For those of you in the south that got heavy snow accumulations

On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 17:54:25 -0500, [email protected] wrote:

>On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 12:54:45 -0700, Just Wondering
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On 1/29/2014 12:52 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>>> On 1/29/2014 2:34 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
>>>> On 1/29/2014 11:59 AM, woodchucker wrote:
>>>>> For those of you not in snow country..
>>>>> Some of you got dumped on..
>>>>>
>>>>> It pays to get the snow off the 1st 2 feet of the roof. I have a snow
>>>>> rake and get about 4 feet off. But assuming most of you southerners
>>>>> don't have it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Take a broom and try to get the 2 feet at the bottom of your roofs
>>>>> cleared. It may save you lots of money in rotted wood, or your shop if
>>>>> you have a basement shop.
>>>>>
>>>>> Years ago the ice damn caused a lot of water to run inside the house and
>>>>> it travelled the joists and soaked a lot of wood and also rusted a lot
>>>>> of stuff.
>>>>>
>>>> Your roof isn't constructed right. If it was, what you describe
>>>> wouldn't happen.
>>>
>>> Really. Ice damning is a normal occurrence.
>>
>>So what? If a roof is constructed properly, ice damming will not cause
>>water to do what you describe. There are millions of properly
>>constructed roofs to prove it.
> Built for southern conditions, then hit with snow, could conseivably
>cause ide dam problems. We build differently in snow zones.
>
>A "properly constructed" roof in Atlanta or New Orleans would not be
>built to handle snow and freeze-thaw cycles.

I see no difference in the (new home) roof construction here, compared
to the construction in Vermont. Roofs on newer homes tend to be
steeper, here, in fact. No idea why.

On Wed, 05 Feb 2014 10:32:58 -0600, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 2/5/2014 8:58 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>
>> More of an observation than a opinion: Four wheel drive, anti-lock
>> brakes, stability control, improvements in tires, etc. have given folks
>> an unwarranted sense of confidence. Another case of technology leading
>> to lost skills...
>
>Tailgating is something you used to rarely see on the roads around here,
>now it's epidemic.

Well, turn signals have gone the other way. Now you see THEM rarely.
>When schools used to actually teach it, driver's ed classes had a simple
>formula for estimating a safe distance between you and the car in front
>of you: one car length for every ten mph of speed on a dry road, add 1
>or 1 for other road conditions.

With the congestion, today, there aren't the roads to maintain that
distance. Sad, but a fact of life.

>My youngest daughter was instead taught the ‘Two Second Rule’ when she
>took DE.
>
>Problem is ‘The Two Second Rule’ requires more math skills to calculate
>... and schools no longer teach math skills. ;)
>
>The other problem is that if you do keep a safe distance between you and
>the car in front of you, some Asshat will immediately occupy it.

See above. ;-)

>IOW, I'll go with the "stupider" theory... ;)

Yep.

On 2/6/2014 8:45 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Thu, 6 Feb 2014 19:36:18 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Thu, 6 Feb 2014 08:37:52 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> They have thirty plows (or something like that) for a city of 4.5M.
>>>>> As far as not knowing how to use it, well, if you only have a need
>>>>> for it once every three to ten years, it's hard to remember (and
>>>>> keep the equipment up).
>>>>>
>>>>> The roads were ice, quite quickly. Salt would have fixed everything
>>>>> but THERE IS NO SALT AND NOTHING TO SPREAD IT WITH.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Then there's also the point that salt is only effective down to
>>>> about 20F and is completely ineffective at 10F by itself. Unless
>>>> they stockpile salt mixtures, they're screwed.
>>>
>>> That's rarely a problem in Atlanta. ;-)
>>>
>>> Salt still provides traction, even at -10F. In Vermont, they'd use
>>> straight salt all Winter. Sand turns to rock with any moisture and
>>> needs to be picked up in the Spring. Salt doesn't.
>>
>> Northeast regions usually use a salt mixture and not just salt.
>
> Usually but as you point out, salt doesn't work at low temperatures
> (doesn't work at all a 0F). If there is any water in the sand the
> salt will freeze solid in the salt sheds or on the trucks. Pure salt
> is easier to use at these temperatures. No clean up in the Spring is
> a bonus.
>
Salt mixture is not sand and salt.
It's different types of salt.

Lately they have been using Brine around the NY, NJ area.

--
Jeff

On 1/30/2014 10:18 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>> On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 13:59:18 -0500, woodchucker <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> For those of you not in snow country..
>>> Some of you got dumped on..
>>>
>>> It pays to get the snow off the 1st 2 feet of the roof. I have a snow
>>> rake and get about 4 feet off. But assuming most of you southerners
>>> don't have it.
>>>
>>> Take a broom and try to get the 2 feet at the bottom of your roofs
>>> cleared. It may save you lots of money in rotted wood, or your shop
>>> if you have a basement shop.
>>>
>>> Years ago the ice damn caused a lot of water to run inside the house
>>> and it travelled the joists and soaked a lot of wood and also rusted
>>> a lot of stuff.
>>>
>>> Just an FYI..
>>
>>
>> I would not think that a properly vented roof would ice dam.
>
> They sure do. All of the practices of creating venting, minimizing heat
> loss, etc. are valid, but they do not stop ice damns under the right
> conditions. That's why we use water and ice barriers in the north country.
> Mine extends probably 3 times higher up my roof than even the most cautious
> recommendations, and across my valleys as well.
>
> Metal roofs do go a lot further to combat this problem but you have to like
> that look. And... you have to think about all of that snow sliding off your
> roof - unintended consequences and all that stuff.
>

That might all depend on the type metal roof that you have. My last
house had a metal, aluminum, cedar shake roof. So snow may not slide
off easily at all.

On 1/30/2014 10:42 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>
>>
>> Yep, go figure. Since southerners obviously don't know understand ice
>> and snow, one of our 'winter Texans'/"snowbirds" from the NE was
>> tasked with that job. You know, one of those who collect unemployment
>> in NJ in the winter, while coming down here to work until it warms up
>> enough to go back. Unfortunately, he skidded off the road when it
>> rained here a couple of winters back and is currently collecting both
>> disability and unemployment.
>
> Wait a minute - you guys don't really have snowbirds, do you? I thought
> that everyone who migrated down to Texas simply stayed there.
>
> As for the displaced NJ employee - well hell - of course! These guys know
> how to work those systems. Disability is listed as a professional skill on
> their resumes.
>


The cant stand the heat, when it reaches 78F, and go back to where ever
they came from.

On 1/30/2014 7:01 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 13:59:18 -0500, woodchucker <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> For those of you not in snow country..
>> Some of you got dumped on..
>>
>> It pays to get the snow off the 1st 2 feet of the roof. I have a snow
>> rake and get about 4 feet off. But assuming most of you southerners
>> don't have it.
>>
>> Take a broom and try to get the 2 feet at the bottom of your roofs
>> cleared. It may save you lots of money in rotted wood, or your shop if
>> you have a basement shop.
>>
>> Years ago the ice damn caused a lot of water to run inside the house and
>> it travelled the joists and soaked a lot of wood and also rusted a lot
>> of stuff.
>>
>> Just an FYI..
>
>
> I would not think that a properly vented roof would ice dam.
>
Cut the amount of attic insulation to a minimum. The heat from the
house will melt the ice. No problem. There are some consequences of
going through an uninsulated winter, however.
mahalo,
jo4hn

On 2/6/2014 10:20 AM, Leon wrote:

>
> Or your are going down the highway on cruise control and catch up with
> the vehicle in the right lane, the same lane you are in. You pass him
> and pull back over in front of him and a mile later he is back in front
> of you and immediately slows down.
>
>
> Or as you attempt to pass using cruise control, he speeds up.

You are not the only one getting PO'd at that.

My best story though is when I was in the left lane passing. I'm on the
same 10 mile stretch of highway I've been using to go to work for 23
years. I set the cruise at 70 and just go, passing a radar trap at
least twice a week.

One day I'm in the left lane at 70 slowly passing a line of cars in the
right lane. A guy gets on my tail and is very impatient. I made him
wait until I passed the other cars, then moved to the right. He flew by
me and 100 yards later was pulled over by the State Police with radar.

On 1/29/2014 11:59 AM, woodchucker wrote:
> For those of you not in snow country..
> Some of you got dumped on..
>
> It pays to get the snow off the 1st 2 feet of the roof. I have a snow
> rake and get about 4 feet off. But assuming most of you southerners
> don't have it.
>
> Take a broom and try to get the 2 feet at the bottom of your roofs
> cleared. It may save you lots of money in rotted wood, or your shop if
> you have a basement shop.
>
> Years ago the ice damn caused a lot of water to run inside the house and
> it travelled the joists and soaked a lot of wood and also rusted a lot
> of stuff.
>
Your roof isn't constructed right. If it was, what you describe
wouldn't happen.

On 1/29/2014 12:52 PM, woodchucker wrote:
> On 1/29/2014 2:34 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
>> On 1/29/2014 11:59 AM, woodchucker wrote:
>>> For those of you not in snow country..
>>> Some of you got dumped on..
>>>
>>> It pays to get the snow off the 1st 2 feet of the roof. I have a snow
>>> rake and get about 4 feet off. But assuming most of you southerners
>>> don't have it.
>>>
>>> Take a broom and try to get the 2 feet at the bottom of your roofs
>>> cleared. It may save you lots of money in rotted wood, or your shop if
>>> you have a basement shop.
>>>
>>> Years ago the ice damn caused a lot of water to run inside the house and
>>> it travelled the joists and soaked a lot of wood and also rusted a lot
>>> of stuff.
>>>
>> Your roof isn't constructed right. If it was, what you describe
>> wouldn't happen.
>
> Really. Ice damning is a normal occurrence.

So what? If a roof is constructed properly, ice damming will not cause
water to do what you describe. There are millions of properly
constructed roofs to prove it.

My guy in Bufallo had his office in his house.

At least twice a year his wife would call in and tell us Jim was
shoveling
off the roof after a storm not only to keep ice dams from forming but
also
to reduce the snow load on the roof.

Every time we got that call could just visualize Jim loosing his
balance
and sliding off the roof.

Never happened, but still didn't keep me from sweating the operation
out
until Jim got back in the house and off the roof.

Housing codes vary all over the country.

You can use an asphalt shingle roof in the North East & Midwest, but
they
are about as useful as tits on a boar hog in the desert SW where tile
does
a better job.

Different horses for different courses.



Lew

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> No Kidding Man! That's one of the bigger issues with metal. Those
> cute little snow stops are about useless - ask anyone who has shared
> your experience. Plus - if you do have to get up on that roof (say
> to... oh,... maybe clean a chimney...), wel, you can imagine...

*snip*

I thought about putting a couple of them up over a Morton Building door.
Shut the door and whoosh! snow all over. I've been wondering if it'd be
worth the effort...

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

On 02/05/2014 09:32 AM, Swingman wrote:
>
> The other problem is that if you do keep a safe distance between you and
> the car in front of you, some Asshat will immediately occupy it.

This one in particular pisses me off, especially when towing my 5th
wheel and that ass-hat dives in and hits his brakes! It's a real
vocabulary expander...

--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

On 2/6/2014 6:33 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>
>>
>> The other problem is that if you do keep a safe distance between you
>> and the car in front of you, some Asshat will immediately occupy it.
>>
>
> A particular piss me right off thing! The other thing that pisses me right
> off is when you're on the interstate and traveling in the left lane. In the
> right lane is a truck that you are overtaking at a pretty good rate. Behind
> him is a car that is going somewhere between your speed and the speed of the
> truck. As you are just getting to the truck, the car pulls in front of you
> to pass the truck at his current rate of speed - because he simply can't
> kick off his cruise control until you pass. Never fails - it happens just
> as you are getting right up on the two of them. So now you're right on his
> bumper and he's continuing at his previous speed.
>

That's when you wish you were driving an M60.

http://tinyurl.com/kx4perz

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message news:[email protected]...

John Grossbohlin wrote:

> Last Wednesday morning one of those drivers got stuck on the railroad
> tracks just north of Gainesville... the AMTRAK train I was on hit the
> car shortly after the driver abandoned it. Net result was a tow
> truck was needed to pull the car out of the front of the train and we
> had a 2 hour 20 minute delay... I saw thousands of abandoned and
> trapped cars... 3-5 lane wide parking lots that went on for mile
> after mile! Glad we skirted most of the problems... ran into some
> closed roads though as so many cars were abandoned that they were
> blocked to further traffic. Crazy!

>I've seen similar types of congestion in the south where they just don't
>have the equipment to deal with this kind of storm. To be honest, our
>drivers up north are getting more and more stupid as the years go by. We
>see way more foolish stuff that people up here should just simply be aware
>of, but seemingly are not. I guess it just owes to the dumbing down of
>people. We don't see the same kind of problems since we are in the snow
>country and we at least do have the equipment to deal with it but we seem
>to be growing a newer and newer crop of stupidity.

From the Atlanta area news, as well as some "in the know" folks I was
visiting, they have equipment but don't know how to use it. I found it
rather funny that they weren't putting the sand/salt on the road "because
there were too many cars on the roads." They also didn't react soon enough.

More of an observation than a opinion: Four wheel drive, anti-lock brakes,
stability control, improvements in tires, etc. have given folks an
unwarranted sense of confidence. Another case of technology leading to lost
skills...

On 1/30/2014 11:52 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>> On 1/30/2014 10:18 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 13:59:18 -0500, woodchucker <[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> For those of you not in snow country..
>>>>> Some of you got dumped on..
>>>>>
>>>>> It pays to get the snow off the 1st 2 feet of the roof. I have a
>>>>> snow rake and get about 4 feet off. But assuming most of you
>>>>> southerners don't have it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Take a broom and try to get the 2 feet at the bottom of your roofs
>>>>> cleared. It may save you lots of money in rotted wood, or your shop
>>>>> if you have a basement shop.
>>>>>
>>>>> Years ago the ice damn caused a lot of water to run inside the
>>>>> house and it travelled the joists and soaked a lot of wood and
>>>>> also rusted a lot of stuff.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just an FYI..
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I would not think that a properly vented roof would ice dam.
>>>
>>> They sure do. All of the practices of creating venting, minimizing
>>> heat loss, etc. are valid, but they do not stop ice damns under the
>>> right conditions. That's why we use water and ice barriers in the
>>> north country. Mine extends probably 3 times higher up my roof than
>>> even the most cautious recommendations, and across my valleys as
>>> well. Metal roofs do go a lot further to combat this problem but you have
>>> to like that look. And... you have to think about all of that snow
>>> sliding off your roof - unintended consequences and all that stuff.
>>>
>>
>> That might all depend on the type metal roof that you have. My last
>> house had a metal, aluminum, cedar shake roof. So snow may not slide
>> off easily at all.
>
> Metal roofs up here are defined as sheet metal roofs. No cedar shakes, or
> anything else. I guess all things are relative but I thought that's what
> everybody defined a metal roof to be.
>


We have the standing seam roofs here too, cowboy house style roofs. ;~)

On 2/6/2014 7:33 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>
>>
>> The other problem is that if you do keep a safe distance between you
>> and the car in front of you, some Asshat will immediately occupy it.
>>
>
> A particular piss me right off thing! The other thing that pisses me right
> off is when you're on the interstate and traveling in the left lane. In the
> right lane is a truck that you are overtaking at a pretty good rate. Behind
> him is a car that is going somewhere between your speed and the speed of the
> truck. As you are just getting to the truck, the car pulls in front of you
> to pass the truck at his current rate of speed - because he simply can't
> kick off his cruise control until you pass. Never fails - it happens just
> as you are getting right up on the two of them. So now you're right on his
> bumper and he's continuing at his previous speed.
>


Or your are going down the highway on cruise control and catch up with
the vehicle in the right lane, the same lane you are in. You pass him
and pull back over in front of him and a mile later he is back in front
of you and immediately slows down.


Or as you attempt to pass using cruise control, he speeds up.

On Thu, 6 Feb 2014 08:37:52 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>
>>
>> They have thirty plows (or something like that) for a city of 4.5M. As
>> far as not knowing how to use it, well, if you only have a need for it
>> once every three to ten years, it's hard to remember (and keep the
>> equipment up).
>>
>> The roads were ice, quite quickly. Salt would have fixed everything
>> but THERE IS NO SALT AND NOTHING TO SPREAD IT WITH.
>>
>
>Then there's also the point that salt is only effective down to about 20F
>and is completely ineffective at 10F by itself. Unless they stockpile salt
>mixtures, they're screwed.

That's rarely a problem in Atlanta. ;-)

Salt still provides traction, even at -10F. In Vermont, they'd use
straight salt all Winter. Sand turns to rock with any moisture and
needs to be picked up in the Spring. Salt doesn't.

wrote in message news:[email protected]...

>>Lately they have been using Brine around the NY, NJ area.

>I've heard that but brine is just water and salt. Not sure what the
>advantage of that when it's too cold for salt to work at all.

Around here they put brine on the roads well before it snows/sleets. The
brine dries and then when the moisture hits it liquefies again and keeps the
snow from sticking. Followed up with salt after there is some accumulation,
combined with traffic churning the slush and the ice doesn't have a chance
to form. The prophylactic application of salt brine seems to work really
well and saves money much like another type of prophylactic saves money on
child rearing... ;~)

On 2/6/2014 11:03 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 2/6/2014 10:20 AM, Leon wrote:
>
>>
>> Or your are going down the highway on cruise control and catch up with
>> the vehicle in the right lane, the same lane you are in. You pass him
>> and pull back over in front of him and a mile later he is back in front
>> of you and immediately slows down.
>>
>>
>> Or as you attempt to pass using cruise control, he speeds up.
>
> You are not the only one getting PO'd at that.
>
> My best story though is when I was in the left lane passing. I'm on the
> same 10 mile stretch of highway I've been using to go to work for 23
> years. I set the cruise at 70 and just go, passing a radar trap at
> least twice a week.
>
> One day I'm in the left lane at 70 slowly passing a line of cars in the
> right lane. A guy gets on my tail and is very impatient. I made him
> wait until I passed the other cars, then moved to the right. He flew by
> me and 100 yards later was pulled over by the State Police with radar.


Yeah!

No one is in a hurry to get out and pass in the left lane until you do
so, and then every one wants to get out there and GO FAST!

I'm with you, If I am doing at least the speed limit I'm not going to
speed up as long as I am passing slower traffic.

On 2/5/2014 11:59 AM, [email protected] wrote:

> With the congestion, today, there aren't the roads to maintain that
> distance. Sad, but a fact of life.

Only at certain times of the day, and then mainly only in alternating
directions, is that true around here.

The rest of the time that, as an excuse for tailgating, doesn't hold water.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 2/14/2014 10:28 PM, Max wrote:
> On 2/6/2014 6:33 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Swingman wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> The other problem is that if you do keep a safe distance between you
>>> and the car in front of you, some Asshat will immediately occupy it.
>>>
>>
>> A particular piss me right off thing! The other thing that pisses me
>> right
>> off is when you're on the interstate and traveling in the left lane.
>> In the
>> right lane is a truck that you are overtaking at a pretty good rate.
>> Behind
>> him is a car that is going somewhere between your speed and the speed
>> of the
>> truck. As you are just getting to the truck, the car pulls in front of
>> you
>> to pass the truck at his current rate of speed - because he simply can't
>> kick off his cruise control until you pass. Never fails - it happens just
>> as you are getting right up on the two of them. So now you're right on
>> his
>> bumper and he's continuing at his previous speed.
>>
>
> That's when you wish you were driving an M60.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/kx4perz


WHO THE HELL SETS CRUISE CONTROL IN RAIN OR SNOW???

Fools

On 2/6/2014 1:21 PM, woodchucker wrote:

> That was you????
> Get out of the left lane at 70.....!!!!!
>
> Seriously in NJ 70 in the left is slow. Normal left lane speed is 80.
> When a guy sits in the left lane at 70, I just wish I had a missle
> launcher.
>
> On the back roads though, I pretty much travel like a farmer most of the
> time... I slow down and smell the roses... but on the highway get the F
> out of my way at 70
>

I've driven thousands of miles in Jersey at speeds much higher than 70.
Going to work though, I see radar a couple of times a week in the 10
mile stretch to the state line. Once past the last trap spot, I
increase to 75 to the state line, then there is a valley with good
visibility and never a cop. Depending on traffic, I run 85 to 95 for
about a mile. According to my GPS, my top is 123. Then back to 75.

On 1/30/2014 12:52 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>> On 1/30/2014 10:18 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 13:59:18 -0500, woodchucker <[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> For those of you not in snow country..
>>>>> Some of you got dumped on..
>>>>>
>>>>> It pays to get the snow off the 1st 2 feet of the roof. I have a
>>>>> snow rake and get about 4 feet off. But assuming most of you
>>>>> southerners don't have it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Take a broom and try to get the 2 feet at the bottom of your roofs
>>>>> cleared. It may save you lots of money in rotted wood, or your shop
>>>>> if you have a basement shop.
>>>>>
>>>>> Years ago the ice damn caused a lot of water to run inside the
>>>>> house and it travelled the joists and soaked a lot of wood and
>>>>> also rusted a lot of stuff.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just an FYI..
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I would not think that a properly vented roof would ice dam.
>>>
>>> They sure do. All of the practices of creating venting, minimizing
>>> heat loss, etc. are valid, but they do not stop ice damns under the
>>> right conditions. That's why we use water and ice barriers in the
>>> north country. Mine extends probably 3 times higher up my roof than
>>> even the most cautious recommendations, and across my valleys as
>>> well. Metal roofs do go a lot further to combat this problem but you have
>>> to like that look. And... you have to think about all of that snow
>>> sliding off your roof - unintended consequences and all that stuff.
>>>
>>
>> That might all depend on the type metal roof that you have. My last
>> house had a metal, aluminum, cedar shake roof. So snow may not slide
>> off easily at all.
>
> Metal roofs up here are defined as sheet metal roofs. No cedar shakes, or
> anything else. I guess all things are relative but I thought that's what
> everybody defined a metal roof to be.
>
You're talking standing seam metal roof, or corrugated Mike?


--
Jeff

On 1/30/2014 11:46 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 1/30/2014 10:42 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Swingman wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Yep, go figure. Since southerners obviously don't know understand ice
>>> and snow, one of our 'winter Texans'/"snowbirds" from the NE was
>>> tasked with that job. You know, one of those who collect unemployment
>>> in NJ in the winter, while coming down here to work until it warms up
>>> enough to go back. Unfortunately, he skidded off the road when it
>>> rained here a couple of winters back and is currently collecting both
>>> disability and unemployment.
>>
>> Wait a minute - you guys don't really have snowbirds, do you? I thought
>> that everyone who migrated down to Texas simply stayed there.
>
> Hopefully not. You know what Ol' Mammy sez: mixing a dog turd in with
> your ice cream doesn't make for a new and improved dog turd. ;)
>
>> As for the displaced NJ employee - well hell - of course! These guys
>> know
>> how to work those systems. Disability is listed as a professional
>> skill on
>> their resumes.
>
> For a hangnail?!
>
You actually must be talking about the 24 year old cop who is collecting
disablity for life for a staple wound.

Ridiculous.

It does screw up the really hurt people. My BIL got hurt on the job, he
was a Capt. Fireman in Jersey City. The city denied benefits. They
parked a guy out at his house for about 8mos. They claimed he was faking.

The judge appointed a neutral doctor.. the doctor confirmed that many
vertabrae were damaged and many disks were compressed. JC still offered
him only 40% of the normal disablity benefits. Then they refused to pay.
He had 3 or 4 surgeries so far, and is on a morphine drip (perm
machine inserted into him).

Then you have some idiot who collects with a staple wound. He was on
the radio, and he was told to put in for it by people in the state.



--
Jeff

On 1/30/2014 10:27 AM, woodchucker wrote:
> On 1/30/2014 11:25 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> woodchucker wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>> Ok, you get to believe what you want.
>>>
>>> I know that even a well insulated attic , well ventilated will still
>>> damn.
>>> The problem is the sun and air, it will melt the snow, and that will
>>> refreeze at night if cold enough (usually is). Then the rethaw will
>>> start the process over.... And that is where the problem occurs.
>>>
>>> When my house was built, they did not have the glue down membranes in
>>> use regularly. Now I believe they do. I am due for a new roof, but it
>>> will likely be a second layer.. so not really ideal for a membrane.
>>
>> Maybe, maybe not Jeff. You could strip back from the edge, down to the
>> deck. I would go at least twice what they recommend because I believe in
>> overkill. Went further on my own roof when I re-reoofed. But... lay
>> down
>> the membrane and shingle over it - even if you re-use the old shingles.
>> Then - proceed as if you were simply laying down a second layer over
>> the old
>> first layer. Though... I'm no believer in going over an existing
>> roof. I'm
>> kinda shocked that you are considering such a thing. Just does not seem
>> like the Jeff I see here. Oh hell - go for it - bring in a dumpster, pay
>> for the cheap labor and strip it right down to the deck like you
>> should. It
>> will look better and lay in better. You can do it Jeff...
>>
>
> Geez I'm speechless.
>
> When I'm ready we'll see what the price difference is.
> I like the metal roof look, would love to see how much that costs. But
> when I had a house in VT I remember the rain, the sound was incredible,
> but that was before they started insulating the roofs on the outside.
>

FWIW I had an Alcoa aluminum cedar shake metal roof installed on my
previous home. It was laid over the existing roof, but I suspect every
application and location may have different installation methods.
At the time, early 90's the aluminum roof was approximately 2.75 times
more expensive than composition.

Keep in mind also that insurance companies treat you differently with a
metal roof. Some will not insure you at all, some will charge more, and
if like mine I got a $200~300 discount for having a metal roof.

Our son bought that house in 2010 and the roof is holding up well to
this day. It came with a life time warranty and had I put up a
composition roof in the early 90's I would have had to of replaced it
already again.

On 1/30/2014 10:13 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>> On 1/30/2014 7:13 AM, Jeff Thies wrote:
>>
>>> Southerners do not understand ice and snow.
>>
>> Bullshit! We even have a snowplow:
>>
>> https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/zz81vWs7zJBSOVlPJdMk0NMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink
>
> Leave it to a Texan to put tire chains on the rear wheels of a front wheel
> drive car...

Yep, go figure. Since southerners obviously don't know understand ice
and snow, one of our 'winter Texans'/"snowbirds" from the NE was tasked
with that job. You know, one of those who collect unemployment in NJ in
the winter, while coming down here to work until it warms up enough to
go back. Unfortunately, he skidded off the road when it rained here a
couple of winters back and is currently collecting both disability and
unemployment.

--
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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 2/6/2014 12:03 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 2/6/2014 10:20 AM, Leon wrote:
>
>>
>> Or your are going down the highway on cruise control and catch up with
>> the vehicle in the right lane, the same lane you are in. You pass him
>> and pull back over in front of him and a mile later he is back in front
>> of you and immediately slows down.
>>
>>
>> Or as you attempt to pass using cruise control, he speeds up.
>
> You are not the only one getting PO'd at that.
>
> My best story though is when I was in the left lane passing. I'm on the
> same 10 mile stretch of highway I've been using to go to work for 23
> years. I set the cruise at 70 and just go, passing a radar trap at
> least twice a week.
>
> One day I'm in the left lane at 70 slowly passing a line of cars in the
> right lane. A guy gets on my tail and is very impatient. I made him
> wait until I passed the other cars, then moved to the right. He flew by
> me and 100 yards later was pulled over by the State Police with radar.
That was you????
Get out of the left lane at 70.....!!!!!

Seriously in NJ 70 in the left is slow. Normal left lane speed is 80.
When a guy sits in the left lane at 70, I just wish I had a missle launcher.

On the back roads though, I pretty much travel like a farmer most of the
time... I slow down and smell the roses... but on the highway get the F
out of my way at 70

--
Jeff

On 1/29/2014 2:51 PM, FrozenNorth wrote:
> On 1/29/2014 2:34 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
>> On 1/29/2014 11:59 AM, woodchucker wrote:
>>> For those of you not in snow country..
>>> Some of you got dumped on..
>>>
>>> It pays to get the snow off the 1st 2 feet of the roof. I have a snow
>>> rake and get about 4 feet off. But assuming most of you southerners
>>> don't have it.
>>>
>>> Take a broom and try to get the 2 feet at the bottom of your roofs
>>> cleared. It may save you lots of money in rotted wood, or your shop if
>>> you have a basement shop.
>>>
>>> Years ago the ice damn caused a lot of water to run inside the house and
>>> it travelled the joists and soaked a lot of wood and also rusted a lot
>>> of stuff.
>>>
>> Your roof isn't constructed right. If it was, what you describe
>> wouldn't happen.
>
> Yep, I have never worried about it in Canada is the 17 years I have been
> in this house, never a problem. Those in the deep south do not need to
> worry, it will all be melted in a couple days anyway.
>

It's the melting and freezing that's the problem.
When night comes and it refreezes it creates damns then the water runs
under the shingles when it melts again, since it can't go past the ice.,
and that's when you have problems.

Here in NJ, the roofs generally are pitched for moderate snow. Heavier
snows will cause problems.

--
Jeff

On 1/30/2014 10:01 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 13:59:18 -0500, woodchucker <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> For those of you not in snow country..
>> Some of you got dumped on..
>>
>> It pays to get the snow off the 1st 2 feet of the roof. I have a snow
>> rake and get about 4 feet off. But assuming most of you southerners
>> don't have it.
>>
>> Take a broom and try to get the 2 feet at the bottom of your roofs
>> cleared. It may save you lots of money in rotted wood, or your shop if
>> you have a basement shop.
>>
>> Years ago the ice damn caused a lot of water to run inside the house and
>> it travelled the joists and soaked a lot of wood and also rusted a lot
>> of stuff.
>>
>> Just an FYI..
>
>
> I would not think that a properly vented roof would ice dam.
>
Ok, you get to believe what you want.

I know that even a well insulated attic , well ventilated will still damn.

The problem is the sun and air, it will melt the snow, and that will
refreeze at night if cold enough (usually is). Then the rethaw will
start the process over.... And that is where the problem occurs.

When my house was built, they did not have the glue down membranes in
use regularly. Now I believe they do. I am due for a new roof, but it
will likely be a second layer.. so not really ideal for a membrane.

--
Jeff

On 1/29/2014 2:34 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
> On 1/29/2014 11:59 AM, woodchucker wrote:
>> For those of you not in snow country..
>> Some of you got dumped on..
>>
>> It pays to get the snow off the 1st 2 feet of the roof. I have a snow
>> rake and get about 4 feet off. But assuming most of you southerners
>> don't have it.
>>
>> Take a broom and try to get the 2 feet at the bottom of your roofs
>> cleared. It may save you lots of money in rotted wood, or your shop if
>> you have a basement shop.
>>
>> Years ago the ice damn caused a lot of water to run inside the house and
>> it travelled the joists and soaked a lot of wood and also rusted a lot
>> of stuff.
>>
> Your roof isn't constructed right. If it was, what you describe
> wouldn't happen.

Really. Ice damning is a normal occurrence. I do not have an A frame
house which is geared to shed the snow much more easily.

But most roofs unless pitched excessively will not shed the snow.

--
Jeff

"basilisk" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...


>What most southerners could really benefit from is rudimentary
>driving lessons, for instance yesterday there was a little over an inch
>on the roads, it's cold enough that it is a dry blowing snow over some
>pack ice on the roads. People drove in the ditches by the tens of
>thousands. I don't understand it.

Last Wednesday morning one of those drivers got stuck on the railroad tracks
just north of Gainesville... the AMTRAK train I was on hit the car shortly
after the driver abandoned it. Net result was a tow truck was needed to
pull the car out of the front of the train and we had a 2 hour 20 minute
delay... I saw thousands of abandoned and trapped cars... 3-5 lane wide
parking lots that went on for mile after mile! Glad we skirted most of the
problems... ran into some closed roads though as so many cars were abandoned
that they were blocked to further traffic. Crazy!

On 01/29/2014 03:23 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 1/29/2014 2:37 PM, basilisk wrote:
>
>> What most southerners could really benefit from is rudimentary
>> driving lessons,
>
> Apparently a good many northerners could benefit also?

No doubt, there could be some benefit all around the Country. Al has
zero requirements for drivers education other than a short written test
and a very limited road test.
If the parents aren't responsible enough to teach their kids, it is
basically here are the keys take off. It ends badly too often.
>
> https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/930iiph8d5m1D1NGmrUb1NMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink
>
>
I'm surprised really that the Northern states aren't worse than shown,
considering the amount of snow that they have and the large populations.

Alabama probably averages less than one day a year of snow and ice.

Texas looks high, but on the other hand, the Dallas metro area alone has
1.5 times the entire population of Alabama.

basilisk

On 2/5/2014 8:58 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:

> More of an observation than a opinion: Four wheel drive, anti-lock
> brakes, stability control, improvements in tires, etc. have given folks
> an unwarranted sense of confidence. Another case of technology leading
> to lost skills...

Tailgating is something you used to rarely see on the roads around here,
now it's epidemic.

When schools used to actually teach it, driver's ed classes had a simple
formula for estimating a safe distance between you and the car in front
of you: one car length for every ten mph of speed on a dry road, add 1
or 1 for other road conditions.

My youngest daughter was instead taught the ‘Two Second Rule’ when she
took DE.

Problem is ‘The Two Second Rule’ requires more math skills to calculate
... and schools no longer teach math skills. ;)

The other problem is that if you do keep a safe distance between you and
the car in front of you, some Asshat will immediately occupy it.

IOW, I'll go with the "stupider" theory... ;)

--
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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Thu, 06 Feb 2014 21:47:53 -0500, woodchucker <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 2/6/2014 8:45 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Thu, 6 Feb 2014 19:36:18 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 6 Feb 2014 08:37:52 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They have thirty plows (or something like that) for a city of 4.5M.
>>>>>> As far as not knowing how to use it, well, if you only have a need
>>>>>> for it once every three to ten years, it's hard to remember (and
>>>>>> keep the equipment up).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The roads were ice, quite quickly. Salt would have fixed everything
>>>>>> but THERE IS NO SALT AND NOTHING TO SPREAD IT WITH.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Then there's also the point that salt is only effective down to
>>>>> about 20F and is completely ineffective at 10F by itself. Unless
>>>>> they stockpile salt mixtures, they're screwed.
>>>>
>>>> That's rarely a problem in Atlanta. ;-)
>>>>
>>>> Salt still provides traction, even at -10F. In Vermont, they'd use
>>>> straight salt all Winter. Sand turns to rock with any moisture and
>>>> needs to be picked up in the Spring. Salt doesn't.
>>>
>>> Northeast regions usually use a salt mixture and not just salt.
>>
>> Usually but as you point out, salt doesn't work at low temperatures
>> (doesn't work at all a 0F). If there is any water in the sand the
>> salt will freeze solid in the salt sheds or on the trucks. Pure salt
>> is easier to use at these temperatures. No clean up in the Spring is
>> a bonus.
>>
>Salt mixture is not sand and salt.
>It's different types of salt.
>
>Lately they have been using Brine around the NY, NJ area.
Been using beet juice and salt mix up here - with significant
improvement in cold weather melt. That's sugar beet.

On Wed, 5 Feb 2014 09:58:16 -0500, "John Grossbohlin"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>"Mike Marlow" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>John Grossbohlin wrote:
>
>> Last Wednesday morning one of those drivers got stuck on the railroad
>> tracks just north of Gainesville... the AMTRAK train I was on hit the
>> car shortly after the driver abandoned it. Net result was a tow
>> truck was needed to pull the car out of the front of the train and we
>> had a 2 hour 20 minute delay... I saw thousands of abandoned and
>> trapped cars... 3-5 lane wide parking lots that went on for mile
>> after mile! Glad we skirted most of the problems... ran into some
>> closed roads though as so many cars were abandoned that they were
>> blocked to further traffic. Crazy!
>
>>I've seen similar types of congestion in the south where they just don't
>>have the equipment to deal with this kind of storm. To be honest, our
>>drivers up north are getting more and more stupid as the years go by. We
>>see way more foolish stuff that people up here should just simply be aware
>>of, but seemingly are not. I guess it just owes to the dumbing down of
>>people. We don't see the same kind of problems since we are in the snow
>>country and we at least do have the equipment to deal with it but we seem
>>to be growing a newer and newer crop of stupidity.
>
>From the Atlanta area news, as well as some "in the know" folks I was
>visiting, they have equipment but don't know how to use it. I found it
>rather funny that they weren't putting the sand/salt on the road "because
>there were too many cars on the roads." They also didn't react soon enough.

They have thirty plows (or something like that) for a city of 4.5M. As
far as not knowing how to use it, well, if you only have a need for it
once every three to ten years, it's hard to remember (and keep the
equipment up).

The roads were ice, quite quickly. Salt would have fixed everything
but THERE IS NO SALT AND NOTHING TO SPREAD IT WITH.

>More of an observation than a opinion: Four wheel drive, anti-lock brakes,
>stability control, improvements in tires, etc. have given folks an
>unwarranted sense of confidence. Another case of technology leading to lost
>skills...

Nonsense. People have lost all sorts of skills in all areas of life.
They're simply not being educated.

On Thu, 30 Jan 2014 11:18:40 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>> On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 13:59:18 -0500, woodchucker <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> For those of you not in snow country..
>>> Some of you got dumped on..
>>>
>>> It pays to get the snow off the 1st 2 feet of the roof. I have a snow
>>> rake and get about 4 feet off. But assuming most of you southerners
>>> don't have it.
>>>
>>> Take a broom and try to get the 2 feet at the bottom of your roofs
>>> cleared. It may save you lots of money in rotted wood, or your shop
>>> if you have a basement shop.
>>>
>>> Years ago the ice damn caused a lot of water to run inside the house
>>> and it travelled the joists and soaked a lot of wood and also rusted
>>> a lot of stuff.
>>>
>>> Just an FYI..
>>
>>
>> I would not think that a properly vented roof would ice dam.
>
>They sure do. All of the practices of creating venting, minimizing heat
>loss, etc. are valid, but they do not stop ice damns under the right
>conditions. That's why we use water and ice barriers in the north country.
>Mine extends probably 3 times higher up my roof than even the most cautious
>recommendations, and across my valleys as well.
>
>Metal roofs do go a lot further to combat this problem but you have to like
>that look. And... you have to think about all of that snow sliding off your
>roof - unintended consequences and all that stuff.

I had a near miss in Flagstaff, AZ one day when a couple of feet of
snow slid off a metal roof just as I stepped out of the way. I had a
blessed day!

On 1/30/2014 8:31 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 1/30/2014 7:13 AM, Jeff Thies wrote:
>
>> Southerners do not understand ice and snow.
>
> Bullshit! We even have a snowplow:
>
> https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/zz81vWs7zJBSOVlPJdMk0NMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink
>
>


Damn fine machine!

On Tue, 4 Feb 2014 23:34:55 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>John Grossbohlin wrote:
>> "basilisk" wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>
>>> What most southerners could really benefit from is rudimentary
>>> driving lessons, for instance yesterday there was a little over an
>>> inch on the roads, it's cold enough that it is a dry blowing snow
>>> over some pack ice on the roads. People drove in the ditches by the
>>> tens of thousands. I don't understand it.
>>
>> Last Wednesday morning one of those drivers got stuck on the railroad
>> tracks just north of Gainesville... the AMTRAK train I was on hit the
>> car shortly after the driver abandoned it. Net result was a tow
>> truck was needed to pull the car out of the front of the train and we
>> had a 2 hour 20 minute delay... I saw thousands of abandoned and
>> trapped cars... 3-5 lane wide parking lots that went on for mile
>> after mile! Glad we skirted most of the problems... ran into some
>> closed roads though as so many cars were abandoned that they were
>> blocked to further traffic. Crazy!
>
>I've seen similar types of congestion in the south where they just don't
>have the equipment to deal with this kind of storm. To be honest, our
>drivers up north are getting more and more stupid as the years go by. We
>see way more foolish stuff that people up here should just simply be aware
>of, but seemingly are not. I guess it just owes to the dumbing down of
>people. We don't see the same kind of problems since we are in the snow
>country and we at least do have the equipment to deal with it but we seem to
>be growing a newer and newer crop of stupidity.

+1

When I was in Detroit last month I saw exactly the same stupid
behavior that the Northerners are whining at the Southerners about.

On Wed, 5 Feb 2014 14:23:20 -0500, "John Grossbohlin"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>
>>They have thirty plows (or something like that) for a city of 4.5M. As
>>far as not knowing how to use it, well, if you only have a need for it
>>once every three to ten years, it's hard to remember (and keep the
>>equipment up).
>
>>The roads were ice, quite quickly. Salt would have fixed everything
>>but THERE IS NO SALT AND NOTHING TO SPREAD IT WITH.
>
>There was an immediate and significant difference in the condition of the
>roads when we crossed into Cobb County... they had been salted. Within the
>city some main roads that had been salted. I've experienced sand, sand/salt
>mix, salt, and brine applications over the years around here and there is a
>difference... I'd find it very hard to believe that salt was not what they
>spread... Some of the stores had applied a LOT of salt around their walks
>and entries. The Perimeter and other major highways were not touched and
>were parking lots...

I live on the SW side, where the snow/ice was heavier. There was
never any attempt to salt or sand anything (except perhaps a sand
wich, somewhere).

The Perimeter is a parking lot every afternoon.

>The Monday Morning Quarterbacking in the press was amusing. I got to laugh
>about the Atlanta storm and they got to laugh about NY politics. We all got
>to laugh! ;~)

I love ATL politics, too. Loons, all. I particularly loved it when
they tried blaming the local meteorologist.

On Thu, 6 Feb 2014 19:36:18 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>> On Thu, 6 Feb 2014 08:37:52 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> They have thirty plows (or something like that) for a city of 4.5M.
>>>> As far as not knowing how to use it, well, if you only have a need
>>>> for it once every three to ten years, it's hard to remember (and
>>>> keep the equipment up).
>>>>
>>>> The roads were ice, quite quickly. Salt would have fixed everything
>>>> but THERE IS NO SALT AND NOTHING TO SPREAD IT WITH.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Then there's also the point that salt is only effective down to
>>> about 20F and is completely ineffective at 10F by itself. Unless
>>> they stockpile salt mixtures, they're screwed.
>>
>> That's rarely a problem in Atlanta. ;-)
>>
>> Salt still provides traction, even at -10F. In Vermont, they'd use
>> straight salt all Winter. Sand turns to rock with any moisture and
>> needs to be picked up in the Spring. Salt doesn't.
>
>Northeast regions usually use a salt mixture and not just salt.

Usually but as you point out, salt doesn't work at low temperatures
(doesn't work at all a 0F). If there is any water in the sand the
salt will freeze solid in the salt sheds or on the trucks. Pure salt
is easier to use at these temperatures. No clean up in the Spring is
a bonus.

On Thu, 30 Jan 2014 01:22:52 -0500, FrozenNorth
>Very steep, story and a half post WW2 house, you couldn't pay me enough
>to climb on that thing, got it reshingled, they charge extra because of
>the steep pitch.

My parent's house was the exact opposite. It was a farmhouse built
circa 1825 and had an extremely low pitch. To prevent the snow and ice
buildup we ran heating wires zigzagging about two feet up all along
the back of the house.

On Thu, 06 Feb 2014 21:47:53 -0500, woodchucker <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 2/6/2014 8:45 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Thu, 6 Feb 2014 19:36:18 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 6 Feb 2014 08:37:52 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They have thirty plows (or something like that) for a city of 4.5M.
>>>>>> As far as not knowing how to use it, well, if you only have a need
>>>>>> for it once every three to ten years, it's hard to remember (and
>>>>>> keep the equipment up).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The roads were ice, quite quickly. Salt would have fixed everything
>>>>>> but THERE IS NO SALT AND NOTHING TO SPREAD IT WITH.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Then there's also the point that salt is only effective down to
>>>>> about 20F and is completely ineffective at 10F by itself. Unless
>>>>> they stockpile salt mixtures, they're screwed.
>>>>
>>>> That's rarely a problem in Atlanta. ;-)
>>>>
>>>> Salt still provides traction, even at -10F. In Vermont, they'd use
>>>> straight salt all Winter. Sand turns to rock with any moisture and
>>>> needs to be picked up in the Spring. Salt doesn't.
>>>
>>> Northeast regions usually use a salt mixture and not just salt.
>>
>> Usually but as you point out, salt doesn't work at low temperatures
>> (doesn't work at all a 0F). If there is any water in the sand the
>> salt will freeze solid in the salt sheds or on the trucks. Pure salt
>> is easier to use at these temperatures. No clean up in the Spring is
>> a bonus.
>>
>Salt mixture is not sand and salt.
>It's different types of salt.

They talked about using calcium but it's about 4x the cost. AFAIK,
never happened.

>Lately they have been using Brine around the NY, NJ area.

I've heard that but brine is just water and salt. Not sure what the
advantage of that when it's too cold for salt to work at all.

On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 12:54:45 -0700, Just Wondering
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On 1/29/2014 12:52 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>> On 1/29/2014 2:34 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
>>> On 1/29/2014 11:59 AM, woodchucker wrote:
>>>> For those of you not in snow country..
>>>> Some of you got dumped on..
>>>>
>>>> It pays to get the snow off the 1st 2 feet of the roof. I have a snow
>>>> rake and get about 4 feet off. But assuming most of you southerners
>>>> don't have it.
>>>>
>>>> Take a broom and try to get the 2 feet at the bottom of your roofs
>>>> cleared. It may save you lots of money in rotted wood, or your shop if
>>>> you have a basement shop.
>>>>
>>>> Years ago the ice damn caused a lot of water to run inside the house and
>>>> it travelled the joists and soaked a lot of wood and also rusted a lot
>>>> of stuff.
>>>>
>>> Your roof isn't constructed right. If it was, what you describe
>>> wouldn't happen.
>>
>> Really. Ice damning is a normal occurrence.
>
>So what? If a roof is constructed properly, ice damming will not cause
>water to do what you describe. There are millions of properly
>constructed roofs to prove it.

And millions that are not as water tight, so to err on the side of
caution is not a bad idea. I have found it really difficult to
determine whether it is "constructed right" by looking from the
ground.

Mark

On 2/6/2014 2:47 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 2/6/2014 1:21 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>
>> That was you????
>> Get out of the left lane at 70.....!!!!!
>>
>> Seriously in NJ 70 in the left is slow. Normal left lane speed is 80.
>> When a guy sits in the left lane at 70, I just wish I had a missle
>> launcher.
>>
>> On the back roads though, I pretty much travel like a farmer most of the
>> time... I slow down and smell the roses... but on the highway get the F
>> out of my way at 70
>>
>
> I've driven thousands of miles in Jersey at speeds much higher than 70.
> Going to work though, I see radar a couple of times a week in the 10
> mile stretch to the state line. Once past the last trap spot, I
> increase to 75 to the state line, then there is a valley with good
> visibility and never a cop. Depending on traffic, I run 85 to 95 for
> about a mile. According to my GPS, my top is 123. Then back to 75.
Ok, ok...
Glad to hear you are not a left lane dick.

--
Jeff

On 1/30/2014 11:25 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> woodchucker wrote:
>
>>>
>> Ok, you get to believe what you want.
>>
>> I know that even a well insulated attic , well ventilated will still
>> damn.
>> The problem is the sun and air, it will melt the snow, and that will
>> refreeze at night if cold enough (usually is). Then the rethaw will
>> start the process over.... And that is where the problem occurs.
>>
>> When my house was built, they did not have the glue down membranes in
>> use regularly. Now I believe they do. I am due for a new roof, but it
>> will likely be a second layer.. so not really ideal for a membrane.
>
> Maybe, maybe not Jeff. You could strip back from the edge, down to the
> deck. I would go at least twice what they recommend because I believe in
> overkill. Went further on my own roof when I re-reoofed. But... lay down
> the membrane and shingle over it - even if you re-use the old shingles.
> Then - proceed as if you were simply laying down a second layer over the old
> first layer. Though... I'm no believer in going over an existing roof. I'm
> kinda shocked that you are considering such a thing. Just does not seem
> like the Jeff I see here. Oh hell - go for it - bring in a dumpster, pay
> for the cheap labor and strip it right down to the deck like you should. It
> will look better and lay in better. You can do it Jeff...
>

Geez I'm speechless.

When I'm ready we'll see what the price difference is.
I like the metal roof look, would love to see how much that costs. But
when I had a house in VT I remember the rain, the sound was incredible,
but that was before they started insulating the roofs on the outside.

--
Jeff

On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 15:28:32 -0600, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 1/29/2014 2:37 PM, basilisk wrote:
>...
>
>> I have never seen an ice dam form in AL. usually or snow events last for
>> 10 hours or so and melt completely in a day or so.
>>
>> If we have a mini ice age, I'll heed your warning.
>>
>> What most southerners could really benefit from is rudimentary
>> driving lessons, for instance yesterday there was a little over an inch
>> on the roads, it's cold enough that it is a dry blowing snow over some
>> pack ice on the roads. People drove in the ditches by the tens of
>> thousands. I don't understand it.
>>
>> I don't claim any great driving skill but I managed to drive 150 plus
>> miles in the same mess without any problems. (in a two wheel drive pickup)
>
>The primary problem is they simply won't slow down sufficiently enough
>to even have a half-chance when they do lose it when either

>a) somebody in front loses it,
>b) they try to pass on icy lane and lose it,
>c) they try to stop themselves

I found exactly the opposite, yesterday. People were so scared they
wouldn't move. They drove too *slow* (as in stopped) and the snow
under them turned to ice. There wasn't a chance to blow lanes clear
of pack the snow before it turned to ice. People stopped at the
bottom of hills. They're probably still there.

The other big problem is that there are no Winter tires here (myself
included) and many are running slicks.

Then there are the truly stupid, like the guy that did a 3-point
U-turn in front of me, into a driveway that was declined about 5' in
40'. Of course he was driving a 2WD pickup with no weight in the
back. I was also driving a pickup (no weight) but I have good tires
and was smart enough to pick the next driveway (flat). Some bozo
couldn't even manage that driveway and drove over the person's lawn to
get out.

>as the primary instigators.
>
>I'm always simply amazed at how many UPS drivers seem no better,
>nationwide. They must be in the OTR race for rollovers and landing in
>medians/ditches by an order of magnitude or more compared the rest of
>the national carrier brands...

Their trucks don't looks especially good for snow; top and front
heavy, with RWD.

>We had just a couple of inches Monday night that left a fairly slick
>surface on the blacktop bypass around town Tuesday. I'd run to town for
>the mail after shoveling the walks off and doing chores and was about
>plowed over by an oversize load guy while in the turn lane to make the
>turn on our road waiting for oncoming. I was getting ready to head on
>straight and hit the ditch behind the other guy when he did finally
>manage to straighten it out but wasn't but a few lengths behind me when
>he did...again, nothing but idiocy of trying to drive 50 in 30 mph
>conditions. There were enough tracks that even his load rig started
>swinging from one to another and when he tried to shut 'er down he did
>it too quickly...very easy to see what was happening; not much of
>anywhere to go w/ the other one coming over the hill from the south.

I tell people that the "shoulder is your friend" but here there are
many places there is no shoulder, only a 20' drop to the woods below.

On 2/6/2014 8:33 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>
>>
>> The other problem is that if you do keep a safe distance between you
>> and the car in front of you, some Asshat will immediately occupy it.
>>
>
> A particular piss me right off thing! The other thing that pisses me right
> off is when you're on the interstate and traveling in the left lane. In the
> right lane is a truck that you are overtaking at a pretty good rate. Behind
> him is a car that is going somewhere between your speed and the speed of the
> truck. As you are just getting to the truck, the car pulls in front of you
> to pass the truck at his current rate of speed - because he simply can't
> kick off his cruise control until you pass. Never fails - it happens just
> as you are getting right up on the two of them. So now you're right on his
> bumper and he's continuing at his previous speed.
>

You must have a listening device listening to me as I curse those
bastards out.... Just took a trip up to drop some stuff off at my sons
apartment and hit that repeatedly.

--
Jeff

On 1/29/2014 2:34 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
> On 1/29/2014 11:59 AM, woodchucker wrote:
>> For those of you not in snow country..
>> Some of you got dumped on..
>>
>> It pays to get the snow off the 1st 2 feet of the roof. I have a snow
>> rake and get about 4 feet off. But assuming most of you southerners
>> don't have it.
>>
>> Take a broom and try to get the 2 feet at the bottom of your roofs
>> cleared. It may save you lots of money in rotted wood, or your shop if
>> you have a basement shop.
>>
>> Years ago the ice damn caused a lot of water to run inside the house and
>> it travelled the joists and soaked a lot of wood and also rusted a lot
>> of stuff.
>>
> Your roof isn't constructed right. If it was, what you describe
> wouldn't happen.

Yep, I have never worried about it in Canada is the 17 years I have been
in this house, never a problem. Those in the deep south do not need to
worry, it will all be melted in a couple days anyway.

--
Froz...


The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.

On 1/29/2014 2:37 PM, basilisk wrote:
...

> I have never seen an ice dam form in AL. usually or snow events last for
> 10 hours or so and melt completely in a day or so.
>
> If we have a mini ice age, I'll heed your warning.
>
> What most southerners could really benefit from is rudimentary
> driving lessons, for instance yesterday there was a little over an inch
> on the roads, it's cold enough that it is a dry blowing snow over some
> pack ice on the roads. People drove in the ditches by the tens of
> thousands. I don't understand it.
>
> I don't claim any great driving skill but I managed to drive 150 plus
> miles in the same mess without any problems. (in a two wheel drive pickup)

The primary problem is they simply won't slow down sufficiently enough
to even have a half-chance when they do lose it when either

a) somebody in front loses it,
b) they try to pass on icy lane and lose it,
c) they try to stop themselves

as the primary instigators.

I'm always simply amazed at how many UPS drivers seem no better,
nationwide. They must be in the OTR race for rollovers and landing in
medians/ditches by an order of magnitude or more compared the rest of
the national carrier brands...

We had just a couple of inches Monday night that left a fairly slick
surface on the blacktop bypass around town Tuesday. I'd run to town for
the mail after shoveling the walks off and doing chores and was about
plowed over by an oversize load guy while in the turn lane to make the
turn on our road waiting for oncoming. I was getting ready to head on
straight and hit the ditch behind the other guy when he did finally
manage to straighten it out but wasn't but a few lengths behind me when
he did...again, nothing but idiocy of trying to drive 50 in 30 mph
conditions. There were enough tracks that even his load rig started
swinging from one to another and when he tried to shut 'er down he did
it too quickly...very easy to see what was happening; not much of
anywhere to go w/ the other one coming over the hill from the south.

--

On 1/29/2014 3:59 PM, [email protected] wrote:
...

> I tell people that the "shoulder is your friend" but here there are
> many places there is no shoulder, only a 20' drop to the woods below.

That's the problem w/ large portions east of the Mississippi...we're
flat (a hill means can't see most all of a passenger car coming, a "big"
hill means the combine instead :) ). There's a nice bar ditch along
that stretch of highway but narrow shoulders; fortunately it is 3-lane
paved and the other guy was under control enough give me enough
clearance to get across the turn before he got there---he could also see
what was happening and waved me across when he saw me hesitate for the
frac I wasn't sure which to try...

The really irritating part is the out-of-control guy was nearly a full
half-mile away when I got on in front of him just leaving the light at
the intersection where the two highways cross. I turned my signal
blinker on while he still had most of that left to modulate with
probably 3/8-ths of a mile to go to let him know to time his arrival
appropriately. He _still_ hammered it and was over the posted dry-
condition 45 mph limit by the time he was nearing I'm sure...not all
"pros" are (or at least in any way other than the pay).

--

On 1/29/2014 11:38 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 14:51:27 -0500, FrozenNorth
>> Yep, I have never worried about it in Canada is the 17 years I have been
>> in this house, never a problem. Those in the deep south do not need to
>> worry, it will all be melted in a couple days anyway.
>
> What kind of roof do you have that you don't have to worry about ice
> dams?
>
Very steep, story and a half post WW2 house, you couldn't pay me enough
to climb on that thing, got it reshingled, they charge extra because of
the steep pitch.

--
Froz...


The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.

On 1/29/2014 1:59 PM, woodchucker wrote:
> For those of you not in snow country..
> Some of you got dumped on..
>
> It pays to get the snow off the 1st 2 feet of the roof. I have a snow
> rake and get about 4 feet off. But assuming most of you southerners
> don't have it.
>
> Take a broom and try to get the 2 feet at the bottom of your roofs
> cleared. It may save you lots of money in rotted wood, or your shop if
> you have a basement shop.
>
> Years ago the ice damn caused a lot of water to run inside the house and
> it travelled the joists and soaked a lot of wood and also rusted a lot
> of stuff.


A good idea. I'm one of the ones in a city ill prepared for two inches
of snow.

Here they don't even require tar paper, let alone ice damn membrane. Not
sure how well the membrane works, but I had it put in.

I've got a truck across the street that slid backwards and wedged itself
in between a phone pole and a cement wall. Almost no damage now, but I
imagine that won't be the case when it is pulled out!

Southerners do not understand ice and snow. I hear a car at this very
moment gunning the engine trying to move.

Jeff

>
> Just an FYI..
>

Swingman wrote:
> On 1/30/2014 7:13 AM, Jeff Thies wrote:
>
>> Southerners do not understand ice and snow.
>
> Bullshit! We even have a snowplow:
>
> https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/zz81vWs7zJBSOVlPJdMk0NMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink

Leave it to a Texan to put tire chains on the rear wheels of a front wheel
drive car...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

[email protected] wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 13:59:18 -0500, woodchucker <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> For those of you not in snow country..
>> Some of you got dumped on..
>>
>> It pays to get the snow off the 1st 2 feet of the roof. I have a snow
>> rake and get about 4 feet off. But assuming most of you southerners
>> don't have it.
>>
>> Take a broom and try to get the 2 feet at the bottom of your roofs
>> cleared. It may save you lots of money in rotted wood, or your shop
>> if you have a basement shop.
>>
>> Years ago the ice damn caused a lot of water to run inside the house
>> and it travelled the joists and soaked a lot of wood and also rusted
>> a lot of stuff.
>>
>> Just an FYI..
>
>
> I would not think that a properly vented roof would ice dam.

They sure do. All of the practices of creating venting, minimizing heat
loss, etc. are valid, but they do not stop ice damns under the right
conditions. That's why we use water and ice barriers in the north country.
Mine extends probably 3 times higher up my roof than even the most cautious
recommendations, and across my valleys as well.

Metal roofs do go a lot further to combat this problem but you have to like
that look. And... you have to think about all of that snow sliding off your
roof - unintended consequences and all that stuff.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

woodchucker wrote:

>>
> Ok, you get to believe what you want.
>
> I know that even a well insulated attic , well ventilated will still
> damn.
> The problem is the sun and air, it will melt the snow, and that will
> refreeze at night if cold enough (usually is). Then the rethaw will
> start the process over.... And that is where the problem occurs.
>
> When my house was built, they did not have the glue down membranes in
> use regularly. Now I believe they do. I am due for a new roof, but it
> will likely be a second layer.. so not really ideal for a membrane.

Maybe, maybe not Jeff. You could strip back from the edge, down to the
deck. I would go at least twice what they recommend because I believe in
overkill. Went further on my own roof when I re-reoofed. But... lay down
the membrane and shingle over it - even if you re-use the old shingles.
Then - proceed as if you were simply laying down a second layer over the old
first layer. Though... I'm no believer in going over an existing roof. I'm
kinda shocked that you are considering such a thing. Just does not seem
like the Jeff I see here. Oh hell - go for it - bring in a dumpster, pay
for the cheap labor and strip it right down to the deck like you should. It
will look better and lay in better. You can do it Jeff...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

In article <[email protected]>
woodchucker <[email protected]> writes:
>On 1/30/2014 10:01 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>> I would not think that a properly vented roof would ice dam.
>>
>Ok, you get to believe what you want.
>
>I know that even a well insulated attic , well ventilated will still damn.
>
>The problem is the sun and air, it will melt the snow, and that will
>refreeze at night if cold enough (usually is). Then the rethaw will
>start the process over.... And that is where the problem occurs.

The problem that bit me several years ago was not caused by the
roof. It was caused by the gutters.

When there is snow followed by subfreezing temps, the sun melts the
snow, which drains into the gutters, where it freezes immediately.

Usually this isn't too much of a problem. But a few years back,
things combined just wrong. We'd had enough of that cycle to
completely fill the gutters. Then we got more snow, then the snow
melted from all but the eves. Then we got freezing rain. The
gutters kept the eves cold enough to freeze the saturated snow,
then the rain backed up behind that.

I keep saying that I'll put emergency heating cables in the gutters.
Maybe next year.

--
Drew Lawson | And to those who lack the courage
| And say it's dangerous to try
| Well they just don't know
| That love eternal will not be denied

[email protected] wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Jan 2014 11:00:48 -0500, woodchucker <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>

>>>
>> Ok, you get to believe what you want.
>>
>> I know that even a well insulated attic , well ventilated will still
>> damn.
>>
>> The problem is the sun and air, it will melt the snow, and that will
>> refreeze at night if cold enough (usually is). Then the rethaw will
>> start the process over.... And that is where the problem occurs.
>>
>> When my house was built, they did not have the glue down membranes in
>> use regularly. Now I believe they do. I am due for a new roof, but it
>> will likely be a second layer.. so not really ideal for a membrane.
>
> I was referring to how the attic is ventilated above the soffit.

Perhaps you missed Jeff's opening comment about a well ventilated attic?
Ventilation is certainly key to minimizing ice build up but it does not
ensure no ice build up. Nor does more insulation.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

[email protected] wrote:

>
> I had a near miss in Flagstaff, AZ one day when a couple of feet of
> snow slid off a metal roof just as I stepped out of the way. I had a
> blessed day!

No Kidding Man! That's one of the bigger issues with metal. Those cute
little snow stops are about useless - ask anyone who has shared your
experience. Plus - if you do have to get up on that roof (say to... oh,...
maybe clean a chimney...), wel, you can imagine...

No roof offers a total and complete worry free solution. Each one has it
drawbacks and it's positives. I submitt that since the world of roofing is
so inconclusive, we just do away with roofs completely!...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Swingman wrote:

>
> Yep, go figure. Since southerners obviously don't know understand ice
> and snow, one of our 'winter Texans'/"snowbirds" from the NE was
> tasked with that job. You know, one of those who collect unemployment
> in NJ in the winter, while coming down here to work until it warms up
> enough to go back. Unfortunately, he skidded off the road when it
> rained here a couple of winters back and is currently collecting both
> disability and unemployment.

Wait a minute - you guys don't really have snowbirds, do you? I thought
that everyone who migrated down to Texas simply stayed there.

As for the displaced NJ employee - well hell - of course! These guys know
how to work those systems. Disability is listed as a professional skill on
their resumes.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

woodchucker wrote:

Jeff - ping me.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Leon wrote:
> On 1/30/2014 10:18 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 13:59:18 -0500, woodchucker <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> For those of you not in snow country..
>>>> Some of you got dumped on..
>>>>
>>>> It pays to get the snow off the 1st 2 feet of the roof. I have a
>>>> snow rake and get about 4 feet off. But assuming most of you
>>>> southerners don't have it.
>>>>
>>>> Take a broom and try to get the 2 feet at the bottom of your roofs
>>>> cleared. It may save you lots of money in rotted wood, or your shop
>>>> if you have a basement shop.
>>>>
>>>> Years ago the ice damn caused a lot of water to run inside the
>>>> house and it travelled the joists and soaked a lot of wood and
>>>> also rusted a lot of stuff.
>>>>
>>>> Just an FYI..
>>>
>>>
>>> I would not think that a properly vented roof would ice dam.
>>
>> They sure do. All of the practices of creating venting, minimizing
>> heat loss, etc. are valid, but they do not stop ice damns under the
>> right conditions. That's why we use water and ice barriers in the
>> north country. Mine extends probably 3 times higher up my roof than
>> even the most cautious recommendations, and across my valleys as
>> well. Metal roofs do go a lot further to combat this problem but you have
>> to like that look. And... you have to think about all of that snow
>> sliding off your roof - unintended consequences and all that stuff.
>>
>
> That might all depend on the type metal roof that you have. My last
> house had a metal, aluminum, cedar shake roof. So snow may not slide
> off easily at all.

Metal roofs up here are defined as sheet metal roofs. No cedar shakes, or
anything else. I guess all things are relative but I thought that's what
everybody defined a metal roof to be.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Swingman wrote:
> On 1/30/2014 10:42 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Swingman wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Yep, go figure. Since southerners obviously don't know understand
>>> ice and snow, one of our 'winter Texans'/"snowbirds" from the NE was
>>> tasked with that job. You know, one of those who collect
>>> unemployment in NJ in the winter, while coming down here to work
>>> until it warms up enough to go back. Unfortunately, he skidded off
>>> the road when it rained here a couple of winters back and is
>>> currently collecting both disability and unemployment.
>>
>> Wait a minute - you guys don't really have snowbirds, do you? I
>> thought that everyone who migrated down to Texas simply stayed there.
>
> Hopefully not. You know what Ol' Mammy sez: mixing a dog turd in with
> your ice cream doesn't make for a new and improved dog turd. ;)
>
>> As for the displaced NJ employee - well hell - of course! These
>> guys know how to work those systems. Disability is listed as a
>> professional skill on their resumes.
>
> For a hangnail?!

Damned Texans. They just don't understand Persistent Hangnail Syndrome.
Quite an affliction. Second only to ADHD and OMIDFW Syndrome (Oh My- I
Don't Feel Well). Scoff if you will, but this critical syndrome will
adversely affect how well one can put their hands in their pockets and
remove them without disabling painful effects. Can affect on-the-job
performance (State Highway Workers), as well as the more emotional impact on
one's personal life (standing cool at the bar). Freakin' Rednecks - just
don't understand these things...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

woodchucker wrote:
> On 1/30/2014 12:52 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Leon wrote:
>>> On 1/30/2014 10:18 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 13:59:18 -0500, woodchucker
>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> For those of you not in snow country..
>>>>>> Some of you got dumped on..
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It pays to get the snow off the 1st 2 feet of the roof. I have a
>>>>>> snow rake and get about 4 feet off. But assuming most of you
>>>>>> southerners don't have it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Take a broom and try to get the 2 feet at the bottom of your
>>>>>> roofs cleared. It may save you lots of money in rotted wood, or
>>>>>> your shop if you have a basement shop.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Years ago the ice damn caused a lot of water to run inside the
>>>>>> house and it travelled the joists and soaked a lot of wood and
>>>>>> also rusted a lot of stuff.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just an FYI..
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I would not think that a properly vented roof would ice dam.
>>>>
>>>> They sure do. All of the practices of creating venting, minimizing
>>>> heat loss, etc. are valid, but they do not stop ice damns under the
>>>> right conditions. That's why we use water and ice barriers in the
>>>> north country. Mine extends probably 3 times higher up my roof than
>>>> even the most cautious recommendations, and across my valleys as
>>>> well. Metal roofs do go a lot further to combat this problem but
>>>> you have to like that look. And... you have to think about all of
>>>> that snow sliding off your roof - unintended consequences and all
>>>> that stuff.
>>>
>>> That might all depend on the type metal roof that you have. My last
>>> house had a metal, aluminum, cedar shake roof. So snow may not
>>> slide off easily at all.
>>
>> Metal roofs up here are defined as sheet metal roofs. No cedar
>> shakes, or anything else. I guess all things are relative but I
>> thought that's what everybody defined a metal roof to be.
>>
> You're talking standing seam metal roof, or corrugated Mike?

Around here now - mostly standing seam.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

John Grossbohlin wrote:
> "basilisk" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>> What most southerners could really benefit from is rudimentary
>> driving lessons, for instance yesterday there was a little over an
>> inch on the roads, it's cold enough that it is a dry blowing snow
>> over some pack ice on the roads. People drove in the ditches by the
>> tens of thousands. I don't understand it.
>
> Last Wednesday morning one of those drivers got stuck on the railroad
> tracks just north of Gainesville... the AMTRAK train I was on hit the
> car shortly after the driver abandoned it. Net result was a tow
> truck was needed to pull the car out of the front of the train and we
> had a 2 hour 20 minute delay... I saw thousands of abandoned and
> trapped cars... 3-5 lane wide parking lots that went on for mile
> after mile! Glad we skirted most of the problems... ran into some
> closed roads though as so many cars were abandoned that they were
> blocked to further traffic. Crazy!

I've seen similar types of congestion in the south where they just don't
have the equipment to deal with this kind of storm. To be honest, our
drivers up north are getting more and more stupid as the years go by. We
see way more foolish stuff that people up here should just simply be aware
of, but seemingly are not. I guess it just owes to the dumbing down of
people. We don't see the same kind of problems since we are in the snow
country and we at least do have the equipment to deal with it but we seem to
be growing a newer and newer crop of stupidity.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Swingman wrote:

>
> The other problem is that if you do keep a safe distance between you
> and the car in front of you, some Asshat will immediately occupy it.
>

A particular piss me right off thing! The other thing that pisses me right
off is when you're on the interstate and traveling in the left lane. In the
right lane is a truck that you are overtaking at a pretty good rate. Behind
him is a car that is going somewhere between your speed and the speed of the
truck. As you are just getting to the truck, the car pulls in front of you
to pass the truck at his current rate of speed - because he simply can't
kick off his cruise control until you pass. Never fails - it happens just
as you are getting right up on the two of them. So now you're right on his
bumper and he's continuing at his previous speed.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

[email protected] wrote:

>
> They have thirty plows (or something like that) for a city of 4.5M. As
> far as not knowing how to use it, well, if you only have a need for it
> once every three to ten years, it's hard to remember (and keep the
> equipment up).
>
> The roads were ice, quite quickly. Salt would have fixed everything
> but THERE IS NO SALT AND NOTHING TO SPREAD IT WITH.
>

Then there's also the point that salt is only effective down to about 20F
and is completely ineffective at 10F by itself. Unless they stockpile salt
mixtures, they're screwed.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Leon wrote:

>
> Or as you attempt to pass using cruise control, he speeds up.

Isn't that one just a jewel? You have to believe that you caught them
asleep at the wheel, and once they realized they were getting passed, they
react.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

woodchucker wrote:

>
> Seriously in NJ 70 in the left is slow. Normal left lane speed is 80.
> When a guy sits in the left lane at 70, I just wish I had a missle
> launcher.
> On the back roads though, I pretty much travel like a farmer most of
> the time... I slow down and smell the roses... but on the highway get
> the F out of my way at 70

Preach it brother! Same thing in NY.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

[email protected] wrote:
> On Thu, 6 Feb 2014 08:37:52 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> They have thirty plows (or something like that) for a city of 4.5M.
>>> As far as not knowing how to use it, well, if you only have a need
>>> for it once every three to ten years, it's hard to remember (and
>>> keep the equipment up).
>>>
>>> The roads were ice, quite quickly. Salt would have fixed everything
>>> but THERE IS NO SALT AND NOTHING TO SPREAD IT WITH.
>>>
>>
>> Then there's also the point that salt is only effective down to
>> about 20F and is completely ineffective at 10F by itself. Unless
>> they stockpile salt mixtures, they're screwed.
>
> That's rarely a problem in Atlanta. ;-)
>
> Salt still provides traction, even at -10F. In Vermont, they'd use
> straight salt all Winter. Sand turns to rock with any moisture and
> needs to be picked up in the Spring. Salt doesn't.

Northeast regions usually use a salt mixture and not just salt.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

[email protected] wrote:

>
> Usually but as you point out, salt doesn't work at low temperatures
> (doesn't work at all a 0F). If there is any water in the sand the
> salt will freeze solid in the salt sheds or on the trucks. Pure salt
> is easier to use at these temperatures. No clean up in the Spring is
> a bonus.

Around here - in the rural areas, it's still mostly a mix of sand and salt
although I know they do use calcium chloride also, but I don't know how
much. On the interstates, they're using something else - it's green, but I
don't know what it is. You don't ever see a truck with pure salt in the box
anymore around here. Of course heated boxes go a long way to keeping things
from freezing up in the box. On the interstates - no sand in the mix, ,just
salt and whatever else. In the suburban areas - kind of the same. In the
rural areas - sand and salt and (probably) calcium chloride.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Richard wrote:

>
> WHO THE HELL SETS CRUISE CONTROL IN RAIN OR SNOW???
>
> Fools

Well it does depend on how hard it is raining or how much snow there is. If
stability is a concern under the conditions, I don't use cruise, for the
obvious reasons. In the case of the pet peeve you replied to though, the
thread kinda wandered from its origins to a more simple pet peeve statement.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 1/29/2014 2:37 PM, basilisk wrote:

> What most southerners could really benefit from is rudimentary
> driving lessons,

Apparently a good many northerners could benefit also?

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/930iiph8d5m1D1NGmrUb1NMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink

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On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 15:35:09 -0600, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 1/29/2014 3:05 PM, Markem wrote:
>> And millions that are not as water tight, so to err on the side of
>> caution is not a bad idea. I have found it really difficult to
>> determine whether it is "constructed right" by looking from the
>> ground.
>
>
>Properly installed, "water and ice shield", you should be able to see it
>under the drip edge, where it has been rolled over the fascia ... you
>just have to get close enough to see if it's there.
>
>It it is over the drip edge, the installation is suspect.
>
>Amazingly enough, we do spec "water and ice shield" in our roofing
>contracts down here in Texas ... at least those interested in doing
>things right do.

But if you now have a nice accumulation of snow and do not "know" go
out and do the broom thing, get a bit of exercise too.

If it was my house getting a new roof, I would go for over kill and do
the whole roof with "water and ice shield". But the over the eaves and
valleys is best building practice for a roof.

My roof does not have any of the shielding, it has had over a foot of
snow maybe three times in the 6 years we have been here. It does not
leak, it is 3/12 pitch.

Mark

On Thu, 30 Jan 2014 11:00:48 -0500, woodchucker <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 1/30/2014 10:01 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 13:59:18 -0500, woodchucker <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> For those of you not in snow country..
>>> Some of you got dumped on..
>>>
>>> It pays to get the snow off the 1st 2 feet of the roof. I have a snow
>>> rake and get about 4 feet off. But assuming most of you southerners
>>> don't have it.
>>>
>>> Take a broom and try to get the 2 feet at the bottom of your roofs
>>> cleared. It may save you lots of money in rotted wood, or your shop if
>>> you have a basement shop.
>>>
>>> Years ago the ice damn caused a lot of water to run inside the house and
>>> it travelled the joists and soaked a lot of wood and also rusted a lot
>>> of stuff.
>>>
>>> Just an FYI..
>>
>>
>> I would not think that a properly vented roof would ice dam.
>>
>Ok, you get to believe what you want.
>
>I know that even a well insulated attic , well ventilated will still damn.
>
>The problem is the sun and air, it will melt the snow, and that will
>refreeze at night if cold enough (usually is). Then the rethaw will
>start the process over.... And that is where the problem occurs.
>
>When my house was built, they did not have the glue down membranes in
>use regularly. Now I believe they do. I am due for a new roof, but it
>will likely be a second layer.. so not really ideal for a membrane.

I was referring to how the attic is ventilated above the soffit.

On Fri, 7 Feb 2014 07:59:49 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>
>>
>> Usually but as you point out, salt doesn't work at low temperatures
>> (doesn't work at all a 0F). If there is any water in the sand the
>> salt will freeze solid in the salt sheds or on the trucks. Pure salt
>> is easier to use at these temperatures. No clean up in the Spring is
>> a bonus.
>
>Around here - in the rural areas, it's still mostly a mix of sand and salt
>although I know they do use calcium chloride also, but I don't know how
>much. On the interstates, they're using something else - it's green, but I
>don't know what it is. You don't ever see a truck with pure salt in the box
>anymore around here. Of course heated boxes go a long way to keeping things
>from freezing up in the box. On the interstates - no sand in the mix, ,just
>salt and whatever else. In the suburban areas - kind of the same. In the
>rural areas - sand and salt and (probably) calcium chloride.
Urea is also used quite a bit in some areas. However only Calcium
Chloride has a colder working range than NaCl - among the common
"salts"

Sodium Acetate is used on runways because it is non-corrosive and
works to zero F.. Sodium Formate is similar.

On 1/30/2014 10:42 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>
>>
>> Yep, go figure. Since southerners obviously don't know understand ice
>> and snow, one of our 'winter Texans'/"snowbirds" from the NE was
>> tasked with that job. You know, one of those who collect unemployment
>> in NJ in the winter, while coming down here to work until it warms up
>> enough to go back. Unfortunately, he skidded off the road when it
>> rained here a couple of winters back and is currently collecting both
>> disability and unemployment.
>
> Wait a minute - you guys don't really have snowbirds, do you? I thought
> that everyone who migrated down to Texas simply stayed there.

Hopefully not. You know what Ol' Mammy sez: mixing a dog turd in with
your ice cream doesn't make for a new and improved dog turd. ;)

> As for the displaced NJ employee - well hell - of course! These guys know
> how to work those systems. Disability is listed as a professional skill on
> their resumes.

For a hangnail?!

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On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 13:59:18 -0500, woodchucker <[email protected]>
wrote:

>For those of you not in snow country..
>Some of you got dumped on..
>
>It pays to get the snow off the 1st 2 feet of the roof. I have a snow
>rake and get about 4 feet off. But assuming most of you southerners
>don't have it.
>
>Take a broom and try to get the 2 feet at the bottom of your roofs
>cleared. It may save you lots of money in rotted wood, or your shop if
>you have a basement shop.
>
>Years ago the ice damn caused a lot of water to run inside the house and
>it travelled the joists and soaked a lot of wood and also rusted a lot
>of stuff.
>
>Just an FYI..


I would not think that a properly vented roof would ice dam.

wrote in message news:[email protected]...


>They have thirty plows (or something like that) for a city of 4.5M. As
>far as not knowing how to use it, well, if you only have a need for it
>once every three to ten years, it's hard to remember (and keep the
>equipment up).

>The roads were ice, quite quickly. Salt would have fixed everything
>but THERE IS NO SALT AND NOTHING TO SPREAD IT WITH.

There was an immediate and significant difference in the condition of the
roads when we crossed into Cobb County... they had been salted. Within the
city some main roads that had been salted. I've experienced sand, sand/salt
mix, salt, and brine applications over the years around here and there is a
difference... I'd find it very hard to believe that salt was not what they
spread... Some of the stores had applied a LOT of salt around their walks
and entries. The Perimeter and other major highways were not touched and
were parking lots...

The Monday Morning Quarterbacking in the press was amusing. I got to laugh
about the Atlanta storm and they got to laugh about NY politics. We all got
to laugh! ;~)

On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 16:32:46 -0600, basilisk <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 01/29/2014 03:59 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 15:28:32 -0600, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/29/2014 2:37 PM, basilisk wrote:
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> I have never seen an ice dam form in AL. usually or snow events last for
>>>> 10 hours or so and melt completely in a day or so.
>>>>
>>>> If we have a mini ice age, I'll heed your warning.
>>>>
>>>> What most southerners could really benefit from is rudimentary
>>>> driving lessons, for instance yesterday there was a little over an inch
>>>> on the roads, it's cold enough that it is a dry blowing snow over some
>>>> pack ice on the roads. People drove in the ditches by the tens of
>>>> thousands. I don't understand it.
>>>>
>>>> I don't claim any great driving skill but I managed to drive 150 plus
>>>> miles in the same mess without any problems. (in a two wheel drive pickup)
>>>
>>> The primary problem is they simply won't slow down sufficiently enough
>>> to even have a half-chance when they do lose it when either
>>
>>> a) somebody in front loses it,
>>> b) they try to pass on icy lane and lose it,
>>> c) they try to stop themselves
>>
>> I found exactly the opposite, yesterday. People were so scared they
>> wouldn't move. They drove too *slow* (as in stopped) and the snow
>> under them turned to ice. There wasn't a chance to blow lanes clear
>> of pack the snow before it turned to ice. People stopped at the
>> bottom of hills. They're probably still there.
>
>Yep, got behind one going so slow that there was no way they were going
>to make it over the next hill, I found a nice place to pull over and
>waited until they were out of the picture before going on.

Same thing happened tonight on the way home (two days after the snow).
Some moron got stuck on the same hill and cops had the road blocked
off. I had to drive ~10Mi around. There is still a lot of ice
around, where the sun couldn't get at it.

>> The other big problem is that there are no Winter tires here (myself
>> included) and many are running slicks.
>
>I do have good mud/snow tires, it helps.

I don't. It's a new truck so has new tires but it does get a little
goosy going up slick hills. My wife has been stuck at home since
Monday and is about to go over the wall. I went into work at noon and
called back to tell her to forget it.

<...>

On 1/30/2014 4:39 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>>
>> No Kidding Man! That's one of the bigger issues with metal. Those
>> cute little snow stops are about useless - ask anyone who has shared
>> your experience. Plus - if you do have to get up on that roof (say
>> to... oh,... maybe clean a chimney...), wel, you can imagine...
>
> *snip*
>
> I thought about putting a couple of them up over a Morton Building door.
> Shut the door and whoosh! snow all over. I've been wondering if it'd be
> worth the effort...
>
> Puckdropper
>
I think the snow bars... where they are bars that go across might work
out better.

--
Jeff

On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 14:51:27 -0500, FrozenNorth
>Yep, I have never worried about it in Canada is the 17 years I have been
>in this house, never a problem. Those in the deep south do not need to
>worry, it will all be melted in a couple days anyway.

What kind of roof do you have that you don't have to worry about ice
dams?

On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 23:38:57 -0500, [email protected] wrote:

>On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 14:51:27 -0500, FrozenNorth
>>Yep, I have never worried about it in Canada is the 17 years I have been
>>in this house, never a problem. Those in the deep south do not need to
>>worry, it will all be melted in a couple days anyway.
>
>What kind of roof do you have that you don't have to worry about ice
>dams?

Keep the roof at a constant temperature and you won't get ice dams.
The problem arises then ice melts in the center of the roof and
refreezes at the soffits, where it's cooler. The idea is to ventilate
the roof so that it stays the same temperature across the span, as
over the soffits.

On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 13:59:18 -0500, woodchucker <[email protected]>
wrote:

>For those of you not in snow country..
>Some of you got dumped on..
>
>It pays to get the snow off the 1st 2 feet of the roof. I have a snow
>rake and get about 4 feet off. But assuming most of you southerners
>don't have it.
>
>Take a broom and try to get the 2 feet at the bottom of your roofs
>cleared. It may save you lots of money in rotted wood, or your shop if
>you have a basement shop.
>
>Years ago the ice damn caused a lot of water to run inside the house and
>it travelled the joists and soaked a lot of wood and also rusted a lot
>of stuff.
>
>Just an FYI..

Hmm. When I lived in Vermont, it was no problem. The roofs stayed
cold enough that ice dams weren't a problem. Well, in the houses that
weren't built in the '70s or early '80s.

Here in GA it might be more of a concern. Though we only got a couple
of inches of snow and it'll probably all be gone Saturday.

The issue was the attic getting warmer than freezing while the eves
were colder. Any water then gets "dammed" by the ice over the eves.
This shouldn't be a problem, in this case, because the roof will be
the same temperature, as it warms. Assuming a ventilated attic and
insulation, of course.

On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 12:54:45 -0700, Just Wondering
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On 1/29/2014 12:52 PM, woodchucker wrote:
>> On 1/29/2014 2:34 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
>>> On 1/29/2014 11:59 AM, woodchucker wrote:
>>>> For those of you not in snow country..
>>>> Some of you got dumped on..
>>>>
>>>> It pays to get the snow off the 1st 2 feet of the roof. I have a snow
>>>> rake and get about 4 feet off. But assuming most of you southerners
>>>> don't have it.
>>>>
>>>> Take a broom and try to get the 2 feet at the bottom of your roofs
>>>> cleared. It may save you lots of money in rotted wood, or your shop if
>>>> you have a basement shop.
>>>>
>>>> Years ago the ice damn caused a lot of water to run inside the house and
>>>> it travelled the joists and soaked a lot of wood and also rusted a lot
>>>> of stuff.
>>>>
>>> Your roof isn't constructed right. If it was, what you describe
>>> wouldn't happen.
>>
>> Really. Ice damning is a normal occurrence.
>
>So what? If a roof is constructed properly, ice damming will not cause
>water to do what you describe. There are millions of properly
>constructed roofs to prove it.
Built for southern conditions, then hit with snow, could conseivably
cause ide dam problems. We build differently in snow zones.

A "properly constructed" roof in Atlanta or New Orleans would not be
built to handle snow and freeze-thaw cycles.

On 2/6/2014 10:15 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>>
>> Or as you attempt to pass using cruise control, he speeds up.
>
> Isn't that one just a jewel? You have to believe that you caught them
> asleep at the wheel, and once they realized they were getting passed, they
> react.
>


It all seems to work around the common denominator of not being behind
"ME". LOL

On 1/29/2014 3:05 PM, Markem wrote:
> And millions that are not as water tight, so to err on the side of
> caution is not a bad idea. I have found it really difficult to
> determine whether it is "constructed right" by looking from the
> ground.


Properly installed, "water and ice shield", you should be able to see it
under the drip edge, where it has been rolled over the fascia ... you
just have to get close enough to see if it's there.

It it is over the drip edge, the installation is suspect.

Amazingly enough, we do spec "water and ice shield" in our roofing
contracts down here in Texas ... at least those interested in doing
things right do.

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On Tue, 4 Feb 2014 23:34:55 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>John Grossbohlin wrote:
>> "basilisk" wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>
>>> What most southerners could really benefit from is rudimentary
>>> driving lessons, for instance yesterday there was a little over an
>>> inch on the roads, it's cold enough that it is a dry blowing snow
>>> over some pack ice on the roads. People drove in the ditches by the
>>> tens of thousands. I don't understand it.
>>
>> Last Wednesday morning one of those drivers got stuck on the railroad
>> tracks just north of Gainesville... the AMTRAK train I was on hit the
>> car shortly after the driver abandoned it. Net result was a tow
>> truck was needed to pull the car out of the front of the train and we
>> had a 2 hour 20 minute delay... I saw thousands of abandoned and
>> trapped cars... 3-5 lane wide parking lots that went on for mile
>> after mile! Glad we skirted most of the problems... ran into some
>> closed roads though as so many cars were abandoned that they were
>> blocked to further traffic. Crazy!
>
>I've seen similar types of congestion in the south where they just don't
>have the equipment to deal with this kind of storm. To be honest, our
>drivers up north are getting more and more stupid as the years go by. We
>see way more foolish stuff that people up here should just simply be aware
>of, but seemingly are not. I guess it just owes to the dumbing down of
>people. We don't see the same kind of problems since we are in the snow
>country and we at least do have the equipment to deal with it but we seem to
>be growing a newer and newer crop of stupidity.
Well, I was supposed to go out to the airport for my weekly "hangar
lunch" at noon, but the white crap was coming down pretty good - and
it was that grainy crap - not nice soft flakes - which made the roads
slippery as goose shit. The pick-em-up has snows and posi - but trying
to get around the corner from Weber Street to Columbia in Waterloo
the truck wanted to go straight ahead whether I had the brakes or the
gas on, and regardless which way I had the wheels turned. The snow
bank stopped me. Then I had to stop again when there were about a
dozen vehicles trying to make it up the grade in 6 inches of snow - I
went all the way up the hill crosswise, and decided to just go home
(another 2 blocks on the level) instead of another 10 miles of country
hills and curves.

Sometimes it's all about knowing when to quit!!!

On Thu, 06 Feb 2014 09:20:13 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 2/6/2014 7:33 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Swingman wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> The other problem is that if you do keep a safe distance between you
>>> and the car in front of you, some Asshat will immediately occupy it.
>>>
>>
>> A particular piss me right off thing! The other thing that pisses me right
>> off is when you're on the interstate and traveling in the left lane. In the
>> right lane is a truck that you are overtaking at a pretty good rate. Behind
>> him is a car that is going somewhere between your speed and the speed of the
>> truck. As you are just getting to the truck, the car pulls in front of you
>> to pass the truck at his current rate of speed - because he simply can't
>> kick off his cruise control until you pass. Never fails - it happens just
>> as you are getting right up on the two of them. So now you're right on his
>> bumper and he's continuing at his previous speed.
>>
>
>
>Or your are going down the highway on cruise control and catch up with
>the vehicle in the right lane, the same lane you are in. You pass him
>and pull back over in front of him and a mile later he is back in front
>of you and immediately slows down.
>
>
>Or as you attempt to pass using cruise control, he speeds up.

That's the norm. There is a natural tendency to match the speed of
the cars around you. I often wonder if I'm the only one on the road
with cruise control.

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...


>My best story though is when I was in the left lane passing. I'm on the
>same 10 mile stretch of highway I've been using to go to work for 23 years.
>I set the cruise at 70 and just go, passing a radar trap at least twice a
>week.

>One day I'm in the left lane at 70 slowly passing a line of cars in the
>right lane. A guy gets on my tail and is very impatient. I made him wait
>until I passed the other cars, then moved to the right. He flew by me and
>100 yards later was pulled over by the State Police with radar.

I refer to that as "bear hunting..." One day I got two! LOL

John

On 1/30/2014 7:13 AM, Jeff Thies wrote:

> Southerners do not understand ice and snow.

Bullshit! We even have a snowplow:

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On 01/29/2014 12:59 PM, woodchucker wrote:
> For those of you not in snow country..
> Some of you got dumped on..
>
> It pays to get the snow off the 1st 2 feet of the roof. I have a snow
> rake and get about 4 feet off. But assuming most of you southerners
> don't have it.
>
> Take a broom and try to get the 2 feet at the bottom of your roofs
> cleared. It may save you lots of money in rotted wood, or your shop if
> you have a basement shop.
>
> Years ago the ice damn caused a lot of water to run inside the house and
> it travelled the joists and soaked a lot of wood and also rusted a lot
> of stuff.
>
> Just an FYI..
>
I have never seen an ice dam form in AL. usually or snow events last for
10 hours or so and melt completely in a day or so.

If we have a mini ice age, I'll heed your warning.

What most southerners could really benefit from is rudimentary
driving lessons, for instance yesterday there was a little over an inch
on the roads, it's cold enough that it is a dry blowing snow over some
pack ice on the roads. People drove in the ditches by the tens of
thousands. I don't understand it.

I don't claim any great driving skill but I managed to drive 150 plus
miles in the same mess without any problems. (in a two wheel drive pickup)

basilisk

On 01/29/2014 03:59 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 15:28:32 -0600, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 1/29/2014 2:37 PM, basilisk wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> I have never seen an ice dam form in AL. usually or snow events last for
>>> 10 hours or so and melt completely in a day or so.
>>>
>>> If we have a mini ice age, I'll heed your warning.
>>>
>>> What most southerners could really benefit from is rudimentary
>>> driving lessons, for instance yesterday there was a little over an inch
>>> on the roads, it's cold enough that it is a dry blowing snow over some
>>> pack ice on the roads. People drove in the ditches by the tens of
>>> thousands. I don't understand it.
>>>
>>> I don't claim any great driving skill but I managed to drive 150 plus
>>> miles in the same mess without any problems. (in a two wheel drive pickup)
>>
>> The primary problem is they simply won't slow down sufficiently enough
>> to even have a half-chance when they do lose it when either
>
>> a) somebody in front loses it,
>> b) they try to pass on icy lane and lose it,
>> c) they try to stop themselves
>
> I found exactly the opposite, yesterday. People were so scared they
> wouldn't move. They drove too *slow* (as in stopped) and the snow
> under them turned to ice. There wasn't a chance to blow lanes clear
> of pack the snow before it turned to ice. People stopped at the
> bottom of hills. They're probably still there.

Yep, got behind one going so slow that there was no way they were going
to make it over the next hill, I found a nice place to pull over and
waited until they were out of the picture before going on.
>
> The other big problem is that there are no Winter tires here (myself
> included) and many are running slicks.

I do have good mud/snow tires, it helps.

> Then there are the truly stupid, like the guy that did a 3-point
> U-turn in front of me, into a driveway that was declined about 5' in
> 40'. Of course he was driving a 2WD pickup with no weight in the
> back. I was also driving a pickup (no weight) but I have good tires
> and was smart enough to pick the next driveway (flat). Some bozo
> couldn't even manage that driveway and drove over the person's lawn to
> get out.
>
>> as the primary instigators.
>>
>> I'm always simply amazed at how many UPS drivers seem no better,
>> nationwide. They must be in the OTR race for rollovers and landing in
>> medians/ditches by an order of magnitude or more compared the rest of
>> the national carrier brands...
>
> Their trucks don't looks especially good for snow; top and front
> heavy, with RWD.
>
>> We had just a couple of inches Monday night that left a fairly slick
>> surface on the blacktop bypass around town Tuesday. I'd run to town for
>> the mail after shoveling the walks off and doing chores and was about
>> plowed over by an oversize load guy while in the turn lane to make the
>> turn on our road waiting for oncoming. I was getting ready to head on
>> straight and hit the ditch behind the other guy when he did finally
>> manage to straighten it out but wasn't but a few lengths behind me when
>> he did...again, nothing but idiocy of trying to drive 50 in 30 mph
>> conditions. There were enough tracks that even his load rig started
>> swinging from one to another and when he tried to shut 'er down he did
>> it too quickly...very easy to see what was happening; not much of
>> anywhere to go w/ the other one coming over the hill from the south.
>
> I tell people that the "shoulder is your friend" but here there are
> many places there is no shoulder, only a 20' drop to the woods below.
>
None here either, only on the interstates, not even the US highways have
usable shoulders.

basilisk