I am curious how much gap to leave for these joints, which would entail
possibly not gluing certain faces of the joints, and building for loose dry
fit-ups. Sometimes I had control over gaps, some times not. I did not have
any undersized, non-nominal tools. I was not prepared for the added space
of the glue. I glued ALL applicable surfaces I wanted w/ a small paint
brush. How much gap in thou, or 1/32" or whatever should be designed into
this type of work? The finished pre-glue -up work would look like scrap to
ME w/o knowledge of this. I am very picky about final dimensions.
some of the joints I have made recently which needed glue:
1)drawer lock joint w/ 3/4" face, 1/2" side birch (not Baltic) - (for
drawer)
-TS and router table. 1/4" straight bit. Sanded quite a bit. Chamfered the
corners w/ block. I dry fitted tightly. Thats what I wanted. Then came
glue up. Worked out but I needed all my clamping power. Where did the glue
go Phew.?
2)dado joint w/ 1/2" back, 1/2" side birch (not Baltic) - (for drawer)
-router table. 1/2" straight bit.
There is like .025" or .030" between these two, so glue up was fine. When I
made it I had serious reservations about using the joint! newbie
3)rabbet and dado (free-standing support pillars for sliding doors)
-router table. 1/4" straight bit. 1"x3" select pine. Dry fit was just
right. Mallet time. No gap left anywhere (for glue)! Glued everything!.
What a bummer. Amazed I didn't break anymore cast iron clamps! Had to sand
to get the final thickness back.
4)butt (free-standing support pillar for door hinge side)
- no problems except run-out. Don't know what thickness it added. Seems
like a lot. Disaster in another placement.
5)rabbet and dado (top door jambs) - actually the sides slide on screws and
shimmed from behind, I can slide tops out w/ sides screwed in place, and
they are jointed to be exactly 30" and 24", but I don't think I'll use any
glue. Not much of any gap. More now. Nothing visible. Paintable. What
do you think - expansion!?
BTW, I'm now curious about sliding dovetail front joint effect on
strengthening box for future reference. How do these glue up as far as
strength goes? So I could cover slides on sides. I guess false fronts for
any face frame applications too.
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"bent" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I am curious how much gap to leave for these joints, which would entail
>possibly not gluing certain faces of the joints, and building for loose dry
>fit-ups. Sometimes I had control over gaps, some times not. I did not
>have any undersized, non-nominal tools. I was not prepared for the added
>space of the glue. I glued ALL applicable surfaces I wanted w/ a small
>paint brush. How much gap in thou, or 1/32" or whatever should be designed
>into this type of work? The finished pre-glue -up work would look like
>scrap to ME w/o knowledge of this. I am very picky about final dimensions.
>
> some of the joints I have made recently which needed glue:
>
> 1)drawer lock joint w/ 3/4" face, 1/2" side birch (not Baltic) - (for
> drawer)
> -TS and router table. 1/4" straight bit. Sanded quite a bit. Chamfered
> the corners w/ block. I dry fitted tightly. Thats what I wanted. Then
> came glue up. Worked out but I needed all my clamping power. Where did
> the glue go Phew.?
>
> 2)dado joint w/ 1/2" back, 1/2" side birch (not Baltic) - (for drawer)
> -router table. 1/2" straight bit.
> There is like .025" or .030" between these two, so glue up was fine. When
> I made it I had serious reservations about using the joint! newbie
>
> 3)rabbet and dado (free-standing support pillars for sliding doors)
> -router table. 1/4" straight bit. 1"x3" select pine. Dry fit was just
> right. Mallet time. No gap left anywhere (for glue)! Glued everything!.
> What a bummer. Amazed I didn't break anymore cast iron clamps! Had to
> sand to get the final thickness back.
>
> 4)butt (free-standing support pillar for door hinge side)
> - no problems except run-out. Don't know what thickness it added. Seems
> like a lot. Disaster in another placement.
>
> 5)rabbet and dado (top door jambs) - actually the sides slide on screws
> and shimmed from behind, I can slide tops out w/ sides screwed in place,
> and they are jointed to be exactly 30" and 24", but I don't think I'll use
> any glue. Not much of any gap. More now. Nothing visible. Paintable.
> What do you think - expansion!?
Make all of you joints to within .001-.005 of snug but not too snug. Then
add glue.
I used side-mounted bottom supporting slides for 8 drawers. They have 3
sets of slots and screw holes. Supposed to set-up in slot, then use o/
holes to secure. I found no other way than to lay out ALL holes first,
before even finishing drawers. had the cabinet slide sides installed. Is
it a pipe dream to even consider inset drawers into a face frame of a
cabinet w/o also using face frames - in practice?
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> I found no other way than to lay out ALL holes first,
> before even finishing drawers. had the cabinet slide sides installed.
because I knew it would be level
>Is it a pipe dream to even consider inset drawers into a face frame of a
cabinet w/o also using
false fronts?
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>if you have to hammer or use clamps to pull the joint together, it's too
>tight.
>if you put it together dry and it wobbles around, it's too loose.
>the wood and the shoulders should support the joint, and things should
>slide
>together snugly on dry assembly - that's all there is to it.
That would make sense , but I hope u realize I was talking before, and after
glue, respectively. I have no doubt that no joint component could hold
itself in position against gravity before being glued in all sides. (4
sides is too many...). the standard tooling vs. standard sized plywood I
have closely avialable wouldn't hold the weight of a match. I am curious
now what the point of undersized plywood router bits are. I saw a set where
the 1/4", 1/2", and 3/4" where all 1/32" undersized. I can (now) see where
you may want these for end gluing the joint (there would be no room side to
side), but these are about tightm dry, and leave no room for glue. As I
mentioned earlier, others Frued or Infinity, sell 1/16" under.
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are u the guy who called me out for posting out of succession too. U r the
one man show here. I have not posted in spite of anyone. If u need to feel
close I can tell u where u are needed. I hear Bin Laden is looking for a
few good men.
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I had control over how thick the slide-in thingy was, but not the groove
(1/4" straight bit). I used a .001" dial caliper to set up. If it was
within say .005" under, ok. Anyone who knows (how to answer) also knows how
much of a drag it is to distinguish between this and the RIGHT set=up offset
numbers I am looking for for the next time I have to set up the fence(s) for
this situation.
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its probly a Q for each type of joint and the number of faces which
could/should get glue. I am thinking of yellow glue too. Each corner of
drawer lock joint had 10 seperate faces to coat with glue. 52 9" long faces
for each drawer before clamping in position. Thats 39 feet. Would you glue
all the faces of a drawer joint first before assembly? Try that in a .250"
x .250" seven foot long groove.
I think if you will coat both surfaces, that you should be able to count on
the pressure from both sides being equal, so that though your initial
measurement looks like you measured it with cabbage, it will look right
after its dried. And I think you always need to leave a gap on the bottom
of the joint, unless you aren't using glue there, b/c you would need enough
pressure to either squeeze it into the wood, or out the ends.
Next time I do anything with glue I can tell you gravity won't be part of
the equation. Thats not true. By magnitude of dimension it is true. But
because everything warps, thats why its not true.
I've got no numbers, answers yet. Its like wax, how thick is wax, oh, a
mile, a cm. try to apply it coat after coat and see. its science.
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On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 11:23:18 +1300, Peter Huebner
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Don't be tempted to use epoxy as a 'gap filling glue'. A friend of mine did
>that in his (professional) joinery for a while and it all started falling apart
>within months. :-(
That's actually surprising to me.
I've seen epoxy hold some amazingly poorly fitted structural joints on
full-scale boats and large scale model aircraft with excellent
results. Some of them were on very badly built 40-45 pound model
airplanes that regularily pull 4-5 G's.
Did the glue itself fail, or the attachment of the glue to the wood?
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> I am curious how much gap to leave for these joints, which would entail
> possibly not gluing certain faces of the joints, and building for loose dry
> fit-ups.
>
If you have to hammer or use clamps to pull the joint together, it's too tight.
If you put it together dry and it wobbles around, it's too loose.
The wood and the shoulders should support the joint, and things should slide
together snugly on dry assembly - that's all there is to it.
Consider that end grain does not really hold a joint - the important faces are
where long grain meets long grain.
Don't be tempted to use epoxy as a 'gap filling glue'. A friend of mine did
that in his (professional) joinery for a while and it all started falling apart
within months. :-(
h.t.h. -P.
--
=========================================
firstname dot lastname at gmail fullstop com
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> Did the glue itself fail, or the attachment of the glue to the wood?
>
I would say the adhesion of the glue to the wood failed. But it'd be hard to
say without extensive testing under the microscope, maybe ?!?
The timber we're talking about here is gum - eucalyptus botryoides, ~fastigata,
~pilularis. I've several pieces here in my house, some offcuts of a benchtop he
made for someone which I used to make trivets .. glue failed after 6-7 months.
He also made a butcher's block as a wedding present for us and more than half
the joints have failed on that; I kept having to re-joint it.
I myself tried epoxy on some gum 20 years ago (jarrah, don't know the species
any better) for an end-vice for my woodworking bench and it failed within days.
I never tried again ;-)
I have used all the above timbers successfully with aliphatic, resorcinol,
aerolite 308 and premixed urethane glues and never had any failures so far. Go
figure.
-P.
--
=========================================
firstname dot lastname at gmail fullstop com
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> >if you have to hammer or use clamps to pull the joint together, it's too
> >tight.
> >if you put it together dry and it wobbles around, it's too loose.
>
> >the wood and the shoulders should support the joint, and things should
> >slide
> >together snugly on dry assembly - that's all there is to it.
>
> That would make sense , but I hope u realize I was talking before, and after
> glue, respectively. I have no doubt that no joint component could hold
> itself in position against gravity before being glued in all sides. (4
> sides is too many...). the standard tooling vs. standard sized plywood I
> have closely avialable wouldn't hold the weight of a match. I am curious
> now what the point of undersized plywood router bits are. I saw a set where
> the 1/4", 1/2", and 3/4" where all 1/32" undersized. I can (now) see where
> you may want these for end gluing the joint (there would be no room side to
> side), but these are about tightm dry, and leave no room for glue. As I
> mentioned earlier, others Frued or Infinity, sell 1/16" under.
>
Oh my, this is getting awfully technical :-)
From the top of my head I would say that 1/32 is too much of a gap, way too
much. Then again, most tools cut a little bit more off the wood than their
nominal size, and now it's getting into territory where hardwood/softwood is
going to be a telling difference, springyness of the timber, moisture
content...
So, sorry, I don't go on figures myself; I mark out with a knife, I cut up to
the knife mark, then I trim with a very very sharp chisel until the joint
barely just slides home. Empirical. I don't use presized router bits, that's
why I can't really be more helpful to you here. I've seen dovetail jigs,
coveted them and never bought one :-) and I end up doing hidden joints, often
do drawers with bisquits or I cut joints on the radial arm saw and clean up by
hand.
-P.
--
=========================================
firstname dot lastname at gmail fullstop com
"bent" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>> I found no other way than to lay out ALL holes first,
>> before even finishing drawers. had the cabinet slide sides installed.
>
> because I knew it would be level
>
>
>>Is it a pipe dream to even consider inset drawers into a face frame of a
> cabinet w/o also using
>
> false fronts?
Are you new to this new fangled "inter net" thing?????
You really do appear to always be having a conversation with only yourself
and it always seems to be in some kind of code.
"bent" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> are u the guy who called me out for posting out of succession too.
Nope.
U r the
> one man show here.
Nope
"bent" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I used side-mounted bottom supporting slides for 8 drawers. They have 3
>sets of slots and screw holes. Supposed to set-up in slot, then use o/
>holes to secure. I found no other way than to lay out ALL holes first,
>before even finishing drawers. had the cabinet slide sides installed.
Why are you laying out holes for drawer slides. Just screw the slides on
when you are ready. You don't need to predrill for these short screws
unless you are buying your screws at Home Depot and not using the ones that
came with the slides.
>Is it a pipe dream to even consider inset drawers into a face frame of a
>cabinet w/o also using face frames - in practice?
Come again.
On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 18:13:50 +1300, Peter Huebner
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>I myself tried epoxy on some gum 20 years ago (jarrah, don't know the species
>any better) for an end-vice for my woodworking bench and it failed within days.
>I never tried again ;-)
The joints I was referring to were mahogany, maple, bass, sitka
spruce, oak, etc... Typical North American furniture, boat, and
aircraft woods.
It's gotta be an thing with certain woods.
Barry