ot technology:

[email protected] wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Aug 2012 23:13:23 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Wed, 29 Aug 2012 20:23:09 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 29 Aug 2012 16:20:44 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 8/29/12 2:42 PM, Swingman wrote:
>>>>>>> On 8/29/2012 11:45 AM, Casper wrote:
>>>>>>>> I walk right past the sequin-coated iphone covers and would run away
>>>>>>>> from a sequin-covered festool. I saw a derringer once where the grip
>>>>>>>> was diamonds in lucite. I had one thought ... why?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> LOL Steve Jobs, famous for his minimalistic approach to design, as well
>>>>>>> as Jon Ives, his favorite designer, is undoubtedly spinning in his grave
>>>>>>> to hear the term "bling" in the same breath with "iPad". :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Same goes for Festool products ... both manufacturers are well known for
>>>>>>> a functional-to-a-fault design approach, resulting in a minimalist
>>>>>>> design where anything not absolutely functional is hard to find on any
>>>>>>> of their products.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think people just equate "bling" with expensive.
>>>>>> Fact is, no one has come out with tools that work as well as Festool for
>>>>>> a cheaper price.
>>>>>> Maybe "bling" means, this is what quality and functionality
>>>>>> second-to-none costs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Gee, and I thought "bling" was useless shiny baubles added for no good reason
>>>>> other than to catch the eye.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hmm.. Maybe it would be fun to list products with bling for
>>>> clarification, I'll try to start:
>>>>
>>>> A Rolex Watch
>>>> A Coach purse
>>>
>>> OK, but I don't see the correlation between Rolex and Apple. That you do,
>>> says as much about you than it does those who you talk about.
>>>
>>
>> I'm not sure. I heard about a 7 year-old today who asked his mom to buy
>> him an iPad. Do you think he saw *bling*?
>
> Maybe but that just makes my point. *YOU* care about what some unknown little
> boy wants.

No, I just happen to be in the coffee room when the said story was told.
You'll have to find someone else to argue with though.


Without even knowing why, you assume it's because he thinks it'll
> may him look important. First question, why do you make that assumption.
> Second, why do you care?

You'll have to find someone else to argue with though.

>
>> I've heard of teens wanting
>> various ipod's so that they could carry them as a fashion accessory (Jim
>> Cramer's daughter). Remember, I'm the one that can't even tolerate
>> viewing the Ipod screen, so there's no i-envy coming from this corner of
>> the room.
>
> No, but you seem to have an unhealthy concern for what others do with their
> life.

You'll have to find someone else to argue with though.

>
>> I didn't make a correlation between Rolex and Apple? I doubt
>> they have the same customers.
>
> You did, actually.

You'll have to find someone else to argue with though.

>

On Wed, 29 Aug 2012 23:13:23 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>> On Wed, 29 Aug 2012 20:23:09 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 29 Aug 2012 16:20:44 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 8/29/12 2:42 PM, Swingman wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/29/2012 11:45 AM, Casper wrote:
>>>>>>> I walk right past the sequin-coated iphone covers and would run away
>>>>>>> from a sequin-covered festool. I saw a derringer once where the grip
>>>>>>> was diamonds in lucite. I had one thought ... why?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> LOL Steve Jobs, famous for his minimalistic approach to design, as well
>>>>>> as Jon Ives, his favorite designer, is undoubtedly spinning in his grave
>>>>>> to hear the term "bling" in the same breath with "iPad". :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Same goes for Festool products ... both manufacturers are well known for
>>>>>> a functional-to-a-fault design approach, resulting in a minimalist
>>>>>> design where anything not absolutely functional is hard to find on any
>>>>>> of their products.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think people just equate "bling" with expensive.
>>>>> Fact is, no one has come out with tools that work as well as Festool for
>>>>> a cheaper price.
>>>>> Maybe "bling" means, this is what quality and functionality
>>>>> second-to-none costs.
>>>>
>>>> Gee, and I thought "bling" was useless shiny baubles added for no good reason
>>>> other than to catch the eye.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Hmm.. Maybe it would be fun to list products with bling for
>>> clarification, I'll try to start:
>>>
>>> A Rolex Watch
>>> A Coach purse
>>
>> OK, but I don't see the correlation between Rolex and Apple. That you do,
>> says as much about you than it does those who you talk about.
>>
>
>I'm not sure. I heard about a 7 year-old today who asked his mom to buy
>him an iPad. Do you think he saw *bling*?

Maybe but that just makes my point. *YOU* care about what some unknown little
boy wants. Without even knowing why, you assume it's because he thinks it'll
may him look important. First question, why do you make that assumption.
Second, why do you care?

>I've heard of teens wanting
>various ipod's so that they could carry them as a fashion accessory (Jim
>Cramer's daughter). Remember, I'm the one that can't even tolerate
>viewing the Ipod screen, so there's no i-envy coming from this corner of
>the room.

No, but you seem to have an unhealthy concern for what others do with their
life.

>I didn't make a correlation between Rolex and Apple? I doubt
>they have the same customers.

You did, actually.

Swingman wrote:
> On 8/29/2012 11:45 AM, Casper wrote:
>> I walk right past the sequin-coated iphone covers and would run away
>> from a sequin-covered festool. I saw a derringer once where the grip
>> was diamonds in lucite. I had one thought ... why?
>
> LOL Steve Jobs, famous for his minimalistic approach to design, as
> well as Jon Ives, his favorite designer, is undoubtedly spinning in
> his grave to hear the term "bling" in the same breath with "iPad". :)
>
> Same goes for Festool products ... both manufacturers are well known
> for a functional-to-a-fault design approach, resulting in a minimalist
> design where anything not absolutely functional is hard to find on any
> of their products.

All right! A post where I can get back to agreeing with Karl! And I do so
with a vengance.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Casper wrote:

>
> I walk right past the sequin-coated iphone covers and would run away
> from a sequin-covered festool. I saw a derringer once where the grip
> was diamonds in lucite. I had one thought ... why?

You sir, are a man of discrimating tastes. Hats off to ya!

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

>> That's just "marketing". It's part of a product. If people don't
>> "understand your product" it might as well not exist...
>>
>> You don't hear people explaining that the PCs can do things that their
>> i-counterparts cannot do because there would be little profit in it.
>>
>> *bling" is a feature of a product too. People make great sacrifices
>> for bling because it strokes their self-esteem--not as well as a
>> Festool could do it, but close! ; ) Bill

I suppose that may be true for others but certainly not for me.
I still don't own a festool. ;)

>That is the belief of the common populace. In reality, outside of a few
>very specialized markets (mostly ghetto markets), "bling" has no real value.
>Now - it you are talking about perceived value, or something like social
>value - then I'd agree with you.

I agree, but that's just mho.

>But - those are the points I am trying to get past with my questions.
>I don't care what no-minds will spend their money on. I'm conducting
>a dialog that is more sophisticated than that. To add "bling" crap does
>nothing to advance this conversation. Mike

Agreed. No-minds, I like that term. I agree about the conversation.

I walk right past the sequin-coated iphone covers and would run away
from a sequin-covered festool. I saw a derringer once where the grip
was diamonds in lucite. I had one thought ... why?

On 8/29/12 2:42 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 8/29/2012 11:45 AM, Casper wrote:
>> I walk right past the sequin-coated iphone covers and would run away
>> from a sequin-covered festool. I saw a derringer once where the grip
>> was diamonds in lucite. I had one thought ... why?
>
> LOL Steve Jobs, famous for his minimalistic approach to design, as well
> as Jon Ives, his favorite designer, is undoubtedly spinning in his grave
> to hear the term "bling" in the same breath with "iPad". :)
>
> Same goes for Festool products ... both manufacturers are well known for
> a functional-to-a-fault design approach, resulting in a minimalist
> design where anything not absolutely functional is hard to find on any
> of their products.
>

I think people just equate "bling" with expensive.
Fact is, no one has come out with tools that work as well as Festool for
a cheaper price.
Maybe "bling" means, this is what quality and functionality
second-to-none costs.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 8/29/2012 11:45 AM, Casper wrote:
> I walk right past the sequin-coated iphone covers and would run away
> from a sequin-covered festool. I saw a derringer once where the grip
> was diamonds in lucite. I had one thought ... why?

LOL Steve Jobs, famous for his minimalistic approach to design, as well
as Jon Ives, his favorite designer, is undoubtedly spinning in his grave
to hear the term "bling" in the same breath with "iPad". :)

Same goes for Festool products ... both manufacturers are well known for
a functional-to-a-fault design approach, resulting in a minimalist
design where anything not absolutely functional is hard to find on any
of their products.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

I think one concept to consider - hand -eye coordination.

They want to press that button to see the Pig fly. They learn
like eating. Natural and more.

Martin

On 8/30/2012 3:37 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 8/30/12 2:44 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Bill wrote:
>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 30 Aug 2012 00:00:41 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>> OK, but I don't see the correlation between Rolex and Apple.
>>>>>>>> That you
>>>>>>>> do, says as much about you than it does those who you
>>>>>>>> talk about.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not sure. I heard about a 7 year-old today who asked his mom
>>>>>>> to buy him an iPad. Do you think he saw *bling*?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe but that just makes my point. *YOU* care about what some
>>>>>> unknown little boy wants.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, I just happen to be in the coffee room when the said story was
>>>>> told. You'll have to find someone else to argue with though.
>>>>
>>>> Yes. If it didn't bother you (and it clearly does) that a little
>>>> boy wanted an iPad, you wouldn't have brought it up here. You
>>>> really need to pay more attention to yourself and your family and
>>>> less to what others want.
>>>
>>> I think it is noteworthy comment about our society that a 7-year old
>>> asked his mom for an Ipad. I guess it's a sign that there is a lot of
>>> marketing going on.
>>
>> Perhaps, but I think it is more a reflection of what parents are giving
>> their kids these days. My own thoughts on that were - why in the hell
>> does
>> a 7 year old need and iPad? But - that's what parents do for and buy for
>> their kids these days.
>>
>
> Not to start another whole debate.... well, that *is* what we do, so
> here goes.....
>
> Kids, especially very young ones, are doing extremely well with learning
> on tablets. The touch interface has opened up whole new realms of early
> developmental learning that were never before thought possible.
>
> They have been especially revolutionary in helping autistic kids learn
> and *communicate* with others. There are videos out there showing before
> and after of kids with autism and it brings tears to your eyes to see
> the difference it makes in their lives. Turns out these kids are just as
> intelligent as "normal" kids and these tablets have been they only
> really effective conduit to learning and communication for them.
>
> I have friends with preschooler who are learning to read and write with
> things, much faster than old-school flash cards, etc. Best part... they
> seem to take to it themselves with very little supervision. The touch
> screen interface seems to be the magic part of the equation in the case
> of the autistic kids.
>

Bill wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>> On Thu, 30 Aug 2012 00:00:41 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>>>>> OK, but I don't see the correlation between Rolex and Apple. That you
>>>>>> do, says as much about you than it does those who you
>>>>>> talk about.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure. I heard about a 7 year-old today who asked his mom
>>>>> to buy him an iPad. Do you think he saw *bling*?
>>>>
>>>> Maybe but that just makes my point. *YOU* care about what some
>>>> unknown little boy wants.
>>>
>>> No, I just happen to be in the coffee room when the said story was
>>> told. You'll have to find someone else to argue with though.
>>
>> Yes. If it didn't bother you (and it clearly does) that a little
>> boy wanted an iPad, you wouldn't have brought it up here. You
>> really need to pay more attention to yourself and your family and
>> less to what others want.
>
> I think it is noteworthy comment about our society that a 7-year old
> asked his mom for an Ipad. I guess it's a sign that there is a lot of
> marketing going on.

Perhaps, but I think it is more a reflection of what parents are giving
their kids these days. My own thoughts on that were - why in the hell does
a 7 year old need and iPad? But - that's what parents do for and buy for
their kids these days.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Leon wrote:

>
> Why does a 7 year old need an iPad? I responded that they don't. We
> will still need garbage collectors, meter readers, and yard mowers. You
> might as well ask why a 7 year old needs books.
>

I guess I felt a sentimental response to that Leon. I think that statements
like that are very condescending and very presumptuous. To suggest that
kids who don't enjoy these types of advantage are good candidates for
garbage collectors is really wrong. I'm sorry Leon - I am not trying to
offend you, but that is a really ostentatious statement. It's even more
peculiar in the face of the number of comments here about the value of
traditional teachings and all that stuff. I guess this is a point that we
might agree to disagree on to some point. We would both agree on the value
of technology, but I think we disagree on simply embracing any one
technology simply because it is there.


>
> Your kids are probably an exception, they turned out fine with your
> home schooling and close supervision. My son IMHO did exceptionally
> well but did not go to the best schools with the exception of his HS.
> Until he started Kerr HS I would have called him a little better than
> average student. At Kerr HS I would have called him an average
> student however that school was new, small, and loaded with
> technology with a college atmosphere. He graduated suma cum laude
> from the Bauer Honors College at UofH

Suma cum laude here too. Sure does make a parent proud - doesn't it?

> and before turning 23 had his
> masters degree with deans honors and after graduating passed all 4 of
> his CPA exams first try with an average score of 92.

In the world of social work/psychology, that is harder to obtain in that
same time frame, but our middle got there in admirable time. Too bad that a
Masters just does not mean that much...

The others have done as well but in their fields, it's just a "requirement".
Really sucks - they do all of this work just to meet a minimum requirement.


--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Thu, 30 Aug 2012 00:00:41 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>> On Wed, 29 Aug 2012 23:13:23 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 29 Aug 2012 20:23:09 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 29 Aug 2012 16:20:44 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 8/29/12 2:42 PM, Swingman wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 8/29/2012 11:45 AM, Casper wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I walk right past the sequin-coated iphone covers and would run away
>>>>>>>>> from a sequin-covered festool. I saw a derringer once where the grip
>>>>>>>>> was diamonds in lucite. I had one thought ... why?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> LOL Steve Jobs, famous for his minimalistic approach to design, as well
>>>>>>>> as Jon Ives, his favorite designer, is undoubtedly spinning in his grave
>>>>>>>> to hear the term "bling" in the same breath with "iPad". :)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Same goes for Festool products ... both manufacturers are well known for
>>>>>>>> a functional-to-a-fault design approach, resulting in a minimalist
>>>>>>>> design where anything not absolutely functional is hard to find on any
>>>>>>>> of their products.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think people just equate "bling" with expensive.
>>>>>>> Fact is, no one has come out with tools that work as well as Festool for
>>>>>>> a cheaper price.
>>>>>>> Maybe "bling" means, this is what quality and functionality
>>>>>>> second-to-none costs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gee, and I thought "bling" was useless shiny baubles added for no good reason
>>>>>> other than to catch the eye.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hmm.. Maybe it would be fun to list products with bling for
>>>>> clarification, I'll try to start:
>>>>>
>>>>> A Rolex Watch
>>>>> A Coach purse
>>>>
>>>> OK, but I don't see the correlation between Rolex and Apple. That you do,
>>>> says as much about you than it does those who you talk about.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'm not sure. I heard about a 7 year-old today who asked his mom to buy
>>> him an iPad. Do you think he saw *bling*?
>>
>> Maybe but that just makes my point. *YOU* care about what some unknown little
>> boy wants.
>
>No, I just happen to be in the coffee room when the said story was told.
> You'll have to find someone else to argue with though.

Yes. If it didn't bother you (and it clearly does) that a little boy wanted
an iPad, you wouldn't have brought it up here. You really need to pay more
attention to yourself and your family and less to what others want.
>
>Without even knowing why, you assume it's because he thinks it'll
>> may him look important. First question, why do you make that assumption.
>> Second, why do you care?
>
>You'll have to find someone else to argue with though.

It clearly bothers you or you wouldn't be so defensive.

>>> I've heard of teens wanting
>>> various ipod's so that they could carry them as a fashion accessory (Jim
>>> Cramer's daughter). Remember, I'm the one that can't even tolerate
>>> viewing the Ipod screen, so there's no i-envy coming from this corner of
>>> the room.
>>
>> No, but you seem to have an unhealthy concern for what others do with their
>> life.
>
>You'll have to find someone else to argue with though.



>>> I didn't make a correlation between Rolex and Apple? I doubt
>>> they have the same customers.
>>
>> You did, actually.
>
>You'll have to find someone else to argue with though.

I thought you had a brain. Even a dumb bird can parrot.

-MIKE- wrote:

>
> For me, the touch screen will be of particular convenience for what I
> do as a drummer. At some point I the near future, I will be replacing
> all the electronics I use in live performance with an iPad or similar
> tablet. Right now, I have many stand-alone devices that take up a lot
> of space and need to be wired together. When using a laptop, I need
> to have separate trigger pas if anything is to be done during a song.
> A mouse just doesn't cut it when both your hands are busy. Even
> between songs, having to put down the stick, grab the mouse to click
> of stuff is very awkward.
>

So - talk to me about that. As I have said in a previous post - I use the
term mouse to be the same as eraser head, track ball, and any other
alternative that may be out there. I tend to think of eraser heads or pads
these days. So, as I think of it, they seem to be quite intuitive and
quick. It is clear that you find the touch screen to be quicker or more
intuitive. Remember - I'm a touch screen guy - my Galaxy S3 has a great
touch screen that I love. But - I'm thinking simply in terms of how I use
my laptop and what touch screen would mean to that usage, so since you use
yours differently, I'm interested in what you have to say.

It may be that we use our junk differently and that that's just how it is,
for those who really proclaim the values of touch screen, I'm interested in
hearing why they feel that way.

> These tablets and their apps combine so much of my hardware into one
> little box. The touch interface and having most everything on one
> screen makes life soooo much easier on stage.

I can see some of that. Partial vision if you will. It's hard to really
grasp it because I don't really know what you are doing in total. You
know - it's what you don't know that you don't know.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

-MIKE- wrote:

>
> Not to start another whole debate.... well, that *is* what we do, so
> here goes.....
>
> Kids, especially very young ones, are doing extremely well with
> learning on tablets. The touch interface has opened up whole new
> realms of early developmental learning that were never before thought
> possible.

Agreed. I have seen that watching my own grandchildren.

> They have been especially revolutionary in helping autistic kids learn
> and *communicate* with others. There are videos out there showing
> before and after of kids with autism and it brings tears to your eyes
> to see the difference it makes in their lives. Turns out these kids
> are just as intelligent as "normal" kids and these tablets have been
> they only really effective conduit to learning and communication for
> them.

Autism is a very special case, and while I agree that for those children the
benefits can be in one category, I don't think that is a universal
application. In other words - simply because Autism can benefit does not
mean that every child can derive the same benefit. BTW - it does not "turn
out" that these kids are just as intelligent - that has been known and
ackhowledged for a very long time now.

>
> I have friends with preschooler who are learning to read and write
> with things, much faster than old-school flash cards, etc. Best
> part... they seem to take to it themselves with very little
> supervision. The touch screen interface seems to be the magic part
> of the equation in the case of the autistic kids.

I do not disagree with this at all. I have two granddaughters who have
different devices - toys if you will, that are touch screen interfaces.
They maneauver around those in a way that makes us marvel when we watch
them. At the same time, they are far more prolific with a simple Windows
interface than a lot of people our ages that were never exposed to computers
for a long time. My only point is that this stuff is a reflection of a
couple of things. It's indeed a reflection of the interface, but that is
not where it ends. It's also a reflection of when they get introduced to
it, and the fact that as their parents become more computer savy, that level
of comfort passes on down to the kids, and that becomes their starting
point. In the end, they very quickly show signs of advanced understanding -
or usage.

I never stated that I thought touch screen was useless or bad. I only
stated that it does not light my fire. I also said that it is great on my
cell phone but I don't see it as being so convenient on my laptop. That's
me - and that's what I have said throughout this thread. (Not suggesting
you are saying anything different - being more generalized here).

Just wanted to go on record as reiterating my points - though the history is
in this thread and it would be easy to see the things I have really said.
There is another poster here who likes to distort what others have said, and
I'd like my words to stand as I mean them, not as that person would like
them to appear.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 8/31/2012 12:26 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>> Not every 7 year old needs to have an iPad. We still need people to
>> collect garbage, read electric meters, mow yards, etc.
>> Keep up or fall behind, that is a plain and simple fact of life.
>> The same thing was asked 10 years ago about lap tops.
>
> Actually - I do not recall that same thing being asked 10 years ago. I
> don't recall at all that 7 year olds needed laptops. Now - having said
> that - we have always been a technology household. My kids got to enjoy
> some things from a technology perspective that were years ahead of what
> their peers would ever see - so I'm not the voice that argues with the
> underlying thought. It's the measure of that value that I engage
> conversation about. It's one thing to blindly say that everything is good
> because it advances knowldege, but it's totally another thing to really
> measure and assess that gain.

Sorry for not showing the natural progression, 10 years ago not all
college students needed laptops. That is a given now. It all trickles
down. In a competitive world time waits for no one. The younger the
kids have the educational technology the better.



>>
>> FWIW with the public education system we have today our kids need
>> every advantage available to them. My son, just turned 25, has
>> always been around a PC. He sat in my lap at age 2 working letter
>> and number games on the computer.
>
> And that is great! That though, does not dispute the only point that I
> raised.

Why does a 7 year old need an iPad? I responded that they don't. We
will still need garbage collectors, meter readers, and yard mowers. You
might as well ask why a 7 year old needs books.


>>
>> Basically speaking here, you cannot start teaching kids values, common
>> sense, and educating them young enough.
>
> We homeschooled 2 kids. They went on to receive awards and scholarships
> from very prestigious schools, and took the schools of their chosing. I
> know and I understand the value of teaching kids, of embracing forward
> thinking ideas, etc. Maybe more than some here. I also know - from both my
> professional life where I observe the outcome of all of these "promises",
> and from just being a 59 year old old fart, that so much of this stuff is
> just hype. It sounds good, but the measureable results are not as real as
> the "promise". Don't get me wrong - I'm not "arguing" against it, I'm
> raising a thinking point - which seems to be something of a nusance around
> here..

Your kids are probably an exception, they turned out fine with your home
schooling and close supervision. My son IMHO did exceptionally well but
did not go to the best schools with the exception of his HS.
Until he started Kerr HS I would have called him a little better than
average student. At Kerr HS I would have called him an average student
however that school was new, small, and loaded with technology with a
college atmosphere. He graduated suma cum laude from the Bauer Honors
College at UofH and before turning 23 had his masters degree with deans
honors and after graduating passed all 4 of his CPA exams first try with
an average score of 92.
His scholarships probably paid for 75% of his education. Yes I am
bragging. ;~) If an iPad had been available when he was 7 he would
have had that too.

-MIKE- wrote:
> On 8/31/12 1:17 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:

>
> I'll stop there, because it's already very long winded... hopefully
> that's a good enough explanation.

It was Mike - thanks for the effort. All I can say is that you do way, way,
way too much! As a musician, I cannot imagine doing all of that stuff you
outlined. Nor could I imagine putting up with someone who was that focused
on things besides making the music. God Bless ya - I just can't understand
it. I think you have created a technology trap of your own devices, but - I
get it. You are trying to do something and you're using everything that
fits that effort. I've just never - not ever, played with any musician that
was this encumbered by technology. And I've played with some real
technology nuts...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 8/30/2012 3:37 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> Bill wrote:
>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 30 Aug 2012 00:00:41 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>> OK, but I don't see the correlation between Rolex and Apple.
>>>>>>>> That you
>>>>>>>> do, says as much about you than it does those who you
>>>>>>>> talk about.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not sure. I heard about a 7 year-old today who asked his mom
>>>>>>> to buy him an iPad. Do you think he saw *bling*?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe but that just makes my point. *YOU* care about what some
>>>>>> unknown little boy wants.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, I just happen to be in the coffee room when the said story was
>>>>> told. You'll have to find someone else to argue with though.
>>>>
>>>> Yes. If it didn't bother you (and it clearly does) that a little
>>>> boy wanted an iPad, you wouldn't have brought it up here. You
>>>> really need to pay more attention to yourself and your family and
>>>> less to what others want.
>>>
>>> I think it is noteworthy comment about our society that a 7-year old
>>> asked his mom for an Ipad. I guess it's a sign that there is a lot of
>>> marketing going on.
>>
>> Perhaps, but I think it is more a reflection of what parents are giving
>> their kids these days. My own thoughts on that were - why in the hell
>> does
>> a 7 year old need and iPad? But - that's what parents do for and buy for
>> their kids these days.
>>
>
> Not to start another whole debate.... well, that *is* what we do, so
> here goes.....
>
> Kids, especially very young ones, are doing extremely well with learning
> on tablets. The touch interface has opened up whole new realms of early
> developmental learning that were never before thought possible.
>
> They have been especially revolutionary in helping autistic kids learn
> and *communicate* with others. There are videos out there showing before
> and after of kids with autism and it brings tears to your eyes to see
> the difference it makes in their lives. Turns out these kids are just as
> intelligent as "normal" kids and these tablets have been they only
> really effective conduit to learning and communication for them.
>
> I have friends with preschooler who are learning to read and write with
> things, much faster than old-school flash cards, etc. Best part... they
> seem to take to it themselves with very little supervision. The touch
> screen interface seems to be the magic part of the equation in the case
> of the autistic kids.

Excellent response, Mike ... and one that shines a bright light on the
profound ignorance being shown in this thread by those who protest their
innocence of being dissembling, while, post after post, continue to spew
thinly veiled snideness about technologies of which they have no
experience or ken.

The iPad is, in particular, an excellent learning device for children,
the effectiveness of which the world has not previously experienced ...
the surface has barely been scratched in the regard.

Watching my 3 year old grandson, who has been using an iPad daily since
he was old enough to hold one, and is reading and comprehending the
written word better than most around here, recently proved that to me
without a shred of doubt.

Those with a literary bent might want to obtain a copy of Neal
Stephenson's "The Diamond Age", written in 1995 and eerily prescient of
the current technology's effect on learning for children.

... there is little doubt that Steve Jobs read this book at some point.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

Leon wrote:

>
> This might be a comparison, Galaxy S3 to an iPad as is the comparison
> of a Festool vac to a "Shop Vac. Just because they are similar does
> not mean that they are comparable.
>
> Would you consider using your Galaxy in place of a laptop? Just
> asking as I don't know what it's capabilities are.

Not sure, but maybe not so much of an analogy Leon. I get where you are
trying to go, but in the case of the Galaxy and the iPod - they are much
more similar in the user interface (which is what we are talking about). In
fact, the recent lawsuit settlement just declaired that very thing - that
Samsung had too much "copied" the Apple stuff. So - not so much of a
comparison to the Festool/any-other-tool comparison.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Leon wrote:

> Not every 7 year old needs to have an iPad. We still need people to
> collect garbage, read electric meters, mow yards, etc.
> Keep up or fall behind, that is a plain and simple fact of life.
> The same thing was asked 10 years ago about lap tops.

Actually - I do not recall that same thing being asked 10 years ago. I
don't recall at all that 7 year olds needed laptops. Now - having said
that - we have always been a technology household. My kids got to enjoy
some things from a technology perspective that were years ahead of what
their peers would ever see - so I'm not the voice that argues with the
underlying thought. It's the measure of that value that I engage
conversation about. It's one thing to blindly say that everything is good
because it advances knowldege, but it's totally another thing to really
measure and assess that gain.

>
> FWIW with the public education system we have today our kids need
> every advantage available to them. My son, just turned 25, has
> always been around a PC. He sat in my lap at age 2 working letter
> and number games on the computer.

And that is great! That though, does not dispute the only point that I
raised.

>
> Basically speaking here, you cannot start teaching kids values, common
> sense, and educating them young enough.

We homeschooled 2 kids. They went on to receive awards and scholarships
from very prestigious schools, and took the schools of their chosing. I
know and I understand the value of teaching kids, of embracing forward
thinking ideas, etc. Maybe more than some here. I also know - from both my
professional life where I observe the outcome of all of these "promises",
and from just being a 59 year old old fart, that so much of this stuff is
just hype. It sounds good, but the measureable results are not as real as
the "promise". Don't get me wrong - I'm not "arguing" against it, I'm
raising a thinking point - which seems to be something of a nusance around
here..

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 08/31/2012 01:53 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>>
>
> Not sure, but maybe not so much of an analogy Leon. I get where you are
> trying to go, but in the case of the Galaxy and the iPod - they are much
> more similar in the user interface (which is what we are talking about). In
> fact, the recent lawsuit settlement just declaired that very thing - that
> Samsung had too much "copied" the Apple stuff. So - not so much of a
> comparison to the Festool/any-other-tool comparison.
>

Mike, the jury proclaimed that...the judge hasn't given her final ruling
on the matter.


--
All the Best & 73's
Dale Miller, KC2CBD
Tennessee
Ham Operator since 1997
Member of YahooPipesmokers and ASP since February 2005

Registered Linux User: #317401
Linux since June 2003
Registered Ubuntu User #26423

[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]

(cut the spam to reply)


VOTE TO REBUILD!
www.twintowersalliance.com
__

On 8/31/2012 1:47 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>>
>> Why does a 7 year old need an iPad? I responded that they don't. We
>> will still need garbage collectors, meter readers, and yard mowers. You
>> might as well ask why a 7 year old needs books.
>>
>
> I guess I felt a sentimental response to that Leon. I think that statements
> like that are very condescending and very presumptuous. To suggest that
> kids who don't enjoy these types of advantage are good candidates for
> garbage collectors is really wrong. I'm sorry Leon - I am not trying to
> offend you, but that is a really ostentatious statement. It's even more
> peculiar in the face of the number of comments here about the value of
> traditional teachings and all that stuff. I guess this is a point that we
> might agree to disagree on to some point. We would both agree on the value
> of technology, but I think we disagree on simply embracing any one
> technology simply because it is there.

I am inferring more that some one that does not believe a child should
not have every advantage is the person that might hold the child back,
intentional or not. If parents can afford to supply their child with
the latest and greatest educational material and devices they should do so.

On 8/31/2012 1:17 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>
>>
>> For me, the touch screen will be of particular convenience for what I
>> do as a drummer. At some point I the near future, I will be replacing
>> all the electronics I use in live performance with an iPad or similar
>> tablet. Right now, I have many stand-alone devices that take up a lot
>> of space and need to be wired together. When using a laptop, I need
>> to have separate trigger pas if anything is to be done during a song.
>> A mouse just doesn't cut it when both your hands are busy. Even
>> between songs, having to put down the stick, grab the mouse to click
>> of stuff is very awkward.
>>
>
> So - talk to me about that. As I have said in a previous post - I use the
> term mouse to be the same as eraser head, track ball, and any other
> alternative that may be out there. I tend to think of eraser heads or pads
> these days. So, as I think of it, they seem to be quite intuitive and
> quick. It is clear that you find the touch screen to be quicker or more
> intuitive. Remember - I'm a touch screen guy - my Galaxy S3 has a great
> touch screen that I love. But - I'm thinking simply in terms of how I use
> my laptop and what touch screen would mean to that usage, so since you use
> yours differently, I'm interested in what you have to say.
>
> It may be that we use our junk differently and that that's just how it is,
> for those who really proclaim the values of touch screen, I'm interested in
> hearing why they feel that way.
>
>> These tablets and their apps combine so much of my hardware into one
>> little box. The touch interface and having most everything on one
>> screen makes life soooo much easier on stage.
>
> I can see some of that. Partial vision if you will. It's hard to really
> grasp it because I don't really know what you are doing in total. You
> know - it's what you don't know that you don't know.
>

This might be a comparison, Galaxy S3 to an iPad as is the comparison of
a Festool vac to a "Shop Vac. Just because they are similar does not
mean that they are comparable.

Would you consider using your Galaxy in place of a laptop? Just asking
as I don't know what it's capabilities are.

On 8/31/2012 3:02 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> An iPad or similar tablet removes many of these separate devices from
> the equation and combines them into one box, in many cases for cheaper
> than the sum total of all the devices. It removes a lot of the wiring
> and inter-connectivity. It takes up a fraction of the space. It gives me
> ONE surface on which to make adjustments for many tasks that previously
> required different surfaces in different locations. It removes the
> mouse/track pad from the equation and allows me to touch what I want to
> happen. That alone, for my specific use in stage performance, makes it
> totally worth the price of admission.
>
> There are tablet apps out there right now, that allow you to make a set
> list for a performance that includes your sheet music/charts, a
> metronome/click, and audio samples of each song... all of which get
> triggered by touching the next song on the screen... OR can be set to
> start automatically after the previous song stops. Rearranging the set
> list is as easy as touching and dragging each song title up or down on
> the screen and could take less than a minute. It could take 20 minutes
> with all the separate devices. 20 minutes may not seem like long, unless
> the artists decides to change the set list 5 minutes before curtain. :-)

I've been using the iPad app "OnSong" for chord charts and music when
playing.

Freaking awesome is the only way to describe it.

You can enter charts a number of ways, including downloading them off
the 'net; multiple charts/set lists for playing with different bands;
charts can be set to the tempo of the tune so they scroll up the screen,
in time, as the tune is being played, no page turning; you can set it to
follow along with music on the device; transposing keys on chord charts
is a one touch gesture (great for when singers sit in and don't sing it
the band's usual key); it can be synched to other devices in the band
over BT, onstage while playing; plays a click track; works with foot
pedals, will output to VGA/HDMI stage monitor; DropBox import/export; no
need for music stand lights, ad infinitum.

Use it once onstage and you won't go back to a songbook or paper chord
charts, guaranteed. :)

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 8/31/2012 11:40 PM, Bill wrote:
>
> Swing, This is the origin of the reply you replied to earlier--it
> contained nothing I wrote. I have nothing against, Mike M., but I don't
> want credit for his posts.

Bill, start using your head for something besides a hat rack ...

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 8/31/2012 1:25 PM, Leon wrote:

> His scholarships probably paid for 75% of his education. Yes I am
> bragging. ;~) If an iPad had been available when he was 7 he would
> have had that too.

Keep looking for the "Like" button ... damned technology. ;)

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

-MIKE- wrote:

>
> Now you may be tempted to start lamenting modern music and its use of
> backing tracks and how bands were so much better back in the day when
> they only had 4 guys and they played everything themselves. Before you
> do, go on Youtube and do a search for The Who. Check out the old clips
> of the original band and you'll see a lot of live performances with
> Keith Moon wearing big studio headphones. It wasn't because he started
> to take an interest in protecting his hearing. It's because Pete
> started writing his songs with synthesizer and they recorded with
> string sections and other instruments they didn't play live, but they
> wanted
> the audience to hear the whole songs, live. Keith wore the headphones
> to hear the tape playback and stay in time. They weren't the only band
> doing that.

Yeah - The Who made extensive use of backing tracks. I remember being
disappointed in seeing them live the first time and realizing that they were
using tracks, but it just became the way they did it and it was all good.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Dale Miller wrote:
> On 08/31/2012 01:53 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Leon wrote:
>>
>>>
>>
>> Not sure, but maybe not so much of an analogy Leon. I get where you
>> are trying to go, but in the case of the Galaxy and the iPod - they
>> are much more similar in the user interface (which is what we are
>> talking about). In fact, the recent lawsuit settlement just
>> declaired that very thing - that Samsung had too much "copied" the
>> Apple stuff. So - not so much of a comparison to the
>> Festool/any-other-tool comparison.
>
> Mike, the jury proclaimed that...the judge hasn't given her final
> ruling on the matter.

Correct. I was not clear in stating that.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Swingman wrote:

>
> Excellent response, Mike ... and one that shines a bright light on the
> profound ignorance being shown in this thread by those who protest
> their innocence of being dissembling, while, post after post,
> continue to spew thinly veiled snideness about technologies of which
> they have no experience or ken.

More of Karl's dribble where he tries to postion people in the way that he
wants them to appear. Great woodworker - horrible reader. Thinly veiled is
best applied to Karl's posts.


--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Bill wrote:

> I wonder how many others here, even those that own the technology,
> would have used the term "gestures" with the same authority

What do you mean by that Bill? The word gesture is pretty well understood
when it comes to touch interfaces. Not sure what you are trying to say
here.

> I have some ownership of the technology, as we all do,
> just because it's part of our culture. I also performed some
> due-diligence. Some might quibble about my use of the word ownership,
> but in my mind all U.S citizens are owners of the government, our
> natural resources and our national debt (too).
>

I'm sure you meant to say something with that Bill but I must confess - it
went right over my head.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Ok guys - think of the old days.

Speak and Spell. several versions - math and language..

The price on those were up there.

How about Star War toys - way up there.

The schools are promoting apple products for some time.

Lots of kid stuff on them and maybe a friend had one or their Mom did....

Could be worse. At least they are thinking computers. Jobs nowadays
require computer backgrounds. Even the UPS people use scanners and GPS.....



Martin

On 8/30/2012 2:44 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Thu, 30 Aug 2012 00:00:41 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> OK, but I don't see the correlation between Rolex and Apple. That you
>>>>>>> do, says as much about you than it does those who you
>>>>>>> talk about.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not sure. I heard about a 7 year-old today who asked his mom
>>>>>> to buy him an iPad. Do you think he saw *bling*?
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe but that just makes my point. *YOU* care about what some
>>>>> unknown little boy wants.
>>>>
>>>> No, I just happen to be in the coffee room when the said story was
>>>> told. You'll have to find someone else to argue with though.
>>>
>>> Yes. If it didn't bother you (and it clearly does) that a little
>>> boy wanted an iPad, you wouldn't have brought it up here. You
>>> really need to pay more attention to yourself and your family and
>>> less to what others want.
>>
>> I think it is noteworthy comment about our society that a 7-year old
>> asked his mom for an Ipad. I guess it's a sign that there is a lot of
>> marketing going on.
>
> Perhaps, but I think it is more a reflection of what parents are giving
> their kids these days. My own thoughts on that were - why in the hell does
> a 7 year old need and iPad? But - that's what parents do for and buy for
> their kids these days.
>

On 8/30/2012 9:13 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Aug 2012 00:00:41 -0400, Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Wed, 29 Aug 2012 23:13:23 -0400, Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 29 Aug 2012 20:23:09 -0400, Bill<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 29 Aug 2012 16:20:44 -0500, -MIKE-<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 8/29/12 2:42 PM, Swingman wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 8/29/2012 11:45 AM, Casper wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I walk right past the sequin-coated iphone covers and would run away
>>>>>>>>>> from a sequin-covered festool. I saw a derringer once where the grip
>>>>>>>>>> was diamonds in lucite. I had one thought ... why?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> LOL Steve Jobs, famous for his minimalistic approach to design, as well
>>>>>>>>> as Jon Ives, his favorite designer, is undoubtedly spinning in his grave
>>>>>>>>> to hear the term "bling" in the same breath with "iPad". :)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Same goes for Festool products ... both manufacturers are well known for
>>>>>>>>> a functional-to-a-fault design approach, resulting in a minimalist
>>>>>>>>> design where anything not absolutely functional is hard to find on any
>>>>>>>>> of their products.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think people just equate "bling" with expensive.
>>>>>>>> Fact is, no one has come out with tools that work as well as Festool for
>>>>>>>> a cheaper price.
>>>>>>>> Maybe "bling" means, this is what quality and functionality
>>>>>>>> second-to-none costs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gee, and I thought "bling" was useless shiny baubles added for no good reason
>>>>>>> other than to catch the eye.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hmm.. Maybe it would be fun to list products with bling for
>>>>>> clarification, I'll try to start:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A Rolex Watch
>>>>>> A Coach purse
>>>>>
>>>>> OK, but I don't see the correlation between Rolex and Apple. That you do,
>>>>> says as much about you than it does those who you talk about.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure. I heard about a 7 year-old today who asked his mom to buy
>>>> him an iPad. Do you think he saw *bling*?
>>>
>>> Maybe but that just makes my point. *YOU* care about what some unknown little
>>> boy wants.
>>
>> No, I just happen to be in the coffee room when the said story was told.
>> You'll have to find someone else to argue with though.
>
> Yes. If it didn't bother you (and it clearly does) that a little boy wanted
> an iPad, you wouldn't have brought it up here. You really need to pay more
> attention to yourself and your family and less to what others want.
>>
>> Without even knowing why, you assume it's because he thinks it'll
>>> may him look important. First question, why do you make that assumption.
>>> Second, why do you care?
>>
>> You'll have to find someone else to argue with though.
>
> It clearly bothers you or you wouldn't be so defensive.

Troll!

On 8/30/12 8:13 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>
>>> Maybe but that just makes my point. *YOU* care about what some unknown little
>>> boy wants.
>>
> Yes. If it didn't bother you (and it clearly does) that a little boy wanted
> an iPad, you wouldn't have brought it up here. You really need to pay more
> attention to yourself and your family and less to what others want.
>>
>> Without even knowing why, you assume it's because he thinks it'll
>>> may him look important. First question, why do you make that assumption.
>>> Second, why do you care?
>
> It clearly bothers you or you wouldn't be so defensive.
>
>>>
>>> No, but you seem to have an unhealthy concern for what others do with their
>>> life.
>>


Wow, you need a new script.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

[email protected] wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Aug 2012 00:00:41 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>>>>> OK, but I don't see the correlation between Rolex and Apple. That you do,
>>>>> says as much about you than it does those who you talk about.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure. I heard about a 7 year-old today who asked his mom to buy
>>>> him an iPad. Do you think he saw *bling*?
>>>
>>> Maybe but that just makes my point. *YOU* care about what some unknown little
>>> boy wants.
>>
>> No, I just happen to be in the coffee room when the said story was told.
>> You'll have to find someone else to argue with though.
>
> Yes. If it didn't bother you (and it clearly does) that a little boy wanted
> an iPad, you wouldn't have brought it up here. You really need to pay more
> attention to yourself and your family and less to what others want.

I think it is noteworthy comment about our society that a 7-year old
asked his mom for an Ipad. I guess it's a sign that there is a lot of
marketing going on.

Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:

>> I think it is noteworthy comment about our society that a 7-year old
>> asked his mom for an Ipad. I guess it's a sign that there is a lot of
>> marketing going on.
>
> Perhaps, but I think it is more a reflection of what parents are giving
> their kids these days. My own thoughts on that were - why in the hell does
> a 7 year old need and iPad? But - that's what parents do for and buy for
> their kids these days.
>

Virtual Lego? : )

On 8/30/12 2:44 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Thu, 30 Aug 2012 00:00:41 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> OK, but I don't see the correlation between Rolex and Apple. That you
>>>>>>> do, says as much about you than it does those who you
>>>>>>> talk about.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not sure. I heard about a 7 year-old today who asked his mom
>>>>>> to buy him an iPad. Do you think he saw *bling*?
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe but that just makes my point. *YOU* care about what some
>>>>> unknown little boy wants.
>>>>
>>>> No, I just happen to be in the coffee room when the said story was
>>>> told. You'll have to find someone else to argue with though.
>>>
>>> Yes. If it didn't bother you (and it clearly does) that a little
>>> boy wanted an iPad, you wouldn't have brought it up here. You
>>> really need to pay more attention to yourself and your family and
>>> less to what others want.
>>
>> I think it is noteworthy comment about our society that a 7-year old
>> asked his mom for an Ipad. I guess it's a sign that there is a lot of
>> marketing going on.
>
> Perhaps, but I think it is more a reflection of what parents are giving
> their kids these days. My own thoughts on that were - why in the hell does
> a 7 year old need and iPad? But - that's what parents do for and buy for
> their kids these days.
>

Not to start another whole debate.... well, that *is* what we do, so
here goes.....

Kids, especially very young ones, are doing extremely well with learning
on tablets. The touch interface has opened up whole new realms of early
developmental learning that were never before thought possible.

They have been especially revolutionary in helping autistic kids learn
and *communicate* with others. There are videos out there showing before
and after of kids with autism and it brings tears to your eyes to see
the difference it makes in their lives. Turns out these kids are just as
intelligent as "normal" kids and these tablets have been they only
really effective conduit to learning and communication for them.

I have friends with preschooler who are learning to read and write with
things, much faster than old-school flash cards, etc. Best part... they
seem to take to it themselves with very little supervision. The touch
screen interface seems to be the magic part of the equation in the case
of the autistic kids.

--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 8/31/2012 11:40 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>
>>
>> Excellent response, Mike ... and one that shines a bright light on the
>> profound ignorance being shown in this thread by those who protest
>> their innocence of being dissembling, while, post after post,
>> continue to spew thinly veiled snideness about technologies of which
>> they have no experience or ken.

I wonder how many others here, even those that own the technology, would
have used the term "gestures" with the same authority I did in
describing the Ipad's user interface. This coming from a non-owner.
Thus, I suggest, lack of ownership does not necessarily imply a lack of
awareness. I have some ownership of the technology, as we all do, just
because it's part of our culture. I also performed some due-diligence.
Some might quibble about my use of the word ownership, but in my mind
all U.S citizens are owners of the government, our natural resources and
our national debt (too).

Bill



>
> More of Karl's dribble where he tries to postion people in the way that he
> wants them to appear. Great woodworker - horrible reader. Thinly veiled is
> best applied to Karl's posts.
>
>

On 8/31/2012 12:26 PM, Bill wrote:
> On 8/31/2012 11:40 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Swingman wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Excellent response, Mike ... and one that shines a bright light on the
>>> profound ignorance being shown in this thread by those who protest
>>> their innocence of being dissembling, while, post after post,
>>> continue to spew thinly veiled snideness about technologies of which
>>> they have no experience or ken.
>
> I wonder how many others here, even those that own the technology, would
> have used the term "gestures" with the same authority I did in
> describing the Ipad's user interface. This coming from a non-owner.
> Thus, I suggest, lack of ownership does not necessarily imply a lack of
> awareness. I have some ownership of the technology, as we all do, just
> because it's part of our culture. I also performed some due-diligence.
> Some might quibble about my use of the word ownership, but in my mind
> all U.S citizens are owners of the government, our natural resources and
> our national debt (too).
>
> Bill

I noticed I use the words own and/or ownership in at least two different
ways. My meaning should be clear from the context. I apologize for any
inconvenience.



>
>
>
>>
>> More of Karl's dribble where he tries to postion people in the way
>> that he
>> wants them to appear. Great woodworker - horrible reader. Thinly
>> veiled is
>> best applied to Karl's posts.
>>
>>
>

On 8/31/12 11:06 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> I never stated that I thought touch screen was useless or bad. I only
> stated that it does not light my fire. I also said that it is great
on my
> cell phone but I don't see it as being so convenient on my laptop.
That's
> me - and that's what I have said throughout this thread. (Not suggesting
> you are saying anything different - being more generalized here).
>

I haven't paid close enough attention to know the specifics of the
latest bickering :-).....

For me, the touch screen will be of particular convenience for what I do
as a drummer. At some point I the near future, I will be replacing all
the electronics I use in live performance with an iPad or similar
tablet. Right now, I have many stand-alone devices that take up a lot of
space and need to be wired together. When using a laptop, I need to have
separate trigger pas if anything is to be done during a song. A mouse
just doesn't cut it when both your hands are busy. Even between songs,
having to put down the stick, grab the mouse to click of stuff is very
awkward.

These tablets and their apps combine so much of my hardware into one
little box. The touch interface and having most everything on one screen
makes life soooo much easier on stage.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 8/31/12 1:17 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>
>>
>> For me, the touch screen will be of particular convenience for what I
>> do as a drummer. At some point I the near future, I will be replacing
>> all the electronics I use in live performance with an iPad or similar
>> tablet. Right now, I have many stand-alone devices that take up a lot
>> of space and need to be wired together. When using a laptop, I need
>> to have separate trigger pas if anything is to be done during a song.
>> A mouse just doesn't cut it when both your hands are busy. Even
>> between songs, having to put down the stick, grab the mouse to click
>> of stuff is very awkward.
>>
>
> So - talk to me about that. As I have said in a previous post - I use the
> term mouse to be the same as eraser head, track ball, and any other
> alternative that may be out there. I tend to think of eraser heads or pads
> these days. So, as I think of it, they seem to be quite intuitive and
> quick.

I see the touch screen for computers as the same revolutionary
breakthrough that was the mouse. Before you have to type in codes on a
keyboard to get the computer to do a task. With the mouse, you point,
click and drag to do the task. That was obviously more intuitive,
simpler, and the user certainly had to "think" less about what he was
doing in order to get it done.
With the touch screen, the conduit between my hand and screen, that was
the mouse (trackball, etc.), is now erased and nothing stands between me
pointing, clicking and dragging. My hand is now the only conduit between
by brain and the task I wish the computer to do. Voice command, which
will improve in leaps and bounds, now removes the the hand as the
conduit. The next obvious revolution is to remove all conduits between
the brain and the computer by developing brain reading capabilities. :-)

So obviously, for me and I would think, most... touching the screen is
much more efficient than touching another object and having to
manipulate it to translate my intentions. Now, there are still times
when I like to have a mouse and keyboard, but I suspect that's just
because software hasn't kept up with interface technology.


> It is clear that you find the touch screen to be quicker or more
> intuitive. Remember - I'm a touch screen guy - my Galaxy S3 has a great
> touch screen that I love. But - I'm thinking simply in terms of how I use
> my laptop and what touch screen would mean to that usage, so since you use
> yours differently, I'm interested in what you have to say.
>
> It may be that we use our junk differently and that that's just how it is,
> for those who really proclaim the values of touch screen, I'm interested in
> hearing why they feel that way.
>
>> These tablets and their apps combine so much of my hardware into one
>> little box. The touch interface and having most everything on one
>> screen makes life soooo much easier on stage.
>
> I can see some of that. Partial vision if you will. It's hard to really
> grasp it because I don't really know what you are doing in total. You
> know - it's what you don't know that you don't know.
>

Here's what going on when I'm performing on stage with the use of
electronics. The reasons and specific situation that might lead to me
using one or more of these devices isn't pertinent, so I get into the whys.

In any given performance/rehearsal situation, I may have one, more, or
all of the following devices on stage, beside me. Metronome("click"),
laptop, loops/drum machine, triggering pads/pedals, audio/midi
interface, digital music player, in-ear monitor amp and mixer, beat-bug
device (drumming "tachometer" tell me how fact I'm playing), chart book
of songs, set list, and whatever else I'm forgetting.

In addition to actually performing music on stage, my hands and/or feet
are also periodically occupied with pushing buttons and turning knobs on
all these devices, and using the mouse to do stuff on the laptop.

Many to most of these tasks are done between songs, like flipping the
page in the chart book, setting the click to the next song, setting the
music player to the next song and listening to its preview, selecting
the next song on the computer to play loops and/or accompanying tracks,
selecting the next bank of samples on the triggering device, etc.

But many of these tasks and others are done during a song performance,
during a tacet section or while I'm actually still playing drums...
adjusting my in-ear mix/volume, adjusting the click or beat bug,
triggering samples/loops/backing tracks, doing tasks on some devices to
set up the next song if there is little or no break between the next
song, and other stuff I forget.

An iPad or similar tablet removes many of these separate devices from
the equation and combines them into one box, in many cases for cheaper
than the sum total of all the devices. It removes a lot of the wiring
and inter-connectivity. It takes up a fraction of the space. It gives me
ONE surface on which to make adjustments for many tasks that previously
required different surfaces in different locations. It removes the
mouse/track pad from the equation and allows me to touch what I want to
happen. That alone, for my specific use in stage performance, makes it
totally worth the price of admission.

There are tablet apps out there right now, that allow you to make a set
list for a performance that includes your sheet music/charts, a
metronome/click, and audio samples of each song... all of which get
triggered by touching the next song on the screen... OR can be set to
start automatically after the previous song stops. Rearranging the set
list is as easy as touching and dragging each song title up or down on
the screen and could take less than a minute. It could take 20 minutes
with all the separate devices. 20 minutes may not seem like long, unless
the artists decides to change the set list 5 minutes before curtain. :-)

I'll stop there, because it's already very long winded... hopefully
that's a good enough explanation.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 8/31/12 3:19 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 8/31/12 1:17 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>
>>
>> I'll stop there, because it's already very long winded... hopefully
>> that's a good enough explanation.
>
> It was Mike - thanks for the effort. All I can say is that you do way, way,
> way too much!

That's one perspective. :-) It seems like a lot when it's all
written out but it's just been a natural evolution of making things
better and easier to do in making music. A lot like woodworking...
after years of doing it, we acquire a lot of tools, jigs and gadgets.
From the outside someone might look at all the stuff we use and like we
do way, way, way to much just to make a simple chair. We didn't decide,
one day, to be a woodworker and go to woodcraft and buy everything in
our shop in one afternoon. We also made our first chair using a lot,
lot few things than we now use.


> As a musician, I cannot imagine doing all of that stuff you
> outlined. Nor could I imagine putting up with someone who was that focused
> on things besides making the music. God Bless ya - I just can't understand
> it.

It's not a matter of putting up with them. It's a matter of wanting to...
1. offer the best possible situation to those hiring me,
2. be as competitive as possible as a professional musician, and
3. make my job easier.
You may look at all that stuff as being more difficult, but it actually
makes my job as a professional side man easier.

One year, I looked back at my charts from the previous couple years
(never throw them out!) and realized that I had to "learn" over 300
songs in that period of time. I put "learn" in quote because often times
you never end up actually learning the tunes. When I get called to sub a
weekend road gig on Wednesday and the bus leaves Friday, there's no way
I'm going to "learn" 16 songs in 36 hours. Hopefully, the regular
drummer gives me his charts. But other times, it's a new artist who goes
through a lot of musicians and they just haven't planned ahead enough,
so I have to chart them all.

I have a shorthand charting system, similar to the Nashville Number
System, that I use to write out a quick road map of the song. I can do
about a song an hour that includes playing through the song on drums a
couple times, but sometimes I don't get to do that. In most cases, I
haven't even heard most of the songs before (if I'm lucky, I'm familiar
with some of the covers), let alone played them enough to look at a
title on a set list and instantly recognize the tempo, groove, and intro
fill, so I can count it in and go. That's what the metronome, mp3
player/laptop, and charts are for.

In the time it would take me to look at a chart and read whatever
rhythms I notated or slang terms I used to tell me how the song starts
(120bpm / Bo Diddley beat / intro: pat boone-debbie boone), I can listen
to the beginning of the song cued up on the mp3 player or laptop through
my in-ears and be instantly reminded of the tempo, the groove, and
exactly how the song starts and am already singing it in my head. I can
be a lot more confident that way and I can start the song with a lot
more authority. Singers and players notice those things and it makes
them play better and enjoy the performance more. It also keeps the phone
ringing. :-)

The BeatBug device is also something that makes life a lot easier when
you have to play with an artist and other musicians with which you may
have never played. If a metronome is cruise control, then the BeatBug is
a speedometer. It doesn't tell me how fast to play, it tells me how fast
I am playing. As we all know, many groups play songs faster or slower
than they are on their records. Other times, there are just a lot of
people on stage with horrible time and they just will not stay with you
no matter how hard you pull the reigns. These are a couple reasons I
might have to either turn the click off or pay a lot more attention than
usual to the tempo of the song. I can glance at the BeatBug to see where
we are playing the song and if it feels good, notate that on my chart.
If if felt great to everyone, I can start that song at that tempo the
next night. If the singer or band leader says, "Hey, <insert title here>
was a bit too fast" or "was dragging a bit," I can reference the tempo I
marked down and adjust accordingly. If the singer says, "It was took
fast" and the BL says, "It was dragging," then I know I'm in for a fun
weekend. :-)


I think you have created a technology trap of your own devices, but - I
> get it. You are trying to do something and you're using everything that
> fits that effort. I've just never - not ever, played with any musician that
> was this encumbered by technology. And I've played with some real
> technology nuts...
>

See, you call it encumbering, whereas I call it enabling.
It's all still making music, even though you may see it as "other
things." There are times when I show up with nothing more than drum
sticks and music is made, sometimes it's great music, sometimes, bad.
There are those who saw electronic keyboards as cheating or focusing on
sounds rather than music. I see them as just another way for an artist
to bring across what he hears in his head. That's what all the other
things I use (laptop/tracks/loops/samples/trigger pads) do for the
artists for whom I play. It allows an artist who can't afford an
orchestra, horn section, or 9 piece rhythm section to still sound the
way she does on her CD with 3 or 4 accompanying musicians. It allows her
to still give her audience a 'big' show and still be an affordable act
for the promoter.

Now you may be tempted to start lamenting modern music and its use of
backing tracks and how bands were so much better back in the day when
they only had 4 guys and they played everything themselves. Before you
do, go on Youtube and do a search for The Who. Check out the old clips
of the original band and you'll see a lot of live performances with
Keith Moon wearing big studio headphones. It wasn't because he started
to take an interest in protecting his hearing. It's because Pete started
writing his songs with synthesizer and they recorded with string
sections and other instruments they didn't play live, but they wanted
the audience to hear the whole songs, live. Keith wore the headphones to
hear the tape playback and stay in time. They weren't the only band
doing that.

What is done in live performance, now, is not new. It's just more
affordable, portable and accessible.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 8/31/12 3:51 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 8/31/2012 3:02 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> An iPad or similar tablet removes many of these separate devices from
>> the equation and combines them into one box, in many cases for cheaper
>> than the sum total of all the devices. It removes a lot of the wiring
>> and inter-connectivity. It takes up a fraction of the space. It gives me
>> ONE surface on which to make adjustments for many tasks that previously
>> required different surfaces in different locations. It removes the
>> mouse/track pad from the equation and allows me to touch what I want to
>> happen. That alone, for my specific use in stage performance, makes it
>> totally worth the price of admission.
>>
>> There are tablet apps out there right now, that allow you to make a set
>> list for a performance that includes your sheet music/charts, a
>> metronome/click, and audio samples of each song... all of which get
>> triggered by touching the next song on the screen... OR can be set to
>> start automatically after the previous song stops. Rearranging the set
>> list is as easy as touching and dragging each song title up or down on
>> the screen and could take less than a minute. It could take 20 minutes
>> with all the separate devices. 20 minutes may not seem like long, unless
>> the artists decides to change the set list 5 minutes before curtain. :-)
>
> I've been using the iPad app "OnSong" for chord charts and music when
> playing.
>
> Freaking awesome is the only way to describe it.
>
> You can enter charts a number of ways, including downloading them off
> the 'net; multiple charts/set lists for playing with different bands;
> charts can be set to the tempo of the tune so they scroll up the screen,
> in time, as the tune is being played, no page turning; you can set it to
> follow along with music on the device; transposing keys on chord charts
> is a one touch gesture (great for when singers sit in and don't sing it
> the band's usual key); it can be synched to other devices in the band
> over BT, onstage while playing; plays a click track; works with foot
> pedals, will output to VGA/HDMI stage monitor; DropBox import/export; no
> need for music stand lights, ad infinitum.
>
> Use it once onstage and you won't go back to a songbook or paper chord
> charts, guaranteed. :)
>

That looks like another good one, Karl. Great thing about an iPad for
what I do, is that they are coming out with new apps (freakin cheap,
too) all the time or upgrading the one you already have for cheap. So
instead of trying to sell outdated hardware to upgrade to the improved
stuff, you just buy another app.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Swing, This is the origin of the reply you replied to earlier--it
contained nothing I wrote. I have nothing against, Mike M., but I don't
want credit for his posts.


Mike Marlow wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>
>>
>> Excellent response, Mike ... and one that shines a bright light on the
>> profound ignorance being shown in this thread by those who protest
>> their innocence of being dissembling, while, post after post,
>> continue to spew thinly veiled snideness about technologies of which
>> they have no experience or ken.
>
> More of Karl's dribble where he tries to postion people in the way that he
> wants them to appear. Great woodworker - horrible reader. Thinly veiled is
> best applied to Karl's posts.
>
>

On 8/31/2012 12:06 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:

> I never stated that I thought touch screen was useless or bad. I only
> stated that it does not light my fire. I also said that it is great on my
> cell phone but I don't see it as being so convenient on my laptop.

I own an Ipad and I don't want a touch screen on my DT. Don't own a
laptop myself. The touch screen is tits on the Ipad, and if you like it
on your cell, you would love it on the Ipad.

As far as owning or needing an Ipad, I'd say swing has a good use for
it, showing pictures of work and planned work to his customers. The
Ipad is in my opinion, the best tool for this, better than a laptop
because it is smaller, lighter, super graphics, works Kooly and, last
but not least, it is not a WINDOWS piece of crap, so it always works,
and works well.

As far as bling goes, I'd say the koolness factor of an Ipad could be
bling, but useful bling, and since the bling is useful, it's not so much
bling as good functional design (I'm talking touchscreen here, more than
why you are going to need an Ipad.) Festool is the same, no bling to
speak of, they make the best tool they can possibly make. About the
only bling with a Festool is the price. Charging a ton for a tool sells
a lot of tools to rich bankers, rich teachers and government hacks.
Tradesman tend to drive Ford pickups stuffed with
Milwaukee/Makita/Rigid/Bosch tools. For most of them it seems, the
bling (high price) is a negative. BTW, I asked a 7th tradesman, a small
contractor swing style, and he did hear of Festool, but doesn't own any.

Myself, I didn't really want an Ipad, my son bought me one last xmas.
When I found out it cost as much as a good Festool sander, I was a
little miffed he wasted that much on an Ipad, he could have wasted it on
a sander like Leon uses and made sanding "fun" for me.

I use it mostly as a radio. With Iheart radio, a free app, I can listen
to many hundreds of radio stations all over the country. So, if I feel
like listing to Beck, limbaugh, savage, and they are preempted on my
local station for some dumb ass sports broadcast, I can listen to them
on any of a hundred stations any where in the USA on the Ipad. Very
cool. For music, I like Pandora. It plays mostly what I like, and with
the Ipad, I can hook it up to my house stereo and listen to it all over
the house, or hook it up to my shop stereo, and listen in my shop. I'm
listening to Pandora right now, but I guess I could be listening via my
PC since I'm on it.

It's also nice when watching TV and I want to check out something on the
net, it's right there, same in my shop. About everything else I've done
with the Ipad is close to useless for me. I have a nice recipe app, and
it is tits (34B), but I don't cook much. I have a free app that turns
it into a police scanner for 9 billion police/fire/rescue all over the
country. No interest here. A billion games, I don't do games. I read
one kindle book on it, I paid about as much for the book as I would have
if I got the actual book, probably more. Now if I want to give the book
to someone else to read, I have to give them the freaking Ipad as well.
I'd rather buy a book for 1 penny + 3.99 shipping on Amazon. Only way
to go on books.

Anyway, IMNSHO, you most likely are in no need of an Ipad, unless you
want to show potential customers pictures of stuff you make, or ideas of
what you can build for them. If you are a gamer, plenty of games.
If you have $5-600 just itching to be spent on something you don't
really need, I'd buy a festool Rotex sander. But thats just me trusting
Leons opinion on sanders.

Oh, my wife has a nookie or whatever that thing is called. She is on it
20 hours a day, plays some kind of interactive word game with goofballs
all over the place and gambles (shudder) on line. She often takes it
with her. It's not as good as the Ipad BUT, it fits in her purse.

So, other than the touchscreen being really nice on the Ipad, you are
pretty much right on, on the rest of your thoughts.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 8/30/2012 2:44 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Thu, 30 Aug 2012 00:00:41 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> OK, but I don't see the correlation between Rolex and Apple. That you
>>>>>>> do, says as much about you than it does those who you
>>>>>>> talk about.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not sure. I heard about a 7 year-old today who asked his mom
>>>>>> to buy him an iPad. Do you think he saw *bling*?
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe but that just makes my point. *YOU* care about what some
>>>>> unknown little boy wants.
>>>>
>>>> No, I just happen to be in the coffee room when the said story was
>>>> told. You'll have to find someone else to argue with though.
>>>
>>> Yes. If it didn't bother you (and it clearly does) that a little
>>> boy wanted an iPad, you wouldn't have brought it up here. You
>>> really need to pay more attention to yourself and your family and
>>> less to what others want.
>>
>> I think it is noteworthy comment about our society that a 7-year old
>> asked his mom for an Ipad. I guess it's a sign that there is a lot of
>> marketing going on.
>
> Perhaps, but I think it is more a reflection of what parents are giving
> their kids these days. My own thoughts on that were - why in the hell does
> a 7 year old need and iPad? But - that's what parents do for and buy for
> their kids these days.
>


Not every 7 year old needs to have an iPad. We still need people to
collect garbage, read electric meters, mow yards, etc.
Keep up or fall behind, that is a plain and simple fact of life.
The same thing was asked 10 years ago about lap tops.

FWIW with the public education system we have today our kids need every
advantage available to them. My son, just turned 25, has always been
around a PC. He sat in my lap at age 2 working letter and number games
on the computer.

Basically speaking here, you cannot start teaching kids values, common
sense, and educating them young enough.

On 8/31/2012 11:26 AM, Bill wrote:
> On 8/31/2012 11:40 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Swingman wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Excellent response, Mike ... and one that shines a bright light on the
>>> profound ignorance being shown in this thread by those who protest
>>> their innocence of being dissembling, while, post after post,
>>> continue to spew thinly veiled snideness about technologies of which
>>> they have no experience or ken.
>
> I wonder how many others here, even those that own the technology, would
> have used the term "gestures" with the same authority I did in
> describing the Ipad's user interface. This coming from a non-owner.
> Thus, I suggest, lack of ownership does not necessarily imply a lack of
> awareness. I have some ownership of the technology, as we all do, just
> because it's part of our culture. I also performed some due-diligence.
> Some might quibble about my use of the word ownership, but in my mind
> all U.S citizens are owners of the government, our natural resources and
> our national debt (too).
>
> Bill


The citizens of the US do own the government, natural resources, and
especially the national debt.

Unfortunately a majority of those in government office do not want you
to believe this fact, except for maybe the one about the national debt.

Unfortunately a majority of the citizens also believe as the government
wants you to believe.