On Tuesday, April 19, 2016 at 3:32:03 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 19, 2016 at 3:08:14 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrot=
e:
> > Assuming ceramic tile, the only correct way to install it is the follow=
ing.
> >=20
> > Take everything down to bare plywood. Solid plywood. Install felt pap=
er, tar paper, or that rubber membrane. Run it a few inches up the walls. =
Mortar, cement concrete backer board to the floor. Cement the tiles to th=
e backer board.
> >=20
> > I don't believe in working with prior jobs. I prefer to start from scr=
atch and do it right. Don't work around other stuff. Take it all out down=
to the bare bones and do everything correctly. No compromises. Usually c=
heaper and easier to do it right the first time.
>=20
> If I may, one clarification (btw, I agree with all you wrote), make sure =
the plywood is thick enough based on floor joist spacing...I have seen wher=
e some tile specs call for full 1" thick substrate to prevent flexing/crack=
ing...
For some reason, the joist spacing in my bathroom was screwed up back in th=
e=20
mid-50's when the house was built. 16" OC joists, running from the door wal=
l
to the outside wall, except for right in front of the sink. 20" OC under
what was probably the heaviest trafficked area of the bathroom. It was no
surprise that that is where the 1" tiles starting popping first. The mortar
bed in front of the sink must have flexed enough over the years until it
finally failed.
(BTW the subfloor is 1 x 6 T&G pine, not plywood.)
When I redid the bathroom, I added extra support in front of the sink to=20
eliminate any future problems.
On Monday, April 18, 2016 at 9:32:03 AM UTC-4, Michael wrote:
> I know this is a woodworking forum, but a lot of you guys are multi-skill=
ed. I need to put tile in the bathroom and have heard yes and no to putting=
tile on linoleum. Apparently, there are products that make it possible, bu=
t others say the foundation is just too soft. What's the verdict?
From http://homeguides.sfgate.com/need-remove-linoleum-before-laying-tile-6=
6961.html
Underlayment
New tile should not be laid directly on top of the old linoleum, unless the=
linoleum is well-adhered to a cement subfloor. Tile needs a firm, hard, in=
flexible substrate. If your linoleum is installed over an old wood floor, a=
new substrate will need to be installed over the linoleum. Vinyl will requ=
ire a smooth plywood underlayment, while hard tiles will require a cement b=
ackerboard underlayment. This new underlayment will need to be installed fi=
rst with mortar, then with screws that must penetrate the old linoleum. If =
your linoleum contains asbestos, these screws must be installed by a profes=
sional who can take steps to prevent the asbestos from becoming airborne wh=
en the tiles are penetrated.
On Tuesday, April 19, 2016 at 2:51:52 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 19, 2016 at 3:08:14 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrot=
e:
> > Assuming ceramic tile, the only correct way to install it is the follow=
ing.
> >=20
> > Take everything down to bare plywood. Solid plywood. =20
>=20
> Assuming the subfloor is plywood. My subfloors are 1 x 6 T&G pine.
I would install plywood over the 1x6 boards. You do not want the subfloor =
to move. Plywood is pretty stable. 1x6 not so much.
>=20
> > Install felt paper, tar paper, or that rubber membrane. Run it a few i=
nches up the walls.=20
>=20
> Assuming the walls are open. My plaster walls came down to the top of the=
=20
> tile. No way I was opening up the bottom of the walls in order to run any=
thing
> a few inches up the wall.
>=20
I was thinking of showers and tiling the floor and walls. You want the wat=
erproof felt paper, other membrane, to go up the walls. Walls do not need =
to be waterproof since they get wet but do not have water on top of them co=
nstantly. For tiling your kitchen floor, no need to waterproof the walls.
> > Mortar, cement concrete backer board to the floor. Cement the tiles to=
the backer board.
>=20
> Well, I don't know if "*Cement* the tiles to the backer board" is the cor=
rect=20
> phrase, but yes, backer board should be used.
>=20
> (My old tile sat on a 2" thick bed of mortar. One that starts going bad,
> the floor is done for.)
>=20
Mortar bed is the concrete backer board. Mortar, cement, the gray stuff yo=
u mix up to stick the tiles to the backer board. Not sure about mortar bed=
s. Do you lay the wet mortar bed down and then place the tiles on the mort=
ar bed before it dries?
On 4/18/2016 8:31 AM, Michael wrote:
> I know this is a woodworking forum, but a lot of you guys are multi-skilled. I need to put tile in the bathroom and have heard yes and no to putting tile on linoleum. Apparently, there are products that make it possible, but others say the foundation is just too soft. What's the verdict?
Normally, and we do this all the time, I'm going to demo the linoleum,
without question.
Take into consideration the cost of your new tile.
Is it expensive enough, including installation, to justify
replacing/repairing any future problems?
How convenient would it be, including keeping spare tile on hand in that
event?
Keep in mind, my main consideration is a solid, long lasting job for a
client, without the inconvenience of possible callbacks for both of us.
If it is DIY, YMMV ...
--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
https://www.facebook.com/eWoodShop-206166666122228
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
On Tuesday, April 19, 2016 at 3:08:14 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
> Assuming ceramic tile, the only correct way to install it is the followin=
g.
>=20
> Take everything down to bare plywood. Solid plywood. Install felt paper=
, tar paper, or that rubber membrane. Run it a few inches up the walls. M=
ortar, cement concrete backer board to the floor. Cement the tiles to the =
backer board.
>=20
> I don't believe in working with prior jobs. I prefer to start from scrat=
ch and do it right. Don't work around other stuff. Take it all out down t=
o the bare bones and do everything correctly. No compromises. Usually che=
aper and easier to do it right the first time.
If I may, one clarification (btw, I agree with all you wrote), make sure th=
e plywood is thick enough based on floor joist spacing...I have seen where =
some tile specs call for full 1" thick substrate to prevent flexing/crackin=
g...
On Friday, April 22, 2016 at 12:40:46 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 19, 2016 at 2:51:52 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > On Tuesday, April 19, 2016 at 3:08:14 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wr=
ote:
> > > Assuming ceramic tile, the only correct way to install it is the foll=
owing.
> > >=20
> > > Take everything down to bare plywood. Solid plywood. =20
> >=20
> > Assuming the subfloor is plywood. My subfloors are 1 x 6 T&G pine.
>=20
>=20
> I would install plywood over the 1x6 boards. You do not want the subfloo=
r to move. Plywood is pretty stable. 1x6 not so much.
It's been a while, but I (think I) recall adding either plywood or luan=20
over the 1x6 subfloor only to ensure that I brought the height of the=20
finished floor back to where it needed to be.
You can't always just add another layer of subfloor on top of an existing
subfloor, then use cement backer board, then tile and expect that the top
of the floor will end up where you need to be.=20
>=20
> >=20
> > > Install felt paper, tar paper, or that rubber membrane. Run it a few=
inches up the walls.=20
> >=20
> > Assuming the walls are open. My plaster walls came down to the top of t=
he=20
> > tile. No way I was opening up the bottom of the walls in order to run a=
nything
> > a few inches up the wall.
> >=20
>=20
> I was thinking of showers and tiling the floor and walls. You want the w=
aterproof felt paper, other membrane, to go up the walls. Walls do not nee=
d to be waterproof since they get wet but do not have water on top of them =
constantly. For tiling your kitchen floor, no need to waterproof the walls=
.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> > > Mortar, cement concrete backer board to the floor. Cement the tiles =
to the backer board.
> >=20
> > Well, I don't know if "*Cement* the tiles to the backer board" is the c=
orrect=20
> > phrase, but yes, backer board should be used.
> >=20
> > (My old tile sat on a 2" thick bed of mortar. One that starts going bad=
,
> > the floor is done for.)
> >=20
>=20
> Mortar bed is the concrete backer board. Mortar, cement, the gray stuff =
you mix up to stick the tiles to the backer board. =20
Thin-set mortar
> Not sure about mortar beds. Do you lay the wet mortar bed down and=20
> then place the tiles on the mortar bed before it dries?
No, you lay the mortar bed (mud-set, thick-set, etc) and let it cure=20
overnight. You then use a thin-set type adhesive to bond the tile to=20
mortar bed.
In some cases a mortar bed may be a better solution than backer board. It
is easier to level an uneven surface with a mortar bed because you can vary
the thickness, within reason. Yes, there are self-leveling compounds that
can be used before using the backer board but from my reading it seems that
there are certain situations where a mortar bed may be the best solution.
On Friday, April 22, 2016 at 2:10:51 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> It's been a while, but I (think I) recall adding either plywood or luan=
=20
> over the 1x6 subfloor only to ensure that I brought the height of the=20
> finished floor back to where it needed to be.
>=20
> You can't always just add another layer of subfloor on top of an existing
> subfloor, then use cement backer board, then tile and expect that the top
> of the floor will end up where you need to be.=20
>=20
Getting everything to line up is a trick. May need to remove the original =
baseboard and install new plywood. Maybe a couple layers of different thic=
kness. Cement backer board is available in several different thickness too=
. 1/2", 3/8", 1/4" I think. So you may need to layer those as well.
On Tuesday, April 19, 2016 at 3:08:14 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
> Assuming ceramic tile, the only correct way to install it is the followin=
g.
>=20
> Take everything down to bare plywood. Solid plywood. =20
Assuming the subfloor is plywood. My subfloors are 1 x 6 T&G pine.
> Install felt paper, tar paper, or that rubber membrane. Run it a few inc=
hes up the walls.=20
Assuming the walls are open. My plaster walls came down to the top of the=
=20
tile. No way I was opening up the bottom of the walls in order to run anyth=
ing
a few inches up the wall.
> Mortar, cement concrete backer board to the floor. Cement the tiles to t=
he backer board.
Well, I don't know if "*Cement* the tiles to the backer board" is the corre=
ct=20
phrase, but yes, backer board should be used.
(My old tile sat on a 2" thick bed of mortar. One that starts going bad,
the floor is done for.)
>=20
> I don't believe in working with prior jobs. I prefer to start from scrat=
ch and do it right. Don't work around other stuff. Take it all out down t=
o the bare bones and do everything correctly. No compromises. Usually che=
aper and easier to do it right the first time.
On 4/19/2016 3:08 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> Assuming ceramic tile, the only correct way to install it is the following.
>
> Take everything down to bare plywood. Solid plywood. Install felt paper, tar paper, or that rubber membrane. Run it a few inches up the walls. Mortar, cement concrete backer board to the floor. Cement the tiles to the backer board.
>
> I don't believe in working with prior jobs. I prefer to start from scratch and do it right. Don't work around other stuff. Take it all out down to the bare bones and do everything correctly. No compromises. Usually cheaper and easier to do it right the first time.
>
So you don't believe in mounting the tile to the rubber membrane?
I didn't think the membrane required mounting a backer board on top of
it, before laying the tiles.
--
Jeff
On 4/18/2016 9:31 AM, Michael wrote:
> I know this is a woodworking forum, but a lot of you guys are multi-skilled. I need to put tile in the bathroom and have heard yes and no to putting tile on linoleum. Apparently, there are products that make it possible, but others say the foundation is just too soft. What's the verdict?
>
Would help to know what kind of tile, but probably best not to for any
tile. If it is ceramic, I'd take it down to bare wood and put cement
backerboard for the best job. I'd use either epoxy or urethane grout
too. Makes a nice easy to care for floor.
Assuming ceramic tile, the only correct way to install it is the following.
Take everything down to bare plywood. Solid plywood. Install felt paper, =
tar paper, or that rubber membrane. Run it a few inches up the walls. Mor=
tar, cement concrete backer board to the floor. Cement the tiles to the ba=
cker board.
I don't believe in working with prior jobs. I prefer to start from scratch=
and do it right. Don't work around other stuff. Take it all out down to =
the bare bones and do everything correctly. No compromises. Usually cheap=
er and easier to do it right the first time.
On Tuesday, April 19, 2016 at 3:34:26 PM UTC-5, woodchucker wrote:
>=20
> So you don't believe in mounting the tile to the rubber membrane?
> I didn't think the membrane required mounting a backer board on top of=20
> it, before laying the tiles.=20
> --=20
> Jeff
I have not worked with the rubber membrane. Just tar paper and backer boar=
d. But if the rubber membrane acts the same as the tar paper, then you wou=
ld put the backer board over the rubber membrane. Plywood-rubber membrane-=
backer board-cement-tile. Substitute tar paper for rubber membrane. I can=
not imagine how cement would stick to the rubber membrane, or the tar paper=
. So the membrane and tar paper go under the backer board. And the backer=
board is screwed to the plywood through the rubber membrane or tar paper. =
Screws keep the backer board from ever moving. And the cement sticking th=
e tiles to the backer board keep the tiles from ever moving. Can't have ru=
bber membrane anywhere in that mix.
On Mon, 18 Apr 2016 06:31:58 -0700 (PDT)
Michael <[email protected]> wrote:
> that make it possible, but others say the foundation is just too
> soft. What's the verdict?
it depends
budget
deflection
etc
On Fri, 22 Apr 2016 12:10:46 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Friday, April 22, 2016 at 12:40:46 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Tuesday, April 19, 2016 at 2:51:52 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> > On Tuesday, April 19, 2016 at 3:08:14 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
>> > > Assuming ceramic tile, the only correct way to install it is the following.
>> > >
>> > > Take everything down to bare plywood. Solid plywood.
>> >
>> > Assuming the subfloor is plywood. My subfloors are 1 x 6 T&G pine.
>>
>>
>> I would install plywood over the 1x6 boards. You do not want the subfloor to move. Plywood is pretty stable. 1x6 not so much.
>
>It's been a while, but I (think I) recall adding either plywood or luan
>over the 1x6 subfloor only to ensure that I brought the height of the
>finished floor back to where it needed to be.
>
>You can't always just add another layer of subfloor on top of an existing
>subfloor, then use cement backer board, then tile and expect that the top
>of the floor will end up where you need to be.
>
>>
>> >
>> > > Install felt paper, tar paper, or that rubber membrane. Run it a few inches up the walls.
>> >
>> > Assuming the walls are open. My plaster walls came down to the top of the
>> > tile. No way I was opening up the bottom of the walls in order to run anything
>> > a few inches up the wall.
>> >
>>
>> I was thinking of showers and tiling the floor and walls. You want the waterproof felt paper, other membrane, to go up the walls. Walls do not need to be waterproof since they get wet but do not have water on top of them constantly. For tiling your kitchen floor, no need to waterproof the walls.
>>
>>
>>
>> > > Mortar, cement concrete backer board to the floor. Cement the tiles to the backer board.
>> >
>> > Well, I don't know if "*Cement* the tiles to the backer board" is the correct
>> > phrase, but yes, backer board should be used.
>> >
>> > (My old tile sat on a 2" thick bed of mortar. One that starts going bad,
>> > the floor is done for.)
>> >
>>
>> Mortar bed is the concrete backer board. Mortar, cement, the gray stuff you mix up to stick the tiles to the backer board.
>
>Thin-set mortar
>
>> Not sure about mortar beds. Do you lay the wet mortar bed down and
>> then place the tiles on the mortar bed before it dries?
>
>No, you lay the mortar bed (mud-set, thick-set, etc) and let it cure
>overnight. You then use a thin-set type adhesive to bond the tile to
>mortar bed.
>
>In some cases a mortar bed may be a better solution than backer board. It
>is easier to level an uneven surface with a mortar bed because you can vary
>the thickness, within reason. Yes, there are self-leveling compounds that
>can be used before using the backer board but from my reading it seems that
>there are certain situations where a mortar bed may be the best solution.
And in other situations a layer of Schluter Ditra is the way to go.
Over existing vinyl is one situation where Ditra can shine - as long
as the vinyl is well adhered and clean.