Cabinet Door Build - Recommendations From Painter

In article <[email protected]>,
DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote:

> I am pretty impressed so far. He shared a wealth of information and in a
> friendly yet professional manner.

Smart man, great advice. Make sure you give him the work, and then
recommend his ass all over town.

Smart people who offer great customer service are not as common as they
used to be. Cherish the ones you find.

djb

--
³Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness
sobered, but stupid lasts forever.² -- Aristophanes

On Sunday, February 8, 2015 at 8:09:13 PM UTC-5, Greg Guarino wrote:
> On 2/8/2015 1:36 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > On Sunday, February 8, 2015 at 11:51:04 AM UTC-5, Greg Guarino wrote:
> >
> > ...funny stories snipped...
> >
> >> He used to conduct most of his painting activities in the shared
> >> community driveway behind our (attached) houses, which was paved with
> >> asphalt.
> >
> > Where abouts did you live? I lived in a block of row houses in Flushing=
, but we all had our own driveways in front, with garages under the house. =
The tops of the driveways next to the sidewalks were flat, then the single =
car length driveway sloped steeply down to the garage. Always a hair raisin=
g experience! Imagine parking in a driveway that was barely one car length =
long and dropped a full story in that length! Lot's of brake and gear when =
trying to get up and out onto the street.
> >
> > As years went on and cars got lower, many of my neighbors had their dri=
veways ripped out and redone so the slope started right at the sidewalk, el=
iminating the sharp drop off. We never did ours because we never parked in =
the garage after Dad and Grandpa built a room for the 4 kids to study in fr=
om the interior 2/3 of the garage and left the outside 1/3 for storage.
> >
> > The next block over did have a common driveway (alley) and garages unde=
r the houses and accessed from the rear. 2 sloped entrances to the alley of=
f the side streets to a flat, block long "driveway" behind the houses. Lots=
of fun for skateboards made from a piece of scrap wood and a roller skate =
split in two and attached with some bent over nails.
> >
> >
> I grew up in Glendale, Queens. There are still houses in the=20
> neighborhood that are arranged in both ways you describe. Our block had=
=20
> the community driveway. It was great for us kids. The garages were way=20
> too small for 1960s cars (the houses were built in the '30s) and fewer=20
> families had more than one car to begin with, so almost all the cars=20
> stayed parked on the street out front.
>=20
> The back alley was our playground. Cars coming through were rare, and=20
> they drove very slowly. We played basketball, handball, tag and catch,=
=20
> drew "skelly" boards with chalk on the pavement, ran races, and visited=
=20
> each others houses, all within earshot of our parents. It was a little=20
> narrow for touch football.

Are you the kid in the knee socks?

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ltp5j3v0oq1qewdf8o1_400.jpg

Mom always got made when we stole her candles to fill the bottle tops.

>=20
> I lived for about 17 years in three locations in Flushing.
>=20

For me, it was 28 years in three locations except for 1 year when Dad's job=
took us to Milwaukee. Most of the time was spent living across from Queens=
College. You couldn't find a parking spot within 2 blocks of your house du=
ring school days, but could line up twenty 18 wheelers on the weekends. We =
had to get special dispensation from the police department to block our own=
driveway, but that only worked for one car. Whoever got home first got to =
park there until Dad got home, then we had to move to wherever we could fin=
d a spot.

When we moved in, the college land across from our house was woods. Then it=
became a grass field that the college used for sports. They fenced it in, =
but hey, that wasn't going to keep us kids out and they didn't really care.=
Frisbee, football and sledding was the norm. Even as busy as the area was =
during the day, a huge green space was a pretty spectacular view for a hous=
e in Flushing.

A few years after Dad sold the house (in '87) they built a glass and steel =
building in the field, right up next to the street. That certainly changed =
the view from the living room window.=20

I left NYC 35 years ago and never looked back. I'm back to looking at woods=
from my living room window.

On Saturday, February 7, 2015 at 4:24:15 PM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:
=20
> What sprayer are you using these days?

I can't remember the name of the gun... Meyer, perhaps? It is a $125 knock=
off of a Binks HVLP that was recommended to me by the local paint equipmen=
t store. I bought it to shoot primer, but like the finish it left so much =
I use it now for everything. It has a 20 oz top cup, 1.2mm needle size, an=
d works great for oil based products.

I shoot the BIN unthinned, and hit the SW product about 10% with thinner un=
less in the dead of summer.

> > "Handy M'am" assured the homeowners that it was a great job, easy to
> > do, and could be done in a day. That fine job was roughly the
> > equivalent of running your car through a hand-free carwash, letting
> > it dry, then painting it with rattle cans of Krylon from HD.
>=20
> That's a perfect way to describe it!

It's awful though, when you think about it. Not every client is some tight=
wad smartass that thinks they know better than you. They are trying to do =
something good, trying to do something for themselves, then some moron come=
s along and tells them how do to it completely wrong. Yes, they can do the=
ir cabinets in a day, but they are ruined after that. The amount of work i=
t would take to do anything besides layer on more latex would make it cheap=
er to replace the cabinets altogether.
=20
> You paint cabinets to last a generation or two... or three.
> Unfortunately, most people only care that the paint lasts until they
> remodel again in 10 years or sell the house to whomever will remodel
> again.
>=20
> Here's to more success in finding those clients who care about and covet
> the kind of quality you provide.

I appreciate that, and back at you! It has been increasingly hard to find =
folks that want you to "do it right". Even most of my well heeled clients =
seem to be in dollar saving mode these days, and have been for some time. =
"Good", is good enough. The sad thing is that most folks these days have n=
o idea of what to expect quality-wise, so unless the finished job is awful,=
they have no idea what they are looking at.

Robert

On Sunday, February 8, 2015 at 10:01:23 AM UTC-5, Greg Guarino wrote:
> On 2/7/2015 5:12 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> > That fine job was roughly the equivalent of running your car through
> > a hand-free carwash, letting it dry, then painting it with rattle
> > cans of Krylon from HD.
>=20
> My brother-in-law has worked as a lifeguard since he was a teenager.=20
> It's quite a close knit group of people, some of whom have known each=20
> other for decades. The older guys mostly work part-time, of course. One=
=20
> of them, who I've met a couple of times, is quite the character.
>=20
> Maybe 20 years ago he had an old beat-up car that he decided to paint.=20
> He bought a whole crate of spray cans and headed off to the beach early=
=20
> to use the empty parking lot as his "booth".
>=20
> This smaller parking field is much coveted by lifeguards and beachgoers=
=20
> alike as it is just steps from the sand. The other, larger lots require=
=20
> a much longer walk.
>=20
> This fellow masked his car to some degree and got the spraying done=20
> before he reported in for his shift on an unusually windy day. Six or so=
=20
> hours later he went back to the car.
>=20
> To hear my brother-in-law tell it, his friend had the only sand-textured=
=20
> auto paint job on Long Island.
>=20

If this was Jones Beach and had it been 40 years ago, it's possible that I =
kicked some sand on the guy's car. ;-) The hours I spent at Jones Beach as =
a young kid with my family and then with my friends as a teenager probably =
total into the thousands.

Growing up in Queens (technically inside NYC, but physically on Long Island=
) I remember a lot of my friends taking their souped up cars to Earl Scheib=
for painting. I'm amazed to see that they are still around. We nicknamed t=
hem Oil Slob because of the low-quality paint jobs they did. They had an $8=
9 special where you did all of the prep work, drove the car over to them an=
d all they did was a quick mask job and the painting.

One of my friends apparently hit a mud puddle on the way to the shop and wh=
en he got his car back the rear rocker panels looked a little rough. After =
closer inspection he realized that the shop had painted right over the dirt=
.

On 2/7/2015 4:12 PM, [email protected] wrote:

> "Handy M'am" assured the homeowners that it was a great job, easy to
do, and could be done in a day. That fine job was roughly the
equivalent of running your car through a hand-free carwash, letting it
dry, then painting it with rattle cans of Krylon from HD. It really
lets a professional know what they are up against when pricing a job
like that.

On 2/7/2015 4:24 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> You paint cabinets to last a generation or two... or three.
> Unfortunately, most people only care that the paint lasts until they
> remodel again in 10 years or sell the house to whomever will remodel
> again.

My landlord in Germany (day job was a dynamiter on Autobahn construction
crews) also built the duplex we lived in at the time, we rented the
second floor, he and his wife lived downstairs.

These were rural Bavarians (village of Darshofen) who took an inordinate
amount of pride in everything they did.

I have yet seen anyone hand paint a house like these folks did, inside
and out. Done entirely with a brush, the walls, and especially the trim
work, was masterfully done, simply superb ... basically you have to see
it to believe what they accomplished. The door and window trim had a
depth to the finish like nothing you would see over here.

There was an Austrian painter here in Houston about ten years ago who
did similar work. Talked to him a few time, but never got to use him on
a project before he retired.

There's painters; and then there are folks who are masters of the art of
painting.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>I called the owner and had a lengthy conversation with him.

It sounds like he's actually done this before... and understands the issues.
That is a far different experience from what a friend of mine experienced
last year. He hired a painter with over 20 years experience who did in fact
get paint on the cabinets... that is the best I can say for the job... I'd
give your guy a shot!

On 2/4/2015 9:09 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> I hate painting.
>
> I am trying to decide if I want to paint the 20 shaker doors and 5 drawer fronts that I am building or to have the painting done professionally.
>
> I hate painting.
>
> I called the local paint store that I use and asked for some recommendations for painters to get some estimates and find out what kind of prep they would like before I dropped off the doors, etc. I figured it's early in the build process and there may be things that I should be aware which might make the painting process easier (and cheaper).
>
> I just want to pass along his recommendations for others to consider/comment on.
>
> I hate painting.
>
> The paint store recommended 2 local companies. I called the first one and they said that they are in the process of moving and referred me to the other company that the paint store had also recommended. I think that's a good sign.
>
> I called the owner and had a lengthy conversation with him. When I told him I was building the doors with poplar frames and MDF panels, the first thing he asked me was where I was in the build process. All I have done so far is cut the rails and stiles to width. No grooves, no joinery, no panels. He was glad to hear that. He then made the following build recommendations to get the doors ready to be painted:
>
> 1 - He is a big fan of Space Balls for any kind of frame and panel door, even when using MDF panels. (belt)
>
> 2 - He recommended pre-priming the panels to ensure that no portion of the blank panel will ever show if something moves (suspenders). He said that if I chose to work with him, he will then recommend a primer which will work with whatever finish/color we decide on.
>
> 3 - He recommended block sanding the sharp edge of the grooves to create a slight chamfer. This will create space to accept the paint and prevent bridging between the frame and panel for a sharper transition.
>
> 4 - He recommended dry hanging the doors, drilling the holes for the handles, etc. before bringing them to be painted. It would be a shame to find out that they needed to be altered after they were painted.
>
> The next step is to send him a picture of my prototype door and a list of sizes in order to get an estimate.
>
> I am pretty impressed so far. He shared a wealth of information and in a friendly yet professional manner.
>

I hate painting.
I "eased' the sharp edges of the frames for 8 doors.
I just sprayed primer on the panels.

I like the advice your painter offered. ;-)

On 2/7/2015 6:04 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>
>> That fine job was roughly the
>> equivalent of running your car through a hand-free carwash, letting
>> it dry, then painting it with rattle cans of Krylon from HD.
>>
>
> Ahem... Sir? And what would be the problem with that?
>

ROFL. I was going to say, "So".

On Saturday, February 7, 2015 at 8:05:28 PM UTC-5, Mike Marlow wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>=20
> > That fine job was roughly the
> > equivalent of running your car through a hand-free carwash, letting
> > it dry, then painting it with rattle cans of Krylon from HD.
> >
>=20
> Ahem... Sir? And what would be the problem with that?
>=20


Laugh if you want to, but I know a guy that painted a Soap Box Derby Master=
's car with 22 rattle cans of Rust-Oleum and the finish was as professional=
as you would get from a top end auto-body paint shop.

I am trying to get a picture of it from some friends, but it was back in 20=
04 so it will take some digging. I'll post it if I can get one.

Back in the day when Soap Box Derby cars could be custom made, it was commo=
n to race throughout the season "in primer". What this meant was the team w=
as still tweaking the shape of the car and it was not ready for a final pai=
nt job. After each tweak to the body, the area would be covered with primer=
making it a little bit harder for competitors to know what was done since =
the last time they saw the car. The primer also protected the bondo from th=
e elements. It was not uncommon to see a car with multiple areas of primer =
along with of good paint if an older car had been modified, etc. The best c=
ompetitors usually had the ugliest cars throughout the season because they =
(we) were always working on them.

This particular family had used Rust-Oleum primer throughout the year and t=
hen took the car to a body shop to be painted before the World Championship=
race in Akron, OH.

The body shop called and asked the dad what kind of primer he had used beca=
use they could not get their primer to adhere to the car. When he told them=
he used Rust-Oleum, they told him that Rust-Oleum contained certain fish o=
ils and that the only thing that would stick to the Rust-Oleum primer witho=
ut major re-work was more Rust-Oleum.=20

Since the family needed the car painted right away, the dad went to Home De=
pot, bought a case of Rust-Oleum spray paint and painted the car himself. N=
ow, I should point out that the dad rebuilds and re-finishes pianos for a l=
iving, so he is not a rookie in the finishing arena. That said, even he was=
amazed at how good of job he did on the car. When he told people it was ra=
ttle-can painted, jaws dropped. Families spend hundreds if not thousands of=
dollars getting their cars painted and he did a phenomenal job with a case=
of rattle-cans.

I really hope I can get my hands on a picture. Stay tuned.

On Thursday, February 5, 2015 at 10:38:38 AM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 2/5/15 7:46 AM, Swingman wrote:
> >
> > When painting wood, 90%+ of an excellent paint job is in the prep,
> > before a can is ever opened.
> >
>=20
> Ain't that the truth.
> I think your 90% estimate is dead on. The actual painting takes 10% or
> less of the time spent on the entire process... if great results are
> required.
>=20
> People think it's so easy and there's no skill or talent involved.
> They buy the cheapest paint and the cheapest brush and go at it and
> wonder why it looks crappy or wonder why someone charges so much to
> paint something.
>=20
> You know what else I've found? Painting doesn't cover up imperfections
> as most people would think. No, painting *highlights* imperfections.
> If you missed a spot that wasn't sanded smooth, you'll find out after
> painting it, that's for darned sure.
>=20
>=20
> --=20
>=20
> -MIKE-

Monday I will be firing the latex slinger I hired to repair walls and paint=
the interior of a house I am remodeling/repairing. If he can't hang latex=
to my satisfaction, he can't shoot finish on cabinets.

Prep is a huge part of painting, but so is experience, technique and knowle=
dge. With that in mind, I am refinishing the cabinets in the kitchen. I w=
ill pull all the doors, fill all the holes, clean them with TSP, and let th=
em sit for a day or two. I will clean them out with a blower on my compres=
sor, then let them sit another day to let the dust settle inside the now va=
cant house.

Next day, spray them with a deglosser/lacquer thinner mist. Clean the gun,=
then immediately shoot all surfaces with BIN (deglosser has a short life s=
pan). Then apply two coats of SW quick dry industrial enamel according to =
specs. Reshoot any surfaces as needed based on paint gloss reflectivity.

Install new hinges on doors and then install on cabinet frames. Adjust for=
alignment. Done.

I estimate all jobs based on prep and post work, rarely on actual spraying.=
I do so much prep that spraying is easy for me, and a nice break from all=
the tedium. Kitchens are the most difficult and tedious, and while I have =
done quite a bit of them, no one really wants to pay for the above processe=
s.

I saw it with my own eyes on one of those "handy M'am" shows, they used a s=
pray detergent cleaner like 409 to degrease, the sanded the center of the d=
oors and painted over the factory lacquer finish

WITH A SMALL ROLLER WITH LATEX PAINT.

All details that couldn't be properly coated with a roller full of paint li=
ke painting the hinges, inside the door panels, etc., were addressed with a=
throw away foam brush. She did warn though, that the job went better if y=
ou took the hardware off before slathering the surfaces with latex.

"Handy M'am" assured the homeowners that it was a great job, easy to do, an=
d could be done in a day. That fine job was roughly the equivalent of runn=
ing your car through a hand-free carwash, letting it dry, then painting it =
with rattle cans of Krylon from HD. It really lets a professional know wha=
t they are up against when pricing a job like that.

Robert

If money is no object, go for it. The guy sound like someone who would be at home on this group - and that is high praise indeed.

Deb

On Sunday, February 8, 2015 at 11:25:26 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 2/8/2015 10:37 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>
>
> > I remember a lot of my friends taking their souped up cars to Earl
> > Scheib for painting. I'm amazed to see that they are still around. We
> > nicknamed them Oil Slob because of the low-quality paint jobs they did.
> > They had an $89 special where you did all of the prep work, drove the
> > car over to them and all they did was a quick mask job and the painting.
> >
>
> You must be younger than me. I remember $29.95 I'll paint any car any
> color! That was around 1960.
>

Maybe it was less than $89. I'm thinking late 60's, early 70's.


> One of my friends had his car done a dark blue. From a distance, it did
> not look too bad, but when you opened the doors, the jambs were the old
> green. That would have been extra.

I forgot about that! That had not changed from your time frame to mine. :-)

On 2/5/2015 8:59 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 4, 2015 at 6:15:33 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>> On 2/4/2015 10:09 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> I hate painting.
>>>
>>> I am trying to decide if I want to paint the 20 shaker doors and 5 drawer fronts that I am building or to have the painting done professionally.
>>>
>>> I hate painting.
>>>
>>> I called the local paint store that I use and asked for some recommendations for painters to get some estimates and find out what kind of prep they would like before I dropped off the doors, etc. I figured it's early in the build process and there may be things that I should be aware which might make the painting process easier (and cheaper).
>>>
>>> I just want to pass along his recommendations for others to consider/comment on.
>>>
>>> I hate painting.
>>>
>>> The paint store recommended 2 local companies. I called the first one and they said that they are in the process of moving and referred me to the other company that the paint store had also recommended. I think that's a good sign.
>>>
>>> I called the owner and had a lengthy conversation with him. When I told him I was building the doors with poplar frames and MDF panels, the first thing he asked me was where I was in the build process. All I have done so far is cut the rails and stiles to width. No grooves, no joinery, no panels. He was glad to hear that. He then made the following build recommendations to get the doors ready to be painted:
>>>
>>> 1 - He is a big fan of Space Balls for any kind of frame and panel door, even when using MDF panels. (belt)
>>>
>>> 2 - He recommended pre-priming the panels to ensure that no portion of the blank panel will ever show if something moves (suspenders). He said that if I chose to work with him, he will then recommend a primer which will work with whatever finish/color we decide on.
>>>
>>> 3 - He recommended block sanding the sharp edge of the grooves to create a slight chamfer. This will create space to accept the paint and prevent bridging between the frame and panel for a sharper transition.
>>>
>>> 4 - He recommended dry hanging the doors, drilling the holes for the handles, etc. before bringing them to be painted. It would be a shame to find out that they needed to be altered after they were painted.
>>>
>>> The next step is to send him a picture of my prototype door and a list of sizes in order to get an estimate.
>>>
>>> I am pretty impressed so far. He shared a wealth of information and in a friendly yet professional manner.
>>>
>>
>> For sure if you have any sharp edges you want to ease them with a pass
>> or two with sand paper. Paint adheres better to a flat or rounded
>> surface than a sharp edge.
>>
>> AND be sure your doors are the correct size for their locations so you
>> don't have to have another repainted should you have to tweak one.
>
> As noted in the fourth item of his recommendation: Dry hang the doors, drill all holes, fix what needs to be fixed, take 'em down and label them.
>
> In my case, it would be best to label them before I take them down. ;-)
>

Yeah! That too! LOL

I hate having to redo anything especially hang, unhang, and rehang a
door. And with a painted door you just about triple the chances of
dinging the finish if you mount it in the wrong place.

On 2/4/2015 10:09 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

>
> I am pretty impressed so far.

Man knows what he is talking about. Next thing is does he walk the talk,
and judging from the referrals, that is probably the case.

When painting wood, 90%+ of an excellent paint job is in the prep,
before a can is ever opened.

Pretty much can guarantee that when you get two or more bids on a paint
job, the lowest will be the one with the least amount or prep built-in
to the bid price, and which will always be obvious in the final product.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 2/4/2015 10:09 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> I hate painting.
>
> I am trying to decide if I want to paint the 20 shaker doors and 5 drawer fronts that I am building or to have the painting done professionally.
>
> I hate painting.
>
> I called the local paint store that I use and asked for some recommendations for painters to get some estimates and find out what kind of prep they would like before I dropped off the doors, etc. I figured it's early in the build process and there may be things that I should be aware which might make the painting process easier (and cheaper).
>
> I just want to pass along his recommendations for others to consider/comment on.
>
> I hate painting.
>
> The paint store recommended 2 local companies. I called the first one and they said that they are in the process of moving and referred me to the other company that the paint store had also recommended. I think that's a good sign.
>
> I called the owner and had a lengthy conversation with him. When I told him I was building the doors with poplar frames and MDF panels, the first thing he asked me was where I was in the build process. All I have done so far is cut the rails and stiles to width. No grooves, no joinery, no panels. He was glad to hear that. He then made the following build recommendations to get the doors ready to be painted:
>
> 1 - He is a big fan of Space Balls for any kind of frame and panel door, even when using MDF panels. (belt)
>
> 2 - He recommended pre-priming the panels to ensure that no portion of the blank panel will ever show if something moves (suspenders). He said that if I chose to work with him, he will then recommend a primer which will work with whatever finish/color we decide on.
>
> 3 - He recommended block sanding the sharp edge of the grooves to create a slight chamfer. This will create space to accept the paint and prevent bridging between the frame and panel for a sharper transition.
>
> 4 - He recommended dry hanging the doors, drilling the holes for the handles, etc. before bringing them to be painted. It would be a shame to find out that they needed to be altered after they were painted.
>
> The next step is to send him a picture of my prototype door and a list of sizes in order to get an estimate.
>
> I am pretty impressed so far. He shared a wealth of information and in a friendly yet professional manner.
>

For sure if you have any sharp edges you want to ease them with a pass
or two with sand paper. Paint adheres better to a flat or rounded
surface than a sharp edge.

AND be sure your doors are the correct size for their locations so you
don't have to have another repainted should you have to tweak one.

On Thursday, February 5, 2015 at 8:46:39 AM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:
> On 2/4/2015 10:09 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>
> >
> > I am pretty impressed so far.
>
> Man knows what he is talking about. Next thing is does he walk the talk,
> and judging from the referrals, that is probably the case.
>
> When painting wood, 90%+ of an excellent paint job is in the prep,
> before a can is ever opened.
>
> Pretty much can guarantee that when you get two or more bids on a paint
> job, the lowest will be the one with the least amount or prep built-in
> to the bid price, and which will always be obvious in the final product.
>
> --
> eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
> Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
> https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
> https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
> http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
> KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

I know it's all based on location, location, location, but if you were to toss out a real rough price per door to prime, paint and paint, assuming the vast majority of the prep work was done by me, where would you land?

1 -- $20 - $30 per door?
2 -- $30 - $40 per door?
3 -- $40 - $50 per door?
4 -- $50 - $60 per door?
5 -- More?

On Thursday, February 5, 2015 at 2:49:37 PM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:
> On 2/5/2015 10:38 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> > On 2/5/15 7:46 AM, Swingman wrote:
> >>
> >> When painting wood, 90%+ of an excellent paint job is in the prep,
> >> before a can is ever opened.
> >>
> >
> > Ain't that the truth.
> > I think your 90% estimate is dead on. The actual painting takes 10% or
> > less of the time spent on the entire process... if great results are
> > required.
> >
> > People think it's so easy and there's no skill or talent involved.
> > They buy the cheapest paint and the cheapest brush and go at it and
> > wonder why it looks crappy or wonder why someone charges so much to
> > paint something.
> >
> > You know what else I've found? Painting doesn't cover up imperfections
> > as most people would think. No, painting *highlights* imperfections.
> > If you missed a spot that wasn't sanded smooth, you'll find out after
> > painting it, that's for darned sure.
>
> Start another kitchen remodel next Monday, so, faced with some interim
> down time, checked the weather and decided spur of the moment to head to
> the lake house in AR, at 10AM yesterday.
>
> Me and the pup were on the road by 10:35. 7 1/2 hours later, Hot
> Springs. Helluva lot colder than Texas.
>
> What did I come up here to do? fark'in PAINT.
>
> ... the damned face frames that I left with primer back in late October;
> and touch up the doors and drawer fronts while I had the paint brush in
> hand. Rolled up the drop cloth and cleaned up just before I typed this.
>
> Too bad it's too cold to fish...
>
It's never too cold to fish.

This was taken about a mile from my house (no, it's not me):

http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/fishingonthebay_zps6c62893d.jpg

This is not me nor near me, but it looks a bit warmer:

http://www.hinzie.com/writer/media/image/50631.jpg

On Sunday, February 8, 2015 at 11:51:04 AM UTC-5, Greg Guarino wrote:

...funny stories snipped...

> He used to conduct most of his painting activities in the shared=20
> community driveway behind our (attached) houses, which was paved with=20
> asphalt.=20

Where abouts did you live? I lived in a block of row houses in Flushing, bu=
t we all had our own driveways in front, with garages under the house. The =
tops of the driveways next to the sidewalks were flat, then the single car =
length driveway sloped steeply down to the garage. Always a hair raising ex=
perience! Imagine parking in a driveway that was barely one car length long=
and dropped a full story in that length! Lot's of brake and gear when tryi=
ng to get up and out onto the street.

As years went on and cars got lower, many of my neighbors had their drivewa=
ys ripped out and redone so the slope started right at the sidewalk, elimin=
ating the sharp drop off. We never did ours because we never parked in the =
garage after Dad and Grandpa built a room for the 4 kids to study in from t=
he interior 2/3 of the garage and left the outside 1/3 for storage.

The next block over did have a common driveway (alley) and garages under th=
e houses and accessed from the rear. 2 sloped entrances to the alley off th=
e side streets to a flat, block long "driveway" behind the houses. Lots of =
fun for skateboards made from a piece of scrap wood and a roller skate spli=
t in two and attached with some bent over nails.=20

On Wednesday, February 4, 2015 at 6:15:33 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
> On 2/4/2015 10:09 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > I hate painting.
> >
> > I am trying to decide if I want to paint the 20 shaker doors and 5 draw=
er fronts that I am building or to have the painting done professionally.
> >
> > I hate painting.
> >
> > I called the local paint store that I use and asked for some recommenda=
tions for painters to get some estimates and find out what kind of prep the=
y would like before I dropped off the doors, etc. I figured it's early in t=
he build process and there may be things that I should be aware which might=
make the painting process easier (and cheaper).
> >
> > I just want to pass along his recommendations for others to consider/co=
mment on.
> >
> > I hate painting.
> >
> > The paint store recommended 2 local companies. I called the first one a=
nd they said that they are in the process of moving and referred me to the =
other company that the paint store had also recommended. I think that's a g=
ood sign.
> >
> > I called the owner and had a lengthy conversation with him. When I told=
him I was building the doors with poplar frames and MDF panels, the first =
thing he asked me was where I was in the build process. All I have done so =
far is cut the rails and stiles to width. No grooves, no joinery, no panels=
. He was glad to hear that. He then made the following build recommendation=
s to get the doors ready to be painted:
> >
> > 1 - He is a big fan of Space Balls for any kind of frame and panel door=
, even when using MDF panels. (belt)
> >
> > 2 - He recommended pre-priming the panels to ensure that no portion of =
the blank panel will ever show if something moves (suspenders). He said tha=
t if I chose to work with him, he will then recommend a primer which will w=
ork with whatever finish/color we decide on.
> >
> > 3 - He recommended block sanding the sharp edge of the grooves to creat=
e a slight chamfer. This will create space to accept the paint and prevent =
bridging between the frame and panel for a sharper transition.
> >
> > 4 - He recommended dry hanging the doors, drilling the holes for the ha=
ndles, etc. before bringing them to be painted. It would be a shame to find=
out that they needed to be altered after they were painted.
> >
> > The next step is to send him a picture of my prototype door and a list =
of sizes in order to get an estimate.
> >
> > I am pretty impressed so far. He shared a wealth of information and in =
a friendly yet professional manner.
> >
>=20
> For sure if you have any sharp edges you want to ease them with a pass=20
> or two with sand paper. Paint adheres better to a flat or rounded=20
> surface than a sharp edge.
>=20
> AND be sure your doors are the correct size for their locations so you=20
> don't have to have another repainted should you have to tweak one.

As noted in the fourth item of his recommendation: Dry hang the doors, dril=
l all holes, fix what needs to be fixed, take 'em down and label them.=20

In my case, it would be best to label them before I take them down. ;-)

On 2/8/2015 8:41 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 2/8/2015 5:43 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]
>>
>>> You paint cabinets to last a generation or two... or three.
>>> Unfortunately, most people only care that the paint lasts until they
>>> remodel again in 10 years or sell the house to whomever will remodel
>>> again.
>>
>> The house in which I was born and grew up was built in 1880. The finish
>> on the kitchen cabinets was still good the last time I saw them circa
>> 1978.
>>
>
>
> That is amazing.... but keep in mind that while 1978 seems a long time
> after 1880, the cabinets are now almost 40% older than the last time you
> saw them.. ;~) It would be interesting to see how they look now.
>
> A few weeks ago I rebuilt a child's toy baby doll crib. It was really
> odd, some parts were not symmetrical some were. It certainly had to go
> back together they way it came apart. Anyway the finish was failing and
> to the point that it instantly loaded up sand paper on my drum and
> finish sanders.
>
> A side note here, I turned the speed of my Festool finish sander down to
> the lowest speed and I absolutely had no more problems with the paper
> loading. I probably sanded with one piece for 30 minutes while at the
> high speed the paper was loaded in less than a minute.
>
> Any way the crib was brought to me mostly in pieces and had mud from
> dirt dobers nests on many of the pieces. And I refinished with a
> "candle light" color stain.
>
> After returning the rebuilt crib I learned that this crib was built for
> this early 30 something girls grandmother, by the grandmothers grand
> father. I'm guessing that the crib was probably built some time in the
> 50's or 60's.
>
>
>
Oops! Make that the 20's or 30's

On 2/8/2015 5:43 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>
>> You paint cabinets to last a generation or two... or three.
>> Unfortunately, most people only care that the paint lasts until they
>> remodel again in 10 years or sell the house to whomever will remodel
>> again.
>
> The house in which I was born and grew up was built in 1880. The finish
> on the kitchen cabinets was still good the last time I saw them circa 1978.
>


That is amazing.... but keep in mind that while 1978 seems a long time
after 1880, the cabinets are now almost 40% older than the last time you
saw them.. ;~) It would be interesting to see how they look now.

A few weeks ago I rebuilt a child's toy baby doll crib. It was really
odd, some parts were not symmetrical some were. It certainly had to go
back together they way it came apart. Anyway the finish was failing and
to the point that it instantly loaded up sand paper on my drum and
finish sanders.

A side note here, I turned the speed of my Festool finish sander down to
the lowest speed and I absolutely had no more problems with the paper
loading. I probably sanded with one piece for 30 minutes while at the
high speed the paper was loaded in less than a minute.

Any way the crib was brought to me mostly in pieces and had mud from
dirt dobers nests on many of the pieces. And I refinished with a
"candle light" color stain.

After returning the rebuilt crib I learned that this crib was built for
this early 30 something girls grandmother, by the grandmothers grand
father. I'm guessing that the crib was probably built some time in the
50's or 60's.

"DerbyDad03" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> I hate painting.
>
> I am trying to decide if I want to paint the 20 shaker doors and 5
> drawer
> fronts that I am building or to have the painting done professionally.
>
> I hate painting.
>
> I called the local paint store that I use and asked for some
> recommendations for painters to get some estimates and find out what
> kind
> of prep they would like before I dropped off the doors, etc. I figured
> it's early in the build process and there may be things that I should be
> aware which might make the painting process easier (and cheaper).
>
> I just want to pass along his recommendations for others to
> consider/comment on.
>
> I hate painting.
>
> The paint store recommended 2 local companies. I called the first one
> and
> they said that they are in the process of moving and referred me to the
> other company that the paint store had also recommended. I think that's
> a
> good sign.
>
> I called the owner and had a lengthy conversation with him. When I told
> him I was building the doors with poplar frames and MDF panels, the
> first
> thing he asked me was where I was in the build process. All I have done
> so far is cut the rails and stiles to width. No grooves, no joinery, no
> panels. He was glad to hear that. He then made the following build
> recommendations to get the doors ready to be painted:
>
> 1 - He is a big fan of Space Balls for any kind of frame and panel door,
> even when using MDF panels. (belt)
>
> 2 - He recommended pre-priming the panels to ensure that no portion of
> the blank panel will ever show if something moves (suspenders). He said
> that if I chose to work with him, he will then recommend a primer which
> will work with whatever finish/color we decide on.
>
> 3 - He recommended block sanding the sharp edge of the grooves to create
> a slight chamfer. This will create space to accept the paint and prevent
> bridging between the frame and panel for a sharper transition.
>
> 4 - He recommended dry hanging the doors, drilling the holes for the
> handles, etc. before bringing them to be painted. It would be a shame to
> find out that they needed to be altered after they were painted.
>
> The next step is to send him a picture of my prototype door and a list
> of
> sizes in order to get an estimate.
>
> I am pretty impressed so far. He shared a wealth of information and in a
> friendly yet professional manner.

Jeez...somebody who knows what he is doing...

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On 2/5/15 7:46 AM, Swingman wrote:
>
> When painting wood, 90%+ of an excellent paint job is in the prep,
> before a can is ever opened.
>

Ain't that the truth.
I think your 90% estimate is dead on. The actual painting takes 10% or
less of the time spent on the entire process... if great results are
required.

People think it's so easy and there's no skill or talent involved.
They buy the cheapest paint and the cheapest brush and go at it and
wonder why it looks crappy or wonder why someone charges so much to
paint something.

You know what else I've found? Painting doesn't cover up imperfections
as most people would think. No, painting *highlights* imperfections.
If you missed a spot that wasn't sanded smooth, you'll find out after
painting it, that's for darned sure.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 2/7/15 4:12 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Thursday, February 5, 2015 at 10:38:38 AM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 2/5/15 7:46 AM, Swingman wrote:
>>>
>>> When painting wood, 90%+ of an excellent paint job is in the
>>> prep, before a can is ever opened.
>>>
>>
>> Ain't that the truth. I think your 90% estimate is dead on. The
>> actual painting takes 10% or less of the time spent on the entire
>> process... if great results are required.
>>
>> People think it's so easy and there's no skill or talent involved.
>> They buy the cheapest paint and the cheapest brush and go at it and
>> wonder why it looks crappy or wonder why someone charges so much to
>> paint something.
>>
>> You know what else I've found? Painting doesn't cover up
>> imperfections as most people would think. No, painting
>> *highlights* imperfections. If you missed a spot that wasn't sanded
>> smooth, you'll find out after painting it, that's for darned sure.
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> -MIKE-
>
> Monday I will be firing the latex slinger I hired to repair walls and
> paint the interior of a house I am remodeling/repairing. If he can't
> hang latex to my satisfaction, he can't shoot finish on cabinets.
>
> Prep is a huge part of painting, but so is experience, technique and
> knowledge. With that in mind, I am refinishing the cabinets in the
> kitchen. I will pull all the doors, fill all the holes, clean them
> with TSP, and let them sit for a day or two. I will clean them out
> with a blower on my compressor, then let them sit another day to let
> the dust settle inside the now vacant house.
>
> Next day, spray them with a deglosser/lacquer thinner mist. Clean
> the gun, then immediately shoot all surfaces with BIN (deglosser has
> a short life span). Then apply two coats of SW quick dry industrial
> enamel according to specs. Reshoot any surfaces as needed based on
> paint gloss reflectivity.
>

What sprayer are you using these days?


> Install new hinges on doors and then install on cabinet frames.
> Adjust for alignment. Done.
>
> I estimate all jobs based on prep and post work, rarely on actual
> spraying. I do so much prep that spraying is easy for me, and a nice
> break from all the tedium. Kitchens are the most difficult and
> tedious, and while I have done quite a bit of them, no one really
> wants to pay for the above processes.
>
> I saw it with my own eyes on one of those "handy M'am" shows, they
> used a spray detergent cleaner like 409 to degrease, the sanded the
> center of the doors and painted over the factory lacquer finish
>
> WITH A SMALL ROLLER WITH LATEX PAINT.
>
> All details that couldn't be properly coated with a roller full of
> paint like painting the hinges, inside the door panels, etc., were
> addressed with a throw away foam brush. She did warn though, that
> the job went better if you took the hardware off before slathering
> the surfaces with latex.
>
> "Handy M'am" assured the homeowners that it was a great job, easy to
> do, and could be done in a day. That fine job was roughly the
> equivalent of running your car through a hand-free carwash, letting
> it dry, then painting it with rattle cans of Krylon from HD.

That's a perfect way to describe it!


> It really lets a professional know what they are up against when
> pricing a job like that.
>
> Robert
>

You paint cabinets to last a generation or two... or three.
Unfortunately, most people only care that the paint lasts until they
remodel again in 10 years or sell the house to whomever will remodel
again.

Here's to more success in finding those clients who care about and covet
the kind of quality you provide.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

[email protected] wrote:

> That fine job was roughly the
> equivalent of running your car through a hand-free carwash, letting
> it dry, then painting it with rattle cans of Krylon from HD.
>

Ahem... Sir? And what would be the problem with that?

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]

> You paint cabinets to last a generation or two... or three.
> Unfortunately, most people only care that the paint lasts until they
> remodel again in 10 years or sell the house to whomever will remodel
> again.

The house in which I was born and grew up was built in 1880. The finish
on the kitchen cabinets was still good the last time I saw them circa
1978.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On 2/7/2015 5:12 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> That fine job was roughly the equivalent of running your car through
> a hand-free carwash, letting it dry, then painting it with rattle
> cans of Krylon from HD.

My brother-in-law has worked as a lifeguard since he was a teenager.
It's quite a close knit group of people, some of whom have known each
other for decades. The older guys mostly work part-time, of course. One
of them, who I've met a couple of times, is quite the character.

Maybe 20 years ago he had an old beat-up car that he decided to paint.
He bought a whole crate of spray cans and headed off to the beach early
to use the empty parking lot as his "booth".

This smaller parking field is much coveted by lifeguards and beachgoers
alike as it is just steps from the sand. The other, larger lots require
a much longer walk.

This fellow masked his car to some degree and got the spraying done
before he reported in for his shift on an unusually windy day. Six or so
hours later he went back to the car.

To hear my brother-in-law tell it, his friend had the only sand-textured
auto paint job on Long Island.

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On 2/8/2015 10:37 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Sunday, February 8, 2015 at 10:01:23 AM UTC-5, Greg Guarino
> wrote:
>> On 2/7/2015 5:12 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> That fine job was roughly the equivalent of running your car
>>> through a hand-free carwash, letting it dry, then painting it
>>> with rattle cans of Krylon from HD.
>>
>> My brother-in-law has worked as a lifeguard since he was a
>> teenager. It's quite a close knit group of people, some of whom
>> have known each other for decades. The older guys mostly work
>> part-time, of course. One of them, who I've met a couple of times,
>> is quite the character.
>>
>> Maybe 20 years ago he had an old beat-up car that he decided to
>> paint. He bought a whole crate of spray cans and headed off to the
>> beach early to use the empty parking lot as his "booth".
>>
>> This smaller parking field is much coveted by lifeguards and
>> beachgoers alike as it is just steps from the sand. The other,
>> larger lots require a much longer walk.
>>
>> This fellow masked his car to some degree and got the spraying
>> done before he reported in for his shift on an unusually windy day.
>> Six or so hours later he went back to the car.
>>
>> To hear my brother-in-law tell it, his friend had the only
>> sand-textured auto paint job on Long Island.
>>
>
> If this was Jones Beach and had it been 40 years ago, it's possible
> that I kicked some sand on the guy's car. ;-)

Not 40 years ago, but yes, Jones Beach.

The hours I spent at
> Jones Beach as a young kid with my family and then with my friends as
> a teenager probably total into the thousands.
>
> Growing up in Queens (technically inside NYC, but physically on Long
> Island) I remember a lot of my friends taking their souped up cars to
> Earl Scheib for painting. I'm amazed to see that they are still
> around. We nicknamed them Oil Slob because of the low-quality paint
> jobs they did. They had an $89 special where you did all of the prep
> work, drove the car over to them and all they did was a quick mask
> job and the painting.

We had a pretty eccentric neighbor when I was a young boy. He was not
easily swayed by the opinion of others, and sometimes not by common
sense. He liked to paint things; he spent hours painting the flowers on
the balusters of his wrought-iron railings in multiple bright colors,
for instance. He also had an inordinate fondness for Durham's Rock Hard
Water Putty, which he seemed to have cases of on hand at all times. He
also had cans of paint - possibly hundreds - in every color imaginable
in his rabbit warren of a garage.

It was the Sixties and he had a behemoth of a station wagon that must
have been '50s vintage. He was forever touching it up and sculpting new
fender bits out of - yes really - the aforementioned putty. I can't
remember the original color for certain, but I think it was an
aquamarine hue.

At some point he decided - against his general habit - to take the car
for a "professional" job. You guessed it: the Earl Scheib "leave the
windows open and we'll do the interior for free" special.

It came back red; a fire-engine red that was an odd match with the
pastel interior. But apparently our neighbor detected a flaw or two.
From the dark depths of his garage came red oil-based wall paint and a
one-inch brush. He touched up a spot here, a spot there, another bit
over there, but still managed to find more places that didn't look quite
right. The more he touched up, the more flaws he found. He was at this
for hours, after which he had - and I swear I'm not making this up -
painted the entire car with house paint.

But it wasn't as attractive a finish as you might expect. :)

Because he had not originally set out to paint the whole car, he had
thousands of 1" "touch-up" brushstrokes in every conceivable direction.
It looked almost exactly like the finger-painting kids used to do in
kindergarten, except that it was all one color.

There are too many stories about this fellow for me to recount them all
here, but I'll add this:

He used to conduct most of his painting activities in the shared
community driveway behind our (attached) houses, which was paved with
asphalt. After a while he had drips of every shade of paint on the
section that was behind his garage. He decided it would be a neighborly
gesture to paint (yes, really) his portion of the driveway black. Of
course, beyond the fact that house-paint was not designed to paint
asphalt, the jet-black paint he used was a great deal darker than the
weathered dark grey of the driveway.

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On 2/8/2015 1:36 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Sunday, February 8, 2015 at 11:51:04 AM UTC-5, Greg Guarino wrote:
>
> ...funny stories snipped...
>
>> He used to conduct most of his painting activities in the shared
>> community driveway behind our (attached) houses, which was paved with
>> asphalt.
>
> Where abouts did you live? I lived in a block of row houses in Flushing, but we all had our own driveways in front, with garages under the house. The tops of the driveways next to the sidewalks were flat, then the single car length driveway sloped steeply down to the garage. Always a hair raising experience! Imagine parking in a driveway that was barely one car length long and dropped a full story in that length! Lot's of brake and gear when trying to get up and out onto the street.
>
> As years went on and cars got lower, many of my neighbors had their driveways ripped out and redone so the slope started right at the sidewalk, eliminating the sharp drop off. We never did ours because we never parked in the garage after Dad and Grandpa built a room for the 4 kids to study in from the interior 2/3 of the garage and left the outside 1/3 for storage.
>
> The next block over did have a common driveway (alley) and garages under the houses and accessed from the rear. 2 sloped entrances to the alley off the side streets to a flat, block long "driveway" behind the houses. Lots of fun for skateboards made from a piece of scrap wood and a roller skate split in two and attached with some bent over nails.
>
>
I grew up in Glendale, Queens. There are still houses in the
neighborhood that are arranged in both ways you describe. Our block had
the community driveway. It was great for us kids. The garages were way
too small for 1960s cars (the houses were built in the '30s) and fewer
families had more than one car to begin with, so almost all the cars
stayed parked on the street out front.

The back alley was our playground. Cars coming through were rare, and
they drove very slowly. We played basketball, handball, tag and catch,
drew "skelly" boards with chalk on the pavement, ran races, and visited
each others houses, all within earshot of our parents. It was a little
narrow for touch football.

I lived for about 17 years in three locations in Flushing.

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On 2/8/2015 10:37 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:


I remember a lot of my friends taking their souped up cars to Earl
Scheib for painting. I'm amazed to see that they are still around. We
nicknamed them Oil Slob because of the low-quality paint jobs they did.
They had an $89 special where you did all of the prep work, drove the
car over to them and all they did was a quick mask job and the painting.
>

You must be younger than me. I remember $29.95 I'll paint any car any
color! That was around 1960.

One of my friends had his car done a dark blue. From a distance, it did
not look too bad, but when you opened the doors, the jambs were the old
green. That would have been extra.

On 2/5/2015 10:38 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 2/5/15 7:46 AM, Swingman wrote:
>>
>> When painting wood, 90%+ of an excellent paint job is in the prep,
>> before a can is ever opened.
>>
>
> Ain't that the truth.
> I think your 90% estimate is dead on. The actual painting takes 10% or
> less of the time spent on the entire process... if great results are
> required.
>
> People think it's so easy and there's no skill or talent involved.
> They buy the cheapest paint and the cheapest brush and go at it and
> wonder why it looks crappy or wonder why someone charges so much to
> paint something.
>
> You know what else I've found? Painting doesn't cover up imperfections
> as most people would think. No, painting *highlights* imperfections.
> If you missed a spot that wasn't sanded smooth, you'll find out after
> painting it, that's for darned sure.

Start another kitchen remodel next Monday, so, faced with some interim
down time, checked the weather and decided spur of the moment to head to
the lake house in AR, at 10AM yesterday.

Me and the pup were on the road by 10:35. 7 1/2 hours later, Hot
Springs. Helluva lot colder than Texas.

What did I come up here to do? fark'in PAINT.

... the damned face frames that I left with primer back in late October;
and touch up the doors and drawer fronts while I had the paint brush in
hand. Rolled up the drop cloth and cleaned up just before I typed this.

Too bad it's too cold to fish...

--
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Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
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