Tim wrote:
> "BJT" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >While there really is such a thing as an aluminum oxide finish on
> >pre-finished flooring, it's a proprietary finish applied at the
factory. It
> >is exceptionally tough and durable, much more so than polyurethane.
But it
> >won't last forever, and it is possible to scratch/mar/damage it.
Note
> >however, IT CAN NEVER BE REFINISHED, because it is virtually
impossible to
> >remove the old finish. Once the finish is damaged or worn to the
point it
> >is no longer acceptable, either pull it up and make firewood or buy
area
> >rugs or wall-to-wall.
>
> Oh I don't know about that!
> I put 40 grit paper on my 300 lb floor sander, I can sand through
anything.....
>
Unless its an epoxy, I'd expect stripper to lift it too.
--
FF
Thanks for all the responses guys but I still need to know what a
proper formula is to mix aluminum oxide with polyurethane to achieve
the best results. I am looking for mesh size as well as amount to use
you know something like "well I use 200 mesh and add a half pound of
AO to 1 gallon of polyurethane" or something like that. Some would
have people believe that it is a complicated process but it really just
consists of adding AO to polyurethane you can use UV lights to fast
cure if you want but that is about as complicated as it gets. I just
wanted to get a good formula instead of doing the old trial and error
routine.
The flooring manufactures produce AO finished products so I assumed
that onsite finishers would have devised a similar solution to do this.
I have personally blended boron carbide and diamond powder with
polyurethane to produce anti wear coats in high end furniture and it is
extremely strong but these powders are cost prohibitive to use in
flooring applications. So I figured someone might know the recipe for
using AO with polyurethane.
Dan,
Thanks for the response and I did not assume that it was personal; I
was just trying to refocus on the issue I am trying to resolve. If I
came off short, I apologize and I did not mean to sound tripe or rude,
I just wanted to remind everyone that I would still like to find a mix
if anyone has one. When I asked the question, I realized that I very
well may be the first one to try this and if I am so be it. I will
defiantly come back and post my findings if I have to do the Guinea Pig
route.
As for the AO being a factory finishes, I believe that it is put out
there by the manufactures. It is no different than using Boron Carbide
or diamond powder to reinforce a finish and both of those are done by
just mixing the powders directly into polyurethane. You just have to
make sure that you get the right mesh size and mix the right amounts
about 5% powder to volume of finish for boron and 3% powder to volume
for diamond at a mesh size of 600.
Dan Oelke wrote:
> > As for the AO being a factory finishes, I believe that it is put
out
> > there by the manufactures. It is no different than using Boron
Carbide
> > or diamond powder to reinforce a finish and both of those are done
by
> > just mixing the powders directly into polyurethane. You just have
to
> > make sure that you get the right mesh size and mix the right
amounts
> > about 5% powder to volume of finish for boron and 3% powder to
volume
> > for diamond at a mesh size of 600.
> >
>
> Interesting. I had never heard of anyone doing this - but then I am
by
> no means a finishing expert. (much much closer to newbie than
expert.)
>
> So in your experiments with born and diamond powder - do you have any
> measurement of how much more wear resistance this provided?
I don't have measurements on the amount of resistance to damage using
diamond powder or Boron have as opposed to using straight urethane,
just subjective evidence that convinced me to use them on my better
pieces of work. My father worked for a high-end paint company that
makes a product consisting of 300 mesh diamond powders mixed with
urethane, one day he applied some to some scrap yellow pine and then
smacking it with a hammer after it was dry to see how strong it was.
The pine did not dent the finish cracked a little but it did not dent,
after seeing that any surface I need durability on such as a desktop or
a table top I have always added one or the other to the mix and have
never had to refinish a piece of work . Not to mention that diamond
powder creates a beautiful finish.
Diamond is the hardest substance registering a 10 on the Moh's scale
as well Boron is right up there with a 9 and AO weighs in at 7.5 so
they are extremely hard substances adding them to urethane in
sufficient amounts causes a nearly solid coat to be applied to the
surface. It is not as hard as solid diamond or solid boron but is far
harder than just urethane by itself.
One thing to remember with Boron though is that it will change (darken)
the pigment of the urethane. As well I belive AO turns white if too
much is added.
>Doesn't that tend to darken things a bit?
Yes, you can only use boron carbide when you are trying to achieve a
darkened look such as staining or ebonizing, it is hidden fairly well
when using it on dark walnuts and mahogany. Diamond powder is fairly
translucent and seems to me to only add a sparkle to the finish and can
be used on light maple, oak ect. it is just more expensive.
EBay, search for boron carbide or diamond powder. Anything below 200
mesh usually between 300 and 600. The larger the mesh the thicker the
particle and therefore the stronger but also the more gritty and the
less it blends with the urethane. I use 600 to 1000 mesh on furniture
but on these floors, that I am doing myself, I am going to try 200 Mesh
AO and if that does not work, I am going to move to a finer mesh like
300 which I know will blend for boron or diamond but I have never
worked with AO. Anyway, I have a pound of 200 meshes AO (from EBay) on
the way and will see how it goes. This goes without saying but blend
outside and always use a respirator, I have suffered no ill effects
from blending them but I am not a chemical engineer so do not take my
word for it use a chemical respirator as you should always do with
urethane. Oh yeah and don't blend it into the can blend it in a
container and do not pour the leftover into the urethane as it will
settle or at least make sure you shake the can well every time you use
it to re suspend the mix if you decide mix it directly into your can.
[email protected] wrote:
> Thanks for all the responses guys but I still need to know what a
> proper formula is to mix aluminum oxide with polyurethane to achieve
> the best results. I am looking for mesh size as well as amount to use
> you know something like "well I use 200 mesh and add a half pound of
> AO to 1 gallon of polyurethane" or something like that. Some would
> have people believe that it is a complicated process but it really just
> consists of adding AO to polyurethane you can use UV lights to fast
> cure if you want but that is about as complicated as it gets. I just
> wanted to get a good formula instead of doing the old trial and error
> routine.
>
The reason you aren't getting useful responses is probably because no
one who has read your message has done this. Don't assume it's
something personal against you.
FWIW - almost everything I have read talks of AO being a "factory" only
method. That probably just means that the products haven't made it to
the wider community yet. Which means that your chances of finding
someone here who knows this is probably pretty slim.
I did Google and found in about 10 minutes this link:
http://www.finishing.com/141/06.shtml
There someone has listed two possible commercial premixed solutions -
Trek Plus and Fuhr Aluminum Oxide Modified Urethane
Dan
> As for the AO being a factory finishes, I believe that it is put out
> there by the manufactures. It is no different than using Boron Carbide
> or diamond powder to reinforce a finish and both of those are done by
> just mixing the powders directly into polyurethane. You just have to
> make sure that you get the right mesh size and mix the right amounts
> about 5% powder to volume of finish for boron and 3% powder to volume
> for diamond at a mesh size of 600.
>
Interesting. I had never heard of anyone doing this - but then I am by
no means a finishing expert. (much much closer to newbie than expert.)
So in your experiments with born and diamond powder - do you have any
measurement of how much more wear resistance this provided?
While there really is such a thing as an aluminum oxide finish on
pre-finished flooring, it's a proprietary finish applied at the factory. It
is exceptionally tough and durable, much more so than polyurethane. But it
won't last forever, and it is possible to scratch/mar/damage it. Note
however, IT CAN NEVER BE REFINISHED, because it is virtually impossible to
remove the old finish. Once the finish is damaged or worn to the point it
is no longer acceptable, either pull it up and make firewood or buy area
rugs or wall-to-wall.
Bruce
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Does anyone know how much and how fine of aluminum oxide powder should
> be used in polyurethane to achieve a good strong finish for a site
> finished floor.
>
"BJT" <[email protected]> wrote:
>While there really is such a thing as an aluminum oxide finish on
>pre-finished flooring, it's a proprietary finish applied at the factory. It
>is exceptionally tough and durable, much more so than polyurethane. But it
>won't last forever, and it is possible to scratch/mar/damage it. Note
>however, IT CAN NEVER BE REFINISHED, because it is virtually impossible to
>remove the old finish. Once the finish is damaged or worn to the point it
>is no longer acceptable, either pull it up and make firewood or buy area
>rugs or wall-to-wall.
Oh I don't know about that!
I put 40 grit paper on my 300 lb floor sander, I can sand through anything.....
>Bruce
>
>
><[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Does anyone know how much and how fine of aluminum oxide powder should
>> be used in polyurethane to achieve a good strong finish for a site
>> finished floor.
>>
>
>
On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:17:24 -0500, "Jim" <[email protected]> wrote:
>There are a number of companies making Polyurethane / Aluminum Oxide flooor
>finishes. Check with your local paint distributor and it's likely that they
>can help. If that is not convenient, we carry CrystaLac Poly-Ox which is a
>water based Poly / aluminum oxide floor finish that doesn't require a decade
>of experience to apply successfully. Feel free to call our tech support line
>for additional info, or check out
>http://www.mcfeelys.com/subcat.asp?subcat=5.5.7
>
>Jim Ray, President
>McFeely's Square Drive Screws
>www.mcfeelys.com
>
>
><[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Does anyone know how much and how fine of aluminum oxide powder should
>> be used in polyurethane to achieve a good strong finish for a site
>> finished floor.
>>
>
I suddenly found a use for the CrystaLac Poly-Ox - covering a tile
floor. What is the recommended coverage per gallon, so I can get
enough?
Thanks!
A
There are a number of companies making Polyurethane / Aluminum Oxide flooor
finishes. Check with your local paint distributor and it's likely that they
can help. If that is not convenient, we carry CrystaLac Poly-Ox which is a
water based Poly / aluminum oxide floor finish that doesn't require a decade
of experience to apply successfully. Feel free to call our tech support line
for additional info, or check out
http://www.mcfeelys.com/subcat.asp?subcat=5.5.7
Jim Ray, President
McFeely's Square Drive Screws
www.mcfeelys.com
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Does anyone know how much and how fine of aluminum oxide powder should
> be used in polyurethane to achieve a good strong finish for a site
> finished floor.
>
[email protected] wrote:
>
> Tim wrote:
>> "BJT" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >While there really is such a thing as an aluminum oxide finish on
>> >pre-finished flooring, it's a proprietary finish applied at the
> factory. It
>> >is exceptionally tough and durable, much more so than polyurethane.
> But it
>> >won't last forever, and it is possible to scratch/mar/damage it.
> Note
>> >however, IT CAN NEVER BE REFINISHED, because it is virtually
> impossible to
>> >remove the old finish. Once the finish is damaged or worn to the
> point it
>> >is no longer acceptable, either pull it up and make firewood or buy
> area
>> >rugs or wall-to-wall.
>>
>> Oh I don't know about that!
>> I put 40 grit paper on my 300 lb floor sander, I can sand through
> anything.....
>>
>
> Unless its an epoxy, I'd expect stripper to lift it too.
Which brings the real question. Is it aluminum oxide powder in a binder or
it is pure aluminum oxide applied by some exotic process? If it's pure
aluminum oxide then solvents aren't going to do a thing to it.
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
[email protected] wrote:
> Thanks for all the responses guys but I still need to know what a
> proper formula is to mix aluminum oxide with polyurethane to achieve
> the best results. I am looking for mesh size as well as amount to use
> you know something like "well I use 200 mesh and add a half pound of
> AO to 1 gallon of polyurethane" or something like that. Some would
> have people believe that it is a complicated process but it really just
> consists of adding AO to polyurethane you can use UV lights to fast
> cure if you want but that is about as complicated as it gets. I just
> wanted to get a good formula instead of doing the old trial and error
> routine.
What leads you to believe that anyone is finishing floors by adding aluminum
oxide to polyurethane?
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Al2O3 to be pedantic
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Thanks for all the responses guys but I still need to know what a
> proper formula is to mix aluminum oxide with polyurethane to achieve
> the best results. I am looking for mesh size as well as amount to use
> you know something like "well I use 200 mesh and add a half pound of
> AO to 1 gallon of polyurethane" or something like that. Some would
> have people believe that it is a complicated process but it really just
> consists of adding AO to polyurethane you can use UV lights to fast
> cure if you want but that is about as complicated as it gets. I just
> wanted to get a good formula instead of doing the old trial and error
> routine.
>
Dan Oelke wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>> Thanks for all the responses guys but I still need to know what a
>> proper formula is to mix aluminum oxide with polyurethane to achieve
>> the best results. I am looking for mesh size as well as amount to use
>> you know something like "well I use 200 mesh and add a half pound of
>> AO to 1 gallon of polyurethane" or something like that. Some would
>> have people believe that it is a complicated process but it really just
>> consists of adding AO to polyurethane you can use UV lights to fast
>> cure if you want but that is about as complicated as it gets. I just
>> wanted to get a good formula instead of doing the old trial and error
>> routine.
>>
>
> The reason you aren't getting useful responses is probably because no
> one who has read your message has done this. Don't assume it's
> something personal against you.
>
> FWIW - almost everything I have read talks of AO being a "factory" only
> method. That probably just means that the products haven't made it to
> the wider community yet. Which means that your chances of finding
> someone here who knows this is probably pretty slim.
>
> I did Google and found in about 10 minutes this link:
> http://www.finishing.com/141/06.shtml
> There someone has listed two possible commercial premixed solutions -
> Trek Plus and Fuhr Aluminum Oxide Modified Urethane
Googling farther the Fuhr product is "Fuhr 855" and is waterborne, while the
Trek Plus product appears to be a 2K urethane.
> Dan
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
[email protected] wrote:
> The flooring manufactures produce AO finished products so I assumed
> that onsite finishers would have devised a similar solution to do this.
> I have personally blended boron carbide
Doesn't that tend to darken things a bit?
> and diamond powder with
> polyurethane to produce anti wear coats in high end furniture and it is
> extremely strong but these powders are cost prohibitive to use in
> flooring applications. So I figured someone might know the recipe for
> using AO with polyurethane.
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
On 18 Mar 2005 11:49:36 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
>EBay, search for boron carbide or diamond powder. Anything below 200
>mesh usually between 300 and 600. The larger the mesh the thicker the
>particle and therefore the stronger but also the more gritty and the
>less it blends with the urethane. I use 600 to 1000 mesh on furniture
>but on these floors, that I am doing myself, I am going to try 200 Mesh
>AO and if that does not work, I am going to move to a finer mesh like
>300 which I know will blend for boron or diamond but I have never
>worked with AO. Anyway, I have a pound of 200 meshes AO (from EBay) on
>the way and will see how it goes. This goes without saying but blend
>outside and always use a respirator, I have suffered no ill effects
>from blending them but I am not a chemical engineer so do not take my
>word for it use a chemical respirator as you should always do with
>urethane. Oh yeah and don't blend it into the can blend it in a
>container and do not pour the leftover into the urethane as it will
>settle or at least make sure you shake the can well every time you use
>it to re suspend the mix if you decide mix it directly into your can.
Be sure to let us know how the 200 mesh AO goes!
A
On 17 Mar 2005 13:22:14 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
>Dan,
> Thanks for the response and I did not assume that it was personal; I
>was just trying to refocus on the issue I am trying to resolve. If I
>came off short, I apologize and I did not mean to sound tripe or rude,
>I just wanted to remind everyone that I would still like to find a mix
>if anyone has one. When I asked the question, I realized that I very
>well may be the first one to try this and if I am so be it. I will
>defiantly come back and post my findings if I have to do the Guinea Pig
>route.
>
>As for the AO being a factory finishes, I believe that it is put out
>there by the manufactures. It is no different than using Boron Carbide
>or diamond powder to reinforce a finish and both of those are done by
>just mixing the powders directly into polyurethane. You just have to
>make sure that you get the right mesh size and mix the right amounts
>about 5% powder to volume of finish for boron and 3% powder to volume
>for diamond at a mesh size of 600.
Where would you buy the right size of boron or diamond powder?
Thanks!
A