One of my guys was sanding a Meganite top, getting ready for delivery
that afternoon when he called me on my cell to tell me that THE SANDER
had quit suddenly. He had already done all the basic checks to see if
he had power everywhere.
I was on a site, I had the Fein with me, so that wasn't going to do
him any good. But the top he was working on, was the final delivery of
a 'whole house' order, so it was important to me to get this resolved.
Did I tell you this was on a Friday?... but you already knew that,
right? <G>
I quickly return to the shop in order to finish with the Fein, then to
go back and finish the seam I was doing at that same house.
I quickly opened the tail of the RO 150 Festool, to see that the
spring had popped on one the brushes stopping the thing dead in its
tracks.
Friday, noon...I'm not completely dead in the water..but I decided
then and there to immediatly order a new set of brushes. I knew there
was a plastic envelope inside the Festool (Systainer) box, which I
thought would have the service department numbers etc.
And there, inside the envelope, taped neatly in a corner, a little
plastic pouch with 2 new brushes.
Got everything done on time, made it to the bank and made the bi-
weekly pay-roll.
Pretty cool, eh?
What are those brushes worth? In this case, a whole lot more than what
they normally sell them for.
Anyway, I thought I'd share something positive.
r--->who gives his customers a neatly finished trivet, made from the
same material as their countertop, with Magic Sponge attached to it.
Somehow that makes the customer happier than with a $ 3000.00
countertop.
On Mar 25, 1:18 pm, "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote:
> One of my guys was sanding a Meganite top, getting ready for delivery
> that afternoon when he called me on my cell to tell me that THE SANDER
> had quit suddenly. He had already done all the basic checks to see if
> he had power everywhere.
> I was on a site, I had the Fein with me, so that wasn't going to do
> him any good. But the top he was working on, was the final delivery of
> a 'whole house' order, so it was important to me to get this resolved.
> Did I tell you this was on a Friday?... but you already knew that,
> right? <G>
> I quickly return to the shop in order to finish with the Fein, then to
> go back and finish the seam I was doing at that same house.
> I quickly opened the tail of the RO 150 Festool, to see that the
> spring had popped on one the brushes stopping the thing dead in its
> tracks.
> Friday, noon...I'm not completely dead in the water..but I decided
> then and there to immediatly order a new set of brushes. I knew there
> was a plastic envelope inside the Festool (Systainer) box, which I
> thought would have the service department numbers etc.
> And there, inside the envelope, taped neatly in a corner, a little
> plastic pouch with 2 new brushes.
> Got everything done on time, made it to the bank and made the bi-
> weekly pay-roll.
> Pretty cool, eh?
>
> What are those brushes worth? In this case, a whole lot more than what
> they normally sell them for.
> Anyway, I thought I'd share something positive.
This still falls under the classification of a Festool gloat, so you
still suck. ;)
> r--->who gives his customers a neatly finished trivet, made from the
> same material as their countertop, with Magic Sponge attached to it.
> Somehow that makes the customer happier than with a $ 3000.00
> countertop.
Lagniappe. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=lagniappe
Those little freebies are received like you are handing them gold.
Knock together _anything_ from the scraps and hand it to them and
they'll be telling their friends about it.
Bagel stores routinely give a bakers dozen - thirteen bagels. Since
it's routine, you hear people say, "Hey! You forgot my free bagel!"
though they never _thank_ the guy for the free bagel every other time
it's given.
R
On Mar 25, 2:42 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> IIRC $920+ tax.
Also called A THOUSAND BUCKS. To paraphrase Larry The Cable Guy "I
don't care who you are, but that is a lot of money right there."...but
dammit, I know they've got a winner there. I hate those sunsabitches,
because they have my number and they keep dialing it.
>And then I was informed that a dust
> collector will not be able to be keep up with the Domino. I wonder if that
> is true or not. Seems a shop vacuum is the tool of choice for this
> situation but again, I wonder.
A good shop vac has a lot more 'pull' than a DC. Guys use the Fein
Turbos as hold-down for smaller CNC routers... a job one would never
trust to a DC. DC is for large volume, like a clean-up after a pillow-
fight. The ShopVac will lift up a bowling ball.
Even though the wattage may read the same, the ratio of current vs
voltage does not. My Fein does a fabulous job on both the Kreg jig and
the biscuit jointer..way better than the 2 HP DC. The Fein, however,
is useless on my planer. It's the fan vs airhose argument in reverse.
>I know choking down the 4" hose limits its
> flow but not so much if the choke is at the tool rather than away from the
> tool.
The displacement of air in a Vac is far more positive than a DC.. the
DC will just cavitate and slap around air. This is going under the
assumption that we're talking a real shop-vac, not one of those 6.5
peak HP (5 amp motor, ohhh yea) from Harbour Fright.
>I still get pretty good flow at the router table, disk sander, and
> spindle sander. I think I'll experiment with my PC plate jointer and see if
> that holds water. The dust port is almost the same size as on the Domino.
A THOUSAND BUCKS, Leon....A THOUSAND BUCKS!!!
LOL
r---> who is looking to find a 'disposable' THOUSAND BUCKS. I also
wonder who the first one is, in here, that's going to drop the g-note.
On Mar 25, 1:42 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> > What are those brushes worth? In this case, a whole lot more than what
> > they normally sell them for.
> > Anyway, I thought I'd share something positive.
>
> > r--->who gives his customers a neatly finished trivet, made from the
> > same material as their countertop, with Magic Sponge attached to it.
> > Somehow that makes the customer happier than with a $ 3000.00
> > countertop.
>
> Cool. I wonder if all the Festools come with that extra set of brushes.
> BTY I got to do the touchy feely thing with the Domino on Friday. No
> testing but I got to see a sample of the joint, pretty impressive.
> Still, it's going to cost a small fortune to get one with a decent
> assortment of tennons. IIRC $920+ tax.
Yep. And shipping because no Festool tools are stock items. All are
ordered especially for that customer. To make that person feel
special. Festool doesn't want any bum with a grand of disposable
income in his pocket walking into the store and taking one of those
special green tools home without proper vetting and going through the
iniation procedure.
And then I was informed that a dust
> collector will not be able to be keep up with the Domino. I wonder if that
> is true or not. Seems a shop vacuum is the tool of choice for this
> situation but again, I wonder.
The official Festool shop vacs work fine with the Domino. And other
Festool tools. I suspect any shop vac would work just fine. Domino
takes the official Festool hose so it would be easiest, if not
cheapest, to get a Festool hose and hook it to whatever shop vac you
choose to use. In one of the various reviews, it was stressed that
some kind of dust collection, via shop vac, is required for the Domino
to work properly. $25 Sears vac would work fine once you got the
right size hose onto it.
I know choking down the 4" hose limits its
> flow but not so much if the choke is at the tool rather than away from the
> tool. I still get pretty good flow at the router table, disk sander, and
> spindle sander. I think I'll experiment with my PC plate jointer and see if
> that holds water. The dust port is almost the same size as on the Domino.
On Mar 25, 9:05 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Actually I could have bought just about any of the equipment back in
> December when he had an open house and the Festool rep brought a supply of
> all the tools.
Leon - I think Woodcraft has them on sale for $660 + $200 for bits.
Scary.
Is anyone here having joint failures or specializing in installations
that would warrant the SPECIFIC use of a Domino? For a G I would have
to join about a lumberyard's worth of lumber to make me happy.
With tools for dowels, loose dowels, full mortising machines, tenon
jigs, 4 - 5 sized of bisquits, router jigs, pocket screws, hammer and
chisels, table saw joints, specialized router table router bits for
joining, and on and on... where does this thing really fit in?
I have not doubt it is a fine tool, but wonder what group of tools it
would have to replace to fit the price tag. I watched the video on
their site, and it looks like the connectors they use are the
highlight. Small, solid, striated to hold the glue, and look like
good quality.
I had a jig plan for a small router that would cut that very same
rounded slot for loose dowels, and then there was that other set of
connectorst that looked like 4 dowels sitting next to each other that
the router would cut the slot for. It certainly wasn't as quick or
elegant as the Domino, but I never used that kind of joint except for
a few projects.
I think of how often that tool would be the >only< solution, or when I
would be in such a hurry that I needed the extra time, and I'm not
seeing a grand for a dedicted, one use tool. Then I saw the bits cost
$50 or so a piece! Then, no generic bisquits! OUCH!
No doubt if I was site building cabinets like we did in the old days I
would have to have one of those when I could afford it. But for field
or shop work... I dunno. What did I miss?
Has anyone seen any joint tests to back up their claims of strength?
Robert
On Mar 26, 8:29 am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Have you seen one in person, touched one, felt its curves,[snip]
Yup... Leon is toast... Tell us how you like it after it shows up in a
couple of days.
*EG*
r
On Mar 25, 10:05 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> > Yep. And shipping because no Festool tools are stock items. All are
> > ordered especially for that customer. To make that person feel
> > special.
>
> That is not correct. My dealer is a stocking dealer. He has several
> sanders in stock and will have the Domino.
I'd have to see it to believe it. A Festool dealer carrying the whole
line of tools you can walk in and buy off the rack? All of them. Not
just one or two of the tools such as a sander like the Rotex or 5" or
6" ROS. Does your dealer carry all three routers in stock and on the
shelf? Rotex and 5" and 6" ROS? All 3 or 4 or 5 shop vacs? Mini,
22, 33, etc.? Both saws, 55 and 75? Both jigsaws, barrel and top
handle? All sizes of guide rails for the saws and routers? Both MFT,
880 and 1080?
Does your Festool dealer stock them like PC or Bosch or DeWalt or
Milwaukee or Makita tools?
>
> Actually I could have bought just about any of the equipment back in
> December when he had an open house and the Festool rep brought a supply of
> all the tools.
Couple years ago a local big store had a grand opening and two Festool
reps were there with almost all of the tools. But it was still test
them and place an order. Not buy them and take them home right there
and then. The local store has most/many of the tools on site for
testing all the time.
On 26 Mar, 13:29, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> It probably replaces all of them except fot the dowel jigs. I know I wold
> probably never use my mortiser and or plate jointer if I had a Domino.
I make picture frames and tray surrounds in 1/2" thick stock, using a
biscuiter. Can't do that on a Domino, as the mortice would be too
wide.
If I made more chairs then I'd use a $1000 Domino with loose tenons.
At present I use some of the fixed machines in the guy over the road's
workshop: an $8000 window / doorframe tenoner and a $1000+ morticer.
I'd buy a Domino _if_ I made more pieces from narrow square stock
where I needed tenons and couldn't use a longer biscuit.
On Mar 26, 5:50 am, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Domino is simply "loose/floating tenon" joinery which testing has shown to
> be roughly equivalent in strength to traditional M & T ... perhaps a shade
> less so, but not enough to be a factor for most applications.
>
> --www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 2/20/07
That makes sense. It looks like this is a really convenient
"beadlock" installation. IIRC, that kind of joinery was pretty
strong.
Robert
On Mar 26, 7:18 am, "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mar 26, 8:29 am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Have you seen one in person, touched one, felt its curves,[snip]
>
> Yup... Leon is toast... Tell us how you like it after it shows up in a
> couple of days.
>
> *EG*
>
> r
On Mar 26, 7:18 am, "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mar 26, 8:29 am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Have you seen one in person, touched one, felt its curves,[snip]
>
> Yup... Leon is toast... Tell us how you like it after it shows up in a
> couple of days.
>
> *EG*
>
> r
Yeah.... he's screwed!
Robert
On Mar 26, 6:29 am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
SNIP
> I think if you were consider ing a "Multico" mortiser and a "Lamelo" >pla=
te jointer that the Domino would be a very good alternative.
Fair. Once you get to that level of quality machine, I would sure
think this one would be in the running. Putting it in that context,
it is a good point.
It is raining here, and my work for today was all outside. So I took
the time to go watch the videos on the Festool site again. It will
adjust exactly as a biscuit machines and will do multiple angles, so
you should be OK addressing compound angles.
Most of the time I do well when reading. I read instructions, prep
sheets, technical information, etc., closely. So of course I read the
FAQs on the machine. Certainly, the Q&As were from them.
1) It brags about using the Domino as a registration device, comparing
it mainly to biscuits. I'll give them that one, but I don't know how
far I would go. The tool cuts one mortise perfectly, but them you cut
an oversize mortise on the other side to allow for "inconsistencies".
How do oversize mortises make better registrations? I haven't ever
used a mechanical fastener to line my work anyway; I use a pencil mark
2) Seems like they are going after the biscuit joiner in a big way.
However, they make it abundantly clear in their literature that they
are comparing their Dominos to crappy biscuits, the ones made from
compressed wood chips. I bought one bag of those on Amazon, and after
seeing so many broken pieces in the bottom of the bag, I threw the all
out.
But it has been so long since I actually looked at a biscuit, I went
out to the shop and pulled out my PC clear container of #20s, and
broke a few. As I thought, all solid wood. While we all know
biscuits are not reknown for their strength, I think it is important
to compare apples to apples. This makes me even more interested in
seeing a strength comparison to other joints. I have NO doubt the
Domino will win in a lot of cases, but by how much?
>From their FAQ:
Q: Do I have to use dust extraction?
A: We strongly recommend it. If dust is not extracted, it will clog
the mortise.
3) Reading all the info, I was surprised to see that they require
powered dust and chip removal. I know a lot of folks here have the
necessary dust/chip removal equipment in their shops, but I know a lot
don't. But I am thinking of dragging this thing out to a job, on
site. To me, hand held, portable tools should be easy to transport
and use. I sure wouldn't be thrilled about loading up this tool and
having to load a shop vac as its required companion. If I am working
in client's parking lot, or on a client's driveway, I don't care where
the dust goes, I simply sweep up at the end of the day as it easier
for me. I don't routinely take a shop vac to the job, although I do
as needed. I am not really up for loading up and bringing out a
complete "system" to put the face on a cabinet, or to join a few
shelves
4) I know this is picky, and maybe like any dedicated machine, "it is
what it is". Again, from their FAQ:
Q: Can I choose my own individual mortise width?
A: The Domino=AE joiner has 3 preset mortise widths that work with the
Domino=AE tenons. It is not possible to cut other mortise widths.
I can't see a grand for a machine that cuts only three sizes of
mortises. I know Festool will think that it has provided all the
popular sizes used today, But for grand, I would like a little
flexibility.
Looks to me though, that this could be a really neat shop tool if you
knew exactly what you were going to do with it. The Taunton video
review that says once you have it, you will be thinking of all kinds
of applications (like cutting a table top holdown!) that you can use
this machine for in your woodworking day. Not me... for a grand plus
a high powered shop vac companion, I will have a gameplan in place and
a specific need to fill before purchasing.
Besides... I just spent $500 on an F'in chainsaw! =3D:0
> Have you seen one in person, touched one, felt its curves, seen the >deta=
ils of all the levers and buttons? Have you picked it up, noticed >how th=
e green and black compliment the silver trim? And don't get me >started o=
n the carrying case. ;~)
Well, I sure got a chuckle out of that one. Nothing wrong with good
old fashioned tool lust.
Please post a review when you have it !!
Robert
On Mar 26, 1:08 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
[snipped for brevity]
You make a lot of good points there.
> 3) Reading all the info, I was surprised to see that they require
> powered dust and chip removal. I know a lot of folks here have the
> necessary dust/chip removal equipment in their shops, but I know a lot
> don't.
The ones that don't, aren't likely in the running to purchase one of
these.
> But I am thinking of dragging this thing out to a job, on
> site. To me, hand held, portable tools should be easy to transport
> and use. I sure wouldn't be thrilled about loading up this tool and
> having to load a shop vac as its required companion. If I am working
> in client's parking lot, or on a client's driveway, I don't care where
> the dust goes, I simply sweep up at the end of the day as it easier
> for me.
I think the requirement is for the vac to clear out the chips. I don't
think it is about the mess it makes. My biscuit joiners make much
cleaner cuts if the blades aren't re-grinding chaff... the same thing
holds for the Kreg jig. That Domino bit operates in a very confined
area, spiral cutter or not.
>
> 4) I know this is picky, and maybe like any dedicated machine, "it is
> what it is". Again, from their FAQ:
>
> Q: Can I choose my own individual mortise width?
> A: The Domino=AE joiner has 3 preset mortise widths that work with the
> Domino=AE tenons. It is not possible to cut other mortise widths.
>
> I can't see a grand for a machine that cuts only three sizes of
> mortises. I know Festool will think that it has provided all the
> popular sizes used today, But for grand, I would like a little
> flexibility.
I also think it is a lot of money. But, to be fair, they're doing some
serious acrobatics inside that tool. I have a feeling that they're not
dealing with off-the-shelf parts there..and there better be first
class metalurgy involved, because my limited brain thinks there are a
lot of odd-ball stresses there.
Then there is the recoup of research and up-front tooling... not to
mention a whole new marketing strategy. I said not to mention it.
>
> Looks to me though, that this could be a really neat shop tool if you
> knew exactly what you were going to do with it. =20
I think it would be a wonderful device to design towards. A 'go-to/
grab-for' machine it isn't, imho.
>
> > Have you seen one in person, touched one, felt its curves, seen the >de=
tails of all the levers and buttons? Have you picked it up, noticed >how =
the green and black compliment the silver trim? And don't get me >started=
on the carrying case. ;~)
>
> Well, I sure got a chuckle out of that one. Nothing wrong with good
> old fashioned tool lust.
>
In Leon's mind he is already thrusting his bit with rotating and
lateral motion, with plenty of plunge action....
*snickers*
If we don't hear from Leon for a few days...
On Mar 26, 12:40 pm, "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote:
SNIP
>I think the requirement is for the vac to clear out the chips. >I don't think it is about the mess it makes. My biscuit >joiners make much cleaner cuts if the blades aren't re->grinding chaff... the same thing holds for the Kreg jig. That >Domino bit operates in a very confined area, spiral cutter >or not.
Absolutely my point; you aren't going to throw this in the truck
without packing the high suction vac, too. It is part of the
package. The point I was trying to make is that I don't usually have
a vac unless I need one, and don't want anything else I have to load
in the truck. Gettin' lazy in my old age, and haven't enjoyed hauling
tools around for a long time, and the idea that I am buying a tool
that requires another bulky tool just to work properly isn't at all
appealing.
When I am working alone, if I take a break (check in another job, go
to lunch, do an estimate, pick up materials, etc.) everything on the
job has to be packed up. If I stop somewhere that tools can't safely
sit in the back of the truck (that's just about anywhere, and sorry,
tool boxes are full) so it has to go in the cab. Shop vac in the cab
sux.
> I also think it is a lot of money. But, to be fair, they're >doing some serious acrobatics inside that tool. I have a >feeling that they're not dealing with off-the-shelf parts >there..and there better be first class metalurgy involved, >because my limited brain thinks there are a
> lot of odd-ball stresses there.
It will be intersting to see how well these do in the market. Like I
said, I could see it as specific use, shop used, production tool
pretty easily. I would like to hear about their track record over the
next several months or year.
But I am wondering if they have ovetstepped the financial boundaries
of the home craftsman and not met the needs of a full timer.
> In Leon's mind he is already thrusting his bit with rotating >and lateral motion, with plenty of plunge action....
>
> *snickers*
>
> If we don't hear from Leon for a few days...
I'm kinda wondering if that isn't at least part of the attraction!
Just kiddin', Leon.
Robert
On Mar 26, 6:41 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
[snipperized for my convenience]
>
> But I am wondering if they have ovetstepped the financial boundaries
> of the home craftsman and not met the needs of a full timer.
Yea... that 'almost' tool. It's a tricky price-point, that's for sure,
but what I know about Festool, they're not really aftrer home
cabinetiers. (You like my new word? Cabinetier. Pronounced
kabinetjay..... like The Peppier (pepjay) the guy who comes around in
the restaurant and dangles that pepper mill over your plate..)
>
> > In Leon's mind he is already thrusting his bit with rotating >and lateral motion, with plenty of plunge action....
>
> > *snickers*
>
> > If we don't hear from Leon for a few days...
>
> I'm kinda wondering if that isn't at least part of the attraction!
>
> Just kiddin', Leon.
He knows we're kidding him. If he buys one, I'll be jealous.
r
On Mar 26, 12:08 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Mar 26, 6:29 am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> SNIP
>
> > I think if you were consider ing a "Multico" mortiser and a "Lamelo" >p=
late jointer that the Domino would be a very good alternative.
>
> Fair. Once you get to that level of quality machine, I would sure
> think this one would be in the running. Putting it in that context,
> it is a good point.
But the speed of the Domino for creating good joints is applicable to
anyone. Even those using the cheapest tools they can find. Does the
ability to turn out a complete piece of furniture in an afternoon
matter to you? The speed and convenience is the key to this tool.
>
> It is raining here, and my work for today was all outside. So I took
> the time to go watch the videos on the Festool site again. It will
> adjust exactly as a biscuit machines and will do multiple angles, so
> you should be OK addressing compound angles.
>
> Most of the time I do well when reading. I read instructions, prep
> sheets, technical information, etc., closely. So of course I read the
> FAQs on the machine. Certainly, the Q&As were from them.
>
> 1) It brags about using the Domino as a registration device, comparing
> it mainly to biscuits. I'll give them that one, but I don't know how
> far I would go. The tool cuts one mortise perfectly, but them you cut
> an oversize mortise on the other side to allow for "inconsistencies".
> How do oversize mortises make better registrations? I haven't ever
> used a mechanical fastener to line my work anyway; I use a pencil mark
No need to ever use the wider mortise widths unless you are just using
the tool for algnment purposes such as a biscuit jointer does with
panels. Even then you can use the official width mortise and it will
still align easily. It is precise. The inconsistencies come from the
operator. If you line it up with the pencil marks, just cut the
official width mortise.
>
> 2) Seems like they are going after the biscuit joiner in a big way.
> However, they make it abundantly clear in their literature that they
> are comparing their Dominos to crappy biscuits, the ones made from
> compressed wood chips. I bought one bag of those on Amazon, and after
> seeing so many broken pieces in the bottom of the bag, I threw the all
> out.
>
> But it has been so long since I actually looked at a biscuit, I went
> out to the shop and pulled out my PC clear container of #20s, and
> broke a few. As I thought, all solid wood. While we all know
> biscuits are not reknown for their strength, I think it is important
> to compare apples to apples. This makes me even more interested in
> seeing a strength comparison to other joints. I have NO doubt the
> Domino will win in a lot of cases, but by how much?
The April Wood magazine will have a comparison of the Domino against
biscuits against something called the DowelMax. Turns out the
DowelMax is stronger because the two dowels used create a bigger loose
tenon with the wood in between the dowels. But in any case, the
Domino loose tenons are more than strong enough. Why aren't you
raving about how weak the loose tenons cut with the MultiCo router
machine? Or the weakness of the loose tenons cut with the tables that
attach to the European combination machines? Didn't Fine Woodworkign
do some kind of test with various joints including loose tenons some
time ago? Or one of the other magazines recently? Once a tenon is
glued into the wood, its a tenon just like those cut from the wood
itself. Its been said many times that the glue is stronger than the
wood itself. So maybe the loose tenon is actually stronger than the
integral tenon.
>
> >From their FAQ:
>
> Q: Do I have to use dust extraction?
> A: We strongly recommend it. If dust is not extracted, it will clog
> the mortise.
>
> 3) Reading all the info, I was surprised to see that they require
> powered dust and chip removal. I know a lot of folks here have the
> necessary dust/chip removal equipment in their shops, but I know a lot
> don't. But I am thinking of dragging this thing out to a job, on
> site. To me, hand held, portable tools should be easy to transport
> and use. I sure wouldn't be thrilled about loading up this tool and
> having to load a shop vac as its required companion. If I am working
> in client's parking lot, or on a client's driveway, I don't care where
> the dust goes, I simply sweep up at the end of the day as it easier
> for me. I don't routinely take a shop vac to the job, although I do
> as needed. I am not really up for loading up and bringing out a
> complete "system" to put the face on a cabinet, or to join a few
> shelves
Biscuit jointers work nicer with a shop vac hooked to them. One of
the trade offs of the Domino. It needs dust extraction. Most won't
find this much a downside. Most folks who have gotten into the regime
of using dust collection don't like using anything without it. Like
ear plugs or eye protection. Once you use them, you don't go back. I
try never to operate my circular saw without ear protection.
>
> 4) I know this is picky, and maybe like any dedicated machine, "it is
> what it is". Again, from their FAQ:
>
> Q: Can I choose my own individual mortise width?
> A: The Domino=AE joiner has 3 preset mortise widths that work with the
> Domino=AE tenons. It is not possible to cut other mortise widths.
>
> I can't see a grand for a machine that cuts only three sizes of
> mortises. I know Festool will think that it has provided all the
> popular sizes used today, But for grand, I would like a little
> flexibility.
You can use the Domino to cut ANY width or height mortise you want.
Just do like a biscuit jointer and slide it along the edge and keep
cutting. You do know you can cut longer biscuit jaints than the #20
size? Why do you think this would not work with the Domino? For
height just move the fence up or down a bit and cut some more. Just
like with a biscuit jointer, just move the fence and you can cut slots
thicker than the biscuit blade. Pretty simple. Only thing you cannot
do with the Domino is cut deeper mortises than 28mm. Kind of a
limitation.
>
> Looks to me though, that this could be a really neat shop tool if you
> knew exactly what you were going to do with it. The Taunton video
> review that says once you have it, you will be thinking of all kinds
> of applications (like cutting a table top holdown!) that you can use
> this machine for in your woodworking day. Not me... for a grand plus
> a high powered shop vac companion, I will have a gameplan in place and
> a specific need to fill before purchasing.
Do you make face frames? Rail and stiles? Drawer dividers? Drawer
boxes? Attach sides to tops and bottoms of casework? It can pretty
much replace about any current joint you are using.
>
> Besides... I just spent $500 on an F'in chainsaw! =3D:0
>
> > Have you seen one in person, touched one, felt its curves, seen the >de=
tails of all the levers and buttons? Have you picked it up, noticed >how =
the green and black compliment the silver trim? And don't get me >started=
on the carrying case. ;~)
>
> Well, I sure got a chuckle out of that one. Nothing wrong with good
> old fashioned tool lust.
You will have to use it at a shop, store to appreciate it. Whether it
is worth $1000 roughly to you, ?????
>
> Please post a review when you have it !!
>
> Robert
On Mar 26, 2:08 pm, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> <<1) It brags about using the Domino as a registration device, comparing
> it mainly to biscuits. I'll give them that one, but I don't know how
> far I would go. The tool cuts one mortise perfectly, but them you cut
> an oversize mortise on the other side to allow for "inconsistencies".
> How do oversize mortises make better registrations? I haven't ever
> used a mechanical fastener to line my work anyway; I use a pencil mark<<
>
> If I'm not mistaken they mean "oversize" in mortise _width_, which would
> have no bearing on face to face registration, not thickness, which would.
>
> This mortise width wider than the tenon ostensibly gives you some wiggle
> room to say, align the top of an apron with the top of a leg and still not
> weaken the joint, or to use multiple side by side mortises without undue
> precision/fuss.
>
> >>4) I know this is picky, and maybe like any dedicated machine, "it is
>
> what it is". Again, from their FAQ:
>
> Q: Can I choose my own individual mortise width?
> A: The Domino=AE joiner has 3 preset mortise widths that work with the
> Domino=AE tenons. It is not possible to cut other mortise widths.
>
> I can't see a grand for a machine that cuts only three sizes of
> mortises. I know Festool will think that it has provided all the
> popular sizes used today, But for grand, I would like a little
> flexibility.<<
>
> The widest mortise is 1 1/4", but the widest tenon is, IIRC, 1".
>
> The largest tenon is apparently 3/8" thick, by 7/8" wide, by 2" long.
>
> That begs the question of what is keeping the woodworker from making his =
own
> loose tenons, as I do when using the Multi-router?
>
> Does anyone know the radius of the curve on the mortises? IOW, which radi=
us
> roundover bit would you use to make your own loose tenons, would be on the
> questions I would want to have an answer to prior to buying.
>
> While it may not appear important, making loose tenons that fit well is n=
ot
> all that quick/easy of a task to setup initially. DAMHIKT.
Does having a precise exact fitting loose tenon add much to the
strength of the joint? How much extra gluing surface to you get from
that corner compared to the flat sides of the loose tenon? Not much.
>
> The biggest limitation that I see with the Domino thus far is that you're
> limited to a mortise "depth" of 1" ... I don't think I could live with th=
at
> for many chairs and large tables.
But would the ability to put four 1" wide by 1" long loose tenons into
a leaf/apron assembly at each corner be as good or better or more than
strong enough than one 2" wide by 2" long loose tenon? 8" of glue
surface on both examples. The Domino can cut the eight mortices for
the first example in seconds, literally.
But for large pieces such as trestle tables, I would prefer a longer,
thicker, bigger tenon than the Domino is capable of. But you could
start the mortise with the Domino, and then use a top bearing guided
plunge router bit to make it deeper. Domino cuts the template to
follow. Still very fast I imagine.
>
> --www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 2/20/07
On Mar 28, 1:32 pm, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
SNIP
> You will have to use it at a shop, store to appreciate >it. Whether it is worth $1000 roughly to you, ?????
Wow, Russel, I didn't mean to get you all fired up. I didn't say the
machine had no value, or that I was unable to see any.
Obviously you are very keenly interested in this machine, and if you
buy one I hope you will post a review. My post was not meant to be a
comprehensive, comparative look at all types and aspects of different
machine joinery and the machines that make them. It was just a
comment on the Festool Domino.
Like I said in my post, and to amplify what I said, if I were stuck in
a shop or manufacturing plant all day, this might be a good tool.
Since I do remodeling and repairs, most of my work takes me to a
jobsite, whether to repair, build or rebuild. I don't know how handy
that would be to put a face on a cabinet and wait for it to dry, or
assemble some other kind of cabinet components that I would have to
wait for glue to dry. Now we're back at the same thing as biscuit
(waiting for glue to dry) except with a stronger joint.
And if this machine is used as an actual mechanical contruction method
that relies on the Domino as the sole joining technique and material,
you will indeed be waiting for glue to dry. (Think pocket screws
here).
I am sure the Domino will find its way into many a shop and be used
with great speed and delight.
Just a couple of thoughts.
Robert
On Mar 26, 3:08 pm, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> The biggest limitation that I see with the Domino thus far is that you're
> limited to a mortise "depth" of 1" ... I don't think I could live with that
> for many chairs and large tables.
>
That is indeed a limitation. I am a bit surprised by that. (Maybe I am
looking for excuses to hang onto my g-note)
In most small applications, such as face-frames and other domestic
jobs, biscuits have been doing the job when pocket screws weren't.
Frankly, in order for me to spend that kind of money, it would have to
add to my capabilities. So far, I see nothing surpassing anything that
I already do.
Sure...there are the curves, the novelty. I don't think anybody here
would argue the 'coolness' of this machine.
But how is it going to do my job better.
The jury just ordered chinese food.
On Mar 28, 3:23 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
> On Mar 26, 12:08 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> But the speed of the Domino for creating good joints is applicable to
> anyone. Even those using the cheapest tools they can find. Does the
> ability to turn out a complete piece of furniture in an afternoon
> matter to you? The speed and convenience is the key to this tool.
>
> Well I am kicking the tires on both sides of the car concerning the Domino.
> I value pro and con views.
> While I agree that this tool will speed production dramatically, turning out
> a complete piece of furniture in an afternoon is still not achievable 99% or
> the time. Additionally, :~) for those using the cheapest tools they can
> find, the Domino would probably be an abomination of excess to the thrifty.
>
> No need to ever use the wider mortise widths unless you are just using
> the tool for algnment purposes such as a biscuit jointer does with
> panels. Even then you can use the official width mortise and it will
> still align easily. It is precise. The inconsistencies come from the
> operator. If you line it up with the pencil marks, just cut the
> official width mortise.
>
> Sn....ip.
>
> Biscuit jointers work nicer with a shop vac hooked to them. One of
> the trade offs of the Domino. It needs dust extraction. Most won't
> find this much a downside. Most folks who have gotten into the regime
> of using dust collection don't like using anything without it. Like
> ear plugs or eye protection. Once you use them, you don't go back. I
> try never to operate my circular saw without ear protection.
>
> Actually the dust collection for the Domino would probably be the deal
> breaker.
> I use dust collection but have been informed that a shop vac type collector
> is necessary over a dust collector. I got rid of the noisy shop vac and
> will not go back. Putting out an additional $250-$300 for a good and quiet
> shop vac/Festool brand is way more than I am wanting to swallow.
>
> You can use the Domino to cut ANY width or height mortise you want.
> Just do like a biscuit jointer and slide it along the edge and keep
> cutting. You do know you can cut longer biscuit jaints than the #20
> size? Why do you think this would not work with the Domino?
>
> Because Domino states only 3 sizes. I agree however that simply moving the
> tool over to a new spot will accomplish a wider tennon.
>
> For
> height just move the fence up or down a bit and cut some more. Just
> like with a biscuit jointer, just move the fence and you can cut slots
> thicker than the biscuit blade. Pretty simple. Only thing you cannot
> do with the Domino is cut deeper mortises than 28mm. Kind of a
> limitation.
>
> And that kinda sucks if you are building massive furniture.
>
> Do you make face frames? Rail and stiles? Drawer dividers? Drawer
> boxes? Attach sides to tops and bottoms of casework? It can pretty
> much replace about any current joint you are using.
>
> Agreed, it would be great in this area.
> The problem though is that it will not replace a mortiser for the big jobs.
> The Domino is more of an addition to a good collection.
The price compares to a Lamello biscuit joiner both about $700.
As a hobbiest woodwoker time is my biggest challenge, if this tool
saves me just 2 hrs on each project then the cost pays for itself in
no time. Where as a professional has to be able to recoup part of the
cost then the price may not be worth it.
The ability to take the $660 tool to the wood unlike a $3000 multi-
router is were I think this tool really shines.
FYI McFeely's is selling smaller batches of the dominos.
Also what's to prevent someone from making their own tenons. As for
the radius of the mortises its the same as the cutter.
Renowood
On Mar 28, 4:43 pm, "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mar 26, 3:08 pm, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > The biggest limitation that I see with the Domino thus far is that you're
> > limited to a mortise "depth" of 1" ... I don't think I could live with that
> > for many chairs and large tables.
>
> That is indeed a limitation. I am a bit surprised by that. (Maybe I am
> looking for excuses to hang onto my g-note)
>
> In most small applications, such as face-frames and other domestic
> jobs, biscuits have been doing the job when pocket screws weren't.
>
> Frankly, in order for me to spend that kind of money, it would have to
> add to my capabilities. So far, I see nothing surpassing anything that
> I already do.
But if the Domino can do what you currently do in 1/10th or 1/100th
the time, is it worth it? Speed in doing a decent, acceptable loose
tenon joint is the key to the Domino.
You mention domestic jobs and biscuits and pocket screws. For
domestic stuff, such as shop and garage and shed cabinets, these are
fine. But for building an entertainment center out of solid walnut,
are you going to use pocket screws? Not me. Would you trust biscuits
on an entertainment center with $1000 of solid walnut wood in it and
XX hours of your time? Not me.
How long does it take you to cut the joints on a simple solid walnut
end table? Four legs, top, four aprons. The Domino can do it in
seconds/minutes.
The speed to cut joints is the Domino advantage. Not the ability to
cut mortises. I have a router and mortise chisels and drill press to
cut mortises. But none of them are quick. So I look for alternative
joints to use. Just like people use a table saw for cutting wood when
they also have a hand saw and hand plane. You can use a hand saw and
hand plane to rip and crosscut wood to whatever dimension you like.
Don't need a table saw.
>
> Sure...there are the curves, the novelty. I don't think anybody here
> would argue the 'coolness' of this machine.
>
> But how is it going to do my job better.
Faster. Easier. You will use the appropriate mortise and tenon joint
more often than a weaker or less aesthetic joint.
>
> The jury just ordered chinese food.
On Mar 28, 4:16 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Mar 28, 1:32 pm, "[email protected]"
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> SNIP
>
> > You will have to use it at a shop, store to appreciate >it. Whether it is worth $1000 roughly to you, ?????
>
> Wow, Russel, I didn't mean to get you all fired up. I didn't say the
> machine had no value, or that I was unable to see any.
>
> Obviously you are very keenly interested in this machine, and if you
> buy one I hope you will post a review. My post was not meant to be a
> comprehensive, comparative look at all types and aspects of different
> machine joinery and the machines that make them. It was just a
> comment on the Festool Domino.
>
> Like I said in my post, and to amplify what I said, if I were stuck in
> a shop or manufacturing plant all day, this might be a good tool.
> Since I do remodeling and repairs, most of my work takes me to a
> jobsite, whether to repair, build or rebuild. I don't know how handy
> that would be to put a face on a cabinet and wait for it to dry, or
> assemble some other kind of cabinet components that I would have to
> wait for glue to dry. Now we're back at the same thing as biscuit
> (waiting for glue to dry) except with a stronger joint.
>
> And if this machine is used as an actual mechanical contruction method
> that relies on the Domino as the sole joining technique and material,
> you will indeed be waiting for glue to dry. (Think pocket screws
> here).
>
> I am sure the Domino will find its way into many a shop and be used
> with great speed and delight.
>
> Just a couple of thoughts.
>
> Robert
You are thinking of the Domino as a carpentry tool. Not a furniture
woodworking too. Most of my woodworking tools are not useful or used
when I am doing carpentry and remodeling. My hammer, reciprocating
saw, skil saw, get used a lot. Mud pans, taping knives, utility
knife, elbow grease, drywall screws, etc. are also used a lot. Lots
of drywall screws. Jointer, planer, drill press, routers, etc. do
not. Table saw is useful for both carpentry and furniture
woodworking. Clamps are handy for carpentry but mainly used in
furniture making. I don't think the Domino would have any benefit for
carpentry work. More drywall screws and a second driver would be a
better investment for carpentry work.
I'm looking at it. Have not decided to buy one yet. I have until May
31 to get the special pricing. HaHa. The thing that appeals to me is
the speed and ease. If it can get me to make furniture joints faster,
I will be more likely to make the furniture and acually produce
something. Even if its just a simple end table that costs $50.
Actually making the table could justify the $1000 to me because it
removes a road block to actually getting me to make something. I can
make and have made mortise and tenon joints. Router and U shaped jig
and lots of positioning and clamping. Mortise chisels too. Table saw
for tenons on the ends of rails. Shoulder plane to trim them to fit.
Lot of time and effort. Domino can't add to my ability to make a
joint. But it might allow me to do the joint so quick I can actually
be enticed to make something. Might be worth it to ME.
On Mar 28, 6:23 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
> On Mar 26, 12:08 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> But the speed of the Domino for creating good joints is applicable to
> anyone. Even those using the cheapest tools they can find. Does the
> ability to turn out a complete piece of furniture in an afternoon
> matter to you? The speed and convenience is the key to this tool.
>
> Well I am kicking the tires on both sides of the car concerning the Domino.
> I value pro and con views.
> While I agree that this tool will speed production dramatically, turning out
> a complete piece of furniture in an afternoon is still not achievable 99% or
> the time. Additionally, :~) for those using the cheapest tools they can
> find, the Domino would probably be an abomination of excess to the thrifty.
For me the joint cutting is the time consuming and tedious part of
building a piece of furniture. I can sort of mindlessly square and
smooth the pieces to be used in the furniture. But when it comes to
actually getting the pieces together, that is where the important part
happens. I've spent lots of time setting up routers and drill presses
to cut mortises. And table saws with dado blades to cut tenons. And
shoulder planes to fit. I think the Domino can eliminate this time
consuming and tedious portion of furniture building so all you are
left with is the pleasant part of making the individual pieces. I
find the piece making sort of pleasant. Still have the finishing to
make better and easier.
How much is it worth to cut out the difficult part of furniture
making? But still have good, solid, strong, nice mortise and tenon
jionts holding your nice piece of furniture together? I don't and
won't use bisuict or pocket screws to hold my nice pieces of furniture
together. The joints. I use biscuits for gluing together panels.
Mortise and tenon or dovetails are the only ones I like and use on
nice pieces of furniture.
You will still spend time making the piece of furniture. But it will
all be productive time. No minutes and hours setting up and getting
out and putting away routers and jigs to cut mortises. No putting the
dado blade on the saw and test cutting to get the height just right
for the tenon. This is not productive woodworking time. I get no joy
out of setting up machines and doing test cuts. I want to do the real
cuts. How much is it worth to eliminate all of the wasted setup time
from your furniture making? My shop time is about 90% waste time
now. If I could get that down to just 50% waste time, I would be much
more productive. And I get some joy out of actually making a piece of
furniture.
As Renowood says below, I think the hobbyist will benefit and
appreciate the Domino the most. Hobby furniture making will be more
fun, enjoyable, productive.
>
> No need to ever use the wider mortise widths unless you are just using
> the tool for algnment purposes such as a biscuit jointer does with
> panels. Even then you can use the official width mortise and it will
> still align easily. It is precise. The inconsistencies come from the
> operator. If you line it up with the pencil marks, just cut the
> official width mortise.
>
> Sn....ip.
>
> Biscuit jointers work nicer with a shop vac hooked to them. One of
> the trade offs of the Domino. It needs dust extraction. Most won't
> find this much a downside. Most folks who have gotten into the regime
> of using dust collection don't like using anything without it. Like
> ear plugs or eye protection. Once you use them, you don't go back. I
> try never to operate my circular saw without ear protection.
>
> Actually the dust collection for the Domino would probably be the deal
> breaker.
> I use dust collection but have been informed that a shop vac type collector
> is necessary over a dust collector. I got rid of the noisy shop vac and
> will not go back.
I have and occassionally use my cheap screaming shop vac. Only with
ear plugs. It will work just fine with the Domino and some duct tape
to hook up the hose. Actually none of my tools are loud since I
always wear hearing protection. So I get no real benefit from the
quiet shop vacs because my hearing protection reduces the sound level
on all of them to easily tolerable.
Putting out an additional $250-$300 for a good and quiet
> shop vac/Festool brand is way more than I am wanting to swallow.
>
> You can use the Domino to cut ANY width or height mortise you want.
> Just do like a biscuit jointer and slide it along the edge and keep
> cutting. You do know you can cut longer biscuit jaints than the #20
> size? Why do you think this would not work with the Domino?
>
> Because Domino states only 3 sizes. I agree however that simply moving the
> tool over to a new spot will accomplish a wider tennon.
>
> For
> height just move the fence up or down a bit and cut some more. Just
> like with a biscuit jointer, just move the fence and you can cut slots
> thicker than the biscuit blade. Pretty simple. Only thing you cannot
> do with the Domino is cut deeper mortises than 28mm. Kind of a
> limitation.
>
> And that kinda sucks if you are building massive furniture.
True. A trestle table and I would use big tenons and mortises and not
be able to use the Domino. But I only plan to make about 1 trestle
table in my life. Most big furniture is really a collection of
smaller modules. Huge entertainment centers and bookcases are usually
3 or 4 pieces screwed together. Its hard to move from house to house
huge pieces of furniture. For the few times in your life you make
huge furniture, then you will have to come up with another way. But
for the 99.99% of the other times, the Domino may be just perfect.
When I buy stuff I try to get the thing appropriate for 99% of the
time and cross the 1% bridge when I get to it. Kind of like the
people who buy Hummer vehicles to commute in rush hour from their
suburban home in San Diego to their downtown office. When the
blizzard hits, they will be ready. But for the 99.999999999999999% of
the non blizzard days in San Diego, its not a good choice.
If your work requires you to make huge furniture a majority of the
time, then the Domino probably is not for you. Most people's work do
not require them to make huge furniture more than once or twice a
lifetime.
>
> Do you make face frames? Rail and stiles? Drawer dividers? Drawer
> boxes? Attach sides to tops and bottoms of casework? It can pretty
> much replace about any current joint you are using.
>
> Agreed, it would be great in this area.
> The problem though is that it will not replace a mortiser for the big jobs.
How many big jobs are there that you do? Trestle table, not for the
Domino. Headboard? I think the Domino would be fine for this since a
headboard does not move. For most folks anyway. Bedroom drawer
chests are big but the joinery of the casework is easily handled by
the Domino. End tables, Domino. Couch, maybe not for the Domino.
Entertainment centers and bookcases are many modules hooked together
to form a big piece. Just casework mainly. Domino would be
appropriate. Coffee table and benches, Domino would work. Smaller
tables, Domino would work. Chairs, Domino should work. I'd say 95%
of thee furniture in a house would easily be handled with the sort of
small loose tenons the Domino uses. Entry doors of solid wood, the
Domino would not be my choice.
> The Domino is more of an addition to a good collection.
But an addition that can do the job of almost all of the other tools
so much faster and easier. I don't think the rest of the collection
would get much use except for the rare instance of extra large or
extra small work where the Domino is not appropriate.
On Mar 30, 10:09 am, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>. Domino can't add to my ability to make a
> joint. But it might allow me to do the joint so quick I can actually
> be enticed to make something. Might be worth it to ME.
A very valid point. I appreciate the candor.
There is no doubt that if I had a Domino in my arsenal, I'd use it for
things that I am now passing on.
Yet, I manage to keep myself busy WAY more than I had originally
envisioned when I sold my business and retired.
Ya right.
What I need to add to my arsenal is the ability to say no to people.
With a Domino in my kit, that would be harder again. "Sure, I can whip
up a few loose tenons here and do that..."
It is all about priorities with me. I'd rather drop a g-note into my
computer hardware. That doesn't mean I will never buy a Domino...I
mean, come-on...who doesn't want one?
r
On Mar 28, 7:23 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Actually the dust collection for the Domino would probably be the deal
> breaker.
> I use dust collection but have been informed that a shop vac type collector
> is necessary over a dust collector. I got rid of the noisy shop vac and
> will not go back. Putting out an additional $250-$300 for a good and quiet
> shop vac/Festool brand is way more than I am wanting to swallow.
>
Leon,
I used to hate shopvacs. I got one of the newer Rigid ones with noise
reduction and now I actually use it. Obviously, it's not totally
quiet, but you can actually use it without feeling the need for
hearing protection.
I think it was around $60 after a rebate.. Maybe the original price
was $80.. Might be worth looking into. I actually like this shopvac.
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Just keep repeating "Hello, my name is Leon. I'm a toolaholic!"
If it had a Laguna brand name instead of some fruity name like Festool, it
would already be in his toolbox. I'm sure he's already planning to make the
tenons on his bandsaw instead of buying them.
Bob
<[email protected]> wrote in message
> For me the joint cutting is the time consuming and tedious part of
> building a piece of furniture. I can sort of mindlessly square and
> smooth the pieces to be used in the furniture. But when it comes to
> actually getting the pieces together, that is where the important part
> happens. I've spent lots of time setting up routers and drill presses
> to cut mortises. And table saws with dado blades to cut tenons. And
> shoulder planes to fit. I think the Domino can eliminate this time
> consuming and tedious portion of furniture building so all you are
> left with is the pleasant part of making the individual pieces. I
> find the piece making sort of pleasant. Still have the finishing to
> make better and easier.
The BIGGEST plus of using loose tenon joinery, IME:
__The ability to BATCH cut your cut list to ACTUAL project dimensions__
This makes for speed and goes a looooong way to guaranteeing SQUARE ... the
latter being the holy grail of the smart cabinetmaker.
Any tool that can help with both is worth the investment for those who take
in paying woodworking jobs.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07
"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> What are those brushes worth? In this case, a whole lot more than what
> they normally sell them for.
> Anyway, I thought I'd share something positive.
>
>
> r--->who gives his customers a neatly finished trivet, made from the
> same material as their countertop, with Magic Sponge attached to it.
> Somehow that makes the customer happier than with a $ 3000.00
> countertop.
>
Cool. I wonder if all the Festools come with that extra set of brushes.
BTY I got to do the touchy feely thing with the Domino on Friday. No
testing but I got to see a sample of the joint, pretty impressive.
Still, it's going to cost a small fortune to get one with a decent
assortment of tennons. IIRC $920+ tax. And then I was informed that a dust
collector will not be able to be keep up with the Domino. I wonder if that
is true or not. Seems a shop vacuum is the tool of choice for this
situation but again, I wonder. I know choking down the 4" hose limits its
flow but not so much if the choke is at the tool rather than away from the
tool. I still get pretty good flow at the router table, disk sander, and
spindle sander. I think I'll experiment with my PC plate jointer and see if
that holds water. The dust port is almost the same size as on the Domino.
"Leon" wrote in message
> That completely valid and level headed view of the usefulness of this tool
> probably fits for 99 % of the wood workers. I think I may be different
> though.
You are different ... you have a MR at your beck and call 24/7!
That's OK though, it's not a bad idea to supplement a _collective_ arsenal
of available weapons. :)
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07
<[email protected]> wrote in message
>> While it may not appear important, making loose tenons that fit well is
not
>> all that quick/easy of a task to setup initially. DAMHIKT.
>Does having a precise exact fitting loose tenon add much to the
>strength of the joint?
Obviously the "long grain to long grain" 'glue surface' match of the tenon
sides with the mortise sides is the most important aspect for a good joint.
A little wiggle room between the width of the tenon, and length of the
mortise, whether square or rounded, won't cause too much of a problem as
long as the sides fit with the proper snugness (generally thought to be
sufficient if they go together with a "hand pressure" fit that won't fall
out under its own weight)
However, in actual practice it is worth noting that a bad match of the
round-over portion of a "loose tenon" with the rounded corners of a routered
mortise will often cause problems with the fit in the mortise to the extent
that you do end up with a too loose, "loose" tenon along its sides as well,
even if you've previously taken great pains in matching tenon thickness to
mortise and bit "width".
Much of this phenomenon comes about, at least in my observation, in the
variations/imprecision in the routing process itself in routing mortises
that are precisely the same width/thickness as the router bit used.
AAMOF, I currently own/use a Multi-Router, use loose/floating tenon joinery
almost exclusively these days, and find it can be a quite fussy setup,
requiring more precision/trial and error than you would expect on first
glance, to mill "loose tenon" stock that fits as well as a traditional M&T
joint.
IOW, it not always "mill the stock to 3/8" thick and use a 3/16th's
round-over bit and you're done" operation as is often described when
explaining loose/floating tenon joinery. A good deal of shop time can be
spent in doing this, at least to my satisfaction ... and lousy fit, lousy
joint.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On Mar 26, 6:29 am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
1) It brags about using the Domino as a registration device, comparing
it mainly to biscuits. I'll give them that one, but I don't know how
far I would go. The tool cuts one mortise perfectly, but them you cut
an oversize mortise on the other side to allow for "inconsistencies".
How do oversize mortises make better registrations? I haven't ever
used a mechanical fastener to line my work anyway; I use a pencil mark
From what I understand the first mortise is cut on both sides of the joint
to an exact fit and location, then the next in line mortises are cut a bit
"wider" to accomidate for registration being a bit off.
Q: Do I have to use dust extraction?
A: We strongly recommend it. If dust is not extracted, it will clog
the mortise.
3) Reading all the info, I was surprised to see that they require
powered dust and chip removal. I know a lot of folks here have the
necessary dust/chip removal equipment in their shops, but I know a lot
don't. But I am thinking of dragging this thing out to a job, on
site. To me, hand held, portable tools should be easy to transport
and use. I sure wouldn't be thrilled about loading up this tool and
having to load a shop vac as its required companion. If I am working
in client's parking lot, or on a client's driveway, I don't care where
the dust goes, I simply sweep up at the end of the day as it easier
for me. I don't routinely take a shop vac to the job, although I do
as needed. I am not really up for loading up and bringing out a
complete "system" to put the face on a cabinet, or to join a few
shelves
I agree with loading the issues concerning the loading of seperate pieces of
equipment however Festool Systainers are stackable and attach to each
outher. IIRC they will attach on top of "their" vacum cleaner. Basically
it all becomes a single unit that you can roll around.
Q: Can I choose my own individual mortise width?
A: The Domino® joiner has 3 preset mortise widths that work with the
Domino® tenons. It is not possible to cut other mortise widths.
I can't see a grand for a machine that cuts only three sizes of
mortises. I know Festool will think that it has provided all the
popular sizes used today, But for grand, I would like a little
flexibility.
I think they may be shooting themselves in the foot on that answer. I would
think that if you wanted a wider mortise you would simply move the tool over
an inch or so, or what ever the requirement would be.
Besides... I just spent $500 on an F'in chainsaw! =:0
Totally Oh....... MY....... GOD!!!!! LOL... How smooth of a cut does
it leave? LOL...
> Have you seen one in person, touched one, felt its curves, seen the
> >details of all the levers and buttons? Have you picked it up, noticed
> >how the green and black compliment the silver trim? And don't get me
> >started on the carrying case. ;~)
Well, I sure got a chuckle out of that one. Nothing wrong with good
old fashioned tool lust.
You nailed it. LUST.
Please post a review when you have it !!
Unless I have a weak moment at the tool show this weekend I'll probably not
be getting one.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On Mar 26, 12:08 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
But the speed of the Domino for creating good joints is applicable to
anyone. Even those using the cheapest tools they can find. Does the
ability to turn out a complete piece of furniture in an afternoon
matter to you? The speed and convenience is the key to this tool.
Well I am kicking the tires on both sides of the car concerning the Domino.
I value pro and con views.
While I agree that this tool will speed production dramatically, turning out
a complete piece of furniture in an afternoon is still not achievable 99% or
the time. Additionally, :~) for those using the cheapest tools they can
find, the Domino would probably be an abomination of excess to the thrifty.
No need to ever use the wider mortise widths unless you are just using
the tool for algnment purposes such as a biscuit jointer does with
panels. Even then you can use the official width mortise and it will
still align easily. It is precise. The inconsistencies come from the
operator. If you line it up with the pencil marks, just cut the
official width mortise.
Sn....ip.
Biscuit jointers work nicer with a shop vac hooked to them. One of
the trade offs of the Domino. It needs dust extraction. Most won't
find this much a downside. Most folks who have gotten into the regime
of using dust collection don't like using anything without it. Like
ear plugs or eye protection. Once you use them, you don't go back. I
try never to operate my circular saw without ear protection.
Actually the dust collection for the Domino would probably be the deal
breaker.
I use dust collection but have been informed that a shop vac type collector
is necessary over a dust collector. I got rid of the noisy shop vac and
will not go back. Putting out an additional $250-$300 for a good and quiet
shop vac/Festool brand is way more than I am wanting to swallow.
You can use the Domino to cut ANY width or height mortise you want.
Just do like a biscuit jointer and slide it along the edge and keep
cutting. You do know you can cut longer biscuit jaints than the #20
size? Why do you think this would not work with the Domino?
Because Domino states only 3 sizes. I agree however that simply moving the
tool over to a new spot will accomplish a wider tennon.
For
height just move the fence up or down a bit and cut some more. Just
like with a biscuit jointer, just move the fence and you can cut slots
thicker than the biscuit blade. Pretty simple. Only thing you cannot
do with the Domino is cut deeper mortises than 28mm. Kind of a
limitation.
And that kinda sucks if you are building massive furniture.
Do you make face frames? Rail and stiles? Drawer dividers? Drawer
boxes? Attach sides to tops and bottoms of casework? It can pretty
much replace about any current joint you are using.
Agreed, it would be great in this area.
The problem though is that it will not replace a mortiser for the big jobs.
The Domino is more of an addition to a good collection.
"Renowood" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
.
>
> As a hobbiest woodwoker time is my biggest challenge, if this tool
> saves me just 2 hrs on each project then the cost pays for itself in
> no time. Where as a professional has to be able to recoup part of the
> cost then the price may not be worth it.
>
> The ability to take the $660 tool to the wood unlike a $3000 multi-
> router is were I think this tool really shines.
>
> FYI McFeely's is selling smaller batches of the dominos.
>
> Also what's to prevent someone from making their own tenons. As for
> the radius of the mortises its the same as the cutter.
The Festool tennons are relatively cheap. The small ones are as little a 4
cents each. Free time being valuable, buying them premade would be cheaper.
1800 for $67.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Yep. And shipping because no Festool tools are stock items. All are
> ordered especially for that customer. To make that person feel
> special.
That is not correct. My dealer is a stocking dealer. He has several
sanders in stock and will have the Domino.
Actually I could have bought just about any of the equipment back in
December when he had an open house and the Festool rep brought a supply of
all the tools.
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Leon" wrote in message
>
>> That completely valid and level headed view of the usefulness of this
>> tool
>> probably fits for 99 % of the wood workers. I think I may be different
>> though.
>
> You are different ... you have a MR at your beck and call 24/7!
LOL, Well I certainly appreciate the generous offer and as usual what's
mine is also at your disposal.
>
> That's OK though, it's not a bad idea to supplement a _collective_ arsenal
> of available weapons. :)
No, kidding. You never know when I might need to use the MR and you may be
using it to cut a mortice or two. ;~)
[email protected] wrote:
> On Mar 28, 4:43 pm, "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Mar 26, 3:08 pm, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> The biggest limitation that I see with the Domino thus far is that
>>> you're limited to a mortise "depth" of 1" ... I don't think I could
>>> live with that for many chairs and large tables.
>>
>> That is indeed a limitation. I am a bit surprised by that. (Maybe I
>> am looking for excuses to hang onto my g-note)
>>
>> In most small applications, such as face-frames and other domestic
>> jobs, biscuits have been doing the job when pocket screws weren't.
>>
>> Frankly, in order for me to spend that kind of money, it would have
>> to add to my capabilities. So far, I see nothing surpassing anything
>> that I already do.
>
> But if the Domino can do what you currently do in 1/10th or 1/100th
> the time, is it worth it? Speed in doing a decent, acceptable loose
> tenon joint is the key to the Domino.
>
> You mention domestic jobs and biscuits and pocket screws. For
> domestic stuff, such as shop and garage and shed cabinets, these are
> fine. But for building an entertainment center out of solid walnut,
> are you going to use pocket screws? Not me. Would you trust biscuits
> on an entertainment center with $1000 of solid walnut wood in it and
> XX hours of your time? Not me.
>
> How long does it take you to cut the joints on a simple solid walnut
> end table? Four legs, top, four aprons. The Domino can do it in
> seconds/minutes.
>
> The speed to cut joints is the Domino advantage. Not the ability to
> cut mortises. I have a router and mortise chisels and drill press to
> cut mortises. But none of them are quick. So I look for alternative
> joints to use. Just like people use a table saw for cutting wood when
> they also have a hand saw and hand plane. You can use a hand saw and
> hand plane to rip and crosscut wood to whatever dimension you like.
> Don't need a table saw.
>
>
>>
>> Sure...there are the curves, the novelty. I don't think anybody here
>> would argue the 'coolness' of this machine.
>>
>> But how is it going to do my job better.
>
> Faster. Easier. You will use the appropriate mortise and tenon joint
> more often than a weaker or less aesthetic joint.
So how do I use it to make the "appropriate mortise and tenon joint" for
Craftsman style furniture in which the tenon passes all the way through
and is wedged externally?
Limited utility. If it does what you need it's really nice, but if you
don't _need_ what it does then it's an expensive extravagance.
>> The jury just ordered chinese food.
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] wrote:
>
> So how do I use it to make the "appropriate mortise and tenon joint" for
> Craftsman style furniture in which the tenon passes all the way through
> and is wedged externally?
Typically the Craftsman style furniture has through tennons that are of the
same wood as the project, not loose tennons. The Dominio is designed to be
used with loose tennons. Even with a multorouter to cut through mortises,
you would not want to use loose tennons and especially those made from
Beech.
>
> Limited utility. If it does what you need it's really nice, but if you
> don't _need_ what it does then it's an expensive extravagance.
Correct. Expensice extravagance, for some a cabinet saw is an expensive
extravagance.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
> Has anyone seen any joint tests to back up their claims of strength?
Domino is simply "loose/floating tenon" joinery which testing has shown to
be roughly equivalent in strength to traditional M & T ... perhaps a shade
less so, but not enough to be a factor for most applications.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07
<[email protected]> wrote in message
<<1) It brags about using the Domino as a registration device, comparing
it mainly to biscuits. I'll give them that one, but I don't know how
far I would go. The tool cuts one mortise perfectly, but them you cut
an oversize mortise on the other side to allow for "inconsistencies".
How do oversize mortises make better registrations? I haven't ever
used a mechanical fastener to line my work anyway; I use a pencil mark<<
If I'm not mistaken they mean "oversize" in mortise _width_, which would
have no bearing on face to face registration, not thickness, which would.
This mortise width wider than the tenon ostensibly gives you some wiggle
room to say, align the top of an apron with the top of a leg and still not
weaken the joint, or to use multiple side by side mortises without undue
precision/fuss.
>>4) I know this is picky, and maybe like any dedicated machine, "it is
what it is". Again, from their FAQ:
Q: Can I choose my own individual mortise width?
A: The Domino® joiner has 3 preset mortise widths that work with the
Domino® tenons. It is not possible to cut other mortise widths.
I can't see a grand for a machine that cuts only three sizes of
mortises. I know Festool will think that it has provided all the
popular sizes used today, But for grand, I would like a little
flexibility.<<
The widest mortise is 1 1/4", but the widest tenon is, IIRC, 1".
The largest tenon is apparently 3/8" thick, by 7/8" wide, by 2" long.
That begs the question of what is keeping the woodworker from making his own
loose tenons, as I do when using the Multi-router?
Does anyone know the radius of the curve on the mortises? IOW, which radius
roundover bit would you use to make your own loose tenons, would be on the
questions I would want to have an answer to prior to buying.
While it may not appear important, making loose tenons that fit well is not
all that quick/easy of a task to setup initially. DAMHIKT.
The biggest limitation that I see with the Domino thus far is that you're
limited to a mortise "depth" of 1" ... I don't think I could live with that
for many chairs and large tables.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> For me the joint cutting is the time consuming and tedious part of
> building a piece of furniture. I can sort of mindlessly square and
> smooth the pieces to be used in the furniture. But when it comes to
> actually getting the pieces together, that is where the important part
> happens. I've spent lots of time setting up routers and drill presses
> to cut mortises. And table saws with dado blades to cut tenons. And
> shoulder planes to fit. I think the Domino can eliminate this time
> consuming and tedious portion of furniture building so all you are
> left with is the pleasant part of making the individual pieces. I
> find the piece making sort of pleasant. Still have the finishing to
> make better and easier.
The tool certainly has it's place and I would love to have one. But the
price is the problem. I make mortise and tennons but most often cut the
mortises with a dedicated mortiser and cut the tennons on the router table.
It really has become a pretty quick operation for me.
>
> How much is it worth to cut out the difficult part of furniture
> making?
It's all relative. For some the slow detailed work it the part that they
appreciate about woodworking. With practice and experience mortice and
tennons go pretty quickly although not as quickly as using the Domino where
the Domino can do an equal job.
"Bob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> Just keep repeating "Hello, my name is Leon. I'm a toolaholic!"
>
> If it had a Laguna brand name instead of some fruity name like Festool, it
> would already be in his toolbox. I'm sure he's already planning to make
> the tenons on his bandsaw instead of buying them.
LOL. too bad the BS won't cut mortises.
Actually the tennons for the Domino are pretty reasonable. You can get the
largest ones for as little as 13 cents each. The small ones as little as 4
cents each.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Leon - I think Woodcraft has them on sale for $660 + $200 for bits.
>
> Scary.
Yeah but then you really want the one that sells for $720. That one is a
kit that addes 2 jigs for helping you cut mortises on the ends of very
narrow stock and a 2 piece jig for cutting mortises accurately spaced along
the edge of a long board or panel. The $660 model does not have those two
jig/adapters.
> Is anyone here having joint failures or specializing in installations
> that would warrant the SPECIFIC use of a Domino? For a G I would have
> to join about a lumberyard's worth of lumber to make me happy.
That completely valid and level headed view of the usefulness of this tool
probably fits for 99 % of the wood workers. I think I may be different
though. LOL Its like buying a Mercedes of BMW when a Chevy will do
perfectly well.
>
> With tools for dowels, loose dowels, full mortising machines, tenon
> jigs, 4 - 5 sized of bisquits, router jigs, pocket screws, hammer and
> chisels, table saw joints, specialized router table router bits for
> joining, and on and on... where does this thing really fit in?
It probably replaces all of them except fot the dowel jigs. I know I wold
probably never use my mortiser and or plate jointer if I had a Domino. If I
knew that it would cut a mortise in a compound angled surface I think I
would take a much closer look. So far no one has been able to show me how
this would be accomplished.
>
> I have not doubt it is a fine tool, but wonder what group of tools it
> would have to replace to fit the price tag. I watched the video on
> their site, and it looks like the connectors they use are the
> highlight. Small, solid, striated to hold the glue, and look like
> good quality.
I think if you were consider ing a "Multico" mortiser and a "Lamelo" plate
jointer that the Domino would be a very good alternative.
>
> I had a jig plan for a small router that would cut that very same
> rounded slot for loose dowels, and then there was that other set of
> connectorst that looked like 4 dowels sitting next to each other that
> the router would cut the slot for. It certainly wasn't as quick or
> elegant as the Domino, but I never used that kind of joint except for
> a few projects.
>
> I think of how often that tool would be the >only< solution, or when I
> would be in such a hurry that I needed the extra time, and I'm not
> seeing a grand for a dedicted, one use tool. Then I saw the bits cost
> $50 or so a piece! Then, no generic bisquits! OUCH!
No, the bits are not quite "that" expensive. They fall in the $27-$30 each
depending on the size. The $200 you mentioned earlier if for 4, 1 of each
sized bits, 1100 assorteded tennons and a Systainer container. The
individual sized packages of tennons are pretty reasonable IMHO.
>
> No doubt if I was site building cabinets like we did in the old days I
> would have to have one of those when I could afford it. But for field
> or shop work... I dunno. What did I miss?
Have you seen one in person, touched one, felt its curves, seen the details
of all the levers and buttons? Have you picked it up, noticed how the green
and black compliment the silver trim? And don't get me started on the
carrying case. ;~)
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Does having a precise exact fitting loose tenon add much to the
strength of the joint? How much extra gluing surface to you get from
that corner compared to the flat sides of the loose tenon? Not much.
While the loose tennon is far superior and stronger than most other joints
and I agree that a tennon not filling the width is probably not too
important, to answer your question about the extra gluing surface, Because
the sides are round they will add more surface area than if all sides were
flat.
Taking the 10 x 24 x 50 domino tennon for an example, the short sides
collectively have a length of 31.4mm as compared to both wide sides having
collectively 48mm. So the narrower sides are a significant amount of the
possible glue surface.
IMHO this does not add much strength to keep the tennon from sliding in the
mortise as much as it would to keep the tennon from pulling out of the
mortise.
"bf" <[email protected]> wrote in message >>
> Leon,
>
> I used to hate shopvacs. I got one of the newer Rigid ones with noise
> reduction and now I actually use it. Obviously, it's not totally
> quiet, but you can actually use it without feeling the need for
> hearing protection.
>
> I think it was around $60 after a rebate.. Maybe the original price
> was $80.. Might be worth looking into. I actually like this shopvac.
>
>
>
>
Thanks, I'll keep that in mind.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> But if the Domino can do what you currently do in 1/10th or 1/100th
> the time, is it worth it? Speed in doing a decent, acceptable loose
> tenon joint is the key to the Domino.
For the exact same task that wold be a correct assumption. IIRC Robatoy
does a not of cabinet work and Face frames can be assembled just as quickly
using pocket hole screws with out having to wait on the glue to dry.
It all depends on what kind of work you are doing and how much you are being
paid for the job as to whether the Domino is a ecomomically good decision.
Snip
>>
>> But how is it going to do my job better.
>
> Faster. Easier. You will use the appropriate mortise and tenon joint
> more often than a weaker or less aesthetic joint.
In the long run the Domino is much slower than pocket hole screws and
requires lots of clamps and waiting for the glue to cure. On cabinet Face
frames pocket hole screws are plenty strong.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mar 26, 7:18 am, "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Mar 26, 8:29 am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > Have you seen one in person, touched one, felt its curves,[snip]
>>
>> Yup... Leon is toast... Tell us how you like it after it shows up in a
>> couple of days.
>>
>> *EG*
>>
>> r
>
> Yeah.... he's screwed!
>
Some people would call his irrational state being in love.
"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> It is all about priorities with me. I'd rather drop a g-note into my
> computer hardware. That doesn't mean I will never buy a Domino...I
> mean, come-on...who doesn't want one?
>
>
> r
>
LOL, heck Robatoy, computer hardware is obsolete almost before you install
it. The domino will probably last much much longer than that. LOL