I have almost completed painting 400 feet of crown molding (before
installing). I applied a shellac-based primer to bare pine, waited 1
week lightly sanded and dusted, applied a water-based semi-gloss
enamel, waited one week, sanded lightly, dusted off, and applied a
second coat of enamel. In three spots during the final painting the
first coat sluffed off to the bare primer! I used a clean paint brush
with nylon bristles. Any ideas what could cause this?
The "palm of the hand" is probably a good guess. Today's
lubricants/solvents with all the goodies in them hang around on the
hands sometimes for a while. And remember, it may not have actually
been you. The guys that sent it out to you may have oiled or lubed
something before handling your material. Once the propellants
disappear from lube sprays they can be hard to detect. Since you used
a solvent based primer, it is easy for the oils to migrate through the
shellac/primer, and the longer it sits, the more will surface.
When I run into this, here's what I do: clean the spots with some kind
of thinner (lacquer will chew through just about any lubes and a
multitude of other stuff), sand lightly, and clean again. The apply
your Zinsser.
Allow to dry completely (1/2 hour should be more then enough) and apply
your paint as soon as possible.
I would think that would probably do it for you.
Robert
Mike Marlow wrote:
<<If it were oil leaching
up through I'd expect a reaction with the primer. I think I'd rough up
the
affected areas and re-prime. >>
It can be harder to detect in some cases than others. And you know now
it is something on the wood. All you need now if proper prep and you
are on your way.
We run this very problem from time to time when we repainting door
frames (and sometimes the doors themselves) when home owners give the
hinges a little spritz of some lubricant. It gets on the doors and on
the frame, and even when we prep it and prime it, after it sits for a
while until we get to painting that stuff sneaks back out.
Several years ago the combined brain trust on the job noticed this type
of paint problem and we were able to figure out what was going on
because we could see the pattern of bad adhesion exactly lining up with
the hinges. A quick word with the client confirmed this as the
problem.
I clean with lacquer thinner as it is extremely/immediately effective
on most lubricants and it flashes off really quick so you can continue
working in minutes. But it is dangerous, and the fumes will knock down
a horse. Imagine your significant other's nail polish fumes times 100
and you have it.
Here's something to consider, and I am just putting this out there
since it works for me. Our local paint rep for my favorite paint
spends a lot of time defending his product, and the problems are almost
always improper application. I had the same adhesion problem on a
door, under a knob and it was a streak that went from knob to slab
(exterior door). He said that the solvent based primers often picked
up enough oil or silicone to contaminate the primer, making hard for
the primer to seal completely but also for paint to stick to the
contaminated primer. (I immediately saw in my mind's eye one of the
guys brushing the primer on, effectively spreading around the
contaminates with his brush). Our primer was hard, but the paint still
pulled away in small streaks while it was drying.
So... since we had nothing to lose, we sanded off the paint/primer back
to good areas. I cleaned it with lacquer thinner, and then we put on
WATER based Kilz 2 as he suggested. Yup, water base. I was really
reluctant as I had never used water based stain killer/primer on
anything. And thankfully it worked fine. I guess the water didn't
have the solvents to activate dissolve whatever it was on the door.
Finshed out the door as usual, and something new learned.
This is our modified method when we have a few hundred feet of moldings
to prime/install/paint: put it all out on the saw horses and shoot it
all with water based Kilz with the airless. If you use the airless,
you will not spread around contaminates (barbecue grease, taco grease
drippings, pizza grease, fried chicken grease, from the delivery/yard
guys, or oil from a careless spraying, etc.) that seem to wind up on
your moldings and material from time to time. I don't like the water
based stuff for actual stain blocking as much as the old solvent based,
but it makes a good primer.
Do what Mike said; sand all of it off the affected areas. Clean with
some kind of solvent, then prime (think about the water based stuff if
you sand back and it still doesn't work) and paint.
Since you have 3 spots to experiment on and rework, just do one, and if
your method works then take the time needed to do all three areas. Let
us know how you are doing.
Robert
Phisherman (in [email protected]) said:
| I have almost completed painting 400 feet of crown molding (before
| installing). I applied a shellac-based primer to bare pine,
| waited 1 week lightly sanded and dusted, applied a water-based
| semi-gloss enamel, waited one week, sanded lightly, dusted off, and
| applied a second coat of enamel. In three spots during the final
| painting the first coat sluffed off to the bare primer! I used a
| clean paint brush with nylon bristles. Any ideas what could cause
| this?
Sounds like a PIA! If you're looking for guesses, mine would be: wax
or oil contamination in the shellac, oil in the brush, or WD-40
sprayed in the shop sometime during the week the primer dried.
I'm not a painting guru, so these are truly guesses - and worth not
more (likely less) than what you paid for 'em. :-)
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto
On Sun, 05 Mar 2006 18:00:43 -0500, Robatoy <[email protected]>
wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
> Phisherman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I have almost completed painting 400 feet of crown molding (before
>> installing). I applied a shellac-based primer to bare pine, waited 1
>> week lightly sanded and dusted, applied a water-based semi-gloss
>> enamel, waited one week, sanded lightly, dusted off, and applied a
>> second coat of enamel. In three spots during the final painting the
>> first coat sluffed off to the bare primer! I used a clean paint brush
>> with nylon bristles. Any ideas what could cause this?
>
>Are the spots fingertip size?
>Have those fingertips been exposed to any type of caulking?
No. They are irregularly shaped, perhaps the size of the palm of a
hand. I have not used any caulking, nor solvent in the shop in the
past 4 weeks. My plan is to sand, re-prime (Zissler), then finish.
It's no big deal, I just wondered what could be the cause.
On 5 Mar 2006 22:25:46 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
>The "palm of the hand" is probably a good guess. Today's
>lubricants/solvents with all the goodies in them hang around on the
>hands sometimes for a while. And remember, it may not have actually
>been you. The guys that sent it out to you may have oiled or lubed
>something before handling your material. Once the propellants
>disappear from lube sprays they can be hard to detect. Since you used
>a solvent based primer, it is easy for the oils to migrate through the
>shellac/primer, and the longer it sits, the more will surface.
>
>When I run into this, here's what I do: clean the spots with some kind
>of thinner (lacquer will chew through just about any lubes and a
>multitude of other stuff), sand lightly, and clean again. The apply
>your Zinsser.
>
>Allow to dry completely (1/2 hour should be more then enough) and apply
>your paint as soon as possible.
>
>I would think that would probably do it for you.
>
>Robert
I sanded the areas today, down to the primer. (The primer won't sand
off with 220 grit.) Then I applied the paint. Sadly, as the paint
dried it turned into a rough texture and it looks like the paint won't
stick to the primer. Like you said, I'm believing some kind of oil
is coming up through the shellac-based primer. Just what is lacquer
thinner? Do you think acetone will clean it? I could use a TSP
solution (excellent at dissolving grease), but that means the wood may
get water in it. The good news is that I can work on this problem
in the shop and not the ceiling! And I'm lucky this problem is
limited to only three areas. Good post, thanks Robert!
In article <[email protected]>,
Phisherman <[email protected]> wrote:
> I have almost completed painting 400 feet of crown molding (before
> installing). I applied a shellac-based primer to bare pine, waited 1
> week lightly sanded and dusted, applied a water-based semi-gloss
> enamel, waited one week, sanded lightly, dusted off, and applied a
> second coat of enamel. In three spots during the final painting the
> first coat sluffed off to the bare primer! I used a clean paint brush
> with nylon bristles. Any ideas what could cause this?
Are the spots fingertip size?
Have those fingertips been exposed to any type of caulking?
"Phisherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I sanded the areas today, down to the primer. (The primer won't sand
> off with 220 grit.)
So - the primer is dry and showing no signs of softness, etc. In other
words - good primer.
> Then I applied the paint. Sadly, as the paint
> dried it turned into a rough texture and it looks like the paint won't
> stick to the primer. Like you said, I'm believing some kind of oil
> is coming up through the shellac-based primer.
Not likely. If it were, there would be evidence in the primer itself.
You're not seeing adhesion problems with the primer and the primer itself is
cured, so it's not likely that you're bleeding anything through it. I'd be
more concerned that the primer itself is leaching. If it were oil leaching
up through I'd expect a reaction with the primer. I think I'd rough up the
affected areas and re-prime.
> Just what is lacquer thinner?
Exactly that. Typically large concentrations of acetone and/or toluene with
a few keytones and some other pretty nasty stuff. Disolves almost
everything known to man... except silicone. Nothing seems to breakdown that
stuff. Here's an MSDS on one lacquer thinner product...
http://www.setonresourcecenter.com/msds/docs/wcd00034/wcd03410.htm
> Do you think acetone will clean it?
It will clean it, but it can also very quickly disolve it. A paint thinner
(mineral spirits) might serve better, or denatured alcohol. If you use
acetone, use it very sparingly and quickly. Don't saturate the primer.
> I could use a TSP
> solution (excellent at dissolving grease), but that means the wood may
> get water in it.
If you've got a good primer coat and don't hose the TSP on, you should be
ok.
My original thoughts when you posted this problem were that it sounded to me
like you had a mixture problem and did not get your primer well mixed,
resulting in those three problematic spots. I'm still thinking this may be
the case, so I'd go with re-priming the affected areas and a small area
surrounding them.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
CW (in [email protected]) said:
| "Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
| news:[email protected]...
|
|| Sounds like a PIA! If you're looking for guesses, mine would be:
|| wax or oil contamination in the shellac, oil in the brush, or WD-40
|| sprayed in the shop sometime during the week the primer dried.
|
| Sounds like likely causes except for the WD-40. Unless sprayed on
| the work, that wouldn't make any difference.
I don't use all that much of the stuff, so I buy it in aerosol cans
that come with a little plastic tube for the aiming-impaired. I've
managed on a couple of occasions to shoot the darned stuff
(accidentally) halfway across the shop and onto things that really
didn't need it. If I can smell it, then I assume there might be some
droplets floating about.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto
I solved this issue on the second try. Here's what I did. Using 120
grit sanded the areas down to the primer (wow--that Zissler
shellac-based primer really sticks to bare pine!). I cleaned the
areas with acetone. Sanded with 220 grit. Applied the shellac-based
primer. Sanded with 220 grit. Applied two finish coats, sanding with
220 between coats. Looks great. Thanks for all the suggestions. I'm
still not sure of the cause, but at least the issue is solved and
added to my experience.
On Sun, 05 Mar 2006 20:37:42 GMT, Phisherman <[email protected]> wrote:
>I have almost completed painting 400 feet of crown molding (before
>installing). I applied a shellac-based primer to bare pine, waited 1
>week lightly sanded and dusted, applied a water-based semi-gloss
>enamel, waited one week, sanded lightly, dusted off, and applied a
>second coat of enamel. In three spots during the final painting the
>first coat sluffed off to the bare primer! I used a clean paint brush
>with nylon bristles. Any ideas what could cause this?
Sounds like likely causes except for the WD-40. Unless sprayed on the work,
that wouldn't make any difference.
"Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Phisherman (in [email protected]) said:
> Sounds like a PIA! If you're looking for guesses, mine would be: wax
> or oil contamination in the shellac, oil in the brush, or WD-40
> sprayed in the shop sometime during the week the primer dried.
>