Early Morning Planning

Been seeing the Northern Lights up here in the UP also they are beautiful.


"Eric Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >I love this time of year, early morning before it's light, and nippy air
> >that
> > helps clear the head. Today, I need to cut some cabinet doors, and I
don't
> > want
> > to waste plywood, so I was standing outside thinking it out--this
> > sometimes
> > works better than pencil and paper--when I realized my rural area was
> > suffering
> > from a bit of light pollution that wasn't here a few years ago.
> >
> > I think it's these blasted dusk to dawn insurance lights. Every small
> > church
> > has at least five (insurance companies require them at every entrance
and
> > every
> > obstacle of certain types). Many houses, including one across the road,
> > and two
> > others a quarter mile up the road, have one.
> >
> > I guess those are basic directional pointers for thieves, much like a
sign
> > saying, "Hey, here's something worth stealing".
> >
> > But I did get the placement figured out for my two doors. I can warm the
> > shop
> > and get those cut today.
> >
> > Charlie Self
> > "The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed
(and
> > hence
> > clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of
> > hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." H. L. Mencken
>
> I don't mind the farmers when they are out near the livestock but I drive
by
> a place on the way to work and they have mercury vapor d.t.d. lights
> literally screwed to the north and south gable ends of their new country
> home. Makes me want to knock on the door and ask 'em if they're afraid of
> the dark why did they move out here.
> I was thinking you were going to mention the northern lights we've been
> seeing here in southern WI for the last few days. Now thats light
pollution
> I can live with.
>
> EJ
>
>

Wed, Nov 10, 2004, 10:11am (EST+5) [email protected]
(Charlie=A0Self) says:
I love this time of year, early morning before it's light, and nippy air
that helps clear the head. Today, I need to cut some cabinet doors, and
I don't want to waste plywood, so I was standing outside thinking it
out--this sometimes works better than pencil and paper <snip>

I do that, exactly the same way. Except later in the day.



JOAT
Viet Nam, divorce, cancer. Been there, done that. Now, where the Hell
are my T-shirts?

"Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I love this time of year, early morning before it's light, and nippy air
>that
> helps clear the head. Today, I need to cut some cabinet doors, and I don't
> want
> to waste plywood, so I was standing outside thinking it out--this
> sometimes
> works better than pencil and paper--when I realized my rural area was
> suffering
> from a bit of light pollution that wasn't here a few years ago.
>
> I think it's these blasted dusk to dawn insurance lights. Every small
> church
> has at least five (insurance companies require them at every entrance and
> every
> obstacle of certain types). Many houses, including one across the road,
> and two
> others a quarter mile up the road, have one.
>
> I guess those are basic directional pointers for thieves, much like a sign
> saying, "Hey, here's something worth stealing".
>
> But I did get the placement figured out for my two doors. I can warm the
> shop
> and get those cut today.
>
> Charlie Self
> "The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and
> hence
> clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of
> hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." H. L. Mencken

I don't mind the farmers when they are out near the livestock but I drive by
a place on the way to work and they have mercury vapor d.t.d. lights
literally screwed to the north and south gable ends of their new country
home. Makes me want to knock on the door and ask 'em if they're afraid of
the dark why did they move out here.
I was thinking you were going to mention the northern lights we've been
seeing here in southern WI for the last few days. Now thats light pollution
I can live with.

EJ

"Charlie Self"
>I love this time of year, early morning before it's light, and nippy air
>that
> helps clear the head. Today, I need to cut some cabinet doors, and I don't
> want
> to waste plywood, so I was standing outside thinking it out--this
> sometimes
> works better than pencil and paper--when I realized my rural area was
> suffering
> from a bit of light pollution that wasn't here a few years ago.
>
> I think it's these blasted dusk to dawn insurance lights. Every small
> church
> has at least five (insurance companies require them at every entrance and
> every
> obstacle of certain types). Many houses, including one across the road,
> and two
> others a quarter mile up the road, have one.

In a recent vacation to Kona Hawaii, I was struck by the lack of light in
the evenings. It didn't take long to figure out that the whole island has a
light restriction. The Keck Observatory. It really was nice, compared to
the virtual daylight of LA.

Palomar,North of San Diego also has light restrictions, but not nearly the
scale of the big island.

Dave

Ya, we try to get up to 12 mile beach once or twice a year, there isn't any
light pollution there yet..



"Doug Goulden" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Been seeing the Northern Lights up here in the UP also they are beautiful.

> Another is the insane amount of lighting auto dealers use to light their
> lots after business hours. It may be required by their insurance companies
> to protect millions of dollars of inventory, but that's not the point
> here. The lights could easily be properly shielded and directed to the
> ground, performing their intended function without waste. Sensible
> shielded lighting uses lower wattage bulbs to achieve the same effect,
> thus reducing the amount of reflected light.
>
> Bob

Bob, I am one of those insane auto dealers. We do use a significant amount
of light on our lots. The lamps are 1000w Metal Halide. They are shielded
and focused only to point down and trimed to stay on the lot but it still a
large amount of light. However, on the non-display areas we used HPS lamps
and they reduce the amount of bounced light. We do leave 20% of the display
lights on after hours for security.

I wish there was a better method.

Dave

>>>>Bob said: Another is the insane amount of lighting auto dealers <snip>
The lights could easily be properly shielded and
>>>> directed to the ground, <snip>
>>>
>>> Bob, I am one of those insane auto dealers. We do use a significant
>>> amount of light on our lots. The lamps are 1000w Metal Halide. They
>>> are
>>> shielded and focused only to point down and trimmed to stay on the lot
>>> but
>>> it still a large amount of light.<snip>

Bob again: 1,000 watt? There is a better method. Go here:
>> http://www.darksky.org/.
>>
>> They can help.

> John said: I'm curious--do they have a "better method" that renders colors
> with some
> accuracy when compared to their appearance in daylight? <snip>


Bob & John, I did visit the website and followed the link -
http://www.darksky.org/fixtures/areashoe.html

These are the same type we currently use. I was really hoping for a better
solution. In addition, I emailed them stating my situation and as yet - no
reply.

Dave

Sorry I just can't resist. About twenty years ago I was the !@#$%^&*
who raised electric rates. Done the expert witness thing etc. Two
points:

1-In most NA electrical systems the energy used for street lights
comes from a hydro, coal or nuclear unit. Rarely do we need to run an
oil fired unit to cover early AM load. Sorry we can't stop buying Mid
East oil for that use.

2-Yes, there is a stark difference in price from small customers to
medium and large ones. The larger customers buy their electricity at
higher voltages and the costs of those pole mounted transformers,
distribution wires, etc. don't exist. Second, they tend to buy a
higher percentage during those lower cost back hours. Third, it costs
just slightly more to read a meter and bill a large customer so there
can be a volume difference. Fourth, customer service costs are
generally lower so there can be a volume discount, big customers don't
call in nearly as often. Fifth, problems with no pay and slow pay are
higher with residential and small commercial customers so that is
factored into the rates. And it goes on.

The PUC is supposed to examine in detail whether a class of customers
is paying more or less than their "fair share". The large customers
have their own lawyers in the process and residential customers are
usually well represented by public advocates (well funded also usually
from your electric bill). The customers that tend to get "oppressed"
are the small commercial ones. That's why you want to avoid a
separate meter for your shop.

Yes a whole neighborhood can buy in bulk under some conditions. For
example many large apartment/condo buildings in NYC do just that.
However the building (neighborhood) then has to provide individual
billing, transfomers, meters etc. If its provided by the landlord
there is no savings. Otherwise there are some but offset by costs.

Final point-In states where you can buy your own energy (like TX) big
customers are doing relatively well, but the costs of marketing to and
serving small customers chews up a lot of the savings. Unfortunately
for TX they bet on many new natural gas generating units and their
fuel costs have doubled in the last two years raising costs on the
"free market" substantially.

Howard

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:8ipkd.501$lY1.380@trndny04...
> >
> > I wonder just how much oil we could save by turning out some lights.
> > Flying into a city airport in the wee hours I see thousands of street
> > lights, but don't see any traffic. Entire industrial parks are well lit
> > but no one working. Businesses have signs lit on their closed stores and
> > no on on the streets to read them. Just seems plain silly.
>
>
> Oddly, we could probably save a bundle of oil and or coal but it may cost us
> more for less light. A couple of years ago I went to the PUC web site to
> compare electricity charges by different companies that produce electricity.
> I was shocked to find that home owners pay about double the price that big
> users use. IIRC some where around 7500- 10,000 kwh of usage per month the
> price of electricity came in at 5 cents per kwh. I pay about 10 cents per
> kwh.
>
> I am sure there is some law against it but why couldn't a whole neighborhood
> be a single customer/customer and each home owner pay for his usage of that
> total billed to the neighborhood.

"Eric Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I don't mind the farmers when they are out near the livestock but I drive
by
> a place on the way to work and they have mercury vapor d.t.d. lights
> literally screwed to the north and south gable ends of their new country
> home. Makes me want to knock on the door and ask 'em if they're afraid of
> the dark why did they move out here.
> I was thinking you were going to mention the northern lights we've been
> seeing here in southern WI for the last few days. Now thats light
pollution
> I can live with.
>

I wholeheartedly agree with the "afraid of the dark" sentiment. I moved
about 50 miles away from Philly recently to rural (but growing - I can't
complain too much I guess - I'm part of the problem) Chester County. My
local development doesn't have street lights, per se, but relies on each
property's post lamp. It's enough that I can walk the pooch without breaking
a leg, but not so much that I can still stop, look up and see more stars
than the city-bound folk have ever seen.

Growth sucks, but every single one of us who moves off to "greener pastures"
is part of the problem. It's up to us to try to keep things as we want it. I
won't let them put street lights in once I'm a member of the home owner's
association. I like it quiet. I like it dark. I like the (relative)
solitude.

"TeamCasa" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> In a recent vacation to Kona Hawaii, I was struck by the lack of light in
> the evenings. It didn't take long to figure out that the whole island has
a
> light restriction. The Keck Observatory. It really was nice, compared to
> the virtual daylight of LA.
>

Might just have to move there. I'm bucking for a job that allows working
from home 100% of the time, so maybe this time next year it's worth
investigating. hmm.....

I do love my dark nights.

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:8ipkd.501$lY1.380@trndny04...
> >
> > I wonder just how much oil we could save by turning out some lights.
> > Flying into a city airport in the wee hours I see thousands of street
> > lights, but don't see any traffic. Entire industrial parks are well lit
> > but no one working. Businesses have signs lit on their closed stores and
> > no on on the streets to read them. Just seems plain silly.
>
>
> Oddly, we could probably save a bundle of oil and or coal but it may cost us
> more for less light. A couple of years ago I went to the PUC web site to
> compare electricity charges by different companies that produce electricity.
> I was shocked to find that home owners pay about double the price that big
> users use. IIRC some where around 7500- 10,000 kwh of usage per month the
> price of electricity came in at 5 cents per kwh. I pay about 10 cents per
> kwh.
>
> I am sure there is some law against it but why couldn't a whole neighborhood
> be a single customer/customer and each home owner pay for his usage of that
> total billed to the neighborhood.

I am sure that you could if you were willing to build out the
distribution network for the community and keep it maintained and do
all the individual billing and collections, with the inevitable bad
debt but you have to keep supplying them anyhow, and absorb the costs
during low usage periods when the overhead charge you apply doesn't
actually cover the overhead required to maintain sufficient capacity
to serve everyone's needs during the peak usage periods..... (any idea
what the cost is when a single neighborhhood step-down transformer
blows and needs replaced on an emergency basis while it is 10 below
outside)


Dave Hall

"Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message >
> I think it's these blasted dusk to dawn insurance lights. Every small
> church
> has at least five (insurance companies require them at every entrance and
> every
> obstacle of certain types). Many houses, including one across the road,
> and two
> others a quarter mile up the road, have one.
>
> I guess those are basic directional pointers for thieves, much like a sign
> saying, "Hey, here's something worth stealing".

I wonder just how much oil we could save by turning out some lights. Flying
into a city airport in the wee hours I see thousands of street lights, but
don't see any traffic. Entire industrial parks are well lit but no one
working. Businesses have signs lit on their closed stores and no on on the
streets to read them. Just seems plain silly.



>
> But I did get the placement figured out for my two doors. I can warm the
> shop
> and get those cut today.
>
> Charlie Self
> "The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and
> hence
> clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of
> hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." H. L. Mencken

"TeamCasa" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>> Another is the insane amount of lighting auto dealers use to light their
>> lots after business hours. It may be required by their insurance
>> companies to protect millions of dollars of inventory, but that's not the
>> point here. The lights could easily be properly shielded and directed to
>> the ground, performing their intended function without waste. Sensible
>> shielded lighting uses lower wattage bulbs to achieve the same effect,
>> thus reducing the amount of reflected light.
>>
>> Bob
>
> Bob, I am one of those insane auto dealers. We do use a significant
> amount of light on our lots. The lamps are 1000w Metal Halide. They are
> shielded and focused only to point down and trimed to stay on the lot but
> it still a large amount of light. However, on the non-display areas we
> used HPS lamps and they reduce the amount of bounced light. We do leave
> 20% of the display lights on after hours for security.
>
> I wish there was a better method.
>
> Dave

1,000 watt? There is a better method. Go here:
http://www.darksky.org/.

They can help.

Bob

"Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I love this time of year, early morning before it's light, and nippy air
>that
> helps clear the head. Today, I need to cut some cabinet doors, and I don't
> want
> to waste plywood, so I was standing outside thinking it out--this
> sometimes
> works better than pencil and paper--when I realized my rural area was
> suffering
> from a bit of light pollution that wasn't here a few years ago.
>
> I think it's these blasted dusk to dawn insurance lights. Every small
> church
> has at least five (insurance companies require them at every entrance and
> every
> obstacle of certain types). Many houses, including one across the road,
> and two
> others a quarter mile up the road, have one.

Sky & Telescope magazine, the Fine Woodworking of that hobby, estimates that
more than half the people in the world, and 2/3 of those in the United
States, cannot see the Milky Way. During the recent blackout in New York,
people were calling the police to report a strange huge cloud over the city.
Yep--our galaxy.

I have a famous poster of the United States (there's one of Europe also) at
night, taken by satellites, that shows the entire country lit by
unrestricted lighting. It's easy to pick out your own home town. The
question is, why are they visible from space? Aren't lights supposed to
illuminate the ground?

The loss of the night sky is not only saddening, it is unnecessary. As an
amateur astronomer I know that a high percentage of our lighting is
misdirected, and that proper shielding would not only preserve the sky
but--more importantly for most people--save huge amounts of money. San Diego
changed to a more sophisticated lighting some years ago and saved the
taxpayers about $300,000.

And of course we all know the effect of bright lighting in reducing crime?

The International Dark-Sky Association (http://www.darksky.org/) has drafted
sensible lighting ordinances that would both preserve the night sky AND our
security and safety. Rush Limbaugh has, of course, labeled them a bunch of
left-wing nuts. He's wrong--their purpose is simply as stated in the first
sentence of this paragraph.

Bob

"Chad Bender" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 12:18:43 -0500, TeamCasa wrote:
>
>> "Charlie Self"
>> In a recent vacation to Kona Hawaii, I was struck by the lack of light
>> in the evenings. It didn't take long to figure out that the whole
>> island has a light restriction. The Keck Observatory. It really was
>> nice, compared to the virtual daylight of LA.
>>
>> Palomar,North of San Diego also has light restrictions, but not nearly
>> the scale of the big island.
>>
>> Dave
>
> The light restrictions on the big island are certainly true. However,
> both Kona and Hilo still send a large quantity of light upwards. I've
> conducted astronomical observations several times a year over the past few
> years on the summit of Mauna Kea, and can vouch that both Kona and Hilo
> are quite bright at night. They certainly are not as bright as other
> cities of the same size that don't have light restrictions. But it is
> becoming a problem at the observatory. Waimea and Honokaa are also quite
> visible from the summit.
>
> What people seem to not understand is that lighting the sky does not
> provide added ground level security and also wastes energy. Using smartly
> designed lights that direct all of their light downward can make the
> street level considerably brighter and safer, while significantly reducing
> sky brightness and energy usage. Unfortunately, these light fixtures are
> generally more expensive up front, which seems to trump their long term
> energy efficiency benefits in most consumers minds.
>
> Chad

Chad's right. I'm also an amateur astronomer and can vouch for better
lighting. See my post elsewhere in thsi thread for information on the
International Dark-Sky Assocoation.
The price of sensible lighting fixtures is coming down, and the payback time
lessened considerably. A number of communities nationwide and around the
world have adopted reasonable lighting ordinances, but the problem is
growing. As long as we insist on providing circus lighting for our homes and
businesses it won't be solved.

Bob

"Howard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> 1-In most NA electrical systems the energy used for street lights
> comes from a hydro, coal or nuclear unit. Rarely do we need to run an
> oil fired unit to cover early AM load. Sorry we can't stop buying Mid
> East oil for that use.

OK maybe not oil, but we could burn less coal. There is still cost
associated with the lighting and if it is not needed, someone, someplace,
has to save money, pollute less or otherwise come out ahead.

Consider joining or contributing to the International Dark Sky Association"
http://www.darksky.org/ or, better yet, bringing their recommendations and
your concerns to the attention of the local/state government officials who
oversee public lighting.

These are exactly the problems they formed to combat and they have achieved
some success in some states and localities. Yes, outdoor lighting can be
designed to shine only in controlled directions (downward). In fact, its
more efficient (saves money) that way.

David Merrill

"Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> ... I was standing outside thinking it out--this sometimes
> works better than pencil and paper--when I realized my rural area was
suffering
> from a bit of light pollution that wasn't here a few years ago.
>
> I think it's these blasted dusk to dawn insurance lights. Every small
church
> has at least five (insurance companies require them at every entrance and
every
> obstacle of certain types). Many houses, including one across the road,
and two
> others a quarter mile up the road, have one.
> ...

"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:8ipkd.501$lY1.380@trndny04...
>
> I wonder just how much oil we could save by turning out some lights.
> Flying into a city airport in the wee hours I see thousands of street
> lights, but don't see any traffic. Entire industrial parks are well lit
> but no one working. Businesses have signs lit on their closed stores and
> no on on the streets to read them. Just seems plain silly.


Oddly, we could probably save a bundle of oil and or coal but it may cost us
more for less light. A couple of years ago I went to the PUC web site to
compare electricity charges by different companies that produce electricity.
I was shocked to find that home owners pay about double the price that big
users use. IIRC some where around 7500- 10,000 kwh of usage per month the
price of electricity came in at 5 cents per kwh. I pay about 10 cents per
kwh.

I am sure there is some law against it but why couldn't a whole neighborhood
be a single customer/customer and each home owner pay for his usage of that
total billed to the neighborhood.

> If you fly over the area at night you'll likely find that most of the
> streetlights are not "glaring upward". You'll see nicely illuminated
> little circles of ground with no bright spot in the middle.
>

I just flew from chicago to albany NY the night before last, and I was
amazed at the number of lights that still DO have a bright spot in the
middle. It was noticable enough so that the nicely illuminated circles of
ground (kinda orange, actually) were definitely a noticable minority.

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Chris Hornberger" wrote in message
>
> > Swingman - you have yourself one sweet little shop, there. Nice work.
> >
> > I'm still battling with the wife over just how much of the garage I get
as
> > "mine". So far I'm trying to do woodwork and a motorcycle restoration
(my
> > '82 Goldwing - http://www.chornbe.com/motorcycles) in one half of a
> two-car
> > garage. Needless to say, I have a lot of mobile bases for my tools.
> Mobile,
> > as in, "let me drag it over here where there's 2 extra feet of space".
> > *sigh*
>
> Thank you! Luckily SWMBO feels the same way about garages and cars as I
do
> ... contrary to many these days, neither of us sees an automobile as an
> extension of our persona/ego, so we've never been concerned with, and see
> the foolishness of, housing them in their own $eparate $pace in the
climate
> we live in.
>
> That leaves the "shop", as small as it is, my domain in its entirety.
>

Keep her. She's a rare one :)

"Charles Spitzer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Bob Schmall" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>I love this time of year, early morning before it's light, and nippy air
>>>that
>>> helps clear the head. Today, I need to cut some cabinet doors, and I
>>> don't want
>>> to waste plywood, so I was standing outside thinking it out--this
>>> sometimes
>>> works better than pencil and paper--when I realized my rural area was
>>> suffering
>>> from a bit of light pollution that wasn't here a few years ago.
>>>
>>> I think it's these blasted dusk to dawn insurance lights. Every small
>>> church
>>> has at least five (insurance companies require them at every entrance
>>> and every
>>> obstacle of certain types). Many houses, including one across the road,
>>> and two
>>> others a quarter mile up the road, have one.
>>
>> Sky & Telescope magazine, the Fine Woodworking of that hobby, estimates
>> that more than half the people in the world, and 2/3 of those in the
>> United States, cannot see the Milky Way. During the recent blackout in
>> New York, people were calling the police to report a strange huge cloud
>> over the city. Yep--our galaxy.
>>
>> I have a famous poster of the United States (there's one of Europe also)
>> at night, taken by satellites, that shows the entire country lit by
>> unrestricted lighting. It's easy to pick out your own home town. The
>> question is, why are they visible from space? Aren't lights supposed to
>> illuminate the ground?
>>
>> The loss of the night sky is not only saddening, it is unnecessary. As an
>> amateur astronomer I know that a high percentage of our lighting is
>> misdirected, and that proper shielding would not only preserve the sky
>> but--more importantly for most people--save huge amounts of money. San
>> Diego changed to a more sophisticated lighting some years ago and saved
>> the taxpayers about $300,000.
>>
>> And of course we all know the effect of bright lighting in reducing
>> crime?
>>
>> The International Dark-Sky Association (http://www.darksky.org/) has
>> drafted sensible lighting ordinances that would both preserve the night
>> sky AND our security and safety. Rush Limbaugh has, of course, labeled
>> them a bunch of left-wing nuts. He's wrong--their purpose is simply as
>> stated in the first sentence of this paragraph.
>>
>> Bob
>
> when i fly over a city at night, a lot of light is reflected off the
> ground back into the sky. shielding the light wouldn't have any affect on
> this.

Of course not. But this is an extremely small percentage of the total amount
of light now being broadcast upward. One example is very high-powered
billboard lights aimed upward. Another is the insane amount of lighting auto
dealers use to light their lots after business hours. It may be required by
their insurance companies to protect millions of dollars of inventory, but
that's not the point here. The lights could easily be properly shielded and
directed to the ground, performing their intended function without waste.
Sensible shielded lighting uses lower wattage bulbs to achieve the same
effect, thus reducing the amount of reflected light.

Bob

Bob

"Chris Hornberger" <chris@no_spam.chornbe.com> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Growth sucks, but every single one of us who moves off to "greener
> pastures" is part of the problem. It's up to us to try to keep things
> as we want it. I won't let them put street lights in once I'm a member
> of the home owner's association. I like it quiet. I like it dark. I
> like the (relative) solitude.
>

Or do like we did, and buy old.

Comes with the added bonus of built in ww projects. And thus, the need to
acquire more tools. Win-Win, all the way around...

Regards,

JT

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

<snip>
>
> I am sure there is some law against it but why couldn't a whole
> neighborhood be a single customer/customer and each home owner pay for
> his usage of that total billed to the neighborhood.
>

It is the notion of municipal retail utility distribution. Where the city
manages the 'natural monopoly' portion of electric and/or gas distribution.

I've lived in a town with such a system. It was just fine, and less
expensive than one would expect. They now are installing some of the
fastest residential and business broadband services in the country, at
aggressively low prices, after waiting for the 'big boys' to get off their
backsides for years. That REALLY gets the lobbyists and propagandists
going.

As to whether there are laws against it, it differs in every area. However,
laws can be changed.

Patriarch,
closet populist

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 22:45:56 GMT, "Bob Schmall" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"Chad Bender" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 12:18:43 -0500, TeamCasa wrote:
>>
>>> "Charlie Self"
>>> In a recent vacation to Kona Hawaii, I was struck by the lack of light
>>> in the evenings. It didn't take long to figure out that the whole
>>> island has a light restriction. The Keck Observatory. It really was
>>> nice, compared to the virtual daylight of LA.
>>>
>>> Palomar,North of San Diego also has light restrictions, but not nearly
>>> the scale of the big island.
>>>
>>> Dave
>>
>> The light restrictions on the big island are certainly true. However,
>> both Kona and Hilo still send a large quantity of light upwards. I've
>> conducted astronomical observations several times a year over the past few
>> years on the summit of Mauna Kea, and can vouch that both Kona and Hilo
>> are quite bright at night. They certainly are not as bright as other
>> cities of the same size that don't have light restrictions. But it is
>> becoming a problem at the observatory. Waimea and Honokaa are also quite
>> visible from the summit.
>>
>> What people seem to not understand is that lighting the sky does not
>> provide added ground level security and also wastes energy. Using smartly
>> designed lights that direct all of their light downward can make the
>> street level considerably brighter and safer, while significantly reducing
>> sky brightness and energy usage. Unfortunately, these light fixtures are
>> generally more expensive up front, which seems to trump their long term
>> energy efficiency benefits in most consumers minds.
>>
>> Chad
>
>Chad's right. I'm also an amateur astronomer and can vouch for better
>lighting. See my post elsewhere in thsi thread for information on the
>International Dark-Sky Assocoation.
>The price of sensible lighting fixtures is coming down, and the payback time
>lessened considerably. A number of communities nationwide and around the
>world have adopted reasonable lighting ordinances, but the problem is
>growing. As long as we insist on providing circus lighting for our homes and
>businesses it won't be solved.

Boy, I wish the municiple sheds across the street would jump on the
sensible lighting wagon... directly out my window, there are six
high-power arc-sodium floodlights to illuminate pole sheds with no one
in them. They run year-round, and all the sheds are there for is to
hold snowplows. The entire block is bright enough to read by day and
night, year-round.

>Bob
>

Aut inveniam viam aut faciam

"Bob Schmall" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>I love this time of year, early morning before it's light, and nippy air
>>that
>> helps clear the head. Today, I need to cut some cabinet doors, and I
>> don't want
>> to waste plywood, so I was standing outside thinking it out--this
>> sometimes
>> works better than pencil and paper--when I realized my rural area was
>> suffering
>> from a bit of light pollution that wasn't here a few years ago.
>>
>> I think it's these blasted dusk to dawn insurance lights. Every small
>> church
>> has at least five (insurance companies require them at every entrance and
>> every
>> obstacle of certain types). Many houses, including one across the road,
>> and two
>> others a quarter mile up the road, have one.
>
> Sky & Telescope magazine, the Fine Woodworking of that hobby, estimates
> that more than half the people in the world, and 2/3 of those in the
> United States, cannot see the Milky Way. During the recent blackout in New
> York, people were calling the police to report a strange huge cloud over
> the city. Yep--our galaxy.
>
> I have a famous poster of the United States (there's one of Europe also)
> at night, taken by satellites, that shows the entire country lit by
> unrestricted lighting. It's easy to pick out your own home town. The
> question is, why are they visible from space? Aren't lights supposed to
> illuminate the ground?
>
> The loss of the night sky is not only saddening, it is unnecessary. As an
> amateur astronomer I know that a high percentage of our lighting is
> misdirected, and that proper shielding would not only preserve the sky
> but--more importantly for most people--save huge amounts of money. San
> Diego changed to a more sophisticated lighting some years ago and saved
> the taxpayers about $300,000.
>
> And of course we all know the effect of bright lighting in reducing crime?
>
> The International Dark-Sky Association (http://www.darksky.org/) has
> drafted sensible lighting ordinances that would both preserve the night
> sky AND our security and safety. Rush Limbaugh has, of course, labeled
> them a bunch of left-wing nuts. He's wrong--their purpose is simply as
> stated in the first sentence of this paragraph.
>
> Bob

when i fly over a city at night, a lot of light is reflected off the ground
back into the sky. shielding the light wouldn't have any affect on this.

Bob Schmall wrote:

>
> "TeamCasa" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>> Another is the insane amount of lighting auto dealers use to light their
>>> lots after business hours. It may be required by their insurance
>>> companies to protect millions of dollars of inventory, but that's not
>>> the point here. The lights could easily be properly shielded and
>>> directed to the ground, performing their intended function without
>>> waste. Sensible shielded lighting uses lower wattage bulbs to achieve
>>> the same effect, thus reducing the amount of reflected light.
>>>
>>> Bob
>>
>> Bob, I am one of those insane auto dealers. We do use a significant
>> amount of light on our lots. The lamps are 1000w Metal Halide. They are
>> shielded and focused only to point down and trimed to stay on the lot but
>> it still a large amount of light. However, on the non-display areas we
>> used HPS lamps and they reduce the amount of bounced light. We do leave
>> 20% of the display lights on after hours for security.
>>
>> I wish there was a better method.
>>
>> Dave
>
> 1,000 watt? There is a better method. Go here:
> http://www.darksky.org/.
>
> They can help.

I'm curious--do they have a "better method" that renders colors with some
accuracy when compared to their appearance in daylight? HPS doesn't do
that and that's what they seem to be pushing. For many purposes this
doesn't matter, but for display areas at an automobile dealership I would
think that it did--people don't like to buy a car that's one color on the
lot and another when they get it home.

> Bob

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Leon wrote:

>
> "David Hall" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>
>> I am sure that you could if you were willing to build out the
>> distribution network for the community and keep it maintained and do
>> all the individual billing and collections,
>
> The electrical company is responsable for maintaining lines. The company
> that maintains the lines is not the one that I buy electricity from. I
> live in Houston and buy my electricity from a company in Dallas.

Texas is different from most of the country in that they have separated
generation from infrastructure maintenance. Presumably there is some
arrangement whereby the Local Wires Companies are paid by the Retail
Electric Providers. You may not buy electricity from them but one way or
another you're paying for their services.

One reason that large consumers get a discount is that the distribution
infrastructure on the customer's campus is the customer's responsibility,
not the power company's. In residential use the power company (in Texas
the Local Wires Company) is responsible for everything up to the connector
on the customer side of the meter.

If the home owners' association wanted to take care of the infrastructure
the same way that GM does in their plants then I'm sure the power company
would give them the same kind of discount. In effect they'd be becoming
their own Local Wires Company for their neighborhood.

Personally I would not want to live in any community where the home owners
association was responsible for keeping the power going.

> with the inevitable bad debt but you have to keep supplying them anyhow,
> and absorb the costs
>> during low usage periods when the overhead charge you apply doesn't
>> actually cover the overhead required to maintain sufficient capacity
>> to serve everyone's needs during the peak usage periods.....
>
> If the HOA took care of the billing it could cut the power off to the
> family
> that does not pay the bill.

If the applicable statutes allowed it. Do they really want the lawsuit when
the baby freezes to death because they cut the power off when it was 30
below?

> I suspect that the home owners in my small
> subdivision could save at least $225,000.00 per year. 3 years ago a
> family
> was ecvicted from their home and their home repaired and sold. They
> refused
> to pay the HOA anual bill of $250.00. I really do not think there would
> be problem with non payment.

Fascinating. So the home owners association actually owns the property. I
would not want to live anywhere that I was in the position of renting
property that I had paid for. I'm really kind of disappointed in
Texans--there was a time when anything that high-handed would have gotten
somebody shot.

> (any idea
>> what the cost is when a single neighborhhood step-down transformer
>> blows and needs replaced on an emergency basis while it is 10 below
>> outside)
>
> That will never happen in Houston. Transformers will blow but still the
> electric company will be responsible for the repair.

Then why would they want to give you a discount?

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

WoodMangler wrote:

> Charlie Self did say:
>
>> I love this time of year, early morning before it's light, and nippy air
>> that helps clear the head. Today, I need to cut some cabinet doors, and I
>> don't want to waste plywood, so I was standing outside thinking it
>> out--this sometimes works better than pencil and paper--when I realized
>> my rural area was suffering from a bit of light pollution that wasn't
>> here a few years ago.
>>
>> I think it's these blasted dusk to dawn insurance lights. Every small
>> church has at least five (insurance companies require them at every
>> entrance and every obstacle of certain types). Many houses, including one
>> across the road, and two others a quarter mile up the road, have one.
>>
>> I guess those are basic directional pointers for thieves, much like a
>> sign saying, "Hey, here's something worth stealing".
>>
>> But I did get the placement figured out for my two doors. I can warm the
>> shop and get those cut today.
>
> Just how difficult is it to create light fixtures that direct all of the
> light DOWN? One of the great things about where I live was the night sky.
> Now, I get to see about 75% of it due to the streetlights glaring skyward.

If you fly over the area at night you'll likely find that most of the
streetlights are not "glaring upward". You'll see nicely illuminated
little circles of ground with no bright spot in the middle.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 13:37:43 -0500, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Fascinating. So the home owners association actually owns the property. I
>would not want to live anywhere that I was in the position of renting
>property that I had paid for. I'm really kind of disappointed in
>Texans--there was a time when anything that high-handed would have gotten
>somebody shot.

I suspect that most homeowners in the entire U S of A are already in that
situation. I know I am. Today, I received my annual "rent" bill from the county.
They call it "real estate tax", but if I don't pay it, I can be evicted.

I don't see much _effective_ difference between that and paying rent to a
landlord except that the landlord would have more legal difficulty evicting me
from his property than the county would have evicting me from my own property.


Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS USA

"Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> I love this time of year, early morning before it's light, and nippy air
that
> helps clear the head. Today, I need to cut some cabinet doors, and I don't
want

I love the change of seasons. The occasional gray day, after weeks of
bright sunlight. That crispness, after months of heat. The first snowflakes.

The days get shorter.
The first green buds that appear.
The days that grow longer...

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 11/06/04
>

Swingman - you have yourself one sweet little shop, there. Nice work.

I'm still battling with the wife over just how much of the garage I get as
"mine". So far I'm trying to do woodwork and a motorcycle restoration (my
'82 Goldwing - http://www.chornbe.com/motorcycles) in one half of a two-car
garage. Needless to say, I have a lot of mobile bases for my tools. Mobile,
as in, "let me drag it over here where there's 2 extra feet of space".
*sigh*

"Chris Hornberger" wrote in message

> Swingman - you have yourself one sweet little shop, there. Nice work.
>
> I'm still battling with the wife over just how much of the garage I get as
> "mine". So far I'm trying to do woodwork and a motorcycle restoration (my
> '82 Goldwing - http://www.chornbe.com/motorcycles) in one half of a
two-car
> garage. Needless to say, I have a lot of mobile bases for my tools.
Mobile,
> as in, "let me drag it over here where there's 2 extra feet of space".
> *sigh*

Thank you! Luckily SWMBO feels the same way about garages and cars as I do
... contrary to many these days, neither of us sees an automobile as an
extension of our persona/ego, so we've never been concerned with, and see
the foolishness of, housing them in their own $eparate $pace in the climate
we live in.

That leaves the "shop", as small as it is, my domain in its entirety.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04

"Eric Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I was thinking you were going to mention the northern lights we've been
> seeing here in southern WI for the last few days. Now thats light
pollution

Wow - wouldn't you know it? I leave and they show up...

I grew up with Yerkes Observatory *literally* in my backyard.
(http://astro.uchicago.edu/yerkes/) Was educated about Light Pollution from
an early age...

IIRC - they did say that the adoption of Na lights would make things easier.
Easier, I suppose, to filter out the one wavelngth.

Charlie Self did say:

> I love this time of year, early morning before it's light, and nippy air that
> helps clear the head. Today, I need to cut some cabinet doors, and I don't want
> to waste plywood, so I was standing outside thinking it out--this sometimes
> works better than pencil and paper--when I realized my rural area was suffering
> from a bit of light pollution that wasn't here a few years ago.
>
> I think it's these blasted dusk to dawn insurance lights. Every small church
> has at least five (insurance companies require them at every entrance and every
> obstacle of certain types). Many houses, including one across the road, and two
> others a quarter mile up the road, have one.
>
> I guess those are basic directional pointers for thieves, much like a sign
> saying, "Hey, here's something worth stealing".
>
> But I did get the placement figured out for my two doors. I can warm the shop
> and get those cut today.

Just how difficult is it to create light fixtures that direct all of the
light DOWN? One of the great things about where I live was the night sky.
Now, I get to see about 75% of it due to the streetlights glaring skyward.

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 12:18:43 -0500, TeamCasa wrote:

> "Charlie Self"
> In a recent vacation to Kona Hawaii, I was struck by the lack of light
> in the evenings. It didn't take long to figure out that the whole
> island has a light restriction. The Keck Observatory. It really was
> nice, compared to the virtual daylight of LA.
>
> Palomar,North of San Diego also has light restrictions, but not nearly
> the scale of the big island.
>
> Dave

The light restrictions on the big island are certainly true. However,
both Kona and Hilo still send a large quantity of light upwards. I've
conducted astronomical observations several times a year over the past few
years on the summit of Mauna Kea, and can vouch that both Kona and Hilo
are quite bright at night. They certainly are not as bright as other
cities of the same size that don't have light restrictions. But it is
becoming a problem at the observatory. Waimea and Honokaa are also quite
visible from the summit.

What people seem to not understand is that lighting the sky does not
provide added ground level security and also wastes energy. Using smartly
designed lights that direct all of their light downward can make the
street level considerably brighter and safer, while significantly reducing
sky brightness and energy usage. Unfortunately, these light fixtures are
generally more expensive up front, which seems to trump their long term
energy efficiency benefits in most consumers minds.

Chad

"David Hall" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>
> I am sure that you could if you were willing to build out the
> distribution network for the community and keep it maintained and do
> all the individual billing and collections,

The electrical company is responsable for maintaining lines. The company
that maintains the lines is not the one that I buy electricity from. I live
in Houston and buy my electricity from a company in Dallas.

with the inevitable bad debt but you have to keep supplying them anyhow, and
absorb the costs
> during low usage periods when the overhead charge you apply doesn't
> actually cover the overhead required to maintain sufficient capacity
> to serve everyone's needs during the peak usage periods.....

If the HOA took care of the billing it could cut the power off to the family
that does not pay the bill. I suspect that the home owners in my small
subdivision could save at least $225,000.00 per year. 3 years ago a family
was ecvicted from their home and their home repaired and sold. They refused
to pay the HOA anual bill of $250.00. I really do not think there would be
problem with non payment.

(any idea
> what the cost is when a single neighborhhood step-down transformer
> blows and needs replaced on an emergency basis while it is 10 below
> outside)

That will never happen in Houston. Transformers will blow but still the
electric company will be responsible for the repair.

"Howard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Snip

>
> Final point-In states where you can buy your own energy (like TX) big
> customers are doing relatively well, but the costs of marketing to and
> serving small customers chews up a lot of the savings. Unfortunately
> for TX they bet on many new natural gas generating units and their
> fuel costs have doubled in the last two years raising costs on the
> "free market" substantially.


Yup, I live in Texas. I just wish that the power companies would let us buy
electricity when we needed it. During peak periods the price world be more
expansive and during the winter, weekends, and night hours the price would
be cheaper. I was part of a pilot program in 1996-1997 that my local
electricity company tried out. My electric bill was less than $1,077.00 for
that whole that year. My electric bill the following year after the program
was terminated went up to $1,339.00 with only a 5% increase of usage.

That said, my electric rates last year were basically the same as they were
in 1998.

[email protected] (Charlie Self) writes:


[...]

> paper--when I realized my rural area was suffering from a bit of light
> pollution that wasn't here a few years ago.
>
> I think it's these blasted dusk to dawn insurance lights. Every small
> church has at least five (insurance companies require them at every
> entrance and every obstacle of certain types). Many houses, including
> one across the road, and two others a quarter mile up the road, have
> one.

We have lost silence to traffic, darkness to fear and stupidity, clean
air and water and space to growth. Is there any hope for a life worth
living left?

THe light problem is really bad, but if you hear retired old ladies
they seem to fear to be raped every five minutes if not every spot on
the steet is bright enough to read very fine print...
--
Dr. Juergen Hannappel http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~hannappe
mailto:[email protected] Phone: +49 228 73 2447 FAX ... 7869
Physikalisches Institut der Uni Bonn Nussallee 12, D-53115 Bonn, Germany
CERN: Phone: +412276 76461 Fax: ..77930 Bat. 892-R-A13 CH-1211 Geneve 23

"Charlie Self" wrote in message

> I love this time of year, early morning before it's light, and nippy air
that
> helps clear the head.

Except for the nonexistent nippy air down here, I know what you mean - a
perfect time to think and plan. I walk most every morning at 5 ...might see
one car in motion, and maybe one or two early rising joggers, but being in
the middle of a big city the light pollution is just that ... however, it
couldn't hide the moon, Jupiter and Venus lining up real pretty this
morning, very low on the eastern horizon.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04