"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Chuck Hoffman" wrote in message
> > Sam, if I recall the British system correctly, at age 15 you're nearly
> > finished with your schooling.
>
> 13, IIRC.
>
> But the results might be the same.
>
Currently the official school leaving age is 16 in the UK, though there is
discussion both about raising it and also lowering it if the student is
enrolled to craft training.
BernardR
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 11/06/04
>
>
"MikeG" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> says...
> > Hi,
> >
> > I would like to try and make a small mitred box. I am unsure though how
you
> > clamp / hold a joint whilst glued. Also, does glue hold these joints
alone?
> > If no, how do you attach them?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Sam
> >
> >
> >
> A box with mitered corners makes for a glue joint that is primarily end
> grain. Not a lot of strength there if all you do is glue it.
>
> What you will want to do is introduce some long grain to the equation,
> increase glue area, or a combination of both.
>
> There are various methods of strengthening the joint, long splines top
> to bottom or short splines inserted into kerfs cut into the edges,
> biscuits, locking miter joint router bit all work well.
>
The miter is merely the external appearance of how various pieces of wood
are joined. An example of what can go on inside is shown in this Ming
dynasty link: http://users.exis.net/~jnc/jpg/joint70_50.jpg
a double-mitred triple-tenon three-way corner joint, shown in a hidden-line
drawing.
Quoting from the article:
' The two horizontal members are held together in two axes by a mortise and
tenon joint between them; they are further immobilised along the third axis,
and locked in two axes to the upright, by a mortise and tenon joint between
each horizontal member and the upright. All this is hidden by the pair of
mitred panels, leaving only three diagonal lines to show on the surface
where the three members join. (In this example, all three tenons are blind;
in some cases one of the upright tenons, and the horizontal tenon, are
through tenons, to aid in disassembly.) '
With nary a router or table saw due for the next few hundred years....
Progress hmmmm.
BernardR
> Band clamps do a good job of pulling the joints of a box together.
>
> Hope it helps.
>
> --
> MikeG
> Heirloom Woods
> www.heirloom-woods.net
> [email protected]
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Bernard Randall" wrote in message
>
> > "Swingman" wrote in message
> > > "Chuck Hoffman" wrote in message
> > > > Sam, if I recall the British system correctly, at age 15 you're
nearly
> > > > finished with your schooling.
> > >
> > > 13, IIRC.
> > >
> > > But the results might be the same.
> > >
> >
> > Currently the official school leaving age is 16 in the UK, though there
is
> > discussion both about raising it and also lowering it if the student is
> > enrolled to craft training.
>
> According to Sam, he is only 13, though. :)
>
> When I worked in an aircraft factory in England during the 60's there were
> any number of "apprentices" that were as young as 13 or 14. Does that
still
> happen?
Now days apprenticeships are like hens teeth, they're really suffering from
a shortage of time served craftsmen. From what I'm reading there's a new
drive to try to revive the crafts and I understand that skilled manual
workers are earning on a par with the traditional white collar
professionals.
BernardR
>
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 11/06/04
>
>
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
> Hi,
>
> I would like to try and make a small mitred box. I am unsure though how you
> clamp / hold a joint whilst glued. Also, does glue hold these joints alone?
> If no, how do you attach them?
>
> Thanks
>
> Sam
>
>
>
A box with mitered corners makes for a glue joint that is primarily end
grain. Not a lot of strength there if all you do is glue it.
What you will want to do is introduce some long grain to the equation,
increase glue area, or a combination of both.
There are various methods of strengthening the joint, long splines top
to bottom or short splines inserted into kerfs cut into the edges,
biscuits, locking miter joint router bit all work well.
Band clamps do a good job of pulling the joints of a box together.
Hope it helps.
--
MikeG
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net
[email protected]
Lifted from the archives/no new electrons were murdered to
present the following.
UA100
From: Keith G. Bohn ([email protected])
Subject: Re: Joining Hex Box
Newsgroups: rec.woodworking
Date: 1997/07/22
We have always joined miters using strapping (filament type)
tape. Assuming that your miters are all perfect (lucky dog)
place all your pieces wide side up and mitered edge touching
mitered edge. A straight edge is handy for alignment. Now
bridge each meeting miter with the strapping tape, putting a
piece every 2" or 3". What you're left with will look
similar to pre-fabricated lawn edging.
Flip the whole assembly over and run a bead of glue in the
valleys created by the miters. Don't over glue or you will
have squeeze out on the interior of your box. Now comes the
tricky part. As you bring the open ends together you will
notice some severe stiffness as the miters fold. This is
normal. Join the free ends with the same strapping tape as
the other joints.
The real beauty of this method is you have some time to make
final alignments by nudging here and there. You may also be
tempted to band clamp it. This is not required if you have
used enough tape.
Try this out dry with a simple 45 degree miter. It also
helps to "burnish" the meeting edges with the round shaft of
a screwdriver after the pieces are taped and the glue is
still wet. This will close any slight openings in your
miter.
Keith Bohn
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 15:46:34 -0000, "Sam Berlyn"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I would like to try and make a small mitred box.
That's because you've not made one before. I have made them, which is
why I hate making them. Mitres are a pain. They rely on a finicky
measurement you have to get perfectly right before you assemble it,
and they're a _real_ pain to clamp up while they're gluing.
Don't do mitres - they're horrible!
Assuming you're going to do them anyway, then a lot depends on which
way round they're going. How big is your box ? A "long tube", or a
"short tray" ? The difference is that the first is long mitres on
short timber, usually "long grain" surfaces. The second is short
mitres on long bits of wood and probably "end grain" surfaces.
I'd suggest you begin by making a picture frame. This is a classic
case where mitres are appropriate and commonplace. Obviously these are
the "end grain" sort. Buy your picture frame moulding (Hobby World)
and cut a rectangle of glass, or even have it cut to size at the
glazier (or even buy a glazed frame from Ikea / Poundsaver and throw
away the frame - often the cheapest way to get one-offs of glass).
Picture frames are nice and easy because you have the glass or backing
board to clamp the frame onto. If you don't, cut a backing board from
hardboard - it's easier to do this than it is to clamp the mitre up
without it.
Saw your frame as accurately as you can. This means your favourite
mitre saw and an accurate mitre box (wood is better than plastic).
Don't buy a "mitre saw". Unless you get a good one (e.g. Nobex) then
the saw blades are rubbish and they cut badly. Do your best to keep
the lengths matching too - it's better to make pairs that match
exactly, rather than pairs that are near the length you intended.
Now choose your glue. You want something with good initial "tack", not
something that takes ages. Titebond is better than plain PVA or Resin
W.
Finally you need a clamping tool. One of the best is easily home made.
Make four "corners"; a 3/4 circle of MDF or ply, with a square
internal corner. File a groove into the outer edge. Now take a loop
of string the right size and a stick like a pencil. Place them round
the frame, loop the string round the grooves, then use the stick as a
"Spanish windlass" to twist the string tight. Use a square to judge
the squareness of each corner - this is where the flat workbench top
covered with plastic sheet (big carrier bag taped down) and the
backing board as an internal scaffolding come in handy.
With a little experience of mitres and the vagaries (mainly their
tendency to fall to pieces when you try to glue and clamp them),
you'll begin to understand why I dislike them.
When your frame is finished and the glue dried, take a look at it.
Because you assembled it wet, all four corners should be glued, but
any inaccuracy will be distributed around them. There will be a little
bit of gaping somewhere. The better you saw it, the less this will
be. If you make the frame the other way; using a magic clamp to
assemble each joint one-by-one, then you'll have three perfect joints
and one that doesn't even meet ! On the whole the "all together"
clmaping works better.
For a "tube" box, your clamping is easier (less tendency to squash
inwards) but it's harder to saw it accurately. It still needs a plug
in the base to give the clamps something to press down onto.
To saw long mitre joints, it's a good time to use a table saw with
either a tilting blade or a sled (a sliding wedge that carries the
timber at an angle). This is still awkward though, especially with
small pieces. If you cut them by hand, then look at a mitre box
called a "board mitre" (pics on the web). It's also a good idea to
plane the mitres after sawing them, using a "shooting board" or
"donkey's ear" to hold the plane at the right angle. Robert Wearing's
book "Woodworking Aids and Devices" also describes a router gadget to
hold timber for machining to the right angle.
For making mitred boxes, especially those awkward compound mitred
boxes, then a good tool for clamping them is parcel-wrapping cling
film (saran wrap), as sold by stationers rather than kitchen shops, on
a roller handle.
If you have the machinery to cut it (which means a table saw), then I
prefer to cut a splined mitre. This begins as a plain mitre, but then
has a groove cut into the joint edges and a key of thin wood inserted.
Because this holds it in place, it's much easier to clamp up.
On the whole though, I'd suggest a rebated half-lap rather than a long
mitre.
I was reading James Ayres' "British Domestic Interiors" this weekend,
and he has some very scathing comments to make on mitres, and their
inappropriateness for good joinery.
--
Smert' spamionam
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 15:46:34 -0000, "Sam Berlyn"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I would like to try and make a small mitred box. I am unsure though how you
>clamp / hold a joint whilst glued. Also, does glue hold these joints alone?
>If no, how do you attach them?
>
>Thanks
>
>Sam
>
Sam.. if you haven't visited already, spend some time at Ken Vaugns'
web site.. it's like an education on woodworking and a trip through a
museum... and I think you'll enjoy it and go back from time to time as
I do..
http://home.earthlink.net/~kvaughn65j/index.html
I use corner clamps for miters.. here are a few examples of
inexpensive ones like I use:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=1852
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=38661
there are also several "plan" sites on the web where you can learn to
build your own..
I use biscuits on corners and miters, but the traditional way would be
to use dowels or splines..
"Bernard Randall" wrote in message
> "Swingman" wrote in message
> > "Chuck Hoffman" wrote in message
> > > Sam, if I recall the British system correctly, at age 15 you're nearly
> > > finished with your schooling.
> >
> > 13, IIRC.
> >
> > But the results might be the same.
> >
>
> Currently the official school leaving age is 16 in the UK, though there is
> discussion both about raising it and also lowering it if the student is
> enrolled to craft training.
According to Sam, he is only 13, though. :)
When I worked in an aircraft factory in England during the 60's there were
any number of "apprentices" that were as young as 13 or 14. Does that still
happen?
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04
Sam, if I recall the British system correctly, at age 15 you're nearly
finished with your schooling. With your interest and enthusiasm, you need
to apprentice yourself to a cabinet shop. Once you get past the "go-for"
and "floor-sweep" stage, you'll start learning how to do all the things
you're asking about.
"Sam Berlyn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi,
>
> I would like to try and make a small mitred box. I am unsure though how
you
> clamp / hold a joint whilst glued. Also, does glue hold these joints
alone?
> If no, how do you attach them?
>
> Thanks
>
> Sam
>
>