OT: Democracy in Action

On 8/13/2011 1:19 PM, HeyBub wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>> On 8/11/2011 11:04 PM, HeyBub wrote:
>>> Han wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The counterargument is whether you'd want your kids to be educated
>>>> by high school teachers who make 40K/year.
>>>>
>>>> As far as the hours worked, from what I see my kids do, it is a
>>>> rather consuming job teaching math& physics in Paterson NJ and
>>>> similar districts. Apart from the miserable shape those
>>>> communities and kids are in, the hours of school and after school
>>>> efforts plus the hours of grading and lesson planning would have
>>>> exhausted me within a year. Glad it's not my job ...
>>>
>>> I taught high school chemistry and physics for two semesters and I
>>> can say with truth that dozens of teachers are underpaid. Tens of
>>> thousands more are grossly overpaid.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Switch to Chrome
>
> Chrome? You mean the nascent browser produced by Google?
>
> Not a chance. If it were worth beans, Microsoft would have bought it.
>
> And don't think my evaluation is biased just because I own a shit-load of
> Microsoft stock.


You obliviously have not tried it lately and if you think that Microsoft
buys everything that is good, they would have replaced IE many many many
years ago.

On 8/11/2011 12:44 PM, Han wrote:
> Swingman<[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> Since NJ was interjected into into conversation, can someone verify
>> that apparently the police union negotiated that police in NJ pay 1.5%
>> of their salary for health insurance?
>
> Googling "nj police health insurance contribution" comes up with a lot,
> but I can't easily corroborate that figure. The new rules for public
> employees may be something like this
> <http://www.cliffviewpilot.com/beyond/2488-how-nj-pension-and-health-
> reform-affects-you>:
> All employees must pay a portion of their premium, based on salary and
> using a sliding scale that starts at 3% of the premium for those making
> less than $25,000 a year and reaches 35% for those making $110,000 or
> more (the percentage changes for every $5,000 over $25,000).
>
>> For the median income ($90k+) mentioned earlier, that is less than
>> $150/mo.
>>
>> My wife and daughters is $800+/mo, and that is a bare bones policy
>> with a huge deductible.
>
> That is unconscionably high, and I hope some of that is deductible on
> your taxes. Can't you get a better plan, maybe via AARP or AAA?

Actually that is normal, do you have any idea how much the employer pays
for an employees insurance?


>
> OTOH, my coworker, who was screwed out of a salary (too long a story) for
> something like a year, while her husband was also not being paid, was
> paying over $1000/month for COBRA coverage in New York.
>
> At Weill Cornell health insurance is a great benefit. For myself and my
> spouse, when I worked full time, my contribution for medical, dental&
> vision was ~$212/month.

I can guarantee you that you were only paying a small percentage of the
total. When I was working for others I never had any deductions for my
insurance however being a check signer I knew full well what health
insurance was costing the company.

>
>> Pardon me while I sob a few tears ... for all of us. :(
>>
>> IIRC, this is EXACTLY what the issue in WI was about ... union choke
>> hold on public purse strings, bought and paid for by bought and paid
>> for politicians.
>
> The issue is really what the cost should be, and (red flag waving) I
> believe that the leveling of the costs for everyone under Obamacare is
> going to be a plus. Remeber, my insurance is now paying (in New York) a
> surcharge over the hospital costs of 8.5% to cover uninsured people.

Think about how much that is going to go up when you start footing the
whole bill, Fewer raises, smaller raises, higher taxes....

On 8/13/2011 10:16 PM, Bill wrote:
> Swingman wrote:


> Is is true that colleges are being run more and more like a business.
> Their survival partially depends on doing so, no?


Did you bother to read the referenced article that touches on that very
subject?

Pretty important to further meaningful dialogue, as it was the basis for
discussion.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Aug 11, 12:54=A0pm, Han <[email protected]> wrote:
> The counterargument is whether you'd want your kids to be educated by
> high school teachers who make 40K/year. =A0
>
> As far as the hours worked, from what I see my kids do, it is a rather
> consuming job teaching math & physics in Paterson NJ and similar
> districts. =A0Apart from the miserable shape those communities and kids a=
re
> in, the hours of school and after school efforts plus the hours of
> grading and lesson planning would have exhausted me within a year. =A0Gla=
d
> it's not my job ...
>

I am not saying that teachers or firemen or policemen or whomever do
not work hard. You want to know the truth? My son will be starting
his sophomore year at Penn State to become a high-school math
teacher. I know it is no bed of roses. But, at the same time, he is
not looking for a free ride.

That said, you mention that your kids started out at $40/K each four
years ago. Here is the thing: there are a number of people living in
that community who are paying taxes and are paying A LOT more for
health insurance and are paying into their own retirement accounts.

Like somebody mentioned before: nobody is taking anything away; they
are changing it for the future. It needs to be done. Sorry.

Somebody else mentioned the "security" part of it. That is gone ,
too. Yes, it is a sad thing but there is no security in the private
sector and, in a number of cases, the person doing the same job in the
public sector gets paid less than the one in the public sector NOW (it
was not like that before). It is upside down.

This slanted sort of thinking is exactly what brought Greece down and
is bringing a number of other European countries to their collective
knees. Take off the blinders and see. Both China and Iran are
licking their chops waiting to become the kingpin in a post-America
world. And that doesn't even count all the religious crap that is
going on.

As long as we fight amongst ourselves over this piddly crap, the
stronger the other side becomes.

On 8/12/2011 10:04 AM, Han wrote:

> Watch out Bryan, and ???

Trust me, if I thought we could get away with it, my people would
currently be talking to Leon's people, non stop!! :)

There are damn few twenty something males in this culture today that
aren't total doofuses ...

(My initial thought when meeting most of them is to reach over, grab
them by the collar, and slap the shit out of 'em to start as my
introduction) <g>

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Aug 11, 12:21=A0pm, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:

> Since NJ was interjected into into conversation, can someone verify that
> apparently the police union negotiated that police in NJ pay 1.5% of
> their salary for health insurance?
>
> For the median income ($90k+) mentioned earlier, that is less than $150/m=
o.
>
> My wife and daughters is $800+/mo, and that is a bare bones policy with
> a huge deductible.
>
> Pardon me while I sob a few tears ... for all of us. =A0:(
>
> IIRC, this is EXACTLY what the issue in WI was about ... union choke
> hold on public purse strings, bought and paid for by bought and paid for
> politicians.
>

Swingman, I can tell you this: the teachers in the school district I
live in went out on strike last year for six weeks. The labor dispute
was never settled. The teachers are looking to strike again this
year. One thing the school board asked for was an increase in the
healthcare insurance from 0.5% to 0.9% and the teachers were really up
in arms about that. They were also asked to teach six out of nine
periods instead of only five out of nine. I know some things like
Calculus and Physics and English composition papers are not the
easiest things to grade but it seems to me that t he teachers are
being given ample time to get a lot of that work done during the
school day. Sure, they need to bring work home. Many, many of us
white collar workers come in early; stay late; and work at home on
evenings, weekends, holidays, and vacations. That is EXPECTED of us.
Why not the teachers, too?

"busbus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:877f4539-dcad-4523-9b8e-ea7d4dedb7c2@q15g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 11, 8:18 am, Han <[email protected]> wrote:
> "You" have given these people contracts, that "you" now are going to just
> throw out? Once you go that way, maybe the next step is that your
> pension/SS/whatever will be taken away. "You" is in quotes because the
> sheeple of NJ have allowed their representatives to do this.
>

I just read this closer. To respond, I can unequivocably say that
pensions have been changed AND taken away from workers in the private
sector.

Whenever a person goes bankrupt, creditors will settle for pennies on
a dollar to at least get something. All levels of government are just
about bankrupt now and the "private sheeple" who are paying the bills
are requesting their representatives to work with the "public sheeple"
to renegotiate the contract. This sort of thing is not unheard of in
the private sector.

I say "sheeple" because they exist in both the private and public
sectors.

As far as honoring contracts are concerned, did you also agree that
the rich CEOs and other high-ranking executives should have been paid
the millions and millions of dollars that they were due in contracts
after the meltdown in 2008? I will bet you that you were one of those
people who complained that companies did that even though they were
honoring the contracts.


I don't dispute any of what you've said. However, as a retired firefighter,
I know of many who chose the profession solely because of the "security";
security that is now being surrendered because of mismanagement by the
......managers. The individuals in question usually had skills that would
have paid them more *in the short run* but chose a public service job
because of the proffered security.
I'm in favor of informing future applicants that the so-called security no
longer exists and they are well advised to take care of their own but a deal
is a deal and the "sheeple public" elected the "managers" so the fault
cannot be fairly placed entirely upon the public service workers. IMHO

Max

Swingman wrote:

> You know what my fucking school taxes are a month: $600 ... try
>> swallowing that.
------------------------------
Since you are running a business from a residential location, are you
being made to pay commerical tax rates rather than residential?

Wouldn't be the first time.

Lew
.

On Aug 11, 2:13=A0pm, Han <[email protected]> wrote:

> Some of that I can agree with. =A0OTOH, employee-employer relations are
> much more combative than they need to be, hence the unneccesary strikes
> (teachers can't strike in NJ, I believe). =A0The only thing they could do
> was not volunteer for after school work with the kids after years
> without contract.
>
> I'm all for reorganizing some of the work rules. =A0Especially the rule
> that says your pension is based on the average salary you made during
> your last (1,2,3?) years, includng overtime!! =A0That's ridiculous.
>

Han,

I am glad we are having a dialogue on this. I agree with your last
statement.

On 8/11/2011 8:01 PM, Han wrote:
> Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> On 8/11/2011 3:39 PM, Han wrote:
>>> Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>
>>>> On 8/11/2011 11:54 AM, Han wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The counterargument is whether you'd want your kids to be educated
>>>>> by high school teachers who make 40K/year.
>>>>
>>>> I was educated by teachers that made far less and were far superior
>>>> to most today. Our educational system throws more money at the
>>>> problem than ever and yet the results are far worse. A higher
>>>> salary is not going to get a better teacher. I guarantee you that
>>>> if all teachers were given a 50% raise today that in 5 years the
>>>> same teachers would still be teaching and the kids would not be
>>>> learning any more than they are right now. If you want the kids to
>>>> learn more the teachers will have to be held to a higher standard,
>>>> be re-certified periodically, and paid for their performance.
>>>
>>> Agree. Teachers should be more motivated (especially the ones doing
>>> it already for a long time) and kids should be more willing to learn.
>>> Ask the Brits were the parents were ...
>>>
>>> The work rules now stink. Get tenure, and you're practically set for
>>> life. OTOH, capricious or malicious firing is very difficult now.
>>> It goes both ways, but I agree, it should be easier to "grade"
>>> teachers and remunerate accordingly. Of course, if you get dealt a
>>> bunch of really unruly and stupid kids one year, life sucks.
>>
>> I often think and believe that we are in this lousy situation because
>> 95% of us live beyond our means. Yes I can afford that house if I get
>> a 40 year mortgage with interest only/no principal on the front 10
>> years but should I? If only the schools would teach and require
>> students to learn the true cost of borrowing money, how to make good
>> financial decisions, and learn that borrowing money should be done as
>> a last resort. This is absolutely as important as any subject being
>> taught in school. With few exceptions if you have to borrow money to
>> buy something you probably need to reevaluate you life style. If the
>> wife works to help make ends meet you need to reevaluate your life
>> style. IMHO one parent needs to stay home, plain and simple. When
>> both parents are working, WHO is watching the kids????? The teachers
>> would have a lot more success in teaching if a parent was at home when
>> the kids got home.
>
> Rant well-taken. My mother was always home, and so was my wife's, but
> her mother is another story. (See, it doesn't always work the way it
> should). For us, we both had to bring in money if we wanted to live.
> When the kids came, my wife went into daycare (times were easier on the
> regulations way back then, but the pay was lower too). At first, we had
> had a babysitter, but after the third time that she said, by the way,
> next Monday you have to find someone else because I quit, my wife started
> to take in kids. Then we moved to New York, and we got a babysitter.
> Wife went to work early, I dropped the kids off later, and my wife picked
> them up around 4. Made for less family time, but it worked well. Both
> my kids became good people. So, that situation also can work. Now, both
> my daughter and SIL have to work, and my wife wlks over in the morning to
> help the granddaughters off to school, and is back there when they come
> home. We think they'll be big enough to be a few hours after school by
> themselves, and if not, the other grandparents live arounf the corner and
> can do something too.
>


My wife and I had our first and only child after being married 6 years.
She was always ready, I was not, but it was meant to happen. almost 24
years ago our son was born. We did the personal baby sitter/nanny thing
and that led to day care, private school/day care, and then one day when
our son, Bryan, was 7 and in a private school I had had enough of my
job, I hated it. I have always been in automotive management, I had my
own tire store at 21. The last formal job I had I was the GM of a
wholesale AC/Delco distributor. Finally I said I had had enough and
turned in my resignation, I was asked to take a 2 week vacation and
reconsider, I came back an quit.

I became the at home parent and began this custom design and furniture
building business at home to keep me busy. Not going to a job every day
went against every survival instinct that I had. We probably took a 60%
income cut when I quit working the 9 to 5 routine. My son immediately
started going to public schools when he started third grade. He had a
great teacher that helped him transition from an 8 student classroom to
a 35 student class room. Bryan did well in school, strictly an A,B
student, certainly better than his parents ever did in school but my
wife and I had to battle with the incompetent teachers that would take
home work and immediately throw it in the trash can because some one was
out of line. We saw this type teacher behavior time and again and had
one on ones with the principal and teacher way too often. All of the
students were treated this way but we seemed to be the only parents that
cared. I was the first to tell the teacher that I wanted to hear of any
problems that my son might be causing, that never happened. Teachers
would seek us out at PTA meetings to compliment us on how well behaved
Bryan was. I don't think so much that we did any thing special other
than one of us was at home every day when Bryan came home from school.
Other kids did not have that benefit.

Bryan flourished. He was invited to attend a special high school in a
poor school district. We thank God for that school and the
opportunities Bryan had at that school. Unlike the typical baby sitter
school this school was by invitation only. This school operated much
like a college and many of the students had a hard time coping with the
first few weeks of school. Each class passed out the semester itinerary
and it was totally up to the student to perform all the work, attend the
seminars, and schedule their own tests. The school taught time
management and responsibility. College bound graduates consistently
averaged above 97%. This school was not looking for smart kids, as the
only requirement to attend was that applicants conduct grade be
satisfactory or better. On the other hand, the teachers had to have
much better qualifications to teach at that school. There was never a
shortage of teachers waiting in the wings to fill a position should one
come up.

College was an easy transition for Bryan, because of his SAT scores, so
so in the grammar/English section, pretty high in the math section, he
was invited to apply to the Honors College at the U of H. He, shall we
say, was lucky to be accepted. I warned him that the curriculum would
be more rigorous but the benefits would be long lasting. He made his
first C his first semester. That never happened again. Three of his
professors tried to get him to change his major including a strong offer
to go towards working on his doctorate and teaching at the college.
Another wanted him to change to investment management, and another
wanted him to work towards a federal tax degree. He stayed the course
and ended up graduating with a bachelors in Accountancy, Summa Cum
Laude. One year later he had his Masters degree, 4 months later he had
filled all requirements to become a CPA except the for the required year
of work experience. He passed all 4 CPA exams with a 94 average, first try.

Today, 10 months later he has almost gotten his year behind him and he
works for KPMG. They recruited him in January of 2009 and he went to
work "very full time" last October. He loves his job although he does
have long hours during the busy season, Jan -April. He logs
approximately 300 -350 hours per month during that period. Not unusual
for him to work 7 days a week, get home at 1:00-2:00 am and be back at
work at 7:00am.

I attribute a lot of his of his success to good work ethic and some one
being at home when he got home from school.

Bryan is still single, is a home owner and hopes to be "totally" debt
free by the end of next year. Not too bad for a 23 year old guy.


OK,OK,OK, I'll stop bragging! I've had TWO beers. ;~)

On Aug 11, 2:07=A0pm, Han <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Teaching 6 periods rather than 5 is a 20% increase in teaching load,
> right? =A0I'd be upset about that too, if my take home pay was cut on top
> of that. =A0And as an "exempt" employee at a university, I know a little
> about staying late, and working weekends etc.
>
>

Hans,

The 20% increase in workload is not the point. I guess I was focusing
on all the down time they have now. Until this came up in the
negotiations and it was made public, I never in a million years would
have thought that they only worked a little over 50% of the school
day. They say they need that time to grade papers and exams and
homework and such. I understand. Really. I do. But I don't know of
any other profession who is given that amount of "free time" at work.

And I sort of hate to say it but I know a number of people who work at
colleges. Two of them were fellow employees back in the day when I
was laid off--they were laid off, too, during the same downturn and we
were all int he same IT group. They say it is like they died and went
to heaven working at a college. The one guy said the most stress he
has is whenever payroll runs an he is in charge of payroll. He has
had exactly zero production problems in almost eight years in
payroll. The most stress he has is whenever he has keep an eye on the
jobs over weekends. if that is the limit to his stress, please, give
it to me.

I will trade you a year here, Han, for a year in your university. I
don't think you have been called while you were on the beach and had
to cut it short to go back and log into work for hours very often. or
called at all hours of the night because the system crashed, worked
3-4 hours, then had to go to work the next day at normal time
(probably due to the crash). I don't think I worked an eight hour day
in many years, let alone a 40-hour week!

On Aug 11, 8:18=A0am, Han <[email protected]> wrote:
> "You" have given these people contracts, that "you" now are going to just
> throw out? =A0Once you go that way, maybe the next step is that your
> pension/SS/whatever will be taken away. =A0"You" is in quotes because the
> sheeple of NJ have allowed their representatives to do this.
>

I just read this closer. To respond, I can unequivocably say that
pensions have been changed AND taken away from workers in the private
sector.

Whenever a person goes bankrupt, creditors will settle for pennies on
a dollar to at least get something. All levels of government are just
about bankrupt now and the "private sheeple" who are paying the bills
are requesting their representatives to work with the "public sheeple"
to renegotiate the contract. This sort of thing is not unheard of in
the private sector.

I say "sheeple" because they exist in both the private and public
sectors.

As far as honoring contracts are concerned, did you also agree that
the rich CEOs and other high-ranking executives should have been paid
the millions and millions of dollars that they were due in contracts
after the meltdown in 2008? I will bet you that you were one of those
people who complained that companies did that even though they were
honoring the contracts.

On 8/11/2011 4:28 PM, Han wrote:
> Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> So not putting in a full day is OK??? Wish I could come in late and
>> leave early and have the summer off. How about making all teachers
>> more productive by putting in a full day and letting all of them keep
>> their jobs.
>
> When I see my daughter and SIL come home from a day's teaaching, I can
> clearly see they put in a whole day's work. Maybe there are those who
> just pretend to work, but I believe most are doing right.

I believe "some" are being paid what they are worth oters are being baby
sitters.


>
> Yes, they may have the summer off. They don't get paid then, or at least
> thay have the choice to get paid full pay during school, and nothing
> during the summer, or to have it spread out.

I think a good teacher would know that being paid as he or she has
earned the money takes more responsibility and thinking ahead than
having the school holding on to your money so that you don't spend it
all and have nothing over the summer. The teachers that cannot budget
themselves to not spend every dime they make while working during the
school year are not the ones I want teaching my child. I would rather
have a teacher that teaches common sense than one that is highly
educated but can't make it on the salary that he or she has agreed to.
If you cannot make it on your own what good is that education?



My SIL is a bridge fanatic,
> so he is earning extra money in the summer playing professional bridge.
> No idea how that works exactly, but hopefully he brings in enough so I
> don't really have to supplement them.

???

>
>>> Yes, times are tough, for everyone. That's when you want teaching to
>>> be done well, and you should be willing to pay for that.
>>
>> We are paying for that! We are not gettin g what we are paying for.
>
> In some cases, indeed you're not getting what you pay for. That's not
> acceptable, and work rules need to change. In other cases, teachers are
> NOT rewarded enough for their work.

A majority of teachers ARE rewarded enough for their work and for many
more than enough. A select few are NOT rewarded enough. IMHO. ;~)

SconnieRoadie <[email protected]> wrote:
> Keep your eyes on the recalls in Wisconsin Tuesday. Wisconsin has
> always been a progressive state, even under Republicans.
>
> But the swing with the election of Scott Walker to the governorship
> was toward a whole new direction, one that slashes and burns social
> programs while shoveling money at business. My characterization is
> not out of line with the reality.
>
> Whether or not this strategy would be ultimately "successful" -
> whatever that means to the authors of it - I hope we never have to
> find out.
>
> I hope the recalls succeed and reason is restored. Because we need to
> drag this country back from corporatocracy. This is a key battle and
> people who believe in the greater good need to recognize the threat
> and make themselves heard.

Viewing the results, apparently folks aren't as stupid as msnbc makes them
out to be, eh?

--
www.ewoodshop.com

On 8/12/2011 9:08 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
> In article<[email protected]>, Swingman<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> In short, the educational system in this country was originally
>> instituted to provide an education ... it has now been subverted, mostly
>> by progressive machinations (union, etc.), to be _primarily_ concerned
>> with its own perpetuation in current form.
>
> "If an unfriendly foreign power had attempted to impose on America the
> mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed
> it as an act of war." -- A Nation at Risk (April 1983)
>
> http://www2.ed.gov/pubs/NatAtRisk/risk.html
>

Great link!

> And it has only gotten worse since then.

Damned shame that after almost 30 years nothing has been accomplished,
overall, to improve the situation.

As the parent of an Eagle Scout, IIRC, I'm sure you are painfully aware
of the situation and took the same kind of steps aforementioned.

All one has to do is take a look at the sorry conditions of the school
system in Detroit, MI.

To put the blame for that fiasco on anything other than progressive
educational dogma, which has been the ONLY guiding factor in Detroit for
the past 40 years, is patently ridiculous.

... and true to form, Rachel Maddow, on MSNBC the other night, blamed
the sorry state of the Detroit schools, and in particular the closing of
a High School for pregnant girsl in Detroit, on "conservatives"!

Go farking figure ...

We don't have a chance with both extremes trumpeting that kind of
totally irresponsible journalism.

(Yes ... I watch MSNBC nightly just to get a picture of both extremes, I
already know what divisive BS is being slobbered in the public trough
from the other extreme)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 8/11/2011 7:18 AM, Han wrote:

> I don't know where you live, but in NJ the legislature has consistently
> allowed the state NOT to pay into the teachers' (police/whatever) pension
> plans. Now, gov christie says, OK, you teachers need to pay more, but
> what of the unfunded state obligations? It almost seems that the state
> stealing from the pension plans is OK, and the pensioners better fend for
> themselves.

Police don't seem to be hurting:

"The median salary for the state’s 20,525 municipal officers was $90,672
last year, meaning half earned more and half earned less.

A total of 6,198 municipal officers made at least $100,000 last year.
Ninety-nine of 466 towns that pay police have six-figure median
salaries. Most are in North Jersey, primarily Bergen County"

That's twice the US median household income (read two wage earners) paid
by the taxpayer.

"Any police officer that says they’re not making enough money needs to
re-examine themselves," said Saddle Brook Township Police Chief Robert
Kugler. In that Bergen County town, 30 of 31 officers made six figures
last year, and the median salary was $121,177.

Police say their salaries reflect New Jersey’s high cost of living,
years of experience on the job and union contracts allowing officers to
quickly rise to the top of the pay scale. They also say they have
recently made sacrifices in union negotiations and are being forced to
pay more toward their health care."

Making that kind of money, seems like they could afford to pay more
toward their health care and their pension plans?

Poor babies ... As a taxpayer who makes no where that, I simply can
barely afford any kind of healthcare for my family.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 8/12/2011 12:37 PM, Bill wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>> On 8/12/2011 10:04 AM, Han wrote:
>>
>>> Watch out Bryan, and ???
>>
>> Trust me, if I thought we could get away with it, my people would
>> currently be talking to Leon's people, non stop!! :)
>>
>> There are damn few twenty something males in this culture today that
>> aren't total doofuses ...
>
> I didn't look it up. By "doofuses" do you mean glued to their
> technology, have too much moose in their hair, that they are
> pre-occupied with video games, or something else? I don't know enough
> 20-something males to offer much of an opinion.
>
>>
>> (My initial thought when meeting most of them is to reach over, grab
>> them by the collar, and slap the shit out of 'em to start as my
>> introduction) <g>
>>
>

Darn instead of Damn

Doofus instead of Dipshit

On 8/11/2011 8:28 AM, busbus wrote:

> Beside, pension and health care insurance costs are breaking the backs
> of the public. We who are contributing to the GNP in this country are
> paying ever escalating costs for our own retirement and health care
> AND we are expected to pay for the people who work in public unions.

Since NJ was interjected into into conversation, can someone verify that
apparently the police union negotiated that police in NJ pay 1.5% of
their salary for health insurance?

For the median income ($90k+) mentioned earlier, that is less than $150/mo.

My wife and daughters is $800+/mo, and that is a bare bones policy with
a huge deductible.

Pardon me while I sob a few tears ... for all of us. :(

IIRC, this is EXACTLY what the issue in WI was about ... union choke
hold on public purse strings, bought and paid for by bought and paid for
politicians.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 8/8/2011 7:03 PM, SconnieRoadie wrote:

> I hope the recalls succeed and reason is restored. Because we need to
> drag this country back from corporatocracy. This is a key battle and
> people who believe in the greater good need to recognize the threat
> and make themselves heard.

Perfect manifestation of divide and conquer by the folks who play the
game to game the folks.

Asshats one and all ... both sides should be ashamed.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 8/12/2011 8:36 AM, Robatoy wrote:
> On Aug 12, 12:46 am, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>> On 8/11/2011 8:01 PM, Han wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
>>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>>> On 8/11/2011 3:39 PM, Han wrote:
>>>>> Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
>>>>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>>>>> On 8/11/2011 11:54 AM, Han wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> The counterargument is whether you'd want your kids to be educated
>>>>>>> by high school teachers who make 40K/year.
>>
>>>>>> I was educated by teachers that made far less and were far superior
>>>>>> to most today. Our educational system throws more money at the
>>>>>> problem than ever and yet the results are far worse. A higher
>>>>>> salary is not going to get a better teacher. I guarantee you that
>>>>>> if all teachers were given a 50% raise today that in 5 years the
>>>>>> same teachers would still be teaching and the kids would not be
>>>>>> learning any more than they are right now. If you want the kids to
>>>>>> learn more the teachers will have to be held to a higher standard,
>>>>>> be re-certified periodically, and paid for their performance.
>>
>>>>> Agree. Teachers should be more motivated (especially the ones doing
>>>>> it already for a long time) and kids should be more willing to learn.
>>>>> Ask the Brits were the parents were ...
>>
>>>>> The work rules now stink. Get tenure, and you're practically set for
>>>>> life. OTOH, capricious or malicious firing is very difficult now.
>>>>> It goes both ways, but I agree, it should be easier to "grade"
>>>>> teachers and remunerate accordingly. Of course, if you get dealt a
>>>>> bunch of really unruly and stupid kids one year, life sucks.
>>
>>>> I often think and believe that we are in this lousy situation because
>>>> 95% of us live beyond our means. Yes I can afford that house if I get
>>>> a 40 year mortgage with interest only/no principal on the front 10
>>>> years but should I? If only the schools would teach and require
>>>> students to learn the true cost of borrowing money, how to make good
>>>> financial decisions, and learn that borrowing money should be done as
>>>> a last resort. This is absolutely as important as any subject being
>>>> taught in school. With few exceptions if you have to borrow money to
>>>> buy something you probably need to reevaluate you life style. If the
>>>> wife works to help make ends meet you need to reevaluate your life
>>>> style. IMHO one parent needs to stay home, plain and simple. When
>>>> both parents are working, WHO is watching the kids????? The teachers
>>>> would have a lot more success in teaching if a parent was at home when
>>>> the kids got home.
>>
>>> Rant well-taken. My mother was always home, and so was my wife's, but
>>> her mother is another story. (See, it doesn't always work the way it
>>> should). For us, we both had to bring in money if we wanted to live.
>>> When the kids came, my wife went into daycare (times were easier on the
>>> regulations way back then, but the pay was lower too). At first, we had
>>> had a babysitter, but after the third time that she said, by the way,
>>> next Monday you have to find someone else because I quit, my wife started
>>> to take in kids. Then we moved to New York, and we got a babysitter.
>>> Wife went to work early, I dropped the kids off later, and my wife picked
>>> them up around 4. Made for less family time, but it worked well. Both
>>> my kids became good people. So, that situation also can work. Now, both
>>> my daughter and SIL have to work, and my wife wlks over in the morning to
>>> help the granddaughters off to school, and is back there when they come
>>> home. We think they'll be big enough to be a few hours after school by
>>> themselves, and if not, the other grandparents live arounf the corner and
>>> can do something too.
>>
>> My wife and I had our first and only child after being married 6 years.
>> She was always ready, I was not, but it was meant to happen. almost 24
>> years ago our son was born. We did the personal baby sitter/nanny thing
>> and that led to day care, private school/day care, and then one day when
>> our son, Bryan, was 7 and in a private school I had had enough of my
>> job, I hated it. I have always been in automotive management, I had my
>> own tire store at 21. The last formal job I had I was the GM of a
>> wholesale AC/Delco distributor. Finally I said I had had enough and
>> turned in my resignation, I was asked to take a 2 week vacation and
>> reconsider, I came back an quit.
>>
>> I became the at home parent and began this custom design and furniture
>> building business at home to keep me busy. Not going to a job every day
>> went against every survival instinct that I had. We probably took a 60%
>> income cut when I quit working the 9 to 5 routine. My son immediately
>> started going to public schools when he started third grade. He had a
>> great teacher that helped him transition from an 8 student classroom to
>> a 35 student class room. Bryan did well in school, strictly an A,B
>> student, certainly better than his parents ever did in school but my
>> wife and I had to battle with the incompetent teachers that would take
>> home work and immediately throw it in the trash can because some one was
>> out of line. We saw this type teacher behavior time and again and had
>> one on ones with the principal and teacher way too often. All of the
>> students were treated this way but we seemed to be the only parents that
>> cared. I was the first to tell the teacher that I wanted to hear of any
>> problems that my son might be causing, that never happened. Teachers
>> would seek us out at PTA meetings to compliment us on how well behaved
>> Bryan was. I don't think so much that we did any thing special other
>> than one of us was at home every day when Bryan came home from school.
>> Other kids did not have that benefit.
>>
>> Bryan flourished. He was invited to attend a special high school in a
>> poor school district. We thank God for that school and the
>> opportunities Bryan had at that school. Unlike the typical baby sitter
>> school this school was by invitation only. This school operated much
>> like a college and many of the students had a hard time coping with the
>> first few weeks of school. Each class passed out the semester itinerary
>> and it was totally up to the student to perform all the work, attend the
>> seminars, and schedule their own tests. The school taught time
>> management and responsibility. College bound graduates consistently
>> averaged above 97%. This school was not looking for smart kids, as the
>> only requirement to attend was that applicants conduct grade be
>> satisfactory or better. On the other hand, the teachers had to have
>> much better qualifications to teach at that school. There was never a
>> shortage of teachers waiting in the wings to fill a position should one
>> come up.
>>
>> College was an easy transition for Bryan, because of his SAT scores, so
>> so in the grammar/English section, pretty high in the math section, he
>> was invited to apply to the Honors College at the U of H. He, shall we
>> say, was lucky to be accepted. I warned him that the curriculum would
>> be more rigorous but the benefits would be long lasting. He made his
>> first C his first semester. That never happened again. Three of his
>> professors tried to get him to change his major including a strong offer
>> to go towards working on his doctorate and teaching at the college.
>> Another wanted him to change to investment management, and another
>> wanted him to work towards a federal tax degree. He stayed the course
>> and ended up graduating with a bachelors in Accountancy, Summa Cum
>> Laude. One year later he had his Masters degree, 4 months later he had
>> filled all requirements to become a CPA except the for the required year
>> of work experience. He passed all 4 CPA exams with a 94 average, first try.
>>
>> Today, 10 months later he has almost gotten his year behind him and he
>> works for KPMG. They recruited him in January of 2009 and he went to
>> work "very full time" last October. He loves his job although he does
>> have long hours during the busy season, Jan -April. He logs
>> approximately 300 -350 hours per month during that period. Not unusual
>> for him to work 7 days a week, get home at 1:00-2:00 am and be back at
>> work at 7:00am.
>>
>> I attribute a lot of his of his success to good work ethic and some one
>> being at home when he got home from school.
>>
>> Bryan is still single, is a home owner and hopes to be "totally" debt
>> free by the end of next year. Not too bad for a 23 year old guy.
>>
>> OK,OK,OK, I'll stop bragging! I've had TWO beers. ;~)
>
> Hey, I don't two beers to brag. I'm proud of my 3 girls. 2 of them
> are playing with nuclear generators and the youngest off to college
> next Sept. She just aced her grade 11 final in math.... MUCH to our
> surprise.
> Angela just finished her Masters so the academic atmosphere has proven
> fertile grounds for the youngest to give it an extra push. Monkey see
> monkey do.

Excellent examples the two of you have set! Girls are easy, right; ;~0

On 8/12/2011 8:22 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 8/11/2011 11:46 PM, Leon wrote:
snip


> You can proffer opinions to the contrary until you're blue in the face,
> my friends ... but you can NOT overcome the ACTUAL fact of the
> deplorable state of the educational system in this country today!
>
> Again: "Parental involvement" ... hardly any kid succeeds without it today.
>
>> Bryan is still single, is a home owner and hopes to be "totally" debt
>> free by the end of next year. Not too bad for a 23 year old guy.
>
> About that "arranged marriage" seminar that is upcoming ... :~)

I can not think of a better way to produce good grand kids. ;~)

Han wrote:
>
> There is a law in Wisconsin that makes legislators immune from recall
> during their first year. Therefore, the decisive recalls will come
> later. I am not sure that organized labor isn't featherbedding some
> of their members, but generally speaking, undoing labor contracts in
> such a fell swoop to such an extent is not fair. My daughter and
> son-in-law are both high school teachers in NJ, and the changes in
> their remuneration (much higher deductions for healthcare and
> pensions) makes them feel lucky they have help nearby.

Nobody's labor contract got "undone." Previous labor contracts are still in
force. The only change was that "new" contracts could not be based on
collective bargaining.

The "average" pay for teachers in New Jersey is in excess of $63,000. Even
in the Garden State, your daughter's family should be able to subsist on a
piddly $130,000 per year.

Heck, they could even supplement this meager income by making Slurpees in
the summer months.

On 8/11/2011 11:46 PM, Leon wrote:

<snip of the key to educating a child>

> I attribute a lot of his of his success to good work ethic and some one
> being at home when he got home from school.

"Parental involvement" ... hardly any kid succeeds without it today.

We personally met everyone of my kid's teachers from K-12; had weekly,
if not daily, note/email correspondence with them; confirmed every
parent/teach appt and ARD meeting (and, when it appeared necessary, in
writing, with a letter indicating we may be represented by legal counsel
.. it was indeed necessary on occasions and it insured they would pay
attention, and by gawd they did!); and Mom was seen several time a week,
walking the halls and visiting with the teachers.

The rationale was that they were educating our kid, we were paying for
the education, and we believed in letting them know, in no uncertain
terms, that we, as involved parents, demanded stellar performance out of
both the kid, _and the teacher_.

Although my youngest was "main stream", she was a special education kid,
with an above average IQ, who, simply due to a severe learning
disability, required alternative methods to gauge the depth of what she
actually learned from her school work. It was amazing how many teachers
balked at the (legal) requirement for them to do so.

It is certain that without the actions in the first paragraph above,
this kid would not have ever gone on to college (as she did), and would
have fallen through the ever widening cracks in the educational system.

In short, the educational system in this country was originally
instituted to provide an education ... it has now been subverted, mostly
by progressive machinations (union, etc.), to be _primarily_ concerned
with its own perpetuation in current form.

You can proffer opinions to the contrary until you're blue in the face,
my friends ... but you can NOT overcome the ACTUAL fact of the
deplorable state of the educational system in this country today!

Again: "Parental involvement" ... hardly any kid succeeds without it today.

> Bryan is still single, is a home owner and hopes to be "totally" debt
> free by the end of next year. Not too bad for a 23 year old guy.

About that "arranged marriage" seminar that is upcoming ... :~)

> OK,OK,OK, I'll stop bragging! I've had TWO beers. ;~)

You're authorized, Bubba.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> Leon wrote:
> > On 8/11/2011 11:04 PM, HeyBub wrote:
> >> Han wrote:
> >>>
> >>> The counterargument is whether you'd want your kids to be educated
> >>> by high school teachers who make 40K/year.
> >>>
> >>> As far as the hours worked, from what I see my kids do, it is a
> >>> rather consuming job teaching math& physics in Paterson NJ and
> >>> similar districts. Apart from the miserable shape those
> >>> communities and kids are in, the hours of school and after school
> >>> efforts plus the hours of grading and lesson planning would have
> >>> exhausted me within a year. Glad it's not my job ...
> >>
> >> I taught high school chemistry and physics for two semesters and I
> >> can say with truth that dozens of teachers are underpaid. Tens of
> >> thousands more are grossly overpaid.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Switch to Chrome
>
> Chrome? You mean the nascent browser produced by Google?
>
> Not a chance. If it were worth beans, Microsoft would have bought it.
>
> And don't think my evaluation is biased just because I own a shit-load of
> Microsoft stock.

Actually Chrome has higher compatibility with the current release of
HTML5 than does Internet Explorer.

Microsoft hasn't bought it because Google isn't trying to sell it, and
Microsoft is not big enough to buy Google.

Give it a shot, you'll be surprised at how good it is. I was. The fact
is that the past few releases of IE have been pretty well hosed.

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
> Han wrote:
> > Swingman<[email protected]> wrote in
> > news:[email protected]:
> >
> >> On 8/13/2011 9:40 AM, Leon wrote:
> >>
> >>> Totally agree with that article you posted the link to, especially
> >>> the Honors College comments, The students get first pick at the
> >>> professors and have much smaller more personal classes.
> >>
> >> It's hard to believe that 70% of the undergraduate classes at most
> >> universities are now taught by outsourced, "paid-by-the-course",
> >> adjunct professors!
> >>
> >> A sad state of affairs ... this corporate model of teaching was
> >> unheard of in my day.
> >>
> >> Might as well get some of that "discount knowledge from the local
> >> community college", if it's the same folks doing the teaching!
> >>
> >> Hell, at this rate it won't be long before Haji's teaching physics at
> >> Harvard ... from a call center in New Delhi.
> >
> > Very few full professors were teaching when my kids went to university
> > (Columbia) 15 or more years ago.
>
> That ship doesn't fly as well as it used to, though there are exceptions.

Interesting if true that undergraduate courses are now taught by adjunct
faculty. Used to be taught by grad students under the supervision of a
faculty member.

> Even when I went (Holland, almost 50
> > years ago), only some were. Interestingly, some were giants in their
> > fields. Now if I could only remember their names ...
> >
> >

On 8/11/2011 11:35 AM, Han wrote:
> Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> On 8/11/2011 7:18 AM, Han wrote:
>>> busbus<[email protected]> wrote in news:a4c2d470-9f4e-471b-8da5-
>>> [email protected]:
>>>
>>>> On Aug 10, 9:37 pm, Han<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not sure that organized labor isn't featherbedding some of
>>>>> their members, but generally speaking, undoing labor contracts in
>>>>> such a fell swoop to such an extent is not fair. My daughter and
>>>>> son-in- law are
>>>>> both high school teachers in NJ, and the changes in their
>>>>> remuneration (much higher deductions for healthcare and pensions)
>>>>> makes them feel lucky they have help nearby.
>>>>
>>>> But making us poor slobs in the community where the teachers work
>>>> pay more and more and more in taxes whenever our health care
>>>> insurance costs go up and up and up and our gross pay stays the same
>>>> and being told pensions are a thing of the past is FAIR somehow??
>>>
>>> "You" have given these people contracts, that "you" now are going to
>>> just throw out? Once you go that way, maybe the next step is that
>>> your pension/SS/whatever will be taken away. "You" is in quotes
>>> because the sheeple of NJ have allowed their representatives to do
>>> this.
>>>
>>> I don't know where you live, but in NJ the legislature has
>>> consistently allowed the state NOT to pay into the teachers'
>>> (police/whatever) pension plans. Now, gov christie says, OK, you
>>> teachers need to pay more, but what of the unfunded state
>>> obligations? It almost seems that the state stealing from the
>>> pension plans is OK, and the pensioners better fend for themselves.
>>
>> If the contract seems too good to be true.... A contract with the
>> state is in essence a contract with a pollination. Now days the young
>> starting out better be responsible and depend on their own resources
>> to fund their pensions.
>
> ?pollination?? Some would think that a fringe benefit like a pension
> from a (quasi)governmental organization should be trustworthy. That is a
> rude awakening around here.


Yeah Pollinations... LOL Thank you spell checker,,,,

30 years ago maybe but the government spends way more than it takes in
and it stops some where.

On 8/11/2011 11:04 PM, HeyBub wrote:
> Han wrote:
>>
>> The counterargument is whether you'd want your kids to be educated by
>> high school teachers who make 40K/year.
>>
>> As far as the hours worked, from what I see my kids do, it is a rather
>> consuming job teaching math& physics in Paterson NJ and similar
>> districts. Apart from the miserable shape those communities and kids
>> are in, the hours of school and after school efforts plus the hours of
>> grading and lesson planning would have exhausted me within a year.
>> Glad it's not my job ...
>
> I taught high school chemistry and physics for two semesters and I can say
> with truth that dozens of teachers are underpaid. Tens of thousands more are
> grossly overpaid.
>
>

Switch to Chrome

On 8/11/2011 3:24 PM, Han wrote:
> Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> On 8/11/2011 1:07 PM, Han wrote:
>>> busbus<[email protected]> wrote in
>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>
>>>> On Aug 11, 12:21 pm, Swingman<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Since NJ was interjected into into conversation, can someone verify
>>>>> that apparently the police union negotiated that police in NJ pay
>>>>> 1.5% of their salary for health insurance?
>>>>>
>>>>> For the median income ($90k+) mentioned earlier, that is less than
>>>>> $150/m
>>>> o.
>>>>>
>>>>> My wife and daughters is $800+/mo, and that is a bare bones policy
>>>>> with a huge deductible.
>>>>>
>>>>> Pardon me while I sob a few tears ... for all of us. :(
>>>>>
>>>>> IIRC, this is EXACTLY what the issue in WI was about ... union
>>>>> choke hold on public purse strings, bought and paid for by bought
>>>>> and paid for politicians.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Swingman, I can tell you this: the teachers in the school district I
>>>> live in went out on strike last year for six weeks. The labor
>>>> dispute was never settled. The teachers are looking to strike again
>>>> this year. One thing the school board asked for was an increase in
>>>> the healthcare insurance from 0.5% to 0.9% and the teachers were
>>>> really up in arms about that. They were also asked to teach six out
>>>> of nine periods instead of only five out of nine. I know some
>>>> things like Calculus and Physics and English composition papers are
>>>> not the easiest things to grade but it seems to me that t he
>>>> teachers are being given ample time to get a lot of that work done
>>>> during the school day. Sure, they need to bring work home. Many,
>>>> many of us white collar workers come in early; stay late; and work
>>>> at home on evenings, weekends, holidays, and vacations. That is
>>>> EXPECTED of us. Why not the teachers, too?
>>>
>>> Teaching 6 periods rather than 5 is a 20% increase in teaching load,
>>> right? I'd be upset about that too, if my take home pay was cut on
>>> top of that. And as an "exempt" employee at a university, I know a
>>> little about staying late, and working weekends etc.
>>>
>>
>>
>> But teaching 5 out of 9 periods is only 55% of the time you are
>> there.
>> I don't see that as an increase, I see that as being more productive
>> during the time that you are at work.
>>
>> Sure you have to do more work as opposed to what you were told you
>> would have do. Join the crowd. Economic times are tough. If every
>> one does not pitch in an do more the cream is going to rise to the top
>> and they are going to be the ones that keep their jobs. Those that
>> complain and or do the least will be replaced, simple economics.
>
> The teachers do not always have to be there first or last period. And
> teaching a class is really more work than supervising cafeteria or some
> such. Basically, if the school can make teachers 20% more productive,
> they need to pay 20% fewer teachers.

So not putting in a full day is OK??? Wish I could come in late and
leave early and have the summer off. How about making all teachers more
productive by putting in a full day and letting all of them keep their jobs.

>
> Yes, times are tough, for everyone. That's when you want teaching to be
> done well, and you should be willing to pay for that.

We are paying for that! We are not gettin g what we are paying for.

SconnieRoadie wrote:
> Keep your eyes on the recalls in Wisconsin Tuesday. Wisconsin has
> always been a progressive state, even under Republicans.
>
> But the swing with the election of Scott Walker to the governorship
> was toward a whole new direction, one that slashes and burns social
> programs while shoveling money at business. My characterization is
> not out of line with the reality.
>
> Whether or not this strategy would be ultimately "successful" -
> whatever that means to the authors of it - I hope we never have to
> find out.
>
> I hope the recalls succeed and reason is restored. Because we need to
> drag this country back from corporatocracy. This is a key battle and
> people who believe in the greater good need to recognize the threat
> and make themselves heard.
>

Hmm. Wisconsin has certainly been in the news, though not for the reasons
you mention. The big fight was over collective bargaining with public
employee unions. How you get from that to dismantling social programs is a
link I'd be very much interested in seeing.

I'd also like some kind of explanation about "shoveling money at business."

On 8/12/2011 5:21 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
> In article<[email protected]>, Swingman<[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 8/12/2011 9:08 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
>>> In article<[email protected]>,
>> Swingman<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In short, the educational system in this country was originally
>>>> instituted to provide an education ... it has now been subverted, mostly
>>>> by progressive machinations (union, etc.), to be _primarily_ concerned
>>>> with its own perpetuation in current form.
>>>
>>> "If an unfriendly foreign power had attempted to impose on America the
>>> mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed
>>> it as an act of war." -- A Nation at Risk (April 1983)
>>>
>>> http://www2.ed.gov/pubs/NatAtRisk/risk.html
>>>
>>
>> Great link!
>>
>>> And it has only gotten worse since then.
>>
>> Damned shame that after almost 30 years nothing has been accomplished,
>> overall, to improve the situation.
>>
>> As the parent of an Eagle Scout, IIRC, I'm sure you are painfully aware
>> of the situation and took the same kind of steps aforementioned.
>
> You do recall correctly. I even have a bumper sticker on my car: "I'm proud of
> my Eagle Scout".
>
> And yes, we did. His older brother went to public school for the first two
> years, and part of second grade -- after that, it was Catholic schools all the
> way. AJ, the Eagle Scout, is attending a Catholic college too (his choice, but
> obviously we're pleased).
>
> The story of how and why we switched Ken (#1 son) from public to Catholic
> school is ... well, the short version is that his second-grade teacher was
> completely incompetent, and the school administration refused to do anything
> about it -- assistant principal told my wife, when she requested they transfer
> our son to a different classroom, that "if we did that, then every parent
> would be asking for a transfer." Yeah, well, that oughta tell you something
> about that teacher, ya think? So we transferred him right out of the whole
> school district.
>
> We were fortunate to be able to afford to do that, but seeing the results, the
> sacrifice was worth it. Both boys wound up with very generous college
> scholarships. Ken's in law school now.

<I left the entire thing in instead of snipping>

63% of the student body in HISD in 2010 were "At Risk" students! 63% of
over 200,000 students!!!

Where are the parents??

Sheeesh ... this tells you immediately what the culture is going to be
like in ten years, yet folks continue to bop thru life with the idea
that "Happy Days" is what the current educational system is like ... the
reality is that much of it is a cesspool of total and demonstrable
incompetence.

Just imagine what the children of these 63% are going to be like!

I chose to send my daughter to public schools because I'm paying for it
and I was bound and determined to make it work ... but damn if it wasn't
an eye opener, and a lot of hard work to boot.

I was raised Catholic but always had a great respect for the Jews of
this country because they heretofore always sent their kids to public
schools in the US and, as a result, made those schools better for all
concerned with their strong family ties and parental involvement ...
that is no longer true. Most of my Jewish friend's children, of the same
age as my youngest daughter, went to private schools.

Given the choice, there is no way I would go through that again.

Due to political correctness, and to a large measure progressive
thinking (if you can call it that), we have squandered the only legacy
that really counts for the future ... an education for our children.

And, for those who think an education at the much vaunted universities
in America is worth more than a warm bucket of spit these days, open
your eyes with this:

http://wouclips.wordpress.com/2011/08/10/10-reasons-to-skip-the-expensive-colleges/

</rant>

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 8/12/2011 11:28 PM, Bill wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>>> Fucking "balking" ... WTF???
>>
>> Ok, take a big breath, exhale and let him have it again!
>>
>
> Gee thanks! LOL : )

Sorry I was sucked in by the excitement of the moment. ;~)

On 8/12/2011 8:49 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 8/12/2011 5:21 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
>> In article<[email protected]>,
>> Swingman<[email protected]> wrote:
>>> On 8/12/2011 9:08 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
>>>> In article<[email protected]>,
>>> Swingman<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In short, the educational system in this country was originally
>>>>> instituted to provide an education ... it has now been subverted,
>>>>> mostly
>>>>> by progressive machinations (union, etc.), to be _primarily_ concerned
>>>>> with its own perpetuation in current form.
>>>>
>>>> "If an unfriendly foreign power had attempted to impose on America the
>>>> mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well
>>>> have viewed
>>>> it as an act of war." -- A Nation at Risk (April 1983)
>>>>
>>>> http://www2.ed.gov/pubs/NatAtRisk/risk.html
>>>>
>>>
>>> Great link!
>>>
>>>> And it has only gotten worse since then.
>>>
>>> Damned shame that after almost 30 years nothing has been accomplished,
>>> overall, to improve the situation.
>>>
>>> As the parent of an Eagle Scout, IIRC, I'm sure you are painfully aware
>>> of the situation and took the same kind of steps aforementioned.
>>
>> You do recall correctly. I even have a bumper sticker on my car: "I'm
>> proud of
>> my Eagle Scout".
>>
>> And yes, we did. His older brother went to public school for the first
>> two
>> years, and part of second grade -- after that, it was Catholic schools
>> all the
>> way. AJ, the Eagle Scout, is attending a Catholic college too (his
>> choice, but
>> obviously we're pleased).
>>
>> The story of how and why we switched Ken (#1 son) from public to Catholic
>> school is ... well, the short version is that his second-grade teacher
>> was
>> completely incompetent, and the school administration refused to do
>> anything
>> about it -- assistant principal told my wife, when she requested they
>> transfer
>> our son to a different classroom, that "if we did that, then every parent
>> would be asking for a transfer." Yeah, well, that oughta tell you
>> something
>> about that teacher, ya think? So we transferred him right out of the
>> whole
>> school district.
>>
>> We were fortunate to be able to afford to do that, but seeing the
>> results, the
>> sacrifice was worth it. Both boys wound up with very generous college
>> scholarships. Ken's in law school now.
>
> <I left the entire thing in instead of snipping>
>
> 63% of the student body in HISD in 2010 were "At Risk" students! 63% of
> over 200,000 students!!!
>
> Where are the parents??
>
> Sheeesh ... this tells you immediately what the culture is going to be
> like in ten years, yet folks continue to bop thru life with the idea
> that "Happy Days" is what the current educational system is like ... the
> reality is that much of it is a cesspool of total and demonstrable
> incompetence.
>
> Just imagine what the children of these 63% are going to be like!
>
> I chose to send my daughter to public schools because I'm paying for it
> and I was bound and determined to make it work ... but damn if it wasn't
> an eye opener, and a lot of hard work to boot.
>
> I was raised Catholic but always had a great respect for the Jews of
> this country because they heretofore always sent their kids to public
> schools in the US and, as a result, made those schools better for all
> concerned with their strong family ties and parental involvement ...
> that is no longer true. Most of my Jewish friend's children, of the same
> age as my youngest daughter, went to private schools.
>
> Given the choice, there is no way I would go through that again.
>
> Due to political correctness, and to a large measure progressive
> thinking (if you can call it that), we have squandered the only legacy
> that really counts for the future ... an education for our children.
>
> And, for those who think an education at the much vaunted universities
> in America is worth more than a warm bucket of spit these days, open
> your eyes with this:
>
> http://wouclips.wordpress.com/2011/08/10/10-reasons-to-skip-the-expensive-colleges/
>
>
> </rant>

When Bryan was choosing between colleges he was most interested in Rice
and UofH. His HS counselor said that he had the grades for Rice but he
would most likely be passed over for a "non-white", foreign student, or
female. We drove around and through the campus prior to that meeting
and I noticed a similar mix in the student body.

I early on told Bryan that the University did not matter as far as
career was concerned so much as what you actually learned. I did tell
him that an Ivy league school was going to help him get his first job
but after that his work ethic and reputation was going to trump any
school he attended.

When he was interning with KPMG he heard mention that they typically
choose more students from UofH over UT and A&M because of their
experience. Most all of the UofH students had at least part time jobs
where as the more privlidged students that simply went to school had no
work experience and had to be taught "everything".

Totally agree with that article you posted the link to, especially the
Honors College comments, The students get first pick at the professors
and have much smaller more personal classes.

On 8/13/2011 1:13 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 8/13/2011 9:40 AM, Leon wrote:
>
>> Totally agree with that article you posted the link to, especially the
>> Honors College comments, The students get first pick at the professors
>> and have much smaller more personal classes.
>
> It's hard to believe that 70% of the undergraduate classes at most
> universities are now taught by outsourced, "paid-by-the-course", adjunct
> professors!
>
> A sad state of affairs ... this corporate model of teaching was unheard
> of in my day.
>
> Might as well get some of that "discount knowledge from the local
> community college", if it's the same folks doing the teaching!
>
> Hell, at this rate it won't be long before Haji's teaching physics at
> Harvard ... from a call center in New Delhi.
>

And teeching the neu Inglish so that we mite understand hem,

On 8/13/2011 12:57 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 8/11/2011 11:04 PM, HeyBub wrote:
>> Han wrote:
>>>
>>> The counterargument is whether you'd want your kids to be educated by
>>> high school teachers who make 40K/year.
>>>
>>> As far as the hours worked, from what I see my kids do, it is a rather
>>> consuming job teaching math& physics in Paterson NJ and similar
>>> districts. Apart from the miserable shape those communities and kids
>>> are in, the hours of school and after school efforts plus the hours of
>>> grading and lesson planning would have exhausted me within a year.
>>> Glad it's not my job ...
>>
>> I taught high school chemistry and physics for two semesters and I can
>> say
>> with truth that dozens of teachers are underpaid. Tens of thousands
>> more are
>> grossly overpaid.
>>
>>
>
> Switch to Chrome


Geeez leon.....

Swingman <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> SconnieRoadie <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Keep your eyes on the recalls in Wisconsin Tuesday. Wisconsin has
>> always been a progressive state, even under Republicans.
>>
>> But the swing with the election of Scott Walker to the governorship
>> was toward a whole new direction, one that slashes and burns social
>> programs while shoveling money at business. My characterization is
>> not out of line with the reality.
>>
>> Whether or not this strategy would be ultimately "successful" -
>> whatever that means to the authors of it - I hope we never have to
>> find out.
>>
>> I hope the recalls succeed and reason is restored. Because we need
>> to drag this country back from corporatocracy. This is a key battle
>> and people who believe in the greater good need to recognize the
>> threat and make themselves heard.
>
> Viewing the results, apparently folks aren't as stupid as msnbc makes
> them out to be, eh?

There is a law in Wisconsin that makes legislators immune from recall
during their first year. Therefore, the decisive recalls will come
later. I am not sure that organized labor isn't featherbedding some of
their members, but generally speaking, undoing labor contracts in such a
fell swoop to such an extent is not fair. My daughter and son-in-law are
both high school teachers in NJ, and the changes in their remuneration
(much higher deductions for healthcare and pensions) makes them feel
lucky they have help nearby.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

busbus <[email protected]> wrote in news:a4c2d470-9f4e-471b-8da5-
[email protected]:

> On Aug 10, 9:37 pm, Han <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> I am not sure that organized labor isn't featherbedding some of
>> their members, but generally speaking, undoing labor contracts in such
>> a fell swoop to such an extent is not fair.  My daughter and son-in-
>> law are
>> both high school teachers in NJ, and the changes in their remuneration
>> (much higher deductions for healthcare and pensions) makes them feel
>> lucky they have help nearby.
>
> But making us poor slobs in the community where the teachers work pay
> more and more and more in taxes whenever our health care insurance
> costs go up and up and up and our gross pay stays the same and being
> told pensions are a thing of the past is FAIR somehow??

"You" have given these people contracts, that "you" now are going to just
throw out? Once you go that way, maybe the next step is that your
pension/SS/whatever will be taken away. "You" is in quotes because the
sheeple of NJ have allowed their representatives to do this.

I don't know where you live, but in NJ the legislature has consistently
allowed the state NOT to pay into the teachers' (police/whatever) pension
plans. Now, gov christie says, OK, you teachers need to pay more, but
what of the unfunded state obligations? It almost seems that the state
stealing from the pension plans is OK, and the pensioners better fend for
themselves.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Swingman <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> On 8/11/2011 7:18 AM, Han wrote:
>
>> I don't know where you live, but in NJ the legislature has
>> consistently allowed the state NOT to pay into the teachers'
>> (police/whatever) pension plans. Now, gov christie says, OK, you
>> teachers need to pay more, but what of the unfunded state
>> obligations? It almost seems that the state stealing from the
>> pension plans is OK, and the pensioners better fend for themselves.
>
> Police don't seem to be hurting:
>
> "The median salary for the state’s 20,525 municipal officers was
> $90,672 last year, meaning half earned more and half earned less.
>
> A total of 6,198 municipal officers made at least $100,000 last year.
> Ninety-nine of 466 towns that pay police have six-figure median
> salaries. Most are in North Jersey, primarily Bergen County"
>
> That's twice the US median household income (read two wage earners)
> paid by the taxpayer.
>
> "Any police officer that says they’re not making enough money needs to
> re-examine themselves," said Saddle Brook Township Police Chief Robert
> Kugler. In that Bergen County town, 30 of 31 officers made six figures
> last year, and the median salary was $121,177.
>
> Police say their salaries reflect New Jersey’s high cost of living,
> years of experience on the job and union contracts allowing officers
> to quickly rise to the top of the pay scale. They also say they have
> recently made sacrifices in union negotiations and are being forced to
> pay more toward their health care."
>
> Making that kind of money, seems like they could afford to pay more
> toward their health care and their pension plans?
>
> Poor babies ... As a taxpayer who makes no where that, I simply can
> barely afford any kind of healthcare for my family.

Yes, the police here are complaining they earn less than in neighboring
towns. Because of gov christie's budget cuts and their intransigence in
negotiations, some had to be let go. I think 1 "new" position became
available the coming fiscal year. They're good, though, and generally
polite etc. They came extremely fast when I had fallen and broken my
upper arm on July 4 a few years back.


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> On 8/11/2011 7:18 AM, Han wrote:
>> busbus<[email protected]> wrote in news:a4c2d470-9f4e-471b-8da5-
>> [email protected]:
>>
>>> On Aug 10, 9:37 pm, Han<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I am not sure that organized labor isn't featherbedding some of
>>>> their members, but generally speaking, undoing labor contracts in
>>>> such a fell swoop to such an extent is not fair. My daughter and
>>>> son-in- law are
>>>> both high school teachers in NJ, and the changes in their
>>>> remuneration (much higher deductions for healthcare and pensions)
>>>> makes them feel lucky they have help nearby.
>>>
>>> But making us poor slobs in the community where the teachers work
>>> pay more and more and more in taxes whenever our health care
>>> insurance costs go up and up and up and our gross pay stays the same
>>> and being told pensions are a thing of the past is FAIR somehow??
>>
>> "You" have given these people contracts, that "you" now are going to
>> just throw out? Once you go that way, maybe the next step is that
>> your pension/SS/whatever will be taken away. "You" is in quotes
>> because the sheeple of NJ have allowed their representatives to do
>> this.
>>
>> I don't know where you live, but in NJ the legislature has
>> consistently allowed the state NOT to pay into the teachers'
>> (police/whatever) pension plans. Now, gov christie says, OK, you
>> teachers need to pay more, but what of the unfunded state
>> obligations? It almost seems that the state stealing from the
>> pension plans is OK, and the pensioners better fend for themselves.
>
> If the contract seems too good to be true.... A contract with the
> state is in essence a contract with a pollination. Now days the young
> starting out better be responsible and depend on their own resources
> to fund their pensions.

?pollination?? Some would think that a fringe benefit like a pension
from a (quasi)governmental organization should be trustworthy. That is a
rude awakening around here.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

busbus <[email protected]> wrote in
news:b8e0e582-2466-41f6-87ec-db8a0086525c@k15g2000yqd.googlegroups.com:

> On Aug 11, 8:18 am, Han <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "You" have given these people contracts, that "you" now are going to
>> just throw out?  Once you go that way, maybe the next step is that
>> your pension/SS/whatever will be taken away.  "You" is in quotes
>> because the sheeple of NJ have allowed their representatives to do
>> this.
>>
>> I don't know where you live, but in NJ the legislature has
>> consistently allowed the state NOT to pay into the teachers'
>> (police/whatever) pension plans.  Now, gov christie says, OK, you
>> teachers need to pay more, but what of the unfunded state
>> obligations?  It almost seems that the state stealing from the
>> pension plans is OK, and the pensioners better fend for themselves.
>>
>
> Well, things like pensions "changed" at companies while I was working
> there and there was nothing I could do about it.
>
> Health care insurance costs rose for me without notice and there was
> nothing I could do about it.
>
> My job was outsourced to a low-cost provider and there was nothing I
> could do about.
>
> Sorry, I just don't like hearing the whining.

It didn't change that much at my academic employer in New York City. But
then, it always was a "defined contribution" benefit, rather than a
"defined benefit" plan. It was up to me how and where to invest (within
the limits of 403b5.

Health care costs kept and keep on rising for my coworkers and me
(retired) too, including contributions from us, and copays.

I think that whining is in the eye of the beholder. If you had a
contract, did you like it being canceled? My contract was year to year.
Luckily, I worked for 34 years with (hardly) a hiatus, although 1 year
early on I had to take a 30% pay cut. It's possible that I could have
insisted on being paid, but then my performance review could have been
bad at the end <wry grin>.


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

busbus <[email protected]> wrote in
news:877f4539-dcad-4523-9b8e-ea7d4dedb7c2@q15g2000yqk.googlegroups.com:

> On Aug 11, 8:18 am, Han <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "You" have given these people contracts, that "you" now are going to
>> just throw out?  Once you go that way, maybe the next step is that
>> your pension/SS/whatever will be taken away.  "You" is in quotes
>> because the sheeple of NJ have allowed their representatives to do
>> this.
>>
>
> I just read this closer. To respond, I can unequivocably say that
> pensions have been changed AND taken away from workers in the private
> sector.
>
> Whenever a person goes bankrupt, creditors will settle for pennies on
> a dollar to at least get something. All levels of government are just
> about bankrupt now and the "private sheeple" who are paying the bills
> are requesting their representatives to work with the "public sheeple"
> to renegotiate the contract. This sort of thing is not unheard of in
> the private sector.
>
> I say "sheeple" because they exist in both the private and public
> sectors.
>
> As far as honoring contracts are concerned, did you also agree that
> the rich CEOs and other high-ranking executives should have been paid
> the millions and millions of dollars that they were due in contracts
> after the meltdown in 2008? I will bet you that you were one of those
> people who complained that companies did that even though they were
> honoring the contracts.

I did complain that the contracts were written in such a way that they
did get those enormous bonuses. A contract is a contract, unless it is
illegal, or coerced. Your call now ...

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

"Max" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> "busbus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:877f4539-dcad-4523-9b8e-ea7d4dedb7c2@q15g2000yqk.googlegroups.com.
> .. On Aug 11, 8:18 am, Han <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "You" have given these people contracts, that "you" now are going to
>> just throw out? Once you go that way, maybe the next step is that
>> your pension/SS/whatever will be taken away. "You" is in quotes
>> because the sheeple of NJ have allowed their representatives to do
>> this.
>>
>
> I just read this closer. To respond, I can unequivocably say that
> pensions have been changed AND taken away from workers in the private
> sector.
>
> Whenever a person goes bankrupt, creditors will settle for pennies on
> a dollar to at least get something. All levels of government are just
> about bankrupt now and the "private sheeple" who are paying the bills
> are requesting their representatives to work with the "public sheeple"
> to renegotiate the contract. This sort of thing is not unheard of in
> the private sector.
>
> I say "sheeple" because they exist in both the private and public
> sectors.
>
> As far as honoring contracts are concerned, did you also agree that
> the rich CEOs and other high-ranking executives should have been paid
> the millions and millions of dollars that they were due in contracts
> after the meltdown in 2008? I will bet you that you were one of those
> people who complained that companies did that even though they were
> honoring the contracts.
>
>
> I don't dispute any of what you've said. However, as a retired
> firefighter, I know of many who chose the profession solely because of
> the "security"; security that is now being surrendered because of
> mismanagement by the ......managers. The individuals in question
> usually had skills that would have paid them more *in the short run*
> but chose a public service job because of the proffered security.
> I'm in favor of informing future applicants that the so-called
> security no longer exists and they are well advised to take care of
> their own but a deal is a deal and the "sheeple public" elected the
> "managers" so the fault cannot be fairly placed entirely upon the
> public service workers. IMHO
>
> Max

Exactly, Max. As I said elsewhere, in maybe different words, academic
institutions and others have become leery of "defined benefit" pensions,
and have started to give "defined contribution" benefits. I had the
latter, and can only blame myself for hanging on to underperforming
investments, and crow about the well-performing ones.


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

"HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Han wrote:
>>
>> There is a law in Wisconsin that makes legislators immune from recall
>> during their first year. Therefore, the decisive recalls will come
>> later. I am not sure that organized labor isn't featherbedding some
>> of their members, but generally speaking, undoing labor contracts in
>> such a fell swoop to such an extent is not fair. My daughter and
>> son-in-law are both high school teachers in NJ, and the changes in
>> their remuneration (much higher deductions for healthcare and
>> pensions) makes them feel lucky they have help nearby.
>
> Nobody's labor contract got "undone." Previous labor contracts are
> still in force. The only change was that "new" contracts could not be
> based on collective bargaining.
>
> The "average" pay for teachers in New Jersey is in excess of $63,000.
> Even in the Garden State, your daughter's family should be able to
> subsist on a piddly $130,000 per year.
>
> Heck, they could even supplement this meager income by making Slurpees
> in the summer months.

I hope my kids are getting closer to that average salary. They started 4
years ago with around 40K. Even combined, that isn't very much
hereabouts.


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

busbus <[email protected]> wrote in
news:f7ab0fda-8536-44b0-acc4-9cd7ad76969d@a10g2000yqn.googlegroups.com:

> On Aug 11, 8:41 am, "HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Han wrote:
>>
>> > There is a law in Wisconsin that makes legislators immune from
>> > recall during their first year.  Therefore, the decisive recalls
>> > will come later.  I am not sure that organized labor isn't
>> > featherbedding some of their members, but generally speaking,
>> > undoing labor contracts in such a fell swoop to such an extent is
>> > not fair.  My daughter and son-in-law are both high school teachers
>> > in NJ, and the changes in their remuneration (much higher
>> > deductions for healthcare and pensions) makes them feel lucky they
>> > have help nearby.
>>
>> Nobody's labor contract got "undone." Previous labor contracts are
>> still
> in
>> force. The only change was that "new" contracts could not be based on
>> collective bargaining.
>>
>> The "average" pay for teachers in New Jersey is in excess of $63,000.
>> Eve
> n
>> in the Garden State, your daughter's family should be able to subsist
>> on
> a
>> piddly $130,000 per year.
>>
>> Heck, they could even supplement this meager income by making
>> Slurpees in the summer months.
>
>
> I agree. Also, I work with a woman whose husband is a teacher in a
> fairly well-paid district here in PA. They are in their mid-30s
> (around 34-35). He has taught there for about ten years now.
> Whenever we talked about teacher's salaries, she exclaimed, "Well,
> Rick needs to work 17 years before he makes $75,000. 17 YEARS!! How
> long did it take you to make $75,000?!?!" I told her the truth: it
> took me over 30 years to get there.
>
> Sorry, I understand that teachers are a bit behind in salary in their
> early years but, seriously, they don't put in near the amount of hours
> that other professions do. Also, they knew the pay scale whenever
> they went in. If they didn't, shame on them.
>
> Beside, pension and health care insurance costs are breaking the backs
> of the public. We who are contributing to the GNP in this country are
> paying ever escalating costs for our own retirement and health care
> AND we are expected to pay for the people who work in public unions.
>
> Think about it.

The counterargument is whether you'd want your kids to be educated by
high school teachers who make 40K/year.

As far as the hours worked, from what I see my kids do, it is a rather
consuming job teaching math & physics in Paterson NJ and similar
districts. Apart from the miserable shape those communities and kids are
in, the hours of school and after school efforts plus the hours of
grading and lesson planning would have exhausted me within a year. Glad
it's not my job ...

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Swingman <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Since NJ was interjected into into conversation, can someone verify
> that apparently the police union negotiated that police in NJ pay 1.5%
> of their salary for health insurance?

Googling "nj police health insurance contribution" comes up with a lot,
but I can't easily corroborate that figure. The new rules for public
employees may be something like this
<http://www.cliffviewpilot.com/beyond/2488-how-nj-pension-and-health-
reform-affects-you>:
All employees must pay a portion of their premium, based on salary and
using a sliding scale that starts at 3% of the premium for those making
less than $25,000 a year and reaches 35% for those making $110,000 or
more (the percentage changes for every $5,000 over $25,000).

> For the median income ($90k+) mentioned earlier, that is less than
> $150/mo.
>
> My wife and daughters is $800+/mo, and that is a bare bones policy
> with a huge deductible.

That is unconscionably high, and I hope some of that is deductible on
your taxes. Can't you get a better plan, maybe via AARP or AAA?

OTOH, my coworker, who was screwed out of a salary (too long a story) for
something like a year, while her husband was also not being paid, was
paying over $1000/month for COBRA coverage in New York.

At Weill Cornell health insurance is a great benefit. For myself and my
spouse, when I worked full time, my contribution for medical, dental &
vision was ~$212/month.

> Pardon me while I sob a few tears ... for all of us. :(
>
> IIRC, this is EXACTLY what the issue in WI was about ... union choke
> hold on public purse strings, bought and paid for by bought and paid
> for politicians.

The issue is really what the cost should be, and (red flag waving) I
believe that the leveling of the costs for everyone under Obamacare is
going to be a plus. Remeber, my insurance is now paying (in New York) a
surcharge over the hospital costs of 8.5% to cover uninsured people.


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

busbus <[email protected]> wrote in news:a8552c7c-5604-4c2e-8a14-
[email protected]:

> Reasonableness. I'm sorry that the pendulum has swung way in the
> opposite direction butt he fact of the matter is that is has.
> Adjust.

I have hardly ever complained about the salary I was getting.
Considering what it takes around here to live, a real cut in disposable
income for my kids here is a hardship. They would live, even if I didn't
help, but they would definitely spend less. And the real issue is why
healthcare costs are so crazy in the US, compared to elsewhere.
Example:

I broke my leg while on vacation in Holland (Wed, 7/7/10, ~10:30 AM). An
ambulance crew picked me up and brought me to the local ER, where they
determined that both tibia and fibula were badly cracked just above my
ankle to halfway up my lower leg. A trauma orthopedic surgeon said he
needed to operate right away and put "plates" and screws in my leg.
Operation was done and by 2:30 I was out of recovery in a semiprivate
hospital room. On Friday afternoon I was released, and was told it was
OK to travel by train to Paris on Saturday. Followup care here in Jersey
had the orthopedist amazed at the techniques used by the Dutch surgeon.
For the hospital stay including ambulance, OR, anesthesia and
medications, the total bill was less than 10K. It's difficult to compute
because of the changing exchange rates around that time. Luckily my
insurance paid except for a $250 deductible. Of course, no one but me
paid for my exchanging my tourist class seat for a first class one, so I
could keep my leg elevated during the flight to Newark. I'd love to know
what a similar operation and hospital stay would have cost hereabouts.
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

busbus <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> On Aug 11, 12:21 pm, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Since NJ was interjected into into conversation, can someone verify
>> that apparently the police union negotiated that police in NJ pay
>> 1.5% of their salary for health insurance?
>>
>> For the median income ($90k+) mentioned earlier, that is less than
>> $150/m
> o.
>>
>> My wife and daughters is $800+/mo, and that is a bare bones policy
>> with a huge deductible.
>>
>> Pardon me while I sob a few tears ... for all of us.  :(
>>
>> IIRC, this is EXACTLY what the issue in WI was about ... union choke
>> hold on public purse strings, bought and paid for by bought and paid
>> for politicians.
>>
>
> Swingman, I can tell you this: the teachers in the school district I
> live in went out on strike last year for six weeks. The labor dispute
> was never settled. The teachers are looking to strike again this
> year. One thing the school board asked for was an increase in the
> healthcare insurance from 0.5% to 0.9% and the teachers were really up
> in arms about that. They were also asked to teach six out of nine
> periods instead of only five out of nine. I know some things like
> Calculus and Physics and English composition papers are not the
> easiest things to grade but it seems to me that t he teachers are
> being given ample time to get a lot of that work done during the
> school day. Sure, they need to bring work home. Many, many of us
> white collar workers come in early; stay late; and work at home on
> evenings, weekends, holidays, and vacations. That is EXPECTED of us.
> Why not the teachers, too?

Teaching 6 periods rather than 5 is a 20% increase in teaching load,
right? I'd be upset about that too, if my take home pay was cut on top
of that. And as an "exempt" employee at a university, I know a little
about staying late, and working weekends etc.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

busbus <[email protected]> wrote in
news:1ed315f0-77e1-495d-b489-16dc3bdbcfff@f20g2000yqm.googlegroups.com:

> On Aug 11, 12:54 pm, Han <[email protected]> wrote:
>> The counterargument is whether you'd want your kids to be educated by
>> high school teachers who make 40K/year.  
>>
>> As far as the hours worked, from what I see my kids do, it is a
>> rather consuming job teaching math & physics in Paterson NJ and
>> similar districts.  Apart from the miserable shape those communities
>> and kids a
> re
>> in, the hours of school and after school efforts plus the hours of
>> grading and lesson planning would have exhausted me within a year.
>>  Gla
> d
>> it's not my job ...
>>
>
> I am not saying that teachers or firemen or policemen or whomever do
> not work hard. You want to know the truth? My son will be starting
> his sophomore year at Penn State to become a high-school math
> teacher. I know it is no bed of roses. But, at the same time, he is
> not looking for a free ride.
>
> That said, you mention that your kids started out at $40/K each four
> years ago. Here is the thing: there are a number of people living in
> that community who are paying taxes and are paying A LOT more for
> health insurance and are paying into their own retirement accounts.
>
> Like somebody mentioned before: nobody is taking anything away; they
> are changing it for the future. It needs to be done. Sorry.
>
> Somebody else mentioned the "security" part of it. That is gone ,
> too. Yes, it is a sad thing but there is no security in the private
> sector and, in a number of cases, the person doing the same job in the
> public sector gets paid less than the one in the public sector NOW (it
> was not like that before). It is upside down.
>
> This slanted sort of thinking is exactly what brought Greece down and
> is bringing a number of other European countries to their collective
> knees. Take off the blinders and see. Both China and Iran are
> licking their chops waiting to become the kingpin in a post-America
> world. And that doesn't even count all the religious crap that is
> going on.
>
> As long as we fight amongst ourselves over this piddly crap, the
> stronger the other side becomes.

Some of that I can agree with. OTOH, employee-employer relations are
much more combative than they need to be, hence the unneccesary strikes
(teachers can't strike in NJ, I believe). The only thing they could do
was not volunteer for after school work with the kids after years
without contract.

I'm all for reorganizing some of the work rules. Especially the rule
that says your pension is based on the average salary you made during
your last (1,2,3?) years, includng overtime!! That's ridiculous.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

busbus <[email protected]> wrote in
news:66ac7761-6cf5-4267-a9ec-6c1b92f26fb8@dc3g2000vbb.googlegroups.com:

> On Aug 11, 2:13 pm, Han <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Some of that I can agree with.  OTOH, employee-employer relations are
>> much more combative than they need to be, hence the unneccesary
>> strikes (teachers can't strike in NJ, I believe).  The only thing
>> they could do was not volunteer for after school work with the kids
>> after years without contract.
>>
>> I'm all for reorganizing some of the work rules.  Especially the rule
>> that says your pension is based on the average salary you made during
>> your last (1,2,3?) years, includng overtime!!  That's ridiculous.
>>
>
> Han,
>
> I am glad we are having a dialogue on this. I agree with your last
> statement.

Thanks!! I agree, we need to talk. We don't want more occurrences like
the GM and Chrysler bankruptcies that give away pension obligations to
the "state" or just say screw you to the retired workers. Some givebacks
need to happen, but we were focusing here on teachers. And then the BIG
question is, would you want your kids (and your neighbors' kids too) to
have a good education, or should the kids be warehoused until 16 or 18
and then loosed upon the drugdens that would undoubtedly spring up in
your town.


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> On 8/11/2011 1:07 PM, Han wrote:
>> busbus<[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> On Aug 11, 12:21 pm, Swingman<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Since NJ was interjected into into conversation, can someone verify
>>>> that apparently the police union negotiated that police in NJ pay
>>>> 1.5% of their salary for health insurance?
>>>>
>>>> For the median income ($90k+) mentioned earlier, that is less than
>>>> $150/m
>>> o.
>>>>
>>>> My wife and daughters is $800+/mo, and that is a bare bones policy
>>>> with a huge deductible.
>>>>
>>>> Pardon me while I sob a few tears ... for all of us. :(
>>>>
>>>> IIRC, this is EXACTLY what the issue in WI was about ... union
>>>> choke hold on public purse strings, bought and paid for by bought
>>>> and paid for politicians.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Swingman, I can tell you this: the teachers in the school district I
>>> live in went out on strike last year for six weeks. The labor
>>> dispute was never settled. The teachers are looking to strike again
>>> this year. One thing the school board asked for was an increase in
>>> the healthcare insurance from 0.5% to 0.9% and the teachers were
>>> really up in arms about that. They were also asked to teach six out
>>> of nine periods instead of only five out of nine. I know some
>>> things like Calculus and Physics and English composition papers are
>>> not the easiest things to grade but it seems to me that t he
>>> teachers are being given ample time to get a lot of that work done
>>> during the school day. Sure, they need to bring work home. Many,
>>> many of us white collar workers come in early; stay late; and work
>>> at home on evenings, weekends, holidays, and vacations. That is
>>> EXPECTED of us. Why not the teachers, too?
>>
>> Teaching 6 periods rather than 5 is a 20% increase in teaching load,
>> right? I'd be upset about that too, if my take home pay was cut on
>> top of that. And as an "exempt" employee at a university, I know a
>> little about staying late, and working weekends etc.
>>
>
>
> But teaching 5 out of 9 periods is only 55% of the time you are
> there.
> I don't see that as an increase, I see that as being more productive
> during the time that you are at work.
>
> Sure you have to do more work as opposed to what you were told you
> would have do. Join the crowd. Economic times are tough. If every
> one does not pitch in an do more the cream is going to rise to the top
> and they are going to be the ones that keep their jobs. Those that
> complain and or do the least will be replaced, simple economics.

The teachers do not always have to be there first or last period. And
teaching a class is really more work than supervising cafeteria or some
such. Basically, if the school can make teachers 20% more productive,
they need to pay 20% fewer teachers.

Yes, times are tough, for everyone. That's when you want teaching to be
done well, and you should be willing to pay for that.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> On 8/11/2011 12:44 PM, Han wrote:
>> Swingman<[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> Since NJ was interjected into into conversation, can someone verify
>>> that apparently the police union negotiated that police in NJ pay
>>> 1.5% of their salary for health insurance?
>>
>> Googling "nj police health insurance contribution" comes up with a
>> lot, but I can't easily corroborate that figure. The new rules for
>> public employees may be something like this
>> <http://www.cliffviewpilot.com/beyond/2488-how-nj-pension-and-health-
>> reform-affects-you>:
>> All employees must pay a portion of their premium, based on salary
>> and using a sliding scale that starts at 3% of the premium for those
>> making less than $25,000 a year and reaches 35% for those making
>> $110,000 or more (the percentage changes for every $5,000 over
>> $25,000).
>>
>>> For the median income ($90k+) mentioned earlier, that is less than
>>> $150/mo.
>>>
>>> My wife and daughters is $800+/mo, and that is a bare bones policy
>>> with a huge deductible.
>>
>> That is unconscionably high, and I hope some of that is deductible on
>> your taxes. Can't you get a better plan, maybe via AARP or AAA?
>
> Actually that is normal, do you have any idea how much the employer
> pays for an employees insurance?

I was involved in writing grants, and know about the budgets. On top pof
the salaries/wages there was always 30% extra for benefits. Plus on top
of the socalled "direct costs" the universities had negotiated with the
NIH (National Institutes of Health) an additional percentage for overhead
(building costs, maintenance costs, water, what have you). That
percentage? In the order of 70%. In other words, you (via the NIH) paid
me 100K in salary, 30K in benefits, 30K in equipment and chemicals and
other materials for my science, plus 70% of 160K=112K for the university.
My salary was in that order, which was quite normal for someone with my
qualifications.

>> OTOH, my coworker, who was screwed out of a salary (too long a story)
>> for something like a year, while her husband was also not being paid,
>> was paying over $1000/month for COBRA coverage in New York.
>>
>> At Weill Cornell health insurance is a great benefit. For myself and
>> my spouse, when I worked full time, my contribution for medical,
>> dental& vision was ~$212/month.
>
> I can guarantee you that you were only paying a small percentage of
> the total. When I was working for others I never had any deductions
> for my insurance however being a check signer I knew full well what
> health insurance was costing the company.

Yes, I know. Officially, that was because the university was competing
with other employers to get the most qualified people. A good benefit
package was a big plus.

>>> Pardon me while I sob a few tears ... for all of us. :(
>>>
>>> IIRC, this is EXACTLY what the issue in WI was about ... union choke
>>> hold on public purse strings, bought and paid for by bought and paid
>>> for politicians.
>>
>> The issue is really what the cost should be, and (red flag waving) I
>> believe that the leveling of the costs for everyone under Obamacare
>> is going to be a plus. Remeber, my insurance is now paying (in New
>> York) a surcharge over the hospital costs of 8.5% to cover uninsured
>> people.
>
> Think about how much that is going to go up when you start footing the
> whole bill, Fewer raises, smaller raises, higher taxes....

I don't know. Everyone (in my reddish opinion) should pay similarly for
health care insurance. No ducking because you think you are invincible
and won't get sick, because if you do, you'll be unable to pay back what
you evaded before. And, better to have a colonoscopy now than colon
cancer later.


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> On 8/11/2011 11:54 AM, Han wrote:
>
>>
>> The counterargument is whether you'd want your kids to be educated by
>> high school teachers who make 40K/year.
>
> I was educated by teachers that made far less and were far superior to
> most today. Our educational system throws more money at the problem
> than ever and yet the results are far worse. A higher salary is not
> going to get a better teacher. I guarantee you that if all teachers
> were given a 50% raise today that in 5 years the same teachers would
> still be teaching and the kids would not be learning any more than
> they are right now. If you want the kids to learn more the teachers
> will have to be held to a higher standard, be re-certified
> periodically, and paid for their performance.

Agree. Teachers should be more motivated (especially the ones doing it
already for a long time) and kids should be more willing to learn. Ask
the Brits were the parents were ...

The work rules now stink. Get tenure, and you're practically set for
life. OTOH, capricious or malicious firing is very difficult now. It
goes both ways, but I agree, it should be easier to "grade" teachers and
remunerate accordingly. Of course, if you get dealt a bunch of really
unruly and stupid kids one year, life sucks.

>> As far as the hours worked, from what I see my kids do, it is a
>> rather consuming job teaching math& physics in Paterson NJ and
>> similar districts. Apart from the miserable shape those communities
>> and kids are in, the hours of school and after school efforts plus
>> the hours of grading and lesson planning would have exhausted me
>> within a year. Glad it's not my job ...
>>
>
>



--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid