of wars when it happened but
. . .

"StephenM" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>>
>> When you use a whole bunch of clamps in a row, say like when making the
>> benchtop, it seems like putting an extra board under a row of clamps
>> would distribute that "point loading" into more uniform loading.
>
> that's absolutely correct... you get it.
>
>> Still it seems like 1 clamp per foot is a reasonable minimum.
>
> Draw 2 lines at 45 degrees from the direction of clamping. This will
> define the area where you will get good clamping pressure. If you clam 2
> 6" boards together that will suggest clamps every 12 inches. If the boards
> are only 2 inches wide, optimally, you would want clamps every 4 inches.
>
> -Steve

This seems reasonable, but how did you decide on 45 degrees? I don't doubt
that it's a good rule of thumb, I was just trying to make sense of it.
Maybe the angle should be larger on hard boards and smaller on lighter ones?

Bill

"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> Stay away from Harbor Freight for the C-Clamps and the Pipe Clamps, but
> there bar clamps pass muster, especially when on sale.
>
>
...
> Have fun.
>
> Lew
>
>
>


Thanks Lew!

I didn't realize how valuable the suggestion above was when I first read it,
but
I visited WoodCraft today and I also was emailed come coupons from Harbor
Freight today.

The price of a large bar clamp is about $40.00 at WC versus $4.99 on sale
at HF, and I need a few more than several...

I'm not saying that they are the same exact product (at all), but HF makes
buying a lot of bar clamps feasible
for me.

Bill

Bill wrote:
> "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> Stay away from Harbor Freight for the C-Clamps and the Pipe Clamps, but
>> there bar clamps pass muster, especially when on sale.
>>
>>
> ....
>> Have fun.
>>
>> Lew
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> Thanks Lew!
>
> I didn't realize how valuable the suggestion above was when I first read it,
> but
> I visited WoodCraft today and I also was emailed come coupons from Harbor
> Freight today.
>
> The price of a large bar clamp is about $40.00 at WC versus $4.99 on sale
> at HF, and I need a few more than several...
>
> I'm not saying that they are the same exact product (at all), but HF makes
> buying a lot of bar clamps feasible
> for me.
>
> Bill
>
>
>

Well, there are bar clamps and then there are bar clamps. I bought a
bunch at Lee Valley a year or so ago, and thought I'd scored an
incredible deal. 12 24" clamps for $75. I don't regret buying them, but
it wasn't near the deal I thought it was. Light gage aluminum and it's
showing its age already because I bear down on them a bit too much.

Like many here, I'd recommend starting off with some pipe clamps at
first. 12", 24" and 36" to start, with maybe a couple of 4' thrown in.
If you're on a budget, that's an excellent way to begin the addiction of
clamp buying.

The thing about pipe clamps is that small nuculear bombs won't damage
them, and they suffer through a fair amount of abuse. They're heavy, and
that's a bit of a disadvantage, but you'll never regret having them.

Tanus

"Tanus" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:h62bo0$as1>

> Well, there are bar clamps and then there are bar clamps. I bought a bunch
> at Lee Valley a year or so ago, and thought I'd scored an incredible deal.
> 12 24" clamps for $75. I don't regret buying them, but it wasn't near the
> deal I thought it was. Light gage aluminum and it's showing its age
> already because I bear down on them a bit too much.
>
> Like many here, I'd recommend starting off with some pipe clamps at first.
> 12", 24" and 36" to start, with maybe a couple of 4' thrown in. If you're
> on a budget, that's an excellent way to begin the addiction of clamp
> buying.
>
> The thing about pipe clamps is that small nuculear bombs won't damage
> them, and they suffer through a fair amount of abuse. They're heavy, and
> that's a bit of a disadvantage, but you'll never regret having them.
>
> Tanus

Your points are well taken. I was just thinking that it's too bad my new
next door neighbor is not a woodworker, then we could share clamps, but, he
is a plumber (and a nice guy too)! Maybe he knows where to get pipes? :)
I can see I have a bit more homework to do.

My garage floor is badly stained too--from trans fluids, paint stains, and
who knows what. And the previous owned did a lot of welding in the garage,
so there is light "soot" around. Does anyone here know if I can hose down a
stucco ceiling (with unpainted plastered walls), before I give it a paint
job, or if should I just use a sponge and detergeant)? I've heard there are
some good options painting the floor (epoxy-related)--I haven't learned yet
how much prep they require.

Tanus, I haven't begun the addiction to clamp-buying yet, but the number of
work bench tops and "shelves" I want to make increases the longer I think
about design! And I expect for one set of clamps to suffice for the
construction of all of them! :) I want my workshop to reflect
my acquired respect for the crafts I am learning. People oft say the TS is
the center of the workshop, but for me I think it's the workbench.

One quesiton that occurred to me is whether the glued Southern Yellow Pine
is up to the task of supporting a machinist vise, with the pounding that
goes along with it? I suppose it is, I just wanted to double check.

Sorry for so many questions.. BTW, I bought a 9" x 12" x 2" granite
surface plate today (on sale from WoodCraft for $20). It's supposed to be
accurate to .0001". It is satisfyingly Very Heavy. Maybe I'll store it in
the base of my workbench for stability. Two or three more and one might
regard a bench as immobile! :)

Cheers,
Bill

Bill | 2009-08-14 | 5:37:28 AM wrote:

>My garage floor is badly stained too--from trans fluids, paint
>stains, and who knows what. And the previous owned did a lot of
>welding in the garage, so there is light "soot" around. Does anyone
>here know if I can hose down a stucco ceiling (with unpainted
>plastered walls), before I give it a paint job, or if should I just
>use a sponge and detergeant)?

If it's a real stucco coat, you can get it pretty wet without worry. If
it's wallboard mud with sand in it that *looks* like stucco, you'll be
depending on the paint to protect the mud. Most wallboard mud dissolves
in water.

>I've heard there are some good options
>painting the floor (epoxy-related)--I haven't learned yet how much
>prep they require.

Yes, some of the floor products are good, but the good ones are very
expensive, and the ones you buy at the big-box stores aren't the good
ones. All of them need a good, clean surface to bond to, so you'll
spend tons of time cleaning the concrete beforehand. You might even
have to rent a concrete grinder. Before you make up your mind what to
do, look at options like rubber tiles and roll coverings.

--
Steve Bell
New Life Home Improvement
Arlington, TX USA

"SteveBell" <[email protected]> wrote in message >
> Yes, some of the floor products are good, but the good ones are very
> expensive, and the ones you buy at the big-box stores aren't the good
> ones. All of them need a good, clean surface to bond to, so you'll
> spend tons of time cleaning the concrete beforehand. You might even
> have to rent a concrete grinder. Before you make up your mind what to
> do, look at options like rubber tiles and roll coverings.
>

Thank you, I certainly will!
Bill

> "SteveBell" <[email protected]> wrote in message >
>> Yes, some of the floor products are good, but the good ones are very
>> expensive, and the ones you buy at the big-box stores aren't the good
>> ones. All of them need a good, clean surface to bond to, so you'll
>> spend tons of time cleaning the concrete beforehand. You might even
>> have to rent a concrete grinder. Before you make up your mind what to
>> do, look at options like rubber tiles and roll coverings.

Steve, thanks you for sharing your ideas. I just looked at some of these,
and I started wondering how SAFE they are for a workshop. Should people be
walking around a table saw or bandsaw on rubber tiles or roll coverings (I'm
just playing devil's advocate)?

I am also not crazy about the idea of worrying that whether I drop a 2 by 4
on the floor might hurt my floor covering...

I"m not sure what I will do, but more than one person has suggested the
"epoxy paint" technology to me. I will explore the options you mentioned.

Bill

Bill wrote:
> I learned a new word this week. Not only am I allergic to formaldehyde, but
> I'm "sensitized" to it--which
> means it doesn't take that much to get a reaction from my immune system. I
> can't even tolerate a two year
> old unfinished piece of plywood or particle board in my garage (that I've
> previously stored it in a shed for two years).
> The recent heat and humidity probably played a factor, but that's not the
> point.
...

IANAD (instead of the usual L :) ) but I'd wonder at least some about
formaldehyde being the irritant given the description--I'd think by that
time any outgassing has long since ceased and the more likely allergen
being molds/dust/etc. from the storage in a shed unless it was a
controlled environment which I'd gather it probably wasn't.

Just a thought...

--

Bill | 2009-08-14 | 5:17:01 PM wrote:

>
>>"SteveBell" <[email protected]> wrote in message >
>>>Yes, some of the floor products are good, but the good ones are
>>>very expensive, and the ones you buy at the big-box stores aren't
>>>the good ones. All of them need a good, clean surface to bond to,
>>>so you'll spend tons of time cleaning the concrete beforehand.
>>>You might even have to rent a concrete grinder. Before you make
>>>up your mind what to do, look at options like rubber tiles and
>>>roll coverings.
>
>Steve, thanks you for sharing your ideas. I just looked at some of
>these, and I started wondering how SAFE they are for a workshop.
>Should people be walking around a table saw or bandsaw on rubber
>tiles or roll coverings (I'm just playing devil's advocate)?
>
>I am also not crazy about the idea of worrying that whether I drop a
>2 by 4 on the floor might hurt my floor covering...
>
>I"m not sure what I will do, but more than one person has suggested
>the "epoxy paint" technology to me. I will explore the options you
>mentioned.

Those are good questions. I've seen rubber/carpet mats in lots of
factory settings for slip avoidance, and I've seen ads for "comfort"
mats that look like heavy-duty foam rubber.

As an aside, I quoted a guy $750 to apply a Sherwin-Williams two-part
epoxy garage floor paint (with sprinkles) to a new two-car garage. I
didn't get the job, because he thought I was too high, but all the
painters I talked to said I was too low. Even though it was a new
floor, never been parked on, it would require chemical cleaning and
power washing; then apply the paint (and sprinkles); then apply the
clear sealer. At least three trips for me, and it could easily turn
into two days or more if something about the floor was odd.

If you go with epoxy, don't scrimp on the cleaning. I've seen too many
floors that peeled.

--
Steve Bell
New Life Home Improvement
Arlington, TX USA

"dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Bill wrote:
>> I learned a new word this week. Not only am I allergic to formaldehyde,
>> but I'm "sensitized" to it--which
>> means it doesn't take that much to get a reaction from my immune system.
>> I can't even tolerate a two year
>> old unfinished piece of plywood or particle board in my garage (that I've
>> previously stored it in a shed for two years).
>> The recent heat and humidity probably played a factor, but that's not the
>> point.
> ...
>
> IANAD (instead of the usual L :) ) but I'd wonder at least some about
> formaldehyde being the irritant given the description--I'd think by that
> time any outgassing has long since ceased and the more likely allergen
> being molds/dust/etc. from the storage in a shed unless it was a
> controlled environment which I'd gather it probably wasn't.
>
> Just a thought...
>


Well, I feel pretty confident formaldehyde is a problem. The items I
previously mentioned were in a somewhat controlled environment --it was in
an outdoor "closet" attached to our apartment-which I loosely referred to
previously as a shed. Evidently the melamine and plywood hadn't outgassed
enough (nothing made with formaldehyde ever outgasses completely). I
haven't had trouble being around old pieces of plywood, like those in the
small barn I have now. I experienced some shortness of breath in school
working with watered down formaldehyde 30 years ago (no dust there).

I bought a Sauder bookshelf, put it in my office and it made me sweat like a
mad man (I have numerous lesser and similar examples like that, with other
brands of prefab furniture). When I walk into the Mennards or Home Depot, I
can "smell" the formaldehyde and I leave the stores with a shortness of
breath that last for at least a half hour. This "experiment" has been
repeated at least a dozen times. I visited Lowes successfully several
times, but on my last trip I walked through their "wood" area -- and bam,
same thing. Am also allergic to artificial sweeteners, most processed foods
(extracts--malt extract, yeast extract), anything with MSG, fermented foods
(such as sour-dough bread), and foods that are cooked too long (they release
"free glutamates"), and air fresheners. The number of places I can eat out
is extremely limited. Two of my worst reactions allergic occurred after I
hand-sanded a piece of melamine--and on a different day, the edges of a
piece of plywood.

IANAD either, but not a week passes that research and experiments on this
topic are not "forced" on me. Like when I use a bathroom that only has
antibacterial soap...(yep).

It is conceivable that that some other chemicial in the glues besides
formaldehyde is affecting me. But, for all practical purposes, what's the
difference?

What's really worse is that period when you don't know what food additive
you have to avoid... Things got serious for me at age 39 (I think the
chemicals were always irritants, but I could ignore the symtoms well enough
until then).

Bill

"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> Am also allergic to artificial sweeteners, most processed foods
> (extracts--malt extract, yeast extract), anything with MSG, fermented
> foods (such as sour-dough bread), and foods that are cooked too long (they
> release "free glutamates"), and air fresheners. The number of places I can
> eat out is extremely limited. Two of my worst reactions allergic occurred
> after I hand-sanded a piece of melamine--and on a different day, the edges
> of a piece of plywood.


If you've followed this thread, then I thought you might enjoy hearing about
a brief conversation that my wife and I had today.

We were out driving around shopping, and knowing she had, I asked my wife if
she had seen the SawStop advertisement where the saw stops when it cuts into
a hotdog....

I mentioned that the salesperson at WoodCraft thought that they were a good
idea and I asked her if she thought is would be worth $1000 or so for me to
buy a saw with the the Saw Stop safety feature.

Without missing a beat, she said, "You can't even eat hotdogs!". :)


Bill

"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:0ykgm.1617
> Same principle applies to building a bench top.
>
> Say you want to build a 72" x 24" top using 2x8x10 ft stock.
>
> 1) Cross cut 8 pieces, 2x8x73 saving cutoffs for table leg structure.
>
> 2) Rip 73 long board approximately in half, turn one piece end for end and
> gluing together with TiteBond II with factory edge down.


Wood being unstable, I'm thinking that that these pieces may not lie
together as nicely as one would like. I was thinking of using 6 pipe clamps
for this (and all) of the glueing. It seems like one could take advantage
of the "factory edge down" guidance to assist here. Especially since, by
the time everything is glued together, the errors could be added together 8
times. Is the plan to just sand away all uneven-ness with the commercial
drum sander later? I've got a 9" and 14" planes now and a 12.5" bench
planer. I could put the glued 8" wide by 73" pieces through my bench planer
and glue them after that--maybe there is no significant advantage though,
huh, since the 8" wide by 73" pieces probably each have their own character
(deviations from true-ness). I'd like to think I might finish the jobs
with the hand planes, but I'll see what you folks think first. I hope to
complete 2 benches along with a shelf or two for them.

By the way, I saw that Lowes has 3/4" pipe clamps for just over $15--best
price I've seen.



>
> You are limited by how many clamps you have as to how fast you complete
> this process.
>
> Trick is to rip and glue as quickly as possible to minimize any possible
> twist.
>
> Continue until you have eight (8) sub assemblies.
>
> The next step is optional, the inclusion of 3/8-16x 22" long, all thread
> bolts in the top. (Not req'd IMHO, if you do a proper glue up.)
>
> 3) Glue up a pair of 2x4s to form a group of four (4) 2x4 sub assemblies.
>
> Repeat process until you have four (4) sub assemblies.
>
> 4) Glue up a pair of remaining 2x4 assemblies to form a group of eight (8)
> 2x4s.
>
> Repeat process until you have two (2) sub assemblies.
>
> 5) Glue up final pair of 2x4 assemblies to form the completed top.
>
> 6) Time to load top in vehicle and head to the commercial drum sander to
> level out top.
>
> For less than $30 you will have a flat top.
>
> Sure beats screwing around with a belt sander IMHO.
>
> Finally trim top to 72" finished length and get started on the base.
>
> Have fun.
>
> Lew
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:Nonjm.125

> You will end up fiddle f**king with those hand tools forever and probably
> still won't be happy.
>
> $30 spent for drum sander time is the best $30 you will spend on this
> project.
>
> Have fun.
>
> Lew


Lew, Thank you for answering my questions!

Anyone, Please let me know if you would suggest a book or two that I might
find useful. I've begun reading Scott Landis', "The Workbench Book", but I
would also be interested in a good one that describes fundamental techniques
(such as clamping). It's easy to see, in retrospect, why alternating clamps
may be helpful here, but I don't think I would have considered alternating
them unless my dry glue-up failed. I've read some, but I realize I have a
great deal to learn... I think the fun is in the journey.

Bill

"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Bill" wrote:
>
>> Anyone, Please let me know if you would suggest a book or two that I
>> might find useful.
>
> Fred Bingham's book, "Boat Joinery and Cabinetmaking Simplified" covers
> the basics and will cause you to ask more questions.
...
> Lew

I just requested it from my library. Part of my intent was to not have to
ask so many questions to the group. I expect that after I look at the book,
any questions that I have will be better ones.

I hope for an early 2010 assembly. I've got a co-project of patching,
painting and cleaning my garage/"workshop to be" with a concrete
grinder--never used one of those before, but they evidently rent them in
town at $95/day! :) Based on your last message, I need to plan on buying
a few more pipe clamps too (12)...

Thank you!
Bill

"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:F9Ijm.237
>
> Cut gusset plates about 18"x24" from 1/2 CDX ply.
> (8 Req'd)
>

Remember where this thread started...I've not had luck being around fresh
plywood at all. I do need to draw up a design for my bench (es) though.

Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Bill" wrote:
>
>> Remember where this thread started...I've not had luck being around
>> fresh plywood at all. I do need to draw up a design for my bench
>> (es) though.
>
> To answer your question, "yes", but I forgot.
>
> Can you paint the stuff or is just being on the same planet with it a
> problem?

He said that he's sensitized--being in the same building with it does a
number on him.

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>> "Bill" wrote:
>>
>>> Remember where this thread started...I've not had luck being around
>>> fresh plywood at all. I do need to draw up a design for my bench
>>> (es) though.
>>
>> To answer your question, "yes", but I forgot.
>>
>> Can you paint the stuff or is just being on the same planet with it a
>> problem?
>
> He said that he's sensitized--being in the same building with it does a
> number on him.


Well, being in the same room where the untreated material has been sitting
is a problem.
I had to give away a Sauder bookcase I bought because I couldn't stand to be
in the
same room with it (a lot of sweating--my whole body, especially my chest,
arms, neck).
That was a stronger reaction than my usual shortness of breath reaction from
mere exposure.

When I actually sanded some plywood and laminate (on different days) the
reactions were
ones I had to face in bed. I've been to the emergency room for similar
reactions twice (from
other allergens), and knowing there is not much they do, except tell me that
the first number
of my blood pressure is about 165, I just "road it out". I was worried
though.

It's sort of become personal. I don't want to have plywood, MDF or particle
board in my life
anymore than I have to. I will be very pleased to build and use a
formaldehyde-free workbench!
With regard to your question, I wish there were no plywood, MDF or particle
board, as we
presently know them, on this planet! :) For similiar reasons, I also
wish there were no chickens
in my grocier's freezer with "broth added", or products with artificial
smoked flavoring,
but I won't hold my breath waiting for any of these things to disappear.
Amusingly, if I had
been born 50 years earlier I would not have encountered any of these
unnatural allergens. ;)

By the way, ICYAI, in the food industry, the advertising word "natural" has
absolutely no meaning.

Bill

> Bill | 2009-08-14 | 5:37:28 AM wrote:
>
>>My garage floor is badly stained too--from trans fluids, paint
>>stains, and who knows what...
>>I've heard there are some good options
>>painting the floor (epoxy-related)--I haven't learned yet how much
>>prep they require.
>


"SteveBell" <[email protected]> wrote

> Yes, some of the floor products are good, but the good ones are very
> expensive, and the ones you buy at the big-box stores aren't the good
> ones. All of them need a good, clean surface to bond to, so you'll
> spend tons of time cleaning the concrete beforehand. You might even
> have to rent a concrete grinder. Before you make up your mind what to
> do, look at options like rubber tiles and roll coverings.
>
> --
> Steve Bell
> New Life Home Improvement
> Arlington, TX USA

I called a fellow (Indiana): $2000 to prep and surface my two car garage
with
something claimed to be 4 times as strong as epoxy. He said the prep
(concrete grinder)
is the expensive part when I said that I don't need to have it look like an
auto
showroom--that I mainly was interested that it be cleaned.

Since then, I learned that I can locally rent a big gas or electric concrete
grinder for $95/day (I
will call to find out if I should expect other expenses such as grinding
disks).

A gallon of epoxy covering from Lowes is about $60 and is supposed to cover
250 square
feet. My garage is 450 square feet, so I'll need two gallons. If this sort
of product is only
"good", then what other coverings might you recommend ? Epoxy "Paint" seems
more desirable to me than rubber tiles or roll coverings.

Any thoughts welcome of course.

Bill

"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I understand you can't machine ply, cdx, etc, but what about painted ply
> surfaces.
>


From what I have read, paint does not prevent outgassing of
formaldehyde--but there
are sealants that do. I am currently sitting at a Sauder computer desk I
assembled in 1997
which gives me no problems now. It did in 1997, but I was less sensitive at
that time.
I remember looking at some of my furniture then questioning, "How can a
piece of furniture
seem to make me sweat?".

To me, "time" seems like a better healer of the material than a covering for
it is. Personally,
I'd like to avoid it altogether. I would like to avoid bringing any new
materials into my home that place
my sense of well-being at risk. My sense of well-being was bombarded while
I was figuring
out what my issues were. By the way, I don't think these aren't just my
issues--I think I'm just a little
more sensitive than most people to the chemicals that are showing up in
consumer products
and food. I don't think the chemicials under question are good for any
people. Sadly, I think
that he big picture here is remnicient of the way that tobacco companies
defended the safety
of smoking cigarettes (until not very long ago). I don't find this
encouraging--and it bothers me
that the USA allows the import of building materials that no other country
will allow?!$$

Bill

"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Bill" wrote:
>
>> A gallon of epoxy covering from Lowes is about $60 and is supposed to
>> cover 250 square
>> feet.
>
> Cold day in hell when you can buy a gallon of epoxy for $60, closer to
> $100.


I guess this is what I was looking at the other day (or something very
similar to it):

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=288556-4-002.0051730.007


It might be adequate for my current needs. At this point, I just want to
stand on and look at a clean floor rather than a very grimey one. I'm not
planning to show it off on tv or anything. :)

Bill

"diggerop" <toobusy@themoment> wrote in message news:4a90ead3$0> This may
interest you: - something I came across recently.
>
> There is a forum at Garagejournal.com with a thread describing
> contributors experiences with Quikcrete epoxy kits from Lowes. Cost seems
> to be around $65 per kit to cover around 250 sq ft. Thread starter
> describes the whole process including floor grinding, with photo's.
> General consensus seems to be that it performs well.
>
> http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33702
>
> diggerop


Thank you for posting this, diggerop.

That must be what I found at Lowes site the other day because the price and
the square footage is about the same. What do you think of the result, Lew
(I don't have other results to compare it to, but I think it looks pretty
good)?

Bill

"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> You are goinjg to want to alternate clamps (One up, one down) to keep
> things in line.
>
> Plan on a dozen clamps.
>
>>Especially since, by the time everything is glued together, the errors
>>could be added together 8 times.
>


I've been thinking about the pipe for the pipe clamps.

I assume that "black steel 3/4, schedule 40" is the right type.

I was thinking 24 to 28 two foot pieces would be about right, so that
using couplets, that would allow me to have 12 to 14 four-foot clamps
(of course, I've never done this before).

I know someone who can thread the pipe for me if I buy unthreaded
pipe--but where? What is a good source for this pipe?

I've been scrounging around the Internet, so I'm not idealess, but I
still would like to hear your ideas.

Maybe I should give up all this "nonsense" and try to get the bar clamps on
sale
at HF for $5 each...

Bill

Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Bill" wrote:
>
>> I've been thinking about the pipe for the pipe clamps.
>>
>> I assume that "black steel 3/4, schedule 40" is the right type.
>>
>> I was thinking 24 to 28 two foot pieces would be about right, so
>> that
>> using couplets, that would allow me to have 12 to 14 four-foot
>> clamps
>
>> I know someone who can thread the pipe for me if I buy unthreaded
>> pipe--but where? What is a good source for this pipe?
>>
>> I've been scrounging around the Internet, so I'm not idealess, but I
>> still would like to hear your ideas.
>
> 48" pipe is a good length.
>
> These days there are speciality firms that make pipe nipples all day
> long.
>
> Find a plumbing supply house and get a quote on 3/4" Sch 40, black,
> 48" Lg, threaded nipples.
>
> Throw in a 3/4" coupling for each nipple and you are good to go.

Home Depot will cut and thread it for you if they don't already have it in
stock prethreaded in the length you want.

Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Bill" wrote:
>
>> I've been thinking about the pipe for the pipe clamps.
>>
>> I assume that "black steel 3/4, schedule 40" is the right type.
>>
>> I was thinking 24 to 28 two foot pieces would be about right, so
>> that
>> using couplets, that would allow me to have 12 to 14 four-foot
>> clamps
>
>> I know someone who can thread the pipe for me if I buy unthreaded
>> pipe--but where? What is a good source for this pipe?
>>
>> I've been scrounging around the Internet, so I'm not idealess, but I
>> still would like to hear your ideas.
>
> 48" pipe is a good length.
>
> These days there are speciality firms that make pipe nipples all day
> long.
>
> Find a plumbing supply house and get a quote on 3/4" Sch 40, black,
> 48" Lg, threaded nipples.
>
> Throw in a 3/4" coupling for each nipple and you are good to go.
>
> Have fun.
>
> Lew
>
>
>

Around here, Home Depot has lots of pipe, and in cut lengths of 48".

Tanus

"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:_ldlm.977>
> Find a plumbing supply house and get a quote on 3/4" Sch 40, black, 48"
> Lg, threaded nipples.
>
> Throw in a 3/4" coupling for each nipple and you are good to go.
>


Thank you! Do you use so many couplings to protect the nipples???

Some of the terminology that goes along with the pipes is finally starting
to make sense--and it didn't come to me particularly easy. ;) If it
wasn't for the Internet I might have my 4 by 4's and 2 by 4's bolted
together by now. Instead I'm preparing to build a "millipedes" with twelves
to fourteen 48" legs---heavy ones too! I seem to learn something new every
day.

Bill

"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>> Bill | 2009-08-14 | 5:37:28 AM wrote:
>>
>>>My garage floor is badly stained too--from trans fluids, paint
>>>stains, and who knows what...
>>>I've heard there are some good options
>>>painting the floor (epoxy-related)--I haven't learned yet how much
>>>prep they require.
>>
>
>
> "SteveBell" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>> Yes, some of the floor products are good, but the good ones are very
>> expensive, and the ones you buy at the big-box stores aren't the good
>> ones. All of them need a good, clean surface to bond to, so you'll
>> spend tons of time cleaning the concrete beforehand. You might even
>> have to rent a concrete grinder. Before you make up your mind what to
>> do, look at options like rubber tiles and roll coverings.
>>
>> --
>> Steve Bell
>> New Life Home Improvement
>> Arlington, TX USA
>

I learned I can rent a Edco concrete floor grinder for $95 for the day +
grinding materials (and a hand grinder for $45 more, for the corners). The
"diamond" (Dyma-Sert) cutters are $150 to rent and the stone ones ("coarse"
is appropriate for epoxy preparation according to what I have read about the
stones online) are about $50 to buy. The person doing the renting could
only tell me that most people don't get the diamond ones. My 2 car garage
is exactly 500 sqare feet.

Can I go right at my 40 year old badly stained floor (which has 2 long
narrow cracks, with shifting about them) without power washing first?
Nothing is wet, it's just aged grime (and I want to smooth the cracks). An
Edco video I saw mentioned that the stones can get plugged with glue, but
that doesn't seem too likely to me from a lot of very old grime and a bit of
paint. However, I would hate to see "smearing" occur because that most
likely wouldn't provide good preparation for the epoxy... Feedback
invited, of course.

Bill

"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Bill" wrote:
>> That's an inspiring story. After you glued all of the pieces together,
>> did you hand plane the surface or use a belt sander, or something else?
>> I suspect you used quite a few clamps. Is using clamps on both sides
>> enough to keep all of the pieces in place? This is practically a good
>> enough reason for me to consider buying a jointer (which I assume is
>> capable of doing the planing you mentioned above). Sorry for the novice
>> questions.
>
> If you want to eat a steer, you have to cut him up in little pieces first.
>
> Same principle applies to building a bench top.
>
> Say you want to build a 72" x 24" top using 2x8x10 ft stock.
>
> 1) Cross cut 8 pieces, 2x8x73 saving cutoffs for table leg structure.
>
> 2) Rip 73 long board approximately in half, turn one piece end for end and
> gluing together with TiteBond II with factory edge down.

Lew,

So it would start out at 1 1/2 inches thick (before flattening). Will that
be adequate
for a 7' by 30" top (I realize there are other variables, and I'm planning
a 3' section
in the middle which will have to deal with gravity on its own...)? You may
have seen
my preliminary design pictures at a.b.p.w.

What if I were to cut the lumber into two inch wide strips instead and glue
the (factory) faces?
For one, I'd be "guaranteed" good glueing surfaces, no?
By the way, I used my raincheck and picked up the last of my 15 pipe clamps.
I picked up another rub brick too--I wore the first one out...when those
screws in the rub brick hit the concrete it's worse than chalk on a
chalkboard....I'm still cringing.
I wore the darn thing out and then some.

Bill



>
> You are limited by how many clamps you have as to how fast you complete
> this process.
>
> Trick is to rip and glue as quickly as possible to minimize any possible
> twist.
>
> Continue until you have eight (8) sub assemblies.
>
> The next step is optional, the inclusion of 3/8-16x 22" long, all thread
> bolts in the top. (Not req'd IMHO, if you do a proper glue up.)
>
> 3) Glue up a pair of 2x4s to form a group of four (4) 2x4 sub assemblies.
>
> Repeat process until you have four (4) sub assemblies.
>
> 4) Glue up a pair of remaining 2x4 assemblies to form a group of eight (8)
> 2x4s.
>
> Repeat process until you have two (2) sub assemblies.
>
> 5) Glue up final pair of 2x4 assemblies to form the completed top.
>
> 6) Time to load top in vehicle and head to the commercial drum sander to
> level out top.
>
> For less than $30 you will have a flat top.
>
> Sure beats screwing around with a belt sander IMHO.
>
> Finally trim top to 72" finished length and get started on the base.
>
> Have fun.
>
> Lew
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Bill" wrote:
>
>> Lew,
>>
>> So it would start out at 1 1/2 inches thick (before flattening). Will
>> that be adequate
>> for a 7' by 30" top (I realize there are other variables, and I'm
>> planning a 3' section
>> in the middle which will have to deal with gravity on its own...)?
>
> You are making a mountain out of a mole hill<G>.
>
> 1) Start with a 2x8 and sand one side with some 100 grit.
>
> 2) Rip 2x8 approximately in half.
>
> 3) Glue and clamp sanded faces together with factory edge down for
> registration (Alternate clamps up/down).
>
> 4) Repeat above to make 10 sets for a 30" wide bench.
>
> 5) Repeat process above making 5 sets, gluing sanded faces together.
>
> 6) Repeat process making one set 18" wide and one set 12" wide, gluing
> sanded faces together.
>
> 7) Repeat process to form 30" wide top, gluing sanded faces together..
>
> 8) Head to the drum sanding shop and end up with 30" Wide x 73" long x
> 3-1/2" finished top ready for final trim.
>
> 9) Return home, Pop-A-Top, maybe 2-3, and enjoy the fruits of your labor.
>
> Question for the CW folks:
>
> Where did the phrase "Pop-A-Top" come from?
>
> Lew
>
>

I'm not sure where Pop-A-Top actually started out, but where I used to
hear it, when you heard it, the lights came on and that meant you had to
leave...

Thank you for the detailed directions! If I'm going to make a mountain out
of a molehill I want to do it right! At this point, the idea of a 3"+ top
is starting
to make me drool.

I've been putting more thought into vises and drawers. The machinist vise
idea
doesn't seem as right anymore (the problem is that's what I grew up
with...). I saw a likable
looking "Emmet vise" in "The Workbench Book" (by Landis). That made me
drool
too. I haven't checked availability or prices. Some dang fool requested the
book
at the library, so I had to return it. So I ordered it from Amazon (along
with another
book along the lines of "fun with concrete").

I think among my first posts, we were talking about minstrel style banjos...

I try to keep working towards these goals...I'm on my 2nd rub brick, and am
getting pretty good at SketchUp. Came home and raked leaves.
I have a job. Life is good. Hope everyone herely mostly feels as good, or
better.

Bill

Bill wrote:
> I'm not sure where Pop-A-Top actually started out, but where I used to
> hear it, when you heard it, the lights came on and that meant you had to
> leave...
>
> Thank you for the detailed directions! If I'm going to make a mountain out
> of a molehill I want to do it right! At this point, the idea of a 3"+ top
> is starting
> to make me drool.
>
> I've been putting more thought into vises and drawers. The machinist vise
> idea
> doesn't seem as right anymore (the problem is that's what I grew up
> with...). I saw a likable
> looking "Emmet vise" in "The Workbench Book" (by Landis). That made me
> drool
> too. I haven't checked availability or prices. Some dang fool requested the
> book
> at the library, so I had to return it. So I ordered it from Amazon (along
> with another
> book along the lines of "fun with concrete").
>
> I think among my first posts, we were talking about minstrel style banjos...
>
> I try to keep working towards these goals...I'm on my 2nd rub brick, and am
> getting pretty good at SketchUp. Came home and raked leaves.
> I have a job. Life is good. Hope everyone herely mostly feels as good, or
> better.
>
> Bill

I don't have anything to add Bill other than I enjoyed reading your post. You seem like a
right nice feller. :-)

--
"Even if your wife is happy but you're unhappy, you're still happier
than you'd be if you were happy and your wife was unhappy." - Red Green
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

Steve Turner wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>> I'm not sure where Pop-A-Top actually started out, but where I used to
>> hear it, when you heard it, the lights came on and that meant you had
>> to leave...
>>
>> Thank you for the detailed directions! If I'm going to make a mountain
>> out
>> of a molehill I want to do it right! At this point, the idea of a
>> 3"+ top is starting
>> to make me drool.
>>
>> I've been putting more thought into vises and drawers. The machinist
>> vise idea
>> doesn't seem as right anymore (the problem is that's what I grew up
>> with...). I saw a likable
>> looking "Emmet vise" in "The Workbench Book" (by Landis). That made
>> me drool
>> too. I haven't checked availability or prices. Some dang fool
>> requested the book
>> at the library, so I had to return it. So I ordered it from Amazon
>> (along with another
>> book along the lines of "fun with concrete").
>>
>> I think among my first posts, we were talking about minstrel style
>> banjos...
>>
>> I try to keep working towards these goals...I'm on my 2nd rub brick,
>> and am
>> getting pretty good at SketchUp. Came home and raked leaves.
>> I have a job. Life is good. Hope everyone herely mostly feels as
>> good, or better.
>>
>> Bill
>
> I don't have anything to add Bill other than I enjoyed reading your
> post. :-)
>

Thanks Steve, I'm glad you enjoyed my post. -Bill

"Bill" wrote:

> I understand your directions. I'll need a table saw and a jointer
(I already
> had plans to buy a table saw, in any event). How many bar clamps
> should one use to properly glue the 73" boards, and what type might
> you recommend for someone who doesn't have any?

T/S, yes.

BTW, you don't buy a T/S, you buy the fence that goes on the T/S.

IMHO, the Delta Unifence is tough to beat.

Jointer, not yet.

A table top planer will be far more useful than a jointer and with a
simple jig you can use the T/S to create straight glue lines, thus no
jointer needed.

Clamps are like sex, you can never have too many.

For a glue-up, clamps every 12" works, but I like 6" better.

Start out with 30, 3" C-Clamps, 30, 4" C-Clamps, 20, 6" C-Clamps and
50, 2" Spring Clamps.

After that 24-30, 24" Bar Clamps, 18-24, 3/4" Pipe Clamps (Down the
road comes the high priced spread)

Find a plumbing supply house that will handle counter business.

These days, cut to length pipe nipples, threaded both ends, are a
standard item.

Buy some 36" and 48" 3/4 black nipples and some 3/4 couplings so you
can assemble any special long pipe clamps you need.

You just spent what a decent jointer will cost.

Stay away from Harbor Freight for the C-Clamps and the Pipe Clamps,
but there bar clamps pass muster, especially when on sale.

When you are at Home Depot with a $10 bill burning a hole in your
pocket, turn it into $1 each spring clamps.

A gallon of TiteBond II and you are ready to start to get ready to go.

Have fun.

Lew

On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 18:51:55 -0400, alexy <[email protected]> wrote:

>If you have a jointer and planer, it can make stock prep for the
>glue-up MUCH easier, but unless you have an aircraft carrier size
>jointer, you will not flatten the finished bench with that. Some have
>suggested taking it to a commercial shop to get the top finished on
>their wide belt sander. That would be a lot easier than doing the
>rough flattening with planes (as I did). But I don't see how that
>process could make it flat (if that is important to you). Maybe
>someone who has used that approach could address that.

A drum sander doesn't have the feed rollers that a planer has, it has
a conveyor belt underneath, and a fairly long table. So it is better
at flattening than a planer if you flip it over after each pass. But
it depends on how thick the stock is and how bad the problems were.
It's much more effective to use a sled and shim under it and flatten
one side then flip it over, that's really the only way to get it
*flat* if it was bowed or twisted to start with. But for something
workbench top size it really should end up flat without much trouble
as the thickness means it's not going to deflect very much. If you
glue it up with a serious bow or twist in it then you may have issues,
but if it's reasonable to start with it should end up pretty darn
flat.

But if that's what you have to resort to then I'd say you're better
off buying a premade slab from Grizzly or Ikea.


-Kevin

"Bill" wrote:

> Thank you! Do you use so many couplings to protect the nipples???

Industry standard, one coupling per length of pipe, in this case a 48"
nipple.

Coupling protects threads on free end, fixed end pipe clamp protects
other end.

Enjoy.

Lew

------------------------------------------------------
I previously asked:
> Can you paint the stuff or is just being on the same planet with it
> a
> problem?
-----------------------------------------------------
"Bill" wrote:

> Well, being in the same room where the untreated material has been
> sitting is a problem.
<snip allergry woes>

Can certainly appreciate your problem as I developed contact
dermatitis from exposure to epoxy a few years ago.

It was a bear for awhile.

I understand you can't machine ply, cdx, etc, but what about painted
ply surfaces.

That table I described was built outside, lived it's entire life
outside with only a couple of coats of paint to protect it.

It could be built without ply gussets but you're stuck with a ply
table surface.

Lew

"Bill" wrote:

> A gallon of epoxy covering from Lowes is about $60 and is supposed
> to cover 250 square
> feet.

Cold day in hell when you can buy a gallon of epoxy for $60, closer to
$100.

I don't know what those people are smoking, but it is good stuff.

There was an episode of This Old House a couple of years ago where
they resurfaced a concrete garage floor.

All I can remember was it was a 2-3 day project and definitely not a
one man job.

Cleansed, ground and etched the existing concrete first day followed
by coating next day as I remember.

Maybe a Google may help.

Lew

>
> When you use a whole bunch of clamps in a row, say like when making the
> benchtop, it seems like putting an extra board under a row of clamps
> would distribute that "point loading" into more uniform loading.

that's absolutely correct... you get it.

> Still it seems like 1 clamp per foot is a reasonable minimum.

Draw 2 lines at 45 degrees from the direction of clamping. This will define
the area where you will get good clamping pressure. If you clam 2 6" boards
together that will suggest clamps every 12 inches. If the boards are only 2
inches wide, optimally, you would want clamps every 4 inches.

-Steve

"Bill" wrote:

> Anyone, Please let me know if you would suggest a book or two that I
> might find useful.

Fred Bingham's book, "Boat Joinery and Cabinetmaking Simplified"
covers the basics and will cause you to ask more questions.

Forget the boat stuff unless it interests you.


About $20 from Amazon.

Lew