A gloat at Sears?!?!

George Max wrote:
> Sorry to pee in your Cheerios, but Craftsman tools aren't much of a
> bargain even if they're free.

I have to agree. He could have done this:

http://www.amazon.com/Delta-GR275-Variable-Grinder-Tool-Less/dp/B0007WWHZC/sr=8-7/qid=1161889361/ref=pd_bbs_sr_7/102-8661301-0932106?ie=UTF8&s=hi

and this:

http://www.amazon.com/Delta-SM100M-10-Inch-Compound-Miter/dp/B000G0P5TK/sr=8-22/qid=1161889472/ref=sr_1_22/102-8661301-0932106?ie=UTF8&s=hi


The miter saw is a bit more, but it's 10" and probably a lot better
than the craftsman. I have an older version of this miter saw. It's
not great, but it does the job.

brian

Tim wrote:
> "brianlanning" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> You guys are just jealous because you don't get gloats.

It's not jealousy in this case, just a strong hatred for all things
craftsman. Their large tools (like the new table saws) have been
getting better. But they have had many many years of using their good
name to push junk on people. Just ask around about the random height
adjustment feature. I'd buy another ryobi tool before craftsman. And
that's saying a lot.

On the other hand, there's that new router that's a clone of the bosch.
I have to wonder if it's different or just a rebadge. iirc, the
craftsman is cheaper. I have to wonder why. It may just be marketing,
or maybe not. I would probably just buy the bosch to be sure unless I
could get a major discount on the craftsman.

brian

B A R R Y wrote:
> Don't be so sure...

I'm not at all sure. I just grabbed a link from amazon. :-)

> I had that (2) copies of that grinder, one via warranty. It was an
> unmitigated piece of crap, barely suitable for lawn mower blades. The
> speed control failed with barely 10 hours of use, the shafts had runout,
> and the tool rests stunk. About the only useable part was the lamp! 8^(
> I finally got a used Baldor, now I can grind tools!

But was it better than the craftsman? ;-)

The small delta tools I've had have been hit or miss. The drill press
I have has been great. So was the lunchbox planer. The benchtop
tablesaw was ok for what it was, which wasn't much. The benchtop
bandsaw and jointer were utter garbage. The delta 10" miter saw has
been ok, but hard to adjust and keep adjusted. It likes to deflect on
miter cuts also. It worked flawlessly when I cut all the 2x4s to
finish my basement though. As mortermer said, it's nice to have a
light-weight one around to carry to job sites if you need it. Having
said all that, the 12" PC miter saw is spectacular. I can actually see
myself cutting miters with it.

brian

Gary wrote:
> "brianlanning" <[email protected]> wrote
> Who do you think is building a lot of the tools for Craftsman these days?
> Table saws, hand tools? Yup: Ryobi.
> I shake my head when I see/hear people babbling that Craftsman is Crappe:
> Fact is that "Craftsman" doesn't make tools... They're rebadged Deltas, B&D,
> Ryobis, Bosch, etc., etc......

This is true. Later, I said that I would consider the router that's a
bosch rebadge, but only for a steep discount. Whenever this topic
comes up, I'm reminded of the "alpine" car stereos that were available
in honda civics and accords back in the late 80s/early 90s. They were
alpine in name only. Honda paid for the name, then alpine built them
to honda's standards which were more about economy and warrantees than
sound quality. So when sears rebadges any tool, I have to wonder if
it's really the *exact* same tool just with a red plastic case instead
of a blue one or whatever. The temptation has to be there to put in
cheaper bearings or weaker motors. It's not a bosch after all, right?
It's a craftsman now. But maybe people will assume that it's the same
as the bosch, thereby leaching some brand trust from bosch when it
isn't deserved. So bosch isn't risking anything by making a cheaper
tool for sears. They have plausible deniability. And sears only
stands to gain.

To make matters worse, quality is just a dial that the chinese
factories turn. The saws may all be coming from the same factory, but
they're definitly not built to the same quality. Bearings, paint
thickness, paint job quality, tolerances, whether things are balanced
or not before being put on, de-flashing on the castings. There's a
huge number of steps that can be skipped, corners cut. So not all
brands are created equal, even when coming from the same assembly line.

So it all comes down to trust. Do you trust the store/brand to live up
to an expected level of quality? then do you trust the store to stand
behind the tools when there's a problem?

I would buy a ryobi before a craftsman. Mainly because I wouldn't have
to deal with sears with the ryobi.


> Like all predjudices, this supposed hatred of all things Craftsman is born
> in ignorance.

...or maybe experience. And they're changing for the better these days
which makes the situation even cloudier. Since some of the tools are
turing out to be great, while others are still junk. How can you know
which this new tool is?


> Wanna say something that makes sense? Say that Sears charges way too much
> for most of their Craftsman products, and if you don't wait until they're on
> sale (big time) before you buy, well, you're stupid.
> _That_ would be true.

They're charging less than bosch for what looks like the exact same
router. Is bosch charging even more than too much? Is sears charging
the right amount while bosch is too high? Is it even the exact same
router? It's priced where it will sell. It doesn't matter what we
think. So if the price is too high, that means that the craftsman name
still (unjustifiably) carries a premium, possibly from people
remembering them from 30 years ago.

brian

[email protected] wrote:
> These two wins ALMOST make up for the rebates I have applied for over the
> years on computer crap and never received..

My favorite one was about seven or eight years ago. Some popular
retail computer site, I can't remember the url now
something-online.com. It was bought out by egghead or someone similar.
So they went on this huge liquidation sale. They used an online
auction to unload everything. But there wasn't enough people who knew
about it. So all sorts of software was going for $1 or $2, things that
should have been a lot more. I ended up buying some server backup
software similar to ghost for $10. When I received it, I discovered a
few things. First, it was novell only, so I couldn't use it. Second,
it normally went for about $1000 retail (i didn't know). Third, there
was a $200 rebate in it. I ended up getting the rebate.

brian

[email protected] wrote:
> These two wins ALMOST make up for the rebates I have applied for over the
> years on computer crap and never received..

My favorite one was about seven or eight years ago. Some popular
retail computer site, I can't remember the url now
something-online.com. It was bought out by egghead or someone similar.
So they went on this huge liquidation sale. They used an online
auction to unload everything. But there wasn't enough people who knew
about it. So all sorts of software was going for $1 or $2, things that
should have been a lot more. I ended up buying some server backup
software similar to ghost for $10. When I received it, I discovered a
few things. First, it was novell only, so I couldn't use it. Second,
it normally went for about $1000 retail (i didn't know). Third, there
was a $200 rebate in it. I ended up getting the rebate.

brian

[email protected] wrote:
> These two wins ALMOST make up for the rebates I have applied for over the
> years on computer crap and never received..

My favorite one was about seven or eight years ago. Some popular
retail computer site, I can't remember the url now
something-online.com. It was bought out by egghead or someone similar.
So they went on this huge liquidation sale. They used an online
auction to unload everything. But there wasn't enough people who knew
about it. So all sorts of software was going for $1 or $2, things that
should have been a lot more. I ended up buying some server backup
software similar to ghost for $10. When I received it, I discovered a
few things. First, it was novell only, so I couldn't use it. Second,
it normally went for about $1000 retail (i didn't know). Third, there
was a $200 rebate in it. I ended up getting the rebate.

brian

J. Clarke wrote:
> Uh, the regular price from Sears is 219.00, the Coastal Tools price on the
> Bosch is 209, and Bosch is including a router guide that's worth about 40
> bucks. So Sears is not charging less than Bosch unless you're talking
> suggested retail on the Bosch or the sale price on the Sears that is only
> good through tomorrow.

The last time I checked (maybe a year ago), sears was about $30 or $40
less than other places.

brian

If the jumper_intends_ to cut away his main parachute(and that is
fun!), then they are required to wear a third parachute per FAA
regulations. The container/harness system is modified or built with "D"
rings on the front to accept the third deployment system. Tom
George Max wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 02:43:28 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >A number of people I know have bought used parachutes. The first thing they
> >do is to have it inspected by a licensed rigger. In any case, if it fails,
> >they do have a reserve. The skydiving crowd tends to be a little crazy
> >though. They do jump with some strange stuff at times.
> >
>
> That's a good thing - careful inspection. Even better that they take
> more than one parachute. Do you know if they take only 2? Is it even
> possible to take 3?
>
> And crazy looks like a pretty fair description of people that jump
> from perfectly good airplanes.

George, I'd forget about the "FCC" part, as CW meant "FAA". Tom
George Max wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 23:42:13 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >It's federal law that requires the reserve parachute. That reserve must be
> >inspected, packed and signed off by an FCC licensed rigger while the main
> >"chute can be packed by the user. Yes, three parachutes have been carried by
> >jumpers while testing new designs. Statistically, one is far more likely to
> >be killed or injured driving to or from the airport than skydiving. Modern
> >designs are quite reliable.
> >
>
> Reliable - good to know.
>
> I learn something new every day.

Ahh, you're just like me. Thanks. Tom
CW wrote:
> Yep, it's one of them F words :)
> I'm also a HAM. Radio on the brain.
>
> "tom" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > George, I'd forget about the "FCC" part, as CW meant "FAA". Tom
> > George Max wrote:
> > > On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 23:42:13 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > > >It's federal law that requires the reserve parachute. That reserve must
> be
> > > >inspected, packed and signed off by an FCC licensed rigger while the
> main
> > > >"chute can be packed by the user. Yes, three parachutes have been
> carried by
> > > >jumpers while testing new designs. Statistically, one is far more
> likely to
> > > >be killed or injured driving to or from the airport than skydiving.
> Modern
> > > >designs are quite reliable.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Reliable - good to know.
> > >
> > > I learn something new every day.
> >

Tim wrote:
> I bought a "Mobile Notetaker" today; you jot your notes on it, and then feed
> it to a computer latter on.
> Normal price is $95; I got it marked down to $40, with a $50 rebate. They
> paid me $10 to take it.
>
> Okay, tear that one apart.

I'm beginning to fantasize about what kinds of projects I could make
from the pile of chips on your shoulders. You come here (presumably)
to share the experience and knowledge of long-time woodworkers (of
which I ain't one yet, btw) then you throw your toys out of your
playpen when most of them disagree with you. People who know tools
seem to generally agree: Craftsman aren't worth taking the chance for.
Deal with it.

FoggyTown

Tim wrote:
> You guys are just jealous because you don't get gloats. (I bought a $500
> leaf blower off craigslist for $50 last week. Kinda old, but starts on the
> first pull. Anyone want to try to tear that one down? Or maybe the
> parachute I bought at a garage sale for $18 and sold on ebay for $360? Or
> the 200bf of oak I bought on ebay for $1. Or the exercise machine I found
> in the street waiting for trash pickup that I sold on ebay for $450?)

Tim,

Some people on this group live to just crap on other people's posts...
Just ignore them.

Tim wrote:
> You guys are just jealous because you don't get gloats. (I bought a $500
> leaf blower off craigslist for $50 last week. Kinda old, but starts on the
> first pull. Anyone want to try to tear that one down? Or maybe the
> parachute I bought at a garage sale for $18 and sold on ebay for $360? Or
> the 200bf of oak I bought on ebay for $1. Or the exercise machine I found
> in the street waiting for trash pickup that I sold on ebay for $450?)

Tim,

Some people on this group live to just crap on other people's posts...
Just ignore them.

George Max wrote:


> Sorry to pee in your Cheerios, but Craftsman tools aren't much of a
> bargain even if they're free.




that's a blanket statement, and like all blanket statements it has a
grain (at least) of truth. however, it most emphatically is not
absolutely true. for instance, my 18" craftsman bandsaw from the '70s
made by parks is a total tank. I still have the first router I ever
owned, a pawnshop all metal r2d2 looking thing, that while not a great
piece of machinery refuses to die. the fact that I rarely use it
anymore may have something to do with that, though. my craftsman
wrenches and such are entirely adequate to my needs... though I'll
reach for the snapon and wright stuff first if I have them in the sizes
I need.

nah, craftsman tools can't all be painted the same color, unless you're
JOAT.

"Tim" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "brianlanning" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> George Max wrote:
>>> Sorry to pee in your Cheerios, but Craftsman tools aren't much of a
>>> bargain even if they're free.
>>
>> I have to agree. He could have done this:
>>
>> http://www.amazon.com/Delta-GR275-Variable-Grinder-Tool-Less/dp/B0007WWHZC/sr=8-7/qid=1161889361/ref=pd_bbs_sr_7/102-8661301-0932106?ie=UTF8&s=hi
>>
>> and this:
>>
>> http://www.amazon.com/Delta-SM100M-10-Inch-Compound-Miter/dp/B000G0P5TK/sr=8-22/qid=1161889472/ref=sr_1_22/102-8661301-0932106?ie=UTF8&s=hi
>>
>>
>> The miter saw is a bit more, but it's 10" and probably a lot better
>> than the craftsman. I have an older version of this miter saw. It's
>> not great, but it does the job.
>>
> Well, lets see... my grinder is 8" rather than 6", it has a slower
> bottom speed, and a more powerful motor; all for $8 less. Yeah, I think I
> pick the better one. (Sears has one identical to the Delta 6" for $50.)
>
> The Delta miter saw is twice the price and too large for what wanted.
> Hmm. I think I chose correctly.
>
> You guys are just jealous because you don't get gloats. (I bought a $500
> leaf blower off craigslist for $50 last week. Kinda old, but starts on
> the first pull. Anyone want to try to tear that one down? Or maybe the
> parachute I bought at a garage sale for $18 and sold on ebay for $360? Or
> the 200bf of oak I bought on ebay for $1. Or the exercise machine I found
> in the street waiting for trash pickup that I sold on ebay for $450?)
>

BURRRRRRRRPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 00:06:32 GMT, Nova <[email protected]> wrote:

>Mapdude wrote:
>> They have a jig saw that is identical (at leat externally) to the Bosch.
>> I am curious if they are the same internally.
>>
>>
>
>I've always wondered what a manufacturer does with the parts that don't
>meet their internal quality control spec's. ;-)

They get assembled and then badged to sell at Sears.

George Max (in [email protected]) said:

| That's a good thing - careful inspection. Even better that they
| take more than one parachute. Do you know if they take only 2? Is
| it even possible to take 3?

It's possible - but the question is really: Once you've determined
that the current chute is not going to do the job, how much time is
available to deploy the next? From "Beautiful Streamer" (US
paratrooper's lullabye): "Time is elapsing - and here is the ground."

There's always the inclination to attempt to correct any problem with
the currently deployed canopy before releasing it and trying the
reserve...

| And crazy looks like a pretty fair description of people that jump
| from perfectly good airplanes.

Ok.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

George Max (in [email protected]) said:

| On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 19:11:09 -0500, "Morris Dovey"
| <[email protected]> wrote:
|
|| George Max (in [email protected]) said:
||
||| That's a good thing - careful inspection. Even better that they
||| take more than one parachute. Do you know if they take only 2?
||| Is it even possible to take 3?
||
|| It's possible - but the question is really: Once you've determined
|| that the current chute is not going to do the job, how much time is
|| available to deploy the next? From "Beautiful Streamer" (US
|| paratrooper's lullabye): "Time is elapsing - and here is the
|| ground."
||
|| There's always the inclination to attempt to correct any problem
|| with the currently deployed canopy before releasing it and trying
|| the reserve...
|
| I thought about that while I was writing. Is there enough time to
| deploy a 2nd or 3rd or..... That ground is rush up mighty fast.

That pretty much depends on the jump. From 1200' (normal altitude for
military training jumps) there's plenty of time to open and shake out
a reserve chute. On a 300' combat jump a reserve would just be extra
baggage since a normal inflation can eat up to 200' of altitude.

I would guess that if the main canopy were deployed at 2000' or above,
there'd be time to try two more chutes. Nonetheless, any person who
has accumulated sufficient bad karma should probably stay on the
ground...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 18:58:16 -0400, "Gary" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>"brianlanning" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>> I'd buy another ryobi tool before craftsman.
>
>Who do you think is building a lot of the tools for Craftsman these days?
>Table saws, hand tools? Yup: Ryobi.
>
>I shake my head when I see/hear people babbling that Craftsman is Crappe:
>Fact is that "Craftsman" doesn't make tools... They're rebadged Deltas, B&D,
>Ryobis, Bosch, etc., etc......
>
>Not too long ago there was a brouhaha in here about a bunch of (economy) 14"
>bandsaws. All had their passionate champions and detractors. Funny thing was
>that most of the saws being discussed all came off the same line in China:
>The only difference was in the logos on the wheel covers.
>
>Like all predjudices, this supposed hatred of all things Craftsman is born
>in ignorance.
>
>Wanna say something that makes sense? Say that Sears charges way too much
>for most of their Craftsman products, and if you don't wait until they're on
>sale (big time) before you buy, well, you're stupid.
>
>_That_ would be true.
>
>Cheers!
>
>Gary
>

Sears as a major retailer and therefore major buyer of a manufacturers
output can and certainly does demand to meet a price point. You can
be certain that the manufacturer will use shortcuts to get there. If
that's fewer accessories in the box, fine. But when the shortcuts
involve something that compromises quality, like bushings instead of
ball bearings, pot metal instead of cast aluminum, etc., that's bad.

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 18:19:06 GMT, "Tim" <[email protected]> wrote:

>I bought a "Mobile Notetaker" today; you jot your notes on it, and then feed
>it to a computer latter on.
>Normal price is $95; I got it marked down to $40, with a $50 rebate. They
>paid me $10 to take it.
>
>Okay, tear that one apart.
>
Get back to us when you actually receive the rebate...:)

"CW" <[email protected]> wrote

> Craftsman bashing is the in thing here. Some have had
> experience, most are just "me too" types.

It would seem so :)

I honestly don't give a crappe one way or the other... I guess my problem is
with predjudice in any form (shrug)

I have Craftsman, DeWalt, Delta, Freud, Ridgid, and Ryobi power tools. Oh,
and a B&D belt sander.... I buy whatever goes on sale (big-time sale, I
mean) because I know that, by and large, there isn't much difference:
They're either made in a place with good Quality Control and are expensive,
or made in a place with poor Quality Control and are cheap. The rest is
pretty much fluff.

As for hand tools, I used to be a Snap-On snob, but I fortunately grew out
of that. In these days of no-questions-asked lifetime guarantees and most of
the stuff coming from the same couple of manufactures anyway, paying for the
Big Name is plain stoopit. Er, IMHO ;)

Cheers!

Gary

"George Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 17:22:18 GMT, "Tim" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>I am just learning to turn, and thought a slow 8" grinder would be nice to
>>sharpen gouges. Sears has one on sale for $100.
>>
>>As much as I love my RAS it is a lousy miter saw; but I don't have room
>>for
>>a miter saw. Sears has a 7.25" on sale for $80. I figure I can stick it
>>on
>>the shelf below the RAS.
>>
>>Good buys, but I don't "really" need them. Then I get an email that
>>online
>>orders are 10% off. Can't resist. But when I order them they come up as
>>$70 and $58!
>>
>>So, I got $210 worth of tools for $128. Not a huge gloat, but from
>>Sears...
>>
>
> Sorry to pee in your Cheerios, but Craftsman tools aren't much of a
> bargain even if they're free.

Is that based on personal experience, or just nonsense you have heard?
I have had a craftsman TS and RAS for years and they are both very decent.
These tool seem alright also. Okay, they are not likely to hold up as well
as $250 tools, but they didn't cost $250.

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 21:32:13 -0400, "Gary" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>"CW" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>> Craftsman bashing is the in thing here. Some have had
>> experience, most are just "me too" types.
>
>It would seem so :)
>
>I honestly don't give a crappe one way or the other... I guess my problem is
>with predjudice in any form (shrug)
>
>I have Craftsman, DeWalt, Delta, Freud, Ridgid, and Ryobi power tools. Oh,
>and a B&D belt sander.... I buy whatever goes on sale (big-time sale, I
>mean) because I know that, by and large, there isn't much difference:
>They're either made in a place with good Quality Control and are expensive,
>or made in a place with poor Quality Control and are cheap. The rest is
>pretty much fluff.
>
>As for hand tools, I used to be a Snap-On snob, but I fortunately grew out
>of that. In these days of no-questions-asked lifetime guarantees and most of
>the stuff coming from the same couple of manufactures anyway, paying for the
>Big Name is plain stoopit. Er, IMHO ;)
>
>Cheers!
>
>Gary
>

Buying solely on price doesn't make much sense either. There really
is a reason a Big Name became a big name. And I don't mean hype. I
mean they perform well.

There are many reasons for buying one thing instead of another but
lets face facts - some brands/tools that cost more are that way
because they really are a superior product.

They are permanent. I get to look at the scars everyday...and not be able to
make a complete fist as well...

Allen


"George Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 23:43:02 GMT, "Allen Roy" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"George Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 01:21:38 GMT, "Allen Roy" <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>it depends on the
>>>>specific tool.
>>>>
>>>>Now some of the Makita stuff...that's garbage..
>>>>
>>>>Allen
>>>
>>> My Makita router, 3601B, wonderful. It's got a real knuckebuster for
>>> a collet, but it always does what it's supposed to do and has a lot of
>>> power. No fancy stuff like soft start or variable speed, just good
>>> honest quality.
>>>
>>
>> Hence why I said some....
>>
>> I had a recip saw from Makita that broke 2 inches into the first cut.
>>Fustrated, I took it back and exchanged it. It lasted about 6 months of
>>use
>>(light duty) then came time for some heavy use when the end of it exploded
>>in my hand. A trip to the ER and OR fixed my hand but for some reason they
>>were quick to settle before it turned into a lawsuit. And yes it was the
>>same thing that broke the second time taking more of the saw with it this
>>time.
>>
>> Then to boot I had an older Makita drill that lasted through a lot of
>>heavy use. Broke the day the doctor let me back into the shop and all I
>>was
>>doing was drilling a 1/4" hole through some pine.
>>
>> But my dad swears by there circ saws.
>>
>>Allen
>>
>
> Wow. an exploding reciprocating saw.
>
> I hope your injuries weren't permanent.
>
> It seems a flat out honest thing to say that no manufacturer makes the
> best in each category of tool.
>
> Hence the endless posts about is this blurfl any good?

"brianlanning" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> George Max wrote:
>> Sorry to pee in your Cheerios, but Craftsman tools aren't much of a
>> bargain even if they're free.
>
> I have to agree. He could have done this:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Delta-GR275-Variable-Grinder-Tool-Less/dp/B0007WWHZC/sr=8-7/qid=1161889361/ref=pd_bbs_sr_7/102-8661301-0932106?ie=UTF8&s=hi
>
> and this:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Delta-SM100M-10-Inch-Compound-Miter/dp/B000G0P5TK/sr=8-22/qid=1161889472/ref=sr_1_22/102-8661301-0932106?ie=UTF8&s=hi
>
>
> The miter saw is a bit more, but it's 10" and probably a lot better
> than the craftsman. I have an older version of this miter saw. It's
> not great, but it does the job.
>
> brian

The grinder you mention is a 6 inch. Sears has that one for 69.95. (Not
that I would want one)

Max

I had a district manager from Sears explain it to me a long time ago when I
worked there as a salesman and later dept. manager. Some are a straight
re-label which usually are there "professional" or "Sears Best" tools. The
ones that offer little savings over the originals. Next are the
re-specified. Look like the nice competitors tools but are half the cost and
a fraction of the quality. Usually these are the "better" quality (LOL) they
push in the ads. Most of the time they are made with junk or poor quality
parts by the original manufactuer. The last is the entry level tools. These
are mostly their design and are made much the same way as the "better" tools
except by a plant they own. The only difference is the power, weight, size,
etc. These are the "good" tools they advertise all the time. Yes some of the
lower quality can be fine. I actually have one of their RO sanders that I
like better than a PC that I just bought.

My random height adjustment router, automatic diagonal cut circ saw, and
tension free band saw from Sears are hardly worth there weight in mud. But
the biscuit joiner, RO sander, 6" bench grinder, and hand held grinder that
I have from them are actually pretty decent. So I guess it depends on the
specific tool.

Now some of the Makita stuff...that's garbage..

Allen

"Gary" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "George Max" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>> Sorry to pee in your Cheerios, but Craftsman tools aren't much of a
>> bargain even if they're free.
>
> Oh? What, exactly, are "Craftsman tools"?
>
> Would a Delta tool be OK if it was free?
>
> A Ryobi?
>
> How about a Bosch? B&D?Freud?
>
> Cheers!
>
> Gary (shaking my head)
>

In article <[email protected]>,
brianlanning <[email protected]> wrote:
<...snipped...>
>But was it better than the craftsman? ;-)
>
>The small delta tools I've had have been hit or miss. The drill press
>I have has been great. So was the lunchbox planer. The benchtop
>tablesaw was ok for what it was, which wasn't much. The benchtop
>bandsaw and jointer were utter garbage. The delta 10" miter saw has
>been ok, but hard to adjust and keep adjusted. It likes to deflect on
>miter cuts also. It worked flawlessly when I cut all the 2x4s to
>finish my basement though. As mortermer said, it's nice to have a
>light-weight one around to carry to job sites if you need it. Having
>said all that, the 12" PC miter saw is spectacular. I can actually see
>myself cutting miters with it.
>
>brian
>

I don't believe that you will find a decent benchtop bandsaw or
benchtop jointer frim _any_ manufacturer.
--
No dumb questions, just dumb answers.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore, Maryland - [email protected]

Yeah, what he said.....

Tim wrote:

> Well, lets see... my grinder is 8" rather than 6", it has a slower bottom
> speed, and a more powerful motor; all for $8 less. Yeah, I think I pick the
> better one. (Sears has one identical to the Delta 6" for $50.)
>
> The Delta miter saw is twice the price and too large for what wanted. Hmm.
> I think I chose correctly.
>
> You guys are just jealous because you don't get gloats. (I bought a $500
> leaf blower off craigslist for $50 last week. Kinda old, but starts on the
> first pull. Anyone want to try to tear that one down? Or maybe the
> parachute I bought at a garage sale for $18 and sold on ebay for $360? Or
> the 200bf of oak I bought on ebay for $1. Or the exercise machine I found
> in the street waiting for trash pickup that I sold on ebay for $450?)
>
>

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 11:36:08 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 18:19:06 GMT, "Tim" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>I bought a "Mobile Notetaker" today; you jot your notes on it, and then
>>>feed
>>>it to a computer latter on.
>>>Normal price is $95; I got it marked down to $40, with a $50 rebate.
>>>They
>>>paid me $10 to take it.
>>>
>>>Okay, tear that one apart.
>>>
>>Get back to us when you actually receive the rebate...:)
>
> The best I ever did was back when burnable Cds were just a couple years
> old and Fuji offered a rebate on stacks of 50. I managed to 'buy' 10
> stacks and I made $20 profit on each stack.
> I got 500 cds AND $200.
>
> Sandisk about 2 years ago were offering a $25 rebate on 256 mb cards. I
> sent in one rebate form and got 4 checks.
>
> These two wins ALMOST make up for the rebates I have applied for over the
> years on computer crap and never received..

I've never not gotten a rebate. Sometimes they were more trouble than they
were worth, but I always get them. I'm funny like that.

"George Max" <[email protected]> wrote

> You're far far of the mark.
>
> I work in engineering in exactly the kind of situation you're
> expounding on. My company makes many thousands of any particular
> model.
>
> It is in fact not especially difficult to make changes within any
> particular product to cheapen it.
>
> 30 years of my life are invested in product design and development.
> Don't hand me that line of crap. It is in fact extremely easy to make
> changes and substitutions that result in real cost savings for the
> manufacturer without inordinate expense to do so.

If I may, I think you have to put what he said in context.

Consider a factory in China pumping out billions of identical tools:
Everything is pretty much the same except for the colour of the plastic and
the badge they stick on them before they're boxed.

I agree that it would be far more expensive to retool the line in order to
"cheapen" something for (in this example) Sears, than it would be to just
keep the line going.

We're talking mass production here, and the *real* savings are in the "mass"
part: It make no sense to create a different product to make it cheaper:
They're already smokin' them out the door as cheaply as possible.

Cheers!

Gary

"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>>> most are just "me too" types.<<<

That's the most intelligent statement I've seen in this thread. RM~

George Max wrote:
>> As much as I love my RAS it is a lousy miter saw; but I don't have room for
>> a miter saw. Sears has a 7.25" on sale for $80. I figure I can stick it on
>> the shelf below the RAS.


Ordinarily I'm a proponent of buying tools you can grow into since I've pissed
away so much money in the past buying what I needed for today, only to find it
wasn't enough tool for tomorrow's project. That being said, if that little
miter saw can cut 2X4s, it'll be quite a bit handier to take to the small jobs
around the house than that great big 12" Dewalt I own. Even with its rolling
stand and work supports, it's a horse. I really end up thinking about whether
it's worth my time to set it up for small jobs. He'll do better with his little
one. If the work is bigger, he's no worse off than before... he still has his
RAS.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

J. Clarke wrote:
>
> Uh, the regular price from Sears is 219.00, the Coastal Tools price on the
> Bosch is 209, and Bosch is including a router guide that's worth about 40
> bucks. So Sears is not charging less than Bosch unless you're talking
> suggested retail on the Bosch or the sale price on the Sears that is only
> good through tomorrow.

Not to mention that Coastal is way more fun to visit than any Sears I've
ever seen.

Lee Gordon wrote:
>
> This week's Powerball jackpot os $83,000,000. DAMHIKT.
>
> Lee


My wife is in charge of that. The problem is that she only remembers
when the news is covering someone else's winning ticket. <G>

They have a jig saw that is identical (at leat externally) to the Bosch.
I am curious if they are the same internally.


brianlanning wrote:

> Tim wrote:
>
>>"brianlanning" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>You guys are just jealous because you don't get gloats.
>
>
> It's not jealousy in this case, just a strong hatred for all things
> craftsman. Their large tools (like the new table saws) have been
> getting better. But they have had many many years of using their good
> name to push junk on people. Just ask around about the random height
> adjustment feature. I'd buy another ryobi tool before craftsman. And
> that's saying a lot.
>
> On the other hand, there's that new router that's a clone of the bosch.
> I have to wonder if it's different or just a rebadge. iirc, the
> craftsman is cheaper. I have to wonder why. It may just be marketing,
> or maybe not. I would probably just buy the bosch to be sure unless I
> could get a major discount on the craftsman.
>
> brian
>

"George Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 01:21:38 GMT, "Allen Roy" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>it depends on the
>>specific tool.
>>
>>Now some of the Makita stuff...that's garbage..
>>
>>Allen
>
> My Makita router, 3601B, wonderful. It's got a real knuckebuster for
> a collet, but it always does what it's supposed to do and has a lot of
> power. No fancy stuff like soft start or variable speed, just good
> honest quality.
>

Hence why I said some....

I had a recip saw from Makita that broke 2 inches into the first cut.
Fustrated, I took it back and exchanged it. It lasted about 6 months of use
(light duty) then came time for some heavy use when the end of it exploded
in my hand. A trip to the ER and OR fixed my hand but for some reason they
were quick to settle before it turned into a lawsuit. And yes it was the
same thing that broke the second time taking more of the saw with it this
time.

Then to boot I had an older Makita drill that lasted through a lot of
heavy use. Broke the day the doctor let me back into the shop and all I was
doing was drilling a 1/4" hole through some pine.

But my dad swears by there circ saws.

Allen

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 08:04:19 -0500, George Max <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 01:21:38 GMT, "Allen Roy" <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>it depends on the
>>specific tool.
>>
>>Now some of the Makita stuff...that's garbage..
>>
>>Allen
>
>My Makita router, 3601B, wonderful. It's got a real knuckebuster for
>a collet, but it always does what it's supposed to do and has a lot of
>power. No fancy stuff like soft start or variable speed, just good
>honest quality.

Makita belt-sanders are awfully nice as well. Tried one head-to-head
against a Porter Cable, and the Makita was the better tool by far.
Same guy who had the sander swore by the 2.6amp cordless drill as
well.

On 26 Oct 2006 13:40:09 -0700, "brianlanning" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>But was it better than the craftsman? ;-)
>
>The small delta tools I've had have been hit or miss. The drill press
>I have has been great. So was the lunchbox planer. The benchtop
>tablesaw was ok for what it was, which wasn't much. The benchtop
>bandsaw and jointer were utter garbage. The delta 10" miter saw has
>been ok, but hard to adjust and keep adjusted. It likes to deflect on
>miter cuts also. It worked flawlessly when I cut all the 2x4s to
>finish my basement though. As mortermer said, it's nice to have a
>light-weight one around to carry to job sites if you need it. Having
>said all that, the 12" PC miter saw is spectacular. I can actually see
>myself cutting miters with it.

One major rule for buying Delta, learned the hard way. If it says
"Shopmaster", it's just a toy with the Delta logo on it, and you will
outgrow it- usually before it's even out of the box. If it says
"Industrial", it's a tool worth owning. True over 80% of the time on
the Delta stuff you'll find in the store these days- if I'd have known
that earlier, it would have saved me several hundred dollars.

On the bright side, the Delta logo counts for enough that even the
Shopmaster line keeps it's value pretty well if you decide to resell
it.

Mapdude wrote:
> They have a jig saw that is identical (at leat externally) to the Bosch.
> I am curious if they are the same internally.
>
>

I've always wondered what a manufacturer does with the parts that don't
meet their internal quality control spec's. ;-)

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 08:08:34 -0500, George Max <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 19:00:36 -0400, "Gary" <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>"George Max" <[email protected]> wrote
>>
>>> Sorry to pee in your Cheerios, but Craftsman tools aren't much of a
>>> bargain even if they're free.
>>
>>Oh? What, exactly, are "Craftsman tools"?
>
>Since you're clueless, they're the ones sold at Sears.

...or K-Mart....

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 23:43:02 GMT, "Allen Roy" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"George Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 01:21:38 GMT, "Allen Roy" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>it depends on the
>>>specific tool.
>>>
>>>Now some of the Makita stuff...that's garbage..
>>>
>>>Allen
>>
>> My Makita router, 3601B, wonderful. It's got a real knuckebuster for
>> a collet, but it always does what it's supposed to do and has a lot of
>> power. No fancy stuff like soft start or variable speed, just good
>> honest quality.
>>
>
> Hence why I said some....
>
> I had a recip saw from Makita that broke 2 inches into the first cut.
>Fustrated, I took it back and exchanged it. It lasted about 6 months of use
>(light duty) then came time for some heavy use when the end of it exploded
>in my hand. A trip to the ER and OR fixed my hand but for some reason they
>were quick to settle before it turned into a lawsuit. And yes it was the
>same thing that broke the second time taking more of the saw with it this
>time.
>
> Then to boot I had an older Makita drill that lasted through a lot of
>heavy use. Broke the day the doctor let me back into the shop and all I was
>doing was drilling a 1/4" hole through some pine.
>
> But my dad swears by there circ saws.
>
>Allen
>

Wow. an exploding reciprocating saw.

I hope your injuries weren't permanent.

It seems a flat out honest thing to say that no manufacturer makes the
best in each category of tool.

Hence the endless posts about is this blurfl any good?

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 13:45:09 -0500, George Max <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 17:22:18 GMT, "Tim" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>I am just learning to turn, and thought a slow 8" grinder would be nice to
>>sharpen gouges. Sears has one on sale for $100.
>>
>>As much as I love my RAS it is a lousy miter saw; but I don't have room for
>>a miter saw. Sears has a 7.25" on sale for $80. I figure I can stick it on
>>the shelf below the RAS.
>>
>>Good buys, but I don't "really" need them. Then I get an email that online
>>orders are 10% off. Can't resist. But when I order them they come up as
>>$70 and $58!
>>
>>So, I got $210 worth of tools for $128. Not a huge gloat, but from Sears...
>>
>
>Sorry to pee in your Cheerios, but Craftsman tools aren't much of a
>bargain even if they're free.

Not exactly true, that. I've got some really nice tools from Sears in
the past. They're all hand tools, but I wouldn't trade the chisels I
bought there for anything else. Ditto for the dovetail saw, and a few
other smaller items.

All of them have Craftsman logos, and they're all very nice. Couldn't
say about the power tools, as there has always been a more attractive
option elsewhere.

"brianlanning" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Tim wrote:
>> "brianlanning" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> You guys are just jealous because you don't get gloats.
>
> It's not jealousy in this case, just a strong hatred for all things
> craftsman. Their large tools (like the new table saws) have been
> getting better. But they have had many many years of using their good
> name to push junk on people. Just ask around about the random height
> adjustment feature. I'd buy another ryobi tool before craftsman. And
> that's saying a lot.
>
> On the other hand, there's that new router that's a clone of the bosch.
> I have to wonder if it's different or just a rebadge. iirc, the
> craftsman is cheaper. I have to wonder why. It may just be marketing,
> or maybe not. I would probably just buy the bosch to be sure unless I
> could get a major discount on the craftsman.

If it's a "Craftsman Professional" and looks just like a Bosch except for
the colors and the nameplate then it's almost certainly a Bosch. For a
while they were selling a rebadged Bosch jigsaw too.

Nice thing about Sears is that they buy a ton of parts for whatever they
sell and hold onto them until the use up the stock. I can still get parts
for my old radial arm saw, while Bosch USA doesn't even know that the jigsaw
I got at the same time ever existed.

"brianlanning" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Gary wrote:
>> "brianlanning" <[email protected]> wrote
>> Who do you think is building a lot of the tools for Craftsman these days?
>> Table saws, hand tools? Yup: Ryobi.
>> I shake my head when I see/hear people babbling that Craftsman is Crappe:
>> Fact is that "Craftsman" doesn't make tools... They're rebadged Deltas,
>> B&D,
>> Ryobis, Bosch, etc., etc......
>
> This is true. Later, I said that I would consider the router that's a
> bosch rebadge, but only for a steep discount. Whenever this topic
> comes up, I'm reminded of the "alpine" car stereos that were available
> in honda civics and accords back in the late 80s/early 90s. They were
> alpine in name only. Honda paid for the name, then alpine built them
> to honda's standards which were more about economy and warrantees than
> sound quality. So when sears rebadges any tool, I have to wonder if
> it's really the *exact* same tool just with a red plastic case instead
> of a blue one or whatever. The temptation has to be there to put in
> cheaper bearings or weaker motors. It's not a bosch after all, right?
> It's a craftsman now. But maybe people will assume that it's the same
> as the bosch, thereby leaching some brand trust from bosch when it
> isn't deserved. So bosch isn't risking anything by making a cheaper
> tool for sears. They have plausible deniability. And sears only
> stands to gain.
>
> To make matters worse, quality is just a dial that the chinese
> factories turn. The saws may all be coming from the same factory, but
> they're definitly not built to the same quality. Bearings, paint
> thickness, paint job quality, tolerances, whether things are balanced
> or not before being put on, de-flashing on the castings. There's a
> huge number of steps that can be skipped, corners cut. So not all
> brands are created equal, even when coming from the same assembly line.
>
> So it all comes down to trust. Do you trust the store/brand to live up
> to an expected level of quality? then do you trust the store to stand
> behind the tools when there's a problem?
>
> I would buy a ryobi before a craftsman. Mainly because I wouldn't have
> to deal with sears with the ryobi.
>
>
>> Like all predjudices, this supposed hatred of all things Craftsman is
>> born
>> in ignorance.
>
> ...or maybe experience. And they're changing for the better these days
> which makes the situation even cloudier. Since some of the tools are
> turing out to be great, while others are still junk. How can you know
> which this new tool is?
>
>
>> Wanna say something that makes sense? Say that Sears charges way too much
>> for most of their Craftsman products, and if you don't wait until they're
>> on
>> sale (big time) before you buy, well, you're stupid.
>> _That_ would be true.
>
> They're charging less than bosch for what looks like the exact same
> router. Is bosch charging even more than too much? Is sears charging
> the right amount while bosch is too high? Is it even the exact same
> router? It's priced where it will sell. It doesn't matter what we
> think. So if the price is too high, that means that the craftsman name
> still (unjustifiably) carries a premium, possibly from people
> remembering them from 30 years ago.

Uh, the regular price from Sears is 219.00, the Coastal Tools price on the
Bosch is 209, and Bosch is including a router guide that's worth about 40
bucks. So Sears is not charging less than Bosch unless you're talking
suggested retail on the Bosch or the sale price on the Sears that is only
good through tomorrow.

"George Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 18:58:16 -0400, "Gary" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>"brianlanning" <[email protected]> wrote
>>
>>> I'd buy another ryobi tool before craftsman.
>>
>>Who do you think is building a lot of the tools for Craftsman these days?
>>Table saws, hand tools? Yup: Ryobi.
>>
>>I shake my head when I see/hear people babbling that Craftsman is Crappe:
>>Fact is that "Craftsman" doesn't make tools... They're rebadged Deltas,
>>B&D,
>>Ryobis, Bosch, etc., etc......
>>
>>Not too long ago there was a brouhaha in here about a bunch of (economy)
>>14"
>>bandsaws. All had their passionate champions and detractors. Funny thing
>>was
>>that most of the saws being discussed all came off the same line in China:
>>The only difference was in the logos on the wheel covers.
>>
>>Like all predjudices, this supposed hatred of all things Craftsman is born
>>in ignorance.
>>
>>Wanna say something that makes sense? Say that Sears charges way too much
>>for most of their Craftsman products, and if you don't wait until they're
>>on
>>sale (big time) before you buy, well, you're stupid.
>>
>>_That_ would be true.
>>
>>Cheers!
>>
>>Gary
>>
>
> Sears as a major retailer and therefore major buyer of a manufacturers
> output can and certainly does demand to meet a price point. You can
> be certain that the manufacturer will use shortcuts to get there. If
> that's fewer accessories in the box, fine. But when the shortcuts
> involve something that compromises quality, like bushings instead of
> ball bearings, pot metal instead of cast aluminum, etc., that's bad.

The trouble with that notion is that changing the design of mass-produced
products is a huge undertaking--the Sears contract would have to be a major
portion of Bosch's total sales for it to be worthwhile to retool to meet
their price. The Chinese, who seem to be doing just about anything to get
presence in the US market, are another story, but it's hard to imagine the
Chinese finding new corners to cut on their tool manufacture.

"George Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 20:22:39 GMT, "Tim" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>"brianlanning" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> George Max wrote:
>>>> Sorry to pee in your Cheerios, but Craftsman tools aren't much of a
>>>> bargain even if they're free.
>>>
>>> I have to agree. He could have done this:
>>>
>>> http://www.amazon.com/Delta-GR275-Variable-Grinder-Tool-Less/dp/B0007WWHZC/sr=8-7/qid=1161889361/ref=pd_bbs_sr_7/102-8661301-0932106?ie=UTF8&s=hi
>>>
>>> and this:
>>>
>>> http://www.amazon.com/Delta-SM100M-10-Inch-Compound-Miter/dp/B000G0P5TK/sr=8-22/qid=1161889472/ref=sr_1_22/102-8661301-0932106?ie=UTF8&s=hi
>>>
>>>
>>> The miter saw is a bit more, but it's 10" and probably a lot better
>>> than the craftsman. I have an older version of this miter saw. It's
>>> not great, but it does the job.
>>>
>>Well, lets see... my grinder is 8" rather than 6", it has a slower
>>bottom
>>speed, and a more powerful motor; all for $8 less. Yeah, I think I pick
>>the
>>better one. (Sears has one identical to the Delta 6" for $50.)
>>
>>The Delta miter saw is twice the price and too large for what wanted.
>>Hmm.
>>I think I chose correctly.
>
> Maybe. You bought for today. And when you get a hankerin' to build
> something too big for it tomorrow it won't look like as good a deal.
>
>>
>>You guys are just jealous because you don't get gloats. (I bought a $500
>>leaf blower off craigslist for $50 last week. Kinda old, but starts on
>>the
>>first pull. Anyone want to try to tear that one down? Or maybe the
>>parachute I bought at a garage sale for $18 and sold on ebay for $360? Or
>>the 200bf of oak I bought on ebay for $1. Or the exercise machine I found
>>in the street waiting for trash pickup that I sold on ebay for $450?)
>>
>
> If you need a leaf blower, that doesn't sound too bad.
>
> You bought a parachute at a garage sale? Care to trust it with your
> life? Who are your survivors going to look to if it's determined to
> be defective? IMO, that's an item better bought from a reputable
> supplier.
>
> Good deal on the oak. That's nice.
>
> Exercise machines are like that. I run a silent auction at my church
> every summer. Most years people are so eager to donate them I have to
> decline most of the ones offered. These are things people buy with
> the best intentions and then find excercise *really is* hard work.
>
> But the original point is that Sears isn't/hasn't been the best place
> to buy power tools. In addition to shoddy quality on most of them,
> their customer service is poor.
>
> I especially hate the extended warranty hard sell. My last shop vac
> came from Sears. A $50 unit that they tried pushing a $20 warranty
> on. I think they're using the warranty to pump up the profit.
> Instead of irritating me, why not sell a better built unit that's not
> likely to need repair and sell it for a little more? Quality will win
> over the long haul. The good word will spread. Then they won't be a
> laughingstock.

Asking if you want an extended warranty isn't "hard sell". If you think it
is you haven't ever _seen_ "hard sell". The last time I encountered "hard
sell" the salesmen didn't back off until Sam Colt became a party to the
negotiation.

"George Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 14:09:16 -0400, "J. Clarke"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>"George Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>>>
>>> Sears as a major retailer and therefore major buyer of a manufacturers
>>> output can and certainly does demand to meet a price point. You can
>>> be certain that the manufacturer will use shortcuts to get there. If
>>> that's fewer accessories in the box, fine. But when the shortcuts
>>> involve something that compromises quality, like bushings instead of
>>> ball bearings, pot metal instead of cast aluminum, etc., that's bad.
>>
>>The trouble with that notion is that changing the design of mass-produced
>>products is a huge undertaking--the Sears contract would have to be a
>>major
>>portion of Bosch's total sales for it to be worthwhile to retool to meet
>>their price. The Chinese, who seem to be doing just about anything to get
>>presence in the US market, are another story, but it's hard to imagine the
>>Chinese finding new corners to cut on their tool manufacture.
>>
>
> Grin
>
> It is hard to image what new corners could be cut if you think of
> making the most bottom of the barrel product possible. But that's not
> what has to be done. If Craftsman/Sears were to use the illusion of
> selling a tool that *looks* like a Bosch/PC/Milwaukee, then one only
> need to make one just like it inside and out, except make the
> appropriate substitutions.
>
> I find it very easy to believe that a company may be willing to sell
> themselves and build a few tens of thousands of units for Sears with
> Sears's price point requirement. Bosch or Porter Cable would know
> what to do to meet the cost requirement.

It would cost more to retool to make 10,000 units than would be saved by the
retooling.

It's not a matter of "knowing what to do", it's a matter of stopping the
line, tearing out tooling and machinery, installing new tooling and
machinery to produce the new design, restarting the line, making the run,
and then repeating the whole process again to go back to regular production.

Making design changes with hand-made one-offs is easy, making design changes
in something that is mass-produced is not a trivial undertaking and has very
significant costs. Further, most of the cost of making just about anything
is labor--substituting pot metal for aluminum won't reduce the labor.

"George Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 00:13:46 -0400, "J. Clarke"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>>
>>> I find it very easy to believe that a company may be willing to sell
>>> themselves and build a few tens of thousands of units for Sears with
>>> Sears's price point requirement. Bosch or Porter Cable would know
>>> what to do to meet the cost requirement.
>>
>>It would cost more to retool to make 10,000 units than would be saved by
>>the
>>retooling.
>>
>>It's not a matter of "knowing what to do", it's a matter of stopping the
>>line, tearing out tooling and machinery, installing new tooling and
>>machinery to produce the new design, restarting the line, making the run,
>>and then repeating the whole process again to go back to regular
>>production.
>>
>>Making design changes with hand-made one-offs is easy, making design
>>changes
>>in something that is mass-produced is not a trivial undertaking and has
>>very
>>significant costs. Further, most of the cost of making just about
>>anything
>>is labor--substituting pot metal for aluminum won't reduce the labor.
>>
>
> You're far far of the mark.
>
> I work in engineering in exactly the kind of situation you're
> expounding on. My company makes many thousands of any particular
> model.
>
> It is in fact not especially difficult to make changes within any
> particular product to cheapen it.
>
> 30 years of my life are invested in product design and development.
> Don't hand me that line of crap. It is in fact extremely easy to make
> changes and substitutions that result in real cost savings for the
> manufacturer without inordinate expense to do so.

If your company makes "thousands" you're probably using NC machines. That's
semicustom manufacture. Get to real high volume and you'll find that
purpose-made tooling is used, the changing of which isn't cheap.

On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 00:13:46 -0400, "J. Clarke"
<[email protected]> wrote:


>>
>> I find it very easy to believe that a company may be willing to sell
>> themselves and build a few tens of thousands of units for Sears with
>> Sears's price point requirement. Bosch or Porter Cable would know
>> what to do to meet the cost requirement.
>
>It would cost more to retool to make 10,000 units than would be saved by the
>retooling.
>
>It's not a matter of "knowing what to do", it's a matter of stopping the
>line, tearing out tooling and machinery, installing new tooling and
>machinery to produce the new design, restarting the line, making the run,
>and then repeating the whole process again to go back to regular production.
>
>Making design changes with hand-made one-offs is easy, making design changes
>in something that is mass-produced is not a trivial undertaking and has very
>significant costs. Further, most of the cost of making just about anything
>is labor--substituting pot metal for aluminum won't reduce the labor.
>

You're far far of the mark.

I work in engineering in exactly the kind of situation you're
expounding on. My company makes many thousands of any particular
model.

It is in fact not especially difficult to make changes within any
particular product to cheapen it.

30 years of my life are invested in product design and development.
Don't hand me that line of crap. It is in fact extremely easy to make
changes and substitutions that result in real cost savings for the
manufacturer without inordinate expense to do so.

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 01:21:38 GMT, "Allen Roy" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>it depends on the
>specific tool.
>
>Now some of the Makita stuff...that's garbage..
>
>Allen

My Makita router, 3601B, wonderful. It's got a real knuckebuster for
a collet, but it always does what it's supposed to do and has a lot of
power. No fancy stuff like soft start or variable speed, just good
honest quality.

brianlanning wrote:
>
> But was it better than the craftsman? ;-)
>
>

Unfortunately, they may originate from the same Chinese factory, right
next to the Harbor Freight and Grizzly assembly line. 8^( At least
Grizzly will stand behind it.

I like my small(er) Delta drill press too! This also goes for my DJ-20,
miter saw, and 12" disc sander.

The Delta 6" variable speed grinder truly seemed like they took the
cheapest Chinese example they could find, painted it gray, and slapped a
Delta name plate on it.

On the other hand, some Craftsman stuff is rebadged good stuff, like the
Crafstman version of the Bosch 1617EVS router. I'm not much of a
gambler, and the service SUCKS (capital!) at my local Sears entities, so
I personally skip all of it. Why deal with the hassle?

Luckily, when I need a burlfurl, I just go to Coastal Tool, run my
sticky fingers over all of the brands of burlfurl, and take the one that
sticks the best up to Wayne at the counter. <G> If I change my mind on
the way home, I can still go back and swap for the runner-up. Screw
Sears and guessing games! I can always gamble @ Foxwoods or Mohegan Sun
or on Powerball. <G>

<<Luckily, when I need a burlfurl, I just go to Coastal Tool, run my
sticky fingers over all of the brands of burlfurl, and take the one that
sticks the best up to Wayne at the counter. <G> If I change my mind on
the way home, I can still go back and swap for the runner-up. Screw
Sears and guessing games! I can always gamble @ Foxwoods or Mohegan Sun
or on Powerball. <G> >>

This week's Powerball jackpot os $83,000,000. DAMHIKT.

Lee

--
To e-mail, replace "bucketofspam" with "dleegordon"

_________________________________
Lee Gordon
http://www.leegordonproductions.com

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 17:22:18 GMT, "Tim" <[email protected]> wrote:

>I am just learning to turn, and thought a slow 8" grinder would be nice to
>sharpen gouges. Sears has one on sale for $100.
>
>As much as I love my RAS it is a lousy miter saw; but I don't have room for
>a miter saw. Sears has a 7.25" on sale for $80. I figure I can stick it on
>the shelf below the RAS.
>
>Good buys, but I don't "really" need them. Then I get an email that online
>orders are 10% off. Can't resist. But when I order them they come up as
>$70 and $58!
>
>So, I got $210 worth of tools for $128. Not a huge gloat, but from Sears...
>

Sorry to pee in your Cheerios, but Craftsman tools aren't much of a
bargain even if they're free.

On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 02:43:28 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:

>A number of people I know have bought used parachutes. The first thing they
>do is to have it inspected by a licensed rigger. In any case, if it fails,
>they do have a reserve. The skydiving crowd tends to be a little crazy
>though. They do jump with some strange stuff at times.
>

That's a good thing - careful inspection. Even better that they take
more than one parachute. Do you know if they take only 2? Is it even
possible to take 3?

And crazy looks like a pretty fair description of people that jump
from perfectly good airplanes.

Yep, it's one of them F words :)
I'm also a HAM. Radio on the brain.

"tom" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> George, I'd forget about the "FCC" part, as CW meant "FAA". Tom
> George Max wrote:
> > On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 23:42:13 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > >It's federal law that requires the reserve parachute. That reserve must
be
> > >inspected, packed and signed off by an FCC licensed rigger while the
main
> > >"chute can be packed by the user. Yes, three parachutes have been
carried by
> > >jumpers while testing new designs. Statistically, one is far more
likely to
> > >be killed or injured driving to or from the airport than skydiving.
Modern
> > >designs are quite reliable.
> > >
> >
> > Reliable - good to know.
> >
> > I learn something new every day.
>

On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 19:11:09 -0500, "Morris Dovey" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>George Max (in [email protected]) said:
>
>| That's a good thing - careful inspection. Even better that they
>| take more than one parachute. Do you know if they take only 2? Is
>| it even possible to take 3?
>
>It's possible - but the question is really: Once you've determined
>that the current chute is not going to do the job, how much time is
>available to deploy the next? From "Beautiful Streamer" (US
>paratrooper's lullabye): "Time is elapsing - and here is the ground."
>
>There's always the inclination to attempt to correct any problem with
>the currently deployed canopy before releasing it and trying the
>reserve...
>

I thought about that while I was writing. Is there enough time to
deploy a 2nd or 3rd or..... That ground is rush up mighty fast.

"brianlanning" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>>The last time I checked (maybe a year ago), sears was about $30 or $40
less than other places.<<

I caught it (Bosch/Craftsman router) on sale about a year ago for $179, then
got a Craftsman club 10% off of that, then another (Sears retiree) 10% off
of that. :)

PS, No! I did not get the extended warranty.

"brianlanning" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> George Max wrote:
>> Sorry to pee in your Cheerios, but Craftsman tools aren't much of a
>> bargain even if they're free.
>
> I have to agree. He could have done this:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Delta-GR275-Variable-Grinder-Tool-Less/dp/B0007WWHZC/sr=8-7/qid=1161889361/ref=pd_bbs_sr_7/102-8661301-0932106?ie=UTF8&s=hi
>
> and this:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Delta-SM100M-10-Inch-Compound-Miter/dp/B000G0P5TK/sr=8-22/qid=1161889472/ref=sr_1_22/102-8661301-0932106?ie=UTF8&s=hi
>
>
> The miter saw is a bit more, but it's 10" and probably a lot better
> than the craftsman. I have an older version of this miter saw. It's
> not great, but it does the job.
>
Well, lets see... my grinder is 8" rather than 6", it has a slower bottom
speed, and a more powerful motor; all for $8 less. Yeah, I think I pick the
better one. (Sears has one identical to the Delta 6" for $50.)

The Delta miter saw is twice the price and too large for what wanted. Hmm.
I think I chose correctly.

You guys are just jealous because you don't get gloats. (I bought a $500
leaf blower off craigslist for $50 last week. Kinda old, but starts on the
first pull. Anyone want to try to tear that one down? Or maybe the
parachute I bought at a garage sale for $18 and sold on ebay for $360? Or
the 200bf of oak I bought on ebay for $1. Or the exercise machine I found
in the street waiting for trash pickup that I sold on ebay for $450?)

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 19:36:58 GMT, "Tim" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>>>The Delta miter saw is twice the price and too large for what wanted.
>>>Hmm.
>>>I think I chose correctly.
>>
>> Maybe. You bought for today. And when you get a hankerin' to build
>> something too big for it tomorrow it won't look like as good a deal.
>>
>Well, I could use the RAS I mentioned.

Yes

>>>
>>>You guys are just jealous because you don't get gloats. (I bought a $500
>>>leaf blower off craigslist for $50 last week. Kinda old, but starts on
>>>the
>>>first pull. Anyone want to try to tear that one down? Or maybe the
>>>parachute I bought at a garage sale for $18 and sold on ebay for $360? Or
>>>the 200bf of oak I bought on ebay for $1. Or the exercise machine I found
>>>in the street waiting for trash pickup that I sold on ebay for $450?)
>>>
>>
>> If you need a leaf blower, that doesn't sound too bad.
>>
>I am in the middle of 100 acres of oak/maple/cherry. Sure do.

That's nice. Any plans on converting any of that to lumber?

>
>> You bought a parachute at a garage sale? Care to trust it with your
>> life? Who are your survivors going to look to if it's determined to
>> be defective? IMO, that's an item better bought from a reputable
>> supplier.
>>
>I have three jumps, and just thought it was a nice knickknack; never planned
>to use it. Selling it for a 2000% profit was serendipidy.
>

I'll say that's good luck for you. I really hope the buyer knows what
he's doing and inspects it thoroughly before using.

I used to scuba dive. Skydiving is just too much. If my tank ran out
of air, I could still make it to the surface. Probably. If my
parachute didn't open, well, I can't get back on the plane. Houston,
I have a problem.

A number of people I know have bought used parachutes. The first thing they
do is to have it inspected by a licensed rigger. In any case, if it fails,
they do have a reserve. The skydiving crowd tends to be a little crazy
though. They do jump with some strange stuff at times.

"George Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'll say that's good luck for you. I really hope the buyer knows what
> he's doing and inspects it thoroughly before using.
>
> I used to scuba dive. Skydiving is just too much. If my tank ran out
> of air, I could still make it to the surface. Probably. If my
> parachute didn't open, well, I can't get back on the plane. Houston,
> I have a problem.
>

On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 23:42:13 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:

>It's federal law that requires the reserve parachute. That reserve must be
>inspected, packed and signed off by an FCC licensed rigger while the main
>"chute can be packed by the user. Yes, three parachutes have been carried by
>jumpers while testing new designs. Statistically, one is far more likely to
>be killed or injured driving to or from the airport than skydiving. Modern
>designs are quite reliable.
>

Reliable - good to know.

I learn something new every day.

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 11:36:08 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

>On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 18:19:06 GMT, "Tim" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>I bought a "Mobile Notetaker" today; you jot your notes on it, and then feed
>>it to a computer latter on.
>>Normal price is $95; I got it marked down to $40, with a $50 rebate. They
>>paid me $10 to take it.
>>
>>Okay, tear that one apart.
>>
>Get back to us when you actually receive the rebate...:)

The best I ever did was back when burnable Cds were just a couple years
old and Fuji offered a rebate on stacks of 50. I managed to 'buy' 10
stacks and I made $20 profit on each stack.
I got 500 cds AND $200.

Sandisk about 2 years ago were offering a $25 rebate on 256 mb cards. I
sent in one rebate form and got 4 checks.

These two wins ALMOST make up for the rebates I have applied for over the
years on computer crap and never received..

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 20:22:39 GMT, "Tim" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"brianlanning" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> George Max wrote:
>>> Sorry to pee in your Cheerios, but Craftsman tools aren't much of a
>>> bargain even if they're free.
>>
>> I have to agree. He could have done this:
>>
>> http://www.amazon.com/Delta-GR275-Variable-Grinder-Tool-Less/dp/B0007WWHZC/sr=8-7/qid=1161889361/ref=pd_bbs_sr_7/102-8661301-0932106?ie=UTF8&s=hi
>>
>> and this:
>>
>> http://www.amazon.com/Delta-SM100M-10-Inch-Compound-Miter/dp/B000G0P5TK/sr=8-22/qid=1161889472/ref=sr_1_22/102-8661301-0932106?ie=UTF8&s=hi
>>
>>
>> The miter saw is a bit more, but it's 10" and probably a lot better
>> than the craftsman. I have an older version of this miter saw. It's
>> not great, but it does the job.
>>
>Well, lets see... my grinder is 8" rather than 6", it has a slower bottom
>speed, and a more powerful motor; all for $8 less. Yeah, I think I pick the
>better one. (Sears has one identical to the Delta 6" for $50.)
>
>The Delta miter saw is twice the price and too large for what wanted. Hmm.
>I think I chose correctly.

Maybe. You bought for today. And when you get a hankerin' to build
something too big for it tomorrow it won't look like as good a deal.

>
>You guys are just jealous because you don't get gloats. (I bought a $500
>leaf blower off craigslist for $50 last week. Kinda old, but starts on the
>first pull. Anyone want to try to tear that one down? Or maybe the
>parachute I bought at a garage sale for $18 and sold on ebay for $360? Or
>the 200bf of oak I bought on ebay for $1. Or the exercise machine I found
>in the street waiting for trash pickup that I sold on ebay for $450?)
>

If you need a leaf blower, that doesn't sound too bad.

You bought a parachute at a garage sale? Care to trust it with your
life? Who are your survivors going to look to if it's determined to
be defective? IMO, that's an item better bought from a reputable
supplier.

Good deal on the oak. That's nice.

Exercise machines are like that. I run a silent auction at my church
every summer. Most years people are so eager to donate them I have to
decline most of the ones offered. These are things people buy with
the best intentions and then find excercise *really is* hard work.

But the original point is that Sears isn't/hasn't been the best place
to buy power tools. In addition to shoddy quality on most of them,
their customer service is poor.

I especially hate the extended warranty hard sell. My last shop vac
came from Sears. A $50 unit that they tried pushing a $20 warranty
on. I think they're using the warranty to pump up the profit.
Instead of irritating me, why not sell a better built unit that's not
likely to need repair and sell it for a little more? Quality will win
over the long haul. The good word will spread. Then they won't be a
laughingstock.

brianlanning wrote:
> George Max wrote:
>> Sorry to pee in your Cheerios, but Craftsman tools aren't much of a
>> bargain even if they're free.
>
> I have to agree. He could have done this:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Delta-GR275-Variable-Grinder-Tool-Less/dp/B0007WWHZC/sr=8-7/qid=1161889361/ref=pd_bbs_sr_7/102-8661301-0932106?ie=UTF8&s=hi
>

Don't be so sure...

I had that (2) copies of that grinder, one via warranty. It was an
unmitigated piece of crap, barely suitable for lawn mower blades. The
speed control failed with barely 10 hours of use, the shafts had runout,
and the tool rests stunk. About the only useable part was the lamp! 8^(

I finally got a used Baldor, now I can grind tools!

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 14:39:17 -0400, "J. Clarke"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"George Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message

>> I especially hate the extended warranty hard sell. My last shop vac
>> came from Sears. A $50 unit that they tried pushing a $20 warranty
>> on. I think they're using the warranty to pump up the profit.
>> Instead of irritating me, why not sell a better built unit that's not
>> likely to need repair and sell it for a little more? Quality will win
>> over the long haul. The good word will spread. Then they won't be a
>> laughingstock.
>
>Asking if you want an extended warranty isn't "hard sell". If you think it
>is you haven't ever _seen_ "hard sell". The last time I encountered "hard
>sell" the salesmen didn't back off until Sam Colt became a party to the
>negotiation.
>

Sam Colt as a negotiation tool. Funny.

We're talking Sears, not Guido & Co. with the truckload of hot washing
machines.

In my experience they're doing a little more than asking. Maybe
that's initiative on the part of the droid operating the cash
register.

"brianlanning" <[email protected]> wrote

> I'd buy another ryobi tool before craftsman.

Who do you think is building a lot of the tools for Craftsman these days?
Table saws, hand tools? Yup: Ryobi.

I shake my head when I see/hear people babbling that Craftsman is Crappe:
Fact is that "Craftsman" doesn't make tools... They're rebadged Deltas, B&D,
Ryobis, Bosch, etc., etc......

Not too long ago there was a brouhaha in here about a bunch of (economy) 14"
bandsaws. All had their passionate champions and detractors. Funny thing was
that most of the saws being discussed all came off the same line in China:
The only difference was in the logos on the wheel covers.

Like all predjudices, this supposed hatred of all things Craftsman is born
in ignorance.

Wanna say something that makes sense? Say that Sears charges way too much
for most of their Craftsman products, and if you don't wait until they're on
sale (big time) before you buy, well, you're stupid.

_That_ would be true.

Cheers!

Gary

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 19:05:39 GMT, "Tim" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"George Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message

>> Sorry to pee in your Cheerios, but Craftsman tools aren't much of a
>> bargain even if they're free.
>
>Is that based on personal experience, or just nonsense you have heard?
>I have had a craftsman TS and RAS for years and they are both very decent.
>These tool seem alright also. Okay, they are not likely to hold up as well
>as $250 tools, but they didn't cost $250.
>

Personal experience. Althought the 6" jointer was o.k. but I sold it
(too short for my projects). The TS (with webbed cast iron extension
wings) was about to get tossed for accuracy problems, but I ended up
modifying it with a Biesemeyer fence, link belt and steel pulleys.
The cast pullys at the time I replaced them were worn heavily enough
in the V groove that they were near failure.

All the electric hand helds that received any regular use died an
early death. Armatures up in smoke, bad switches, mechanisms that
were more noise than work and so on.

Allow me to qualify what I mean by use - occassional
hobbyist/homeowner use. Not pro.

Also, all my Craftman electric tools were initially bought around 1980
to 1985.

The TS lasted until this past weekend when I sold it. Curiously, it
went to the same guy that bought the jointer. His projects are
smaller. It also replaces a Craftsman TS that's simply gone cow shit.
I guess he's a masochist.

It's federal law that requires the reserve parachute. That reserve must be
inspected, packed and signed off by an FCC licensed rigger while the main
"chute can be packed by the user. Yes, three parachutes have been carried by
jumpers while testing new designs. Statistically, one is far more likely to
be killed or injured driving to or from the airport than skydiving. Modern
designs are quite reliable.

"George Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 02:43:28 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
> That's a good thing - careful inspection. Even better that they take
> more than one parachute. Do you know if they take only 2? Is it even
> possible to take 3?
>
> And crazy looks like a pretty fair description of people that jump
> from perfectly good airplanes.

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 16:08:54 -0400, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
<mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote:

>George Max wrote:
>>> As much as I love my RAS it is a lousy miter saw; but I don't have room for
>>> a miter saw. Sears has a 7.25" on sale for $80. I figure I can stick it on
>>> the shelf below the RAS.
>
>
>Ordinarily I'm a proponent of buying tools you can grow into since I've pissed
>away so much money in the past buying what I needed for today, only to find it
>wasn't enough tool for tomorrow's project. That being said, if that little
>miter saw can cut 2X4s, it'll be quite a bit handier to take to the small jobs
>around the house than that great big 12" Dewalt I own. Even with its rolling
>stand and work supports, it's a horse. I really end up thinking about whether
>it's worth my time to set it up for small jobs. He'll do better with his little
>one. If the work is bigger, he's no worse off than before... he still has his
>RAS.


I didn't write what you've quoted, Tim did.

Craftsman bashing is the in thing here. Some have had experience, most are
just "me too" types.

"Tim" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Is that based on personal experience, or just nonsense you have heard?
> I have had a craftsman TS and RAS for years and they are both very decent.
> These tool seem alright also. Okay, they are not likely to hold up as
well
> as $250 tools, but they didn't cost $250.
>
>

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 19:00:36 -0400, "Gary" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>"George Max" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>> Sorry to pee in your Cheerios, but Craftsman tools aren't much of a
>> bargain even if they're free.
>
>Oh? What, exactly, are "Craftsman tools"?

Since you're clueless, they're the ones sold at Sears.

>
>Would a Delta tool be OK if it was free?

Maybe. Maybe not. If it were a DJ-20, definitely If it were their
14" bandsaw, definitely.

>
>A Ryobi?
>
>How about a Bosch? B&D?Freud?
>
>Cheers!
>
>Gary (shaking my head)
>

Shake your head until you're dizzy. 30 years of my experience says
avoid Sears for power tools. Or nowadays for almost anything.

Time was when Sears was my first choice for everything. Now they're
not my choice for anything.

Poor quality and bad customer service will do that.

I bought a "Mobile Notetaker" today; you jot your notes on it, and then feed
it to a computer latter on.
Normal price is $95; I got it marked down to $40, with a $50 rebate. They
paid me $10 to take it.

Okay, tear that one apart.

>>The Delta miter saw is twice the price and too large for what wanted.
>>Hmm.
>>I think I chose correctly.
>
> Maybe. You bought for today. And when you get a hankerin' to build
> something too big for it tomorrow it won't look like as good a deal.
>
Well, I could use the RAS I mentioned.
>>
>>You guys are just jealous because you don't get gloats. (I bought a $500
>>leaf blower off craigslist for $50 last week. Kinda old, but starts on
>>the
>>first pull. Anyone want to try to tear that one down? Or maybe the
>>parachute I bought at a garage sale for $18 and sold on ebay for $360? Or
>>the 200bf of oak I bought on ebay for $1. Or the exercise machine I found
>>in the street waiting for trash pickup that I sold on ebay for $450?)
>>
>
> If you need a leaf blower, that doesn't sound too bad.
>
I am in the middle of 100 acres of oak/maple/cherry. Sure do.

> You bought a parachute at a garage sale? Care to trust it with your
> life? Who are your survivors going to look to if it's determined to
> be defective? IMO, that's an item better bought from a reputable
> supplier.
>
I have three jumps, and just thought it was a nice knickknack; never planned
to use it. Selling it for a 2000% profit was serendipidy.

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 14:09:16 -0400, "J. Clarke"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"George Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>>
>> Sears as a major retailer and therefore major buyer of a manufacturers
>> output can and certainly does demand to meet a price point. You can
>> be certain that the manufacturer will use shortcuts to get there. If
>> that's fewer accessories in the box, fine. But when the shortcuts
>> involve something that compromises quality, like bushings instead of
>> ball bearings, pot metal instead of cast aluminum, etc., that's bad.
>
>The trouble with that notion is that changing the design of mass-produced
>products is a huge undertaking--the Sears contract would have to be a major
>portion of Bosch's total sales for it to be worthwhile to retool to meet
>their price. The Chinese, who seem to be doing just about anything to get
>presence in the US market, are another story, but it's hard to imagine the
>Chinese finding new corners to cut on their tool manufacture.
>

Grin

It is hard to image what new corners could be cut if you think of
making the most bottom of the barrel product possible. But that's not
what has to be done. If Craftsman/Sears were to use the illusion of
selling a tool that *looks* like a Bosch/PC/Milwaukee, then one only
need to make one just like it inside and out, except make the
appropriate substitutions.

I find it very easy to believe that a company may be willing to sell
themselves and build a few tens of thousands of units for Sears with
Sears's price point requirement. Bosch or Porter Cable would know
what to do to meet the cost requirement.

"George Max" <[email protected]> wrote

> Sorry to pee in your Cheerios, but Craftsman tools aren't much of a
> bargain even if they're free.

Oh? What, exactly, are "Craftsman tools"?

Would a Delta tool be OK if it was free?

A Ryobi?

How about a Bosch? B&D?Freud?

Cheers!

Gary (shaking my head)

<< >>> most are just "me too" types.<<<

That's the most intelligent statement I've seen in this thread. RM~ >>

Me too.


--
To e-mail, replace "bucketofspam" with "dleegordon"

_________________________________
Lee Gordon
http://www.leegordonproductions.com

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> George Max wrote:
>>> As much as I love my RAS it is a lousy miter saw; but I don't have room
>>> for
>>> a miter saw. Sears has a 7.25" on sale for $80. I figure I can stick
>>> it on
>>> the shelf below the RAS.
>
>
> Ordinarily I'm a proponent of buying tools you can grow into since I've
> pissed away so much money in the past buying what I needed for today, only
> to find it wasn't enough tool for tomorrow's project. That being said, if
> that little miter saw can cut 2X4s, it'll be quite a bit handier to take
> to the small jobs around the house than that great big 12" Dewalt I own.
> Even with its rolling stand and work supports, it's a horse. I really end
> up thinking about whether it's worth my time to set it up for small jobs.
> He'll do better with his little one. If the work is bigger, he's no worse
> off than before... he still has his RAS.
>
It will cut 2". And yes, I wanted it in particular because it weighs 16
pounds.

"Tim" <[email protected]> writes:

> I've never not gotten a rebate. Sometimes they were more trouble than they
> were worth, but I always get them. I'm funny like that.

I once bought a can of compressed air (for cleaning keyboards) from
CompUSA. I had to send them the UPC symbol can to get the
rebate.

It was printed on the metal of the can itself.

I made a copy, and told them in a note that I'd have to cut the metal
from the can (making the compressed air useless) to get the real UPC.

They rejected my rebate. I was pssssssssssssssssssssst.


--
Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to this account incurs a fee of
$500 per message, and acknowledges the legality of this contract.