Isn't relying of someone else's plans kinda like painting by paint by numbers?

Thanks to Ed, Micheal and Jester99

So what you have all said is that looking at plans will spark an idea,
like looking up reference material in a book or magazine article.
That's something I can relate to as I have a few books on woodworking,
finishing, etc.

You don't just pin a plan to the wall and go from step A to Z, and after
completing that project, secure another plan and follow it to the letter
also. You adapt and decide what elements would work for your project.
You borrow ideas. That's useful and instructional. Conceptualizing a
project is sometimes a lengthy process for me. The "doing" is usually
the easier part of the process (for ME).

It IS more fun though, for me to do an entire project "by myself". One
of my neighbors tinkers with lots of different projects in his garage.
Recently he showed off a corner cabinet he built for a bedroom tv. His
obvious pride when he showed me the finished project struck me as odd,
as he began telling me how he had to buy the drawer fronts and doors.
He built the carcass, but what shows are the components that he bought.
I didn't want to burst his bubble but when I left, I spoke with my
wife about how he feels like he built the whole thing. I vowed that if
I showed someone a cabinet I'd built, that I wouldn't say that I built
it myself, if the visible parts were purchased, rather than crafted.

Again, thanks guys, for the insights.

dave

Bay Area Dave wrote:

> Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans. Doesn't anybody have a
> clue of what THEY want to make, rather than copying someone else's
> ideas? I'm constantly amazed at the things people ask for plans for.
> They even PAY for plans! The fun in building something for me is coming
> up with a design, and then implementing it. If I said I was as painter,
> I sure as heck wouldn't get a paint by numbers kit and just paint within
> the lines. That's NOT a hobby. OR is it?? Am I all wet?? Do I have the
> wrong idea about what woodworking is about?
>
> This little rant is designed NOT to hurt anyone's feelings: I JUST WANT
> TO START A DIALOG ON THE SUBJECT, AS I JUST DON'T GET IT!
>
> Perhaps the reason that people need plans is they can't think in three
> dimensions?? Is that it?
>
> Dave
>

On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 03:03:10 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans. Doesn't anybody have a
>> clue of what THEY want to make, rather than copying someone else's
>> ideas?
>
>Plans are like training wheels. OK for a spin or two, but you'll never
>learn how to ride unless you take them off.
>
>I bought a couple of sets of plans to learn from, but changed dimensions,
>changed shapes, etc, to suit my needs and my taste. I've also take a note
>pad and tape measure to the store.
>
>The projects I'm most proud of are the ones that came from my head. Plans
>though, can give some ideas on what type of joints or materials to use in
>certain situations. They are a learning took, just like books and reading
>this NG.
>Ed
>[email protected]
>http://pages.cthome.net/edhome
>
>

Like Ed, I think plans can be training wheels. Or a good starting
point for your own creation.

The most satisfying thing I've built is one completely dreamt up by
me, two pairs of sliding shoji screens for use as a window treatment.

Fri, Aug 22, 2003, 2:42am (EDT+4) [email protected] (Bay=A0Area=A0Dave)
doesn't get it:
Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans.

I don't. But, a lot of people ask because they are too idle to
look for themselves, or believe their time is "too valuable" to spend
looking for plans. And, some are probably not aware of how to look for
plans.

Doesn't anybody have a clue of what THEY want to make, rather than
copying someone else's ideas?

Well, yes, they do, that's why they're asking for plans for
something. I wouldn't call it "copying someone else's ideas" tho.
Someone just starting out would usually be better off following someone
else's plans.

Before your time here, but, as I've said before, some people just
prefer using plans. Someone else's plans, that is. Even if they have
the experience and knowledge to draft professional quality plans of
their own. They just like to work from plans. I would say people like
that know what they want to make.

I'm constantly amazed at the things people ask for plans for.

You didn't give any examples.

They even PAY for plans!

And? I occassionally pay for plans too. Does thst make me a bad
person?

The fun in building something for me is coming up with a design, and
then implementing it.

It is for some people, not all. See above. Most of the time I
work from no plans, maybe some measurements, other times a rough sketch
or two. Once in a blue moon I make up a more complete set of plans for
something. I occassionally work with other people' plans, but seldom
don't change somehing, when I do.

If I said I was as painter, I sure as heck wouldn't get a paint by
numbers kit and just paint within the lines. That's NOT a hobby. OR is
it??

Well, if you call yourself a painter, have a truck, ladders, and a
couple of helpers, then no, I would say that's NOT a hobby. But, if you
just paint your house every year, I would say it's a hobby.

Am I all wet?? Do I have the wrong idea about what woodworking is about?

Yes. Yes. Sounds like you're trying too hard to make it all black
and white. Things are seldom just black and white. Usually some black,
some white, separated by a big grey (or gray) patch.


This little rant is designed NOT to hurt anyone's feelings:

You hurt my feelings anyway. LMAO

I JUST WANT TO START A DIALOG ON THE SUBJECT

Yep, realized that right from the start.
, AS I JUST DON'T GET IT!

So you say. So what? It boils down to, different strokes for
different folks.

Perhaps the reason that people need plans is they can't think in three
dimensions?? Is that it?

Nope. I can think in three dimensions, sometimes four. And, I
still buy plans once in awhile. Plans good. Especially printed plans,
so you can hold them and look at them. Some plans are for just
dreamin'. I've got some plans stuck away, I pull 'em out once in
awhile, just to look at. They're for things I know I will never make,
just for dreaming about. Hell, some of them are so damn complicated I
probably couldn't actually make them, even if I started tomorrow. So
what? Some things are like that, doesn't detract a bit. Those are the
things you don't tell people about them, because you don't need somebody
telling you, "You'll never make one of those". I have some other plans,
that I hope to build one day, a more realistic form of dreams.
Sometimes you can tell people about thos, sometimes not. Then there are
a few plans, that once I get a some personal things settled, I intend to
start on. This will be dreams realized. These plans you can usually
tell people about. But, you'll probably still get some idiot telling
you, "You can't make one of those". Those are the people you tell, "Up
yours". You gotta have dreams, some you know you will never do, some
you at least kow are possible, and some you know you can do, and will
do.

Besides, plans are always fun to look at, for me anyway, any kind
of plans. The plans for the Spruce Goose for example, I have no
interesting in flying anything more complex than a kite, but enjoyed the
Spruce Goose plans. Didn't save a copy, because that isn't my thing.
And, I'm one of those people who aren't young, and know everything. I'm
old enough to know I don't know everything, never will, don't care, and
still trying to learn as much as I can. Amazing the new ideas you can
get from someone else's plans, sometime's it just copying an idea, other
times it's inspiration for something a little different.

Plans are good. Besides finding plans on the web, last time I
cheked, I have more woodworking books (not including magazines) the
county library. And still pretty much wing it as far as plans go It's
all about enjoying it.

And, if you still don't get it, the Woodworking Gods have informed
me that I am not here to elucidate you, and not to worry about it.

JOAT
If we're all God's children, what's so special about Jesus?

Life just ain't life without good music. - JOAT
Web Page Update 20 Aug 2003. Some tunes I like.
http://community-2.webtv.net/Jakofalltrades/SOMETUNESILIKE/

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:Qgw1b.215
> And also entertainers are for
> entertainment, absolutely not a source of usable or credible information.

Love it! It turns my stomach when these idiots become experts on issues
because it gets them in front of the camera. <rant on Fonda and many others
snipped>.

Greg

Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote:

> David,
>
> Your point is taken. However, in the case of the Dixie Shits they
> should have left Landslide to Fleetwood Mac, and kept their mouths shut
> about Bush.
>
> dave

Tell you what, they did USA a favour over this side of the pond by
making people realise not all of you Yanks think the same way as George
W. Some of us already knew that of course, I've been a reference for an
American in gaining UK citizenship. Some people seem to need somewhere
else to live than your great country for a while...

Peter

People want to get pointed in the right direction, is all.

I love looking at plans. I've not ever built anything by following them
(even jigs), but they're fantastics for ideas. Both on how and how not
to buiild a thing.

For someone who has a few tools, likes making sawdust, and has a SWMBO
who takes him at his word when she's looking at a $2K wall unit and he
sez "Doesn't look that hard to build"...

Whatta you 'spect? Hell, if I didn't know how to DOAGS I'd be asking
too!

(Even got an ellipsis in there! <ggg>)

djb

--
"I'll do the stupid thing first and then you shy people follow..." - Frank Zappa

Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> John,
>
> No I haven't reached very far up the ladder of expertise. I'm new to
> building cabinets. I DID do them without using anyone's plans, but
> that's only after a lot of thought, using Excel to get the dimensions
> right, and thinking about what I wanted. My workbench and cabinets are
> simple affairs; had I a complex project, my limited ideas would fail me
> and I'd need much assistance.
>
> I wasn't condemning anyone for painting by numbers. It was the first
> thing I thought of as an analogy. It's been pointed out by several
> folks that it was a poor one. I used it in the mistaken belief that
> following along with a plan offered no creativity or sense of
> accomplishment. That was my mistaken idea. I get it now.
>
> Let me share something: Years ago I built a 25" TV, and o'scope, and a
> couple of other electronic testers. I didn't feel a whole lot of sense
> of accomplishment because they were all kits. I followed page after
> page of detailed instructions in order to build those things. So I
> related that feeling of lack of accomplishment to the use of plans while
> woodworking. Instead of mentioning the kit building, I thought of paint
> by numbers first...
>
> Also I recognize that everyone has their own skill set. I was wondering
> out loud if the need to follow plans was due to a lack of 3D thinking.
> That's not a character flaw. Now I see that the "need" is not usually a
> "need"; but a convenience, a tool. As I've mentioned to other posters
> this morning, I have seen the error in my thinking!
>
> and thank you for contributing to this very interesting thread.
>
> dave
>
> John McCoy wrote:
> snip
> > (you, I gather, have reached a certain level of expertise).
> > scratch.
> >
> > To take your painting example, many of the old masters of the
> > renaissance learned by painting over another master's work.
> > They weren't born with an inate grasp of color & perspective,
> > they learned it. Would you condemn their later work because
> > they started with "paint by numbers"?
> >
> > John
I`m new to woodworking but most of all I enjoy buying woodworking
magazines and
reading them before work and at lunch time.
I`m good at my trade (which isn`t woodworking).
I`m glad woodworking tradesmen don`t need plans.They just need to be
more understanding,to some this is a hobbie.
If somebodies that good at designing and planning then sell them to
the ones who buy them. And get over it=)

Guess what my first real major, furniture project was? A Red Oak, raised
panel desk. Yes it was from plans. And Indeed I learned alot. Like Color
matching, and in particular reading a set of plans the RIGHT way. To
understand that last phrase you must realize that my drawers ended up on the
opposite side because I machined the panel on the wrong end. Talk about
your modifications.:)
I still had the reputation for the "GUY with the drawers on the wrong side
of the desk".
I may still have the plans or at least where they came from lying about.

--
Young Carpenter

"Save a Tree, Build Furniture"

"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> To all who responded:
>
> I appreciate your thoughtful responses. Truly. I sort of thought my
> opinion on the subject was askew; you've all helped to make me less
> reticent to search for plans for my next project; an oak desk to replace
> a metal Hon desk in my study. It can't be very big, and I'm over 6
> feet, so it'll have to be a bit higher than normal. See, I'm already
> thinking of modifications! :)
>
> dave
>




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Since I am late into this discussion I can add to the philosophies of
everyone else.
MY Basis:
As I understand it Years Ago in the days of master Craftsman (not talking
about a Sears line here) and apprenticeship, Design was something that was
taught. My teachers always said If you can't draw it you probably can't
build it. They had a point. Although it is nice to just buy a plan and
build with everything figured out, there are a few things missing, Like Why
this joint is this way and not that. Anyway Design was taught buy having
them copy out of previous masters plan books. As the student advanced he
modified the plan, if it worked it was added to the plan book or the
modifications were written in, etc. Finally he got to the point that he
knew what was what and drafted his own plan completely.
So is it like painting by numbers? Maybe, but as a kid did you have great
color concept? probably not. You had to start somewhere. Did the picture
come out. Hopefully yes. Thats the philisophical part.
The practical part:
I agree with Ben Sider on the drafting part. If I had never been to college
and learned drafting, carpentry, or cabinet making (a little bit) Then I
would probably not even know where to start in my drafting. Sometimes plans
are easiser, even now. They help me see various styles and joints and
procedures taht I would never had known about.
Newbies need to start somewhere. However A guy who has read books and done
projects for a year, and asks "I need a plan for a book shelf 3x6 set of
shelves" Maybe shouldn't be using those tools in the first place. He
problably hasn't learned anything. If he says "I want the plans to Norms
bookshelves he did last week made out of Maple" he has a point and wants a
certain style.
Some guys are lazy wanting gracious people like JOAT to do their work for
them. Some are just ignorant. Some don't deserve even the "hobbiest"
label.
If you won't read, what are you doing here anyway. If you are too cheap to
buy a $20 book on design, drafting etc. or spend $$ for a class then find a
new hobby. Its gonna cost you huge $$$$$$$$$ in the future anyway. Might
as well spend the first few $$ on training.
Second Point: some can do the "plans I don't need no stinkin plans" and
come up with a master piece. However most people start with a plan of some
sort. Remember I said even Master craftsmen had plans. How detailed, is
another story. For me it's a skill I have developed. I can now draw basic
dimensions and make a descent project. A few years ago forget it.
Three. Plans are made to be modified. I cann't think of the last plan I
did to the T. Everyone comes out different than the intended. Usually do
to my ineptitude, but one of my most recent projects I made a modification
'cuse A. I hated the style. B. if anyone had ever dragged it accross the
floor the whole thing would have ripped apart.
Conclusion: Shunning your own plans is stupid, shunning other plans is
stupid, refusing to learn is idiocracy.
off my box for now.

--
Young Carpenter

"Save a Tree, Build Furniture"




Bay Area Dave raved:
> Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans. Doesn't anybody have a
> clue of what THEY want to make, rather than copying someone else's
> ideas? I'm constantly amazed at the things people ask for plans for.
> They even PAY for plans! The fun in building something for me is coming
> up with a design, and then implementing it. If I said I was as painter,
> I sure as heck wouldn't get a paint by numbers kit and just paint within
> the lines. That's NOT a hobby. OR is it?? Am I all wet?? Do I have the
> wrong idea about what woodworking is about?
>
> This little rant is designed NOT to hurt anyone's feelings: I JUST WANT
> TO START A DIALOG ON THE SUBJECT, AS I JUST DON'T GET IT!
>
> Perhaps the reason that people need plans is they can't think in three
> dimensions?? Is that it?
>
> Dave
>





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Yeah I got my 8300 in Sep of 1985 also... to floppy drives.... I added a 30
meg HD 2 years later along with a mouse. Worked great for 4 or 5 years..

Ben,
funny you began your post with "narrow and egocentric" view. I used
somewhat the same description of myself earlier. I hope you realize
that I crafted the OP to be provocative. I expecting to be flamed,
actually, but thankfully everyone that has responded has done a superb
job of detailing that plans are useful in many ways.

Yup, I am mixing (in my thinking) woodworking with design, as relates to
woodworking as a hobby. That's why I was looking for comments on the
practice of using plans. From many of the replies I can now see that a
plan can be like a recipe that you spice up. a starting point. well
engineered joinery. I'm getting it, man, I'm GETTING it!

Yes, I know I sounded self-righteous. I expected that response. I was
playing devil's advocate in order to prompt discussion. The tone I took
was " I don't get it. why are you guys doing this? doesn't make sense
to me. plans aren't needed. why spend money on them?" Now I've gotten
a more clear understanding of the value of using a plan, or maybe just
culling some ideas from one, to incorporate into our own creation,
thereby saving time, using proper joinery, or adding design elements
that otherwise would have been lacking, or misproportioned.

My biggest liability is a lack of imagination. I'm more of a problem
solver; doing is easier for me than envisioning. Once I finally get a
"plan" in my head, I rest easy, knowing that building the thing is the
easier part. Not that it's always so easy, but I'm talking relatively,
here. I procrastinate at the beginning stages, thinking of what should
'it' look like, what materials should 'it' be made of, what size is 'it'
gonna be, what finish should I use. I don't want to start a project and
then realize well into it that it's not gonna "work". So I agonize over
my plan before I cut the first boards.

and to answer your question about what I'm amazed people ask for plans
for: a sled. I gave my .02 to a recent thread on sleds, and I believe
that the OP understood my response that HIS sled needs to be dimensioned
for HIS needs, rather than a one size fits all strategy. I wasn't trying
to be either rude or unhelpful; quite the contrary, sometimes it's good
to push someone to think a little more about the reason for building a
shop aid, such as a TS sled, BEFORE they blindly follow someone else's
design. When they ask how big it should be, wouldn't you tell them to
think about what they plan on cutting with it?

I'm not sure it doesn't take some skill to paint by numbers. My
attempts at it as I child were atrocious. The final result always
looked like hell! :)

dave

Ben Siders wrote:

> On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 02:42:30 +0000, Bay Area Dave wrote:
>
> This is a pretty narrow and egocentric view to take.
>
>
>>Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans. Doesn't anybody have a
>>clue of what THEY want to make, rather than copying someone else's
>>ideas?
>
>
> I know what I want to make, but I don't know how. Not yet, anyway. And
> sometimes I just want to make SOMETHING and don't know how. I'm just
> getting started in woodworking. The first thing I did was build a cheap
> workbench, and I used my leftover materials to build a low assembly table.
> I got the workbench plans off the Interweb (har) and I drafted the plans
> for my assembly table on my own.
>
>
>> I'm constantly amazed at the things people ask for plans for.
>
>
> Like?
>
>
>>They even PAY for plans!
>
>
> So?
>
>
>>The fun in building something for me is coming
>>up with a design, and then implementing it.
>
>
> Not everybody has the know-how to draft quality plans that they can
> follow. I've done 4 years of hand drafting and CAD, am a decent artist,
> and I still can't just whip up plans to whatever I want. What I can do,
> though, is measure the area I want to place a piece in and go find plans
> for a piece that has the look I want and adjust them to fit my space. Why
> re-invent the wheel? Why go to all the hassle of drawing up plans when
> somebody else may have drafted exactly what I want?
>
>
>>If I said I was as painter,
>>I sure as heck wouldn't get a paint by numbers kit and just paint within
>>the lines.
>
>
> I don't like this analogy. It doesn't take any knowledge, skill,
> experience, or even any real tools to follow a paint-by-number kit.
> Suppose you were a painter, however, and masterfully replicated Monet's _Le
> bateau atelier_. Would you then be willing to say that you've done
> nothing and your painting isn't a hobby because you just copied somebody
> else's idea? I doubt it.
>
>
>>That's NOT a hobby. OR is it??
>
>
> Anything you do on a semi-regular basis to pass the time could be
> considered a hobby, in my opinion.
>
>
>>Am I all wet?? Do I have the
>>wrong idea about what woodworking is about?
>
>
> Yes, you do. You're mixing woodworking with design. You don't have to be
> a masterful woodworking to design a piece. You don't have a design a
> piece to be a masterful woodworking. I think most people learn how to do
> both at the same time, but certainly many people, especially newer folks
> like me, probably lack enough skill/knowledge in either discipline to
> design what we want to build. It's also possible that people just want
> plans to get an idea of what kind of joints to use, what type of wood
> looks good, veneers, what order to do things in, the name of the router
> bit to use, etc, etc.
>
>
>>This little rant is designed NOT to hurt anyone's feelings: I JUST WANT
>>TO START A DIALOG ON THE SUBJECT, AS I JUST DON'T GET IT!
>
>
> Well, my feelings aren't hurt, but you do come across as a bit
> self-righteous. Not everybody does it your way, so you are openly
> questioning whether or not they're even "real" woodworkers?
>
>
>>Perhaps the reason that people need plans is they can't think in three
>>dimensions?? Is that it?
>
>
> MANY people have this problem. MANY MANY MANY people. You need only
> witness how many people can easily cruise through a year of
> two-dimensional math in college and just get crucified when they reach the
> second year and have to do three-variable calculus. But I think many
> people just lack the time, training, expertise, or desire to draft their
> own plans, especially if they think there's a good chance that somebody
> else had the same idea they had and they don't feel like re-inventing the
> wheel.
>
> Just my input on it the topic, as a complete neophyte.

In article <[email protected]>,
Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> writes:
>This little rant is designed NOT to hurt anyone's feelings: I JUST WANT
>TO START A DIALOG ON THE SUBJECT, AS I JUST DON'T GET IT!

Dave,

Just my limited experiences:

I've built four major things from my own designs and two major things
from plans.

The first thing I ever built was a shop table for my planer. I didn't
have much else working, yet, so it's just screwed together and is
rickety. I designed it myself, though. Wish I'd known about half-lap
joints at the time. Maybe a plan would've helped.

The second thing I ever built was a table for my son, of my own
design. I didn't get a plan because it seemed to be to be very
straightforward. I looked at a number of other children's tables to
get the basic dimensions, and designed a big, heavy library table with
mortise and tenon jointery - but sized for a two year old. I'm very
proud of it.

The third thing I ever built was my son's bed. I looked for plans as
a basis because there was a lot about making a bed I didn't want to
learn by messing up $250 in cherry. I had no idea how to distribute
the loads, how big it should be relative to the mattress, or what
knock-down jointery system to use. I got _The Bed Book_ and
discovered that the first bed in it was exactly what the bed I wanted
to build. I changed the design not one iota. I'm also very proud of
that bed - while the design is not mine, I did select the wood, mill
it and select and implement the finish. If I do say so myself, it's
very pretty.

The fourth thing I ever built was some wall-mounted cabinets for my
shop. I designed them myself. One of them is in the process of
falling apart. I didn't do a dado for the backs, I just glued and
nailed them on, and that wasn't sufficient for the stresses. I wish
I'd spent more time looking at plans. Hopefully I'll be able to
salvage the materials.

The fifth thing I ever built was an enourmous (6' x 2 1/2') planter
for SWMBO. I designed it primarily to skimp on materials while
allowing for a lot of wood movement while not actually doing any
complicated jointery so that I could move on to a project I really
wanted to do. Between you and me I realized after it was about 90%
complete that, if you tried to pick it up in the most obvious way
while it was full of dirt that it was going to fall apart, so I
reinforced it with a bunch of metal L brackets. Yuck. I'm not very
proud of it, although I am happy with how it looks. I looked at a lot
of plans, and got a lot of ideas about how to design the drainage
system for it, but I never really found plans that were exactly what
I wanted, so I designed my own. I'm a big fan of the saying,
"Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want." This
project was good experience.

Finally, I'm building a bench along one wall loosely based upon Norm's
"Miter Bench and Storage." It's not exactly the same, but it was very
convenient, for such a large project, to have someone else provide a
materials and cut list. I'm also paying a lot more attention to how
to do things like build drawers so I don't make similar errors to what
happened with the cabinets.

To me, there's two basic reasons to use plans. First of all, I know
WAY more about woodworking than any other person I know.
Unfortunately, that's not saying much. Rather than teaching myself
how to design at the same time I teach myself craftmanship, building
from someone else's plans allows me to focus a lot of time on the
craft of building and not sweat about design details.

The second reason is that the plan is available and is exactly what I
need. Most of my woodworking at this time has a utilitarian base -
I'm building furniture and fixtures I need. If I see plans that are
for almost exactly what I want, it's a definite time-saver to use them
as a starting point. Since I'm researching plans anyway to get an
idea of what the design elements are to consider, if I find exactly
The Plan, why try to recreate it from scratch?

Do I hope to some day be able to just sit down and whip out a design
for any project? Absolutely. But I guess in some ways this lets me
apprentice myself to people like Jeff Miller or Norm Abram. The
master designs, and I implement, and in implementing try to understand
the design better.

-BAT

Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans. Doesn't anybody have a
> clue of what THEY want to make, rather than copying someone else's
> ideas? I'm constantly amazed at the things people ask for plans for.
> They even PAY for plans! The fun in building something for me is coming
> up with a design, and then implementing it. If I said I was as painter,
> I sure as heck wouldn't get a paint by numbers kit and just paint within
> the lines. That's NOT a hobby. OR is it?? Am I all wet?? Do I have the
> wrong idea about what woodworking is about?
>
> This little rant is designed NOT to hurt anyone's feelings: I JUST WANT
> TO START A DIALOG ON THE SUBJECT, AS I JUST DON'T GET IT!
>
> Perhaps the reason that people need plans is they can't think in three
> dimensions?? Is that it?
>
> Dave

Seems to me that most of those folks we call musicians play music
written by someone else, even the words they sing are usually by
someone else. The result may be termed their "interpretation" of the
song, but it is them playing and/or singing someone elses song. They
still win the Grammy, though don't they? All of the best cooks I have
ever known had recipe books in their kitchens. They may have made some
modifications to suit their own or their family's tastes, but they
used the recipe books. They still received the accolades when
everybody was sitting around with their belts loosened after a good
meal. A plan is nothing more than a recipe or a song. It is nice if
you are a person who can and enjoys the developement of the plan or
the recipe or the song, but the person who makes the item, sings the
song or cooks the meal gets the ultimate acknowledgement. Please don't
denigrate the skills and artistry of the woodworker who uses a plan
any more than you would the grammy winning singer or the best "mom"
who ever cooked a meal for you.

Dave Hall
Who uses plans at least as often as not (if not more so)

Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<%xg1b.228$
SNIP
>
> It IS more fun though, for me to do an entire project "by myself". One
> of my neighbors tinkers with lots of different projects in his garage.
> Recently he showed off a corner cabinet he built for a bedroom tv. His
> obvious pride when he showed me the finished project struck me as odd,
> as he began telling me how he had to buy the drawer fronts and doors.
> He built the carcass, but what shows are the components that he bought.
> I didn't want to burst his bubble but when I left, I spoke with my
> wife about how he feels like he built the whole thing. I vowed that if
> I showed someone a cabinet I'd built, that I wouldn't say that I built
> it myself, if the visible parts were purchased, rather than crafted.
>
> Again, thanks guys, for the insights.
>
> dave
>
> Bay Area Dave wrote:
>
So, I assume that you have that forge all fired up to make the hinges
for your next cabinet? (you can see those usually, you know). How
about that glass furnace for making the glass panels on that curio
cabinet for the living room? Somehow I have failed by not mining and
smelting the copper for the punched copper panels on that pie safe I
made for my MIL. I do assume that you grow, cut and mill all of your
lumber, don't you???? Man, what an ego. Why do you feel the need to
denigrate your neighbor because he enjoyed something a little
differently than you might have? I will never be David Marks (I doubt
that you will either), but I can enjoy the hobby any way I please,
whether I make masterpieces of cabinetry fit for a museum entirly from
my own (over active) imagination or just make some little wooden cars
for my grandsons. Either way, I should be able to have satisfaction
and, indeed, pride, in my efforts without someone like you trying to
piss in my wheaties just for your own ego stroking.

Dave Hall

Andy Dingley <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On 22 Aug 2003 13:09:49 -0700, [email protected] (David Hall)
> wrote:
>
> >So, I assume that you have that forge all fired up to make the hinges
> >for your next cabinet?
>
> I'm casting the bronze bails for some drawer pulls. Does that count ?
>
> I have absolutely no problem with someone buying hardware. If you want
> to call yourself a "woodworker", then why should this require you to
> do the metalwork on a completed piece as well ?
>
> Personally I make things like this:
> http://codesmiths.com/shed/furniture/airchair.htm
> Now I made almost none of this piece - that's rather the point in
> "found materials".

I think the point was that someone was being denigrated for using some
pre-made parts in a cabinet that they made and thus should not have
been able to say that they made it. I am not real sure where that line
gets drawn (or by whom or why it needs drawn at all). Obviously, you
probably make a higher proportion of the parts in your projects than
me if you are casting the bails. I often buy dowel rods, wheels,
wooden knobs, etc. used in my projects and don't feel any shame in
doing so. I guess to a purist I should not be able to say I made my
project since even some of the wooden parts were purchased already
made. To me it is no different than buying the hinges or the glass.
Where does the slippery slope end? Oh well, I guess I have vented far
too much on an issue of no meaning whatsoever. Sorry.

Dave Hall

There is a concept in the software industry referred to Patterns and
Practices. Or "Best Practices". Point of it is that if you are writing let's
say an Accounting package, there are some things that they should all have,
and ways in which certain function should work. Also, in the kitchen, we
have a thing called a recipe box. In it we have "plans" for different
foodstuffs. Granted I may like walnuts in my cake, or you might like
cherries, but if you don't get the right amount of baking powder or baking
soda in it, it will be a pile of goo.

I see plans as recipes. In the same vein there are reasons that most chairs
are so high and tables are another height. Granted that if your family is
taller than the norm, or shorter than the norm you might modify a set of
plans to make it so, but if one were making let's say a bed, and wanted
standard mattress and or sheets to fit it, you may wish to start with a set
of plans.

As for paint by numbers, I have seen some oil's done that way that are
beautiful, and the lady that did them thoroughly enjoyed herself. She
certainly considered that a hobby. I know a guy that makes wine, but he
starts with a mix rather than growing and stepping on his own grapes. he
still considers himself a wine maker, and enjoys his hobby... and may I say
the wine is delicious. hell, the guy that built my house used a set of
plans.

Are you suggesting that one using plans is not a hobbyist? Ok, so one must
make his own plans. How about using mfg wood products? Should one only use
solid wood... From trees that he felled himself, grown from his own seeds,
cut with an axe that he forged in a furnace that he built, fired by coal
that he mined himself......

You find your enjoyment in the design of things. That is wonderful and you
enjoy that. Some people, probably enjoy planing, jointing or dressing wood.
My son, for example couldn't be bothered with any of it, he just likes to
hammer nails. There are many aspects to this hobby, in the days of the
tradesmen (please no flames about how we still have tradesmen, I agree)
there were separate jobs. Jointer, Sawyer... etc. I can't imagine making
hand cut dovetails 10 - 16 hours a day, but that might really be somebody's
thing. I don't mind cutting a couple, either as a matter of discipline or
for bragging rights, but if I had to do a bunch give me a template and a
router...

This is starting to sound a bit flamey... I am not intending it that way.
Just ranting. I think I remember a thread a long time back about purists
getting to the point of banging on a tree with a rock... You can take any
aspect of the art, and say that is all it is. But design, is just that, one
aspect. On another note, just because one has a set of plans, doesn't mean
he can make it. The skills necessary to make a joint or even make a square
cut are still involved, as is finishing (something I absolutely hate by the
way.)

I have built some things from plans, others modified from basic plans, and
still other things from a picture or a discussion. I have fired up turbocad
and made my own things too. I have also "winged" it and found a certain way
through "I guess I can't get to that screw since I already glued that other
joint in the way..." I find no pleasure in that though.

-- Absinthe

"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans. Doesn't anybody have a
> clue of what THEY want to make, rather than copying someone else's
> ideas? I'm constantly amazed at the things people ask for plans for.
> They even PAY for plans! The fun in building something for me is coming
> up with a design, and then implementing it. If I said I was as painter,
> I sure as heck wouldn't get a paint by numbers kit and just paint within
> the lines. That's NOT a hobby. OR is it?? Am I all wet?? Do I have the
> wrong idea about what woodworking is about?
>
> This little rant is designed NOT to hurt anyone's feelings: I JUST WANT
> TO START A DIALOG ON THE SUBJECT, AS I JUST DON'T GET IT!
>
> Perhaps the reason that people need plans is they can't think in three
> dimensions?? Is that it?
>
> Dave
>

:) damn, you've got TOO good of a memory! Anyway, that drawer works,
just fine, I'll have you know!

dave

Rich wrote:
> Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> spewed...
>
>>Am I all wet?? Do I have the wrong idea about what woodworking is about?
>>
>
> I once saw a plan that showed how to install a drawer bottom prior to
> glueing up the sides. Good thing I didn't need it. A lot of it has
> to do with the fact that I'm tall.

David,

Your point is taken. However, in the case of the Dixie Shits they
should have left Landslide to Fleetwood Mac, and kept their mouths shut
about Bush.

dave

David Hall wrote:

> Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
>>Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans. Doesn't anybody have a
>>clue of what THEY want to make, rather than copying someone else's
>>ideas? I'm constantly amazed at the things people ask for plans for.
>>They even PAY for plans! The fun in building something for me is coming
>>up with a design, and then implementing it. If I said I was as painter,
>>I sure as heck wouldn't get a paint by numbers kit and just paint within
>>the lines. That's NOT a hobby. OR is it?? Am I all wet?? Do I have the
>>wrong idea about what woodworking is about?
>>
>>This little rant is designed NOT to hurt anyone's feelings: I JUST WANT
>>TO START A DIALOG ON THE SUBJECT, AS I JUST DON'T GET IT!
>>
>>Perhaps the reason that people need plans is they can't think in three
>>dimensions?? Is that it?
>>
>>Dave
>
>
> Seems to me that most of those folks we call musicians play music
> written by someone else, even the words they sing are usually by
> someone else. The result may be termed their "interpretation" of the
> song, but it is them playing and/or singing someone elses song. They
> still win the Grammy, though don't they? All of the best cooks I have
> ever known had recipe books in their kitchens. They may have made some
> modifications to suit their own or their family's tastes, but they
> used the recipe books. They still received the accolades when
> everybody was sitting around with their belts loosened after a good
> meal. A plan is nothing more than a recipe or a song. It is nice if
> you are a person who can and enjoys the developement of the plan or
> the recipe or the song, but the person who makes the item, sings the
> song or cooks the meal gets the ultimate acknowledgement. Please don't
> denigrate the skills and artistry of the woodworker who uses a plan
> any more than you would the grammy winning singer or the best "mom"
> who ever cooked a meal for you.
>
> Dave Hall
> Who uses plans at least as often as not (if not more so)

Sometimes people are looking for a little inspiration. I look at all
sorts of plans and get a few ideas from them, then draw out what works
for me. Thank god for libraries, magazines and pictures. Now do you
GET IT?

Bay Area Dave wrote:

> Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans. Doesn't anybody have a
> clue of what THEY want to make, rather than copying someone else's
> ideas? I'm constantly amazed at the things people ask for plans for.
> They even PAY for plans! The fun in building something for me is coming
> up with a design, and then implementing it. If I said I was as painter,
> I sure as heck wouldn't get a paint by numbers kit and just paint within
> the lines. That's NOT a hobby. OR is it?? Am I all wet?? Do I have the
> wrong idea about what woodworking is about?
>
> This little rant is designed NOT to hurt anyone's feelings: I JUST WANT
> TO START A DIALOG ON THE SUBJECT, AS I JUST DON'T GET IT!
>
> Perhaps the reason that people need plans is they can't think in three
> dimensions?? Is that it?
>
> Dave
>

To all who responded:

I appreciate your thoughtful responses. Truly. I sort of thought my
opinion on the subject was askew; you've all helped to make me less
reticent to search for plans for my next project; an oak desk to replace
a metal Hon desk in my study. It can't be very big, and I'm over 6
feet, so it'll have to be a bit higher than normal. See, I'm already
thinking of modifications! :)

dave

David, David, David! You are getting your panties in a bunch for
nothing. I didn't denigrate my neighbor. I was TRYING to relay the
fact here (not to his face) that he hadn't really BUILT the object he
was showing off, other than the carcass. So the visible quality,
materials, effort, and form wasn't his. Do you get MY point? If he had
said "I assembled this from parts", I'd have no quarrel with that
statement. Otherwise he exhibited misplaced pride. Are you following
me now, Dave?

dave

David Hall wrote:

> Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<%xg1b.228$
> SNIP
>
>>It IS more fun though, for me to do an entire project "by myself". One
>>of my neighbors tinkers with lots of different projects in his garage.
>>Recently he showed off a corner cabinet he built for a bedroom tv. His
>>obvious pride when he showed me the finished project struck me as odd,
>>as he began telling me how he had to buy the drawer fronts and doors.
>>He built the carcass, but what shows are the components that he bought.
>> I didn't want to burst his bubble but when I left, I spoke with my
>>wife about how he feels like he built the whole thing. I vowed that if
>>I showed someone a cabinet I'd built, that I wouldn't say that I built
>>it myself, if the visible parts were purchased, rather than crafted.
>>
>>Again, thanks guys, for the insights.
>>
>>dave
>>
>>Bay Area Dave wrote:
>>
>
> So, I assume that you have that forge all fired up to make the hinges
> for your next cabinet? (you can see those usually, you know). How
> about that glass furnace for making the glass panels on that curio
> cabinet for the living room? Somehow I have failed by not mining and
> smelting the copper for the punched copper panels on that pie safe I
> made for my MIL. I do assume that you grow, cut and mill all of your
> lumber, don't you???? Man, what an ego. Why do you feel the need to
> denigrate your neighbor because he enjoyed something a little
> differently than you might have? I will never be David Marks (I doubt
> that you will either), but I can enjoy the hobby any way I please,
> whether I make masterpieces of cabinetry fit for a museum entirly from
> my own (over active) imagination or just make some little wooden cars
> for my grandsons. Either way, I should be able to have satisfaction
> and, indeed, pride, in my efforts without someone like you trying to
> piss in my wheaties just for your own ego stroking.
>
> Dave Hall

"Peter Ashby" <[email protected]> wrote in message

> Tell you what, they did USA a favour over this side of the pond by
> making people realise not all of you Yanks think the same way as George
> W. Some of us already knew that of course,

Some of us Yanks would total about 5 or 6.

Yup! I sure do! please read my other responses...

dave

Grandpa wrote:

> Sometimes people are looking for a little inspiration. I look at all
> sorts of plans and get a few ideas from them, then draw out what works
> for me. Thank god for libraries, magazines and pictures. Now do you
> GET IT?
>
> Bay Area Dave wrote:
>
>> Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans. Doesn't anybody have a
>> clue of what THEY want to make, rather than copying someone else's
>> ideas? I'm constantly amazed at the things people ask for plans for.
>> They even PAY for plans! The fun in building something for me is
>> coming up with a design, and then implementing it. If I said I was as
>> painter, I sure as heck wouldn't get a paint by numbers kit and just
>> paint within the lines. That's NOT a hobby. OR is it?? Am I all
>> wet?? Do I have the wrong idea about what woodworking is about?
>>
>> This little rant is designed NOT to hurt anyone's feelings: I JUST
>> WANT TO START A DIALOG ON THE SUBJECT, AS I JUST DON'T GET IT!
>>
>> Perhaps the reason that people need plans is they can't think in three
>> dimensions?? Is that it?
>>
>> Dave
>>
>

oh, I left out the rest of the reason I said my 6300 was a POS. It was
jacked up when I bought it brand new and the idiots at the store
couldn't figure out what was wrong with it, so the first couple of days
I had to drive across town TWO more times to their store to get it
fixed. When it worked, it wasn't really that bad, but soon afterwards,
much better computers hit the market and I felt stupid for spending
$2,500 on it. But, then again, I ALWAYS pay too much, so why am I
complaining?

dave

Bay Area Dave wrote:

> WOW! It's Beauty-Ful! I want nearly the same thing, except for size I
> can only have one bank of drawers. I recognize the AT&T 6300. My first
> PC in 1985 for $2,500 with a 20 Meg (Not Gig) hard drive. A true POS!
> Monochrome, no mouse, no windows. but it got my feet wet using a PC and
> I learned to create R:Base programs, which ended up getting me a job or
> two after I left the auto repair world.
>
> Did you also make that chair? How did you make the top; is it glued up
> narrow oak?
>
> VERRRRY NICE!
>
>
> dave
>
> Leon wrote:
>
>> I posted that desk pic. on apbw
>>
>> "Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>> true...I never said I had all the answers! :)
>>>
>>> dave
>>>
>>> Leon wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> With that question, perhaps now you can understand why some people
>>
>>
>> wondered
>>
>>>> why a woodworker would buy a router cabinet rather than build one...
>>
>>
>> ;~)
>>
>>>> I built 2 but bought my last one...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

George,
I'm more highly educated this morning than yesterday, having read
responses in this thread. When I built my workbench and wall cabinets,
I first sat at my pc and worked in Excel to calculate dimensions, esp.
since there were dados and rabbets involved. Even so, one cabinet came
out a bit wider than I had designed, due to one oversight while doing
the calcs. But all in all, those 3 projects went pretty well,
considering how newbie I am at this. During construction of a drawer
for my Unisaw, I forget to dado for the bottom, which I realized just as
I glued it together. After much discussion, I ended up Roo gluing and
stapling the bottom to the underside edge of the drawer sides, since it
is a light duty drawer. Had I had more step by step plans, I would most
likely have avoid that snafu. As my projects become more complex, I'm
gonna hit a wall where I can't conceptualize the "whole package" any
longer. For the time being I've been able to get away with winging it. :)

dave

George wrote:

> Plans are the three "Rs" of woodworking. They are the distilled experience
> of their creator and generations of woodworkers before. You're using
> someone's plans even if you don't place a drawing on a board to guide you,
> the only difference is the paper they're rendered on. The principle is
> called vicarious experience - education.
>
> BTW, if you don't make a plan, at least to note basic dimensions, you're
> going to have a lot more things to complain about here - like wasting wood.
>
> "Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans. Doesn't anybody have a
>>clue of what THEY want to make, rather than copying someone else's
>>ideas? I'm constantly amazed at the things people ask for plans for.
>>They even PAY for plans! The fun in building something for me is coming
>>up with a design, and then implementing it. If I said I was as painter,
>>I sure as heck wouldn't get a paint by numbers kit and just paint within
>>the lines. That's NOT a hobby. OR is it?? Am I all wet?? Do I have the
>>wrong idea about what woodworking is about?
>>
>>This little rant is designed NOT to hurt anyone's feelings: I JUST WANT
>>TO START A DIALOG ON THE SUBJECT, AS I JUST DON'T GET IT!
>>
>>Perhaps the reason that people need plans is they can't think in three
>>dimensions?? Is that it?
>>
>>Dave
>>
>
>
>

Bay Area Dave wrote:
> Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans. Doesn't anybody have a
> clue of what THEY want to make, rather than copying someone else's
> ideas? I'm constantly amazed at the things people ask for plans for.
> They even PAY for plans! The fun in building something for me is coming
> up with a design, and then implementing it. If I said I was as painter,
> I sure as heck wouldn't get a paint by numbers kit and just paint within
> the lines. That's NOT a hobby. OR is it?? Am I all wet?? Do I have the
> wrong idea about what woodworking is about?
>
> This little rant is designed NOT to hurt anyone's feelings: I JUST WANT
> TO START A DIALOG ON THE SUBJECT, AS I JUST DON'T GET IT!
>
> Perhaps the reason that people need plans is they can't think in three
> dimensions?? Is that it?
>
> Dave
>
>

I have never built directly from others plans but look at a
lot of them and have learned a lot that way. However, if I
ever did run across a plan that was exactly what I wanted, I
wouldn't hesitate to use it.

That said, I usually do work from plans, my own CADD plans.
Not a lot of detail, but the sizes, joint design and cut
sheets get worked out ahead.


The important thing is the the individual hobbyist is doing
what they want and getting satisfaction out of it.

Rico


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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I'll second that... It was easy to tell that someone was trying
unsuccessfully to redo a Fleetwood Mac song. And also entertainers are for
entertainment, absolutely not a source of usable or credible information.

Plans are the three "Rs" of woodworking. They are the distilled experience
of their creator and generations of woodworkers before. You're using
someone's plans even if you don't place a drawing on a board to guide you,
the only difference is the paper they're rendered on. The principle is
called vicarious experience - education.

BTW, if you don't make a plan, at least to note basic dimensions, you're
going to have a lot more things to complain about here - like wasting wood.

"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans. Doesn't anybody have a
> clue of what THEY want to make, rather than copying someone else's
> ideas? I'm constantly amazed at the things people ask for plans for.
> They even PAY for plans! The fun in building something for me is coming
> up with a design, and then implementing it. If I said I was as painter,
> I sure as heck wouldn't get a paint by numbers kit and just paint within
> the lines. That's NOT a hobby. OR is it?? Am I all wet?? Do I have the
> wrong idea about what woodworking is about?
>
> This little rant is designed NOT to hurt anyone's feelings: I JUST WANT
> TO START A DIALOG ON THE SUBJECT, AS I JUST DON'T GET IT!
>
> Perhaps the reason that people need plans is they can't think in three
> dimensions?? Is that it?
>
> Dave
>

Thank You.

John,

No I haven't reached very far up the ladder of expertise. I'm new to
building cabinets. I DID do them without using anyone's plans, but
that's only after a lot of thought, using Excel to get the dimensions
right, and thinking about what I wanted. My workbench and cabinets are
simple affairs; had I a complex project, my limited ideas would fail me
and I'd need much assistance.

I wasn't condemning anyone for painting by numbers. It was the first
thing I thought of as an analogy. It's been pointed out by several
folks that it was a poor one. I used it in the mistaken belief that
following along with a plan offered no creativity or sense of
accomplishment. That was my mistaken idea. I get it now.

Let me share something: Years ago I built a 25" TV, and o'scope, and a
couple of other electronic testers. I didn't feel a whole lot of sense
of accomplishment because they were all kits. I followed page after
page of detailed instructions in order to build those things. So I
related that feeling of lack of accomplishment to the use of plans while
woodworking. Instead of mentioning the kit building, I thought of paint
by numbers first...

Also I recognize that everyone has their own skill set. I was wondering
out loud if the need to follow plans was due to a lack of 3D thinking.
That's not a character flaw. Now I see that the "need" is not usually a
"need"; but a convenience, a tool. As I've mentioned to other posters
this morning, I have seen the error in my thinking!

and thank you for contributing to this very interesting thread.

dave

John McCoy wrote:
snip
> (you, I gather, have reached a certain level of expertise).
> scratch.
>
> To take your painting example, many of the old masters of the
> renaissance learned by painting over another master's work.
> They weren't born with an inate grasp of color & perspective,
> they learned it. Would you condemn their later work because
> they started with "paint by numbers"?
>
> John

Watch the "step by step" plans. If you forgo good sense to follow them, you
can end up remaking - as I am right now - some of the pieces. Like a fool,
I cut them to measure, not to fit.

"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
During construction of a drawer
> for my Unisaw, I forget to dado for the bottom, which I realized just as
> I glued it together. After much discussion, I ended up Roo gluing and
> stapling the bottom to the underside edge of the drawer sides, since it
> is a light duty drawer. Had I had more step by step plans, I would most
> likely have avoid that snafu. As my projects become more complex, I'm
> gonna hit a wall where I can't conceptualize the "whole package" any
> longer. For the time being I've been able to get away with winging it. :)

Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote in news:qqf1b.211$id.19008623
@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com:

> Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans. Doesn't anybody have a
> clue of what THEY want to make, rather than copying someone else's
> ideas? I'm constantly amazed at the things people ask for plans for.
> They even PAY for plans! The fun in building something for me is coming
> up with a design, and then implementing it. If I said I was as painter,
> I sure as heck wouldn't get a paint by numbers kit and just paint within
> the lines. That's NOT a hobby. OR is it?? Am I all wet?? Do I have the
> wrong idea about what woodworking is about?

I think most people ask for plans because they're not experts
(you, I gather, have reached a certain level of expertise).
Folk starting into something new look for guidance on what
proportions will work, on what joints are appropriate for a
given situation, even for how to make a joint that they haven't
previously made. As you gain more experience, first you take
existing plans and adapt them, as you learn where you can change
dimensions without resulting in ugly proportions or weak
construction; with further experience you can design from
scratch.

To take your painting example, many of the old masters of the
renaissance learned by painting over another master's work.
They weren't born with an inate grasp of color & perspective,
they learned it. Would you condemn their later work because
they started with "paint by numbers"?

John

Dave:

RE: your question...

> Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans. Doesn't anybody have a
> clue of what THEY want to make, rather than copying someone else's
> ideas?

I'll present the other side of the coin. I look at plans in the same
way that I look at a recipe in a cookbook...it's a start. I may not
know anything about making my own pizza crust, but I can look in a
cookbook and find a start. Then, I can add parmesan cheese, garlic,
herbs, etc., to the crust--and make it uniquely mine.

Same with plans. They give me a starting point with instructions on
how to do something I like, and I can then tweak them to make it
unique. The other thing--sometimes I learn some new techniques or
ideas from plans.

Having said all that...now that I'm getting some additional experience
under my belt, I'm starting to do less and less from plans.

I understand your point, and I'm not disagreeing with your POV, just
presenting an alternative.

Jim

p.s.--I've always wondered where in the bay area you are? I live in
Chicago but travel to Alameda about once a month for work. Just
curious. (C:

I always enjoy reading over a set of plans. From my point of view they are
no different from a book or short story. I'm always interested in learning
different methods and styles. How else, except for serving as an apprentice
under an accomplished cabinetmaker, am I going to see how others practice
their craft? I look forward to the plans I get in my Woodsmith
subscription just to get to try a new technique.

Oh, I'm looking for plans right now. I'm interested in library shelves and
built-in china cabinets at the moment. We're going to need about a dozen
Adirondack chairs for our front porch in the spring. And I'm still on the
quest for the perfect fishing rod rack, something stylish and solid that
suits my arts and crafts taste. How else can I see what others have learned
unless I look for plans?

Jim

"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans. Doesn't anybody have a
> clue of what THEY want to make, rather than copying someone else's
> ideas? I'm constantly amazed at the things people ask for plans for.
> They even PAY for plans! The fun in building something for me is coming
> up with a design, and then implementing it. If I said I was as painter,
> I sure as heck wouldn't get a paint by numbers kit and just paint within
> the lines. That's NOT a hobby. OR is it?? Am I all wet?? Do I have the
> wrong idea about what woodworking is about?
>
> This little rant is designed NOT to hurt anyone's feelings: I JUST WANT
> TO START A DIALOG ON THE SUBJECT, AS I JUST DON'T GET IT!
>
> Perhaps the reason that people need plans is they can't think in three
> dimensions?? Is that it?
>
> Dave
>

point taken, Jim. I'm a believer! I've seen the light! (seriously) I'm
not being facetious.

dave

Jeepnstein wrote:

> I always enjoy reading over a set of plans. From my point of view they are
> no different from a book or short story. I'm always interested in learning
> different methods and styles. How else, except for serving as an apprentice
> under an accomplished cabinetmaker, am I going to see how others practice
> their craft? I look forward to the plans I get in my Woodsmith
> subscription just to get to try a new technique.
>
> Oh, I'm looking for plans right now. I'm interested in library shelves and
> built-in china cabinets at the moment. We're going to need about a dozen
> Adirondack chairs for our front porch in the spring. And I'm still on the
> quest for the perfect fishing rod rack, something stylish and solid that
> suits my arts and crafts taste. How else can I see what others have learned
> unless I look for plans?
>
> Jim
>
> "Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans. Doesn't anybody have a
>>clue of what THEY want to make, rather than copying someone else's
>>ideas? I'm constantly amazed at the things people ask for plans for.
>>They even PAY for plans! The fun in building something for me is coming
>>up with a design, and then implementing it. If I said I was as painter,
>>I sure as heck wouldn't get a paint by numbers kit and just paint within
>>the lines. That's NOT a hobby. OR is it?? Am I all wet?? Do I have the
>>wrong idea about what woodworking is about?
>>
>>This little rant is designed NOT to hurt anyone's feelings: I JUST WANT
>>TO START A DIALOG ON THE SUBJECT, AS I JUST DON'T GET IT!
>>
>>Perhaps the reason that people need plans is they can't think in three
>>dimensions?? Is that it?
>>
>>Dave
>>
>
>
>

sheesh! sorry I didn't write what I meant. What I meant was "Further
political arguments will have to be taken up my someone ELSE here on the
Wreck, as I'm already tired of it...bye!" (this time I mean it. :) )

dave

Bay Area Dave wrote:

snip Further arguing politics
> will have to be taken up by someone on the Wreck. I step aside...bye!
> >

I rarely use plans (and it often shows), but I have nothing against them and
don't feel that following as set of plans is in the category of using
"training wheels" or "painting by the numbers" at all.

AAMOF, it often takes more discipline and skill to follow a set of plan than
to bumble off on some tangent, taking shortcuts that don't do the
project.justice.

I often see a furniture project that I want, or am asked to build, where
nothing needs to be changed. If good plans are available, it often means I
can build the item more efficiently, with less waste, and in less time by
using them.

That said, you need not be a slave to a set of plans ... some of the better
classic furniture plans were drawn up in an age when there were not as many
choices with regard to joinery and tools, so departure from, but remaining
in the spirit of the design is often desirable.

Not to mention, that with hardwood prices continually rising, more
self-styled 'designers with no plans' will likely begin to view standing on
the shoulders of those who came before them as a wise move.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/16/03


"Bay Area Dave" wrote in message
> Thanks to Ed, Micheal and Jester99
>
> So what you have all said is that looking at plans will spark an idea,
> like looking up reference material in a book or magazine article.
> That's something I can relate to as I have a few books on woodworking,
> finishing, etc.

Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> David, David, David! You are getting your panties in a bunch for
> nothing. I didn't denigrate my neighbor. I was TRYING to relay the
> fact here (not to his face) that he hadn't really BUILT the object he
> was showing off, other than the carcass. So the visible quality,
> materials, effort, and form wasn't his. Do you get MY point? If he had
> said "I assembled this from parts", I'd have no quarrel with that
> statement. Otherwise he exhibited misplaced pride. Are you following
> me now, Dave?
>
> dave
>

Dave,

I think David was pointing out that your definition of building
something is different than your neighbors. IMO this is a given.
FWIW I wouldn't claim to have "built" a cabinet if I bought the drawer
face and doors without at least a qualification.

Being in the middle of a large cabinet project right now, I can tell
you that the doors are the part of the project that shows your
woodworking skills, the carcasses are just box building and can hide a
multitude of sins that would be unacceptable for the doors and
drawers. And you should see the sins I have committed :-)

-Chris

Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<%[email protected]>...
> Thanks to Ed, Micheal and Jester99
>
> So what you have all said is that looking at plans will spark an idea,
> like looking up reference material in a book or magazine article.

Exactly!

I just finished building a console to hold a portable TV for our
minivan. I built it without plans entirely from my own head, on the
fly, changing the design several times midway in the project as I came
up with better methods - sort of a learn-as-you-go process. It's just
3 pieces of wood, a base and two clamping pieces that hold the TV to
the base and the base to the van seat. I wanted something simple and
quick and that's what I got.

However now that I have it built I already have plans to build another
one. This time I am going to sketch it out first, but even given more
time the first time I don't think I could have come up with this
design - I needed to work through the first one and see the results to
see where I could improve. Had I viewed someone else's plans first
though I might have come up with something better the first time.
This is why I like to see plans. My brain seems to work better this
way, but your mileage may vary.


-Chris

I'll put it on APBW


"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Heck yeah! and how much for a measured drawing, if I like it? APBW OR
APBF?
>
> dave
>
> Leon wrote:
>
> > I can post a picture of an Oak and Walnut panel desk that I built 18
years
> > ago if you need inspiration..
> >
> > "Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >
> >>To all who responded:
> >>
> >>I appreciate your thoughtful responses. Truly. I sort of thought my
> >>opinion on the subject was askew; you've all helped to make me less
> >>reticent to search for plans for my next project; an oak desk to replace
> >>a metal Hon desk in my study. It can't be very big, and I'm over 6
> >>feet, so it'll have to be a bit higher than normal. See, I'm already
> >>thinking of modifications! :)
> >>
> >>dave
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>

WOW! It's Beauty-Ful! I want nearly the same thing, except for size I
can only have one bank of drawers. I recognize the AT&T 6300. My first
PC in 1985 for $2,500 with a 20 Meg (Not Gig) hard drive. A true POS!
Monochrome, no mouse, no windows. but it got my feet wet using a PC and
I learned to create R:Base programs, which ended up getting me a job or
two after I left the auto repair world.

Did you also make that chair? How did you make the top; is it glued up
narrow oak?

VERRRRY NICE!


dave

Leon wrote:

> I posted that desk pic. on apbw
>
> "Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>true...I never said I had all the answers! :)
>>
>>dave
>>
>>Leon wrote:
>>
>>
>>>With that question, perhaps now you can understand why some people
>
> wondered
>
>>>why a woodworker would buy a router cabinet rather than build one...
>
> ;~)
>
>>>I built 2 but bought my last one...
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

Rico,

you are absolutely right on. Everyone has his (or her) special reason
for indulging in this hobby. One of my reasons is that it's fun to
fabricate things. That's why I especially like working on the router
table. The flip side is I get bored if I have to make too many of the
same things. I'm not yet into Neandering, but I might dabble in it
later on. I don't have any Neander tools yet, unless you count one very
lousy Crapsman chisel I picked up over 25 years ago.

I use Excel to help with measurements related to dados and rabbets. I
don't own a CADD program, but I can imagine how helpful that must be.

dave



Rico wrote:
snip
>
> The important thing is the the individual hobbyist is doing
> what they want and getting satisfaction out of it.
>
> Rico
>
>
> -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

On 22 Aug 2003 13:09:49 -0700, [email protected] (David Hall)
wrote:

>So, I assume that you have that forge all fired up to make the hinges
>for your next cabinet?

I'm casting the bronze bails for some drawer pulls. Does that count ?

I have absolutely no problem with someone buying hardware. If you want
to call yourself a "woodworker", then why should this require you to
do the metalwork on a completed piece as well ?

Personally I make things like this:
http://codesmiths.com/shed/furniture/airchair.htm
Now I made almost none of this piece - that's rather the point in
"found materials".

Laz,

What's a shoji screen, if I may ask?

dave

Lazarus Long wrote:

> On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 03:03:10 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>>"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans. Doesn't anybody have a
>>>clue of what THEY want to make, rather than copying someone else's
>>>ideas?
>>
>>Plans are like training wheels. OK for a spin or two, but you'll never
>>learn how to ride unless you take them off.
>>
>>I bought a couple of sets of plans to learn from, but changed dimensions,
>>changed shapes, etc, to suit my needs and my taste. I've also take a note
>>pad and tape measure to the store.
>>
>>The projects I'm most proud of are the ones that came from my head. Plans
>>though, can give some ideas on what type of joints or materials to use in
>>certain situations. They are a learning took, just like books and reading
>>this NG.
>>Ed
>>[email protected]
>>http://pages.cthome.net/edhome
>>
>>
>
>
> Like Ed, I think plans can be training wheels. Or a good starting
> point for your own creation.
>
> The most satisfying thing I've built is one completely dreamt up by
> me, two pairs of sliding shoji screens for use as a window treatment.

Why JOAT, have I elicited your longest ever post? :) Thank you very
much for taking your time to enlighten me as to the value of collecting,
reviewing, and possibly even WORKING from plans.

> I'm constantly amazed at the things people ask for plans for.
>
> You didn't give any examples.

ok...TS sled is ONE example...but in light of my "enlightenment" I
shouldn't be amazed. As I said at the onset, I just "didn't get it".
Now I can see their purpose, which can be different for each person, or
different to the same person, depending on their current needs. I was
using tunnel vision, thinking that plans were like following
instructions on putting together a Heathkit. Now I get it!

> They even PAY for plans!
>
> And? I occassionally pay for plans too. Does thst make me a bad
> person?

Absolutely not, nor was I implying such. Refer back to my previous answer.

>
> And, if you still don't get it, the Woodworking Gods have informed
> me that I am not here to elucidate you, and not to worry about it.

ah, but I DO get it!...Now it's time for me to read the other responses
following yours.

Happy plans to you! :)

dave




Jack-of-all-trades - JOAT wrote:

> Fri, Aug 22, 2003, 2:42am (EDT+4) [email protected] (Bay Area Dave)
> doesn't get it:
> Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans.
>
> I don't. But, a lot of people ask because they are too idle to
> look for themselves, or believe their time is "too valuable" to spend
> looking for plans. And, some are probably not aware of how to look for
> plans.
>
> Doesn't anybody have a clue of what THEY want to make, rather than
> copying someone else's ideas?
>
> Well, yes, they do, that's why they're asking for plans for
> something. I wouldn't call it "copying someone else's ideas" tho.
> Someone just starting out would usually be better off following someone
> else's plans.
>
> Before your time here, but, as I've said before, some people just
> prefer using plans. Someone else's plans, that is. Even if they have
> the experience and knowledge to draft professional quality plans of
> their own. They just like to work from plans. I would say people like
> that know what they want to make.
>
> I'm constantly amazed at the things people ask for plans for.
>
> You didn't give any examples.
>
> They even PAY for plans!
>
> And? I occassionally pay for plans too. Does thst make me a bad
> person?
>
> The fun in building something for me is coming up with a design, and
> then implementing it.
>
> It is for some people, not all. See above. Most of the time I
> work from no plans, maybe some measurements, other times a rough sketch
> or two. Once in a blue moon I make up a more complete set of plans for
> something. I occassionally work with other people' plans, but seldom
> don't change somehing, when I do.
>
> If I said I was as painter, I sure as heck wouldn't get a paint by
> numbers kit and just paint within the lines. That's NOT a hobby. OR is
> it??
>
> Well, if you call yourself a painter, have a truck, ladders, and a
> couple of helpers, then no, I would say that's NOT a hobby. But, if you
> just paint your house every year, I would say it's a hobby.
>
> Am I all wet?? Do I have the wrong idea about what woodworking is about?
>
> Yes. Yes. Sounds like you're trying too hard to make it all black
> and white. Things are seldom just black and white. Usually some black,
> some white, separated by a big grey (or gray) patch.
>
>
> This little rant is designed NOT to hurt anyone's feelings:
>
> You hurt my feelings anyway. LMAO
>
> I JUST WANT TO START A DIALOG ON THE SUBJECT
>
> Yep, realized that right from the start.
> , AS I JUST DON'T GET IT!
>
> So you say. So what? It boils down to, different strokes for
> different folks.
>
> Perhaps the reason that people need plans is they can't think in three
> dimensions?? Is that it?
>
> Nope. I can think in three dimensions, sometimes four. And, I
> still buy plans once in awhile. Plans good. Especially printed plans,
> so you can hold them and look at them. Some plans are for just
> dreamin'. I've got some plans stuck away, I pull 'em out once in
> awhile, just to look at. They're for things I know I will never make,
> just for dreaming about. Hell, some of them are so damn complicated I
> probably couldn't actually make them, even if I started tomorrow. So
> what? Some things are like that, doesn't detract a bit. Those are the
> things you don't tell people about them, because you don't need somebody
> telling you, "You'll never make one of those". I have some other plans,
> that I hope to build one day, a more realistic form of dreams.
> Sometimes you can tell people about thos, sometimes not. Then there are
> a few plans, that once I get a some personal things settled, I intend to
> start on. This will be dreams realized. These plans you can usually
> tell people about. But, you'll probably still get some idiot telling
> you, "You can't make one of those". Those are the people you tell, "Up
> yours". You gotta have dreams, some you know you will never do, some
> you at least kow are possible, and some you know you can do, and will
> do.
>
> Besides, plans are always fun to look at, for me anyway, any kind
> of plans. The plans for the Spruce Goose for example, I have no
> interesting in flying anything more complex than a kite, but enjoyed the
> Spruce Goose plans. Didn't save a copy, because that isn't my thing.
> And, I'm one of those people who aren't young, and know everything. I'm
> old enough to know I don't know everything, never will, don't care, and
> still trying to learn as much as I can. Amazing the new ideas you can
> get from someone else's plans, sometime's it just copying an idea, other
> times it's inspiration for something a little different.
>
> Plans are good. Besides finding plans on the web, last time I
> cheked, I have more woodworking books (not including magazines) the
> county library. And still pretty much wing it as far as plans go It's
> all about enjoying it.
>
> And, if you still don't get it, the Woodworking Gods have informed
> me that I am not here to elucidate you, and not to worry about it.
>
> JOAT
> If we're all God's children, what's so special about Jesus?
>
> Life just ain't life without good music. - JOAT
> Web Page Update 20 Aug 2003. Some tunes I like.
> http://community-2.webtv.net/Jakofalltrades/SOMETUNESILIKE/
>

On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 21:29:56 GMT, Lazarus Long <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Rice paper is simply the traditional name for it.

Only by gaijin

On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 19:22:56 +0100, Andy Dingley
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 08:57:45 -0500, Lazarus Long <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>In my case I used
>>artificial rice paper from Highland Hardware.
>
>It's not "rice" paper though (pet peeve) Japan has a huge paper
>making tradition, and very little of it is made from rice straw fibre.
>Much of it is mulberry.
>
>>Jay Van Arsdale has written a book on shoji construction.
>
>Toshio Odate's is better.

Rice paper is simply the traditional name for it. Some shoji are made
to have the paper changed annually. I did not want that in mine, so I
used artificial.

With that question, perhaps now you can understand why some people wondered
why a woodworker would buy a router cabinet rather than build one... ;~)

I built 2 but bought my last one...

On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 08:57:45 -0500, Lazarus Long <[email protected]>
wrote:

>In my case I used
>artificial rice paper from Highland Hardware.

It's not "rice" paper though (pet peeve) Japan has a huge paper
making tradition, and very little of it is made from rice straw fibre.
Much of it is mulberry.

>Jay Van Arsdale has written a book on shoji construction.

Toshio Odate's is better.

On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 02:42:30 GMT, Bay Area Dave <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans. <snip>
>I'm constantly amazed at the things people ask for plans for.<snip>
>If I said I was as painter,
>I sure as heck wouldn't get a paint by numbers kit and just paint within
>the lines. That's NOT a hobby. OR is it?? Am I all wet??

Yes. Think "gray." Not everything is Black and White. See below.

> Do I have the wrong idea about what woodworking is about?

No, but, (to use your analogy), you do have a tendency to assume that
Rembrandt and Picasso were born masters of their art. They weren't.
They had to be taught, they studied and copied others' work in order
to learn their craft before they developed their own artistic style.

Buying and making from plans is a valid way of "learning the craft."
The "art of creation" comes after.

Very, _very_ few people are born with the talent to do anything at a
level of mastery. So as romantic as the notion sounds-- that wood
workers here should just build what they want to-- it isn't very
practical. The worst you get by winging it is a horrible mess of both
materials and wasted time, and the very best you can hope for by just
"seeing what happens if I try THIS(!!!)" is something that _might_
pass as....

...."studio furniture." ;>

M2c, ymmv, etc...
Michael Baglio
Chapel Hill

On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 02:42:30 +0000, Bay Area Dave wrote:

This is a pretty narrow and egocentric view to take.

> Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans. Doesn't anybody have a
> clue of what THEY want to make, rather than copying someone else's
> ideas?

I know what I want to make, but I don't know how. Not yet, anyway. And
sometimes I just want to make SOMETHING and don't know how. I'm just
getting started in woodworking. The first thing I did was build a cheap
workbench, and I used my leftover materials to build a low assembly table.
I got the workbench plans off the Interweb (har) and I drafted the plans
for my assembly table on my own.

> I'm constantly amazed at the things people ask for plans for.

Like?

> They even PAY for plans!

So?

> The fun in building something for me is coming
> up with a design, and then implementing it.

Not everybody has the know-how to draft quality plans that they can
follow. I've done 4 years of hand drafting and CAD, am a decent artist,
and I still can't just whip up plans to whatever I want. What I can do,
though, is measure the area I want to place a piece in and go find plans
for a piece that has the look I want and adjust them to fit my space. Why
re-invent the wheel? Why go to all the hassle of drawing up plans when
somebody else may have drafted exactly what I want?

> If I said I was as painter,
> I sure as heck wouldn't get a paint by numbers kit and just paint within
> the lines.

I don't like this analogy. It doesn't take any knowledge, skill,
experience, or even any real tools to follow a paint-by-number kit.
Suppose you were a painter, however, and masterfully replicated Monet's _Le
bateau atelier_. Would you then be willing to say that you've done
nothing and your painting isn't a hobby because you just copied somebody
else's idea? I doubt it.

> That's NOT a hobby. OR is it??

Anything you do on a semi-regular basis to pass the time could be
considered a hobby, in my opinion.

> Am I all wet?? Do I have the
> wrong idea about what woodworking is about?

Yes, you do. You're mixing woodworking with design. You don't have to be
a masterful woodworking to design a piece. You don't have a design a
piece to be a masterful woodworking. I think most people learn how to do
both at the same time, but certainly many people, especially newer folks
like me, probably lack enough skill/knowledge in either discipline to
design what we want to build. It's also possible that people just want
plans to get an idea of what kind of joints to use, what type of wood
looks good, veneers, what order to do things in, the name of the router
bit to use, etc, etc.

> This little rant is designed NOT to hurt anyone's feelings: I JUST WANT
> TO START A DIALOG ON THE SUBJECT, AS I JUST DON'T GET IT!

Well, my feelings aren't hurt, but you do come across as a bit
self-righteous. Not everybody does it your way, so you are openly
questioning whether or not they're even "real" woodworkers?

> Perhaps the reason that people need plans is they can't think in three
> dimensions?? Is that it?

MANY people have this problem. MANY MANY MANY people. You need only
witness how many people can easily cruise through a year of
two-dimensional math in college and just get crucified when they reach the
second year and have to do three-variable calculus. But I think many
people just lack the time, training, expertise, or desire to draft their
own plans, especially if they think there's a good chance that somebody
else had the same idea they had and they don't feel like re-inventing the
wheel.

Just my input on it the topic, as a complete neophyte.

On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 16:07:30 +0000, Bay Area Dave wrote:

> Ben,
> funny you began your post with "narrow and egocentric" view. I used
> somewhat the same description of myself earlier. I hope you realize
> that I crafted the OP to be provocative. I expecting to be flamed,
> actually, but thankfully everyone that has responded has done a superb
> job of detailing that plans are useful in many ways.

I wasn't flaming or attacking, just letting you know how your question
came across to me.

>
> Yup, I am mixing (in my thinking) woodworking with design, as relates to
> woodworking as a hobby. That's why I was looking for comments on the
> practice of using plans. From many of the replies I can now see that a
> plan can be like a recipe that you spice up. a starting point. well
> engineered joinery. I'm getting it, man, I'm GETTING it!

Are you trying to claim that somebody on a newsgroup learned something by
reading it? Impossible! :)

>
> Yes, I know I sounded self-righteous. I expected that response. I was
> playing devil's advocate in order to prompt discussion. The tone I took
> was " I don't get it. why are you guys doing this? doesn't make sense
> to me. plans aren't needed. why spend money on them?" Now I've gotten
> a more clear understanding of the value of using a plan, or maybe just
> culling some ideas from one, to incorporate into our own creation,
> thereby saving time, using proper joinery, or adding design elements
> that otherwise would have been lacking, or misproportioned.

Plus some of us just don't know how to build something without some
step-by-step instructions. I followed a plan to build my work bench but
using that knowledge, I was able to draft my own plans for an assembly
table and put it together without assistance. Plans can be a learning
tool. I didn't learn calculus by sitting down deriving the Fundamental
Theorom on my own. Isaac Newton did that and somebody else taught me,
step by step, how to use it.

> and to answer your question about what I'm amazed people ask for plans
> for: a sled. I gave my .02 to a recent thread on sleds, and I believe
> that the OP understood my response that HIS sled needs to be dimensioned
> for HIS needs, rather than a one size fits all strategy.

I wouldn't know how to build a sled. :) I'd go get plans, adjust the
measurements, but otherwise basically follow them.

> I wasn't trying
> to be either rude or unhelpful; quite the contrary, sometimes it's good
> to push someone to think a little more about the reason for building a
> shop aid, such as a TS sled, BEFORE they blindly follow someone else's
> design. When they ask how big it should be, wouldn't you tell them to
> think about what they plan on cutting with it?

Yeah, I agree with you here for sure. When I wanted to build my
workbench, I found four or five sets of plans. One just used 2x6's for
the surface and I didn't like that. For one, they're never straight and
for two, there'll be cracks in them that dust and crap will fall into. I
kept shopping around until I found something closer to what I wanted, and
even then I changed the height of it to fit my physical size.

> I'm not sure it doesn't take some skill to paint by numbers. My
> attempts at it as I child were atrocious. The final result always
> looked like hell! :)

Yeah, same here, but my point was that the paint-by-numbers analogy isn't
very good. You hit on this earlier, but basically it comes to knowing how
to build something and knowing how to design something. I could make a
design for a bookcase that looks great, build it, put four books on it and
have the shelves collapse because I used the wrong kind of joint, wrong
kind of wood, or any other number of things that goes wrong. You may have
the know-how to avoid those kinds of mistakes, but not everybody does. I
almost built my workbench out of yellow pine until somebody told me to use
a less brittle wood. I didn't know pine was brittle, I'm just starting
out.

Brett,

Thanks so much for contributing to this thread and answering in such
detail. I may have to start Googling thru JOAT'S many plans before I
start building my office desk, which should be my next project. I agree
it's silly to reinvent the wheel.

dave

Brett A. Thomas wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> writes:
>
>>This little rant is designed NOT to hurt anyone's feelings: I JUST WANT
>>TO START A DIALOG ON THE SUBJECT, AS I JUST DON'T GET IT!
>
>
> Dave,
>
> Just my limited experiences:
>
> I've built four major things from my own designs and two major things
> from plans.
>
> The first thing I ever built was a shop table for my planer. I didn't
> have much else working, yet, so it's just screwed together and is
> rickety. I designed it myself, though. Wish I'd known about half-lap
> joints at the time. Maybe a plan would've helped.
>
> The second thing I ever built was a table for my son, of my own
> design. I didn't get a plan because it seemed to be to be very
> straightforward. I looked at a number of other children's tables to
> get the basic dimensions, and designed a big, heavy library table with
> mortise and tenon jointery - but sized for a two year old. I'm very
> proud of it.
>
> The third thing I ever built was my son's bed. I looked for plans as
> a basis because there was a lot about making a bed I didn't want to
> learn by messing up $250 in cherry. I had no idea how to distribute
> the loads, how big it should be relative to the mattress, or what
> knock-down jointery system to use. I got _The Bed Book_ and
> discovered that the first bed in it was exactly what the bed I wanted
> to build. I changed the design not one iota. I'm also very proud of
> that bed - while the design is not mine, I did select the wood, mill
> it and select and implement the finish. If I do say so myself, it's
> very pretty.
>
> The fourth thing I ever built was some wall-mounted cabinets for my
> shop. I designed them myself. One of them is in the process of
> falling apart. I didn't do a dado for the backs, I just glued and
> nailed them on, and that wasn't sufficient for the stresses. I wish
> I'd spent more time looking at plans. Hopefully I'll be able to
> salvage the materials.
>
> The fifth thing I ever built was an enourmous (6' x 2 1/2') planter
> for SWMBO. I designed it primarily to skimp on materials while
> allowing for a lot of wood movement while not actually doing any
> complicated jointery so that I could move on to a project I really
> wanted to do. Between you and me I realized after it was about 90%
> complete that, if you tried to pick it up in the most obvious way
> while it was full of dirt that it was going to fall apart, so I
> reinforced it with a bunch of metal L brackets. Yuck. I'm not very
> proud of it, although I am happy with how it looks. I looked at a lot
> of plans, and got a lot of ideas about how to design the drainage
> system for it, but I never really found plans that were exactly what
> I wanted, so I designed my own. I'm a big fan of the saying,
> "Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want." This
> project was good experience.
>
> Finally, I'm building a bench along one wall loosely based upon Norm's
> "Miter Bench and Storage." It's not exactly the same, but it was very
> convenient, for such a large project, to have someone else provide a
> materials and cut list. I'm also paying a lot more attention to how
> to do things like build drawers so I don't make similar errors to what
> happened with the cabinets.
>
> To me, there's two basic reasons to use plans. First of all, I know
> WAY more about woodworking than any other person I know.
> Unfortunately, that's not saying much. Rather than teaching myself
> how to design at the same time I teach myself craftmanship, building
> from someone else's plans allows me to focus a lot of time on the
> craft of building and not sweat about design details.
>
> The second reason is that the plan is available and is exactly what I
> need. Most of my woodworking at this time has a utilitarian base -
> I'm building furniture and fixtures I need. If I see plans that are
> for almost exactly what I want, it's a definite time-saver to use them
> as a starting point. Since I'm researching plans anyway to get an
> idea of what the design elements are to consider, if I find exactly
> The Plan, why try to recreate it from scratch?
>
> Do I hope to some day be able to just sit down and whip out a design
> for any project? Absolutely. But I guess in some ways this lets me
> apprentice myself to people like Jeff Miller or Norm Abram. The
> master designs, and I implement, and in implementing try to understand
> the design better.
>
> -BAT

Isn't paint by numbers fun?

If I have to whip out a quick project, like a stand for a shop tool or some
built in cabinets to conceal some clutter, I'll find a plan. If I am
building something for someone else and want to be special, like a desk for
my daughter or a jewelry box for my wife, then I design from the ground up.

Montyhp

"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans. Doesn't anybody have a
> clue of what THEY want to make, rather than copying someone else's
> ideas? I'm constantly amazed at the things people ask for plans for.
> They even PAY for plans! The fun in building something for me is coming
> up with a design, and then implementing it. If I said I was as painter,
> I sure as heck wouldn't get a paint by numbers kit and just paint within
> the lines. That's NOT a hobby. OR is it?? Am I all wet?? Do I have the
> wrong idea about what woodworking is about?
>
> This little rant is designed NOT to hurt anyone's feelings: I JUST WANT
> TO START A DIALOG ON THE SUBJECT, AS I JUST DON'T GET IT!
>
> Perhaps the reason that people need plans is they can't think in three
> dimensions?? Is that it?
>
> Dave
>

I did nt make the chair... Sam's Club.. The top was a preglued panel made
up of hundreds of pieces of wood. Cheaper to buy it this way than to
actually buy the wood and make it my self.