Go to: http://air.ingersoll-rand.com/AST/common.htm
This is an extract from their article:
>snip< Nearly all of the compressed air system manufacturers recommend
that customers do not use plastic piping or soldered copper fittings as
discharge piping for compressed air systems. Plastic piping is not
recommended because some types might react with compressor fluids,
soften due to heat or shatter due to pressure or pulsation of the
compressor. Soldered, copper fittings will eventually work loose due to
pulsating caused by the compressed air system >snip<
I rest my case.
Peace~Sr Edgar
=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=
=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8
>Soldered, copper fittings will eventually work loose due to
>pulsating caused by the compressed air system >snip<
>
>I rest my case.
That sounds like a case made by lawyers, not engineers. It's like the warning
on Qtips that says not to put them in your ear.
Don't most compressors have buffer tanks that smooth out the pulsations?
Brian wrote:
Group: rec.woodworking Date: Sun, Dec 21, 2003, 8:00pm (EST+5) From:
[email protected] (Brian=A0Elfert)
My stationary air compressor has a 1/2" NPT fitting for the output.
I will be using copper pipe for my air piping. Should I use 1/2" or 3/4"
copper pipe for my main lines? The internal diameter of 1/2" copper pipe
seems awful small. (Yes, industry does use copper for air piping.)
Brian Elfert
******************************************************
Please use soft copper tubing and compression fittings no matter what
size you choose. Black iron pipe with threaded fittings is also
extensively used but requires a pipe cutter and a stock and die. Do not
use hard copper tubing and sweated (soldered) fittings.
This suggestion is made for obvious safety reasons.
Peace ~ Sir Edgar
=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=
=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8
I used about 2 feet of air hose to join my air system to the compressor.
dave
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> "Sir Edgar" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> Go to: http://air.ingersoll-rand.com/AST/common.htm
>
> This is an extract from their article:
>
>
>>Soldered, copper fittings will eventually work loose due to
>
> pulsating caused by the compressed air system >snip<
>
> I rest my case.
>
> Peace~Sr Edgar
> øøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøø
>
> Not to argue the point, but the IR dealer put copper in our plant. He did,
> however, use flex couplings at the compressor to take out most of the
> pulsations.
> Ed
>
>
I HOPE there's not a safety issue with using sweated copper for air .. .. ..
I just plumbed my whole shop with it !! !! !!
What's the danger ?? ?? ??
Sir Edgar wrote:
> Brian wrote:
>
> Group: rec.woodworking Date: Sun, Dec 21, 2003, 8:00pm (EST+5) From:
> [email protected] (Brian Elfert)
> My stationary air compressor has a 1/2" NPT fitting for the output.
> I will be using copper pipe for my air piping. Should I use 1/2" or 3/4"
> copper pipe for my main lines? The internal diameter of 1/2" copper pipe
> seems awful small. (Yes, industry does use copper for air piping.)
> Brian Elfert
> ******************************************************
> Please use soft copper tubing and compression fittings no matter what
> size you choose. Black iron pipe with threaded fittings is also
> extensively used but requires a pipe cutter and a stock and die. Do not
> use hard copper tubing and sweated (soldered) fittings.
> This suggestion is made for obvious safety reasons.
>
> Peace ~ Sir Edgar
> øøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøø
--
I AM NOT PARANOID .. .. .. but EVERYONE thinks I am !! !! !!
<<<__ Bob __>>>
Bob wrote in reply to my post shown below:
Group: rec.woodworking Date: Mon, Dec 22, 2003, 5:17am (EST+5) From:
[email protected] (<<<___=A0Bob=A0___>>>)
I HOPE there's not a safety issue with using sweated copper for air ..
. .. I just plumbed my whole shop with it !! !! !!
What's the danger ?? ?? ??
Sir Edgar wrote:
Brian wrote:
Group: rec.woodworking Date: Sun, Dec 21, 2003, 8:00pm (EST+5) From:
[email protected] (Brian Elfert)
My stationary air compressor has a 1/2" NPT fitting for the output. I
will be using copper pipe for my air piping. Should I use 1/2" or 3/4"
copper pipe for my main lines? The internal diameter of 1/2" copper pipe
seems awful small. (Yes, industry does use copper for air piping.) Brian
Elfert
**********************************************
Please use soft copper tubing and compression fittings no matter what
size you choose. Black iron pipe with threaded fittings is also
extensively used but requires a pipe cutter and a stock and die. Do not
use hard copper tubing and sweated (soldered) fittings. This suggestion
is made for obvious safety reasons.
Peace ~ Sir Edgar
******************************************************
Bob ~ Sweated copper piping is used for water piping. If a poorly
sweated connection breaks loose there is only inconvenience from the
possible water damage that occurs. If a joint fails with a pipe
containing compressed air it comes apart with explosive force. You can
demonstrate this by removing an air hose under pressure that uses a
quick disconnect fitting. Also, most copper tubing is type "M" thin
wall type which is made for water service only. There is a type "L" wth
a thicker wall. If it were my shop I would redo it using the soft copper
tubing and compression fittings. I avoided the expense and trouble of
running tubing by installing an industrial type spring return hose reel
next to my compressor and 50 ft. of hose. I also have an additional 25
ft. of hose that I can attach to it with a quick disconnect fitting if I
need to. I did not mention never to use PVC pipe as I assumed the
danger of doing this was well known and I am glad to see that it was
covered in other posts. I apologize for the length of this post but I
feel that it was warranted from a standpoint of avoiding possible
injury to a fellow woodworker.
Peace ~ Sir Edgar
=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=
=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8
My copper is all in the attic and wall joists .. .. if something ever came
apart, I'd certainly hear it but would not see it. When I finished
sweating in the whole system, I charged it to over 200psi and left it for
about 6 months. It didn't come apart nor did it leak, at least not after I
made a few "repairs". I feel sure that this system is as safe as I can
make it .. .. .. I don't plan to ever run more than about 125psi on a
routine basis. I don't argue the point that it may be possible for a joint
to come apart, but I don't see this ever happening in this particular
installation., but thanx for the input. I did use the heavier-walled
tubing which was recommended by a structural engineer where I work. We
have miles of compresses air lines there and it is almost all sweated
copper.
>
> I HOPE there's not a safety issue with using sweated copper for air ..
> . .. I just plumbed my whole shop with it !! !! !!
> What's the danger ?? ?? ??
>
> ******************************************************
> Bob ~ Sweated copper piping is used for water piping. If a poorly
> sweated connection breaks loose there is only inconvenience from the
> possible water damage that occurs. If a joint fails with a pipe
> containing compressed air it comes apart with explosive force. You can
> demonstrate this by removing an air hose under pressure that uses a
> quick disconnect fitting. Also, most copper tubing is type "M" thin
> wall type which is made for water service only. There is a type "L" wth
> a thicker wall. If it were my shop I would redo it using the soft copper
> tubing and compression fittings. I avoided the expense and trouble of
> running tubing by installing an industrial type spring return hose reel
> next to my compressor and 50 ft. of hose. I also have an additional 25
> ft. of hose that I can attach to it with a quick disconnect fitting if I
> need to. I did not mention never to use PVC pipe as I assumed the
> danger of doing this was well known and I am glad to see that it was
> covered in other posts. I apologize for the length of this post but I
> feel that it was warranted from a standpoint of avoiding possible
> injury to a fellow woodworker.
>
> Peace ~ Sir Edgar
> øøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøø
>
>
--
I AM NOT PARANOID .. .. .. but EVERYONE thinks I am !! !! !!
<<<__ Bob __>>>
On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 09:50:29 -0500 (EST), [email protected] (Sir
Edgar) wrote:
> Do not
>use hard copper tubing and sweated (soldered) fittings. This suggestion
>is made for obvious safety reasons.
why? the safety issue isn't clear to me at all. hard copper is
probably easier to get a good solder joint with. I cant see rupture or
corrosion being an issue with either of them.
Bridger
> why? the safety issue isn't clear to me at all. hard copper is
> probably easier to get a good solder joint with. I cant see rupture or
> corrosion being an issue with either of them.
> Bridger
Hard copper is often used in industrial settings. It is cost effective
because it is cheap to install and if you have to make a cut in a line to
add another station, copper fittings are generally much easier to work with
than iron pipe.
As with any material, care should be used in installation. Any gas under
pressure can have disastrous effects if a catastrophic failure should occur.
Copper will not "explode" but would split or a fitting could come loose.
Ed
"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> writes:
>Depends on what you want as a final result. The 1/2" line will carry more
>air than the tool can use of the compressor can put out. I don't have my
>reference book here, but that size will pass an incredible amount of cfm.
If I needed to supply 8 CFM at 100 PSI, would 1/2" copper be good enough?
Seperate issue:
Could I run compressed air 100 feet underground to a shed and still get 8
CFM at 100 PSI? I'm trying to figure out if I need to buy a seperate
compressor.
Brian Elfert
"TeamCasa" <[email protected]> writes:
>Brian, A word of caution, 100' of air line underground will trap and
>collect a ton of water. If you must install it under ground, slope it the
>same as you would a sewer line. At the end (low side) of the line build in
>a drip leg and a way to discharge the water.
I was wondering about that. I suppose I would have problems with the line
freezing in the winter, as it gets way below 32F here. I have to run the
line exposed 1/4 of the way as I'm not going to tunnel under the basement
foundation and the garage.
I thought if I put a good dessicant filter on the line I might be okay,
but thinking about it more, the cold will cause water to condense out of
the air.
I'm starting to think another compressor in the shed might be my best
option.
Brian Elfert
"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> writes:
>Good point. Consider a separator before the line goes underground. There
>are cartridge type filters available.
How does a seperator differ from a normal filter, or is this just another
name for a filter? The best option would probably be a drier, but another
compressor is less money.
Brian Elfert
"Sir Edgar" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Go to: http://air.ingersoll-rand.com/AST/common.htm
This is an extract from their article:
> Soldered, copper fittings will eventually work loose due to
pulsating caused by the compressed air system >snip<
I rest my case.
Peace~Sr Edgar
øøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøø
Not to argue the point, but the IR dealer put copper in our plant. He did,
however, use flex couplings at the compressor to take out most of the
pulsations.
Ed
Brian Elfert <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> My stationary air compressor has a 1/2" NPT fitting for the output.
>
> I will be using copper pipe for my air piping. Should I use 1/2" or 3/4"
> copper pipe for my main lines? The internal diameter of 1/2" copper pipe
> seems awful small. (Yes, industry does use copper for air piping.)
>
> Brian Elfert
I used 1/2" copper and it works fine.
"Brian Elfert" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:3fe610ef$0$967
>
> If I needed to supply 8 CFM at 100 PSI, would 1/2" copper be good enough?
>
A 1/16" dia line will supply 6.5 cfm @ 100 psi
A 3/32" dia line will supply 14.6 cfm @ 100 psi.
1/4" = 104 cfm
> Seperate issue:
>
> Could I run compressed air 100 feet underground to a shed and still get 8
> CFM at 100 PSI? I'm trying to figure out if I need to buy a seperate
> compressor.
>
> Brian Elfert
For that distance, I'd go with 3/4". It will supply more air and has
greater potential for growth. You'd not want to dig a second trench next
year or two. If you got into really large air use, you can install a
receiver in the shed. The 3/4" line at that distance should allow at least
30 cfm. Big grinders only use 20 cfm.
For more information, go to Lee Valley and buy the Pocket Reference book.
It is about 10 bucks and has all sorts of handy information.
Ed
[email protected]
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome
sweated copper done properly is FINE. I checked with the fire
department and others when deciding what materials to use for an auto
shop air system. Plastic is a definite no-no. There are three kinds of
copper pipe, L, K, and M. Get "L"; it's the thickest.
dave
dave
<<<___ Bob ___>>> wrote:
> I HOPE there's not a safety issue with using sweated copper for air .. .. ..
> I just plumbed my whole shop with it !! !! !!
>
> What's the danger ?? ?? ??
>
> Sir Edgar wrote:
>
>
>>Brian wrote:
>>
>>Group: rec.woodworking Date: Sun, Dec 21, 2003, 8:00pm (EST+5) From:
>>[email protected] (Brian Elfert)
>>My stationary air compressor has a 1/2" NPT fitting for the output.
>>I will be using copper pipe for my air piping. Should I use 1/2" or 3/4"
>>copper pipe for my main lines? The internal diameter of 1/2" copper pipe
>>seems awful small. (Yes, industry does use copper for air piping.)
>>Brian Elfert
>>******************************************************
>>Please use soft copper tubing and compression fittings no matter what
>>size you choose. Black iron pipe with threaded fittings is also
>>extensively used but requires a pipe cutter and a stock and die. Do not
>>use hard copper tubing and sweated (soldered) fittings.
>>This suggestion is made for obvious safety reasons.
>>
>>Peace ~ Sir Edgar
>>øøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøø
>
>
> --
> I AM NOT PARANOID .. .. .. but EVERYONE thinks I am !! !! !!
>
> <<<__ Bob __>>>
>
>
Scott, you need to change your one-note rejoinder.
dave
Scott Cramer wrote:
> On 22 Dec 2003, Bay Area Dave spake unto rec.woodworking:
>
>
>>BULLCRAP! soldered copper fittings in an air system would only fail if
>>you are LESS than a MORON! Where do you come up with this alarmist BS,
>>anyway? If there was a leak at a fitting, you'd probably hear it
>>anyway. I'm no PRO at sweating fittings, but I did an entire shop with
>>copper that lasted 8 years and all my friends in the business used the
>>same methods to build their air systems. Don't pass Go, go directly to
>>Jail.
>
>
> Chew the peanuts a little finer, and they won't scratch as badly.
On 22 Dec 2003, Bay Area Dave spake unto rec.woodworking:
> BULLCRAP! soldered copper fittings in an air system would only fail if
> you are LESS than a MORON! Where do you come up with this alarmist BS,
> anyway? If there was a leak at a fitting, you'd probably hear it
> anyway. I'm no PRO at sweating fittings, but I did an entire shop with
> copper that lasted 8 years and all my friends in the business used the
> same methods to build their air systems. Don't pass Go, go directly to
> Jail.
Chew the peanuts a little finer, and they won't scratch as badly.
which is why I already recommended Type L...
Jon Dough wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 20:00:00 +0000, Brian Elfert wrote:
>
>
>>My stationary air compressor has a 1/2" NPT fitting for the output.
>>
>>I will be using copper pipe for my air piping. Should I use 1/2" or 3/4"
>>copper pipe for my main lines? The internal diameter of 1/2" copper pipe
>>seems awful small. (Yes, industry does use copper for air piping.)
>>
>>Brian Elfert
>
>
> Ok, I will throw my 2 cents worth in on what may be a bit off topic to
> you. I would not use copper. If you use a length of common high pressure
> air hose to connect your current tank to the air line it should dampen any
> air pressure surges and pump vibration besides eliminating the problems of
> hooking a solid line to a solid tank. But if you spray contact cement or
> some finishes the moisture in the air will react with the copper in the
> lines and cause contact cement in particular to chrystalize and fail. This
> is not an old wives tale and is a known issue for shops that do upholstery
> and plastic laminate work. However, if the air line is just used to
> service common air tools for machine work or automotive work it will work
> fine, though the thicker wall copper is recommended, along with drops and
> drains at low points in the line.
>
Brian Elfert wrote:
> "TeamCasa" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>
>>Brian, A word of caution, 100' of air line underground will trap and
>>collect a ton of water. If you must install it under ground, slope it the
>>same as you would a sewer line. At the end (low side) of the line build in
>>a drip leg and a way to discharge the water.
>
>
> I was wondering about that. I suppose I would have problems with the line
> freezing in the winter, as it gets way below 32F here. I have to run the
> line exposed 1/4 of the way as I'm not going to tunnel under the basement
> foundation and the garage.
>
> I thought if I put a good dessicant filter on the line I might be okay,
No no no no no ... nononono
God, No.
>>>>
That's what went through my mind when I read this.
Use a standard separator, not a separator/ filter, certainly not a
desiccant, where the air line comes out of the ground. And make it a big
separator. The condensate will lay in the line and the air will gurgle
through it bringing up droplets or until there is enough water to come
out in a surge. You'll need something big enough to catch it.
Don't use a desiccant drier as the first thing on the pipe unless your
into water soaked desiccant from the above stated reasons. If you did
you better have a very forgiving wife who doesn't mind having the
desiccant baked in her oven. Allot. Using a drier is a great idea but
you need something to catch water mass first.
I would suggest also putting a 'T' in the line after the ground and
before the air enters the separator and putting a ball valve on it. That
way when the line fills with water you can blow out the line. It should
be standard practice to blow the line before and after every period of use.
As long as the line slopes down until the low point is a couple of feet
under ground I would guess freezing shouldn't be a problem. OTOH I can
see where vapor would condense on the surface of initial few feet of
line above ground, depending on how bad assed cold your neck of the
woods gets.
>
> I'm starting to think another compressor in the shed might be my best
> option.
That has it's own issues.
--
Mark
N.E. Ohio
Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)
When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)
On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 00:14:03 GMT, Howard <[email protected]> brought
forth from the murky depths:
>Brian Elfert <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Could I run compressed air 100 feet underground to a shed and still get 8
>>CFM at 100 PSI? I'm trying to figure out if I need to buy a seperate
>>compressor.
>
>Probably not, due to a phenomenon known as head loss. However, you
>might be able to put an air tank on the end of the line in the shed,
>and get acceptable intermittent performance.
100' of 1/2" Sch40 steel pipe is good for 15cfm according to the
chart on Pg 632 of my Lee Valley copy of Handyman In-Your-Pocket.
0.2500cfs
==========================================================
I drank WHAT? + http://www.diversify.com
--Socrates + Web Application Programming
Brian Elfert <[email protected]> wrote:
>Could I run compressed air 100 feet underground to a shed and still get 8
>CFM at 100 PSI? I'm trying to figure out if I need to buy a seperate
>compressor.
Probably not, due to a phenomenon known as head loss. However, you
might be able to put an air tank on the end of the line in the shed,
and get acceptable intermittent performance.
--
Howard Lee Harkness
Texas Certified Concealed Handgun Instructor
www.CHL-TX.com
[email protected]
Low-cost Domain Registration and Hosting! www.Texas-Domains.com
On 21 Dec 2003 20:00:00 GMT, Brian Elfert <[email protected]> wrote:
>My stationary air compressor has a 1/2" NPT fitting for the output.
>
>I will be using copper pipe for my air piping. Should I use 1/2" or 3/4"
>copper pipe for my main lines? The internal diameter of 1/2" copper pipe
>seems awful small. (Yes, industry does use copper for air piping.)
>
>Brian Elfert
A larger diameter will provide more volume transfer and faster
recovery. That may or may not be important, depending on what tools
you plan to use. If you are not sure, use the 3/4".
On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 20:00:00 +0000, Brian Elfert wrote:
> My stationary air compressor has a 1/2" NPT fitting for the output.
>
> I will be using copper pipe for my air piping. Should I use 1/2" or 3/4"
> copper pipe for my main lines? The internal diameter of 1/2" copper pipe
> seems awful small. (Yes, industry does use copper for air piping.)
>
> Brian Elfert
Ok, I will throw my 2 cents worth in on what may be a bit off topic to
you. I would not use copper. If you use a length of common high pressure
air hose to connect your current tank to the air line it should dampen any
air pressure surges and pump vibration besides eliminating the problems of
hooking a solid line to a solid tank. But if you spray contact cement or
some finishes the moisture in the air will react with the copper in the
lines and cause contact cement in particular to chrystalize and fail. This
is not an old wives tale and is a known issue for shops that do upholstery
and plastic laminate work. However, if the air line is just used to
service common air tools for machine work or automotive work it will work
fine, though the thicker wall copper is recommended, along with drops and
drains at low points in the line.
"TeamCasa" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Brian, A word of caution, 100' of air line underground will trap and
> collect a ton of water. If you must install it under ground, slope it the
> same as you would a sewer line. At the end (low side) of the line build
in
> a drip leg and a way to discharge the water.
Good point. Consider a separator before the line goes underground. There
are cartridge type filters available.
Ed
<<<___ Bob ___>>> thus spake:
>I HOPE there's not a safety issue with using sweated copper for air .. .. ..
>I just plumbed my whole shop with it !! !! !!
>
>What's the danger ?? ?? ??
Not NEAR the danger of using PVC.
Copper generally splits open, PVC explodes - sending near supersonic
shrapnel everywhere.
Greg G.
> PVC explodes - sending near supersonic
>shrapnel everywhere.
I have always heard this but I would sure like to see someone demonstrate it.
I tried to make a big firecracker with 1/2" PVC and smokless powder when I was
young and dumb. It just split open and none of it really turned to shrapnel.
That was a lot more than 100PSI.
I imagine a decent spud gun is above 100PSI and we don't hear about them
> sending near supersonic
>shrapnel everywhere.
On 22 Dec 2003 06:41:22 GMT, [email protected] (Greg) wrote:
>> PVC explodes - sending near supersonic
>>shrapnel everywhere.
>
>I have always heard this but I would sure like to see someone demonstrate it.
>I tried to make a big firecracker with 1/2" PVC and smokless powder when I was
>young and dumb. It just split open and none of it really turned to shrapnel.
>That was a lot more than 100PSI.
>I imagine a decent spud gun is above 100PSI and we don't hear about them
> > sending near supersonic
>>shrapnel everywhere.
A lot of PVC is not UV stabilized. It can get brittle with age and
sunlight exposure. There are also different types of PVC, in both
plastic formulation and pipe construction. My PVC DC piping is
clearly marked "Not for Pressure" all down the side of each tube.
OSHA forbids PVC pipe under pressure. The 'wreck's FAQ has a link to
the actual OSHA article about PVC air pipes.
FWIW, installing iron or copper air pipe is really easy. Since you're
using flex hose to the tools and compressor, you only need to get into
the vicinity. No precision plumbing is necessary.
Barry
Greg thus spake:
>> PVC explodes - sending near supersonic
>>shrapnel everywhere.
>
>I have always heard this but I would sure like to see someone demonstrate it.
>I tried to make a big firecracker with 1/2" PVC and smokless powder when I was
>young and dumb. It just split open and none of it really turned to shrapnel.
>That was a lot more than 100PSI.
All I can relate is the story of a friend who owns a print shop. They
have large presses and such that are larger than a bus. He decided to
go cheap and install 3/4" PVC pipe for the air feeds - standard 120psi
air supply. It exploded several times in various places until he
ripped it out and replaced it with copper because a worker was sent to
the ER because of flying plastic. I believe it involves long term
fatigue cracks in the pipe. OSHA has published several booklets on
the how's and why's of NOT using PVC for air supplies.
Greg G.
"Greg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> I know this is the rule and the reasons why PVC might be dangerous, I just
> don't understand how 120PSI can make 470 lb rated PVC "suddenly explode".
PVC is a lot different than other nonplastic materials Ratings for liquid
that it is designed to carry is different that compressed gasses. Liquid at
470 psi is not going to expand very much at all, but a gas (like air) will
expand in volume greatly when released.
Copper or iron pipe does not shatter like plastics. They may leak but will
crack or pin hole. Plastic just "lets go" when stressed.
The stresses can be different also. Plastic will degrade from UV exposure
Plastic can become brittle and break like glass, and that is the biggest
problem..
Ed
"<<<___ Bob ___>>>" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I HOPE there's not a safety issue with using sweated copper for air .. ..
..
> I just plumbed my whole shop with it !! !! !!
>
> What's the danger ?? ?? ??
>
There is no danger of sweated copper pipes bursting! We often pressure test
copper pipe at 300PSI with nitrogen. Copper in R22 air conditioning systems
can see 400 PSI with no problems. Systems running R410 can see pressures
over 600 PSI.
If done correctly there is no danger. Any piping system done INCORRECTly is
dangerous!
Greg
>Copper in R22 air conditioning systems
>can see 400 PSI with no problems. Systems running R410 can see pressures
>over 600 PSI.
... Also with lots of vibration, heat and oil. A failure from a freon line is
going to be a lot more explosive than air.
Any advice that starts out saying a compression ring and ferrule is superior to
a sweated fitting is suspect from the outset. An HVAC contractor would never
use a jackleg device like a compression fitting
mere O-rings contain freon on trillions of vehicles, Greg. A freon line
doesn't necessarily have more pressure than a 175PSI air system.
Depends on if it is the low or high side and if it is running or not.
Different pressures in different "sides" of the system.
dave
Greg wrote:
>>Copper in R22 air conditioning systems
>>can see 400 PSI with no problems. Systems running R410 can see pressures
>>over 600 PSI.
>
>
> ... Also with lots of vibration, heat and oil. A failure from a freon line is
> going to be a lot more explosive than air.
> Any advice that starts out saying a compression ring and ferrule is superior to
> a sweated fitting is suspect from the outset. An HVAC contractor would never
> use a jackleg device like a compression fitting
I've taken over that miscreant's mind! :)
dave
Greg wrote:
> Bay Area Dave said:
>
>
>>mere O-rings contain freon on trillions of vehicles, Greg. A freon line
>>doesn't necessarily have more pressure than a 175PSI air system.
>>Depends on if it is the low or high side and if it is running or not.
>>Different pressures in different "sides" of the system.
>
>
> Hmmm... Correct, to the point, non-inflamatory...
>
> HEY, MISTER! What did you do with Dave. <g>
>
>
> Greg G.
yes, you are misunderstanding my earlier post. As you are aware, there
is less pressure on a non-functioning ac system than a 175 PSI air
system. The high and low sides equalize. During operation, the high side
can go up to 200+, depending on the, Freon type, the ambient
temperature, the effectiveness of the condenser fan, etc. the low side
is WAY less than any compressed air system. In auto A/C it's around
30#, give or take. I'm not sure of the exact low side pressure in
commercial refrigeration as I've never worked with it; only auto A/C.
dave
Greg O wrote:
> "Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>A freon line
>>doesn't necessarily have more pressure than a 175PSI air system.
>>Depends on if it is the low or high side and if it is running or not.
>>
>
>
> ??
> Am I misunderstanding you?
> Residential and commercial AC systems can and will see pressures over 300
> PSI in regular service. More depending on the type of system or if there are
> problems with the system.
> I have never seen a burst copper AC line. A cracks perhaps, or worn through
> from vibration and the line rubbing on something, but never a burst line.
> Greg
>
Bay Area Dave said:
>mere O-rings contain freon on trillions of vehicles, Greg. A freon line
>doesn't necessarily have more pressure than a 175PSI air system.
>Depends on if it is the low or high side and if it is running or not.
>Different pressures in different "sides" of the system.
Hmmm... Correct, to the point, non-inflamatory...
HEY, MISTER! What did you do with Dave. <g>
Greg G.
Greg O said:
>
>"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> A freon line
>> doesn't necessarily have more pressure than a 175PSI air system.
>> Depends on if it is the low or high side and if it is running or not.
>
>??
>Am I misunderstanding you?
>Residential and commercial AC systems can and will see pressures over 300
>PSI in regular service. More depending on the type of system or if there are
>problems with the system.
Dave was talking automobile AC, but applicable to others as well.
Pressure (High) side, yes - 300PSI+. Suction (Low) side - somewhere
around 30-50PSI. I think he was being pedantic about the difference
between high and low side pressures - both of which are present in an
AC system.
>I have never seen a burst copper AC line. A cracks perhaps, or worn through
>from vibration and the line rubbing on something, but never a burst line.
Agreed. I HAVE seen auto AC lines burst - the rubber ones. And the
occasional metal tubing failure, both copper and aluminum, from
fatigue and abrasion.
Just my 2 cents,
Greg G.
right on.
dave
Greg wrote:
> Greg O said:
>
>>"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>A freon line
>>>doesn't necessarily have more pressure than a 175PSI air system.
>>>Depends on if it is the low or high side and if it is running or not.
>>
>>??
>>Am I misunderstanding you?
>>Residential and commercial AC systems can and will see pressures over 300
>>PSI in regular service. More depending on the type of system or if there are
>>problems with the system.
>
>
> Dave was talking automobile AC, but applicable to others as well.
> Pressure (High) side, yes - 300PSI+. Suction (Low) side - somewhere
> around 30-50PSI. I think he was being pedantic about the difference
> between high and low side pressures - both of which are present in an
> AC system.
>
>
>>I have never seen a burst copper AC line. A cracks perhaps, or worn through
>
>>from vibration and the line rubbing on something, but never a burst line.
>
> Agreed. I HAVE seen auto AC lines burst - the rubber ones. And the
> occasional metal tubing failure, both copper and aluminum, from
> fatigue and abrasion.
>
> Just my 2 cents,
>
> Greg G.
"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> A freon line
> doesn't necessarily have more pressure than a 175PSI air system.
> Depends on if it is the low or high side and if it is running or not.
>
??
Am I misunderstanding you?
Residential and commercial AC systems can and will see pressures over 300
PSI in regular service. More depending on the type of system or if there are
problems with the system.
I have never seen a burst copper AC line. A cracks perhaps, or worn through
from vibration and the line rubbing on something, but never a burst line.
Greg
"Bay Area Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> yes, you are misunderstanding my earlier post.
Okey-dokey!
Greg
Brian, A word of caution, 100' of air line underground will trap and
collect a ton of water. If you must install it under ground, slope it the
same as you would a sewer line. At the end (low side) of the line build in
a drip leg and a way to discharge the water.
A sperate smaller reserve air tank wil go a long way to help with head loss.
Dave
"Brian Elfert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> writes:
>
> >Depends on what you want as a final result. The 1/2" line will carry
more
> >air than the tool can use of the compressor can put out. I don't have my
> >reference book here, but that size will pass an incredible amount of cfm.
>
> If I needed to supply 8 CFM at 100 PSI, would 1/2" copper be good enough?
>
> Seperate issue:
>
> Could I run compressed air 100 feet underground to a shed and still get 8
> CFM at 100 PSI? I'm trying to figure out if I need to buy a seperate
> compressor.
>
> Brian Elfert
BULLCRAP! soldered copper fittings in an air system would only fail if
you are LESS than a MORON! Where do you come up with this alarmist BS,
anyway? If there was a leak at a fitting, you'd probably hear it
anyway. I'm no PRO at sweating fittings, but I did an entire shop with
copper that lasted 8 years and all my friends in the business used the
same methods to build their air systems. Don't pass Go, go directly to
Jail.
dave
Sir Edgar wrote:
> Go to: http://air.ingersoll-rand.com/AST/common.htm
>
> This is an extract from their article:
>
>
>>snip< Nearly all of the compressed air system manufacturers recommend
>
> that customers do not use plastic piping or soldered copper fittings as
> discharge piping for compressed air systems. Plastic piping is not
> recommended because some types might react with compressor fluids,
> soften due to heat or shatter due to pressure or pulsation of the
> compressor. Soldered, copper fittings will eventually work loose due to
> pulsating caused by the compressed air system >snip<
>
> I rest my case.
>
> Peace~Sr Edgar
> øøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøøø
>
"Brian Elfert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> My stationary air compressor has a 1/2" NPT fitting for the output.
>
> I will be using copper pipe for my air piping. Should I use 1/2" or 3/4"
> copper pipe for my main lines? The internal diameter of 1/2" copper pipe
> seems awful small. (Yes, industry does use copper for air piping.)
>
> Brian Elfert
Depends on what you want as a final result. The 1/2" line will carry more
air than the tool can use of the compressor can put out. I don't have my
reference book here, but that size will pass an incredible amount of cfm.
The 3/4" line will hold more volume, increasing the total storage capacity
for the system. You could go to a 3" or 6" line, but that is not very cost
effective for a small shop. We use 4" at work but our air use is much
different than a single tool. The large pipe holds a reservoir of air for
when the "injectors" we use to fill molds go off. Maybe 36 of them for a
blast of 10 seconds or so. An air wrench will never take that much from the
system. Look at the size of the hole in the fitting. You never need more
than that.
Ed
[email protected]
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome