OT FIRST RUN WOODWORKS

<< Looks like he's found a way to do his show - tattoo and all - on his
terms:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QUNTpYq3Ys

Looks like he just added it a couple weeks ago, be neat to see where
he takes it.>>

Well, the first place he needs to take it is someplace where he can obtain a
wireless mic. It's great to see David giving new woodworking
demonstrations/lessons, but it would be better to also be able to hear him.

Lee

--
To e-mail, replace "bucketofspam" with "dleegordon"

_________________________________
Lee Gordon
http://www.leegordonproductions.com

You know Swing, that was a pretty good video. I was surprised to see
how accessible and easy going Marks was.

He came to our sunny town about three years ago shilling something for
Woodcraft. Here for the day only, it was treated as the second
coming. The boys of the woodworking club and the staff at WC were
positively giddy with excitement.

He got here, and by all accounts, he was abrupt and hurried. It was
obvious that it was an obligation. He did not want to share
woodworking stories with any of them, and made that clear. But he
really rubbed the woodworking club members the wrong way at his
reaction to a piece they brought forward for his blessing.

One of the guys had made one of Marks' tables, and had gotten so many
compliments on it that he decided to teach others how to make it.
(That meant he was now a woodworking instructor, right?) This guy had
made several of these tables along with his classes, and was feeling
pretty good about his work.

Without knowing who the instructor or artisan actually was, he looked
over the table and rendered a pretty seething commentary on how it was
made, how the joints were assembled, how the veneer trims were
installed and really hammered the finish.

Marks did not know that they "instructor" was standing right there
with him, and his words cut really deep. As for me, I saw the table
and I must say I have seen better and I have seen worse. (Although, I
must say in Marks' defense that the finish looked like it was put on
with a flooring trowel.)

Maybe he was rushed, maybe he didn't want to be there, maybe there was
trouble at home, who knows. But he cut so deeply that the guy quit
his instruction and won't teach anyone anything anymore.

In my opinion, Marks was wrong. There were all these older retirees,
younger hobby guys, garage woodworkers, etc., that were just looking
for a pat on the back. I know there are many that feel like the cold
light of truth is always the best way to view things, but I am not one
of them. Those guys knew there work wasn't perfect, they just wanted
a nod and a "man, that looks nice". They would have have been "proud
to bust" and had bragging rights for 10 years over a compliment.

And it isn't like these guys were even trying to make it as cabinet or
furniture makers. I get a charge out of some of them as they told me
that it takes so damn long for them to do anything that they would
starve to death unless they charged by the hour. But, the allow that
if they charged by the hour they would be rich!

Since I do this for a living like you do, I run into two different
kinds of folks that do woodworking. There are those that don't want
me to see their work. I always find ways to compliment them.
Always. They turn beet red when their SO says from the kitchen
"honey, did you show Robert the XXX you made?". I always finds
something positive to say. On the other hand, from time to time I am
surprised and run into a fellow that is as good as any professional,
so it is easy to be complimentary. I find that most non-professional
woodworkers have a good sense of humility, and are in the crafts to
enjoy them more than anything else.

The other kind is the one that cannot wait for me to see what he has
done. These were the guys that were at the Marks show at WC. And
yes, these guys get compliments, too. Why not? They aren't pros, and
don't pretend to be. Sometimes they ask for tips, sometimes I offer
one or two. It is always a positive experience. And if they turn out
to be clients, more than once I have had wives come to me and tell me
how much they appreciated me taking the time to examine a project and
pass on some compliments.

I think the art of a carefully crafted compliment is a good habit to
have, and one that is also lost these days. It costs nothing, and
given the right way you aren't pandering or insincere. But you can
sure do a lot of good with it.

I think it is interesting that Marks speaks highly of others and his
students and assistants, and he seemed sincere in the video since he
obviously didn't have to bring it up at all. And he was really nice
to that young guy and his wife.

Maybe when he came here he was just having a bad day.

Off the soap box now.

Robert

evodawg <[email protected]> wrote in news:iOjSj.8077$PY5.6511@trnddc01:

>
> What the hell are mimes??????????? Whatever they are it sounds like I'm
> lucky not to know.
>

They're anti-personelle (sp?) devices put in place by various armies at
times of war. Walking in a mime field is always considered a bad thing,
and often results in death.

Puckdropper
--
Oops.

"LRod" wrote
> Was WoodWorks ever on PBS? I thought that was a DIY original.

You're right ... I've always used a DVR to record WoodWorks because I was
usually gone on Saturday nights. I _thought_ I remembered the original shows
without commercial interruption, which could only have happened on PBS.

I'm definitely making a conscious effort to do less thinking as time goes
by, apparently for good reason ...

> remember David mentioning as he was describing the production process
> the voiceover work he had to do in post including the extremely
> annoying "when we come back..." and "previously on our project..."
> segments bracketing the commercials.

Currently recording the ones I lost and I certainly don't remember all the
aggravating crap DIY flashes on the screen during the actual "re-run"
content.


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 3/27/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 17:59:28 -0700 (PDT), dayvo <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Like that wood whisperer kid. The
>guys at the guild are always making jokes about him and how full of
>himself he is. He sure does like to hear himself talk. I haven't
>been able to make it more than a couple of minutes through any of his
>podcasts. He rambles on a lot and doesn't do much of anything on the
>show. I think he should put in a decade or two of working wood before
>he declares himself David Marks Jr.


I hear ya'!

At least he seems to have slowed down with dropping David Marks' name.

While WW (I can't remember his name...) does look like he has some
skills, he does smack of a guy who couldn't make much money as a pro,
designing and building things, so we went the media / instructing
route. I think he actually has promise as a demonstrator, but without
the portfolio of a DJM, Lonnie Bird, Frank Klaus, etc...

Did you ever notice how little WW does with hand tools?


---------------------------------------------
** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------

On Apr 30, 3:20 pm, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:

> > He was not there
> > to instruct, critique, or judge projects. He was there to be the guy
> > on TV. ...
>
> ...
>
> That's what I was thinking -- they were trying to get something out of
> the visit that was unintended and resulted in unintended consequences
> (probably) on both sides...

Possibly.

But let me be more blunt, at the risk of offending some here. What I
saw was a group of older retirees (not recent) that had gathered to
see someone they admired and respected. Older guys that have taken up
woodworking at the last part of their lives. I see them as harmless
older guys some talented, some not so much so, but all doing something
rather than to sit and rust out. The folks that were there to see him
were meek, and felt it was an honor to see him.

So I'll take your side on this for a minute.

They should not have been so gullible as to think that Marks was
anyone other than a manufactured personality that won a contest (watch
Swing's video) to get a show. They were stupid to think he was
anything like the character in his show, but in reality only a self
serving snob that was there making an appearance due to contractual
obligation he could not evade.

And too, shame on them for expecting him to be polite and
considerate, or at least keep shut. As pointed out in this thread,
that seems to be a lot to ask of many these days, and he may not be
able to deliver. As my sister the Human Resources expert says, "it
may be beyond his current skill set".

The WC folks were not pleased, though. The owner's rep told me that
they expected Marks to be there as an ambassador for woodworking, have
a little fun, and to shake a few hands an kiss a few babies. Marks
cost them business and teaching income. He was paid to do a job, and
he didn't do it. Worse, in the end it went the opposite way it was
supposed to go.

Still, my comments were on his behavior, not the man. I hope he was
just having a bad day.

Robert

[email protected] wrote:

<snip>
>
> I think it is interesting that Marks speaks highly of others and his
> students and assistants, and he seemed sincere in the video since he
> obviously didn't have to bring it up at all. And he was really nice
> to that young guy and his wife.
>
> Maybe when he came here he was just having a bad day.
>
> Off the soap box now.
>
> Robert
>

David Marks sells plans for a number of the projects on his shows. I'd
assume that all of his designs are copyrighted.

David Marks runs his own private and group woodworking classes along
with teaching classes at select Woodcraft store.

I'm surprised Woodcraft allowed the person to bring the table in for
fear of a law suit.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]

On Apr 30, 12:37 pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Remember what you were supposed to learn at your mother's knee?
>
> "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything ay all".

Amen, brother. Some of those harmless little old retirees didn't
deserve that treatment. They were the ones that seem to take it the
hardest.

And they are so far off Marks' radar, I didn't understand why he
couldn't have shown just a bit more decorum, if not consideration.

Robert

"Puckdropper" wrote in message
> evodawg wrote
>
> >
> > What the hell are mimes??????????? Whatever they are it sounds like I'm
> > lucky not to know.
> >
>
> They're anti-personelle (sp?) devices put in place by various armies at
> times of war. Walking in a mime field is always considered a bad thing,
> and often results in death.


Yabbut, ONLY as long as you _say_ something about it!!


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 3/27/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 10:39:38 -0500, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:

>"i82much" wrote
>
>> Here in southern Calif "WoodsmithShop" just started airing on PBS
>> The shows I've seen deal with the basic wwing process
>
>AAMOF, I wish I still had the original versions I recorded from PBS of "Wood
>Works" (lost them on a DVR that went south before I had a chance to xfer
>them to DVD), as the DIY versions are full of DIY's inane commercial
>bullshit, including pop up screens over the content on occasion ... damned
>American commercial greed.

Was WoodWorks ever on PBS? I thought that was a DIY original. I
remember David mentioning as he was describing the production process
the voiceover work he had to do in post including the extremely
annoying "when we come back..." and "previously on our project..."
segments bracketing the commercials.

I was also surprised at how pressing (and unrealistic) the production
team could be regarding time and the processes to be demonstrated. He
mentioned one segment in which he was to do a glueup which would take
several minutes on a good day, but if pushed, he might be able to do
in 50 seconds. They alloted 7 seconds. He argued, they insisted, he
tried to explain, they insisted, he did it in 50 seconds, anyway, and
let them "fix it in post."

Although it generally looked like he was enjoying the show, there was
apparently a fair amount of behind the scenes frustration. Still, he
was ready to do more when they pulled the plug on production. I don't
remember (if I knew) whether that was a DIY decision or the
productiont company.


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net
http://www.normstools.com

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

On Apr 29, 5:59=A0am, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "ron" =A0wrote in message
> > Just curious, are there any first run Woodworks episodes? DIY network ru=
ns
> > the show all weekend, but I have noticed they are all dated 2002 to 2005=
.
>
> Actually, there haven't been any new shows in over three years. Here is a
> video interview with David and his wife, Victoria, where he mentions the
> number of episodes:
>
> http://thewoodwhisperer.com/episode-24-david-marks-interview/
>
> --www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 3/27/08
> KarlC@ (the obvious)

Here in southern Calif "WoodsmithShop" just started airing on PBS
The shows I've seen deal with the basic wwing process

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>
Soooooo.. are you saying that when Julia Childs slid a roast in the
oven, and took it out 45 seconds later....it COULD have been
shenanigans/video/time-lapse kinda trickery? Is that why my 20-second
souffles were always very runny?

*************************************************************

Robatoy - get with it man. It's Rachel Ray now, not Julia Childs. And
Rachel Ray can slide anything she wants in my opinion. Of course, I'm
speaking of the fact that she's a good upstate NY girl...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On May 5, 2:28 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> BUT ROBERT!
>
> If you don't watch commercials, how do you know when the new "in" thing has
> arrived? ;~)

I rarely know when the "in" thing has arrived. I am sometimes the
last one to find out things that are cool. Sadly, it's been that way
for years.

But I have found that there are plenty of people around that will
gladly tell me what to think.

Robert

On Apr 30, 7:13=A0am, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote
>
> > Marks did not know that they "instructor" was standing right there
> > with him, and his words cut really deep. =A0As for me, I saw the table
> > and I must say I have seen better and I have seen worse. =A0(Although, I=

> > must say in Marks' defense that the finish looked like it was put on
> > with a flooring trowel.)
> > In my opinion, Marks was wrong.
>
> I don't know Marks at all, so I can't say.
>
> However, and unless/until you've dealt with the truly artistic on a
> professional level, you have no idea how critical they can be of other's o=
f
> the same ilk, and at the same time be completely crushed by the tiniest
> criticism of their own efforts ... it appears both these elements appear i=
n
> your story. :)
>
> I will say that I've had similar experiences in the studio being _forced_ =
to
> make judgments about songs, music, vocals, etc. as to suitability for
> recording and/or including in a project, and I'm probably more like Mark's=

> was at that particular moment ... if it sucks, it sucks, and it certainly
> won't make the creator/artist a better songwriter/musician to be told how
> wonderful their bad song/part is.
>
> AAMOF, you are ultimately, and in reality, doing them a favor, not to
> mention doing what you're paid to do.
>
> That said, a considerate person will usually insure that constructive, or
> destructive as the case may be, criticism always includes suggestions for
> improvement. In the studio where 'magic musical moments' are the most soug=
ht
> after pearls, it is imperative because a creative person can be so crushed=

> as to no longer be able to perform.
>
> Sound familiar?
>

What we are talking about is the long lost art of 'tact'.
Compliments roll off some people's tongues and sound plastic and
phoney.
The finish on that table that Robert talks about could have been
discussed in a more constructive manner.
"I can see the effort that went into that table, the finish, however,
could be enhanced to help bring out the beauty of the
work.".........."THIS is what I would suggest you try:...yadda, yadda,
yadda...."

Constructive criticism, a helpful hand, everybody wins.

Now, in the music business...LOL...life's a little different. One must
Clintonize one's possible competition. "You suck!" is a perfectly
normal way to respond to an upstart's performance. Take that sumbiatch
DOWN before he/she steals my gig.
Helpful hands and friendships are rare in the music business.
As David Clayton Thomas once said: "just play the notes, you're
nothing but a tube of fucking paint to me, *I* am the artist."
It's an industry based on destruction... for the most part.

r

"[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:

>You know Swing, that was a pretty good video. I was surprised to see
>how accessible and easy going Marks was.

I had the opportunity to spend a day (it turned out to be a long day)
woodworking with him. He was as accessible and easy going as anybody could ask.
He also has a wicked sense of humor. But he doesn't pass out compliments like
gumdrops. -- Doug

On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 15:14:48 -0500, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>> On Apr 30, 1:10 pm, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Reading the story my take is the folks at the store and in the club are
>>> probably at least equally at fault for taking excessive advantage of an
>>> event for their own purposes...
>>
>> In what way?
>
>The "want to touch and be touched" by the celebrity phenomenon. Talked
>of treating the visit as the second coming...just the observation of how
>people (especially groups) can act in such circumstances.


?. If he were paid, as I assume he was, that is exactly the
expectation that he should have.

Frank

On May 6, 9:53=A0am, "Lee Michaels" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> > <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:25bb9dfa-96fe-4914-869f-553674b064d8@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...=

> >> On May 5, 2:28 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>> BUT ROBERT!
>
> >>> If you don't watch commercials, how do you know when =A0the new "in" t=
hing
> >>> has
> >>> arrived? =A0;~)
>
> >> I rarely know when the "in" thing has arrived. =A0I am sometimes the
> >> last one to find out things that are cool. =A0Sadly, it's been that way=

> >> for years.
>
> > I agree, clearly you are behind the times. =A0 LOL =A0Cool is not cool a=
ny
> > more, it's Phat and Sweet. =A0Or is it Sweet and Phat?
>
> A truly accurate term that I have heard used is SICK.

I thought it was KEEN.

On Thu, 1 May 2008 23:08:50 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>> You weren't clear on whether you were actually there or not, but there
>> is one other possibility (if you weren't) and that's that somehow
>> someone got their nose out of joint, and that the real story isn't
>> exactly the way it was told to you. Of course if you were there, I
>> accept that it's an accurate rendition, if not even more puzzling.
>
>To be fair, I was at the store when he was there, but not standing IN
>FRONT of him when he made his remarks. It was easy to catch the
>brusque attitude and some of the remarks. It was easier still for me
>to talk to the store manager whom was a good friend, known to me to be
>without exaggeration...

[snip]

>Your point about someone's nose being out of joint was well stated and
>pertinent. But to expand on that a bit, you can see the difference in
>how he treated a plane made from an edger blade in your experience to
>how things were handled when he was here. And again, I heard the same
>story from they guys that were standing there when it was said, the
>same exact remarks from 3 - 4 guys and the store manager. And it was
>told with no time to rehearse as Marks was still in the store.

I didn't mean to intimate conspiracy. Same story from several people
is more likely to reflect actual events than suggest collusion.

>> Well, I still like the David Marks I met. I probably wouldn't have
>> cared much for the one you described. It's too bad that stories like
>> this get told (true or not). It only takes one aberrant encounter to
>> seriously tarnish an image.
>
>Not really. I think that all remarks made here were made with respect
>for him and always regard the fact (Hey... I started it, too!) that he
>may have simply had a bad day. Really, you know we all have them. I
>didn't see anyone flame him, trash him, or belittle him in any way.
>Everyone here seemed pretty damn civil if you ask me.

Yeah, we all were/are. I'm just saying it's too bad for him to have an
off day (for whatever reason) and the report of it to be extant,
however obsdure the forum might be. And, of course, it'll be available
for a long time to come with any old search effort.

>Now the guy I would like to meet (as I have said here before) is
>Norm.

I'll second that!

>But I did get to talk to some guys that sat at the back of the store
>and had lunch with him, and they said he was the nicest, most
>unassuming guy you would ever meet.

That is the universal description of him I've heard/read everywhere.

>But think about it. Norm can hang a passage door, and even make it
>for you. He can build kitchen cabinets, lawn furniture, different
>styles of house furniture, build handy jigs, repair structural
>framing, and build a blanket chest. That might be one season.

I've heard that.

>My kinda guy.

Yep.


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net
http://www.normstools.com

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

"LRod" wrote

> that Woodcraft had Marks in for some sessions. One of the locals got
> the bright idea to invite him to join us after the day's sessions were
> over, and he accepted (actually I think it was Victoria who accepted,
> but it doesn't matter, they both showed up).

Based on both seeing, and listening briefly, to Mrs. Marks, I wouldn't
hesitate to go out on a limb and congratulate David for his luck in SWMBO
selection.

She comes across as a very classy lady.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 3/8/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

>> However, and unless/until you've dealt with the truly artistic on a
>> professional level, you have no idea how critical they can be of other's of
>> the same ilk, and at the same time be completely crushed by the tiniest
>> criticism of their own efforts ... it appears both these elements appear in
>> your story. :)
>
>I do have a good idea, and I have never liked "those kinds of guys".
>One thing I learned over nearly 35 years of getting paid as a
>professional woodworker is this: No matter how good you are, there is
>always someone better.
>

I like you last statement because I say the same thing. I am better
than some and not as good as others. And no matter who you are, what
you do, or who your mommy is, someone else is better at something.

Marks may be the guy in front of the camera, but the people behind the
camera are people who actually perform. Same as Norm. It would
interesting to see how crappy or good his work is if the camera never
left the work piece and no one else was allowed near it until
completion.

Most of the people I know are either very good at construction methods
or very good at a finish, but seldom both. We are all in too much of
a rush. When I show off my work I get the oohs and aahs but few
people see the screw ups. I see them all and am my own worst critic.

To be publicly harshly critical of someone else is way out of line and
hardly constructive. For that Marks get low marks. Maybe that's
how Marks is to everyone off camera. Or maybe he really was having a
bad day.

As a critique of my own, his projects have the look of 10th grade
industrial arts projects. Using exotic woods doesn't make them
better.

P

>>
>>However, and strictly my opinion you understand, men who dye their hair at
>>55,
>>
>>... you fill in the blanks. ;)
>
>
>Well, I considered it, however, procrastination has resulted in an
>ever declining need since it has become much harder to gather up
>something to dye. :)
>
>Frank

I was critical of his own work earlier, but not the hair. That's too
personal. But has anyone noticed that his black brylcreamed hair
gathers no wood dust? What's the secret?

P

On Apr 30, 1:41=A0pm, Tom Watson <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 17:37:49 GMT, "Lew Hodgett"
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Remember what you were supposed to learn at your mother's knee?
>
> >"If you can't say something nice, don't say anything ay all".
>
> >Lew
>
> This could turn the entire planet into a mime show.
>
And a mime is a terrible thing to waste.

On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 11:00:21 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
<[email protected]> wrote:


>>
>And a mime is a terrible thing to waste.

Actually, I'd waste a mime in a heartbeat.

Simpering little shits.

The way I heard it was, " A behind is a terrble thing to waste."



Tom Watson
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet
www.home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1

On Apr 30, 1:10 pm, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> Reading the story my take is the folks at the store and in the club are
> probably at least equally at fault for taking excessive advantage of an
> event for their own purposes...

In what way?

Robert

"Woodie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:ezqSj.145341$yE1.49233@attbi_s21...
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Robatoy - get with it man. It's Rachel Ray now, not Julia Childs. And
>> Rachel Ray can slide anything she wants in my opinion. Of course, I'm
>> speaking of the fact that she's a good upstate NY girl...
>
> Enjoy her looks while you can - at the rate she's going she'll be 300lbs+
> in a couple of years.

No kidding. I caught a glimpse of her while surfing through the channels
not too long ago and man - she was putting it on then.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On May 6, 10:15=A0am, "Timothy Drouillard" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> "Woodie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:GAZTj.152209$yE1.62822@attbi_s21...
>
>
>
> > Robatoy wrote:
> >> On May 6, 9:53 am, "Lee Michaels" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> >>>news:[email protected]...
>
> >>>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >>>>news:25bb9dfa-96fe-4914-869f-553674b064d8@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com=
...
> >>>>> On May 5, 2:28 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>>>> BUT ROBERT!
> >>>>>> If you don't watch commercials, how do you know when =A0the new "in=
"
> >>>>>> thing
> >>>>>> has
> >>>>>> arrived? =A0;~)
> >>>>> I rarely know when the "in" thing has arrived. =A0I am sometimes the=

> >>>>> last one to find out things that are cool. =A0Sadly, it's been that =
way
> >>>>> for years.
> >>>> I agree, clearly you are behind the times. =A0 LOL =A0Cool is not coo=
l any
> >>>> more, it's Phat and Sweet. =A0Or is it Sweet and Phat?
> >>> A truly accurate term that I have heard used is SICK.
>
> >> I thought it was KEEN.
>
> > Groovy?
>
> Neato?

Okay!! We have a winner!

depictureboy wrote:

> On Apr 30, 7:38 am, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Apr 30, 7:13 am, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > <[email protected]> wrote
>>
>> > > Marks did not know that they "instructor" was standing right there
>> > > with him, and his words cut really deep.  As for me, I saw the table
>> > > and I must say I have seen better and I have seen worse.  (Although,
>> > > I must say in Marks' defense that the finish looked like it was put
>> > > on with a flooring trowel.)
>> > > In my opinion, Marks was wrong.
>>
>> > I don't know Marks at all, so I can't say.
>>
>> > However, and unless/until you've dealt with the truly artistic on a
>> > professional level, you have no idea how critical they can be of
>> > other's of the same ilk, and at the same time be completely crushed by
>> > the tiniest criticism of their own efforts ... it appears both these
>> > elements appear in your story. :)
>>
>> > I will say that I've had similar experiences in the studio being
>> > _forced_ to make judgments about songs, music, vocals, etc. as to
>> > suitability for recording and/or including in a project, and I'm
>> > probably more like Mark's was at that particular moment ... if it
>> > sucks, it sucks, and it certainly won't make the creator/artist a
>> > better songwriter/musician to be told how wonderful their bad song/part
>> > is.
>>
>> > AAMOF, you are ultimately, and in reality, doing them a favor, not to
>> > mention doing what you're paid to do.
>>
>> > That said, a considerate person will usually insure that constructive,
>> > or destructive as the case may be, criticism always includes
>> > suggestions for improvement. In the studio where 'magic musical
>> > moments' are the most sought after pearls, it is imperative because a
>> > creative person can be so crushed as to no longer be able to perform.
>>
>> > Sound familiar?
>>
>> What we are talking about is the long lost art of 'tact'.
>> Compliments roll off some people's tongues and sound plastic and
>> phoney.
>> The finish on that table that Robert talks about could have been
>> discussed in a more constructive manner.
>> "I can see the effort that went into that table, the finish, however,
>> could be enhanced to help bring out the beauty of the
>> work.".........."THIS is what I would suggest you try:...yadda, yadda,
>> yadda...."
>>
>> Constructive criticism, a helpful hand, everybody wins.
>>
>> Now, in the music business...LOL...life's a little different. One must
>> Clintonize one's possible competition. "You suck!" is a perfectly
>> normal way to respond to an upstart's performance. Take that sumbiatch
>> DOWN before he/she steals my gig.
>> Helpful hands and friendships are rare in the music business.
>> As David Clayton Thomas once said: "just play the notes, you're
>> nothing but a tube of fucking paint to me, *I* am the artist."
>> It's an industry based on destruction... for the most part.
>>
>> r- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Thats similar to some places in the IT world. I try to be the person
> who always has nice things to say about my coworkers stuff...but I
> find myself trashing unknown IT people who work for other
> companies(vendors, competitors etc) I really dont meant to, but
> sometimes you just look at something someone has done, and you wonder
> "what the hell were they thinking". Bu then, I look at my code, or
> some project that is a few months old, and I think "what the hell was
> I thinking"....
>
> But you are right, tact just isnt there anymore.

Maybe competition has something to do with it. Seems folks have become more
competitive these days and ego gets in the way.
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586

On May 5, 1:47=A0pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:


[snip of a pet peeve]

>=A0I have no idea how anyone sits down to "watch" as show as
> it is being broadcast anymore if it has commercials.
>
> I have the finger on FF all the time on recorded shows, too. =A0Much
> better use of time, and much less aggravating when viewing TV.
>

Anything worth watching can be had via bittorrent. No commercials and
the fastest FF you'll ever see.
I have yet to see commercials on torrents.

> The "want to touch and be touched" by the celebrity phenomenon. =A0Talked
> of treating the visit as the second coming...just the observation of how
> people (especially groups) can act in such circumstances.
>

How about the associated VIP phenomenon? The one where anyone who
knows, touches or comes into the presence of a VIP becomes (thinks
they are) a sort of pseudo VIP? Like that wood whisperer kid. The
guys at the guild are always making jokes about him and how full of
himself he is. He sure does like to hear himself talk. I haven't
been able to make it more than a couple of minutes through any of his
podcasts. He rambles on a lot and doesn't do much of anything on the
show. I think he should put in a decade or two of working wood before
he declares himself David Marks Jr.

"Frank Boettcher" wrote

> From the part of the video I watched, I concluded that Marks was
> through with sponsorship and out of the business of payment for PR.
> Maybe that's a good thing, he may be too artistic and not have the
> patience for it.

The truly talented/artistic are often difficult at the best of times,
regardless of the business they're in.

Add in a bad day "on the road" and it could have just been "one of those
days", regretted by all. We all have them.

However, and strictly my opinion you understand, men who dye their hair at
55, and are artists to boot, well ...

... you fill in the blanks. ;)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 3/27/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Apr 30, 2:52 pm, DJ Delorie <[email protected]> wrote:
> "[email protected]" <[email protected]> writes:
> > No matter how good you are, there is always someone better.
>
> And no matter how much better that someone is, it doesn't mean he
> doesn't have something to learn from you either.
>
> In our guild, you can pick any two random people and be pretty much
> guaranteed that each has something to teach the other.

That is a sign of folks that are "on the path" to me, realizing that
no matter where you are in your skill sets, there is more to the whole
picture than can be learned.. There is no end, only more road. That
would be a guild I would love to join.

Not always but from time to time I still learn from helpers hire to
do something, guys that haven't been doing this for more than a couple
of years. You never know.

Robert

"asmurff" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I believe you have the type of attitude towards others the world really
>needs to try and bring back. I know my woodworking is still on a novice
>level, but a kind word from someone more accomplished sure encourages me to
>continue. That kind word with helpful hints as the say is "priceless".
>

It ain't just woodworking. Kind words are in a great shortage in this day
and age. There was a time when courtesy and polite conversation was
considered an art form.

Kind words are healing. Kind words are helpful and incouraging. Mean and
nasty isn't helpful or inspirational.

Robatoy wrote:
> On May 6, 9:53 am, "Lee Michaels" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>
>>
>>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:25bb9dfa-96fe-4914-869f-553674b064d8@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>>>> On May 5, 2:28 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> BUT ROBERT!
>>>>> If you don't watch commercials, how do you know when the new "in" thing
>>>>> has
>>>>> arrived? ;~)
>>>> I rarely know when the "in" thing has arrived. I am sometimes the
>>>> last one to find out things that are cool. Sadly, it's been that way
>>>> for years.
>>> I agree, clearly you are behind the times. LOL Cool is not cool any
>>> more, it's Phat and Sweet. Or is it Sweet and Phat?
>> A truly accurate term that I have heard used is SICK.
>
> I thought it was KEEN.

Groovy?

"evodawg" wrote

> What the hell are mimes??????????? Whatever they are it sounds like I'm
> lucky not to know.

If you hear any sound, it's too late ...


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 3/27/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Woodie wrote:
>
>
> Robatoy wrote:
>
>>>>>>> I agree, clearly you are behind the times. LOL Cool is not
>>>>>>> cool any
>>>>>>> more, it's Phat and Sweet. Or is it Sweet and Phat?
>>>>>> A truly accurate term that I have heard used is SICK.
>>>>> I thought it was KEEN.
>>>> Groovy?
>>> Neato?
>>
>> Okay!! We have a winner!
> You're right! That's just the cat's meow!
23-skidoo to all of you.

"Woodie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:GAZTj.152209$yE1.62822@attbi_s21...
> Robatoy wrote:
>> On May 6, 9:53 am, "Lee Michaels" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:25bb9dfa-96fe-4914-869f-553674b064d8@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> On May 5, 2:28 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>> BUT ROBERT!
>>>>>> If you don't watch commercials, how do you know when the new "in"
>>>>>> thing
>>>>>> has
>>>>>> arrived? ;~)
>>>>> I rarely know when the "in" thing has arrived. I am sometimes the
>>>>> last one to find out things that are cool. Sadly, it's been that way
>>>>> for years.
>>>> I agree, clearly you are behind the times. LOL Cool is not cool any
>>>> more, it's Phat and Sweet. Or is it Sweet and Phat?
>>> A truly accurate term that I have heard used is SICK.
>>
>> I thought it was KEEN.
>
> Groovy?

Neato?

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On May 1, 12:17 pm, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote
>
> > I was critical of his own work earlier, but not the hair. That's too
> > personal. But has anyone noticed that his black brylcreamed hair
> > gathers no wood dust? What's the secret?
>
> That's too easy ... he doesn't do the actual work. :)
>
> This is TV, son ... what you see has no bearing whatsoever on reality.
>
> Why do you think politicians can get away with what they do, eh? (besides
> the rampant stupidity/apathy of the populace, that is)
>
> Don't get me wrong, I like DJM immensely and have a lot or respect for
what
> he does do, but I'm also well versed in the realities of TV/video
> production.
>
Soooooo.. are you saying that when Julia Childs slid a roast in the
oven, and took it out 45 seconds later....it COULD have been
shenanigans/video/time-lapse kinda trickery? Is that why my 20-second
souffles were always very runny?

The runny soufflé problem is because you aren't using a nitro injection
system on your appliances... the secret to TV cooking is high heat.... or at
least that's the impression Julia's torch scenes left on me. ;~)

John

"dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] wrote:
>> On Apr 30, 1:10 pm, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Reading the story my take is the folks at the store and in the club are
>>> probably at least equally at fault for taking excessive advantage of an
>>> event for their own purposes...
>>
>> In what way?
>
> The "want to touch and be touched" by the celebrity phenomenon. Talked of
> treating the visit as the second coming...just the observation of how
> people (especially groups) can act in such circumstances.
>

That is exactly why companies hire celebrities to come to their store, trade
show booth, new car showroom, etc. If you don't want to play, don't take
the money.

"Lee Michaels" wrote:


> It ain't just woodworking. Kind words are in a great shortage in
> this day and age. There was a time when courtesy and polite
> conversation was considered an art form.
>
> Kind words are healing. Kind words are helpful and incouraging.
> Mean and nasty isn't helpful or inspirational.

Remember what you were supposed to learn at your mother's knee?

"If you can't say something nice, don't say anything ay all".

Lew

"Swingman" wrote

> Actually, there haven't been any new shows in over three years. Here is a
> video interview with David and his wife, Victoria, where he mentions the
> number of episodes:
>
> http://thewoodwhisperer.com/episode-24-david-marks-interview/

Word to the wise wooddorker:

This is a GREAT video to watch with your SWMBO. AAMOF, it should be made a
mandatory SWMBO duty, for indeed, a great amount of woodworking mileage,
karma, blessings, understanding, and maybe even a tool or two, can be
obtained by familiarity therewith. DAMHIKT.

Insist upon it ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 3/27/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> >
> > Marks may be the guy in front of the camera, but the people behind the
> > camera are people who actually perform.
>
> I would change that to say "Marks may be the guy in front of the camera
but
> the people behind the camera also perform". Granted there are people
behind
> the scenes and Marks openly acknowledges that, but they are doing work at
> his direction. You can't take away from the guy what he rightfully
> deserves. The only reason those people are behind the scenes is because
of
> production schedules, not because he lacks the talent to do it.
>
> > Same as Norm.
>
> Hey - genuflect when you say that...
>
> > It would
> > interesting to see how crappy or good his work is if the camera never
> > left the work piece and no one else was allowed near it until
> > completion.
>
> I doubt either of them would turn out a crappy piece of work.

I've met Marks, Abram, and Underhill (and many other "names" for that
matter) and I've seen their work... Each is different from the other and
they aren't trying to be the same.

IMHO Marks is working more in the art arena than the others and I've often
thought that there were more efficient ways to perform some of the tasks he
shows on Woodworks. When it comes to the completed product his work is very
well finished, with tight joints and there are no obvious errors, so who am
I to criticise his processes?

I saw Abram's Butterfly table prior to that show airing and by his own
admission his finishing wasn't up to snuff at that point. The workmanship
was OK but not in the same league with Marks--the top was not as uniformly
flat as it could have been and the finish was not flat and smooth. I suspect
his more recent furniture efforts exhibit better finishing as he has put
effort to improving that area of his work.

Regarding Underhill, by self proclamation he said that "high def" may kill
him... draw you own conclusions!

However, and to me it is a huge however, Undershill's work is perhaps closer
to Pye's notion of the workmanship of risk than the others. Marks is perhaps
at the other extreme as he creates elaborate jigs for everything--though his
designs are riskier. Abram is middling compared to the other two with more
elaborate designs than Underhill though simplier than Marks's, lots of jigs
and powertools, and more modest finishes than Marks--you seldom see
Underhill apply finish (ignoring the sweat and blood jokes).

I find them all interesting and credit Underhill more than the others will
allowing me to teach my young sons woodworking. When they met him and saw
him work they came to understand that you can make beautiful and intricate
things with hand tools... Prior to that they were of the impression that
only a shop and processes like Abram's resulted in anything useful and
beautiful.

Chris Schwarz was a huge help in getting my sons to understand that I was
giving them good instruction. At my club's Showcase in April Schwarz did a
presentation on sawing--3 grades, e.g., whack it off, length critical,
appearance and length critical. After he showed all three and was wrapping
up the section on best quality sawing I turned to my sons and said, "You
guys already know how to do that don't you." They both lite up and said
"Yeah!" Marks inspired my older son to think beyond flat and square designs
when he built his light house model for Showcase. Abram drilled it into
their heads to always put on safety glasses and when needed hearing
protection--I NEVER have to remind them.

I've come to the conclusion that picking a favorite is probably a good way
to limit your own skill set... there is value in each. I enjoy going to the
turners' club meetings though I'm not a turner as I get to see some really
interesting things there that give me ideas...

Anyhow, that's my opinion and I'm now stepping down off the soap box... ;~)

John

evodawg wrote:

> Think music and woodworking are two different talents. In music, vocals or
> composing you either have it or you don't. Woodworking, talent can be
> taught or developed. A true woodworking artist takes time to develop. A
> true musical artist is a god given talent.

I disagree. Talent is innate, skill is learned.

A true artist of any sort must have talent, but that just means that it
makes it easier to learn the skills. They still need to put in the time
to develop their skills.

On the flip side, it's possible to learn most skills without having a
talent for them...it's just more painful and takes longer.

Chris

Swingman wrote:

>
> <[email protected]> wrote
>
>> Marks did not know that they "instructor" was standing right there
>> with him, and his words cut really deep. As for me, I saw the table
>> and I must say I have seen better and I have seen worse. (Although, I
>> must say in Marks' defense that the finish looked like it was put on
>> with a flooring trowel.)
>
>> In my opinion, Marks was wrong.
>
> I don't know Marks at all, so I can't say.
>
> However, and unless/until you've dealt with the truly artistic on a
> professional level, you have no idea how critical they can be of other's
> of the same ilk, and at the same time be completely crushed by the tiniest
> criticism of their own efforts ... it appears both these elements appear
> in your story. :)
>
> I will say that I've had similar experiences in the studio being _forced_
> to make judgments about songs, music, vocals, etc. as to suitability for
> recording and/or including in a project, and I'm probably more like Mark's
> was at that particular moment ... if it sucks, it sucks, and it certainly
> won't make the creator/artist a better songwriter/musician to be told how
> wonderful their bad song/part is.
>
> AAMOF, you are ultimately, and in reality, doing them a favor, not to
> mention doing what you're paid to do.
>
> That said, a considerate person will usually insure that constructive, or
> destructive as the case may be, criticism always includes suggestions for
> improvement. In the studio where 'magic musical moments' are the most
> sought after pearls, it is imperative because a creative person can be so
> crushed as to no longer be able to perform.
>
> Sound familiar?
>

Think music and woodworking are two different talents. In music, vocals or
composing you either have it or you don't. Woodworking, talent can be
taught or developed. A true woodworking artist takes time to develop. A
true musical artist is a god given talent.

So yes it is a good idea to let the less talented musician know right away
he sucks. Let the woodworker develop his talent without critical criticism.

Just my 2 sense.
Rich
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586

> This could turn the entire planet into a mime show.

haha ~

Tom wins!
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

Like that wood whisperer kid. The
> guys at the guild are always making jokes about him and how full of
> himself he is. He sure does like to hear himself talk. I haven't
> been able to make it more than a couple of minutes through any of his
> podcasts. He rambles on a lot and doesn't do much of anything on the
> show. I think he should put in a decade or two of working wood before
> he declares himself David Marks Jr.
>

Strongly agreed...

The most impressive thing about him is his shop.

Money doesn't equate to skill - much less talent.

** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

"Swingman" <[email protected]> laid this on me:

>
> "LRod" wrote
>> Was WoodWorks ever on PBS? I thought that was a DIY original.
>
> You're right ... I've always used a DVR to record WoodWorks because I
> was usually gone on Saturday nights. I _thought_ I remembered the
> original shows without commercial interruption, which could only have
> happened on PBS.
>
> I'm definitely making a conscious effort to do less thinking as time
> goes by, apparently for good reason ...
>
>> remember David mentioning as he was describing the production process
>> the voiceover work he had to do in post including the extremely
>> annoying "when we come back..." and "previously on our project..."
>> segments bracketing the commercials.
>
> Currently recording the ones I lost and I certainly don't remember all
> the aggravating crap DIY flashes on the screen during the actual
> "re-run" content.

Looks like he's found a way to do his show - tattoo and all - on his
terms:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QUNTpYq3Ys

Looks like he just added it a couple weeks ago, be neat to see where
he takes it.

Sean
--
"If I had six hours to chop down a tree, I'd spend the first four hours
sharpening the axe".
-- Abraham Lincoln

"ron" wrote in message
> Just curious, are there any first run Woodworks episodes? DIY network runs
> the show all weekend, but I have noticed they are all dated 2002 to 2005.

Actually, there haven't been any new shows in over three years. Here is a
video interview with David and his wife, Victoria, where he mentions the
number of episodes:

http://thewoodwhisperer.com/episode-24-david-marks-interview/


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 3/27/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:25bb9dfa-96fe-4914-869f-553674b064d8@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>> On May 5, 2:28 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> BUT ROBERT!
>>>
>>> If you don't watch commercials, how do you know when the new "in" thing
>>> has
>>> arrived? ;~)
>>
>> I rarely know when the "in" thing has arrived. I am sometimes the
>> last one to find out things that are cool. Sadly, it's been that way
>> for years.
>
> I agree, clearly you are behind the times. LOL Cool is not cool any
> more, it's Phat and Sweet. Or is it Sweet and Phat?
>
A truly accurate term that I have heard used is SICK.

On Apr 30, 8:59 pm, Tom Watson <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 11:00:21 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >And a mime is a terrible thing to waste.
>
> Actually, I'd waste a mime in a heartbeat.
>
> Simpering little shits.
>
> The way I heard it was, " A behind is a terrble thing to waste."
>
> Tom Watson
> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnetwww.home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1

When I realized my first wife enjoyed mimes, I knew the marriage was
in trouble.

On May 6, 10:05=A0am, Woodie <[email protected]> wrote:
> Robatoy wrote:
> > On May 6, 9:53 am, "Lee Michaels" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> >>news:[email protected]...
>
> >>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >>>news:25bb9dfa-96fe-4914-869f-553674b064d8@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com.=
..
> >>>> On May 5, 2:28 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>>> BUT ROBERT!
> >>>>> If you don't watch commercials, how do you know when =A0the new "in"=
thing
> >>>>> has
> >>>>> arrived? =A0;~)
> >>>> I rarely know when the "in" thing has arrived. =A0I am sometimes the
> >>>> last one to find out things that are cool. =A0Sadly, it's been that w=
ay
> >>>> for years.
> >>> I agree, clearly you are behind the times. =A0 LOL =A0Cool is not cool=
any
> >>> more, it's Phat and Sweet. =A0Or is it Sweet and Phat?
> >> A truly accurate term that I have heard used is SICK.
>
> > I thought it was KEEN.
>
> Groovy?

Far OUT!

On Apr 30, 4:39 pm, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:

> The truly talented/artistic are often difficult at the best of times,
> regardless of the business they're in.
>
> Add in a bad day "on the road" and it could have just been "one of those
> days", regretted by all. We all have them.

Always possible. That's why I didn't tee off on him to begin with. I
know even >> I << have been misunderstood at times! You betcha!

> However, and strictly my opinion you understand, men who dye their hair at
> 55, and are artists to boot, well ...
>
> ... you fill in the blanks. ;)

Damnit, I was trying to let that go. when I saw that haircut and dye
job, he reminded me of this older lady I do a lot of routine
maintenance for at her house.

She is in her mid 70s, and dyes here hair such a dark brown it is
almost black. I think she believes she has fooled everyone about her
real color, but it looks like she has a piece of black carpet draped
on her head. Their hair styles and colors are strikingly similar...

LMAO!

Shame on you Karl!

Robert

<[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...

>
> Marks may be the guy in front of the camera, but the people behind the
> camera are people who actually perform.

I would change that to say "Marks may be the guy in front of the camera but
the people behind the camera also perform". Granted there are people behind
the scenes and Marks openly acknowledges that, but they are doing work at
his direction. You can't take away from the guy what he rightfully
deserves. The only reason those people are behind the scenes is because of
production schedules, not because he lacks the talent to do it.

> Same as Norm.

Hey - genuflect when you say that...

> It would
> interesting to see how crappy or good his work is if the camera never
> left the work piece and no one else was allowed near it until
> completion.

I doubt either of them would turn out a crappy piece of work.

>
> Most of the people I know are either very good at construction methods
> or very good at a finish, but seldom both. We are all in too much of
> a rush. When I show off my work I get the oohs and aahs but few
> people see the screw ups. I see them all and am my own worst critic.
>

Most of the talented people I know are indeed good at both. That's part of
what makes us call them talented.

> To be publicly harshly critical of someone else is way out of line and
> hardly constructive. For that Marks get low marks. Maybe that's
> how Marks is to everyone off camera. Or maybe he really was having a
> bad day.


Agreed.

>
> As a critique of my own, his projects have the look of 10th grade
> industrial arts projects. Using exotic woods doesn't make them
> better.
>

I'm no fan of his work either. I can though, appreciate his talent.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On May 1, 12:17=A0pm, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote
>
> > I was critical of his own work earlier, but not the hair. =A0That's too
> > personal. =A0 But has anyone noticed that his black brylcreamed hair
> > gathers no wood dust? =A0What's the secret?
>
> That's too easy ... he doesn't do the actual work. :)
>
> This is TV, son ... what you see has no bearing whatsoever on reality.
>
> Why do you think politicians can get away with what they do, eh? (besides
> the rampant stupidity/apathy of the populace, that is)
>
> Don't get me wrong, I like DJM immensely and have a lot or respect for wha=
t
> he does do, but I'm also well versed in the realities of TV/video
> production.
>
Soooooo.. are you saying that when Julia Childs slid a roast in the
oven, and took it out 45 seconds later....it COULD have been
shenanigans/video/time-lapse kinda trickery? Is that why my 20-second
souffles were always very runny?

r

"Leon" wrote in message
> BUT ROBERT!
>
> If you don't watch commercials, how do you know when the new "in" thing
has
> arrived? ;~)

Your kid(s) ... college age or less?

Well, maybe not yours ... he's too smart to fall for the crap. :)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 3/27/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On May 6, 1:02=A0am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On May 5, 2:28 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > BUT ROBERT!
>
> > If you don't watch commercials, how do you know when =A0the new "in" thi=
ng has
> > arrived? =A0;~)
>
> I rarely know when the "in" thing has arrived. =A0I am sometimes the
> last one to find out things that are cool. =A0Sadly, it's been that way
> for years.
>
I DO know when things have run their course. I'm ripping out all kinds
of Hunter Green countertops... laminate and solid surface.
A few years back, it was 'Coral' aka pink.
Add to that scores of almond fridges and stoves...but they are now
coming back as....linen or bisque. (A bit lighter, but bone-almond
nonetheless.)
Now I have to find the sumbiatch who was wiping white paint all over
oak and then staining it....

And would you look at some of kids putting their hair in
beehives...thank you, you skank Winehouse, you!!

On Apr 30, 7:38=A0am, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Apr 30, 7:13=A0am, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > <[email protected]> wrote
>
> > > Marks did not know that they "instructor" was standing right there
> > > with him, and his words cut really deep. =A0As for me, I saw the table=

> > > and I must say I have seen better and I have seen worse. =A0(Although,=
I
> > > must say in Marks' defense that the finish looked like it was put on
> > > with a flooring trowel.)
> > > In my opinion, Marks was wrong.
>
> > I don't know Marks at all, so I can't say.
>
> > However, and unless/until you've dealt with the truly artistic on a
> > professional level, you have no idea how critical they can be of other's=
of
> > the same ilk, and at the same time be completely crushed by the tiniest
> > criticism of their own efforts ... it appears both these elements appear=
in
> > your story. :)
>
> > I will say that I've had similar experiences in the studio being _forced=
_ to
> > make judgments about songs, music, vocals, etc. as to suitability for
> > recording and/or including in a project, and I'm probably more like Mark=
's
> > was at that particular moment ... if it sucks, it sucks, and it certainl=
y
> > won't make the creator/artist a better songwriter/musician to be told ho=
w
> > wonderful their bad song/part is.
>
> > AAMOF, you are ultimately, and in reality, doing them a favor, not to
> > mention doing what you're paid to do.
>
> > That said, a considerate person will usually insure that constructive, o=
r
> > destructive as the case may be, criticism always includes suggestions fo=
r
> > improvement. In the studio where 'magic musical moments' are the most so=
ught
> > after pearls, it is imperative because a creative person can be so crush=
ed
> > as to no longer be able to perform.
>
> > Sound familiar?
>
> What we are talking about is the long lost art of 'tact'.
> Compliments roll off some people's tongues and sound plastic and
> phoney.
> The finish on that table that Robert talks about could have been
> discussed in a more constructive manner.
> "I can see the effort that went into that table, the finish, however,
> could be enhanced to help bring out the beauty of the
> work.".........."THIS is what I would suggest you try:...yadda, yadda,
> yadda...."
>
> Constructive criticism, a helpful hand, everybody wins.
>
> Now, in the music business...LOL...life's a little different. One must
> Clintonize one's possible competition. "You suck!" is a perfectly
> normal way to respond to an upstart's performance. Take that sumbiatch
> DOWN before he/she steals my gig.
> Helpful hands and friendships are rare in the music business.
> As David Clayton Thomas once said: "just play the notes, you're
> nothing but a tube of fucking paint to me, *I* am the artist."
> It's an industry based on destruction... for the most part.
>
> r- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thats similar to some places in the IT world. I try to be the person
who always has nice things to say about my coworkers stuff...but I
find myself trashing unknown IT people who work for other
companies(vendors, competitors etc) I really dont meant to, but
sometimes you just look at something someone has done, and you wonder
"what the hell were they thinking". Bu then, I look at my code, or
some project that is a few months old, and I think "what the hell was
I thinking"....

But you are right, tact just isnt there anymore.

On Apr 30, 11:36=A0am, evodawg <[email protected]> wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>
> > <[email protected]> wrote
>
> >> Marks did not know that they "instructor" was standing right there
> >> with him, and his words cut really deep. =A0As for me, I saw the table
> >> and I must say I have seen better and I have seen worse. =A0(Although, =
I
> >> must say in Marks' defense that the finish looked like it was put on
> >> with a flooring trowel.)
>
> >> In my opinion, Marks was wrong.
>
> > I don't know Marks at all, so I can't say.
>
> > However, and unless/until you've dealt with the truly artistic on a
> > professional level, you have no idea how critical they can be of other's=

> > of the same ilk, and at the same time be completely crushed by the tinie=
st
> > criticism of their own efforts ... it appears both these elements appear=

> > in your story. :)
>
> > I will say that I've had similar experiences in the studio being _forced=
_
> > to make judgments about songs, music, vocals, etc. as to suitability for=

> > recording and/or including in a project, and I'm probably more like Mark=
's
> > was at that particular moment ... if it sucks, it sucks, and it certainl=
y
> > won't make the creator/artist a better songwriter/musician to be told ho=
w
> > wonderful their bad song/part is.
>
> > AAMOF, you are ultimately, and in reality, doing them a favor, not to
> > mention doing what you're paid to do.
>
> > That said, a considerate person will usually insure that constructive, o=
r
> > destructive as the case may be, criticism always includes suggestions fo=
r
> > improvement. In the studio where 'magic musical moments' are the most
> > sought after pearls, it is imperative because a creative person can be s=
o
> > crushed as to no longer be able to perform.
>
> > Sound familiar?
>
> Think music and woodworking are two different talents. In music, vocals or=

> composing you either have it or you don't. Woodworking, talent can be
> taught or developed. A true woodworking artist takes time to develop. A
> true musical artist is a god given talent.
>
> So yes it is a good idea to let the less talented musician know right away=

> he sucks. Let the woodworker develop his talent without critical criticism=
.
>

Fair enough.

r

On Apr 30, 6:13 am, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:

> I don't know Marks at all, so I can't say.

Nor do I. And as noted, maybe it was a bad day for him.

> However, and unless/until you've dealt with the truly artistic on a
> professional level, you have no idea how critical they can be of other's of
> the same ilk, and at the same time be completely crushed by the tiniest
> criticism of their own efforts ... it appears both these elements appear in
> your story. :)

I do have a good idea, and I have never liked "those kinds of guys".
One thing I learned over nearly 35 years of getting paid as a
professional woodworker is this: No matter how good you are, there is
always someone better.

With so many years in the trades, and with so many of them being self
employed (27.... crap!) I have done a great deal of carpentry work.
One thing I learned really well after a few years in the trades was a
proper perspective on the endless arena of woodworking. I have
learned that just because you can do one or two (or three) thing well,
it doesn't mean you are a master at all aspects.

In the bigger picture, I spent time working for a financial
institution managing their construction portfolio. So if a "Marks"
comes to me when I was in banking and cannot correctly calculate the
compounding per diem interest or APR on a floating rate interim loan
(which as you know is typical for most aspects of construction
financing), should I have belittled him?

I had those folks come in all the time with their HP12c calculators
and try like hell to figure out what their financing was costing them
when they had a building principal as project went on. When I saw
their calculations (which by the way, were NEVER right) I didn't make
them ashamed of their efforts.

The guys that went to meet Marks are not, were not, and don't intend
to be professionals. If they were, it would have been a totally
different situation. Personally, I keep my mouth shut as to what I
think of most people's work, unless they are working for me, or with
me. On my dime, I try to be as constructive as possible, as quick to
praise as I am to criticize, but the guys on the job ARE
professionals, and a thicker hide is needed when certain expectations
of quality are expected simply because they are pros.

> I will say that I've had similar experiences in the studio being _forced_ to
> make judgments about songs, music, vocals, etc. as to suitability for
> recording and/or including in a project, and I'm probably more like Mark's
> was at that particular moment ... if it sucks, it sucks, and it certainly
> won't make the creator/artist a better songwriter/musician to be told how
> wonderful their bad song/part is.

If they are asking you pointedly for your opinion as one professional
musician to another, you shouldn't fudge too much. I think you should
tell them the truth, and as unvarnished as possible without destroying
them. I have had many a woodworking compatriot strike out on their
own after doing a couple of nice jobs, only to find that one of the
real talents of being a professional woodworker is to be able to pay
one's bills.

> AAMOF, you are ultimately, and in reality, doing them a favor, not to
> mention doing what you're paid to do.
>
> That said, a considerate person will usually insure that constructive, or
> destructive as the case may be, criticism always includes suggestions for
> improvement. In the studio where 'magic musical moments' are the most sought
> after pearls, it is imperative because a creative person can be so crushed
> as to no longer be able to perform.
>
> Sound familiar?

Yes it does. But we are talking about two different things. You are
writing about interfacing as one professional to another (or maybe to
an aspiring professional). I have had many a candid talk with fellow
professionals about different aspects of our own work, and I have no
problem admitting my own shortcomings in certain aspects of
woodworking.

For example, if I cut a roof, I can spend an extra week cutting in
valley rafters, jacks and compound cut soldier walls for tile. I can
get it done, but it is painful. I had a guy that worked for me for
years that loved to cut in roofs and took a lot of pride in cutting in
full hip roofs. He was easily 3-4 times faster than me. But, if we
needed to modify a or make a cabinet, he was totally lost.

Oversize crown molding was a mystery greater than Stonehenge to that
guy, and while I truly admired his skills at the beautiful hip roofs
he would cut (there was almost no cutting the sheathing to compensate
for an off cut, ever) he thought I was the better carpenter because I
could build/rebuild cabinets and build doors and frames from
scratch. We tried to help each other along in our deficiencies, but
actually had little luck. But that was one pro to another, done with
respect for one another's talents. No harm, no foul. We had been
around the block enough times to realize you can't excel at all
aspects of woodworking.

Marks' visit was a one time, few hour visit where he was facing a
serious case of leg rash from hero worship at best. He was not there
to instruct, critique, or judge projects. He was there to be the guy
on TV. If his audience had been students or fellow professionals,
then I probably wouldn't have cared. Most "artists" seem to be
arrogant insecure pricks, and poor behavior seems to be a hallmark of
accomplishment these days. I am not saying that describes Marks.

A revisit:

>However, and unless/until you've dealt with the truly >artistic on a
>professional level, you have no idea how critical they can >be of other's of
>the same ilk, and at the same time be completely crushed >by the tiniest
>criticism of their own efforts

A good observation. But upon reflection it also extends to the psuedo
artists as well. I no longer participate in our local woodturning
club due to the unbridled snobbery those in the club show to each
other. I think the club should be an open door for all to participate
on all levels. Everyone should be encouraged to have fun and try
different things, no matter the success or failure.

It isn't that way though, as many of the guys in the club have been
"serious turners" for as much as five years! Say it ain't so! And by
the time they jangle their memory a little, add in a high school
semester of shop and watching Dave Hout on DIY, they can easily claim
ten years. So they have to be experts, right?

A grand lesson in humility was learned by them (too bad it didn't
stick) when we had a fantastic turner come in for a demo a couple of
years ago. He looked at some of the work on a table the guys had
brought for "judging" between themselves. He thought he was there to
"critique" not pick the best piece. So, instead of someone getting
bragging rights for a job well done, it went completely the other way.

He didn't want to know at first who did what. So he would hold up the
piece and say things like "I'm not sure what he was going for here, so
maybe someone should pipe in and tell me what they were trying to do",
or " I assume this was done on purpose ?!? ". One of our red faced
artists had to own up to their own work, and take the criticism. It
was done with some grace and tact, but the unvarnished truth was too
harsh for many.

Their mutual admiration society took a real hard hit, and as you
observed, the haughtiest of the artists were the most severely
wounded. They were OK the next meeting, but then in subsequent
meetings the decided they had been treated unfairly and that person
wouldn't be asked back. To me, he was a breath of fresh air.

I don't know when an "artist" becomes and "artist" but I hope I don't
ever become one. Seems too hard.

OK.... this time I mean it. Off the box.

Robert

On Apr 30, 3:36 pm, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:

> I didn't intend to condone boorish behavior in my earlier remarks; I was
> simply wondering if perhaps the recipients didn't bring some of their
> misery upon themselves by being somewhat boorish in their own treatment
> of a (albeit paid) guest?

I didn't see the boorish behavior, and don't think he took their
attitude that way. The attitude from him seemed to be that he hadn't
seen anything there to impress him, so it was a waste of time.

And in truth, I may be a little sensitive to this kind of behavior. I
absolutely f**cking hate snobs, snobbery, and anything that goes with
it. Most snobs are like a one note samba, they do one thing well, and
that's it. Their whole claim to fame is one thing in their life...

Had I been part of that club, he would have indeed seen boorish
behavior if he had fired off on one of my amigos that was too shy to
speak up. I can be short tempered, really profane, and extremely
confrontational with that type of guy or gal. However, it wasn't my
place as I wasn't there except as a guest. I don't belong to the
woodworking club, and in the end, sometimes folks get treated as badly
as they will allow themselves to be treated.

Robert

On May 1, 9:36 pm, LRod <[email protected]> wrote:

> It was just as if he'd been one of the forum regulars, himself. There
> wasn't a bit of pretense or arrogance. Just a regular guy. I'll bet he
> stayed there four or five hours.

SNIP

Sounds like you had a fine experience with him. It sounds like a
personally rewarding experience.

SNIP

> You weren't clear on whether you were actually there or not, but there
> is one other possibility (if you weren't) and that's that somehow
> someone got their nose out of joint, and that the real story isn't
> exactly the way it was told to you. Of course if you were there, I
> accept that it's an accurate rendition, if not even more puzzling.

To be fair, I was at the store when he was there, but not standing IN
FRONT of him when he made his remarks. It was easy to catch the
brusque attitude and some of the remarks. It was easier still for me
to talk to the store manager whom was a good friend, known to me to be
without exaggeration. To be blunt, he felt like they got screwed
because he was expecting Marks to be as you portray him. Marks was
still in the store when I started hearing how things went from the
manager and some of the other guys I know and trust.

Your point about someone's nose being out of joint was well stated and
pertinent. But to expand on that a bit, you can see the difference in
how he treated a plane made from an edger blade in your experience to
how things were handled when he was here. And again, I heard the same
story from they guys that were standing there when it was said, the
same exact remarks from 3 - 4 guys and the store manager. And it was
told with no time to rehearse as Marks was still in the store.

I was not part of their meeting because at the time I had no earthly
idea who Marks was. I don't have cable, and had never even seen him
on television until about 6 months ago. To this day I have only seen
about 10 of his shows, and I don't know that I have watched one from
start to finish. I was not there at the store to see him and didn't
know he was going to be there.

It was a rare trip to Woodcraft for some woodturning supplies and to
gab a bit with the asst. manager that is one of the finest woodworkers
I have ever met. Great guy, too.

So I had no feelings to get hurt, no star worship to crush, no ax to
grind, not looking for bragging right due to meeting him, and wasn't
looking for a new best friend.

I had no preconceived ideas of him (so no ulterior motives) and
frankly couldn't have cared less about him or why he was there. When
they told me Marks was coming I was interested due to the in store
buzz, but since there was not to be a demo of any type I was
uninterested to even find out who he was. When they told me he was
there as a guest of WC, I surmised he was just another corporate
shill. I caught small bits and pieces of his conversations, and I
wasn't really sure why he was there.

> Well, I still like the David Marks I met. I probably wouldn't have
> cared much for the one you described. It's too bad that stories like
> this get told (true or not). It only takes one aberrant encounter to
> seriously tarnish an image.

Not really. I think that all remarks made here were made with respect
for him and always regard the fact (Hey... I started it, too!) that he
may have simply had a bad day. Really, you know we all have them. I
didn't see anyone flame him, trash him, or belittle him in any way.
Everyone here seemed pretty damn civil if you ask me.

And what side of Marks do you think will be seen the most? A small
thread on a almost dead woodworking group that has had all of ten
people participate in it? A thread where nothing terrible or
horrifying has been exposed? No excitement here, that's for sure.

Or the side presented by him on that video that shows him as an easy
going, easy to talk to guy that started out making redwood tables? A
video that has no doubt been seen all over the world by who knows how
many people since it was distributed?

I think Marks is unscathed. Personally, I think that folks that have
fond memories of an encounter are unlikely to change their opinions of
someone they know and respect due to a contemplative commentary posted
on the internet.

Now the guy I would like to meet (as I have said here before) is
Norm. He has been to the WC store a couple of time here and once to a
woodworking show. But he is like a rock star, he has a lot of folks
around him all the time. But I did get to talk to some guys that sat
at the back of the store and had lunch with him, and they said he was
the nicest, most unassuming guy you would ever meet.

Although it is quite fashionable now to sneer at him and his
techniques, my opinion of him is undiminished. I don't care for his
finishing techniques, but hey.. they're his projects. But in respect
to him, regardless how many assistants he has, he has turned out some
great projects, and more importantly, inspired folks to get out in the
shop and do something for almost 20 years.

Now according to local lore, one of the things Norm mentioned when he
was here was that in the early days, he had NO help. He even swept up
at night. He did allow that he has help now as his schedule is so
full.

But think about it. Norm can hang a passage door, and even make it
for you. He can build kitchen cabinets, lawn furniture, different
styles of house furniture, build handy jigs, repair structural
framing, and build a blanket chest. That might be one season.

A park bench, a potting table, a grandfather clock, a baseball bat,
you name it. He has done more than anyone I know to build confidence
and inspire woodworkers to try just about anything.

Even though I have done all kinds of woodworking with my company (or
as an employee for a few of them) over the last 35 years for a
multitude of clients, I still watch Norm when I get a chance. I get a
kick out of him.

And still, after 20 years, I have never heard one whisper of anything
but great things about him.

My kinda guy.

Robert

Robert

On Apr 30, 3:03=A0pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Apr 30, 12:37 pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Remember what you were supposed to learn at your mother's knee?
>
> > "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything ay all".
>
> Amen, brother. =A0Some of those harmless little old retirees didn't
> deserve that treatment. =A0They were the ones that seem to take it the
> hardest.
>
> And they are so far off Marks' radar, I didn't understand why he
> couldn't have shown just a bit more decorum, if not consideration.
>
> Robert

Tact, brother... TACT.

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>
> However, and strictly my opinion you understand, men who dye their hair at
> 55, and are artists to boot, well ...
>

Hell, men who still have that much hair at 55 just piss me off in general.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Mike Marlow wrote:
> Robatoy - get with it man. It's Rachel Ray now, not Julia Childs. And
> Rachel Ray can slide anything she wants in my opinion. Of course, I'm
> speaking of the fact that she's a good upstate NY girl...

Enjoy her looks while you can - at the rate she's going she'll be
300lbs+ in a couple of years.

On May 5, 12:24 pm, LRod <[email protected]> wrote:

> All of the stations are doing those now. It's the bane of modern TV
> watching. Where it really annoys me is when the original programming
> has its own chyron with either subtitling or some other descriptive
> material,. fairly important to the content, and it gets covered up in
> reruns by an invitation to watch next Tuesday's something or other.

Man oh man, that's a pet peeve of mine. And something I saw starting
last year was the animated ads featuring all the people in a cast that
walk on the screen (all the way across) and pose while another graphic
swims around on the right finally forming a time and a date for that
show's cast to look at.

And I have no patience for the shows with commercials. If I can't see
it without interrruption, 99% of the time I won't watch it. The shows
aren't good enough to keep my attention. I will literally wander off
during commercial and come back after the show is over. No, I don't
have ADD, the shows just aren't good enough to keep my attention.

It started with the VCR, and auto-skip on commercials. I had been FF
through commercials for years, doing it manually, but the auto-skip
just made it too easy. And if a show doesn't grab me at the opening,
it's gone. I have no idea how anyone sits down to "watch" as show as
it is being broadcast anymore if it has commercials.

I have the finger on FF all the time on recorded shows, too. Much
better use of time, and much less aggravating when viewing TV.

Robert

Chris Friesen wrote:
...
> On the flip side, it's possible to learn most skills without having a
> talent for them...it's just more painful and takes longer.

But the level of skill won't approach that of somebody w/ talent who
also hones their skill.

Most will not become Tiger no matter how much golf they play.

--

"depictureboy" <[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:d41fd947-66da-40eb-afbf-eaafe272ef99@x35g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...=

On Apr 30, 7:38 am, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Apr 30, 7:13 am, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> BIG SNIP
>
>sometimes you just look at something someone has done, and you wonder
>"what the hell were they thinking". Bu then, I look at my code, or
>some project that is a few months old, and I think "what the hell was
>I thinking"....
>
>But you are right, tact just isnt there anymore.

Come back after a couple of years and you will wonder how the hell it =
ever worked. Happened to me on one of my first efforts and I ended up a =
systems engineer.

P D Q

Swingman wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote
>
>> Marks did not know that they "instructor" was standing right there
>> with him, and his words cut really deep. ...
>
>> In my opinion, Marks was wrong.
>
> I don't know Marks at all, so I can't say.
>
> However, and unless/until you've dealt with the truly artistic on a
> professional level, you have no idea how critical they can be of other's of
> the same ilk, and at the same time be completely crushed by the tiniest
> criticism of their own efforts ... it appears both these elements appear in
> your story. :)
...

Reading the story my take is the folks at the store and in the club are
probably at least equally at fault for taking excessive advantage of an
event for their own purposes...

--

[email protected] wrote:
> On Apr 30, 1:10 pm, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Reading the story my take is the folks at the store and in the club are
>> probably at least equally at fault for taking excessive advantage of an
>> event for their own purposes...
>
> In what way?

The "want to touch and be touched" by the celebrity phenomenon. Talked
of treating the visit as the second coming...just the observation of how
people (especially groups) can act in such circumstances.

--

[email protected] wrote:
...
> Marks' visit was a one time, few hour visit where he was facing a
> serious case of leg rash from hero worship at best. He was not there
> to instruct, critique, or judge projects. He was there to be the guy
> on TV. ...
...

That's what I was thinking -- they were trying to get something out of
the visit that was unintended and resulted in unintended consequences
(probably) on both sides...

--

[email protected] wrote:
> On Apr 30, 6:13 am, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
...
>> However, and unless/until you've dealt with the truly artistic on a
>> professional level, ...
>
> I do have a good idea, and I have never liked "those kinds of guys".
> One thing I learned over nearly 35 years of getting paid as a
> professional woodworker is this: No matter how good you are, there is
> always someone better.
...

Amen, brother!

I am not professional woodworker nor have ever been although have done a
lot over the years from rough framing to furniture and have used it as
means for enhancing income or as second business (altho that's been a
long time ago now) and was "good enough" to at least make that work.

My career was as engineer and I worked with and supervised enough who
were (or, more generally wanted to be) good enough to be treated as
something special. Unilaterally, we did without or they learned
(sometimes in painful ways) to treat their colleagues as they would expect.

I didn't intend to condone boorish behavior in my earlier remarks; I was
simply wondering if perhaps the recipients didn't bring some of their
misery upon themselves by being somewhat boorish in their own treatment
of a (albeit paid) guest?

--

[email protected] wrote:
> On Apr 30, 3:20 pm, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
...
> The WC folks were not pleased, though. The owner's rep told me that
> they expected Marks to be there as an ambassador for woodworking, have
> a little fun, and to shake a few hands an kiss a few babies. Marks
> cost them business and teaching income. He was paid to do a job, and
> he didn't do it. Worse, in the end it went the opposite way it was
> supposed to go.
>
> Still, my comments were on his behavior, not the man. I hope he was
> just having a bad day.


Hard to say...ideally it would have gone as you and WC expected. I have
no idea as you say about the man behind the image. If the mingling,
etc., was an expected part of his appearance and he bungled it; no
excuse. Whether he should have been polite and muddled thru even if it
wasn't, no argument. I just wondered if perhaps there might have been
at least some blame to share; but maybe not...

--

Frank Boettcher wrote:
...

> ?. If he were paid, as I assume he was, that is exactly the
> expectation that he should have.

Depends on what he was paid _for_. If it was to be seen and give a
demo/talk, that's one thing. If it was for that and he's mobbed w/ some
crowd, expected to judge some show, etc., ..., that's something else
again.

--

Somebody wrote:

>> I do have a good idea, and I have never liked "those kinds of
>> guys".
>> One thing I learned over nearly 35 years of getting paid as a
>> professional woodworker is this: No matter how good you are, there
>> is
>> always someone better.

Probably the one endeavor where it is easy to measure the ability of
the participants is commissioned sales.

There is only ONE objective, "Go to the Bank".

Commission statements reveal the pecking order in a hurry.

Lew

Robatoy wrote:

>>>>>> I agree, clearly you are behind the times. LOL Cool is not cool any
>>>>>> more, it's Phat and Sweet. Or is it Sweet and Phat?
>>>>> A truly accurate term that I have heard used is SICK.
>>>> I thought it was KEEN.
>>> Groovy?
>> Neato?
>
> Okay!! We have a winner!
You're right! That's just the cat's meow!

<[email protected]> wrote

> Marks did not know that they "instructor" was standing right there
> with him, and his words cut really deep. As for me, I saw the table
> and I must say I have seen better and I have seen worse. (Although, I
> must say in Marks' defense that the finish looked like it was put on
> with a flooring trowel.)

> In my opinion, Marks was wrong.

I don't know Marks at all, so I can't say.

However, and unless/until you've dealt with the truly artistic on a
professional level, you have no idea how critical they can be of other's of
the same ilk, and at the same time be completely crushed by the tiniest
criticism of their own efforts ... it appears both these elements appear in
your story. :)

I will say that I've had similar experiences in the studio being _forced_ to
make judgments about songs, music, vocals, etc. as to suitability for
recording and/or including in a project, and I'm probably more like Mark's
was at that particular moment ... if it sucks, it sucks, and it certainly
won't make the creator/artist a better songwriter/musician to be told how
wonderful their bad song/part is.

AAMOF, you are ultimately, and in reality, doing them a favor, not to
mention doing what you're paid to do.

That said, a considerate person will usually insure that constructive, or
destructive as the case may be, criticism always includes suggestions for
improvement. In the studio where 'magic musical moments' are the most sought
after pearls, it is imperative because a creative person can be so crushed
as to no longer be able to perform.

Sound familiar?

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 3/27/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

BUT ROBERT!

If you don't watch commercials, how do you know when the new "in" thing has
arrived? ;~)

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:f65cbb20-ee59-4f9c-886c-f2f7f4229bf6@y38g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
> On May 5, 12:24 pm, LRod <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> All of the stations are doing those now. It's the bane of modern TV
>> watching. Where it really annoys me is when the original programming
>> has its own chyron with either subtitling or some other descriptive
>> material,. fairly important to the content, and it gets covered up in
>> reruns by an invitation to watch next Tuesday's something or other.
>
> Man oh man, that's a pet peeve of mine. And something I saw starting
> last year was the animated ads featuring all the people in a cast that
> walk on the screen (all the way across) and pose while another graphic
> swims around on the right finally forming a time and a date for that
> show's cast to look at.
>
> And I have no patience for the shows with commercials. If I can't see
> it without interrruption, 99% of the time I won't watch it. The shows
> aren't good enough to keep my attention. I will literally wander off
> during commercial and come back after the show is over. No, I don't
> have ADD, the shows just aren't good enough to keep my attention.
>
> It started with the VCR, and auto-skip on commercials. I had been FF
> through commercials for years, doing it manually, but the auto-skip
> just made it too easy. And if a show doesn't grab me at the opening,
> it's gone. I have no idea how anyone sits down to "watch" as show as
> it is being broadcast anymore if it has commercials.
>
> I have the finger on FF all the time on recorded shows, too. Much
> better use of time, and much less aggravating when viewing TV.
>
> Robert

Charlie Self wrote:

> On Apr 30, 8:59 pm, Tom Watson <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 11:00:21 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
>>
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >And a mime is a terrible thing to waste.
>>
>> Actually, I'd waste a mime in a heartbeat.
>>
>> Simpering little shits.
>>
>> The way I heard it was, " A behind is a terrble thing to waste."
>>
>> Tom Watson
>> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnetwww.home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
>
> When I realized my first wife enjoyed mimes, I knew the marriage was
> in trouble.

What the hell are mimes??????????? Whatever they are it sounds like I'm
lucky not to know.

--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586

"i82much" wrote

> Here in southern Calif "WoodsmithShop" just started airing on PBS
> The shows I've seen deal with the basic wwing process

We've got them on PBS here also. Although I've set the DVR to record them
just in case, the "WoodsmithShop" content thus far have been a bit too basic
to keep for my purposes, although I'm glad to see that ww shows are still
being produced and run on PBS.

AAMOF, I wish I still had the original versions I recorded from PBS of "Wood
Works" (lost them on a DVR that went south before I had a chance to xfer
them to DVD), as the DIY versions are full of DIY's inane commercial
bullshit, including pop up screens over the content on occasion ... damned
American commercial greed.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 3/27/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

<[email protected]> wrote

> I was critical of his own work earlier, but not the hair. That's too
> personal. But has anyone noticed that his black brylcreamed hair
> gathers no wood dust? What's the secret?

That's too easy ... he doesn't do the actual work. :)

This is TV, son ... what you see has no bearing whatsoever on reality.

Why do you think politicians can get away with what they do, eh? (besides
the rampant stupidity/apathy of the populace, that is)

Don't get me wrong, I like DJM immensely and have a lot or respect for what
he does do, but I'm also well versed in the realities of TV/video
production.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 3/27/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 00:12:26 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>Marks did not know that they "instructor" was standing right there
>with him, and his words cut really deep. As for me, I saw the table
>and I must say I have seen better and I have seen worse. (Although, I
>must say in Marks' defense that the finish looked like it was put on
>with a flooring trowel.)
>

>
>In my opinion, Marks was wrong.
>
I've never met him.

I get the impresssion from your post that he was being paid for a PR
visit. Certainly a different standard than if he was running his
school. Almost an imperative that one be constructive and courteous
with comments, particularly in a group of people of diverse skill
levels.

I've been around Norm Abram, and to a lesser extent, Scott Phillips,
for a number of paid PR sessions and with them socially before or
after the sessions. Despite the fact that they were confronted with a
full spectrum of personalities and skill levels (some I'm sure, more
skilled then they are), they were always gracious. And even with the
guard dropped, you never heard after the fact, "boy, what a bunch of
jerks, glad thats over".

From the part of the video I watched, I concluded that Marks was
through with sponsorship and out of the business of payment for PR.
Maybe that's a good thing, he may be too artistic and not have the
patience for it.

Frank

On Mon, 5 May 2008 07:46:23 -0500, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"LRod" wrote
>> Was WoodWorks ever on PBS? I thought that was a DIY original.
>
>You're right ... I've always used a DVR to record WoodWorks because I was
>usually gone on Saturday nights. I _thought_ I remembered the original shows
>without commercial interruption, which could only have happened on PBS.
>
>I'm definitely making a conscious effort to do less thinking as time goes
>by, apparently for good reason ...
>
>> remember David mentioning as he was describing the production process
>> the voiceover work he had to do in post including the extremely
>> annoying "when we come back..." and "previously on our project..."
>> segments bracketing the commercials.
>
>Currently recording the ones I lost and I certainly don't remember all the
>aggravating crap DIY flashes on the screen during the actual "re-run"
>content.

All of the stations are doing those now. It's the bane of modern TV
watching. Where it really annoys me is when the original programming
has its own chyron with either subtitling or some other descriptive
material,. fairly important to the content, and it gets covered up in
reruns by an invitation to watch next Tuesday's something or other.



--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net
http://www.normstools.com

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:25bb9dfa-96fe-4914-869f-553674b064d8@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On May 5, 2:28 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> BUT ROBERT!
>>
>> If you don't watch commercials, how do you know when the new "in" thing
>> has
>> arrived? ;~)
>
> I rarely know when the "in" thing has arrived. I am sometimes the
> last one to find out things that are cool. Sadly, it's been that way
> for years.

I agree, clearly you are behind the times. LOL Cool is not cool any more,
it's Phat and Sweet. Or is it Sweet and Phat?


> But I have found that there are plenty of people around that will
> gladly tell me what to think.

Noooo kidding.

On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 13:29:12 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>That is a sign of folks that are "on the path" to me, realizing that
>no matter where you are in your skill sets, there is more to the whole
>picture than can be learned.

I've been involved in several pursuits that fit that definition
exactly.

Woodworking is obvious.

Then there's music and flying. You can never know it all...

---------------------------------------------
** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------

On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 16:39:37 -0500, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:

>

>
>However, and strictly my opinion you understand, men who dye their hair at
>55,
>
>... you fill in the blanks. ;)


Well, I considered it, however, procrastination has resulted in an
ever declining need since it has become much harder to gather up
something to dye. :)

Frank

On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 17:37:49 GMT, "Lew Hodgett"
<[email protected]> wrote:


>
>Remember what you were supposed to learn at your mother's knee?
>
>"If you can't say something nice, don't say anything ay all".
>
>Lew
>
>
>
>

This could turn the entire planet into a mime show.





Tom Watson
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet
www.home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1

On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 11:00:21 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
<[email protected]> wrote:


>>
>And a mime is a terrible thing to waste.


Mime is money!

---------------------------------------------
** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------

On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 00:12:26 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

[little snip]

>He came to our sunny town about three years ago shilling something for
>Woodcraft.

[big snip]

It makes me sad to hear this story. Although I can't count him among
those on my Christmas card list, I have met him and it is impossible
for me to connect the experience I had with the one you described.
Have to be two different people. I'm not arguing that it happened, it
just doesn't jibe with mine.

Just for background, a bunch of locals (Central Florida) who are
co-conspirators on some of the woodworking fora, were having a picnic
get together three or four years ago and it happened to be on a day
that Woodcraft had Marks in for some sessions. One of the locals got
the bright idea to invite him to join us after the day's sessions were
over, and he accepted (actually I think it was Victoria who accepted,
but it doesn't matter, they both showed up).

It was just as if he'd been one of the forum regulars, himself. There
wasn't a bit of pretense or arrogance. Just a regular guy. I'll bet he
stayed there four or five hours. Naturally, he was the most
experienced and professional guy there, not to mention celebrated, but
we all talked, shared stories, asked him about the show, he passed
around some pieces he had brought, but all in exactly the same way we
all (well, most) would sit around a fire if we wreckers got together.

As you say, he could have had a bad day, but even at that, it seems so
all out of proportion to the guy I sat and talked with all those
hours. And one of the other guys and I made a Krenov style plane that
afternoon before he arrived which we presented to him after dinner. It
had no finish on it, but it was a nice chunk of wood and the iron was
made out of an edger blade, but he acted as if Krenov himself had made
it for him.

You weren't clear on whether you were actually there or not, but there
is one other possibility (if you weren't) and that's that somehow
someone got their nose out of joint, and that the real story isn't
exactly the way it was told to you. Of course if you were there, I
accept that it's an accurate rendition, if not even more puzzling.

Well, I still like the David Marks I met. I probably wouldn't have
cared much for the one you described. It's too bad that stories like
this get told (true or not). It only takes one aberrant encounter to
seriously tarnish an image.




--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net
http://www.normstools.com

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

"Robatoy" wrote:

> I rarely know when the "in" thing has arrived. I am sometimes the
> last one to find out things that are cool. Sadly, it's been that way
> for years.

RE: Style

When it comes to style, I have a very straight forward position.

I AM THE STYLE.

If you are not wearing what I wear, get with the program, YOU are out
of style.

Next subject.

>And would you look at some of kids putting their hair in
>beehives...thank you, you skank Winehouse, you!!

Over the years have watched each generations hair styles as they
attempt to identify themselves.

I smile to myself and remember back when I was about 15 and wore a D/A
that I thought made me look like the cat's ass.

Lew

"[email protected]" <[email protected]> writes:
> That would be a guild I would love to join.

http://www.gnhw.org/

"The Guild of New Hampshire Woodworkers is an association of
professionals and amateurs bound by a common interest in
woodworking. Through regular meetings, lectures, demonstrations, a
video library of those demonstrations, juried exhibits, a newsletter
( The Old Saw ) and other activities, the Guild strives to bring
together the diverse interests of the New Hampshire woodworking
community."

If you're not in the area, though, the only real benefit is the Old
Saw magazine - and you can download old issues for free anyway.

"[email protected]" <[email protected]> writes:
> No matter how good you are, there is always someone better.

And no matter how much better that someone is, it doesn't mean he
doesn't have something to learn from you either.

In our guild, you can pick any two random people and be pretty much
guaranteed that each has something to teach the other.

I believe you have the type of attitude towards others the world really
needs to try and bring back. I know my woodworking is still on a novice
level, but a kind word from someone more accomplished sure encourages me to
continue. That kind word with helpful hints as the say is "priceless".

--
Mike
Watch for the bounce.
If ya didn't see it, ya didn't feel it.
If ya see it, it didn't go off.
Old Air Force Munitions Saying
IYAAYAS
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> You know Swing, that was a pretty good video. I was surprised to see
> how accessible and easy going Marks was.
>
> He came to our sunny town about three years ago shilling something for
> Woodcraft. Here for the day only, it was treated as the second
> coming. The boys of the woodworking club and the staff at WC were
> positively giddy with excitement.
>
> He got here, and by all accounts, he was abrupt and hurried. It was
> obvious that it was an obligation. He did not want to share
> woodworking stories with any of them, and made that clear. But he
> really rubbed the woodworking club members the wrong way at his
> reaction to a piece they brought forward for his blessing.
>
> One of the guys had made one of Marks' tables, and had gotten so many
> compliments on it that he decided to teach others how to make it.
> (That meant he was now a woodworking instructor, right?) This guy had
> made several of these tables along with his classes, and was feeling
> pretty good about his work.
>
> Without knowing who the instructor or artisan actually was, he looked
> over the table and rendered a pretty seething commentary on how it was
> made, how the joints were assembled, how the veneer trims were
> installed and really hammered the finish.
>
> Marks did not know that they "instructor" was standing right there
> with him, and his words cut really deep. As for me, I saw the table
> and I must say I have seen better and I have seen worse. (Although, I
> must say in Marks' defense that the finish looked like it was put on
> with a flooring trowel.)
>
> Maybe he was rushed, maybe he didn't want to be there, maybe there was
> trouble at home, who knows. But he cut so deeply that the guy quit
> his instruction and won't teach anyone anything anymore.
>
> In my opinion, Marks was wrong. There were all these older retirees,
> younger hobby guys, garage woodworkers, etc., that were just looking
> for a pat on the back. I know there are many that feel like the cold
> light of truth is always the best way to view things, but I am not one
> of them. Those guys knew there work wasn't perfect, they just wanted
> a nod and a "man, that looks nice". They would have have been "proud
> to bust" and had bragging rights for 10 years over a compliment.
>
> And it isn't like these guys were even trying to make it as cabinet or
> furniture makers. I get a charge out of some of them as they told me
> that it takes so damn long for them to do anything that they would
> starve to death unless they charged by the hour. But, the allow that
> if they charged by the hour they would be rich!
>
> Since I do this for a living like you do, I run into two different
> kinds of folks that do woodworking. There are those that don't want
> me to see their work. I always find ways to compliment them.
> Always. They turn beet red when their SO says from the kitchen
> "honey, did you show Robert the XXX you made?". I always finds
> something positive to say. On the other hand, from time to time I am
> surprised and run into a fellow that is as good as any professional,
> so it is easy to be complimentary. I find that most non-professional
> woodworkers have a good sense of humility, and are in the crafts to
> enjoy them more than anything else.
>
> The other kind is the one that cannot wait for me to see what he has
> done. These were the guys that were at the Marks show at WC. And
> yes, these guys get compliments, too. Why not? They aren't pros, and
> don't pretend to be. Sometimes they ask for tips, sometimes I offer
> one or two. It is always a positive experience. And if they turn out
> to be clients, more than once I have had wives come to me and tell me
> how much they appreciated me taking the time to examine a project and
> pass on some compliments.
>
> I think the art of a carefully crafted compliment is a good habit to
> have, and one that is also lost these days. It costs nothing, and
> given the right way you aren't pandering or insincere. But you can
> sure do a lot of good with it.
>
> I think it is interesting that Marks speaks highly of others and his
> students and assistants, and he seemed sincere in the video since he
> obviously didn't have to bring it up at all. And he was really nice
> to that young guy and his wife.
>
> Maybe when he came here he was just having a bad day.
>
> Off the soap box now.
>
> Robert
>